The Class choice that Tanks the most? Commando vs Bear

[ratava]

Ok, I'm not a big fan of playing a TANK class. For me this is the class that "tanks" to the bottom of my list the most. :eek:

I'd like to know how many other players like the Tank-Bear in PL and want to play the equivalent COMMANDO in Star Legends? And why and what they want to see improved?? :confused:

Looking at the Ursan Warrior Bear-Tank in PL for eg:

Reference: General Guide on the Ursan (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?19729-Short-General-Guide-on-Ursan-Stat-Skills)


A: Self-target buffs:

(1)Rage: The main source of damage for any Ursan.
(2) Iron Blood: The definition of tanking, this is a skill you should try and have up AT ALL TIMES. Essential for chewing up damage, this, in combination with your large health pool and h/s regen, should keep you shielded from the onslaught of mobs you should be trying to control.
(3) Evade: The perfect counter part to Iron Blood, this skill adds a sufficient amount of dodge to keep you in a ninja like state.

B: Target Debuffs/Aggro:

(1) (AOE) Beckon
(2) "SMASH" Combo
(3) (AOE) Taunt
(4) (AOE) Hell scream
(5) "TERROR" Combo
(6) Crushing Blow

C: Damage skills:

(1) Super Mega Slash(stun)
(2) Vengeful Slash(knock-back)
(3) Crippling Slash(root).
(4) (AOE) Stomp:
(5) "SMASH" Combo: Works in conjunction with Beckon. Must be Beckon + Stomp.)

Summary:

Order: Self-target buffs, target/aggro, then damage skills.

It follows the order of buff, debuff and then damage that other classes use.

But what I don't like about the Bear is that in the pure form with melee damage it is very static profession involving drawing mobs and not having to move a lot ie taunting enemies.

Problem 1: Tanking and taunting crowd control (CC) seem the most basic way to control the mobs and not sure how much use this is in PvP (never used tanks?). Ie threat levels and taunting seems boring to me when it's more fun using skills and kiting mobs ie movement and positioning are important. Taunting does the job automatically.
Problem 2: 1 tank plus another tank doing the same thing seems redundant ie what I'm doing does not seem very individual. ie tank & spank the poor bear just soaks up the damage and aggro is very passive.
Problem 3: A pure tank because they can be high toughness need to be lower damage hence again they have less interesting options except grinding a mob. This seems to take a long time going solo, is it slower levelling overall?
Problem 4: Are tanks shafted in PvP compared to other professions?
Problem 5: Because skills are so defensive/passive/reactive... they definitely don't look as graphically cool as the other professions skills in PL?

Solutions for Commando:

(1) Less taunting emphasis and more Skills used to root, split mobs and stun mobs etc that need to be carefully used?
(2) Maybe armor slot that is only effective against some types of attack eg maybe good against a flame-thrower but low on a laser, hence different tanks required in combat?
(3) More shield skills to protect party and dodge-roll for the commando to reduce damage? :cool:

Just some ideas to kick off discussion on the COMMANDO-TANK... What do you like the most about the tank in PL and what do you think could be improved in Star Legends? Consider the tank could have big guns this time! :cool:

EDIT: Oops: I edited this out, thanks for the heads-up Moogerfooger(!): I AM USELESS AT THIS PROFESSION!! More experienced OPINIONS REQUIRED!!

[Moogerfooger]

Your condescension towards bears is pretty obvious, although you may not have meant it that way. And "not having to move a lot"? You obviously never played with a skilled bear to be making a fairly ignorant assumption like that. If you ever played with some of the better bears like Mr.Wallace or EllyIdol, they are scooting all over the place non-stop, in order to beckon/taunt/stomp ahead of the rest of the party, set up their own combo at the same time, and take the heat for us archers and mages.

Sorry, don't even want to think about the rest of your post due to what I think is an over-simplified and partially incorrect assessment of the warrior/tank class. I do like some of your Commando solutions, but to diss bears like that is going to rub a lot of people (me included) the wrong way, maybe.

[Ellyidol]

I'm hoping, because I definitely will be rolling a bear type toon in B*, that when you see a tank, it really is a tank.

Take for example now, TBH I find the bears biggest use to be Beckon, and not actual tanking. Yes it can tank, but only a little more so than differently built birds/mages. Just like what Moog said above, I'm more of movement than actual tanking in PL, which is quite opposite of what a tank does no? Didn't take any insult though, I'd agree that bears are underrated in a way :p

I'm hoping that if I go down a tank route, I will be needed to tank and not just pull mobs together to make it easier for the group to kill, which is actually manageable without a bear (a 4 bird/1 mage setup, or the like).

On a similar note, if we are expected to fully tank, I would expect some sort of single target healing from the support classes too. Right now, the only Heal in PL is from a mages AoE heal. Sure, there can still be an AoE heal, but it would defeat the purpose of having a pure tank out there if you'd still need to get up close just to heal. Which brings me to two additional points:

I hope that I wouldn't need to resort to going into a "dex" type bear or commando in B* just to do damage. I'd hope there would be some sort of split paths to take, tank or damage - which is pretty standard in most games.

On a similar note, all classes should split into opposites paths, IMO. Mages - Full support/Full damage. Archers - Full single target/Full AoE. Warriors - Full Damage/Full Tank. But this calls for another topic :)

[ratava]

Your condescension towards bears is pretty obvious

1. No condescension. Controversial yes!
2. My opinion is that Tanks is the most boring class. Are there other tanks out there that can suggest why they like it? Need a lot of convincing here. <.<
3. HOW WOULD THEY LIKE TO SEE IMPROVEMENTS or problems of tanks in PL changed?

/discuss

[ratava]

I hope that I wouldn't need to resort to going into a "dex" type bear or commando in B* just to do damage. I'd hope there would be some sort of split paths to take, tank or damage - which is pretty standard in most games.

On a similar note, all classes should split into opposites paths, IMO. Mages - Full support/Full damage. Archers - Full single target/Full AoE. Warriors - Full Damage/Full Tank. But this calls for another topic :)

Right so TANKING needs more actual tanking? & SKILL PATHS for choosing how you customize your playstyle to suit your preferred role?

Single-target heal you think is important for the healer so the Tank can SERIOUSLY tank without *ahem* "tanking"! :p

[StompArtist]

Maybe my opinion diverges from the mainstream thinking but there is no such thing as a tank class in PL. There are bears/birds/elves with different skills BUT attribute allocation is entirely up to the player. If you do not want to tank but enjoy the crowd control skills, for example, you can make a dex bear with a bow and there you go on your path to a Bear-Archer's life. Choose a class for it's skills not for the most common use in game. :D

I am expecting a similar approach in Blackstar, I only hope they will make it even clearer that the choices are yours and that there is no set "job" for a particular "race".

[Ellyidol]

Right so TANKING needs more actual tanking? & SKILL PATHS for choosing how you customize your playstyle to suit your preferred role?

Single-target heal you think is important for the healer so the Tank can SERIOUSLY tank without *ahem* "tanking"! :p

Yeah, more actual tanking. At the moment, we seem more like meat-shields than actual tanks. IMO, tanks would mean they can take the damage way more than any other class can, and I mean way way more. However, trade off is it can get pretty slow killing the mob for the tank alone.

The way I see it now, in PL, there's a very thin line between an actual tank (bear) versus any other character than can put on strength armours. It might not really be a bear problem, more of an armour type problem.

And yes, I'd definitely want to stick to the conventional enormous or cool looking 2H Laser Sword or something to do damage, no, to do the best damage. Like I said, at the moment if you want to do the best damage, you'd have to use the dex sets. Although I know that only stats are needed to wear armours or dual spec-ing is what makes PL unique, I do think that the more conventional method of armour segregating would solve a lot of problems.

Highest armour type would be warrior only, hence make the true tanks actually shine. The next type of armour tier would go to archers, then the last (softest) to mages. Add in the possibility of different skill paths for each class, and I'd think that the bear problem would be solved.

It might seem that going down this path to the more conventional MMORPG type is drawing away from the uniqueness of PL, but after all, isn't SL (Star Legends) an entirely different game?

[ratava]

Maybe my opinion diverges from the mainstream thinking but there is no such thing as a tank class in PL. There are bears/birds/elves with different skills BUT attribute allocation is entirely up to the player. If you do not want to tank but enjoy the crowd control skills, for example, you can make a dex bear with a bow and there you go on your path to a Bear-Archer's life. Choose a class for it's skills not for the most common use in game. :D

I am expecting a similar approach in Blackstar, I only hope they will make it even clearer that the choices are yours and that there is no set "job" for a particular "race".

Interesting point of view... keep the answers coming everyone.

So "bow-bear" eg for a ranged-damage CC sorta class then? I never went Hybrid with my bears as lost interest with the slow solo, not very cool graphical skills and I suppose feeling like a PUNCH-BAG without any "mega" killer move that would make me feel happy. :(

At least with the Mage you can even Tank a bit even with full INT eg buff+shield+deploy some skills+knockback then retreat and heal!! That's what I like about the other classes, they have some neat variety, cool skills and oc a lot of movement.

What about other Bear players? What do you like/dislike the most about this class and how Tanking can be improved? :confused:

/waiting for more BEARS/TANKS to post and then replying again ;)

[Moogerfooger]

1. No condescension. Controversial yes!
2. My opinion is that Tanks is the most boring class. Are there other tanks out there that can suggest why they like it? Need a lot of convincing here. <.<
3. HOW WOULD THEY LIKE TO SEE IMPROVEMENTS or problems of tanks in PL changed?

/discuss

Just because YOU think they are boring, does not mean that dozens of people who have obviously spent a lot of time playing and perfecting their "tank" skills think the same. My main is an archer, but I also played a warrior set up (as much as one can in PL) to tank or set up dual str/dex (which still allowed me to tank when I wanted, or switch to Bow-bear if there was another bear so I could deal damage too) all the way to 56, and I had a ton of fun setting up mobs for my mage and archer buddies, keeping bosses aggrod the best I could, stunning bosses with beckon and stomp, trying to pull of Mega Combos.

Have you played a bear extensively? If not....what credibility do you have other than observing other bears? If you have, I will respect your opinion, although I disagree completely with your assessment.

Elly is on the right track (and I know where he got that idea, haha) about being able to set each class up on different paths with different skill trees....e.g. being able to go "Battle (Damage) Warrior" or "Guardian (Tank) Warrior" with independent skill trees.

[CrimsonTider]

I'll chime in....

I still consider myself new to the game (tho i've been around for 6+ months.) I began as a full strength bear and stayed that way til I was 56. I loved coming into a game and taking the damage, rounding up the mobs, and keeping the aggrieve on me. But I will be honest, I had always wished I could deal more damage. Then, I read Elly's guide and received a great explanation from MrWallace in game on how to dual spec and things began to change. Because of the increased dex, I dealt more damage and was still able to "tank" efficiently.

As my skills continued to improve, I began running more dex. Again, I noticed I dealt even more range and my skills seemed to be more fluid: especially my beckon/stomp combo. About two weeks ago, I made the switch to dull dex. I am a slight bit more squishy, but I feel my game is much more "needed" now. I deal weapon damage equal to birds, but can still tank (yes I still use taunt.)

Sadly, I am seeing a growing number of bears who do not know the meaning of tanking and have poor use of their skills. And this makes it frustrating for alot of players. Many question the use for full strength bears.

As the others have mentioned, my hope for B* is to see tanks/commandos who can truly tank bit at least have a skill/weapon set to deal more damage without having to use stats from another class. I plan on being a part of this class as I love to be a helper.

Not sure if any of this helps but please know that those of us who love our craft take great pride in what we do. Sadly, there are very few of us who actually know what we are doing.

[ratava]

I am expecting a similar approach in Blackstar, I only hope they will make it even clearer that the choices are yours and that there is no set "job" for a particular "race".

Ok, this might lead into Elly's suggestions... even though initially they appear perhaps opposite ideas...


Yeah, more actual tanking. At the moment, we seem more like meat-shields than actual tanks. IMO, tanks would mean they can take the damage way more than any other class can, and I mean way way more. However, trade off is it can get pretty slow killing the mob for the tank alone.

-snip-I do think that the more conventional method of armour segregating would solve a lot of problems.

Highest armour type would be warrior only, hence make the true tanks actually shine. The next type of armour tier would go to archers, then the last (softest) to mages. Add in the possibility of different skill paths for each class, and I'd think that the bear problem would be solved.

It might seem that going down this path to the more conventional MMORPG type is drawing away from the uniqueness of PL, but after all, isn't SL (Star Legends) an entirely different game?

Yeah it is really good having the Hybrid and dual-build possibility in PL. However as you say for a true tank much greater armor or a single-target heal is required then combine with a skill tree to spec one way or the other?

1. This is good but only part way to improving the experience. Eg what about some sort of armor or force-field option that bounces incoming firepower back rather than just giving brute stats, that way you tank but you time when you tank then vulnerable then damage then tank or other etc and so on?

2. Would collision detection be needed ie a tank gets in the way of mobs physically to actually tank? That way replaces the taunt skill with player movement and position.*

*(note to Moog: I know PL Tank does a bit of movement already but uses the skill which a) does not graphically look flashy and also is b) area-independent due to skill AoE radius ie tanks would want to say to team-mates, lets back up run to a door bottle-kneck or such so I can block more effectively... improved player gameplay?)

3. I'll summarize after the next post... excuse the "multi-quote-splitting" 1-off :banana:


Just because YOU think they are boring, does not mean that dozens of people who have obviously spent a lot of time playing and perfecting their "tank" skills think the same.

Maybe the OP comes across too heavy on bears? But x1 opinion only... I'm sure I used enough "?"s and :)'s ?


My main is an archer, but I also played a warrior set up (as much as one can in PL) to tank or set up dual str/dex (which still allowed me to tank when I wanted, or switch to Bow-bear if there was another bear so I could deal damage too)-snip-

This is really interesting and add to the above^


Have you played a bear extensively?-snip-

See OP.

But the reason I start this thread is:

a) How does my experience as a "Tank"/Bear compare to others ie I am put off at the early stages: Does it get better, are lots of others playing Tank?

b) I see a few comments chipping in on being Engineer or Operative but not as many on Commando (small sample true) but thought this class would be most challenging to look into. :)

In fact my experience/information is v low with tanks and we need experienced Tank players to give their ideas about the class.


Elly is on the right track (and I know where he got that idea, haha) about being able to set each class up on different paths with different skill trees....e.g. being able to go "Battle (Damage) Warrior" or "Guardian (Tank) Warrior" with independent skill trees.

Yup so in your opinion ;) you liked the ability to change your role if another tank was present... that helps answer Problem 2. :cool:

My suggestion to Problem 1 was collision-detection -> works well with tanks and more player input than just taunt?

& Elly suggested more toughness and skill trees for Problem 3 and I agree on skill trees but less so on toughness because your damage must be lower... however as you noted and Stomp also BEING able to swap around builds helps.

tl;dr: Some ideas on combat and role of the tank, sorry for wall of text, all just x1 opinion. Please discuss what YOU WANT from the COMMANDO!

[Ellyidol]

I don't wanna quote again to further extend the scrolling down, so will just address :)

Based on what you're suggesting, force-fields, collision, etc, I think we're better off just waiting for the game to happen first, then make the comments :)

Because right now, if lets say force-fields are in play, I'd sway away from using a tank and just focus on using my force-fields wisely. The collision effect is very tough, IMO. Even on a PC game, the only collision they were actually able to do was for movement, no standing on top of each other, and not crossing each other while moving. Damage was still target related.

At this point, those were pretty much some of my expectations. Some of them, well, reserved and the comparisons not appropriate here :)

[ratava]

I'll chime in.... -snip-
As the others have mentioned, my hope for B* is to see tanks/commandos who can truly tank bit at least have a skill/weapon set to deal more damage without having to use stats from another class. I plan on being a part of this class as I love to be a helper.

Not sure if any of this helps but please know that those of us who love our craft take great pride in what we do. Sadly, there are very few of us who actually know what we are doing.

Cool, thanks for sharing. So definitely seems a bit tricky to get the hang of tanking? And wanting a damage option also?


I don't wanna quote again to further extend the scrolling down, so will just address :)

Based on what you're suggesting, force-fields, collision, etc, I think we're better off just waiting for the game to happen first, then make the comments :)

Because right now, if lets say force-fields are in play, I'd sway away from using a tank and just focus on using my force-fields wisely. The collision effect is very tough, IMO. Even on a PC game, the only collision they were actually able to do was for movement, no standing on top of each other, and not crossing each other while moving. Damage was still target related.

At this point, those were pretty much some of my expectations. Some of them, well, reserved and the comparisons not appropriate here :)

Well I knew it was pushing the boat out suggesting collision-detection :D But how else can tanks really experience tank gameplay more than just being a meat-shield? Perhaps taunting/extra-toughness are still the best options? I think a force-field skill could work ie fire out of, not into or just a barrier to critters moving into!

SUMMARY so far:

So what about weapons replacing skills if you click on them... then within them you have access to skills associated with that weapon that change your gameplay BUT each weapon selection has a GCD on using the other weapons? So you are stuck with your choice for a period of time? That way you could use a weapon to tank more, damage more or heal/support more eg force-field etc?

Skill trees could decide what skills you spec in your weapons maybe? That way everyone gets cool skills (solves Problem 5) and potentially can create hybrid roles or pure roles but are changeable on-the-fly? PvP would also be good for this, does this solve Problem 4? Try and work out what weapons your opponent is using and skill-tree they are favoring? No idea how attributes could help?

Conclusion: being able to do your team-role but not be restricted by it if conditions are not right for it eg another tank present, so switch to more damage or a healer is missing so talk to team-mates and switch to [support/healer/buff/debuff]? It's just a bit more intuitive than swapping builds and could be added gameplay of deciding which weapons to use know what skills you need and what you
miss out on for a period of time (cool-down)?

[Baked-Potato]

1. No condescension. Controversial yes!
2. My opinion is that Tanks is the most boring class. Are there other tanks out there that can suggest why they like it? Need a lot of convincing here. <.<
3. HOW WOULD THEY LIKE TO SEE IMPROVEMENTS or problems of tanks in PL changed?

/discuss

To each their own (: You find Tanks boring, and I find Archers and Mages to be boring. I started with a full STR bear and will end with a full STR bear. Although, like some said, there is very little actual tanking in the game, but that doesn't bother me to much. Its fun to me to run around and gather mobs against a wall, or pin them into a corner and run on to the next group of mobs while the rest of the party obliterates them. Bears take the most skill to master imo, therefore making it more of a challenge and more fun.

When I read you said bears don't move a lot, I actually laughed. Good bears are constantly moving and shouldn't really ever be still or in one area for a long time (unless they are helping with a mini boss/boss/prime mob). Once the mobs are pinned in a corner or against a wall, the tank should be moving on.

As for actual tanking, there's no need for it in PL atm. Mages and archers can take damage from a group of mobs or bosses and be fine while dealing way more damage than a pure tank can. They way to fix this is to let the bear gain and hold aggro efficiently and increase the damage bosses deal. This makes mages and archers more squishy and catious of just running up to a boss and start skill smashing.

So in the end I love tanks for their amount of skill required to master, their ability of crowd control and the feeling of helping clear a map in record time. As for the problems, make it so other toons can't tank and need one in the group to survive.

[ratava]

1. To each their own (: -snip-

2. When I read you said bears don't move a lot, I actually laughed.-snip-

3. As for the problems, make it so other toons can't tank and need one in the group to survive.

Really interesting comments. ;)

1. Yes my main is an archer (usually like dps, I like the run-away classes! Suits me.) but in PL I like the Mage the most because they have such versatility and awesome looking skills. I put this thread in the negative to stir up some thoughts. I'd like to see how I can enjoy the Tank role or at least know why I do not like it! ^ ^

2. I am a noob using the bear and you spotted it :). But the Tank is often the hardest profession to use, as you say. Do you think this means less players play the tank overall in PL?

3. Yup so others more squishy or tank more hard-school but that creates more dependence on tank and that makes it harder for pugs and random parties of 5 if eg tank or healer don't show up!?

Some sort of build flexibility is needed:

1) Roles are needed but classes have skill-build flexibility to change roles perhaps part of the combat mechanic?
2) Tanks need to tank but also players want to damage eg if they are solo-ing.
3) More cool skills wanted for tanks?
4) How can players who don't know how to tank very well (hardest role?) find the class more user-friendly to learn?
5) Are pure tanks at a disadvantage in pvp?

[Irconfuzed]

I've always played the tank class in MMOs. I have to admit I was let down by the bear in PL. I still play him, but for the first time my main is a mage. In my past experience, I enjoyed being known as a "good" tank. Its easy to spot the noobs who are new to this type of game and have no understanding of class roles, but bears just aren't vital in PL in the tank role.
As for the old complaints of "I suck in PvP as a tank", or "I can't solo"....that's the trade off we've always made. And its always seemed fair to me. Maybe in B* we can have a good old fashioned tank and we'll be needed.
If not, i'll be trying a dps class again...

[maddogcharlie]

Stompartist
There are bears/birds/elves with different skills
....................its official from the man himself - bears/birds/squirrels http://www.rescuetec.org/html/../assets/applets/squirrel.wma(Gary on the Podcast)

Baked-Potato
As for the problems, make it so other toons can't tank and need one in the group to survive.
GREAT discussion btw everyone, Baked's quote makes sense, the other classes ability to progress in missions should be very difficult without the Commando.

[ratava]

I've always played the tank class in MMOs. I have to admit I was let down by the bear in PL. I still play him, but for the first time my main is a mage. In my past experience, I enjoyed being known as a "good" tank. Its easy to spot the noobs who are new to this type of game and have no understanding of class roles, but bears just aren't vital in PL in the tank role.
As for the old complaints of "I suck in PvP as a tank", or "I can't solo"....that's the trade off we've always made. And its always seemed fair to me. Maybe in B* we can have a good old fashioned tank and we'll be needed.
If not, i'll be trying a dps class again...

Awesome, thanks for sharing your views, so true that a good Tank is very useful but hard to master? :)

But let me try to be antagonistic for sec, the way I see it is that the problem is that PL and guess SL/*L/B* (!) is very "pick-up-n-play" friendly so group trinity needs to be more flexible ie not restrictive because:

1. You could have no tank class in a pug.
2. Jumble of classes needs to be workable at least if not optimal
3. Some players will not be so aware of the Trinity roles and so some lee-way needed if players want to role a class for the rp/non-mechanic aspect of the class eg cool looking, selection of gear & maybe a story in *L etc.
4. Solo play is always important if your friends are not online/you feel like a single-player experience for a break or farming etc.
5. PvP only has 3 classes so for it to have depth need to make all classes rock-paper-scissors to make it more interesting for team-work or at least T = H = D with different playstyles so it's even and about know our class inside out to win...

I see where you are coming from :cool:, for Tanks role to be enhanced somehow, but it's tricky to avoid creating new problems. Can you see an answer I've totally missed? *scratches head*


-snip-
Baked-Potato
GREAT discussion btw everyone, Baked's quote makes sense, the other classes ability to progress in missions should be very difficult without the Commando.

This is true in terms of perhaps making the Commando more Tank and therefore more rewarding and essential to CONTROL mobs.

ie teams should if it's a hard run:

1. regroup + buff
2. Tanks charge! First = PULL MOBS
3. debuff
4. damage
5. heal/support

etc

But this may make the Tank role more important and satisfactory but it creates new problems potentially:

a) More Pressure on the Tank player -> harder for inexperienced players/pugs that don't use the above^
b) Dependence on Tanks is a double-edged sword -> If they don't turn up or if they are tougher then they can't be replaced or the healer requires a single-target mega-heal but if THEY then don't turn up and Tank does, Tank is still toast!

Maybe Tank just needs better ways of pulling mobs or blocking mobs as well as good damage to make use of those skills with slightly better armor options/toughness so that the TANK is more dependable at doing this than other classes because they have fewer control skills, cc, not as durable & need to run away/around mobs more often ?

[Irconfuzed]

My attraction to the tank classes has always been the fact that they're needed. Not just needed but every group needs a "good" tank. Once you master becoming like glue and an aggro magnet, you can quickly get the reputation of a good tank and you're never short on invites.
But it's not for everybody. It takes a lot of research and talking to the veterans of the class to learn the proper way to tank. I think a lot of new players get discouraged early on and end up rolling dps spec'd warriors...which is fine too. A good ARMs spec warrior in WoW could do massive damage in PVE and still be a powerhouse in PVP.
I like the idea of not forcing a warrior into the tank role. A lot of new players like the look of the big armored warrior, but they don't realize the role they're choosing. Allowing them to choose skills and stats that make them a viable dps class is helpful for this reason.
I hope the commando in B* will give us this type of option and still let those of us who enjoy the boring meat shield role shine while we show off our tanking skills.
What do we know about the class for sure at this point?

[ratava]

-snip-
I hope the commando in B* will give us this type of option and still let those of us who enjoy the boring meat shield role shine while we show off our tanking skills.
What do we know about the class for sure at this point?

There's been some g8 posts by ppl and this is certainly one of them.

1. Needed class when played well.
2. Research and collaboration with exp. players required to improve at tanking
3. Very gear dependent?, may have low dps if pure tank
4. Deceptive and difficult for new players: Cool gear but -> tanking role: First in, Last out! :eek:

Yeah I hope the class has variety of playstyles, maybe being able to switch weapons that enable tanking/cc skills or damage skills etc? I'll be sure to try out the Commando but will likely start with Operative.

We really know zip on all classes so far. One nugget of info only exists I believe:


Blackstar will definitely have a global cool-down. It will probably have other skill-class cool-downs as well. Like all of your "Holographic" stuff may have a cool-down and all of your "Amp-Light" will have its own, etc. We did a build of Blackstar where the DPS character (called the "Operative") could use a target debuff to get different combo results with three different classes of weapon. It was very compelling - totally different from PL in a great way (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?19023-Blackstar-FAQ-%28-What-we-know-as-we-find-out-%29)

But we may see first footage at E3 so keep your eyes peeled on all 3 classes. :cool:

[Irconfuzed]

Awesome, thanks for sharing your views, so true that a good Tank is very useful but hard to master? :)

But let me try to be antagonistic for sec, the way I see it is that the problem is that PL and guess SL/*L/B* (!) is very "pick-up-n-play" friendly so group trinity needs to be more flexible ie not restrictive because:

1. You could have no tank class in a pug.
2. Jumble of classes needs to be workable at least if not optimal
3. Some players will not be so aware of the Trinity roles and so some lee-way needed if players want to role a class for the rp/non-mechanic aspect of the class eg cool looking, selection of gear & maybe a story in *L etc.
4. Solo play is always important if your friends are not online/you feel like a single-player experience for a break or farming etc.
5. PvP only has 3 classes so for it to have depth need to make all classes rock-paper-scissors to make it more interesting for team-work or at least T = H = D with different playstyles so it's even and about know our class inside out to win...

MMO groups have always need 4 things.
1. Tank
2. Healer
3. Crowd Control
4. DPS

In PL we only have 3 "classes" to fill these roles, so there has to be double duty. I was really excited to see the bear have the crowd control and taunt. It was a slightly new way to tank rather than spam taunt and threat building skills. The let down was that tanking just isn't vital.
Because of the fact that every class can fill multiple roles, pick-up groups are easy. It would be nice to have a ready made group you run with every night...and im sure there's a lot of you that do, but its just as easy to run through a few PUGs until you find a good one.
I'm of the opinion that if groups NEEDED a good tank, good healer, or skilled dps class for every run it would make that friends list we have more important and there would be a tighter community.

[ratava]

MMO groups have always need 4 things.
1. Tank
2. Healer
3. Crowd Control
4. DPS

In PL we only have 3 "classes" to fill these roles, so there has to be double duty. I was really excited to see the bear have the crowd control and taunt. It was a slightly new way to tank rather than spam taunt and threat building skills. The let down was that tanking just isn't vital.
Because of the fact that every class can fill multiple roles, pick-up groups are easy. It would be nice to have a ready made group you run with every night...and im sure there's a lot of you that do, but its just as easy to run through a few PUGs until you find a good one.
I'm of the opinion that if groups NEEDED a good tank, good healer, or skilled dps class for every run it would make that friends list we have more important and there would be a tighter community.

I think the above is indeed true, but more ideally true. IE for it to work you have to add more assumptions to be able to hold up these conditions above:

eg if groups need a good tank: Increases the pressure/responsibility on Tank players --> less players want to play this class?
eg if you are playing at a time your friends who you depend on are not, it's going to be harder work
eg Tank solo'ing is no fun without damage/healer - expensive on pots?

The other thing is the above is better for roles in teams when conditions are right, but they also are worse for solo'ing and eg LF-T/H becomes a real problem even if you have +3 players running a dungeon/level. I also think it can degrade into "tank & spank" being the only viable gameplay if it excludes all classes being viable hybrids or any random combination of classes?

I like the idea of improving Tanks... but based on GIVING MORE OPTIONS not taking options away as a priority then giving customization and on-the-fly specialization options also WHEN it's needed... eg boss fights and PvP?

I think perhaps giving a selection of weapons each of which has skills that are geared to DPS, CC, SUPPORT+HEAL, TANK&TAUNT in various proportions to all classes but maybe buff options (Ellyidol's idea (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?27847-Buffs-in-SL.&p=316106&viewfull=1#post316106)) more leaning towards certain ways for certain classes? :cool:

[Irconfuzed]

That's very true. We have to remember this isn't the PC platform where when you sit down to play it will be a 4-5 hour session. With this mobile MMO, I play when I have the chance throughout the day and its nice accomplishing something in 20-30 minutes.
So yeah, solo-ability, and ease of pick up group play has to be a priority. Good point.

[ratava]

That's very true. We have to remember this isn't the PC platform where when you sit down to play it will be a 4-5 hour session. With this mobile MMO, I play when I have the chance throughout the day and its nice accomplishing something in 20-30 minutes.
So yeah, solo-ability, and ease of pick up group play has to be a priority. Good point.

Just added a little edit re weapons/buffs also to fit the

Generalist vs Specialist

discussion! ;)

Yeah, I've done this more than a few times: Pitching PL & SL as if they are same as PC lol eg collision detection Oops... in the search for solving the above^ I wonder if it is solvable?

But the Specialist Roles eg Tank and Healer are still important esp. WHEN the conditions above are good. :)

[Ellyidol]

That's very true. We have to remember this isn't the PC platform where when you sit down to play it will be a 4-5 hour session. With this mobile MMO, I play when I have the chance throughout the day and its nice accomplishing something in 20-30 minutes.
So yeah, solo-ability, and ease of pick up group play has to be a priority. Good point.

Although SL and PL are most definitely still pick-up games, in which you can get started right away, I think the community has shown its ability to consume content pretty quick, therefore calling for more time consuming or in-depth systems for the game.

By time consuming or in-depth I don't mean "Spend half an hour to get to the dungeon/boss you want", or spend countless hours to get to / kill a very big boss - let's leave that for WoW, but definitely more than just levelling to max, getting gear, then what? Hopefully there will be something else in store for us..

Also, although SL and PL are both from STS, I very highly doubt that SL is a complete copy-paste of PL. At least in terms of gameplay and game building. Sure, it'll be good in the short-run, after all it will be new. But the moment players start to see that playing SL is actually just PL in different skin, there might be a problem there.

I'm pretty confident and excited that SL will be entirely different though, especially with all the resources and effort that STS seems to be putting into it.

[Irconfuzed]

I would personally like to see end game raid content on some scale. I haven't pushed very hard to hit lvl 56 in PL because there isn't much point. The best thing about the old MMOs I used to play was that grinding to the lvl cap was a small part of the game. I spent months on that grind, then years raiding with my guild and friends. I wouldn't trade those raid nights for the world.

[Irconfuzed]

Even one 10 man raid-only dungeon would be a good reason for me to grind to the lvl cap and find a few folks to farm it for a cool looking set of gear.

[ratava]

We know a few things worth summarizing:


Pocket Legends' raid encounters have developed over time into very complicated affairs, and "we just barely scratched the surface of what the Spacetime Engine could do" in that game, according to Gattis.
tuaw (http://www.tuaw.com/2011/03/07/gdc-2011-spacetime-studios-returns-to-blackstar/)


This is pretty much where the similarities end, however, as the developers are promising that Blackstar will offer a vastly bigger, far more story-driven world. gamezebo (http://www.gamezebo.com/games/blackstar/preview)


This will definitely be a bit more of a hardcore MMORPG than Pocket Legends. droidgamers (http://www.droidgamers.com/index.php/game-news/events/gdc2011/1291-gdc-2011-hands-on-with-spacetime-studios-upcoming-space-mmorpg-called-blackstar)

And from Cinco (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?19023-Blackstar-FAQ-%28-What-we-know-as-we-find-out-%29) on Combat:


Blackstar will definitely have a global cool-down. It will probably have other skill-class cool-downs as well. Like all of your "Holographic" stuff may have a cool-down and all of your "Amp-Light" will have its own, etc. We did a build of Blackstar where the DPS character (called the "Operative") could use a target debuff to get different combo results with three different classes of weapon. It was very compelling - totally different from PL in a great way

And in the interview (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/entry.php?29-Transcript-of-iGames-Chat-with-Gary-Gattis-Pocket-Legends-Star-Legends-amp-Beyond) from Mr Gattis:


The game plays differently, we’re adding different types of mechanics. We’re adding all these environmental mechanics, these doors and pressure plates and “I can only hack this terminal if I’m this type of class” and it really changes the way that the game feels

There's a few more including: GDC 2011 (http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/03/02/gdc-2011-spacetime-pontificates-on-pocket-mmos/):


However, Barnes admits that the team made a key mistake when it came to Pocket Legends' PvP gameplay: It focused on PvE first and then tried to tack on PvP later. Trying to balance PvP after the fact became extremely difficult, which is why Spacetime decided to focus on PvP first in design for all future titles.

Although PvP may be in waiting: From MMORPGitalia (http://www.mmorpgitalia.it/site/content.php?1468-Gary-Gattis-Interview-Blackstar-and-More)


We will most likely have PvP in Blackstar at launch, but it is too soon to tell.

Summary:

1. More Story
2. More Environmental gameplay
3. Improved PvP
4. More "hardcore" combat incl layers of GCD.
5. Greater customization eg m/f choices per class

:) Roll on E3 info..

Just to add for completion:

interview (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/entry.php?29-Transcript-of-iGames-Chat-with-Gary-Gattis-Pocket-Legends-Star-Legends-amp-Beyond) from Mr Gattis:


Pocket Legends launched with just a little bit. Star Legends is able to leverage the best of Pocket Legends development so it will come with all of those systems that Pocket Legends has, plus a few, and then we’ll roll those systems back into Pocket Legends ...

[Ellyidol]

Yeah I'm definitely excited ;)

[WhoIsThis]

I'm going to have to ask you this, how much experience do you have playing 5v5 PvP games? I've found that tanks are significantly more useful in PvP than in PvE. They lead the party and can even last a surprisingly long time against even 4v1 - they are usually the last to die. They are invaluable absorbing a lot of fire while the other classes (mages in particular due to AOE) can set up their spells. Birds can also take advantage of the bear, although I've found birds already excel at 1v1 to begin with.

They are also pretty decent 1v1. If you don't have your mana shield up or you're a bird who hasn't time their combo, being beckoned and stomped can be a one hit ko.

[ratava]

Last I was really into pvp bow-bears were all the rage; don't play pvp much since those times. Too many dodgy connections don't help and various other issues I don't like re pvp PL. I'd prefer pve <> pvp in SL for builds but that's just my opinion, see thread I made re PvP in B*. :) Very interested to see SL iteration.

[OverkillED]

This is a bearutiful debate-thing. You guys are like bear geniuses debating about tanking.

[WhoIsThis]

Last I was really into pvp bow-bears were all the rage; don't play pvp much since those times. Too many dodgy connections don't help and various other issues I don't like re pvp PL. I'd prefer pve <> pvp in SL for builds but that's just my opinion, see thread I made re PvP in B*. :) Very interested to see SL iteration.

I think that you are going to have to play some PvP before casting any kind of judgment on bears. PvP is interesting because the enemies are tougher than anything you'll find in PvE, there's no access to potions, etc. and it is a real place where a bear can demonstrate their usefulness. Barring that, tough levels are also a good place to go.

[Ellyidol]

I think that you are going to have to play some PvP before casting any kind of judgment on bears. PvP is interesting because the enemies are tougher than anything you'll find in PvE, there's no access to potions, etc. and it is a real place where a bear can demonstrate their usefulness. Barring that, tough levels are also a good place to go.

I agree, the strength of the bear shows the most in PvP, IMO.

BUT, it's one of the hardest to use too, being the only one with one ranged attack (assuming melee), or two if you're dex (beckon + normal hits).

[ratava]

I think that you are going to have to play some PvP before casting any kind of judgment on bears. PvP is interesting because the enemies are tougher than anything you'll find in PvE, there's no access to potions, etc. and it is a real place where a bear can demonstrate their usefulness. Barring that, tough levels are also a good place to go.

Well that's exactly what I wanted to find out from this thread. I've been put of progressing bears each time and wondered if 1) Ppl think they become better 2) If like most tanks they are tricky to get good at ESP. High levels & 3) If they suffer in. PvP if spec'd Pure Tank.

Also curious what other ppl got from the bear, same as me or opposite and if there was anything they definitely wanted improved in the Commando.

If we see some differences with the Commando then I might give that a better shot.

[TheLaw]

I think that it's pretty unfair for Avians in PL to get benefit from being pure dex, and mages too from pure int. but the bears don't. I hope that they get to harvest the best from their starting attribute, and a tanker/COMMANDO can go full Str without losing out on anything.

[Irconfuzed]

After this thread and thinking on the commando class, I decided to take my lvl 45 PL bear and respec enough DEX to use a gun/bow and the rest in STR. My thinking being that a Commando in SL will likely be a tank that makes use of ranged weapons and it might give me some ideas.
Aside from being squishy, I found my role across several runs hadn't changed much. With beckon I could control the pace of the group and each pack of mobs, and im amazed at the dps I can put out. I actually like it a lot and its got me playing my bear again. The only downside so far is boss fights. Try tanking a boss and it leads to a quick death.
Anyway, just thought i'd throw that out there. I've never considered a ranged tank with knockback, stuns, and other mob control skills, but the idea of it intrigues me and could lead to a new tanking style. I can't wait to see what all STS has come up with for the Commando.

[ratava]

After this thread and thinking on the commando class, I decided to take my lvl 45 PL bear and respec enough DEX to use a gun/bow and the rest in STR. My thinking being that a Commando in SL will likely be a tank that makes use of ranged weapons and it might give me some ideas.
Aside from being squishy, I found my role across several runs hadn't changed much. With beckon I could control the pace of the group and each pack of mobs, and im amazed at the dps I can put out. I actually like it a lot and its got me playing my bear again. The only downside so far is boss fights. Try tanking a boss and it leads to a quick death.
Anyway, just thought i'd throw that out there. I've never considered a ranged tank with knockback, stuns, and other mob control skills, but the idea of it intrigues me and could lead to a new tanking style. I can't wait to see what all STS has come up with for the Commando.

SAME! Completely agree, ranged tank of sorts would be very interesting. :cool:

I'm totally sold on the Engi and Op and this thread is certainly looking at what could make a great Commando... we've done well to knock out 4pgs without anything on the Commando to go and just ppl's expertise on the Bear in PL :)

[elianel]

...