Venom Guild Post (LONG POST)

[Xanthia]

This post is being written by Xanthia and Azrael with input from the members of Venom.

Thesis: Improvements to the gaming mechanics are not only necessary to improve gameplay but to ensure the quality of players and content in the future. There are many ways to achieve this goal, however this process is very time consuming and mana draining. This is where the loyal, engaged, and trustworthy community members and beta testers of the game have pooled resources together to engineer a document like the one you are about to read. Without further ado, it's time to "Shake off the SOE," and turn and burn! Enjoy! (No pun intended for the DEV's just sounded funny)

Abstract: We are going to provide one TL:DR post that will cover all the issues that need to be fixed in the game as it is right now and ideas for the future. The post will be discussing the pressing issues of PvP Imbalance, distribution of statistics, friends joining passworded games without a password, the issue of currency, trading optimization, PvE farming and boss killing, and finally guilds. Also the post will be a in-depth look at the DEV's bible for the long term direction of PL that we would like to see the game move toward! Ideas like Removal of Player Distributed Stats, Extensive Crafting System, 10-Man Raids, Achievement Points, Skill Trees, 6 New Hero Classes, and classes wearing class specific gear only.

PvP balance:

There has been a lot of ideas floating around about how to make PvP a more balanced and enjoyable experience. Probably the biggest issue players have had with PvP combat is that it simply doesn't last long enough in many cases. There have been serveral fixes applied by the devs to fix this issue, and the result has been that sometimes PvP fights last too long, and sometimes it is far to quick. There are two main culprits: The artificial lowering of damage done in PvP as opposed to PvE by the developers, and the dominance of cooldowns in PvP. The damage systems in PvP and PvE should be universal. Instead of changing damage artificially, it would be better to change the statstics of characters. In the next section is an explanation of the changes to be made to statstics. Briefly however, strength would provide a heavy increase to HP which would make PvP battles last longer. PvE damage from mobs would simply be changed in order to compensate for any changes to the stats system. This would also make PvP more challenging, and make the role of the tank more necessary, since players without and strength and only dexterity or intelligence, would in effect be "glass cannons." To put it simply, Cooldown spells define PvP. The problem is so great that one can reliably determine who will win a fight based on who has their cooldowns ready or not. Most notably are the cooldowns Iron blood, Rage, Evasion and Focus. Cooldowns should either be less powerful, or have a much longer timer on their cooldowns. Combat should not be based entirely on rage and focus specifically, and to a lesser extent evasion and ironblood. There is also an issue with damage mitigation, where a player can hit an opponent that is buffed for very little damage, but then hit for high damage when he crits. For instance, if a player has a high armor rating, and normal attacks are hitting that player for 2-10 with a 2 hander, that 2 hander will still crit that same player for around 130 damage. There seems to be an issue with crits doing far more damage than an auto attack would against the same enemy. Skills that are for direct target should not go off if the target is out of range. Avians evasion should work while the player is moving. Elven healing is the biggest thing needed in PvP to offset the no potion use, however, healers are unable to use heals correctly because they are killed in 2 hits with Blessing of Vitality up and Magic Shield up. A player should never be killed in 2 shots with 108 armor rating. Elves should have a much higher heal ability to offset the large damage that other classes can produce, and a second less on the spell regeneration.

Hybrid Classes

Hybrid classes are simply getting out of hand. The best example of this is the Avian class. Avians with strength builds for example are able to use two handed weapons with very high top end damage to heavily boost their ranged abilities. Besides it making absoluelty no sense for a two handed weapon to be used in a long range attack, these hybrid classes make certain skills too powerful. We have already explained that the cooldown skills dominate pvp. Because of this, an Avian in pvp uses focus, then break armor, and then unleashes his/her shot skills. When the target is buffed (evasion, BoM, ironblood), these are the only attacks that will matter, any other attacks will have minimal affects. What this means is the only attacks that really matter are the skill based attacks, all of which work at range, and with the two hander's damage. Melee attacks after that are a bonus at best.

Singling out the Avian two hander is easy because of how ridiculous and yet effective it is, but this can be applied to any hybrid class. Not only do these hybrid classes often not make sense, but they are impossible to balance with other classes in a systematic way, because every change made to their skills or damage also affects players who play the same class with the weapons that were intended to work with their skills.

Classes must be changed so that they can only use certain weapons and armor. It is best to add new classes, which would be rather easy quite frankly compared to balancing 3 classes that are in effect 9 different classes. At the very least however, skills should only work with weapons that fit the skill. In other words a range skill should not work with a melee weapon, and a melee skill should not work with a ranged weapon.

[Xanthia]

Distribution of stats

Strength should provide a signigicant boost to health points. It has been said many times, but the reality is that the only reason to invest points into strength is to allow for the use of strength base d equipment. Players should have a reason to invest points into Strength. Our belief is that Strength should provide a significant boost to a player's Hit Points. The idea here, combined with a reversion of the pvp system which would remove any artificial alterations to pvp damage, is to have players with high strength have high survivability. The amount will have to be adjusted, but we think that 1 point of strength should give 4-7 health points. If a ursan were to have 112 strength for instance, and strength gave 5 HP per point, then the ursan would have 860 HP (with the base HP included). Again, keep in mind, players would be again doing the same level of damage they were doing before the developers change the pvp damage system. Dexterity builds should continue to do a higher of damage than other builds, but dexterity should provide the same amount of stat boosts to all classes. Avians should not gain more from dexterity. Intelligence in this new system, would also provide a boost to spell damage enchantment to magical skills. This would include all elven abilities, as well as such abilities as avian roots or restore for ursans and avians. This will give players a more of a reason to spec intelligence, and a larger benefit from it. What this would create is longer pvp battles in multiple ways, and at the same time give players a reason to spec their classes with a combination of statistics points. Statstics will do more than define what a player can wear, they will in their own way define the their character.

Armor

Once the above changes are implemented, the armor system should be altered. The difference in armor ratings of the classes is minimal. As an example, its not the armor rating of a ursan that will really help the ursan survive longer than an elf with an off hand. Instead iron-blood is what helps the ursan the most. The difference in mitigation should be greater between armor types. There also exists a problem with players buffing their armor to the point where too much damage is mitigated. A player should rarely if never do 0-5 damage to an opponent. The numbers and percentages on damage mitigation need to be completely reworked.

PVE AND PVP MUST HAVE THE SAME COMBAT SYSTEM

Friends joining passworded games

Friends should not be allowed to join your game just because they are on your friends list, you basically debuffed the "Invite" button when you allowed this to happen. You made an invite button for a reason. Player's only allowed to join game if you do one of two things. 1. Get Invited via "Invite" button 2. Have the password to the game and correctly enter it. This would solve the issue with games being joined randomly by people on your friends list that you have no intention of farming or grouping with. Also, when players join and then it is the leader of the group's responsibility to either remove him so that room can be made to invite someone wanted or send him a message telling him to leave. Also, in PvP format which had already been discussed, if a guild or group is trying to work on builds or practice something they are unable to with the constant harassment of joining players who want to see whats going on. What is the point in a passworded game if everyone on ones friends list does not need a password to join, including all of your groups friends list.

Currency

There also needs to be a baseline for currency which will be pronounced when the Broker/Auction House are introduced, however we would like to see a few features noted. We would like for you to be able to purchase with gold a LARGE amount of slots to sell items. We would like these items to stay on the broker as long as the player chooses to leave them there and also for them to be able to be sold when the player is offline. In other games that I have played a 10% broker fee is applied, and I feel that it is a fair price, all things considered.

Trading Optimization

- To reduce the hassle of initiating a trade with someone in a populated town, we should be given like a pop-up box to accept or decline the trade. The current system is a hassle since we have to find out who initiated the trade with us, try to find then, and tap them, switch to trade tab in order to accept the trade. Another idea is that we can simply just tap the message ("Sally wants to trade with you") to go straight to the trade screen.

- There should be more precaution steps before processing a trade. Sometimes users may accidentally hit the trade box while scrolling up and down the item display list. A pop-up box to confirm the trade would be beneficial.

PvE bosses are still farmable

PvE bosses are supposed to be hard enough that it requires a group of 4 or 5 to kill. Bosses should not be able to be farmed in less than 3 minutes per round. You should never be able to train the entire zone while killing all the bosses and not die. The regular mobs and bosses all need a HUGE buff. A group of 5 should barely be able to kill more than 3 regular mobs at a time, let alone train an entire zone. Boss fights should be much much harder, a healer should have to work to keep the tank alive, and if any adds pop up, the group should have to run or really buckle down. This is how the game would be able to keep replayability. As it is now, honestly, I get so bored running behind 4 of my guild members and just throwing down some heals and occasionally using Lightning storm. It bores me to death that I can watch tv, carry on a conversation with someone on the phone and farm bosses like this. Please make them MUCH harder.

[Xanthia]

Guilds

I think that guilds should be an intrical part of the pocket legends community. The guilds should run the game. Where joining the best guild is a huge advantage or enables you to be recognized more than if not. I think that a guild tag should be visible under your name like this: <Venom>. Guilds should have levels just like players adventure levels, and when the adventure levels go up, the guild levels should go up. The way that the guild can raise the level should be to complete renewable quests that give a very small amount of experience. This will promote players to improve their guild and should be able to be accomplished by either 1 person all the way up to 5. I think these quests should scale depending on how many players there are in the group. To form a guild a group of 5 players should have to go to a special instance and clear the zone without dying and then provide 5 million gold to the NPC at the end of the zone to form a guild. If you fail this process you should not be able to enter the instance again for 7 days. This will keep the number of players trying this zone to a minimum. There will be 3 guild halls. Level 1 should be available at Guild Level 5 and should cost 5 Million, Level 2 should be available at Guild Level 20 and cost 20 million, and Guild Hall Level 3 should be available at Guild Level 35 and should cost 30 million. These guild halls should be able to be kept public or made private (You must have the PW to get in, friends list join's should not count). The guild halls should be places where the guilds can do everything. This is where they should be able to join games, GvG action should start from the guild hall. There should be a Market Broker in the GH. When crafting is released, all of the required crafting tables should be able to be purchased for the guild. There should be a fuel broker for crafting. Guilds should not have a monthly maintenance fee because of the high price of the hall.

Removal of Player Dictated Stats

If this game is going to move forward as an MMO and a game in general, there needs to be a point where the stats that we place in Strength, Dexterity, and Intelligence all cease to be under the players control. If this would happen this would allow you to create more armor that are class specific so players could "Customize" (I hate that word btw) and would not have to be like other players. This would happen in 3 ways; gear, skill trees, and hero classes. When this occurs this will create a baseline so that you can start to build solid classes instead of having flimsy classes that can be manipulated by what ever gear set or statistic distribution is popular that week.

Extensive Crafting System

Crafting is something very special to me, I throughly enjoy the art of crafting. To be honest I want to model crafting in this game after Everquest 2. I think that crafting in EQ2 is incredible. It is not boring, but it is an active process, you can't just keep on hitting "Craft" skill like you do in WoW and the item will just chance it. In this system you will have buttons at the bottom of the crafting window that will do certain things while you are crafting, their will be 3 levels of success and there will be Combo's you can achieve in the crafting room. Like it might ask you to push a certain crafting button, if you do, you will get rewarded in the quality of your item. There will be # different types of harvesting required to complete crafting. Mining, Foresting (Chopping Wood), Foraging (Food Units to Cook), and Fishing (for Cooking). All of these items will work on a Tier Base. Like Forest Haven is Tier 1, Darkwood Forest is Tier 2, Balefort Castle is Tier 3, Fathom Crypt is Tier 4, The Lost Expedition is Tier 5, Ancient Swamps is Tier 6. There will be two types of quality of harvesting, either Common or Legendary. The common's are what one will use to craft the majority of items. The Legendary's are what Legend Level items will be made from, these will be very rare, they will come form the same place just by chance you will get a rare. When you level you can purchase the scroll of your level's tradeskill items from a Merchant by the crafting tables along with fuel (Which will be differentiated by tier), however to sucessfully craft a Legend Level item you must find the Master Scrolls off of a mob, these are equilivent of Pink drops and are tradeable. The Legendary(Rare) harvest items are also tier based. (Ex. If you are making a Level 4 Legend Item you will need a Tier 1 Legendary resource) The types of crafting will be Armorsmith, Weaponsmith, Jeweler, Alchemist, Woodworker, Tailor, Chef, and Carpenter. The armorsmith will make all the plate types of armor. The profession will craft chest and helmets. Weaponsmiths will make all weapons that are wielded by ursans. Jeweler's will make jewels and will imbue weapons. Alchemist's will make potions, Elixers, and will Imbue Armor. Tailor's will make leather, and cloth armor. Chef's will make food and drink that will increase your H/S and M/S respectively. Woodworkers will make Wands, Staffs, and Bows. Carpenter's will make every item that will be placed in your home, or guild hall.

10-Man Raids

This is essential for your hard core players. This would be the first real end-game content. This would enable you to properly place Pink items in the game, instead of them being common loot for farmers of regular level bosses. This should be bosses that require the most elite form of teamwork and great communication between all players, requiring pinpoint placement of each raid member to ensure victory. There would be no pots allowed in raid zones. Remember, Raid's are set-up to try and fail the group, they are supposed to be extremely hard. Most of the time, raids are not completable by "common" players who do not play the game alot and have the best gear or best players around them.

Achievement Points

This is a secondary form of experience, this is experience that is earned in very specific ways. When you gain a level in achievement, this point can only been spent in your skill tree to improve the quality of your skills. However, there are unique ways in which you can earn Achievement Points (AP). The experience is given when you accomplish things for the first time that are worthy of notice. Achievements like killing a named boss for the first time, completing a zone fully, every adventure level, when you hit max level, when you visit a POI (Point of Interest) these will need to be implemented into the game, completing quests, getting titles, and achieving a certain rank in PvP and you only get AP Exp for doing these things for the first time. Achievement points are only gained for the character you are playing, not your entire account.

Skill Trees

This is where players would go to spend their AP (Achievement Points) that they earned to better their character. A character will have two skill trees. One will be his Base Class, like Ursan, then when he reaches Hero Class he will have access to his second tree. These trees are like Skill Points we have not, they level up your skills. I know there has been a lot of complaining about "Customization" well this is the answer, if you buy into this method of gameplay you will have more "Customizing" options then you know what to do with. However, you will only be able to put points into your skill tree. (Example; If you are a Ursan-Guardian you can't put points into any other skill trees other than the Ursan one and the Guardian one.)

[Xanthia]

6 New Hero Classes

Once a character reaches the Max Level as a Ursan, Avian, or Elf you then are required to choose a Hero Class and each Base Class will have 2 Hero Classes associated with it. When you reach max level you are then prompted to decided which path you will venture. You will start again at level 1, however you will have all the spells up to the max level of your base class. But, you will gain the equivalent of that many spells in your Hero class that will go on to specialize your character even more. Once you transformed into your hero class, you would unlock all of the zones on Heroic level which would be twice as hard. Players who had not unlocked Heroic Mode on their character could not play in the Heroic Zones, however a Hero would be able to go and play the normal zones. Once you became a Hero Class you would not longer be able to use potions. They would be transfered to your next highest level character that is still able to use potions, if none meet requirements then you would be funded gold for the equilivent of potions you have.

The classes will go as follows Avian will be able to become the Hero Class of Ranger or Assassin. Rangers will be bow specialists, these classes will be masters of death from above. They will learn the art of traps and master the precision of arrownautics :)

The Assassin class will be the specialists of daggers, shiv's, and talons! These backstabbing rogues will be one with the shadow. They will master the art of sneak and perfect the critical strike. These will be your true weapon specialists, mastering the precisions of dagger movements.

The Ursan Base class will have a choice to transform to either a Guardian or a Berzerker.

The Guardian is the epitome of a meat shield. These enraged ursans use thick armor and daring shields to deflect even the strongest of blows from the mightiest foes. This will be the true tank in a group and will be needed if a group is to venture to far into the wild.

Berzerker is the opposite of the Guardian, they are the enraged ursans. These damage dealers are specialists in taking damage and dealing more damage. These are not the best option for a tank, however they can take a lot of hits and will be standing at the end of the round. This is the only class beside the Assassin that is capable of dual weilding.

The Elf base class will transform into either a Templar or Wizard.

The Templar is the God Healer, these chosen few take Healing to another level, they have mastered all forms of healing and specialize in preventing death from their allies instead of dealing it to their foes. Using Holy spells these physician's call on their powers to aid the weak. This Hero Class has also mastered the art of Curing.

The Wizard is the Master of Spell Damage, no other class can match the insane damage afflicted by these magic moguls. They control at will the properties of the elements (Earth, Wind, Fire, and Water) and wield them as a assassin would their sword.

Classes wearing Class Specific Armor

With all the modifications that want the game to move toward, this idea is HUGE. If every player would not be allowed to wear any gear or equip any weapons that are not one of that characters chosen professions. I know that there are a lot of you out there that will complain about this because you want "Customization," however, when we get 6 new classes and AP and Skill trees there will be more customization then you will know what to do with, but wearing gear that is not even for you, makes the game look kinda bad, IMO, and also makes the classes look unstructured.

We here at Venom would like to thank you all for reading and supporting everything we do. We look forward to positive support of this thread and we hope that the DEV's will look at this and see that it took us 4 days to formulate a document like this and we would like to see these questions answered. We hope to see you all in-game and look forward to grouping with you soon.

We will use the second post to update this thread and add changes and modifications as we see fit.

http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj401/camodawg/Xanthiasig-1.png

[Evante]

This looks great so far xan = ) I rlly like what you said about the pvp balance and completely agree on the class specific weps. Just keep it comin for ppl to see hehe.
Hmm... For the hero class not being able to use potions, I think they should be able to use them, but have a cooldown of 30 seconds for it, so that way, your gear does not completely have to have ms and hs.

[Kirei]

Guilds

Level 1 should be available at Guild Level 5 and should cost 5 Million, Level 2 should be available at Guild Level 20 and cost 20 million, and Guild Hall Level 3 should be available at Guild Level 35 and should cost 30 million.


does your enchantress like conjore money??? or are you just stinking rich, cuz those are ridculous amounts

[Evante]

does your enchantress like conjore money??? or are you just stinking rich, cuz those are ridculous amounts

I actually think it needs to be that expensive, then, having a guild hall of that level will mark the 'rank' so to speak of your guild.

[Kirei]

oh i totally agree it should be expensive, just no that much

[BestHyun]

Great post Xan. This is going to be interesting to read. haha my input is only like a few lines :)

[Xanthia]

oh i totally agree it should be expensive, just no that much

Think about it though, if the top rank is not something that takes a while to get, then it is not appreciated as much when you have it, and everyone else has it as well.

[Kirei]

like i said i totally agree, but it should be like maybe 1 mil for the first one 3 mil for the secend one and 5 mil for the third one.

[Xanthia]

like i said i totally agree, but it should be like maybe 1 mil for the first one 3 mil for the secend one and 5 mil for the third one.

Not high enough, if it stands how you said, Venom would be able to purchase all 3 right now. Remember this is a guild effort, not an individual one.

[Kirei]

Say what?!?!?!?!?

[Banned]

All this just seems way to overly complicated for a mobile MMO. And I especially dislike all the restrictions on builds and armor. Ugh, I would hate PL if it were like this.

[Kirei]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
hellz ya

[Dizko]

Just read it.

Found some of it to be boring personal opinion and some to be just a Venom guild flag.

However - 75% of what you guys have said is spot on. The devs would do good to read and consider it.

Nice work.

[Advance]

I guess I have a bit of work cut out for me if this goes through then Xan? :)

[Azrael]

I could have written a lot more in the sections i wrote but the holiday weekend took up my time.

There are going to be people who don't want class restrictions on gear, but that same sentiment will ensure that PvP stays a underplayed and lackluster experience thats impossible to balance or take seriously. Its simply impossible to balance classes that don't have restrictions. The suggestion made was to have more classes rather than 3 with no limitations. I think the developers like the current system because its provides more than three classes (in theory) without having to make new classes, and some players like this because they think it makes the game interesting and dynamic. Obviously from the OP, i don't agree.

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/1135/azraelsig1.png

[Synozeer]

Great post. I agree on a lot of points. People say it's "just" a mobile MMO, but it's really not - it's on the iPad, and that's a gaming platform like no other. There's nothing stopping this game from being more in depth with its game mechanics. I like the game, but I know if the class structure and stats system stays as basic as it is now, I'm going to lose interest with the game (as I've already started to). I've been talking about how we need a better hit point system for a week or two and I think this is the first thing that really needs to be revamped. With that base change, it paves the way for all the other changes.

[Rebel]

For people who don't want the end of hybrid classes by making class specific gear think about this.

The reason that we choose to make hybrid classes is the horrible variety of classes to choose from. If more classes were made, than that would give us more things to choose from. Also, the hero classes will add much more depth to class choice. With more choices, people wouldn't have the need for hybrids.

Another thing that I think is very necessary is the crafting that was in this post. With the new classes to try, crafting, and guilds, this game will have a much more playable aspect.

http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj401/camodawg/Rebelssig-1.png

[SlipperyJim]

All this just seems way to overly complicated for a mobile MMO. And I especially dislike all the restrictions on builds and armor. Ugh, I would hate PL if it were like this.
Minus the "hate" part, I agree with Banned. Y'all are way overthinking a game that you play on your phone. Part of PL's charm is the casual gameplay. I already have a full-time job. I don't need (or want) PL to become a second job.


Trading Optimization

- To reduce the hassle of initiating a trade with someone in a populated town, we should be given like a pop-up box to accept or decline the trade. The current system is a hassle since we have to find out who initiated the trade with us, try to find then, and tap them, switch to trade tab in order to accept the trade. Another idea is that we can simply just tap the message ("Sally wants to trade with you") to go straight to the trade screen.
I like this idea. All of your other ideas ... I don't like. As previously stated, PL is a simple game. Your changes would undo a lot of that simplicity, which would make PL less enjoyable for me.

[Xanthia]

Minus the "hate" part, I agree with Banned. Y'all are way overthinking a game that you play on your phone. Part of PL's charm is the casual gameplay. I already have a full-time job. I don't need (or want) PL to become a second job.


I like this idea. All of your other ideas ... I don't like. As previously stated, PL is a simple game. Your changes would undo a lot of that simplicity, which would make PL less enjoyable for me.

Why would changing the game for the better make you play it more? Basically you are saying that if they changed the game so they it could be more in-depth that it would require you to play more. You don't have to play it more than casual..it's all preference I am just saying this game is going to lose a LOT of interest if they do not change things...and very quickly, this game is far to easy and needs a lot more content added. I love what the DEV's have done so far, but they need to make huge changes to the system to produce more playability and more content.

SlipperyJim - this does not mean that you have to play it more, it will just be more in-depth so that the players who do play this a lot more than we should will have something to do. Perfect example (In Venom we have about 5 players with 3 characters all 35 and all full pinks, also when our top 5 players get together in PvP we have yet to be beaten and we have never won by less than 10 deaths.) What else is there to do....socialize, nah it gets really boring, so we make posts like this to improve the overall game play for everyone, however again we are not saying that you have to play it any more.

[SlipperyJim]

Why would changing the game for the better make you play it more? Basically you are saying that if they changed the game so they it could be more in-depth that it would require you to play more. You don't have to play it more than casual..it's all preference I am just saying this game is going to lose a LOT of interest if they do not change things...and very quickly, this game is far to easy and needs a lot more content added. I love what the DEV's have done so far, but they need to make huge changes to the system to produce more playability and more content.
Perhaps I did not explain myself clearly. It's not so much the time commitment -- although that's part of it -- it's the overall commitment to the game. If PL becomes more complex, it will require a greater commitment to play.

To take one of your suggestions as an example: Crafting. If the Devs implement a full-featured crafting system into the game, I'll have basically two choices. I'll either need to start crafting myself (adding more commitment to the game), or I'll need to crank up my farming and pay others to craft for me (adding more commitment to the game). Either way, my commitment to the game will probably have to increase. I don't want that. I don't want to worry about how to make my items, and I don't want to pay other people to make my items. I just want to kill a boss and get the item.

I strongly disagree with your predictions of doom and gloom for PL. Your thesis seems to be that the Devs need to add more of everything. My counterpoint to your thesis is that PL started as a fairly simple game, and it's become quite popular as such. To use an analogy, your "laundry list" of suggestions seems a bit like someone saying that Checkers is doomed because of its simplicity. "Unless each checker gets an upgrade path, customization, and the ability to craft new checkers ... everyone will quit playing!" Well, no. Checkers is a simple game, and that simplicity is part of its popularity. The rules are really simple. The strategies can get a little tricky, but nearly anyone can sit down with a set of checkers & a board to play a game. In a similar way, I believe that part of PL's popularity is its simplicity. People who normally shun MMOs (like me) can pick up their iDevices, download the PL app, and start slaying mobs in very little time. It's quick, easy, and fun.

While I respect the (obvious) level of work that Venom put into this list of suggestions, I don't want most of them to be implemented. I think that we really want different games. You want PL to be more complex. I want it to stay at (or near) the current level of simplicity. It will be interesting to see which way the Devs go....

As an aside, y'all have looked at the planned additions to the game:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?1386-Development-Release-Schedule

When I look at that schedule, it looks pretty chock-full to me. My tolerance for complexity will already be a bit stretched. ;) So let's see how the planned additions work before we start requesting more stuff.

[Thelonearcher]

The reason I disagree with almost all of is because of the
memory it can take up. 3 characters is good enough you guys can't excpect any of this to happen suggestions are good but the devs work there butts off. Again remember it's not even done yet. There still making it! I think suggegtions would be better for near end summer when it's complete. For Now we must be patience and let the devs take care of the changes right now :) ( THERE STILL MAKEING IT,ITS NOT EVEN A FULL GAME YET!!) :)

[Demarrer]

The reason I disagree with almost all of is because of the
memory it can take up. 3 characters is good enough you guys can't excpect any of this to happen suggestions are good but the devs work there butts off. Again remember it's not even done yet. There still making it! I think suggegtions would be better for near end summer when it's complete. For Now we must be patience and let the devs take care of the changes right now :) ( THERE STILL MAKEING IT,ITS NOT EVEN A FULL GAME YET!!) :)

I agree, all we can really do now is give general feedback on what is implemented. Like PvP, we can give ideas on how to balance it. I am sure the devs already have ideas for their major releases. This list of ideas makes this game a PC MMO, not a phone one.

[Banned]

I agree, all we can really do now is give general feedback on what is implemented. Like PvP, we can give ideas on how to balance it. I am sure the devs already have ideas for their major releases. This list of ideas makes this game a PC MMO, not a phone one.

Exactly. If I wanted any of this stuff, I would just quit PL and play EQ (which I dislike) or WoW.

[Ogediah]

I just want to kill a boss and get the item.

Thats not an MMO. That's a Co-op hack and slash game.



So let's see how the planned additions work before we start requesting more stuff.

I dont agree with everything in this "review", but I think there are some good points made. There was alot of complexity in what was posted and could be confusing for some. Why do you think there is a suggestion and feedback forum?


Exactly. If I wanted any of this stuff, I would just quit PL and play EQ (which I dislike) or WoW.

I'd love to see you boot up WoW on your iphone.


The reason I disagree with almost all of is because of the memory it can take up.

How many other games will you really be playing after this? Thats a terrible reason. I don't how anyone can take you seriously anyways... I mean you stole your parents credit card and spent 1 thousand dollars on gold.

[flaimdude]

I agree. :)

[Banned]

Thats not an MMO. That's a Co-op hack and slash game.




I dont agree with everything in this "review", but I think there are some good points made. There was alot of complexity in what was posted and could be confusing for some. Why do you think there is a suggestion and feedback forum?



I'd love to see you boot up WoW on your iphone.



How many other games will you really be playing after this? Thats a terrible reason. I don't how anyone can take you seriously anyways... I mean you stole your parents credit card and spent 1 thousand dollars on gold.

You will be able to play WoW on the iPhone once Onlive comes around.

[Izbar]

Really awesome ideas here, would love a 10 man raid that would require some thinking. Something that would have to be fixed is drops though. That to me is the reason that swamps is still so easy because otherwise we would be spending 30 min for orange and green drops. If they gauranteed a pink or purple drop every boss kill then making them really hard would make more sense as it is though you have to kill them multiple times before you get a look at anything worth having. just my 2 cents, awesome post bring on the pure healing class!!!!

[FeralDruid]

Feedback is great, but these look less like feedback and more like expectations or demands.

If you honestly want a full MMO experience, go back to gaming on a desktop and find your fix with WoW, EQ etc.

[Diz]

First off, I've socialized and played both PvP and PvE with Xanthia and other Venom members. So I fully respect both the intentions and the rights of all players. However there are several things I take issue with, I'll just rapid-fire back in a bulleted response -

About the thesis part... I don't think saying that you speak for the community is a fair statement. It's obviously a very niche group of players that would say they agree with the entire declaration. There are a lot of different things brought up in the OP to say that "the loyal trustworthy etc" members have gotten together to discuss this. It's more like, a particular segment of the playerbase speaking on behalf of a lot of others, who for various reasons have not made an attempt to voice their opinion[s].

Concerning the first PvP bullet - While I agree that the combat isn't as lengthy as I would like, I think it allows for simple strategies and coordination. Of course, PvP as a whole is a floundering fish out of water at this point, but it could become something special with focused and proper refinement. Now, to say that damage mitigation in PvP is a bad thing is flat out wrong. There are very few non-sandbox MMOs that feature universal damage numbers. It's just not that common. Due to the fact that any/all AI mobs in all MMOs are running static scripts that can be overcome with experience + strat + coordination, it is difficult to empower the AI without cheesing their stats up. Honestly, it's just not easy to make a game with balanced numbers for PvP and PvE. Damage mitigation, in some form [currently in PvP] is almost a necessary evil given the fundamentals of this game. I don't see how any monster in any dungeon is going to pose a serious threat without having 1000% the health/mana of a comparably leveled player. When you take the PvE out of the equation and are left with PvP combat numbers, it is obvious that the numbers were designed to reflect the difficulty of currently-end game monsters. The simplest way of nerfing down those numbers is damage mitigation. There are other ways of dealing with it, such as Armor buffing, cooldown changes, crit mechanics, diminishing returns, a resilience system, etc. But as it stands, damage mitigation was probably the quickest and easiest way to get PvP in our hands. With regards to healing, I think a lot of that could be overcome by tweaking the Enchantress slightly to allow for more tactical healing and utility - think something like HoT [heal over time] and the possible changes in playstyles, tactics, and coordination this could bring.

Hybrids - Look. I get it. Hybrids are the second, lesser reason why I am not even PvPing in PL [the first being the horrendous lag / frame rate stutter since a couple patches ago]. I get it. When you have a R/P/S game with variables in the given classes, it is going to exacerbate any nuance in balance because each class has the capability to capture almost any 'overpowered' tactic. If there is a problem with say, BOWS, the fact that each class has access to BOWS will cause any current imbalance regarding BOWS to become extrapolated across all classes, not just the Archer [unless the imbalance is a combination of BOW and in this case Archer SKILL COOLDOWN]. With the current system, it simply means that any imbalanced ability can be capitalized upon by ANY player, if they have the resources to obtain that capability at its highest potential. It is this seizing of potential imbalances that causes issues between classes, but really - if they can use X, chances are you can, too. The problem I have with that personally, and I suspect a lot of others do, is that they don't like that every player and class can seize upon any weapon / stat build / gear imbalance, thus almost FORCING you to do the same. Players in general do not like having their hands FORCED into play. Nobody plays poker where you are given no option to fold or raise. Nobody likes being FORCED to buy Baltic in Monopoly. Players are essentially FORCED to build certain ways regardless of class, if certain universal motivators are potentially exploited to powergame or imbalance certain aspects of the game.

Regarding stat distribution - Now, if a system as briefly described was in place, then perhaps changing the PvE -> PvP damage mitigation would be a good idea. If, like in the example, bears had 860 hps if they dumped massive points into STR speccing, then I can see tweaking that PvP dmg mitigation being a great idea. But as it stands, this looks like rainbows and leprechaun stuff. Not saying it's a bad idea, just, currently unfeasible.

Armor - doing 0-10 damage is unsettling, yes, it's one reason my Zombie h/s tank mage spec is shelved as the dust settles from 1.2... Personally I think hard numbered research is needed with transparency for the playerbase to scour over and get a foothold on before we start talking about that. It's sort of funny how a lot of number crunching has been done from everything from diff weapons to different specs to crits and hit %s... and not a lot of research on the mitigation itself, like dodge and armor and buffs/debuffs. More math needed to really call upon Armor in a legitimate context.

Invites, meh. Leads to elitism / exclusivity. Also leads to less annoying people joining instances. I'm up in the air on this one, don't care either way.

PvE farming - I will be frank on this one since I already gave an incredibly detailed explanation of the pratfalls of unabated runaway farming. Lemme just say this - if farming is going to be in the game, it needs to be worthwhile. As it stands, it just decreases the average players life-cycle within the game and ruins any motivation to play the game properly [and thus receive a much longer replay value from the game for said player]. Farming should be an explicit format, clearly defined, and not left to poison the actual full PvE [joining 20 maps to find a real group, etc].

Guilds - This is not a Darkfall clone, this is not an Age of Conan clone, the biggest static impact a player or group of players should have on the game itself is housing, and it should scale regarding how much you are willing to farm for it, relative potential farming power [# of players in guild willing to chip in for that goal, etc], and also a glass ceiling to keep the nonfactors in check. These are the three things necessary to bulwark against elitism. This is clearly not an elitist game, it's casual almost to a fault [currently]. If the current playerbase was to jump on a guild-based bandwagon, then I think these guild quest and rank ideas would possibly hold more water. But currently, I think that is just a way for a group of no-lifers to say they're better than other players without actually proving it within the game [ala PvP].

Regarding removal of player dictated stats - Any game that forces you to place stats somewhere is a game that is less fun than a game that allows the player to place stats at their discretion. Non-linear development provides for a much greater immersion in the persona of the character itself [since you are deciding the way it develops] and provides a much more stratified playerbase that helps strengthen the notion of individuality in a game which is severely lacking in that "can I be unique?" area. Anything that leads to imbalance should be potentially cut off to avoid exploitation [via "build-of-the-month" players]. Simple.

Crafting - Not even looking it over. Any game can benefit from crafting as long it is impossible to farm resources for crafting unattended. Please read the previous sentence three times, as it is the entire key to keeping a crafting system from ruining the economy and a myriad of other areas.

10 Man Raids - Why not. PvE is way too easy as it stands and true "uber" gear should be a lot more difficult to obtain - I'm sorry 8 year old kids who run willy-nilly into boss groups, but that's the truth.

Achievement Points - Meh. I'd rather see a "This character is XYZ days old" feature in the paperdoll UI when clicking on a player.

If you really want class-specific gear, thus dampening motivation to go hybrid, it should at least provide perks / procs that are universal, providing use in both PvE and PvP.

No disrespect was intended in this post and I find this thread to be highly informative of both the current feeling of the playerbase in the foreseeable future, and potentially amazing in long-term speculation.

[SlipperyJim]

Thats not an MMO. That's a Co-op hack and slash game.
I think you took my quote out of context. You quoted me as saying:

I just want to kill a boss and get the item.
However, that statement was made in the larger context of crafting. I don't want my entire PL experience to be limited to "kill boss, get lewtz". As you wrote, that would basically be co-op hack and slash. Co-op hack and slash can be fun, but PL can be a little more than that. However, I don't want PL to be an economics simulator, a blacksmith simulator, or a weaving simulator. I don't like crafting very much. It's very hard to balance, and it adds a high level of either complexity or tedium (possibly both) to every game in which I've seen it done.

I don't object to other MMO aspects. In fact, I'm quite excited by the Devs' plans for increased character customization. I'm hoping that my bear can change his fur color, my chicken can get a crest, and my elf can tailor her wardrobe a bit. As long as I don't have to dive into some crazy crafting system to do it....


I dont agree with everything in this "review", but I think there are some good points made. There was alot of complexity in what was posted and could be confusing for some. Why do you think there is a suggestion and feedback forum?
Oh, I'm not disputing Venom's right to post their suggestions here. As you wrote, this forum has a purpose, and the Venom Guild's post is within the guidelines of that purpose. They made (numerous) suggestions for the Devs to consider. I'm not disputing their right to do so.

I'm simply disagreeing with the content of those suggestions. If I understand correctly, this forum is not just for people to post suggestions, but also for people to debate those suggestions. Since I disagree with most of Venom's ideas, I am joining the debate.

[Xanthia]

Ok, notice i said this was being written mainly by myself and Azrael and with assistance of the Venom members. That would be the community I speak of. Don't read between the lines. BTW no harm taken just replying how I feel and no offense to anything you wrote and I hope none is taken in this message.

Hybrids - if you make players just stay with-in the confines of their class, if they had a lot of options in their class then there would be a lot of diversity within that class, meaning that there would be MULTIPLE builds for 1 class. Honestly, no one would be making you play it one way or another, however there should be SIGNIFICANT HUGE LARGE stat deductions to players using armor/weapons from a different class. This is what makes PvP possible to be balanced.

Stat Distribution - you would place your stats in Achievement Points which would ultimately be the same thing, however you would get a set number of Health, Mana, Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence per level but then get to place points in your skill tree to design your character how you wanted it. The reason that you should have a set stat distribution is so that the game can be balanced and this also will place a lot more emphasis on how skilled the player is and not as much about what is the build of the month.

Invites - the only reason I want this is so that I can make a passworded game and only have players I want in the game, like I don't want to make a game have Azrael join the game then ALL of his friends want to join, when I only want to group with Azrael and have to kick everyone else and listen to why they should be allowed in. How about a compromise.....There are 2 types of passworded games. Secure and Unsecured passworded games. In secure Passworded games you would have to provide the password to enter the game no matter if you were friends with someone in the game. Unsecured would be how the games are not, anyone who is on friends list can join. I think that is very fair and makes sense.

PvE Farming - I AGREE 100% make players play all the zones, but GUARANTEE a pink at the end of it!!!!!!!

Guilds - I really like you and I don't want any of this to change it, however when you said this is a way for no-lifers to say they are better than other players really kinda pissed me off, just because a guild can afford this type of guild hall does not mean that they have no life or are claiming to be better than they are. I think that statement was extremely uncalled for. Ok, done with that :)
If the players who play the most and accumulate the most money do not have a way to prove that they do that, then they will get bored and not way to do that..so why not make guild halls so expensive. The casual players are still able to have a guild hall, they will just have to work to get it, why should we make things easy for the casual players in return make the hardcore players bored, why not make hard for both but make all guild hall levels beneficial and capable of same thing just make the higher guild hall levels more prestigious or have more bells and whistles, but all 3 would still have the same core items and purposes.

Player Dictated Stats- I already went over.

Crafting - I agree!

10 man raids - thank God someone else is sick of 10 year olds......

Achievement points would not be something that ppl would like brag about, this is a way to place points into Skill Tree's I think you read this incorrectly.

Thanks would love to hear back Diz

[Xanthia]

However, that statement was made in the larger context of crafting. I don't want my entire PL experience to be limited to "kill boss, get lewtz". As you wrote, that would basically be co-op hack and slash. Co-op hack and slash can be fun, but PL can be a little more than that. However, I don't want PL to be an economics simulator, a blacksmith simulator, or a weaving simulator. I don't like crafting very much. It's very hard to balance, and it adds a high level of either complexity or tedium (possibly both) to every game in which I've seen it done.



Crafting does not have to be a bad thing, this will still enable you to have all the items that all the crafters have you will just have to buy them, like go to the auction house and purchase them, and they will be competitive prices Obviously because a lot of players LOVE to craft. So, don't look at it so negative look at it as a way to allow you to have more things in game and allow you character to embrace the crafting system without having to craft. :)

[Xanthia]

DEV's can we get some ideas of what yall are thinking about this.....did we hit the mark on anything....did we go way off chart? I know it is completely up to you to decide if you want to correspond back, however there are a lot of ideas thrown around here and would LOVE to hear from you all.

http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj401/camodawg/Xanthiasig-1.png

[Diz]

Ok, notice i said this was being written mainly by myself and Azrael and with assistance of the Venom members. That would be the community I speak of. Don't read between the lines. BTW no harm taken just replying how I feel and no offense to anything you wrote and I hope none is taken in this message.

Hybrids - if you make players just stay with-in the confines of their class, if they had a lot of options in their class then there would be a lot of diversity within that class, meaning that there would be MULTIPLE builds for 1 class. Honestly, no one would be making you play it one way or another, however there should be SIGNIFICANT HUGE LARGE stat deductions to players using armor/weapons from a different class. This is what makes PvP possible to be balanced.

Stat Distribution - you would place your stats in Achievement Points which would ultimately be the same thing, however you would get a set number of Health, Mana, Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence per level but then get to place points in your skill tree to design your character how you wanted it. The reason that you should have a set stat distribution is so that the game can be balanced and this also will place a lot more emphasis on how skilled the player is and not as much about what is the build of the month.

Invites - the only reason I want this is so that I can make a passworded game and only have players I want in the game, like I don't want to make a game have Azrael join the game then ALL of his friends want to join, when I only want to group with Azrael and have to kick everyone else and listen to why they should be allowed in. How about a compromise.....There are 2 types of passworded games. Secure and Unsecured passworded games. In secure Passworded games you would have to provide the password to enter the game no matter if you were friends with someone in the game. Unsecured would be how the games are not, anyone who is on friends list can join. I think that is very fair and makes sense.

PvE Farming - I AGREE 100% make players play all the zones, but GUARANTEE a pink at the end of it!!!!!!!

Guilds - I really like you and I don't want any of this to change it, however when you said this is a way for no-lifers to say they are better than other players really kinda pissed me off, just because a guild can afford this type of guild hall does not mean that they have no life or are claiming to be better than they are. I think that statement was extremely uncalled for. Ok, done with that :)
If the players who play the most and accumulate the most money do not have a way to prove that they do that, then they will get bored and not way to do that..so why not make guild halls so expensive. The casual players are still able to have a guild hall, they will just have to work to get it, why should we make things easy for the casual players in return make the hardcore players bored, why not make hard for both but make all guild hall levels beneficial and capable of same thing just make the higher guild hall levels more prestigious or have more bells and whistles, but all 3 would still have the same core items and purposes.

Player Dictated Stats- I already went over.

Crafting - I agree!

10 man raids - thank God someone else is sick of 10 year olds......

Achievement points would not be something that ppl would like brag about, this is a way to place points into Skill Tree's I think you read this incorrectly.

Thanks would love to hear back Diz

Ok, some quick retorts Xan -

Regarding your response to my response to your thesis part... if you meant "some Venom peeps" as the "the loyal, engaged, and trustworthy community members and beta testers of the game", then it could perhaps use some clarification.

Hybrids comment - Sure, if individual classes had more skills and different ways of speccing, then yes - hybrids would lose some allure in a meta sense. Hybrids wouldn't be as intriguing. Possibly in a practical sense, hybrids would go down in value if each class was made to be more 'tooly' so to speak. But on one hand, this is a good idea, and on the other hand you're advocating for more classes. These are two different ways and present two completely different sets of variables to balance in all aspects of gameplay.

Stat distribution comment - Achievements Points, again my response is same as above - now you're dealing with a whole different ballgame than the other options. None of them are really "easy" fixes.

Invites - I understand exactly what you're saying, I think I'm speaking too much in a meta sense to be really clear in what I'm saying, but - honestly, changing the accessibility of games in the manners you speak of would increase exclusivity and also lower the 'annoyance' of random people joining. I don't really care but I feel this wasn't understood in a bird's eye perspective. I don't care either way, random joiners can either get booted in the current setup and I wouldn't care or there can be a change to the way people can join games. Either way is gravy, but the ladder option does turn the elitism up a notch.

PvE farming - guaranteed pinks is fine, I guess. It is a casual game it's not like it's WoW [or whatever] where you need to farm X boss for 3 months to even see Y item [and then have Z chance of winning your roll for it (thank god I never played any MMO with a DKP guild)]. As long as it doesn't ramp up to the point where there are spreadsheet XL files that show who gets what and when, then I'm fine with PvE going the whole nine yards for the "gear" oriented players. Pink out all you want, people...

Guilds - No-lifers? Well, look at it realistically. Look at it the way you do when you're actually playing the game, man. IF guilds were in the game, as of 1.2, there wouldn't be a whole lot for them to do to prove they are better or more competitive or made up of higher quality players EXCEPT by defeating other guilds/clans/groups in PvP. That's it. There is no other way to compare the relative strength and skills of groups in any way except for PvP. And the game is so young and the strats are so unrefined, and THEN you throw in the wild card of PvP in its infant stage... and it's obvious, at least to me, that "guilds" would be an almost hollow venture in all aspects. They would simply facilitate quicker communication, help keep the guild structurally organized, and be e-peen contests. The e-peen contests would only consist of primitive PvP fights. Guilds could also do in-house pink farming, but that has zero direct impact on the meta-guild level. The only way guilds would be able to truly interact currently is in gimp PvP. Now, if housing was in, it would need to have an actual dynamic that fluctuates to reflect the current standing of a guild or their potential will-to-power. There is no meter of will-to-power in the game nor is there a playing field in which it would be used. If "gear" was more powerful, more rare, and more difficult to obtain from PvE, then possibly will-to-power could be reflected in PvP. But considering that almost everybody in PvP is wearing the same end-game gear, there is not a practical way of telling "who is more powerful". If the same group was being judged and simply had a tag of [Venom] above their head, it would still be impractical in trying to decide "who is more powerful" regardless of the tag or not. Guild housing / halls would simply be a gold / time sink, in the current game state. Period. There would be nothing except a hollow notifier to anyone passing by that a group of players had seriously WTFPOWERGAMED OUT and dropped a boatload of gold to wave the ol' e-peen. I'm not saying this is bad. I'm not saying it is good. What I am saying is that, without PURPOSE, then guild housing would have no reason to exist in the current game format. A new dynamic, that would draw the will-to-power out of groups and motivate them to obtain such a high-end goal as a previously-arbitrary "Guild Hall Level 3" would be epic. But it would take some serious foresight and impeccable implementation to place in the game without turning everything upside-down and stratifying a lot of the player base. It's not a big deal if it was put in now, later, or never, but there would need to be a purpose [like the one you briefly defined] and it would need to be a sustainable motivator for being such a monumental sink.

Crafting is either hit or miss because it completely impacts every player, either directly or indirectly, in an economic sense. Unattended resource gathering can ruin a game by itself. Literally.

10 man raids - Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of amazingly skillful kids who play games... I'm just saying, the vast majority of players are immature greenhorns who have no idea what is going on around them. Situational awareness in this game, in a holistic community perspective, is severely lacking. A few scattered people understand the game but for the most part, there are a LOT of random... noobs who are simply winging it blindly. But that's cool, it's sort of expected, it's a casual [semi]-free mobile game.

I wasn't reading Achivement Point idea incorrectly, I was just trying to steer around that because of reasons I explained earlier in this particular post. It's just another option of a messy, sloppy road that would need to be checked out hardcore before considering as a real viable route to the PROMISED LAND [aka balanced PvP].

Holla at your novel-writing boy!

[Xanthia]

Lol, Diz so after all of that. You were basically on the fence about everything, you had 1 foot on 1 side and 1 food on the other. No real stance just parameters for if this happens. Yes, guild housing right now would be a e-peen contest, but then again what are you doing playing a MMO? E-peen? Yea, all in all everything is just that. So, at least give us hardcore group something to do....I mean whenever one warrior is able to solo the entire final zone for all the bosses with the entire zone of croc's following, it's time for some new content :)

Then again these are just suggestions, however I would love for some DEV action here......seeing as how they reply to all the other threads in this forums usually...:)

[Diz]

Xan, I am just a simple player of Pocket Legends. I can only offer input based upon what I would like to see in the game, and what I feel the community at large would like to see in the game. Pocket Legends, being so young and new... and me, having played just a month or two by my lonesome... I fear I have no claim to either side of the fence. The stakes are too low and the options too many for me to create a picket sign and advocate this or that. About the only thing I have felt strong enough to truly voice my opinion on are the problems that popped up from Frogmar farming.

I've been helping to create an actual MMO for over a year and a half, and the one thing that becomes more and more obvious to me is this - every decision you make regarding the game, big or small, can have unforseen effects, short-term or long-term, for better or worse. It is absolutely critical that each option be weighed and considered, especially in the developmental stages or right after the launch of something big [like PvP in 1.2].

I think there are a lot of possible options that could be made for the game, some good, some bad, but most are mixed. So in my honest opinion, yes, I feel that I would rather help to define parameters rather than pick a side and made a stand.

Sure, a lot of MMOs is e-peenery. Comes with the territory. I find nothing about the game [yet] worth sticking mine out for, though. But I hear the train coming... and when it comes, we're either going to be on it or we aren't. If I had to make a prediction, I'd say I'll be on the train. I gotta see where this is going... Woo wooooooo

[Thelonearcher]

Yet again I will say it's not done yet. It's not even a full game yet. So don't overthink yourself that randomly the developers will make alot of changes like some of these. The people always have the power but for now we don't. The most we can do is help the devs and tell the problems with the game (bugs) not problems with stats skills or items weapons etc, or just to benefite your character. The devs will obviously make tons of changes. But first there focus is on finishing the game. I guarentee you guys will have almost, no suggegtions when it's complete. Some of these ideas people don't like so people will quite if it was like that(suggegtions that benefit a small group of people not good) And think of the time it takes to put stuff in the game and time for apple to approve most of it. And how many devs are there 5? And how long has it been since it was released 2 months -_- some games take a year or more to make and it's already awesome. Wow and gw don't need approval by anyone so be pacient and let the game be finished. And then if there's stuff that's not added that may be a great idea, then is the best time to make big suggegtions like this.

[Xanthia]

Yet again I will say it's not done yet. It's not even a full game yet. So don't overthink yourself that randomly the developers will make alot of changes like some of these. The people always have the power but for now we don't. The most we can do is help the devs and tell the problems with the game (bugs) not problems with stats skills or items weapons etc, or just to benefite your character. The devs will obviously make tons of changes. But first there focus is on finishing the game. I guarentee you guys will have almost, no suggegtions when it's complete. Some of these ideas people don't like so people will quite if it was like that(suggegtions that benefit a small group of people not good) And think of the time it takes to put stuff in the game and time for apple to approve most of it. And how many devs are there 5? And how long has it been since it was released 2 months -_- some games take a year or more to make and it's already awesome. Wow and gw don't need approval by anyone so be pacient and let the game be finished. And then if there's stuff that's not added that may be a great idea, then is the best time to make big suggegtions like this.


Ok, This is a suggestion forum, I understand that we are suggesting something very large, however this is where this type of input is supposed to go. So, please don't lecture me on being patient and waiting on things, I have probably been playing MMO's longer then you have been alive.

[Ogediah]

I'm simply disagreeing with the content of those suggestions. If I understand correctly, this forum is not just for people to post suggestions, but also for people to debate those suggestions. Since I disagree with most of Venom's ideas, I am joining the debate.

You now provided some answer's. You did not debate before, you simply shut down OP and then said we shouldn't be making anymore suggestions until the devs "todo list" is complete.

[SlipperyJim]

You now provided some answer's. You did not debate before, you simply shut down OP and then said we shouldn't be making anymore suggestions until the devs "todo list" is complete.
As your post is the 42nd post in this thread, I think it's fair to say that I didn't "shut down" anything. In fact, by expressing my dissent, I believe that I opened up debate. On the other hand, maybe the debate would have opened without me, and I'm just being big-headed.... ;)

Anyway, to get back on topic: One of the reasons that I like PL (when I don't play many other MMOs) is that PL is a simple, casual game. Most of Venom's suggestions would increase either the complexity or the tedium of PL. Therefore, I oppose these suggestions. I don't want to play WOW or EQ on my iPhone. I want to play a casual, simple MMO. Pocket Legends is just such a game.

[Kirei]

Hear Hear, *claps hands for about 10 seconds*

[Azrael]

As your post is the 42nd post in this thread, I think it's fair to say that I didn't "shut down" anything. In fact, by expressing my dissent, I believe that I opened up debate. On the other hand, maybe the debate would have opened without me, and I'm just being big-headed.... ;)

Anyway, to get back on topic: One of the reasons that I like PL (when I don't play many other MMOs) is that PL is a simple, casual game. Most of Venom's suggestions would increase either the complexity or the tedium of PL. Therefore, I oppose these suggestions. I don't want to play WOW or EQ on my iPhone. I want to play a casual, simple MMO. Pocket Legends is just such a game.

Your entitled to your opinion and i'm sure the devs will listen to your ideas as well.
That said i don't see how removing hybrids in favor of more classes, giving str and intelligence better statistic enhancements per point spent, and generally balancing pvp would make the game more complex. Thats just to name a few....

[Ogediah]

As your post is the 42nd post in this thread, I think it's fair to say that I didn't "shut down" anything. In fact, by expressing my dissent, I believe that I opened up debate. On the other hand, maybe the debate would have opened without me, and I'm just being big-headed.... ;)

;)



Anyway, to get back on topic: One of the reasons that I like PL (when I don't play many other MMOs) is that PL is a simple, casual game. Most of Venom's suggestions would increase either the complexity or the tedium of PL. Therefore, I oppose these suggestions. I don't want to play WOW or EQ on my iPhone. I want to play a casual, simple MMO. Pocket Legends is just such a game.

Personally i would like to see somewhat of a greater complexity. as i have already said, i feel as though currently this game is merely more than a coop hack and slash. we farm, we level. End of game.

Please excuse my drunken typos, if any :)

[Furrawn]

Like Banned, if most of these changes were implemented, I would stop playing PL. As for hybrids, they add interest to the game. I don't want a narrow character. I want some creative freedom to make a character MY character.

Millions for a guild is ridiculous. There are all kinds of players out there. Why should they have to pay millions to have a guild so they can have companionship and gaming buddies? Guilds should be accessible rather than ONLY available to a couple of elite groups who may well espouse values that others don't have.

I LIKE that my friends can join a passworded game- that's why they are my FRIENDS. I wouldn't want that to change. Maybe a setting could be implemented in options so we can choose to allow friends to freely join our passworded games or not.

Just my humble opinion.
I know for a fact you'll disapprove of my guild... But as long as the guild members are happy and playing well - isn't that ok? And isn't the point of having different guilds to allow like-minded individuals to create a community within the game?

All the Venom Guild suggested changes sound a bit like one guild bossing everyone else around by trying to say how EVERYONE should play rather than just how Venom guild members should play.

If I misunderstood, I'm truly sorry.

[Azrael]

All the Venom Guild suggested changes sound a bit like one guild bossing everyone else around by trying to say how EVERYONE should play rather than just how Venom guild members should play.

If I misunderstood, I'm truly sorry.

Apology accepted.

[Xanthia]

Apology accepted.

Agreed.........

[Furrawn]

Wow.

I was NOT apologizing for saying that you are trying to decide how the game should be played by EVERYONE (meaning players not in the Venom Guild) and that it is wrong to do that. NO guild should have the right to decide how the game should run for everyone- ESP making ironclad determinations about things like hybrids and ludicrous guild costs.

I was apologizing if I misunderstood the "bossiness" that i felt was underlying the long Venom Guild post.

You do realize, don't you, that a PL world that is just Venom-sanctioned-and-determined would be a narrow and colorless imitation of the broad interesting game that many of us hope PL continues to grow into...

[Xanthia]

Wow.

I was NOT apologizing for saying that you are trying to decide how the game should be played by EVERYONE (meaning players not in the Venom Guild) and that it is wrong to do that. NO guild should have the right to decide how the game should run for everyone- ESP making ironclad determinations about things like hybrids and ludicrous guild costs.

I was apologizing if I misunderstood the "bossiness" that i felt was underlying the long Venom Guild post.

You do realize, don't you, that a PL world that is just Venom-sanctioned-and-determined would be a narrow and colorless imitation of the broad interesting game that many of us hope PL continues to grow into...

Look, you have no right to say that about our post, this is a SUGGESTION FORUM, if you don't like it that is fine, but don't go telling us that we are deciding how things are going to be, we made a suggestion post! If you don't like it thats fine, but don't go saying that we are bossing other guilds around.

[Furrawn]

Look, you have no right to say that about our post, this is a SUGGESTION FORUM, if you don't like it that is fine, but don't go telling us that we are deciding how things are going to be, we made a suggestion post! If you don't like it thats fine, but don't go saying that we are bossing other guilds around.


Usually when a thread is posted in suggestions/feedback, it's expected that other players will chime in with their opinion about the suggestion. The tone of voice in the Venom Guild manifest felt a bit dictatorial. Some Venom Guild's suggestions didn't seem fair to other players with different interests or different playing habits. Like no hybrids or no guild without FIVE MILLION. Making it so hard to get a guild makes it exclusionary for other players who don't play enough to come up with five million. It is bossing other guilds around if your suggestion makes guilds out of reach for even dedicated players like myself. So I responded with feedback.

I'm sorry feedback isn't okay unless it agrees with you.

[Advance]

Although I do think that 5 million for guild forming is a tad high, but then that means that another form of test must be passed to form a guild.

BUT, the guild hall must have a ridiculous price tag attached to them (5million level 1, 10 level 2, 30 level 3) as to have a glass ceiling, and to keep the non-factors in check.

[Xanthia]

Usually when a thread is posted in suggestions/feedback, it's expected that other players will chime in with their opinion about the suggestion. The tone of voice in the Venom Guild manifest felt a bit dictatorial. Some Venom Guild's suggestions didn't seem fair to other players with different interests or different playing habits. Like no hybrids or no guild without FIVE MILLION. Making it so hard to get a guild makes it exclusionary for other players who don't play enough to come up with five million. It is bossing other guilds around if your suggestion makes guilds out of reach for even dedicated players like myself. So I responded with feedback.

I'm sorry feedback isn't okay unless it agrees with you.

Look, don't be a smart ***, I never said the feedback had to agree with me! However, nothing we suggested was done that way to look like a dictator. Hybrids will benefit everyone not just Venom, lol! This will expand the game so that it can be a lot more diverse. Also with the guild price, you are like the 2nd person to think it is individual effort, obviously if you understood my post you would understand that a guild is not an individual, it is a group of players. Honestly if everyone pitches in a few hundred thousand then you can have one in no time. Also the prices that I posted are low in my opinion. Again, we are not bossing other guilds around if we suggest something, lol, please think about what you write before you write it.

[Banned]

5 million is WAY to much. Thelonearcher archer wasted half a grand on only 1 million. And I don't think most people are going to be able to get enough players to donate a total of 5 million for some guild. Maybe popular guilds like Venom and Legends can do it, but for the average guy that just wants to start a guild for him and a few of his buddies, it just ain't gonna happen.

[Advance]

Just becuase he wasted half a grand on a million doesnt mean the rest of us doesnt have that much legitimately. And since we're already singling out people to use as examples, I for one, am willing to donate to a total of 5 million.

[Furrawn]

Look, don't be a smart ***, I never said the feedback had to agree with me! However, nothing we suggested was done that way to look like a dictator. Hybrids will benefit everyone not just Venom, lol! This will expand the game so that it can be a lot more diverse. Also with the guild price, you are like the 2nd person to think it is individual effort, obviously if you understood my post you would understand that a guild is not an individual, it is a group of players. Honestly if everyone pitches in a few hundred thousand then you can have one in no time. Also the prices that I posted are low in my opinion. Again, we are not bossing other guilds around if we suggest something, lol, please think about what you write before you write it.

I know a guild is a group. I do read. As you know, "guild" is a word in the outside world. I did NOT think the five million would be an individual effort. That would be insane. But I do know that players have different wants. Not everyone wants a huge guild. A smaller guild would find it almost impossible to come up with five million. It's exclusionary and unfair to players who don't want the same thing from their guild that you want from yours. Fair would be to put a price to be paid forth for each guild member with a decent overall minimum amount to create a guild (maybe half a million). Just my opinion.

Sorry about the hybrids. I must have misunderstood. I thought the post was calling for the creativity players show, in choosing to be odd mixes (like an archer Mage) and choosing weapons to create a unique character, to be abolished in favor of more limited character classes that would each be limited to a specific type of arsenal.

[Banned]

Just becuase he wasted half a grand on a million doesnt mean the rest of us doesnt have that much legitimately. And since we're already singling out people to use as examples, I for one, am willing to donate to a total of 5 million.

When did I say no one had it legitimately? I just used it as an example to show how large of an amount it really is.

And like I said, it's going to be hard to find players like you, that are willing to even donate anything.

[Xanthia]

When did I say no one had it legitimately? I just used it as an example to show how large of an amount it really is.

And like I said, it's going to be hard to find players like you, that are willing to even donate anything.

Well, I disagree 5 million is really not that much, also think about what would happen if making a guild was easy, players would make them just to make them, and there would be no prestige of making a guild or no work to get one going and keep it going. IT IS A LOT OF WORK!!!!!!



I know a guild is a group. I do read. As you know, "guild" is a word in the outside world. I did NOT think the five million would be an individual effort. That would be insane. But I do know that players have different wants. Not everyone wants a huge guild. A smaller guild would find it almost impossible to come up with five million. It's exclusionary and unfair to players who don't want the same thing from their guild that you want from yours. Fair would be to put a price to be paid forth for each guild member with a decent overall minimum amount to create a guild (maybe half a million). Just my opinion.

Sorry about the hybrids. I must have misunderstood. I thought the post was calling for the creativity players show, in choosing to be odd mixes (like an archer Mage) and choosing weapons to create a unique character, to be abolished in favor of more limited character classes that would each be limited to a specific type of arsenal.

Well, I thank you for rephrasing your statement, however you were wrong about saying that my guild was large, currently we are at 8 members, with a few applicants. It doesnt take a large guild to pay that price. :)

[Mobdropper]

I agree with Furrawn, the wording in the post(s) got to the point of venom cutting the pie and getting first pick of the slices. I also understand you all probably did not mean for it to come across that way, but regardless it was worded very strongly.

The crafting would be cool, but the guild houses are way over priced. A guild should cost something yes, or require an item from a difficult boss to create - but not be only for those that horde gold/items 24/7. Having guild levels is a good idea, as ppl play or xp, and getting additional xp for the guild - but perhaps that should be individual? Thus, if an individual leaves the guild, the guild would be minus that xp, and maybe the player take a 10% hit or something.

I also like the join button nerf, something needs to be done to stop random acquaintances joining a set group.

[Banned]

I get what your saying. I personally don't mind the price, but I just feel bad for the casual players that just wanna start a guild to have easier communication with their farming buddies. Maybe have something where you pay 5 million to get a guild hall, 500 guild member slots, guild bank, and a guild chat channel to go along with your guild. And the casual guys can pay 1 million to get 30 guild member slots and a guild chat channel.

[Furrawn]

Well, I disagree 5 million is really not that much, also think about what would happen if making a guild was easy, players would make them just to make them, and there would be no prestige of making a guild or no work to get one going and keep it going. IT IS A LOT OF WORK!!!!!!




Well, I thank you for rephrasing your statement, however you were wrong about saying that my guild was large, currently we are at 8 members, with a few applicants. It doesnt take a large guild to pay that price. :)

Lol I think that your guild plays differently than some of us though. I play a lot. An hour to three hours a day but I couldn't come up with $500K on my own as my share. I'd feel like I was just playing for gold every second. I don't make anywhere near the money your guild members make:) I could sell things but that's not something I enjoy. I already have a leader for auctions/selling when I make a guild because that's not my strength:)

I agree that it should not be TOO easy... But nor do I think it should be near impossible. Why not half a million to start a guild and dues of 25K for each guild member? And maybe a required minimum percentage of lvl 35s for each guild charter?

Just ideas...


Mobdropper-
Thx:)

As for password games, couldn't the devs maybe make an extra button under password on the create game that says invited so only invited can join that game. Whereas the mere password game is simply restricted to known friends?

[Xanthia]

I get what your saying. I personally don't mind the price, but I just feel bad for the casual players that just wanna start a guild to have easier communication with their farming buddies. Maybe have something where you pay 5 million to get a guild hall, 500 guild member slots, guild bank, and a guild chat channel to go along with your guild. And the casual guys can pay 1 million to get 30 guild member slots and a guild chat channel.

Honestly, guilds are not for just players who want an easier communication. There has to be some anterior motive. I guess if they want to shell out the cash they can have that, but making a guild and being a guild leader is a privilege not a right. This is something that I hope ST will make something worth while and benefit the members, so that the price tag will be able to reflect the worth.

[Justg]

We've all read this post, it offers a lot of great ideas, some controversial ones, and some strong opinions.

Great (if lengthy) communication ;-)

We take everyone's opinions and feedback into consideration, and balance it with our own vision, bandwidth, and priorities.

I'll tell you this though, the sky is the limit for what this game can grow into!

[Xanthia]

We've all read this post, it offers a lot of great ideas, some controversial ones, and some strong opinions.

Great (if lengthy) communication ;-)

We take everyone's opinions and feedback into consideration, and balance it with our own vision, bandwidth, and priorities.

I'll tell you this though, the sky is the limit for what this game can grow into!

THE SKY IS THE LIMIT.......BEST thing I have heard!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kirei]

THE SKY IS THE LIMIT.......BEST thing I have heard!!!!!!!!!!!

you mean since sliced bread of course? right? RIGHT??

[Rebel]

I think that it would be more catchy if you said that Space was the limit considering that you are Spacetime. Just saying :p

[Justg]

lol okay... SPACE is the limit. (Blackstar, anyone?)

[Mobdropper]

Honestly, guilds are not for just players who want an easier communication. There has to be some anterior motive. I guess if they want to shell out the cash they can have that, but making a guild and being a guild leader is a privilege not a right. This is something that I hope ST will make something worth while and benefit the members, so that the price tag will be able to reflect the worth.

As to your first point, I have to strongly strongly disagree. Guilds can be anything to anyone. You can not strike down the hammer and say, 'guilds must be this, guilds must be that.'. That is the same type of language that furrawn was talking about earlier, with Venom thinking that they make the rules. Maybe to YOU guilds are as you stated, but not to everyone. And should people not be allowed to make a guild if they don't conform to your guild creation standards? I think not.

Guilds should not cost cash, never ever. Not unless it's some meager sum like 1,000 gold. Being 'privileged' enough to make and/or lead a guild should not be about how much cash you have, once again - never ever. Some of us should come down off our high horses and consider the casual players and/or people that do not horde gold because they give all their spare items to friends.

I would much rather see a scenario where a group of people has to EARN the ability to make a guild, NOT buy it. Like a set of five maps where a group has to start from the first map and work their way through to the last map, with no skipping allowed, and the last four maps always locked. With different challenges along the way. For example, pots can be used on first two maps but not last three, or can only res at entrance for the first four, and death on the last map requires a revive, etc. Some sort of challenge that will put players skills to the test, NOT their bankrolls. With the final map having a very difficult end boss that drops an item, say a 'totem' that can only be used to make a guild.

Disclaimer:
I do not apologize if my wording was strong.

[Xanthia]

As to your first point, I have to strongly strongly disagree. Guilds can be anything to anyone. You can not strike down the hammer and say, 'guilds must be this, guilds must be that.'. That is the same type of language that furrawn was talking about earlier, with Venom thinking that they make the rules. Maybe to YOU guilds are as you stated, but not to everyone. And should people not be allowed to make a guild if they don't conform to your guild creation standards? I think not.

Guilds should not cost cash, never ever. Not unless it's some meager sum like 1,000 gold. Being 'privileged' enough to make and/or lead a guild should not be about how much cash you have, once again - never ever. Some of us should come down off our high horses and consider the casual players and/or people that do not horde gold because they give all their spare items to friends.

I would much rather see a scenario where a group of people has to EARN the ability to make a guild, NOT buy it. Like a set of five maps where a group has to start from the first map and work their way through to the last map, with no skipping allowed, and the last four maps always locked. With different challenges along the way. For example, pots can be used on first two maps but not last three, or can only res at entrance for the first four, and death on the last map requires a revive, etc. Some sort of challenge that will put players skills to the test, NOT their bankrolls. With the final map having a very difficult end boss that drops an item, say a 'totem' that can only be used to make a guild.

Disclaimer:
I do not apologize if my wording was strong.

Ok, again I am not saying that I make the rules, I am posting my opinion. I don't why there are a few players here who either don't understand what a suggestion forum is for, or don't understand that this is where you voice your opinion the way you want it to be!!!! Honestly, I hate it when games allow TON's of guilds to made because it floods the guild market, and takes away the prestige of being in a guild. I know this is a video game (MMORPG) however if you relate it to life, there is nothing free in life and why should it be that way in the game. Players should not be given every "Privilege" just because they play the game, if players really want to become that Liberal what incentive do hardcore guilds have to want to be the best or have a great guild, if everyone else can have one with VERY MINIMAL effort. Obviously we have two extremely different opinions! Next, guild halls are the target "suggestion" of our post, and why should they be easily obtainable. I know you think you have to account for the casual player, however replay ability is the biggest thing lacking in the game right now, so making things easier does not help that fact. If what your proposing about guilds is that they should be practically free and easily obtainable. This would just lead to everyone have everything again, and everyone would be bored because the casual players would still have everything the hardcore players have. The perfect game can balance hardcore players and casual players needs and wants. Right now this game caters to the casual players, there is absolutely nothing for me to do in the game right now. (I love this game though) To be honest, guilds like ours (Venom) has more of a reason to get frustrated and upset as many of the players have who have expressed their feelings in this post that are casual players. Why? Because this game only caters to casual players, I think players who would say that they would quit or be pissed if the game changed and became more "Complex" or "Hard-core" are honestly being selfish because they have the game strictly made for them currently. Maybe if you were to come over to our side of the fence and see how things were you might have a differing opinion.

Disclaimer:
Wording could have been a lot harsher, however I did not deem necessary.

[Advance]

Although what you might say about guild creation is sound, I don't believe you have to horde gold in order to achieve a sum of 5 million. I do share items, and in return, people share back.

Just like Xanthia said, the current game is TOO easy. End game tier pinks is a matter of a days worth of dedicated farming. Where is the glass ceiling?

This may come across as being elitist, but the non-factors(casual players as you call it) has to stay in line, BEHIND the hardcore players, or else, what's the point of being a hardcore player?

-Adv

[Diz]

Xan I think you underestimate the allure of strong guilds within the community. They lead to healthy competition, too...

[Xanthia]

Xan I think you underestimate the allure of strong guilds within the community. They lead to healthy competition, too...

I do not underestimate them when there is a game structure that allows them to flourish or gives them something to aspire too, however as of right now, there are no guilds (Just stating, I know it has not been released yet) or anything for the hardcore players to do. When this game decides to help cater to this style of players I do think there will be great competition. :)

[Mobdropper]

Ok, again I am not saying that I make the rules, I am posting my opinion. I don't why there are a few players here who either don't understand what a suggestion forum is for, or don't understand that this is where you voice your opinion the way you want it to be!!!!

I don't under why there are a few players here either don't understand what a suggestion and FEEDBACK forum is for, or don't understand that this is where if you voice your opinion, you will get FEEDBACK!!!!


Honestly, guilds are not for just players who want an easier communication. There has to be some anterior motive.

The above quote does not sound like an opinion, which is to what I was referring.


Honestly, I hate it when games allow TON's of guilds to made because it floods the guild market, and takes away the prestige of being in a guild.

You seem very honest, but in what game does semi-easy guild creation not work it self out like the current pink supply/demand? Also, since there is no end game, or boss mob raids available for PL right now, and max of 5 to a pvp map - it would seem that more than Venom should be allowed to exist, imo. Right now, guilds would be max 5-10 people, since if the "guild" is doing something, everyone else will be left out. Hence, there should and will be many guilds.


I know this is a video game (MMORPG) however if you relate it to life, there is nothing free in life and why should it be that way in the game. Players should not be given every "Privilege" just because they play the game, if players really want to become that Liberal what incentive do hardcore guilds have to want to be the best or have a great guild, if everyone else can have one with VERY MINIMAL effort.

Please, let's not relate it to life - unless you can revive Elvis.

Also, how did my post come across as giving everyone every privilege for playing the game? I made a clear scenario, that would actually make it a challenge to a player's skills instead of a player's bank roll - to make a guild.

Although, I do wonder why you think some people should have special or more privileges than anyone else that plays the game? Sitting in town and spamming selling items for gold, does not special make.

I don't know what incentive you have to be the best or have a great guild, but why do you need incentive to try to achieve something you already desire? Also, since when are great or the best guilds measured by the accumulated wealth of the members therein?


Next, guild halls are the target "suggestion" of our post, and why should they be easily obtainable. I know you think you have to account for the casual player, however replay ability is the biggest thing lacking in the game right now, so making things easier does not help that fact.

Errr, not sure I follow. Please explain to me how a guild hall for 5-10 players results in some sort of replay ability? I would think guild halls would lead to less replay ability, since once a group of people has one, they do not need another. By your logic of needing replay ability, the dev's should instead just forget any thoughts of guild halls and focus on something else.


If what your proposing about guilds is that they should be practically free and easily obtainable. This would just lead to everyone have everything again, and everyone would be bored because the casual players would still have everything the hardcore players have.

Free yes, easy no. Since when is not using pots for three levels or only being able to be resed via a revive spell on the last level of a five map dungeon crawl...easy? I'm not suggesting a bunch of level 35's clear forest haven once or anything...


The perfect game can balance hardcore players and casual players needs and wants. Right now this game caters to the casual players, there is absolutely nothing for me to do in the game right now.

It can, and it will be much more balanced for casual players once questing is introduced. I do not believe this game caters toward casual players though, since pink drop rates are less than significant. However, no game can keep up with the needs/desires of hard core gamers. Everyone that does not live/eat/breathe PL would get left too far behind, and the seldom few extreme hard core would be the only ones left playing the game. Dev's simply can not keep up with extreme hard core players. It takes a lot more work to make and test everything, than it does for hard core players to complete.

I believe a perfect game should give hardcore players a challenge and something for casual gamers to strive towards or obtain, but also not limit either play style. If we had some sort of boss mob raids or 10-15 player instances, this would be great for the hard core and casual player.


To be honest, guilds like ours (Venom) has more of a reason to get frustrated and upset as many of the players have who have expressed their feelings in this post that are casual players. Why? Because this game only caters to casual players, I think players who would say that they would quit or be pissed if the game changed and became more "Complex" or "Hard-core" are honestly being selfish because they have the game strictly made for them currently.

Once again, your honesty simply amazes me. Anyway, why get frustrated or upset if the players who gave you feedback happen to be casual players? Every opinion should be seen from all sides, that of the hard core and that of the casual player. I think the people that threaten quitting as a result of the game becoming more complex, may not be familiar with other MMO's and would actually enjoy a bit more depth to the game, ie something else to do besides farm or try to find a pvp game to join. Again, the game is not made for casual players, imo.


Maybe if you were to come over to our side of the fence and see how things were you might have a differing opinion.

No, 'fraid not, I'm not hardcore enough for Venom.

[Azrael]

We've all read this post, it offers a lot of great ideas, some controversial ones, and some strong opinions.

Great (if lengthy) communication ;-)

We take everyone's opinions and feedback into consideration, and balance it with our own vision, bandwidth, and priorities.

I'll tell you this though, the sky is the limit for what this game can grow into!

Thank you for taking the time to read the post.

Edit: @Mobdropper: There is a difference between adding and responding to suggestions, and being contrarian for the sake of it. We are more than happy to hear and respond to your comments. Obviously you disagree with some if not all of the suggestions in the OP, but there is very little constructive comments in your recent posts to respond to.
We are making suggestions to the devs, not to the player base. If you feel threatened or upset by changes that other players propose or simply disagree, let the devs know and post your thoughts. However snide forum flaming doesn't help any case that you make, and doesn't promote a constructive dialogue.

As for the debate that seems to be forming between the game catering to casual or hardcore players, there is no reason the game can't have content for both. Ignoring either player base is bad for the game and bad for business. Personally i think any player should be able to make a guild for instance, but higher guild functions should require more game time/play to unlock.

[Xanthia]

Yea, I do say honest a lot....great job...that really helped your message in that post....

BTW even with no pots playing 5 levels with no REVIVE button, would still be VERY EASY

Also.....I don't know 1 game where the hard core players all have exceeded the dev's, sometimes 1 or 2 guilds can beat the devs to new content, but MOST of the guilds in the game do not even come close.....

The biggest line of BS that you wrote was stating that this game was not catered to casual players, many players both unguilded and guilded including every player in Venom has been DONE with content two weeks after Ancient Swamps came out....there has been nothing else for us to do. So, if you can honestly explain how this game does not cater to casual players, I would love to hear it, but don't just throw off wild statements with no support or validation.

[crookedjay]

X-

Well put and very well thought out. I can't tell you how disappointing it was for me to try to build a main tank (taunt / buff / debuff / self-heal) and realize how useless the pure tank currently is in this game. I leveled mine to 35 and kept his 200 strength anyway, but it is pretty ridiculous how unbalanced the game is. I'm building my third toon now and each one has been a bit of a letdown because of how similar they all are.

Without a tank willing to just dump money into magic pots (something I did for a while then got sick of) there is no real mob strategy. Everyone basically just zergs or clanks every boss. Pretty sad. There is no reason to specialize in anything. Frankly, I can't believe how weak the recast is on Taunt, either. Pretty sad that you're stuck shuffling through Beckon and everything else you have just to keep aggro. One thing I will say after playing in some pretty hardcore raid guilds over the years is that class-specific abilities are the entire point of playing a game like this and something that should never be reconfigurable. Let people keep their respecs and then do away with new ones completely. If you invest in a class, feel free to tweak your stats, but the whole hybrid thing is completely out of control in PL and it wrecks the game balance.

One caution, though. The whole reason I play PL right now is because it is (literally) pick up and play. After years of spending time max leveling / god battling in other MMOs, I can freely say that getting too deep here with stuff like crafting, etc. is probably going to lose more people than it brings to the game. Me included � I have kids now and nowhere near the time to invest. Also � as an iPhone developer, I know how important it is to consider the delivery mechanism here � making this a carbon copy of other MMOs in terms of time invested, etc. is just going to result in a lot fewer players, frankly.

Just my 2p.

[Mobdropper]

Edit: @Mobdropper: There is a difference between adding and responding to suggestions, and being contrarian for the sake of it. We are more than happy to hear and respond to your comments. Obviously you disagree with some if not all of the suggestions in the OP, but there is very little constructive comments in your recent posts to respond to.
We are making suggestions to the devs, not to the player base. If you feel threatened or upset by changes that other players propose or simply disagree, let the devs know and post your thoughts. However snide forum flaming doesn't help any case that you make, and doesn't promote a constructive dialogue.

Perhaps you did not read my posts? As each and every one of them includes constructive criticisim or my "feedback" and counter-opinions. None of my posts make claims without additional options. In fact, I believe my last post has at least half a dozen open questions awaiting your reply.

I understand you are making suggestions to the dev's, not the player base, as is the nature of this forum - and we all in fact are sharing our suggestions for the devs to read. Kind of a mute point really. Anyway, if you did not want the player base to respond, you should have acted accordingly and communicated to the dev's via a different avenue.

None of my posts have been flames, I have not called anyone names or made false claims. If you feel my posts were flames, that's on you =/.

[Mobdropper]

Maybe 5 levels with no revive button would be easy for your guild, but for many players it would present quite a challenge. I have seen many groups constantly wipe to witch or fabio. With 5 levels being so easy for your guild, my point is proven because that is the whole idea, but by no means would it be easy for everyone.

Yes, 1 or 2 guilds of 60-80+ players, ie the few extreme hard core that I previously mentioned.



So, if you can honestly explain how this game does not cater to casual players, I would love to hear it, but don't just throw off wild statements with no support or validation.

I did support my claim, here it is again though, in case you missed it the first time:


I do not believe this game caters toward casual players though, since pink drop rates are less than significant.

If you wish for further validation, I will give that to you as well. Ancient Swamps is a unqiue example, in that there were bugs available to allow for easy farming early after it's release. Then when the bugs were fixed, other opportunities were available for easy farming. Then witch was moved, and players moved to farming lebow. Which resulted in witch and lebow being lowered to mini-boss status, and eventually the implementation of a farming level. If none of the above had been present, everyone would still be clearing for the four bosses and your completion would have taken much longer.

Also, if you define a casual player as someone who only plays for an hour at a time, I have gone many times without having a pink drop for over an hour. Which would mean next to no pinks for the casual player. The more you play, the more pinks you see, ie not catered towards casual players.

Then again, I'm sure the casual players were the ones that were done with ancient swamps early and basically demanded a farm level.

Lastly, please read my posts thoroughly before accusing me of, "throwing off wild statements without support or validation" in the future. Thanks!

[Furrawn]

Advance-
It's a bit demeaning to call casual players "non-factors"... I'm willing to bet that most players spending money on PL are not willing to fill out a work schedule to play even though most of them play daily. If you take away the non-factors, there probably wouldn't be enough money to support further game development.

Xanthia-
A couple of things. I am sure I am what you condescendingly call a casual gamer. However, I was a level 35 within the first week that the swamp campaign came out. I also have made some friends who are serious RPG players on here. I refuse to believe that I count as less than a hardcore gamer.

Why in the world would you say this game CATERS to casual players because you finished the swamp campaign? It's beta. The devs are probably working around the clock sleepless. I would say the game content is what it is because it is in the process of being created. Get in early - be supportive and patient. Whatever the game will or won't be, I'd say casting judgement is way premature.

You said in real life nothing is free. I'd point out that in real life, money is very rarely an adequate measure of worth. Van Gogh sold one painting which he was alive. He was always poor. I guess he couldn't have a guild. That's the thing, yes, guilds deserve to be earned... Can't part of the earning a guild be because of a demonstration of passion, loyalty, and skill?

I don't want a guild for prestige. I respect your right to value that. I do not. I want a guild to have a community of like-minded individuals who love to laugh, think, and work together to play a stellar game.

Maybe my guild won't be known for prestige like Venom.
I hope it does become known as a place of acceptance, caring, camaraderie, and great game playing.

It is NOT less than your guild.
Merely different.

Mobstopper-
I LOVE the idea of a campaign to prove ourselves worthy as a guild!!

AND I died laughing at the revive Elvis comment! LMAO

[Thelonearcher]

Well, I disagree 5 million is really not that much, also think about what would happen if making a guild was easy, players would make them just to make them, and there would be no prestige of making a guild or no work to get one going and keep it going. IT IS A LOT OF WORK!!!!!!

umm xianthia 5 mil what is wrong with you unless you got more then this dont talk with your usless guild price ideas
http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae160/thelonearcher/012aacdb.jpg

[Mobdropper]

That's awesome lone, but sorry, you can't afford a guild hall.

@crookedjay
Thank you for your 2p gov'nah. I believe you summed up a casual players outlook very well. I too wish that close melee classes were useful in swamps. :( I do believe crafting can be made to appeal to casual players though, especially if it is level based like EQ2 like xanthia suggested, but possibly having most materials purchased from vendors and only special crafted items requiring mob drops. Although, in all games, not everyone chooses to craft, but it will make other options available for those who choose to craft. (i heart crafting though so I might be biased, 2nd lv50 sage over all EQ2 severs!)

@furrawn
Very good post, and I'm glad you enjoyed my comment. :)

[Advance]

umm xianthia 5 mil what is wrong with you unless you got more then this dont talk with your usless guild price ideas
http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae160/thelonearcher/012aacdb.jpg

Sorry that people can make money in game without shelling out a grand for it.
Seems to me that your butt hurt becuase 3m doesn't seem like so much when you've spent a grand, and guild halls cost 5m.

[Mobdropper]

Advance, can we please get back to discussing/sharing/debating ideas of the OP before this turns into a flame war and the thread gets locked? :(

[Furrawn]

Sorry that people can make money in game without shelling out a grand for it.
Seems to me that your butt hurt becuase 3m doesn't seem like so much when you've spent a grand, and guild halls cost 5m.

Correction:) Guild Halls do NOT cost five million at this time.
Hopefully, there will be more discussion to come up with a fair and reasonable plan for how to get a guild charter...

Xanthia-
Do you have any suggestions for earning a guild charter besides the five million?
What did you think about Mob's campaign idea?

Lone, i think your 3 million looks good on you:) And you bought the devs some meals so they could eat! Also good:)

[King Richie]

umm xianthia 5 mil what is wrong with you unless you got more then this dont talk with your usless guild price ideas
http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae160/thelonearcher/012aacdb.jpg

Your actually such a looser .. the legends guild has around 10mil but Venom has more gold than you could ever wish for so quiet little looser !

[Furrawn]

Your actually such a looser .. the legends guild has around 10mil but Venom has more gold than you could ever wish for so quiet little looser !

Sorry to ask but what's a looser?

[SlipperyJim]

Wow, I left this thread for a day, and it turned into a serious flamewar. Also, Venom apparently has no respect for casual gamers, and they think that the rest of us (casual gamers) should be inferior to them. I have to say, such attitude might not be an effective recruiting tool for your guild....

As a casual gamer, I greatly appreciate the fact that I can have three endgame characters with a fair amount of pink equipment, and I didn't have to make PL into a second job in order to do it. I play about ninety minutes per day, and my characters are as strong as anyone else's. That's a GOOD thing to me, and it highlights the point that I was trying to make in my posts.

I don't want a game that requires a huge commitment in order to stay competitive. Such commitment is why I don't play other MMOs. PL appealed to me because it doesn't require that commitment.

I used to play a MUD, back about eight years ago. I gave up playing because I realized that I couldn't keep up with the other players. I had a full-time job and a new child. I was already playing the MUD as much as I could (and more than I should), and I was falling further and further behind the other players with whom I had been playing. I couldn't keep up, so I gave up the MUD.

I play PL about ninety minutes per day on average. That level of gameplay has given me three lvl 35 characters with all of the pink equipment that I really want. (Being a runner-up in the Review Writing contest helped, too!) That's good for me. I'm happy with that level of commitment. If PL required four hours of gameplay every day, I would like it less. I'm not threatening to leave (so dramatic!), but just saying that I would like the game less if it were less casual.

Does expressing my opinion make me selfish? Perhaps ... but if so, then many other people on this thread are also selfish, including many of the people who disagree with me. Maybe "selfish" isn't a useful argument, and we should concentrate on refuting other players' arguments instead of impugning their motives.

[Reaper]

Yeah, looks like your all getting a 'nice' reputation for your guild. I will sit back, relax and wait for my opportunity.
:)

Rofl, we are the only guild who have not started an argument yet, although Richie was close to starting one xD

[Arjun]

Rofl, we are the only guild who have not started an argument yet, although Richie was close to starting one xD

Ummm. . .actually u guys might wanna rethink your guild logo. . creative as it is. . . I mean I like it and such. . .wish I had thought of it and what not . . . but. .. it is culturally insensitive. . . to say the least.

Nothing to do with anything here. . .just browsing. . and since you mentioned it . . .thought I may as well point it out.

[Xanthia]

Ok, Venom definitely has respect for casual players! I honestly don't care what any of you say about the game being catered not to casual players, but when you can play 90 minutes a day and in a couple weeks have full pink, that is a casual game. Right now there is absolutely no hardcore content at all what so ever. I know that it is beta, however all of my suggestions have been called "Demanding" , "Bossing", no respect, and other things. However, since this is a suggestion forum I don't think that we are over stepping our boundaries.

Casual players should never have as much as the hardcore players, if you all understood my post, I am not trying to remove the casual content, not one thing I said was to make the game remove or delete casual players, I just would like something to do that requires me to play a lot. That is what I have been saying all along and every one has been trying to fight me and azrael about it. Furrawn you said that you are a casual player and yet you were 35 in a week and were geared, that is exactly my point, even casual players are making this game look easy. So what do you think it feels like to the hard core players.

@Thelonearcher - dude just no, you bought your money, we have 30x the amount you have in Venom. --Conversation Over--

Ok, why guild halls should cost 5 million is because they are supposted to be luxury, since you all are absolutely SET on saying that guilds should not cost that much, I am not going to argue anymore, I am just going to make a post whenever the game has more guilds in the game then average players online everyday. Back to guild halls, if the glass ceiling is not set very high there is nothing to achieve, and why should every guild have everything. It seems so much like everyone here is so liberal when it comes to content and getting things for free or not having to earn them in the game. I have no problem keeping a casual side to the game, however you casual players need to release the grip on letting the DEV's make a hard core side.

Again, I do not care what any of you say about this game not being catered to casual gamers. This game is exclusively to casual gamers. If it is possible to get a character to the max level in 1 day then it is definitely a casual game.

I am getting disgusted that many players are saying that Venom has no respect for casual gamers, and please leave the recruiting up to us, we are doing a fine job at that so far. Again, I want to clarify we do not have anything against casual players, we just would like something to do.

[Neurion]

Wow, I actually read through the 9 pages in this thread. I'd reply according to Xanthia's paragraph headings, but my thoughts are too spread across the OP so I'll just list them down.

1. I understand where everyone else is coming from when commenters felt a "dictatorial" tone from the OP. It would have helped if you chose words besides "should", "must". When you got to "PVE AND PVP MUST HAVE THE SAME COMBAT SYSTEM" (all caps nonetheless), you started raising my red flags (and because I don't agree that PVE and PVP should be the same). We are in no position to tell the game designers what "must" and "should" be done. As you have said, this is a "Suggestions and Feedback forum," let's not turn it into a "Request and Demand forum."

2. I agree with your idea to improve STR benefits, though not to that extent. Tougher tanks would be great, but very high max HP is not necessary, especially now that PvP was tweaked to lower max damages (note that I disagree with PvP and PvE having same damage formulas.) I also think it's fine the way it is where bears benefit more from STR, avians from DEX, and elves from INT. This way, pure builds get some sort of bonus. If you level stat boosts among classes, then you just gave players less reason to lean towards pure builds.

3. Hybrid Builds:
I don't really see a problem with them right now. Let's take your example, the STR Avian. They do make huge damage, but you also said yourself that PvP is a "cooldown" wars. After the bird's big Blast Shot, he's basically just a tank waiting for his cooldown. He can't do this forever (low mana, no m/s, meditate cooldown too long.) I can also imagine him having a hard time in PvE.
These hybrids are powerful, yes, but there are drawbacks. And the fact that each class has their own "powerful hybrid" version and the fact that there is nobody stopping anyone from making their own, makes me wonder why people should be complaining about them in the first place.
Class specific gear? No, please, no. The best I can counter-suggest is to give additional bonuses to gear when they are wielded by it's target class.

4. Allowing friends to join passworded games without a password:
I agree this is not a desirable behavior. We have "friends" we do PvE with, those that we trade with, and those that we PvP with. But they're not necessarily the same people.

5. Currency, Trading:
Yes, this can certainly improve.

6. Crafting, Achievement Points, Skill Trees, Hero Classes:
Woah, woah, woah! As much as I enjoy new content as everyone else, there is no rushing needed. If anything, the current pace of patches and updates are pretty good, IMO. Let's not shove radical changes into our heads too much. We loved Pocket Legends from the start, even without these complicated content. If you liked crafting from Everquest 2, then that's that, let Everquest 2 keep it's pride. It's a different game, different target audience, different platform, different target device. I don't want PL to be "like that other game, with a bit of that other game." Yes, PL will grow, but there is no need for the devs to rush new content, much less for players to worry about them. Besides, these just add complexities to the game, as many others have already pointed out.

7. Hardcore vs. Casual players:
"Casual gamer" is pretty easy to define, so what's a "Hardcore gamer"? I don't know why we have to be divided into these two, I mean, I can easily be classified into either. To newbies, I can be considered "hardcore" because well, I have 3 max-leveled characters, each with their own best pink gear. And yet I'm also "casual" because I only play 1-3 hours a day and I'm against a game I have to be committed to. I might quit if I find myself rushing home from work just to participate a 10-Man Raid, or if I lose sleep from running crafting chores. I already left a few other MMO's from the burden of game responsibilities.
That said, the game needs to keep both the "hardcore" and "casual" player base if it's going to be more successful. The fact that casual players voiced that heavy commitment will hurt them is already something to take note of. Hardcore players do deserve to get something better than casual gamers, but not at the cost of casual gamers feeling left out/feeling inferiorities.

8. Guilds:
Speaking of inferiorities, is that what Venom wants us, who haven't held 6 digits of gold, to feel? "I think that guilds should be an intrical part of the pocket legends community" I second that. From there I find most that was said as elitist and defeats the purpose of a "community." 5 million? I'm a regular player and the most gold I've held is 40~50k. You want 100 of the same player type as I am to hand out all our gold, just to start a guild? Lower your head from the clouds a little. I agree guilds should not be readily accessible by anyone, but what's so bad with say, a minimum level of 30 and 10k gold to create your own guild? If you don't like the idea of a lot of guilds running around town, then you're not promoting guilds, you're promoting just your guild. I'd rather have my guild be known among many others, than be better than just 4. Besides, a lot of people would be joining guilds just for the heck of it (e.g. real-life friends, farming buddies, merchant guilds.) Why not let them?

9. Farming, boredom
"As it is now, honestly, I get so bored running behind 4 of my guild members and just throwing down some heals and occasionally using Lightning storm. It bores me to death that I can watch tv, carry on a conversation with someone on the phone and farm bosses like this" I'm sorry to be rude, but man I hope you're exaggerating. I would want a more active mage in my party. If you can watch TV and talk to the phone while farming in-game, then you might as well be complaining that the TV show's too boring that you can play a game while watching. The bosses are not easy. I can solo them, but at best I will probably die every 2 attempts. I can be in a team but I may still die. Please don't forget, lvl 35 is not our last level. Swamps won't be our hardest map. We'll be moving soon to a new map, why bother fixing what's not broken?

If you guys are really bored, might I suggest some spading?

[Azrael]

Wow, I left this thread for a day, and it turned into a serious flamewar. Also, Venom apparently has no respect for casual gamers, and they think that the rest of us (casual gamers) should be inferior to them. I have to say, such attitude might not be an effective recruiting tool for your guild....


Xanthia or i never stated we have no respect for casual players. And not for nothing, it was your posts by you (Slipperjim), mobdropper that turned this post into a flame war, and its posts like the one you just made that attempt to keep it a flamewar. 2-3 of the changes we thought of, out of a huge OP i might add, some people don't agree with. Neither I nor Xanthia have any issues with that fact that you don't agree with with us, nor do we think that our suggestion post should be written in stone. Why some members of the community are so threatened by a suggestion post is beyond me. Most of what was written in the OP doesn't change the fact that the game is a completely casual game right now, and it seems like the only change that we suggested can be singled out catalyst for the majority of the flaming that has ensued was the price tag on guild features.

The reality is that this debate isn't about the OP anymore at all. Its about several players lashing out because they feel threatened by a concept, and to make it easier they have decided that "Venom" should represent that concept. This isn't the first post to present end game ideas, its just the longest. Ces't la vie.

If anything, its the "casual" players posting on this thread that have shown no respect for players they consider to be "hardcore". Wanting to have content that takes longer to unlock and complete has nothing to do with making any other player feel inferior; those are your words. You want the game to work for you Slippery, and it already does work for you. Quite frankly though for a guy with 250 posts, participated in the contest, and has 3 35s that are fully pinked, you sound look like a hardcore player to me. Many players are completely finished with the content including you slippery. How can you consider this a positive aspect of the game, or a positive thing for STS's business model? We want to have enough content to last from patch to patch or even longer.

The devs thankfully responded though we knew that they would read it because STS has been great on these forums and read pretty much everything.

@Neuron: The caps in the pve and pvp having the same system were simply because i didn't get around to writing the section. Its there because it wasn't edited when we wrote it. Your post is generally constructive and i enjoyed reading your input. As for the bit in your #9 point, xanthia is the dedicated healer and yes when we are farming we don't need heals. Many players agree that the bosses are too easy. While an Enchantress can't solo them without ever dying, warriors certainly can. Its generally understood that boss farming is way too easy in the ancient swamps. If it wasn't STS wouldn't have tried to fix the issue three times, and unfortunately without much success.

[Mobdropper]

Just because I disagree with one or two points, and ask reasonable questions to statements you two have made, does not make my post's flames.

[Hraefn]

Although what you might say about guild creation is sound, I don't believe you have to horde gold in order to achieve a sum of 5 million. I do share items, and in return, people share back.

Just like Xanthia said, the current game is TOO easy. End game tier pinks is a matter of a days worth of dedicated farming. Where is the glass ceiling?

This may come across as being elitist, but the non-factors(casual players as you call it) has to stay in line, BEHIND the hardcore players, or else, what's the point of being a hardcore player?

-Adv

So, Azrael, a Venom member (Advance is one of yours, is he not?) calling casual gamers "non-factors" isn't being disrespectful?

Beyond that, I think many posters are responding to Venom's idea that "the guilds should run the game" and that being in a successful guild should lend the player a "huge advantage." Personally, I want the devs to run the game. And I don't want anything other than player skill to lend the hardcore players "a huge advantage" over casual players.

Perhaps if you explained more fully how the guilds would run the game or what this advantage would consist of, other players might not be so resistant to your ideas.

[Ogediah]

Yeah, looks like your all getting a 'nice' reputation for your guild. I will sit back, relax and wait for my opportunity.

Atleast their name and high requirements are known. To me that says something.

[Furrawn]

Ok, Venom definitely has respect for casual players! I honestly don't care what any of you say about the game being catered not to casual players, but when you can play 90 minutes a day and in a couple weeks have full pink, that is a casual game. Right now there is absolutely no hardcore content at all what so ever. I know that it is beta, however all of my suggestions have been called "Demanding" , "Bossing", no respect, and other things. However, since this is a suggestion forum I don't think that we are over stepping our boundaries.

Casual players should never have as much as the hardcore players, if you all understood my post, I am not trying to remove the casual content, not one thing I said was to make the game remove or delete casual players, I just would like something to do that requires me to play a lot. That is what I have been saying all along and every one has been trying to fight me and azrael about it. Furrawn you said that you are a casual player and yet you were 35 in a week and were geared, that is exactly my point, even casual players are making this game look easy. So what do you think it feels like to the hard core players.

@Thelonearcher - dude just no, you bought your money, we have 30x the amount you have in Venom. --Conversation Over--

Ok, why guild halls should cost 5 million is because they are supposted to be luxury, since you all are absolutely SET on saying that guilds should not cost that much, I am not going to argue anymore, I am just going to make a post whenever the game has more guilds in the game then average players online everyday. Back to guild halls, if the glass ceiling is not set very high there is nothing to achieve, and why should every guild have everything. It seems so much like everyone here is so liberal when it comes to content and getting things for free or not having to earn them in the game. I have no problem keeping a casual side to the game, however you casual players need to release the grip on letting the DEV's make a hard core side.

Again, I do not care what any of you say about this game not being catered to casual gamers. This game is exclusively to casual gamers. If it is possible to get a character to the max level in 1 day then it is definitely a casual game.

I am getting disgusted that many players are saying that Venom has no respect for casual gamers, and please leave the recruiting up to us, we are doing a fine job at that so far. Again, I want to clarify we do not have anything against casual players, we just would like something to do.

Xanthia-

I did NOT call myself a casual gamer. I said YOU would call me a casual gamer. The assumptions you are making about anyone not of your ilk are just downright erroneous.

When the swamp campaign came out, I was on ALL the time. I ate lunch in front of my iPad:) It was not easy to level to 35. And I most certainly did not have full gear in a week. Pinks did not just drop out of the sky freely as if they were monarchs on migration. I've played a lot. I just finally got Furrawn in full pink YESTERDAY. And that was because a friend gave me a zombie shield. I still don't have full Mage pink gear (only half in fact). I do play a lot, BUT I'm not about to sign a schedule for when I'll play or be on call for a game. That's just my personal preference.

I think that Venom Guild maybe has invented this sweeping generalization category and called it "casual players." I can promise you that the friends I've made in the game trust me. Count on me. I will play through campaigns to help friends level up. I share.

I resent the assumption that I don't want long quests or difficult exhaustive tasks. I would LOVE that. Why would you ever assume I wouldn't? My brain works just fine. I average a book a day (yes intelligent books- I just finished a book on Louis Leakey and Lucy). I'd adore more complexity in the game. As I said before, the game is in the process of being created. I don't think it's geared toward any group right now. I think the devs are building and complexity will come brick by brick.

I think it's an outrageous oversimplification to say there is Venom Guild and then everybody else is basically a casual player. Maybe. But there's a myriad of varying degrees. Perhaps you aren't taking that into account?

As for guilds, you said Venom has 30x lone's 3 million. That's 90 million. How many members do you have? You judge other players as not caring about content, but it seems to me like Venom just plays for gold.

See. It doesn't feel good when someone unfairly assumes the worst.
We need to be a community that values and respects ALL players. Yes, I agree that you respect the group you call casual gamers, but your posts reflect that you do not VALUE them.

I do value you. I admire the commitment and effort you put forth in pursuit of your goals. I think you have a lot to offer.

But so do I.
So do a lot of folks.

The game would benefit from us all working together, in my opinion:)

[SlipperyJim]

Ok, Venom definitely has respect for casual players! I honestly don't care what any of you say about the game being catered not to casual players, but when you can play 90 minutes a day and in a couple weeks have full pink, that is a casual game. Right now there is absolutely no hardcore content at all what so ever.

I owe Venom an apology. I saw Advance's post:

This may come across as being elitist, but the non-factors(casual players as you call it) has to stay in line, BEHIND the hardcore players, or else, what's the point of being a hardcore player?
This post shows disrespect toward casual gamers. However, Advance may or may not be part of Venom (I suspect that he is not), so I was wrong to connect his statement with you. That's probably why I should not post at 5am.... So I'm sorry for that. :(

However, I believe you called me selfish:

Because this game only caters to casual players, I think players who would say that they would quit or be pissed if the game changed and became more "Complex" or "Hard-core" are honestly being selfish because they have the game strictly made for them currently. Maybe if you were to come over to our side of the fence and see how things were you might have a differing opinion.
... which takes me back to the point that we're all expressing our opinions here. If expressing my opinion makes me selfish, then these forums have a lot of selfish people. Personally, I'd rather focus on the arguments that people have made ... and not on the supposed motivations of those people.

(And I should have taken my own advice before accusing you of disrespect. Again, I apologize.)


Casual players should never have as much as the hardcore players, if you all understood my post, I am not trying to remove the casual content, not one thing I said was to make the game remove or delete casual players, I just would like something to do that requires me to play a lot. That is what I have been saying all along and every one has been trying to fight me and azrael about it.

I disagree with you. As I tried to write in my early-morning post, one of the most-attractive qualities of PL for me is that I can be a casual player and still compete in the Big Leagues. I don't want anything that requires me to play a lot. And I don't want to be in a different league from you simply because you play a lot and I don't.

That's our fundamental disagreement. And I agree with you that PL caters to the casual gamers right now. That's why I like it! That's why I'm arguing in favor of the status quo. I don't think I'll persuade you, and I doubt that you'll persuade me. But at least we understand each other! :)


Furrawn you said that you are a casual player and yet you were 35 in a week and were geared, that is exactly my point, even casual players are making this game look easy. So what do you think it feels like to the hard core players.

I know I'm not Furrawn, but I'm going to respond anyway. I was able to level up each of my characters from 30 to 35 in about a week. Getting all three to lvl 35 took (therefore) about three weeks. Getting my gear took longer. I don't have full pinks yet -- probably won't ever get there -- but I have all of the pinks that I really need.

(PS: Sniper's Bayou Bows are so not worth it. My Bayou Bow of the Eagle has almost the same stats, only 2 Dex less, and it was easy to get. Why are people willing to pay so much for a pink bow?)


Again, I do not care what any of you say about this game not being catered to casual gamers. This game is exclusively to casual gamers. If it is possible to get a character to the max level in 1 day then it is definitely a casual game.

Again, I agree that PL caters to the casual gamers. I like it that way. However, I feel some skepticism at the notion that someone could reach lvl 35 in one day. Are you talking about going from lvl 30 to lvl 35 in one day, or all the way up from lvl 1? If they started at lvl 30, it could be possible....


I am getting disgusted that many players are saying that Venom has no respect for casual gamers, and please leave the recruiting up to us, we are doing a fine job at that so far. Again, I want to clarify we do not have anything against casual players, we just would like something to do.

Again, I apologize for the false accusation. However, I wonder that you have nothing to do. Isn't the base game still fun? I still enjoy killing crocs, even though I don't get any more XP for it, and I don't really need much more gear. Kill crocs. Help newbies. Enjoy the game!

Does a game have to offer a reward in order to be worth playing? Isn't it just fun to play for its own sake?

[Xanthia]

Slipperyjim - thank you for finally understanding what I am trying to say instead of being contradicting just to do it.

You're right we will never agree on the making the game good for both hardcore and casual. But, thats ok :)

Furrawn - again saying things that you have no idea about, trying to say that Venom is only about gold, that is actually one of the last things we worry about, all we care about is beating the game as fast as possible and being the best guild in PvP and once raiding comes out, beating the content before everyone else and having more things than any other guild. Yep I said it, we want the best stuff before everyone else and faster and better then everyone else does it. That's what we do. We now have 9 members.

[smokester]

Furrawn - again saying things that you have no idea about, trying to say that Venom is only about gold, that is actually one of the last things we worry about, all we care about is beating the game as fast as possible and being the best guild in PvP and once raiding comes out, beating the content before everyone else and having more things than any other guild. Yep I said it, we want the best stuff before everyone else and faster and better then everyone else does it. That's what we do. We now have 9 members.

Probably gonna not get too much more members if you keep this attitude up... too selfish of a guild for me... mob u and me start one lol... u down?

[Xanthia]

Probably gonna not get too much more members if you keep this attitude up... too selfish of a guild for me... mob u and me start one lol... u down?

Ok, look what do you think hard-core guilds do.....exactly what I just said...

[smokester]

im not gonna argue... ive said what i think and im entitled to my opinion just like u r entitled to urs... venom is too selfish of a guild for me period... bye i wont post again

[Mobdropper]

Probably gonna not get too much more members if you keep this attitude up... too selfish of a guild for me... mob u and me start one lol... u down?

Can we name our guild, 'Antidote' ?

[Furrawn]

Slipperyjim - thank you for finally understanding what I am trying to say instead of being contradicting just to do it.

You're right we will never agree on the making the game good for both hardcore and casual. But, thats ok :)

Furrawn - again saying things that you have no idea about, trying to say that Venom is only about gold, that is actually one of the last things we worry about, all we care about is beating the game as fast as possible and being the best guild in PvP and once raiding comes out, beating the content before everyone else and having more things than any other guild. Yep I said it, we want the best stuff before everyone else and faster and better then everyone else does it. That's what we do. We now have 9 members.


If you are going to respond to posts, at least read them in their entirety FIRST.
I said the gold thing to prove a point about how it feels to have someone make an unfair judgement. I said directly after the gold comment "See. It doesn't feel good when someone unfairly assumes the worst."

My post was actually nice.
My mistake.
I won't post again in this thread.
I'm with Mobdropper & Smokester... An antidote sounds good.

[Diz]

*looks at past 6 pages of thread*

...

*facepalm*

[lazuli]

I huuuugely disagree with some of the stuff you've posted, and can see sense in other bits. Il probably tack onto this post when I'm feeling a little more lucent than now, but here's some initial thoughts.

PvP and PvE being intrinsically linked - I can safely say that this was far and away the biggest reason for bitching and moaning on other MMOs I have played, as they are often so very different and changing one small thing to suit one thing can drastically alter another.

HP being tied to strength exclusively - I still think this is a really bad idea. It should buff it up but it really shouldn't be the sole giver of health. A stat that both buffs melée damage AND increases hp in one is a bad idea IMO and will lead to dominance if/when burst is reduced. If anything there should be some kind of itemisation which gives health off've equipment, similar to H/S and M/S as they stand now.

Guilds - no way in hell should they be so expensive to start up, and whilst progression would be wonderful, I can only see it leading to elitism and epeens being waved about. The vast majority of players cant contemplate owning 5million between all their friends. A guild should be about playing with friends, having a laugh. Not spending hours grinding, bleary-eyed, just to get themselves onto the first greasy rung of this guild progression thing you talk about.

Invites - agree totally, it's annoying having people suddenly but into a locked game because you added them for a trade once.

Crafting - again, I agree, crafting would be great. Wouldn't want it to be quite so complex though.

Time for some sleep anyway, il add some more points tommorow. While I think you've got some great ideas, I really do think you're looking at this in way too hardcore an attitude. Playing as much as Venom seems to do, I'm not surprised you worry about becoming bored. This is, fundamentally, an iPhone app, and the depth you're expecting of it is something which is maybe more suited to a PC game. The reason I enjoy it is because it is simple. I can pop on for an hour, do some PvP matches, and log off again. A large amount of the stuff you're talking about requires serious commitment. I've staved off my WoW addiction, I don't particularly want to have to become on again to keep up with strange new co
plexities in an iPhone game.

I feel like I'm rambling, il add more tommorow.
Oh, and don't think I'm not all for added strategy and complexity in Actual on the ground gameplay. I firmly believe PvP and PvP should really have more to it than either running in blowing all CDs or as you pointed out, sitting in a group tapping one button.

[lazuli]

Apologies for double post but the edit tool on iPhones with a long post is horrible. Just wanted to say that I am generally looking at things from more of a PvP point of view, as it's where I specialise, and also that none of what I am saying is intended to be a personal attack. It's simply constructive criticism, because I want to see this game progress too. I still need to get onto chatting with you on vent, because you do have some genuinely interesting ideas and it's good to see you express them.

[Advance]

Ok, a non-factor is a person or thing that isn't special.
Now in my context, a casual gamer in a triditional MMO usually does not have better gear, guild, reputation(sometimes), or even gold. This then leads these said casual gamers to not contribute much to the high tier meta game, thus
they aren't anything special.

I am NOT ignorant enough to disrespect players due to the amount of time they put into a game, your just reading too much out of it.

[Mobdropper]

A non-factor by definition is something or someone that is not a factor or does not matter at all. I'm not sure how that can be read too much into as it is pretty offensive at face value, when referring to other players (your fellow players).

A casual gamer on the other hand is always a factor, and a very important factor, but not more special than anyone else either. Although casual gamers are (imo) probably the more loyal customers/fans of a game, and will play a game for a longer period of time than a hardcore gamer - with hardcore gamers always looking for the next big thing. Pocket Legends is a phone based game, there is no reason for one to expect it to or want it to turn into a mirror of EQ or WoW. If the desire is for such, those games are still currently available, or perhaps look else where for a game that can by played on a PC - where the device can handle much more than a phone.

Pocket Legends has a very limited community (because of the platform), and a lot of the appeal is due to it not being a second job or requiring a huge time commitment. People that are self proclaimed hardcore gamers, might want to take this into serious consideration. If hardcore gamers are bored or feel they have nothing to do, they only have themselves to blame. Being a hardcore gamer on a phone based game, is a bit contradictory in itself.

I am all in favor of more depth or additions to Pocket Legends, but I will not step on the majority of the customer base to try to get things made my way. We learned in grade school that there are ways to construct and punctuate sentences in order to convey tone, or separate a suggestion from a demand - I just wish more people paid attention in those lessons.

[SlipperyJim]

Slipperyjim - thank you for finally understanding what I am trying to say instead of being contradicting just to do it.

You're right we will never agree on the making the game good for both hardcore and casual. But, thats ok :)
Wait, what? Where was I "being contradicting just to do it"? My posts all contained arguments, actual logic, not mere snark. I'm not contradicting you just for the "fun" of an Internet argument. Rather, I'm contradicting you because I think your ideas are mostly bad. I disagree with you. And I've tried to make my case over and over, in several different ways.

Anyway, I'll end with the smiley, too. We disagree, but at least (I hope) we understand each other. You want the game to be more hardcore. I would rather keep the game casual. We both can't get what we want, but at least we both enjoy the game in our own ways. :)

[crookedjay]

Hey guys.

If you really want to be hardcore, let's just leave it here. I'm embarassed just reading this. Real test / raid guilds never post this much. Nor do they use the word "casual". It reeks of desperation and aspiration.

For those in need of a history lesson; Venom is not Blood. Although it sounds suitably similar. I should know. I was the original Azraiel in the original Blood. Together with Prophets of Rage we pushed the possible (both in unique ways - in a true MMO - with Sony devs in guild to observe).

What stinks is that this was a great, well thought out post on game design that now reads as a sad, ridiculously defensive, big-fish-small-pond rant. Top-tier guilds have rules about this kind of public stuff. Without exception. Just some advice. You guys seem very smart and I know you value your reputation.

GL and happy hunting to all.

[crookedjay]

Wait... Is that the "real" Smokestar up there in this thread? Damn. It's been a while if it's you, dude.

[Banned]

Lolwut? Are you high or something?

[Reaper]

SHUT UP - ALL OF YOU.
It is an iPhone game for god sake!
Why don't you all just stop this pointless thread. Please. Whether Advance is,or is not a member of Venom, don't blame the guild. Xanthia has done nothing wrong. If you think the suggestions are bad, your opinion. Please just be quiet. This thread is pointless. I mean PLEASE.
Argument Over.

[Banned]

SHUT UP - ALL OF YOU.
It is an iPhone game for god sake!
Why don't you all just stop this pointless thread. Please. Whether Advance is,or is not a member of Venom, don't blame the guild. Xanthia has done nothing wrong. If you think the suggestions are bad, your opinion. Please just be quiet. This thread is pointless. I mean PLEASE.
Argument Over.

Exactly. His opinion. And he should be allowed to express his opinion on whatever the hell he feels like. Even if it has turned into an argument, it is still only opinion. Opinion on what the game should implement next, and opinion on how we like or dislike the ideas. That's how the world works, and we should be allowed to speak our minds on things we want or don't want. It hasn't even turned into an all out flame war, so far it's just a very passionate debate. Chill the fudge out.

[Mobdropper]

Very well put, Banned.

[Dizko]

For those in need of a history lesson; Venom is not Blood. Although it sounds suitably similar. I should know. I was the original Azraiel in the original Blood. Together with Prophets of Rage we pushed the possible (both in unique ways - in a true MMO - with Sony devs in guild to observe).
.

Did you find the sword of a thousand truths too?

[FluffNStuff]

Can we name our guild, 'Antidote' ?

I vote for Serum.

No offense to anyone on either side intended.

[Esus]

I just read this start to finish...I want the 45 minutes I spent reading this back...

[Diz]

Hey guys.

If you really want to be hardcore, let's just leave it here. I'm embarassed just reading this. Real test / raid guilds never post this much. Nor do they use the word "casual". It reeks of desperation and aspiration.

For those in need of a history lesson; Venom is not Blood. Although it sounds suitably similar. I should know. I was the original Azraiel in the original Blood. Together with Prophets of Rage we pushed the possible (both in unique ways - in a true MMO - with Sony devs in guild to observe).

What stinks is that this was a great, well thought out post on game design that now reads as a sad, ridiculously defensive, big-fish-small-pond rant. Top-tier guilds have rules about this kind of public stuff. Without exception. Just some advice. You guys seem very smart and I know you value your reputation.

GL and happy hunting to all.

I've played with Blood in two different games.

I knew Blood before they were Blood, and I can say that they're literally no different than Venom in either their ambitions and certainly no better than Venom in the make-up of their membership. I will, however, give Blood a little dap on the "been there, done that" scale.

I even produced a song a year ago in Darkfall with samples from a Blood guild argument over Ventrilo. The song was never released because the argument is both depressing and erotically arousing.

*fans the flames*

[Tullen666]

Did you find the sword of a thousand truths too?

Haha south park FTW!

[Esus]

Lol in my opinion, any guild that requires filling out a application that is longer than most job applications isn't worth the time or effort... I apologize to both Xanthia and Silentreaper, and other guilds that require such a thing, but that's just a major turn off

[v5point0]

Lol in my opinion, any guild that requires filling out a application that is longer than most job applications isn't worth the time or effort... I apologize to both Xanthia and Silentreaper, and other guilds that require such a thing, but that's just a major turn off

I do agree, Xanthia are you using this as a PHd thesis? Lol

[Xanthia]

I just wanted to bump this to see if there are any new replies or any new ideas that would apply to this post. Please just post information that is directed to this exact post, do not make this a flame war or go off on a tangent. I still believe that all of these ideas could be utilized within the game as it stands now. I am really pushing and hoping that guilds will be a HUGE part of the game! One can only hope! Let me know what you think.

One reason I wanted to bump this is because a lot of the players who commented on this a while ago either no longer play or are inactive on the boards and we have a lot of new boards whores who love to read and post so I figured I would give them something to read and do in the spare time!

If you think that I am just bringing this up to start a flame war, think again. If you do not think I should have re-bumped it, then just don't reply and it will fade.

Thanks,