Buffs in SL.

[Ellyidol]

Based from my observations in comparisons between PL and other games in terms of buffs, it seemed pretty clear that,

In PL, the buffs the character can use (Iron Blood/Evade/Rage for bears, Shield/BoM/BoV for mages, Focus/Evade for birds) actually make or break a character, especially in pvp.

Stemming from that, I was thinking that the self-cast buffs that each class has, buffs that only a class can get and are not from someone else (like Revive buff, small BoM/BoV buff), should not be a deciding factor between a win or a lose. Unfortunately, in PL, that is the case I've noticed. Whoever has buffs on will win a fight or mass pvp fight even if the opponent doesn't really do much.

IMO, the biggest buffs characters should be able to obtain are from the support class/type of characters, in our mmorpg terms, the healer/Mage. Although classes should have individual buffs, I don't think they should be that extreme, and should only act as a bonus. Furthermore, the strength of self-buffs shouldn't be what makes a character a tank, a DPS, or anything for the fact - that's what character builds are for.

This would do two things, IMO.

Make the healer/mage class all the more sought after. If the best buffs came from them, who wouldn't want them in a group?

It'd balance out pvp by removing that almost inevitable alternate killing due to the also alternating buffs that each character has.

Although I agree that buff rotation and buff timing are extremely important in defining player skill, at the moment I feel that buffs do more than what the actual player can do. Well, in PL at least.

What do you think should happen in SL?

[Zbooo]

I agree with this, as a future Engineer in SL I think that it should be as most support as possible( Buffs, Healing, Debuffs) and Dps should be not that great but not that bad..... It balances PvP itself and gives each Classes their respective job.
Commando/Tank
Operative/ Dps
Engineer/ Support

[Ellyidol]

Love how 53 people viewed and only 1 bothered to discuss :)

[Zbooo]

honestly what people only care about is "Wh3n D0z Bl@st^r C0m3z 0vt?" Lol hahaha

[Otukura]

Make the healer/mage class all the more sought after. If the best buffs came from them, who wouldn't want them in a group?
I thought that was the most sought out end game.

But yes, I hate how even the worst player can take out someone without buffs, if they have buffs. It's what really made me start to like one v ones.

[Ellyidol]

I thought that was the most sought out end game.

But yes, I hate how even the worst player can take out someone without buffs, if they have buffs. It's what really made me start to like one v ones.

I don't think much has changed for wanting a mage end-game. Maybe due to the amount of AoE they can do, but I personally wouldn't want or need a mage just because of the AoE they can do or buffs they can give. A few HS/armour/damage? is neglectable IMO.

And yes, that's exactly what I meant. Buffs > Almost anything else in a fight, regardless of skill or know-how.

[Zbooo]

With that being said I think Engineer will be the least PvP like class out the the three, since its going to be focused into more support based gameplay rather than all out Nuke like Mages but we'll are how everything develops

[Ellyidol]

With that being said I think Engineer will be the least PvP like class out the the three, since its going to be focused into more support based gameplay rather than all out Nuke like Mages but we'll are how everything develops

Quite the opposite actually.

If the Engineer (or mage/support type class) is done extremely well, I will personally want one in my group all the time for PvP.

[Zbooo]

Quite the opposite actually.

If the Engineer (or mage/support type class) is done extremely well, I will personally want one in my group all the time for PvP.

Well then let it be that way, well see how everything is by release

[Ellyidol]

Well then let it be that way, well see how everything is by release

Agreed. But that's one of the reasons why I wanted to start this thread. To, hopefully, gather opinions about how buffs should work in SL. Who knows, maybe something along the lines we discuss would help the devs ;)

[Zbooo]

Agreed. But that's one of the reasons why I wanted to start this thread. To, hopefully, gather opinions about how buffs should work in SL. Who knows, maybe something along the lines we discuss would help the devs ;)

Yup.

[WhoIsThis]

This begs the question - how should buffs be done?

Take for example the mage buff - Blessings of Might +60 crit, +30 damage. Not having this in PvE is a huge loss in damage. Not having this in PvP is suicide.

[Zbooo]

This begs the question - how should buffs be done?

Take for example the mage buff - Blessings of Might +60 crit, +30 damage. Not having this in PvE is a huge loss in damage. Not having this in PvP is suicide.

If any of the classes doesn't get a buff like that then its bye bye PvP chances, honestly.

[Ellyidol]

This begs the question - how should buffs be done?

Take for example the mage buff - Blessings of Might +60 crit, +30 damage. Not having this in PvE is a huge loss in damage. Not having this in PvP is suicide.

That's the thing, I think even from the start of PL, players have had the understanding that buffs pretty much make or break a character.

IMO, buffs should be good, but not good enough that it becomes the only thing that makes a character do what it's supposed to do. Buffs also shouldn't decide that the character who has them on wins vs characters that don't.

If buffs are meant to be that good, they should come from the support/healer class and not as a self-buff from each character. It makes the healer/support class that much more important, and it'd pretty much equalize all the classes across the board.

IMO, balancing would also be easier without having to split situations into 1. Self-buffed character and 2. Non-buffed character. Devs would be able to balance out each class individually while treating the buffs from the healer/support as a separate entity too.

These are just my opinions, of course. It just saddens me when I see a very good pvp-er have to run or simply lose against an average player due to the differences of having/not having buffs.

[WhoIsThis]

Often, there's no choice but to run. There are a lot of flame threads about how people "run" in the PvP forums. In many cases, it's because people need to recharge. I was in Forest Fight today, watching a pair of strength bears fight. One bear killed the other. Normally, it is considered proper to give the winner time to recharge. This bear respawned, ran towards his opponent, with rage, evade, and iron blood buffed. Easy kill. (The bear was later booted as a rusher, but the point is clear.) I've been killed a few times like that too - my opponent rushes me. Well, as I said, not having a +60 crit buff; I have found that mages often die due to not having their buffs.

I'm not a big fan of free for alls in Forest Fight for that reason. In large maps like Alien Underground, there is room to retreat ... unless of course your enemy has the speed orb. But then there's strategy involved.

Edit:

Ellyidol, how do you think the engineer should be? Mages in PL already do have the best offensive buff - Blessings of Might +60 crit, +30 damage and they are the support class. Bears have rage (+30 crit, +60 dmg) and birds have focus (+30crit, +30 hit). Ironically strength bears and birds would be more effective with each other's buffs. Pure strength bears have hit issues, and birds don't really need the extra hit but could really make a difference with that extra damage. I suspect that they were deliberately reversed for balance purposes - birds with +60 damage would be OP, especially in PvP.

[Ellyidol]

Edit:

Ellyidol, how do you think the engineer should be? Mages in PL already do have the best offensive buff - Blessings of Might +60 crit, +30 damage and they are the support class. Bears have rage (+30 crit, +60 dmg) and birds have focus (+30crit, +30 hit). Ironically strength bears and birds would be more effective with each other's buffs. Pure strength bears have hit issues, and birds don't really need the extra hit but could really make a difference with that extra damage. I suspect that they were deliberately reversed for balance purposes - birds with +60 damage would be OP, especially in PvP.

Never noticed that too, about the bear's and bird's buffs doing better for the other. Good point :)

Engineer is the mage right? Hmm..

Right now, if you look at the mage, they are almost only pure magical/offensive rather than the support class - minus the AoE heal, the small group buff they can give with their individual buffs, and of course, revive.

What I really think all classes should have is a split path option, where you can choose between build A or build B, both being opposites of each other. In mage terms, build A being a purely offensive character, or a real mage, or build B being a purely supportive character, or a healer.

The real mage can have the BoM buff - offensive, while the healer build can have the BoV buff - defensive, and a few extra single target buffs that would do well for the different classes (or one big buff altogether that would improve all classes). For extra diversity, you could even go half/half on either path, giving you a hybrid option.

IMO, there isn't a real support class in-game yet. In my experience, the mage's revives are the most supportive thing it can give. The AoE heals are debatable.

I really have a lot of expectations and opinions regarding the upcoming gameplay of SL, ranging from characters, to gear, to overall gameplay. I lack the ability to successfully lay them out in an organized manner though :( Hopefully they can be picked out from my wall of texts and opinions.

[ratava]

Ellyidol, great thread...

In PL I like the Mage the most because they have variety of skills so lots of interesting gameplay and cool-looking skills. They seem good at solo and groups which is cool. However this balance is sorta trying to square the circle ie

Support/Healer -> needed for groups but flexible skill options to solo!
Tank -> high enough survival to tank but enough damage to be fun?

etc.

If we look at your observation in the OP: Buffs should buff only, not be more powerful than the actual gameplay or other skills I think that's a really good point.

Problem is above^: Each class needs x/12 skills to be Specialist and the other y/12 to be general enough to create different playstyles I think could be said?? So the UI is limiting what each class can do and maybe the combat mechanics that go with that... so instead if SL has:

Weapons: Each has 3-6 skills within each weapon and classes can carry either 3-5 weapons at a time, that opens up the UI to MORE SKILLS to balance specialist builds that support or tank with generalist skills ie pick the right combination of weapons which gets around the problem of having 12 skills on the UI atsm. Because a GCD could be used for using a weapon before swapping (This could apply to weapons or gear)?

Ie a super hierarchy of skills. Different Weapons (z) > Weapon (z-y1) > Skills (z-y1-xi) where z = Engineer weapons, y = powerglove, xi = 1 out of 3/4 skills on this weapon eg

As to maintain class differences especialy buffs, an Engineer could have a Powerglove that has more buffs skills slotted on it eg? That way switches to buff weapon, but obviously CC and DPS is really limited during the GCD until they switch again or need to --> timing using it. Hopefully other classes could have this too. Eg Commando can have more weapon options than the other classes maybe??

Buffs could also be LOW power but there could be buff-combos to boost their effect perhaps is another solution maybe?

[Ellyidol]

Wow, I really think that has huge potential in allowing more depth and variety in builds.

Let me see if I got this right, buffs would come from gear. Different weapons and different armour pieces would contain different buffs, which when equipped, the character can use and have the buff on.

That sounds extremely good to me, I haven't come across a game like that yet.

There could be rare to very rare weapons/armour that give extremely good buffs if put on. Different variety of gear could be put on to have a different set of buffs on, which would differentiate each character from the other.

So gear would be extremely important in the game, what does this do to stats/skills? :)

[ratava]

Yeah, it's very flexible however the devs implement, but perhaps more complicated? (lol!)

Eg Weapons that have skills on them which pop up on the UI when used and can be tapped etc. +/- a different number of buff skills per weapon slotted by player?!

So it limits what you can do in any given combat, ie how much buffing you want per weapon/item selected but still allow a lot of builds and variety of where you want to emphasise when you buff ie your current weapon that might be needed for better CC - do you have buffs there or another weapon?!
At least it looks at the UI and solves that somewhat as well as INCREASING options for players maybe?

Yeah the gear/stats additions... it is becoming more complicated considering them also! But yes in PvE it could work well for special gear. For PvP I think it should be less gear dependent ie same slots for everyone - means how well you use your class to solo/team is what is important and what weapons you slot at the start of the game maybe or not?

At E3 we need someone to look at the stats screen! Then we know what we are dealing with. :D

[Ellyidol]

True, with how diverse it could get comes a lot of work from devs too, I think :)

2 1/2 more weeks til I fully finish school, hopefully by then SL decides to launch too ;)

[WhoIsThis]

There is one other problem. If the buffs are too weak ... well what is the point of getting the buffs? Balancing the game mechanics could prove difficult.

Another issue - apart from buffing and healing, what other incentives are there to play the support class? Tanks are fun to play because of the skill involved. DPS classes like birds and classes with the "cool magic" skills are always attractive in any game. What about support though? They will also need to stand a chance in PvP.

[Ellyidol]

There is one other problem. If the buffs are too weak ... well what is the point of getting the buffs? Balancing the game mechanics could prove difficult.

Another issue - apart from buffing and healing, what other incentives are there to play the support class? Tanks are fun to play because of the skill involved. DPS classes like birds and classes with the "cool magic" skills are always attractive in any game. What about support though? They will also need to stand a chance in PvP.

They shouldn't really make all the buffs weak per se, but shouldn't let it be the deciding factor in fights.

IMO,

If self-buffs are that strong and that character defining (like Rage is what makes a bear do damage, BoM for mages, Focus for birds), then they should have much longer durations than their current one fight duration.

or

If self-buffs are weakened, the best buffs should come from the support/healer class.

The incentive of playing a support class would come from being wanted in a group. In most games I've played, support classes have at least one/two skills that can kill. Not an extremely powerful skill that would wreck PvE/PvP, but enough to solo with if given no choice.

The need/essence of a support class would rely on other things too however. Things like, difficulty of levels/bosses, how PvP is like, etc. If the mobs and bosses are as easy to kill as PL, then I really don't see the need for a pure support class. If PvP is as fast too, healing would be the most difficult thing to do as it would need to be split second perfect. Also, prices/use of potions would come into play. If potions were dirt cheap, healing wouldn't be needed, but if they were expensive, you'd think twice before using one at will.

[WhoIsThis]

Right now in PL, Ellie sells pots in bulk for cheap and you can get pots by farming for them, so they can be used at will.

If I understand what you are saying, you want a support tree for the engineer. They will have really potent buffs, can heal, and have 1-2 moderately potent spells. Then there will be a dedicated damage dealing tree for the engineer too, which will probably take it to what a pure int mage is in PL - a dedicated nuking class. Both will be easily killed and dependent on the tank (commando). Both however will be wanted because of their abilities. Buffs for the non-support classes will be much reduced compared to PL for all other builds and classes.

I think that we're going to have to wait and see what it is like before casting judgment. The game could be very difficult. Or it could be about the same level as PL. I suspect though that being originally a "PC" game, we're going to see something more hardcore than PL, but not as hardcore as say, WoW.

I'd have to argue that the pure int mage is as close to support in PL as it gets. They have AOE heal (mine does 132-269 every 3s), are pretty much the squishiest class in the game (dex mages are squishy as well), and have really potent AOE, which they need to survive long enough to use to be effective. Like all mages, they can revive and slightly buff the group. However, what is not unique is that all classes have their debuffs (ex: hell scream, shattering scream). Pallies are less support as they can tank, do less AOE damage, and their heal is weaker.

My guess? The reason why there isn't a support class in PL is because there are 5 player slots on a team. If there were say, multiple sub-classes (ex: mage support, int mage, pally, dex mage, then dps bird, tank bird, maybe support bird, then attack bear, and the pure tank, along with a variation in between), you'd have situations where people would have to boot multiple times to get what they needed. PC games can largely avoid this because parties can have larger groups.



Other thoughts:
Even in PL, there are players who will rather choose to die rather than burn up pots when they gain the aggro. It's not that they are unskilled and don't know about the game mechanics, it's just that they are unwilling to spend the cash. They don't care about K/D ratios or anything like that. This can be a huge problem for birds when they've run out of mana or bears that (should) be out in front tanking. Same with dex mages. Increasing the costs of pots could make people much more stingy about using pots and lead to even less cooperation in PUGs. It's easily one of the biggest reasons why PUGs can be so ineffective. Every since the release of the Sewers, things have been interesting. When the Sewers first came out, I think that people were expecting drop rates comparable to that of "Crush the Keeper". There have been many complaints that players aren't making money in the sewers, unless they get a lucky pink. From personal experience, I know that if I were 100% dependent on my bird (I use my pots in a similar manner to how Physiologic showed in his video "How Physiologic Plays"), the cost of pots would mean that I would have to fall back and farm AO3 to make cash, unless I got a lucky pink. Bears, particularly those who are in dex gear have shared similar experiences. With mage though, I can break even and turn a profit. Even so, there are plenty mages not willing to spend money on pots.

It's interesting to note that in the time that the Shadow Caves was released and before the Sewers were out, AO3 farming remained far more popular than farming the Shadow Caves. Making money was always very hard in the Shadow Caves and people simply didn't farm it. With the release of the Sewers, the Shadow Caves took a further decline in popularity as they were no longer "end game", although they got a brief surge while people farmed for the Vyxnaar helm.

[Ellyidol]

Good arguments :)

Just wanted to clear up, my point wasn't to implement a support/healer class or a split path, but just to re-work buffs :)

Yeah, I agree that we should wait. I don't think we can really get opinions unless its a dev asking for one anyway.

I have the same sentiments to you on this one :

I suspect though that being originally a "PC" game, we're going to see something more hardcore than PL, but not as hardcore as say, WoW.

I really hope so too :)

[ratava]

I think that we're going to have to wait and see what it is like before casting judgment. The game could be very difficult. Or it could be about the same level as PL. I suspect though that being originally a "PC" game, we're going to see something more hardcore than PL, but not as hardcore as say, WoW.-snip-

My guess? The reason why there isn't a support class in PL is because there are 5 player slots on a team. If there were say, multiple sub-classes (ex: mage support, int mage, pally, dex mage, then dps bird, tank bird, maybe support bird, then attack bear, and the pure tank, along with a variation in between), you'd have situations where people would have to boot multiple times to get what they needed. PC games can largely avoid this because parties can have larger groups.

Other thoughts:
Even in PL, there are players who will rather choose to die rather than burn up pots when they gain the aggro.-snip-

V good points. Oc, mostly speculation but it's interesting thought experiments. :)

What is required:

1. 3 Classes => Each class must be
a) Good fun
b) Distinct playstyle
c) Be able to solo and take on a team-role according to the class in teams
d) Have Hybrid builds possible

2. 5 party limit => Each class needs to be flexible in how they play for all combinations of Tank-Healer-Mage:

1 player = 3 choices
2 player = 6
3 player = 10
4 player = 15
5 player = 21

Not all combination are going to be as effective in PvE eg numbers 1,2 players should be able to make progress (any combination of classes) and 4/5 perhaps team-roles varying effectiveness esp. with bosses. The dungeons don't scale for numbers in PL eg so classes need

(1) Solo gameplay = still fun
(2) Team roles = deeper gameplay (eg combos, buffs etc)

And what you say about pots counts a lot for being able to solo and have fun still.

Buffs seems to come into it more for the team roles... especially in PvP. A few random thoughts: I think classes need to have variety esp. if they want to solo

eg

DPS
Heal/SUPPORT (x1 self heal)
Tank/CC

But esp. in PvP be able to spec certain things eg Healer/Support aka Engineer have more advanced options for buffs etc. Does seem the UI needs have weapons that lead to a drill-down to skill-sets per weapon? That adds

a) tactics
b) customization

And eg buffs could be distributed somehow around these "weapons" so if you pull out the flamethrower you have a buff with that weapon (during GCD of all weapons) that you then depend on. Or stack lots of your buffs on 1 weapon so you are using that weapon to buff eg support more?

[Irconfuzed]

What about debuffs? Has anyone been around long enough to remember EverQuest, where you wouldn't think of trying anything in the planes without a shaman for their "slow" spell?
I think there's a lot of room for improvement and gameplay options in that department, and good debuffs could further enhance the support role.

[Ellyidol]

What about debuffs? Has anyone been around long enough to remember EverQuest, where you wouldn't think of trying anything in the planes without a shaman for their "slow" spell?
I think there's a lot of room for improvement and gameplay options in that department, and good debuffs could further enhance the support role.

Fully agreed, that's actually one thing that I haven't experienced in PL, a slow.

There are "stuns", roots, freezes, but no slows.

[Irconfuzed]

Im like you Ely, I prefer the tank/support role. Ill likely have an engineer alt in SL. I hope debuffs are part of the support class. Buff the party, cripple the enemy. Make for an easy clear. As for PvP, I played a druid in WoW. I was a tank in PVE and healer in PVP, and I found that changing your mindset about blasting your opponent into oblivion and into simply outlasting them made me a force to be reckoned with in PVP. My fights took forever, but with heals, debuffs, and a few damage spells I was indestructible.
So I wouldn't mind playing an engineer in PVP if the class is built right...just change the way you think and play when using a class like it.

[Ellyidol]

Im like you Ely, I prefer the tank/support role. Ill likely have an engineer alt in SL. I hope debuffs are part of the support class. Buff the party, cripple the enemy. Make for an easy clear. As for PvP, I played a druid in WoW. I was a tank in PVE and healer in PVP, and I found that changing your mindset about blasting your opponent into oblivion and into simply outlasting them made me a force to be reckoned with in PVP. My fights took forever, but with heals, debuffs, and a few damage spells I was indestructible.
So I wouldn't mind playing an engineer in PVP if the class is built right...just change the way you think and play when using a class like it.

Agreed, the best offense is a good defense.

If there is a true support/healing class in SL, I just might shift my interest from tank/bear to that one. I like to feel wanted.. :o

[Irconfuzed]

I like to feel wanted.. :o

Lol same....and I probably admit it more than I should.

[ratava]

Debuff idea about slowing down mobs is very interesting and could be a big part of gameplay. Eg love kiting already! But add slow-down ~ dodge too.. :)

If Commando has some interesting CC & damage to go with tanking will be interested... E3 screens needed.

[Irconfuzed]

Slow attack speed by 60% and/or movement by 60-80%?
I really wonder if SL will orient toward the AoE method like PL or we'll get more single target spells/skills.

[Zbooo]

Slow attack speed by 60% and/or movement by 60-80%?
I really wonder if SL will orient toward the AoE method like PL or we'll get more single target spells/skills.

The attack speed debuff should be a tank debuff just be cause it would be more stable for that class, Engineer Debuffs should very similar with the Mages debuffs but I'm not sure with the operative's debuffs maybe the movement decreasing debuff would be more suitable per se.

[WhoIsThis]

2. 5 party limit => Each class needs to be flexible in how they play for all combinations of Tank-Healer-Mage:

1 player = 3 choices
2 player = 6
3 player = 10
4 player = 15
5 player = 21

Not all combination are going to be as effective in PvE eg numbers 1,2 players should be able to make progress (any combination of classes) and 4/5 perhaps team-roles varying effectiveness esp. with bosses.



The problem with having so many combinations is that there need to be enough that are effective with just 5 slots. If you've got a situation where there's all support units (ex: lets imagine that there was in PL bear support (say, he has a really powerful hell scream, can buff his entire team with rage, evade, and iron blood, but can't really tank very well), bird support (say he can't DPS or tank, but likewise, really potent abilities like a say, a break armour that is 3x as powerful as a regular bird and a much better thorn wall), along with mage support, whose AOE is much weaker and being a support unit, is also very squishy). You host. You are a support unit and you host the game. Basically, you might as well roll a dice to see what comes to your game. Imagine if you got all support and one damage dealer, with no tank. Also, imagine that this is one of the hardest levels in the game. Options? Do you boot half your team?

In PC, it's easy. There are often 20 slots. A host starts. They wait until about 15 come in. The host often knows the first 5 people anyways. Then once about 15 come, they move out. With 20 slots, and dozens of combinations, odds are, you are going to get a good set of support, tank, and damage dealing units. With 5 slots though and dozens of combinations, things can get messy.

In fact, with just 3 classes and a few choices, I am told that one of the reasons why dual-speccing is popular is to be "wanted". This is very common already with bears and pallies.


Edit:
What I am saying is that in order to prevent this, we need classes than can do multiple roles (ex: support/damage dealer), tanks that can do a moderate amount of damage, etc. The other alternative is to have a more complex tree like a PC game, but to increase the number of slots per run (say 10) and up the difficulty, so that at least 7-8 players are needed that are highly specialized in their roles.

Specialization might have looked something like this:
- Bear tank/support/"warrior" (or damage dealing)
- Bird single target/support/perhaps an AOE one as well
- Mage AOE/support/single target

As it stands, you can have things like dex mages, but the difference isn't as dramatic. What is being proposed here is that certain equipment for example would be unique. The tankiest (highest armour and/or dodge) would go to the tank bear and ONLY the tank bear (ex: no other bear could wear it). Similarly, the gear that offers the highest skill damage in the game would go to the AOE mage and the highest damage per hit weapons to the "single target" birds exclusively. The support units would all have their own gear, which would probably come with a bunch of unique procs and the "warrior bear" would probably come with some sort of fairly potent melee weapon. This is an example, but in practice, it wouldn't deviate from this.

This has one problem - bandwidth consumption. We already know that SL will be more demanding in terms of hardware than PL (I may actually buy a new phone specifically for this game). What is going to happen with 10 people running around (and 20 in 10v10 PvP) to the bandwidth? Lagging problems are going to be much more serious, especially for people who have a slow Internet (like me).

[Ellyidol]

Very valid arguments Attack :)

I'm not exactly sure if we see eye to eye on the group limitation thing, since groups pretty much have limited space in all the MMOs I've played, those 10+ WoW things are different. So yes, the mix and match of a group will always be a problem, IMO. Especially in a game such as PL/SL where pick-up crosses hardcore, we wouldn't really know which of these games are.

As for the bandwidth, I wouldn't really know. I hate to bring up another game, but Order and Chaos has the open-world aspect of an MMO, although it's currently Wifi only, (I'm not sure how huge the difference of Wifi/3G is in terms of bandwidth), I think it shows that its fairly doable. Anyway, off-topic there.

Classes being all-around instead of being specialized is a bit contradicting to how the grouping system works though. Unless you plan on solo-ing an entire map (let's use Hideout) for things like more mob kills or testing, you'd actually be forced to group up with players. Since we're grouping up anyway, I'm not entirely convinced that soloability is that huge of an issue. Maybe booting, which is another topic altogether.

This got me to thinking of an alternate solution to generalising/specialising and keeping in mind how popular dual specs are. What if we had two paths, A and B (opposites - Healer/Offensive or Tank/Damage), and we could swap between A or B like a loadout, but only outside of combat. That way, you still get the diversity of either build, you have more depth in your character, more gear is wanted, and more diversity in overall grouping and PvP.

[Irconfuzed]

I would be a big fan of "spec" loadouts. Switching from a set of skills/stats for a given occasion is being done in other games I know of. With only 3 core classes I have to wonder if each will have specialized enough skill paths to make it viable in SL.

[WhoIsThis]

Swappable loadouts could solve this. It's a good idea.

I think what would end up happening is equal to the following in PL.

2 examples:
Strength bear
- Tank bear - very high dodge and armor; possibly procing iron blood and evade; but at a penalty to dodge. Requires strength to use.
- War bear - high weapons damage per hit, also buffs hit%; but at the expense of armour and dodge. Needs strength too.

Int mage
- High AOE power - weaker heal, but extremely powerful AOE. Poor survivability; needs int
- High support power - strong heal and buffs. AOE powers are weakened. Also poor survivability and needs int.

In both cases, being an strength bear or an int mage is viable in 2 roles. Only drawback is that everyone would need to own multiple sets. You would want to be a war bear in the presence of another bear and a support mage in the presence of other classes with high damage.


Edit:
but at a penalty to dodge

Should be:
but at a penalty to damage

[Ellyidol]

Swappable loadouts could solve this. It's a good idea.

I think what would end up happening is equal to the following in PL.

2 examples:
Strength bear
- Tank bear - very high dodge and armor; possibly procing iron blood and evade; but at a penalty to dodge. Requires strength to use.
- War bear - high weapons damage per hit, also buffs hit%; but at the expense of armour and dodge. Needs strength too.

Int mage
- High AOE power - weaker heal, but extremely powerful AOE. Poor survivability; needs int
- High support power - strong heal and buffs. AOE powers are weakened. Also poor survivability and needs int.

In both cases, being an strength bear or an int mage is viable in 2 roles. Only drawback is that everyone would need to own multiple sets. You would want to be a war bear in the presence of another bear and a support mage in the presence of other classes with high damage.

Very much agreed! :)

I wouldn't really call it a drawback, IMO. It would seem like more things to aim for when building your character. After all their experience in PL, I think STS would know by now how much a set is sought after, and hopefully making them that much rarer or longer to obtain.

How about a bird? :p

Single target vs AoE? Or melee vs ranged?

[Kingofhurtz]

Based from my observations in comparisons between PL and other games in terms of buffs, it seemed pretty clear that,

In PL, the buffs the character can use (Iron Blood/Evade/Rage for bears, Shield/BoM/BoV for mages, Focus/Evade for birds) actually make or break a character, especially in pvp.

Stemming from that, I was thinking that the self-cast buffs that each class has, buffs that only a class can get and are not from someone else (like Revive buff, small BoM/BoV buff), should not be a deciding factor between a win or a lose. Unfortunately, in PL, that is the case I've noticed. Whoever has buffs on will win a fight or mass pvp fight even if the opponent doesn't really do much.

What do you think should happen in SL?

Just an example of the above, I'm currently leveling a dex/str bear. He's level 34 ATM and with rage, hits 60-70 and crits at about 130. Without rage, he hits 6-7. With iron blood and evade, he take a good number of hits. W/O either, he's down in two hits.
I don't find it good that we are literally completely dependent upon buffs. Once my rage loses it's affect but is still technically in use, I'm literally USELESS to the party until I can rebuff. Hitting 7 will do NOTHING to enemies with 100's of health.
I do realize I am complaining but for the life of me, cannot think of a good solution...

[Irconfuzed]

As far as dual spec in PL as it is now, the only practical use I can think of would be for bears. As a STR tank bear I find myself often in groups with a higher lvl tank who does a decent job. In that case I generally throw on a two hand weapon and slide into a dps role and try to be very careful in my use of taunt and beckon so I don't disturb the tank's tempo.
It would be very nice in this case to have a preset loadout to spec into a dex build to be as effective as possible to the group.
As for SL, from what I've seen so far I think we'll see some complexity in the class builds that just aren't there in PL. Im still trying to wrap my head around the weapon uses and how they'll affect class play. Interesting though.

[ratava]

Yup some g8 posts ^^^ Like the ideas about flexibility :)

Edit: We may have some q's answered when we see e3 footage/screenies... :cool:

[WhoIsThis]

We need some hard numbers before making an assessment.

The problem here is that the buffs need to potent enough to be worth getting, yet at the same time, we shouldn't be dependent on them. This will be very important for PvP.

[Ellyidol]

We need some hard numbers before making an assessment.

The problem here is that the buffs need to potent enough to be worth getting, yet at the same time, we shouldn't be dependent on them. This will be very important for PvP.

Now that I think about it, finding the perfect balance is going to be really hard.

If they aren't that good, the way the PL skill allocation is built, we can completely avoid it.

If they are that good, then well, same problem as now.

One way I see in order to deal with it is,

Nerf buffs, but make them a pre-requisite for a skill needed/wanted.

In PL terms, maybe something like :

Rage for Stomp/SMS.
Focus for Blast Shot.
BoM for Drain Life.

All assuming that they've been nerfed though.

[TheLaw]

But with this, everyone would want a mage/healer. :O

[WhoIsThis]

But with this, everyone would want a mage/healer. :O

That's actually an interesting point. Without buffs, being a mage is an advantage. You can heal much more so than bears and birds. It's also going to be harder to kill in one volley, which makes heal more valuable.

Perhaps the devs had their reasons for making buffs so potent?

[Ellyidol]

But with this, everyone would want a mage/healer. :O

I think it'd depend on how specialized we can go.

If there's a total separate class for a healer, with all the best buffs, a group would definitely want a healer. But for solo play, it'd depend on how it's built IMO.

If they squeeze in an offensive mage + a supportive healer (still with the best buffs) in one, then definitely everyone will be wanting to make one.



That's actually an interesting point. Without buffs, being a mage is an advantage. You can heal much more so than bears and birds. It's also going to be harder to kill in one volley, which makes heal more valuable.

Perhaps the devs had their reasons for making buffs so potent?


Probably..

Now that it's a new game though, and how devs were admitting that it was a mistake to balance PvE first before PvP, one way to balance PvP, IMO, is to put less emphasis on the buffs and more on team play.

ATM, Buffs > Heal. Take this situation :

Group A vs Group B (3v3) fight. One mage, one bear, one bird.

Both buff up, both engage, group A wins.

Group B respawns and regroups.

Group A's mage heals everyone in Group A back to full HP.

Group B charges for Group A, B has newly popped buffs, A just expired.

More often than not, Group B will win, even if Group A is supposedly a "better" team.

[WhoIsThis]

I suppose that's why "running" is frowned upon. I will admit that if I can help it, avoid engaging buffed enemies unbuffed. Suicide really.

Still, now that things are being built from ground up - what should it be like?

- More combos between different classes? Need to be potent enough to be worth it (ex: nature strike), and able to cast frequently (mega combos aren't), but at the same time, can't be OP (nature strike is potent but very rarely seen in PvP).
- Certain synergies (an example would be say, I was in PL and I had a bear, a bird, and a mage; I get some sort of bonus, like +5% hp)?

Remember, we still have a limited number of character slots per team.

[TheLaw]

I think it'd depend on how specialized we can go.

If there's a total separate class for a healer, with all the best buffs, a group would definitely want a healer. But for solo play, it'd depend on how it's built IMO.

If they squeeze in an offensive mage + a supportive healer (still with the best buffs) in one, then definitely everyone will be wanting to make one.

I don't think so. But this would overpower the mage class. And PvP would be reckless.

[Ellyidol]

I suppose that's why "running" is frowned upon. I will admit that if I can help it, avoid engaging buffed enemies unbuffed. Suicide really.

Still, now that things are being built from ground up - what should it be like?

- More combos between different classes? Need to be potent enough to be worth it (ex: nature strike), and able to cast frequently (mega combos aren't), but at the same time, can't be OP (nature strike is potent but very rarely seen in PvP).
- Certain synergies (an example would be say, I was in PL and I had a bear, a bird, and a mage; I get some sort of bonus, like +5% hp)?

Remember, we still have a limited number of character slots per team.

To be honest, I have no idea how it should proceed. Lol :p

That's just how I see it. Buffs are completely defining a character and PvP/PvE, which, IMO, shouldn't be.

I'm not sure what STS has in store for us in SL.

Maybe remove buffs entirely and switch the capabilities to gear? Or nerf buffs then switch emphasis to gear? No idea. Lol

[Zbooo]

If the ideas that have been suggested about Mages are applied it would make the class the most favorite for PvP, just like the bear is is PL.


Hopefully PvP would be player skill based in the future but for that to happen we have to play and give our feedback.

[Irconfuzed]

I don't see an issue in PvP as far as self buffs. My problem with PvP across several games has been the one shot. Seems as soon as you come into range you get insta-killed. Ive never been much of a PvPer due to this. Even in WoW I ran with a decent 5v5 team and had excellent resilience gear (resilience was their solution to the dreaded one shot. The more resilience you had the less chance you had of being the victim of a critical hit). And it was still tough being a healer...I always had a big target on my back from the start.
Maybe since STS has planned to balance PvP first and PvE second this wont be such an issue.
I do see the reliance on buffs being a problem. If say the engineer buffs are game breakers and you pop into a PvP arena and the only engineer is on the other team it kinda stacks the deck.
This is sort of a unique problem to this mobile MMO thing. The pick up game nature of PL and probably SL is to blame and both would probably benefit from some sort of system that drops players into a queue and forms the groups based on some sort of predetermined group mix. Of course it should be a choice to enter the queue or go straight to the arena.

[deafmaster]

The solution could be simple: mimic one of the most classic pvp (battlemode) of all times... Mario Kart. It was super addictive and every battle was teeth grinding and always close. Why? becausee players started out each battle on completely even ground. You pick up your weapons as you went along. This added some parts luck, but a huge part of skill and strategy as well. Players with lesser weapons could come out winning, just by using their skills and the terrain to their advantage. It was a completely different style of game I know, but I'm just saying if the same kind of principles were applied to SL, it would be epic!!! My 2 pennies :banana:

[Zbooo]

People, I want you to realize that this is more towards the SL and not PL itself, in order to fix the PL PvP they have to re-strip all the classes and re-balance them.

[Irconfuzed]

PL is all we have to build off of...STS hasn't been very forthcoming with details...

[Zbooo]

PL is all we have to build off of...STS hasn't been very forthcoming with details...

We can't really expect that STS will follow the same PvP mindset that PL has since SL is made by a different team anyway, we all know that PL PvP is really faulty.

[WhoIsThis]

I just realized something for PL.

As the level caps go up, we can expect to be more and more dependant on our buffs. Why? If current trends hold, we will soon have up to 7 points to spend per skill and you can bet that it will be essential to max out our buffs. This means that the difference in being buffed and unbuffed will keep growing.

[ChrisFI]

I'm most good at the warrior character and its skills/buffs. But not to shabby with the bird and have no idea about the mage. It PL ofcourse the build makes wether your character is good or not. The most important skills to have ones that increase your damage (dps), accuracy, dodge, armor, the higher percentage of your ability to stun or stop your enemy and to debuff your enemies damage, dodge, and armor as much as possible. And ofcourse having skills and weapons that give high damage with high dps and thats not to slow. ALso ofcourse good armor.

Generally buffs are important, but debuffs are most important. As a warrior i look to debuff the enemy as much as i can while i buff myself to my best taking them out as quickly as i can with taking as little damage as possible.

There will most definetly be different skills on each character in SL but buffs and debuffs will still be a great factor in not only PvP but PvE