Lets discuss the Rogue Arcane Daggers

[Kakashis]

Tried them out just now... wow, they don't look pretty, they rarely proc, the damage is low, and no gimmick. Warrior's has awesome fire pits that do decent burn damage, mage looks likes he's summoning the power of the sun over and over again... full of awesomeness. Rogue... just plain, boring, and doesn't really do much. For all those who were waiting for something awesome for rogues, skip these. STS really needs to get on either buffing these daggers, morphing it into an OP bow, or offer refunds of plat/millions of gold on trade in. As they are, they are completely pointless and not worthy of the name ARCANE.

[Anynna]

They have to do something with these daggers ... they'll just rot in the cs =(

[Zylx]

Wait till they drop to 1m, buy one, then STS majorly buffs them, and then they'll be worth 15m

[Zeus]

I hope that the daggers can be better than what they currently are:

• 90 skill damage LESS than bow
This is a significant amount of damage that you are losing and will not be able to make up.

• Rare proc
The armor reduction only happens if target gets stunned, which is rarely.

• Proc range too close
This is the only arcane weapon of the three where you need to have a target to proc. I hope this can be addressed.

• 36 stat damage less than glintstone bow
This coupled 90 skill damage less makes these daggers an nonviable choice for rogues when compared to the glintstone bow.

I sincerely hope STG will remedy this and balance all weapons. If they can, please also look into the staff's skill damage as it also suffers the same issue as daggers (100 skill damage less than mythic gun). The warrior weapon is the only one of value here.

Thank you for hearing out my advice.

[mesalin]

It's ridiculously of how much of a failure these daggers are:

• 200 skill damage LESS than bow
I don't care how OP the proc is, that is a significant amount of damage that you are losing and will not be able to make up unless the proc grants instant kill.

• rare proc
The armor reduction only happens if target gets stunned, which is rarely.

• must be 2 inches from death to get chance to proc
This is the only arcane weapon of the three where you need to have a target to proc. C'mon STG, you guys can do better.

• 36 stat damage less than glintstone bow
This coupled with a MASSIVE 200 skill damage less puts these daggers with a fate worse than the titanic. These daggers have sunk before they even got the chance to set sail.

I'm sorely disappointed...I sincerely hope STG will remedy this and balance all weapons. While they're at it, also look into the staff and fix skill damage deficiency. 100 skill damage less than L46 mythic gun is ridiculous. The warrior weapon is the only one of value here.
So what to do now... I planned get these daggers instead fervor bow

<Forgiveness>

[Ravager]

It's ridiculously of how much of a failure these daggers are:

• 200 skill damage LESS than bow
I don't care how OP the proc is, that is a significant amount of damage that you are losing and will not be able to make up unless the proc grants instant kill.

• rare proc
The armor reduction only happens if target gets stunned, which is rarely.

• must be 2 inches from death to get chance to proc
This is the only arcane weapon of the three where you need to have a target to proc. C'mon STG, you guys can do better.

• 36 stat damage less than glintstone bow
This coupled with a MASSIVE 200 skill damage less puts these daggers with a fate worse than the titanic. These daggers have sunk before they even got the chance to set sail.

I'm sorely disappointed...I sincerely hope STG will remedy this and balance all weapons. While they're at it, also look into the staff and fix skill damage deficiency. 100 skill damage less than L46 mythic gun is ridiculous. The warrior weapon is the only one of value here.

Ok. Now that you pointed out the negatives, what do you suggest? I think it should be equivalent or slightly better damage than Glintstone bow?
It would be awkward if the proc happened on whiff. It seemed like to me, with the daggers, it was hard for me to proc because the weapon would constantly try to autocalibrate/autotarget mobs thus slowing down the attack and lowering the chance of proc'ing.

I think they were trying to preserve the mythic weapons. But at this point, its either preserve the bow or the daggers.

[Serancha]

Seeing as the damage issue is already being well discussed, here are my other findings on the blades so far.

A test of these new daggers compared to older generations of blades (alps, dimensional, mountain teeth, goblin skewers, magmatic etc.) shows that the animation / attack speed on the new Dragon blades is reduced by 1/3 to 1/2 compared to the speed of the others. The animation seems to have changed to remove much of the fast slicing and use more of the slower kicks.

Seeing as the blades only proc on auto-attack, this sticky-feeling slowed action is probably what is leading to the proc rates being lower than anticipated.

I have always preferred daggers to bows, almost entirely because they have such a nice fast responsive feel to them. I find this slowed down action to be distracting and awkward. One would think that an arcane weapon would be at least as fast as the crate daggers from earlier seasons. I wouldn't even regret some damage loss so much (aside from the logistical factors of these being arcane weapons, and what this means for the coming expansion gear stats) if we could get some proper dagger-ish speed out of these.

Proc on skill use would be beneficial also.

[Ravager]

Proc on skill use would just seem awkward for this weapon. Long range stun on a rogue would probably be a little overboard.

I think they need to fix the damage and fix the autoattack so it is easier to hit the mobs/opponents.

[Kingofninjas]

The way rogue daggers proc definitely needs to be changed, but proc on skill use is not the solution. Rogue skill CD is too short for that.

IMO a blanket 250 skill dmg (and whatever that equivalent stat dmg is) would do the trick. The staff too needs a 150 skill dmg boost. No complaints on the proc except that this staff seems to be slower to charge than other staffs, much like Serancha pointed out the dags were. 3 seconds to charge just isn't viable in a clash.

[Kakashis]

Yes, these are all viable suggestions and should have been implemented from the start. Also, perhaps charging the dags should do something like the mages staff. It should be useful enough that's actually worth charging. Maybe a super crit team buff? Can't even play around with them in towns trying to proc something cool.

[Zylx]

This coupled with a MASSIVE 200 skill damage less puts these daggers with a fate worse than the titanic.

*gasp* D': what's wrong with Titanic ://// lol

[Jazzi]

Seeing as the damage issue is already being well discussed, here are my other findings on the blades so far.

A test of these new daggers compared to older generations of blades (alps, dimensional, mountain teeth, goblin skewers, magmatic etc.) shows that the animation / attack speed on the new Dragon blades is reduced by 1/3 to 1/2 compared to the speed of the others. The animation seems to have changed to remove much of the fast slicing and use more of the slower kicks.

Seeing as the blades only proc on auto-attack, this sticky-feeling slowed action is probably what is leading to the proc rates being lower than anticipated.

I have always preferred daggers to bows, almost entirely because they have such a nice fast responsive feel to them. I find this slowed down action to be distracting and awkward. One would think that an arcane weapon would be at least as fast as the crate daggers from earlier seasons. I wouldn't even regret some damage loss so much (aside from the logistical factors of these being arcane weapons, and what this means for the coming expansion gear stats) if we could get some proper dagger-ish speed out of these.

Proc on skill use would be beneficial also.

The attack speed being slower than legendary daggers is really confusing tbh. I used ghoulish blades for a long time last season and they conveyed a feeling of truly fast and fluid auto attack. Cant say s about the arcane daggers.

What is more confusing is that they were made clearly inferior to the mythic bows. I could have understood if they were made with a bit more damage, so that the bows are still competitive, but now bows are just better. I mean come on, those are arcane daggers and people have been waiting for a new arcane weapon for rogue for 4 expansions (2,5 years?) and that is what we get?!?

Lastly the gear progression (aka itemization plan) is a gear regression most of the time sadly. I hope that lvl 56 won't bring us back to lvl 36 stats lol :D

[oekeone]

#save the rogue daggers

[Serancha]

Proc on skill use would just seem awkward for this weapon. Long range stun on a rogue would probably be a little overboard.

I think they need to fix the damage and fix the autoattack so it is easier to hit the mobs/opponents.


The way rogue daggers proc definitely needs to be changed, but proc on skill use is not the solution. Rogue skill CD is too short for that.

IMO a blanket 250 skill dmg (and whatever that equivalent stat dmg is) would do the trick. The staff too needs a 150 skill dmg boost. No complaints on the proc except that this staff seems to be slower to charge than other staffs, much like Serancha pointed out the dags were. 3 seconds to charge just isn't viable in a clash.


I agree with you both, and it was only a suggestion to try and get some ideas generating. No point just stating what's wrong without offering up alternative ideas for discussion.

I think the autoattack range may be shorter than it should be on these also, but have not had time to test that yet.

[Devrail]

I'm sitting here thinking to myself, why did I spend 700 dollars for this. I went from 8000 plat used to about 30000, to be suprised with the magical feeling of arcane daggers!

Cough cough, actually, they are the new legendary daggers!
Sts you guys really messed up on this one. The warrior weapon absoluty demolishes us with those pools, and the sorc wep keeps pulling us, with a ridiculous killing combo in clashes.

Now I know these weapons are also supposed to be decent in PvE, but the daggers rarely ever proc! We need a fix on this and some more damage. The loss between a fervor bow and daggers is crazy.

#SaveTheBlades


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Zeus]

Ok. Now that you pointed out the negatives, what do you suggest? I think it should be equivalent or slightly better damage than Glintstone bow?
It would be awkward if the proc happened on whiff. It seemed like to me, with the daggers, it was hard for me to proc because the weapon would constantly try to autocalibrate/autotarget mobs thus slowing down the attack and lowering the chance of proc'ing.

I think they were trying to preserve the mythic weapons. But at this point, its either preserve the bow or the daggers.

The arcane weapon is better for some classes than others. Thus, this indicates a clear imbalance and something that needs to be remedied.

[acewasabi]

from my relatively nub perspective, i bought a clean pair and compared them to clean tact bow in km3 and rengol maps. there was no noticeable advantage to the daggers in terms of pots used or time taken, and the proc was rare. like, really rare. i felt the 2m mythic bow exceeded the 4.5m arcane daggers (which i sold after testing).

although it's possible they'll get buffed, i don't wanna count on it. i do think it's unfair to change stats once items have been looted and traded. but maybe adjusting the proc (incl frequency) could be a way forward.

[Serancha]

An arcane weapon that is theoretically supposed to be the top weapon at level 56, yet is far inferior to the level 46 mythic weapons we already have. That means the 46 mythics will remain the best weapon at 56? What incentive is there to even play the next cap? What's next? Making the glinstone set upgradeable to 56? At this point it wouln't even surprise me.

There will always be people who want their items to remain the best forever. However, when the devs cater to those few, it means there is no reason for anyone to play future seasons. If someone doesn't want new items because they saved up and bought something, how long is that person going to be a customer? Not long. People who play games on an ongoing basis do it for fun through a sense of challenge, risk, reward and accomplishment.

If you already have the best items and everything released subsequently is inferior, it leaves nothing to work for. No incentive, no way to make money, no reward for hard work, and most importantly, no way to progress or improve your character.

StS, please:

* Re-implement actual gear progression where new gear is always better than the old.

* Retain the original structure of Arcane > Mythic > Legendary.

* Realize that a very occasional proc of any type does not compensate for a loss of 200 skill damage.

* Make the proc on arcane weapons worthy of arcane. In season 4 (just for an example) the legendary daggers had a 100% crit proc. I think most would agree that in comparison, an occasional stun and possible armour reduction is not really arcane. Especially when the proc rate is much reduced and the blades are slower.

* Stop making mythic weapons 100+ damage better than the legendaries and then claiming you can't release better gear because we are getting too strong.

If you made the mythic weapons even 10 damage better than the legendaries, then you wouldn't have to do this back-statting every season. It would also allow you to make new armour and jewlery that has stat improvements over the old. Honestly, I have never heard of developers anywhere that are so adverse to allowing players to progress.

[Jazzi]

I did some more testing more testing by doing solo runs in elite wilds with glint bow of guile, glint dagger of guile and the new arcane daggers. Did 3 runs with each weapon.
Pet used was nekro and I also used 30% damage elixir. The results were:
- runs were about 20 seconds faster on average with the bow;
- the runs with arcane daggers and glint daggers (a 400k weapon) had about the same speed;
- the glint daggers were actually procing more often than the arcane daggers

Conclusion: The arcane daggers might give you slightly more hp and mana than the glint daggers but those are on par in terms of performance. In regards to this it is currently better to use a bow (about same price as arcane daggers) or glint daggers (about 10-11 times cheaper than arcane daggers)

[Kakashis]

This weapon undermines game progression as the old is greater than the new. I'm usually not one to complain about anything as things are relatively smooth or well thought out in other ways. This time however, someone royally messed up and some corrections need to be made. Many have spend hundreds of dollars to loot these only to come up short on expectations. STS u can do better than this!

[Tatman]

There is nothing to discuss. Devs have no good move right now. Only course of action, that won't lead to more outcry, issues and negative long term consequences, is find a time machine and go back a few weeks in time. :)

[Zeus]

There is nothing to discuss. Devs have no good move right now. Only course of action, that won't lead to more outcry, issues and negative long term consequences, is find a time machine and go back a few weeks in time. :)

I would hold on and be a little bit more patient, they might have something up their sleeve. Who knows?

[ladymage]

I would hold on and be a little bit more patient, they might have something up their sleeve. Who knows?

Totally agree. Sts always listens.

[Kakashis]

Totally agree. Sts always listens.

I just hope they don't sit too long on this one and "see how it plays out." There's already been some extensive tests and they do indeed slow down the run and don't make things more effective or faster during runs. This is not the weapon we've been waiting for since kraken hooks. Keeping them as they are will only lead to joke punch lines down the road. "Arcane Dags" will be the next meme to deary.

[Tatman]

I would hold on and be a little bit more patient, they might have something up their sleeve. Who knows?
What I mean is whether you leave dags like this or buff them - it will lead to issues. In certain circles this is called zugzwang.

[Zeus]

What I mean is whether you leave dags like this or buff them - it will lead to issues. In certain circles this is called zugzwang.

Yep, check out this thread I posted to help avoid situations like this in the future:

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?296444-A-Suggestion-For-Future-Updates

[Zeus]

I totally agree there is nothing to be done without causing any more mess. this is kinda stressful time that people dont know buff gonna come or not, many people are panicking. As you can see when they made update about warr proc bug fix people took dagger from auc. same stuff gonna happen over and over again. I personally hate this uncertainty.I trust sts that they stand behind their desigion and not play around with tweaking stats of weapons.
Also stats were introduced before release in weekly community update and it was visible that dagger wont gonna overpower the bow from its stats. the buff or nerf issue could have been discussed during that time not after release. this isnt fun to change stats of weaps after release

The changes are being put forth Monday.

[mesalin]

grats your crying worked!
We didn't crying. We are just post our feedbacks , opinion based on experience and testing from daggers.
STG listen to it and it's their decision. It's true they failed a little that daggers and now they try to 'repair' it.


<Forgiveness>

[Gorecaster]

Sometimes I wonder who's running this game, players or developers?

[Kakashis]

Its their desicion? oh ok how about the desicion when they release the stats that way in first place. Wasnt it their desicion too?

yes, the stats were posted, but no one can tell what they actually are on our toon until we actually equip it. After we looted/bought a pair, we saw the final low numbers on raw damage and skill damage. Fine. We'll go for test runs with them all over Arlor in elites and perhaps the Proc can make up for some short coming damage. The runs were slower and had no benefit to actually owning these daggers.

At this point as a player, we bring it to the attention to the developers who just released these weapons that are brand new. No one wants to buy a Playstation 4 only to find out that the Playstation 3 is faster and runs smoother! If it's item progression they're after, it doesn't make sense that the weapon is worse than the predecessor. The decision to buff or nerf such items is left up to the developers which is at the end of the day, based on player feedback. It's a dynamic and never a static process.

For all we know on Monday, they can just say no, they're actually okay as being inferior and new mythic bows will be out at 56 cap to replace them anyways. They could also give them a tiny 10 damage buff just for the purposes of saying they did something. What we're all hoping for is just a weapon that is in line with the other two's OPness and something that we actually want to use. I for one would like to see the later happening because it'll be something to look forward to actually using. Do top players still use 41 Mythic weapons or the 26 Hooks at endgame? It's in the best interest of the game that new stuff is better than the old stuff especially if it's at the top tier "Arcane". Until Monday's announcement, the future of these daggers is still up in the air.

I for one am really interested in seeing what they'll actually do with them. Adding damage alone or increasing the proc rate a little would not bring these things back from the grave. A 100% proc rate would make them too OP at the same time. I'm always psyched to see STS's update Wednesdays and Fridays, and this Dagger discussion over the weekend is actually quite exciting!

[BlueSkied]

guys, this is a game meant for enjoyment.

[OdMickey]

Sometimes I wonder who's running this game, players or developers?

My thoughts on the daggers might be considered unpopular. But i do think a buff stat-wise is unnecessary. The proc however, does need to be fixed. Although granted that game progression on gear seems to be haywire as of late, I still think there needs to be more accountability in terms of planning these things prior to release, rather than put it out there and change it subject to the clamor of the masses. Inadvertently, this might be compounding the imbalance in the game.

[Kakashis]

My thoughts on the daggers might be considered unpopular. But i do think a buff stat-wise is unnecessary. The proc however, does need to be fixed. Although granted that game progression on gear seems to be haywire as of late, I still think there needs to be more accountability in terms of planning these things prior to release, rather than put it out there and change it subject to the clamor of the masses. Inadvertently, this might be compounding the imbalance in the game.

If only the proc alone is buffed, you're looking at minus 200 damage over a bow. That would equate to slow runs. Nowadays it's not about finishing, but finishing it faster. Almost anyone who has these endgame best items has beat every single map, but just looking to run them better. It gets repetitive, but better weapons helps! Pvp wise, you're definately currently better off with a bow.

[thekragle]

There is no doubt that the damage and proc should be at least comparable to the best mythic weapon in the game. I remember when arcane weapons were practically impossible to get and were amazingly better than the mythic equipment. That should be the case here too. The blades dont even need that big of a buff, just fix proc chance and add a little more dps and we should hear less outcry. Just my opinion.