Thought I had on str vs dex

[kinawarrior]

I uderstand that dex gives the same amount to crit as str does. And, I understand that dex gives you raw damage and dps. That being said, here is my question.

For the sole use of a str bear (meaning, i will not want to ever equip any dex items), would I be able to do more actual damage if I pump all my stats into str opposed to the min for str and the rex to dex?

The only reason I am asking is because str affects skill damage, and that is where all of our DPS comes from.

I think we can all agree that a pure int enchantress does more damage than an enchantress with their stats mixed, and same goes for bird.

So, for a bear that only wants to wield swords, should they go all str to get the most damage possible?

I may play around with some speccing to give some results for people to post their opinions on....so, it's time to find that thread on how to take screenshots and post them on your ipad... :)

[Kraze]

IMO a pure str bear isnt that great. Skill dmg is nice but if your missing a ton what's it matter? I'd recomend at least enough dex to get to 100% hit. MISS does no damage no matter how powerful the skill is

[Otukura]

Dex gives more skill damage to bears than strength does, only by about 12 damage at end game I think.

[kinawarrior]

ooh yes, i forgot about hit%, we bears lack in that category greatly. I think with that point being made I won't even play around with my build and leave it as is :)

[WhoIsThis]

Dex gives more crit than str. Not much more, but a slightly amount more. 0.002% more.

As others have pointed out, pure strength bears aren't that effective due to their low hit.

[friedkimchi]

I once saw a lvl 55 bear wearing fortified sword set, pure str and had 65% hit.
Crazy health, but damage was nothing special.
A dual spec bear with average bow could easily out damage a pure str bear wearing the best equips.

So in short, dual spec is the way to go.
:banana:

[Tempest]

So if i were to make a str bear... should i go min str, rest dex?

[Silentarrow]

I'd try going half and half. Check Ellyidol's duel spec guide.

[Mr.Wallace]

Aaaaaand you could check the "how to spec your end game bear" thingee in my sig...

[Oewaden]

I agree with Silentarrow, I know you mentioned never equiping any DEX items, but you should really look in to dual-speccing. I was pure STR for the longest time and then finally tried it out and was suprised that you really don't lose that much armor and health versus the benefits you receive. Been dual spec ever since and love it, tank just as well if not better (with the extra hit) than before. It's really nice to be able to slap on a bow if there are other capable tanks in the group to help the run go faster. Not to mention, solo'ing CTK or PP for cash goes WAY faster, lol.

[CrimsonTider]

MrWallace and Ellyidol have guides which focus solely on this matter. Also, there are tons of threads on this discussion. NOT flaming, but make sure to use the search feature on the forums before making a thread about an already existing topic. :)

With that said, the answer to your question is simple: Dual-spec.

[Tamino]

It was said above by the author, but I repeat it here: if you do not plan to use DEX gears, you do not need to go dual (that is what I do prefer, but ain't you). Then checking Mr.Wallace guide here, 173 STR / 111 DEX.

[NECROREAPER]

Adding points to STR. ups the bear skill damage, just as dex and int up bird and mage skill damage respectively.

[Kraze]

Adding points to STR. ups the bear skill damage, just as dex and int up bird and mage skill damage respectively.
True but I stand by the fact that it's worth dumping points in to dex to make sure you're beckon is effective

[NECROREAPER]

True but I stand by the fact that it's worth dumping points in to dex to make sure you're beckon is effective

As do I, which I why I only put enough points into dex to make my hit 100% with my chosen gear and then the rest into str. since im an attack bear and I rely on skill damage.

[Otukura]

As do I, which I why I only put enough points into dex to make my hit 100% with my chosen gear and then the rest into str. since im an attack bear and I rely on skill damage.

But dex has more skill damage!!!

[NECROREAPER]

But dex has more skill damage!!!

But str also adds more skill damage for bear skills.

Hahahahaha they made this game too difficult

[friedkimchi]

But str also adds more skill damage for bear skills.

Hahahahaha they made this game too difficult

Care to share how much skill damage the various slashes and stomp have? Always wanted to compare.

My skill damage: With Custom Raid Recurve Set + 1% Crit, 11 Damage Ring
Total Critical with no buffs: 49

Vengeful Slash (Lvl 3) : 206-247
Crippling Slash (Lvl 3) : 206-234
Super Mega Slash (Lvl 6): 242-297
Stomp (Lvl 6): 254-270

Not listing my skill damage with str (tanking) gear as dealing damage is not a priority while tanking.

Lvl 55: Str 137, Dex 142.
Lvl 56: Str 142, Dex 142

[NECROREAPER]

Surely :)

Im using hate set coupled with gurgox hammer, I find lvl 50 gear works better for my style of play.

My stats:
STR: 207
DEX: 107
Hit: 100%
Crit: 24

Vengeful Slash (lv 6): 247-295
Stomp (Lv 6): 241-260
Super Mega Slash (Lv 6): 227-289

[Tamino]

Mine (Dual Ursan, base 142 STR, 137 DEX):

With Custom Recurve set (DEX):
Hit: 130%
Crit: 48
Stomp (lev 6): 259 (max)
SMS (lev 5): 275 (max)

With a mix of Royal Sewer/Bellow's/Rooter's (STR):
Hit: 93%
Crit: 35
Stomp (lev 6): 260 (max)
SMS (lev 5): 278 (max)

With Royal Sewer Helm/Plate and Gurgox Hammer (STR):
Hit: 95%
Crit: 16
Stomp (lev 6): 253 (max)
SMS (lev 5): 271 (max)

[Mr.Wallace]

From all the builds I have tried, I had the maximum skill damage with a dual build while wearing a recurve.
At the moment:

133 Str, 151 Dex
Custom Recurve set
132 Hit
49 Crit
Stomp max 270
SMS max 296

Royal/Rooter/Bellow
95 Hit
27 Crit
Stomp max 249
SMS max 277

For some bad numbers: Fury 1H Sword set
89 Hit
11 Crit
Stomp max 231
SMS max 260

So my conclusion after many, many - believe me, many - respecs: As a bear, the allocation of stat points to dex doesn't effect your skill damage as much much as your skill points (duh!) and the gear you wear.

So if you are aiming for maximum skill damage, chose the gear providing the highest skill damage (RR or Custom Recurve at the moment as far as I know) - and that leads to the stat point allocation you need to wear that gear.

But in my opinion the making a build just maximum skill damage is just as wrong as making a build just for maximum DPS. I think the best build is the one you play best with. I heard of OK-ish bears wearing Custom Talon and Wing - and that is really low DPS and terrible skill damage. :)

[Tamino]

I heard of OK-ish bears wearing Custom Talon and Wing - and that is really low DPS and terrible skill damage. :)
I never played with your bear (maybe your mage?), but according to Ellydol you are one of these :p



I have always preferred a bow in mob clearing, while Wallace prefers a talon/wing. There is no right answer, just preference.

[friedkimchi]

Thanks for the comparisons.

It's impressive that Tamio's second setup yields good skill damage+critical given the equips are 'cheap'.

[WhoIsThis]

But in my opinion the making a build just maximum skill damage is just as wrong as making a build just for maximum DPS.

For tanks, I'd agree.

But for damage dealing builds, I'd have to disagree. Pure int mage and pure dex bird are among the most popular builds in the game for a reason. Mage especially, because so much of a mage's damage comes from their skills and not their main weapons. As pure int, you're sacrificing survivability (dodge, hp, health regen), hit %, crit %, and main weapons damage for higher skill base damage (pally and dex mage are both viable builds). For bird, apart from warbird which is good for pvp, for pve, there's no real reason not to go pure dex (also an effective build for pvp). If I had to choose between maximizing skill and weapons damage though for bird, I'd choose maximizing skill damage. Fortunately, dex does both.

Out of curiosity, who is your mage?

[Mr.Wallace]

For tanks, I'd agree.

But for damage dealing builds, I'd have to disagree. Pure int mage and pure dex bird are among the most popular builds in the game for a reason. Mage especially, because so much of a mage's damage comes from their skills and not their main weapons. As pure int, you're sacrificing survivability (dodge, hp, health regen), hit %, crit %, and main weapons damage for higher skill base damage (pally and dex mage are both viable builds). For bird, apart from warbird which is good for pvp, for pve, there's no real reason not to go pure dex (also an effective build for pvp). If I had to choose between maximizing skill and weapons damage though for bird, I'd choose maximizing skill damage. Fortunately, dex does both.

Out of curiosity, who is your mage?

I was only talking about bears. With mages and birds I think it's not much of a question - pures are the most valuable for the party.

My mage is Mrswallace, leveled to 56 as full int. Since I only do fun runs now, mostly in low levels, I respecced to dual dex to see every hit number in orange :)
But when things are getting serious again, full int it is...

[Tamino]

It's impressive that Tamio's second setup yields good skill damage+critical given the equips are 'cheap'.

It is a common problem of all top level Sewer sets - they always miss one or more relevant stat. Level 50 premium sets (or the Shadow ones) are somehow balanced, and if they lack something it is compensated by set bonus. Take Rift example: Rift items give Hit, Crit, H/s, M/s Dmg and Armor, but no Dodge; Rift Scimitar/Shield set adds 5% Dodge.

Premium BS pink sets are always unbalanced in their stats, even the crafted ones. So MM/Enchanted lack Hit, Crit and Dodge, FF/Fortified Hit and Crit (Fortified add damage but loose dodge), RR/Customized lack Dodge and M/s.

DEX sets are best, because its deficiencies can be supplied by a lot of health/mana pots, but no pot can add dmg, hit and crit to FF or Customized. The only way to manage these limits is to mix different gears trying to balance stats and to fit your playstyle. Looking at Ellydol Lev 55 gears guide, you can see he follows the same principle: high end DEX gears are the RR/Customized sets, high end STR gears are a mix of Pink, Green and Yellows.

[NECROREAPER]

Wow this thread has gotten a lot more technical than I thought it would

[Ellyidol]

Hey guys! Been following the thread, only now do I have time to reply in mobile mode though. Will try my best to follow the trend of the thread, dex and Hit then skill damage.

IMO, there are 2 reasons why a bear gets dex. One is to dual spec, if youre interested, and for Hit %. I disregard skill damage because the difference of each point in str/dex is minimal in skill damage. Like Wallace said, majority of the skill damage comes from gear.

Dex for Hit %. This is the main reason why you would get dex. If your Hit % is enough to suit you, by all means go pure str. A good Hit % > any amount of damage anyway.

I also remember that Phys had a guide about Hit % being capped at 85 (ish), I think it's 85 for normal attacks, but not skills. I could swear that my Beckon hits more with 90+ Hit % versus 80+.

Skill damage. Reason why some cheaper gear is more effective is because, not sure if it's known, just putting it out there, the damage gain from gear attributes directly to skill damage.

A Bellow piece (green, str) gives 12 damage. That 12 damage is added to your base damage and directly to skill damage. Stomp before would be 90-100, stomp after would be 102-112.

[JaytB]

I also remember that Phys had a guide about Hit % being capped at 85 (ish), I think it's 85 for normal attacks, but not skills. I could swear that my Beckon hits more with 90+ Hit % versus 80+.

Somebody tested this not long ago. The conclusion was indeed that the 85% cap was only for auto-attack. Skills hit% didn't seem to be capped at all.

[WhoIsThis]

It is a common problem of all top level Sewer sets - they always miss one or more relevant stat. Level 50 premium sets (or the Shadow ones) are somehow balanced, and if they lack something it is compensated by set bonus. Take Rift example: Rift items give Hit, Crit, H/s, M/s Dmg and Armor, but no Dodge; Rift Scimitar/Shield set adds 5% Dodge.

Premium BS pink sets are always unbalanced in their stats, even the crafted ones. So MM/Enchanted lack Hit, Crit and Dodge, FF/Fortified Hit and Crit (Fortified add damage but loose dodge), RR/Customized lack Dodge and M/s.

DEX sets are best, because its deficiencies can be supplied by a lot of health/mana pots, but no pot can add dmg, hit and crit to FF or Customized. The only way to manage these limits is to mix different gears trying to balance stats and to fit your playstyle. Looking at Ellydol Lev 55 gears guide, you can see he follows the same principle: high end DEX gears are the RR/Customized sets, high end STR gears are a mix of Pink, Green and Yellows.

The problem is that the shadow sets are not truly outstanding in any way either. It's like do you want everything distributed across a lot of stats, or some really potent stats. That said, I wish there were level 55 versions of the shadow sets that were a bit more potent.

Compare:
Mega Mage Gemstone Wand Set:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-z6hl-Von8Rg/ThRX8RWhR8I/AAAAAAAAAUI/sifzY250kc8/Mega%252520Mage%252520Set%25252056.png

Shadow Glow Stick Set:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-JCsJUgxEC6E/ThRX8oHCsYI/AAAAAAAAAUM/SwszlIWpTcA/Shadow%252520Set%25252056.png

[kinawarrior]

The problem is that the shadow sets are not truly outstanding in any way either. It's like do you want everything distributed across a lot of stats, or some really potent stats. That said, I wish there were level 55 versions of the shadow sets that were a bit more potent.

Compare:
Mega Mage Gemstone Wand Set:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-z6hl-Von8Rg/ThRX8RWhR8I/AAAAAAAAAUI/sifzY250kc8/Mega%252520Mage%252520Set%25252056.png

Shadow Glow Stick Set:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-JCsJUgxEC6E/ThRX8oHCsYI/AAAAAAAAAUM/SwszlIWpTcA/Shadow%252520Set%25252056.png

+1 on the sets

When I saw the fortitude set, I was like, "this is the end game gear everyone is trying to achieve?" Sure, it's great on armor, dmg, and h/s, but is awful at everything else.

It would be nice to be able to make different sets, like the fortitude set for pure tanking, a set for an all around balance, a set for pure damage, etc. I think they sort of have this now in the sewers with the different colors (orage and green), but it'd be nice if they were all pink quality. Would make for a good market also :)

Actually, just like the lvl 45 gear with isis, thoth, horus, and osaris. Then, the 50 gear for the mix of everything (probably the most sought after).

[WhoIsThis]

The green glowing sets are not the end all be all.

For example Enchanted:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Fbp9x7MXKIE/TccIHZiy-zI/AAAAAAAAAQY/SZ6Am4M6VLw/Enchanted%252520Build%25252056.png

Benefits? Highest skill damage of any set in PL. It also has health regen and for a staff set, arguably the best survivability (debatable compared to scrapers though with 21% dodge). Biggest flaw? Very low mana regen (by mage standards anyways). Not a big deal in PvE where pots are available. In PvP; use Mega Mage except maybe against birds.

Fortified? Biggest flaw? Basically no dodge.

Custom is arguably the best of the green sets; no real flaws. Bird sets have never offered really high mana regen (sewer king) or protection (drainers). It has slightly less skill damage than RR, but slightly better crit which makes up for it. But sewer king and drainers both have their respective weaknesses and overall, custom is best set for a bird in both PvE and PvP for like 90%+ of situations. The same cannot be said for enchanted or fortified.

[Tamino]

The problem is that the shadow sets are not truly outstanding in any way either. It's like do you want everything distributed across a lot of stats, or some really potent stats. That said, I wish there were level 55 versions of the shadow sets that were a bit more potent.

I agree with you. IMHO the sewer pink gears stats leave space for new weapons, what I expect is that one of the two upcoming areas is a 55-60 elite map, which drops better gears for 55 players (like AO3/SC for lev 50).