View Full Version : [Post Buff Review]: Dagger vs. Bow
Hello,
I just thought I would deliver some information after buff of the daggers! While proc'ing, I noticed a little bit more often, but still not enough. However, I only got a short amount of time to test the daggers. So, I will make a more educated decision on this further down the line as I've had the chance to play with the daggers more.
After buff, the daggers are now 20-30 skill damage less than bow and 2 stat damage less than bow. To me, this is okay. Why? You gain 550 HP, additional mana, more crit, and a 35% armor reduction proc as a trade-off. Thus, it is a nice balance between bow and dagger. If you're more into pure damage, pick bow. If you feel you need more survivability, pick daggers. Personally, I prefer the daggers.
In PvE, I would recommend at least 1 dagger rogue and 1 bow rogue. The weapons, it seems, are designed to play along side each other and benefit each other.
Well done, STG! Not bad! It may just need an additional tweak in the proc rate, but STG did pretty darn well on buffing these daggers without entirely making the bow useless.
blazerdd
02-11-2016, 01:44 PM
I have also come to this conclusion. Glad to hear someone else agrees with me!
oekeone
02-11-2016, 01:49 PM
Hello,
I just thought I would deliver some information after buff of the daggers! While proc'ing, I noticed a little bit more often, but still not enough. However, I only got a short amount of time to test the daggers. So, I will make a more educated decision on this further down the line as I've had the chance to play with the daggers more.
After buff, the daggers are now 20-30 skill damage less than bow and 2 stat damage less than bow. To me, this is okay. Why? You gain 550 HP, additional mana, more crit, and a 35% armor reduction proc as a trade-off. Thus, it is a nice balance between bow and dagger. If you're more into pure damage, pick bow. If you feel you need more survivability, pick daggers. Personally, I prefer the daggers.
In PvE, I would recommend at least 1 dagger rogue and 1 bow rogue. The weapons, it seems, are designed to play along side each other and benefit each other.
Well done, STG! Not bad! It may just need an additional tweak in the proc rate, but STG did pretty darn well on buffing these daggers without entirely making the bow useless.
Well done zeus ima buy the daggers this thread convinced me +1
Mage staff loss 200 skill damage and crit. Only gain less 200hp.
Why you think opinion? Should also buff staff or no? I still learning
Mage staff loses about 90-100 skill damage when compared to gun of equal gems. I would ask for a slight buff to staff as well to bring it to the level of daggers where it's 20-30 skill damage less than the gun counterpart.
Kingofninjas
02-12-2016, 02:51 AM
Mage staff loses about 90-100 skill damage when compared to gun of equal gems. I would ask for a slight buff to staff as well to bring it to the level of daggers where it's 20-30 skill damage less than the gun counterpart.
Was str added to the arcane daggers as part of buff? Because I noticed sword and daggers both have 1 additional stat bonus over staff. Staff gives int, str, crit and hp. Sword gives the same as staff, along which some mana, which helps set tanks. Daggers now seems to give Int, str, dex, crit, and hp.
That combined with the staff's low stat damage and unnaturally long charge time makes it quit a handful to use in PvP. It really needs some sort of buff to bring it to the same level as daggers and sword.
Amokaachi
02-12-2016, 07:49 AM
Daggers add 350 hp over Bow. Tried them today at pvp. They still proc very very rare. They only procced twice in 2 hours
Daggers add 350 hp over Bow. Tried them today at pvp. They still proc very very rare. They only procced twice in 2 hours
Yes, I noticed the same thing as well. The proc is still quite row and not worth it.
mesalin
02-12-2016, 11:08 AM
I feel like that Proc come more often in pve when I'm in group of mobs and charge attack. (4-5 or more mobs) than simple mob or vs
<Forgiveness>
Mage staff loses about 90-100 skill damage when compared to gun of equal gems. I would ask for a slight buff to staff as well to bring it to the level of daggers where it's 20-30 skill damage less than the gun counterpart.
I feel like the staff is strong in it's procs, at least in PvE. For example the charged attack is buffing me / I would assume team about 30 damage, and 4-5 crit. Also the non-charged proc can melt bosses since it does damage by %.
Only thing I wonder is if the DoT (% damage tics) stacks if multiple arcane staffs
I feel like that Proc come more often in pve when I'm in group of mobs and charge attack. (4-5 or more mobs) than simple mob or vs
<Forgiveness>
Yes, I notice this as well. The proc rate is decent in PvE but in PvP it seems as low and infrequent as it normally is. I hope developers can take a look into this and adjust accordingly. Thank you!
Tatman
02-12-2016, 11:32 AM
I'd rather they kept the damage, but actually worked on the proc. Go test this thing in Rengol, it practically doesn't proc. I did two whole Elite Grotto runs (killed pretty much everything except the giants and the mobs around them), I saw the "dragon bite" text exactly 4 times total.
To me it looks like daggers proc quite often in certain maps, while in others they just don't. It was like this before the buff and I see no change now. I'm not sure if anything was actually done.
Titanium
02-12-2016, 11:49 AM
At least they kept the arcane rarity for the proc rate. RIP drop rate !
Jazzi
02-12-2016, 01:21 PM
I'd rather they kept the damage, but actually worked on the proc. Go test this thing in Rengol, it practically doesn't proc. I did two whole Elite Grotto runs (killed pretty much everything except the giants and the mobs around them), I saw the "dragon bite" text exactly 4 times total.
To me it looks like daggers proc quite often in certain maps, while in others they just don't. It was like this before the buff and I see no change now. I'm not sure if anything was actually done.
The "dragon's bite" is a secondary proc which does additional damage and has a 25% chance to proc on a mob, which is already affected by the primary proc (electrocute + stun + 35% armour reduction). The primary proc sadly has no distinctive visual, other than stun stars above the mobs' heads. Last but not least about half of the mobs in Rengol are immune to stun. Whether this means that the daggers practically can't proc on them is something sts needs to clarify :D
P.S. and yes the proc is still very rare. Can't really say if a change did take place or not
Kakashis
02-12-2016, 02:29 PM
Some mobs are immune! Still rare. What gives
Tatman
02-12-2016, 06:10 PM
The "dragon's bite" is a secondary proc which does additional damage and has a 25% chance to proc on a mob, which is already affected by the primary proc (electrocute + stun + 35% armour reduction). The primary proc sadly has no distinctive visual, other than stun stars above the mobs' heads. Last but not least about half of the mobs in Rengol are immune to stun. Whether this means that the daggers practically can't proc on them is something sts needs to clarify :D
P.S. and yes the proc is still very rare. Can't really say if a change did take place or not
This may be so, but go test in, say, Shuyal and then in Rengol, and count how many times you see "dragon bite".
Carapace
02-12-2016, 06:34 PM
This may be so, but go test in, say, Shuyal and then in Rengol, and count how many times you see "dragon bite".
Just to chime in here, this would fit within the group sizes you can pull in these respective areas. In Shuyal you can grab a very large group of 10+ mobs, each attack hitting 4+, thus creating a high chance to proc. Ren'gol pulls are significantly smaller by comparison, and as pointed out some mobs are immune to stun. The comparison here is a little apples to oranges in that if the original test for the daggers was done in Shuyal, then the post buff test should also be compared in Shuyal for consistent results with a control case. Otherwise it's sort of like saying I find apple seeds when I eat apples, but I don't get nearly as many when I eat oranges and apples. To make a weak analogy. :)
Titanium
02-12-2016, 06:46 PM
Just to chime in here, this would fit within the group sizes you can pull in these respective areas. In Shuyal you can grab a very large group of 10+ mobs, each attack hitting 4+, thus creating a high chance to proc. Ren'gol pulls are significantly smaller by comparison, and as pointed out some mobs are immune to stun. The comparison here is a little apples to oranges in that if the original test for the daggers was done in Shuyal, then the post buff test should also be compared in Shuyal for consistent results with a control case. Otherwise it's sort of like saying I find apple seeds when I eat apples, but I don't get nearly as many when I eat oranges and apples. To make a weak analogy. :)
Arcane sword's procs are too frequent and it's ruining the pvp clashing. The proc rate of sword is 80%. It's not possible to endure such bullying from a weapon. Look into this... i really hope it wasn't intended.
Jazzi
02-12-2016, 06:58 PM
Just to chime in here, this would fit within the group sizes you can pull in these respective areas. In Shuyal you can grab a very large group of 10+ mobs, each attack hitting 4+, thus creating a high chance to proc. Ren'gol pulls are significantly smaller by comparison, and as pointed out some mobs are immune to stun. The comparison here is a little apples to oranges in that if the original test for the daggers was done in Shuyal, then the post buff test should also be compared in Shuyal for consistent results with a control case. Otherwise it's sort of like saying I find apple seeds when I eat apples, but I don't get nearly as many when I eat oranges and apples. To make a weak analogy. :)
So the proc can't be triggered on stun immune mobs?
Either way if future content is aiming at low mob density (as you kindly stated at the beginning of the season) the an adequate procrate should be based on this and not on what the mob density is in 2-3 years old content. Where did you test the proc yourselves if I may ask?
Tatman
02-12-2016, 07:34 PM
Just to chime in here, this would fit within the group sizes you can pull in these respective areas. In Shuyal you can grab a very large group of 10+ mobs, each attack hitting 4+, thus creating a high chance to proc. Ren'gol pulls are significantly smaller by comparison, and as pointed out some mobs are immune to stun. The comparison here is a little apples to oranges in that if the original test for the daggers was done in Shuyal, then the post buff test should also be compared in Shuyal for consistent results with a control case. Otherwise it's sort of like saying I find apple seeds when I eat apples, but I don't get nearly as many when I eat oranges and apples. To make a weak analogy. :)
You can pull 10 mobs in Rengol, it still won't proc as often as in Shuyal (which was just an example, you can compare with Tindirin if you wish). Go map 3 - you can pull all three groups at the start of the map, that's more than 10 mobs. That's first.
Second, you are basically telling us daggers won't proc on stun immune mobs? Why? Are these mobs also immune to armor reduction, which is, in my opinion, the best part of the proc, at least pve-wise?
debitmandiri
02-12-2016, 07:42 PM
4 daggers rog @ elite is op just saying again :wink:
kinzmet
02-12-2016, 07:46 PM
Just to chime in here, this would fit within the group sizes you can pull in these respective areas. In Shuyal you can grab a very large group of 10+ mobs, each attack hitting 4+, thus creating a high chance to proc. Ren'gol pulls are significantly smaller by comparison, and as pointed out some mobs are immune to stun. The comparison here is a little apples to oranges in that if the original test for the daggers was done in Shuyal, then the post buff test should also be compared in Shuyal for consistent results with a control case. Otherwise it's sort of like saying I find apple seeds when I eat apples, but I don't get nearly as many when I eat oranges and apples. To make a weak analogy. :)
Eh? How about the Arcane sword proc? It procs around 8-9 times out of 10. It also penetrates stun immunity buffs and shield.
eugene9707
02-12-2016, 07:48 PM
Daggers add 350 hp over Bow. Tried them today at pvp. They still proc very very rare. They only procced twice in 2 hours
Hmm ....weird .... my friend did a test with me and he proc'ed twice within less than 30 hits (this was in duel and me standing still) but still ......
Tatman
02-12-2016, 07:57 PM
4 daggers rog @ elite is op just saying again :wink:
Yes, it's op in certain maps. It was the same pre-buff, nothing really changed.
I actually went and tested solo Arena just now. Blades will proc more often on a single boss than on a pull of 5-6 Rengol mobs. Just saying.
Im looking forward to the expansion, hopefully everything will be a whole new slate and we can start off really balanced with all new gear.
mesalin
02-12-2016, 08:54 PM
Just ran all 3 planar. With 2 daggers in party, it proc like crazy there. I wish it proc same in rengol
<Forgiveness>
Just to chime in here, this would fit within the group sizes you can pull in these respective areas. In Shuyal you can grab a very large group of 10+ mobs, each attack hitting 4+, thus creating a high chance to proc. Ren'gol pulls are significantly smaller by comparison, and as pointed out some mobs are immune to stun. The comparison here is a little apples to oranges in that if the original test for the daggers was done in Shuyal, then the post buff test should also be compared in Shuyal for consistent results with a control case. Otherwise it's sort of like saying I find apple seeds when I eat apples, but I don't get nearly as many when I eat oranges and apples. To make a weak analogy. :)
Hey Carapace,
Does this mean that if you cannot stun a mob, the armor reduction will not apply? If this is the case, then I think this should be fixed a little as essentially, mobs and players will have proc immunity intervals when they cannot be stunned. Just a suggestion! Please let me know if it can be done assuming that daggers armor reduction works in the way that I am assuming.
xZauiflele
02-13-2016, 02:37 AM
Why rogues always crying lol may be you will still cry if draggers will grant you 300more than bow. The proc rate of bow and draggers are more often same. Indeed maul proc was doing nothing as advantage. And don't forget rogues die in pvp by single hits and rogues use more skills than auto hit. We warriors never proc with skills we keep hitting auto hit. Rogues keep hitting aim
Here is your answer, proc rates not mean to be less than wars, u use them wrongly.
Kingofninjas
02-13-2016, 04:04 AM
Tested the fervor bow and the arcane daggers in arena with similar gems, on extended solo runs, my personal conclusion is: they are more or less the same and bow even did better time on some occasions.
Not surprising, seeing as daggers would be more effective on mobs, whereas Bow would be better for bosses. Arena is only bosses, and hence Bow comes out on top.
Oezheasate
02-13-2016, 04:24 AM
Arcane sword's procs are too frequent and it's ruining the pvp clashing. The proc rate of sword is 80%. It's not possible to endure such bullying from a weapon. Look into this... i really hope it wasn't intended.
Thats a big lie, proc rate 80%? Zzz no it isnt, i can go 30 seconds spamming auto attack without it proccing, that happens quite often actually, you just say this because you participate in three tank clashes, three tanks means one of them will proc sooner than later.
Oezheasate
02-13-2016, 04:30 AM
Eh? How about the Arcane sword proc? It procs around 8-9 times out of 10. It also penetrates stun immunity buffs and shield.
Lies lies lies, please play and test it yourself before you go around spreading false information, ive tested the sword extensively in both pve (timed runs too) and pvp, 1/10 is accurate referring to proc rate, the proc rate is fine as it is.
Again uninformed comments, havent you been reading the forum at all lately?
It got fixed it doesnt stun through stun immunity anymore.
Thexkid
02-13-2016, 09:50 AM
So stun immunity is proc immunity :/ i think it should still proc without needing to stun to apply the debuff and aoe also leading to more dragon bites(secondary proc) this is the whole proc issue, im sure.. go to any map without stun immunites.. pvp and garetta maps is where these lack.. thats high stun immunity areas this whole proc shouldnt rely on stun :/ cmon warriors procs on taking damage even, and that plays to there strength these only proc with auto not with using skills or other ways so they need this proc to happen when u do get close and hit. In pvp when u are close always a nekro/ jugg/ razor/ sheild or something on the enemy blocking stuns. Gg daggs.
The definition of stun immunity in PVE is very confused. I thought it only works for skill. Because I know pets and weapons that break immunity. The new mythic dagger can cause stunning in a boss for example. While the legendary dagger Dragonbone Dagger of Tactics does not break the immunity of the boss.
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