Who exactly "frowns upon" power leveling?

[Aikiebo]

In a thread today, someone was asking about being power leveled. Someone responded by saying that power leveling was frowned upon and that he wouldn't power level for money.

I'd like to ask about this. I don't want people to hate me. But, I think members should be able to ask questions or express their opinions without worrying about being attacked on some forum.

My question: Who exactly "frowns upon" power leveling? Is it the devs? Or, is it individual players who share a personal opinion? If it is the devs, where can we read about this subject directly from them - some official source? If power leveling violates the TOS, then I apologize for bringing this up and will end my questions.

IMO, as long as there is no TOS violation and especially when done correctly, power leveling is fine and can be a lot of fun.

I wouldn't power level for gold. You can make way more from farming. But for rl, ig, fellow guildies or simply to pay it forward by spending a little time being nice, I'd consider power leveling someone. But, if someone wanted to power level for gold there's nothing wrong with that (I can understand their point of view).

Power leveling doesn't hurt the game anymore than anything else. There's a lot of hysteria over the subject, but ANYTHING when done in stupid ways for stupid reasons is, well.... stupid. But, like just about anything else, power leveling has its place in the game and can be a lot of fun and actually help both individual players and the game as a whole. Don't get me wrong, I don't think power leveling has a major place in the game. It's just something that can be fun.

Anyway, to get back to my original question, who exactly "frowns upon" power leveling? If it is officially the devs, if so, where can I read what they have said? If it is more along the lines the personal opinions of individual players, are all members of the forums allowed to ask questions and state their opinions?

[lUp3]

Normally players who powerlvl.. - that is ask for help from a higher leveld char never learn to play their chars properly. If you have leveld one char properly then by all means powerlvl. But without going through the hard way people never learn to play their chars and noob it up in sewers. Thats the main reason powerlvlin is looked down upon by the players. Devs would be more than happy if you use plat elixirs while powerlvlin :P

[CanonicalKoi]

Same as lUp3's opinion. People need to learn the basics before they move on. All power-leveling does is advance them quickly in level while keeping them ignorant of the knowledge and skills they'll need later both to survive and to be an asset to whatever group they're in. Or, to put it another way, when I join a group of people, I'm hoping it's 5 of us against the world and not 4.1 or 4.0, kwim?

[Conradin]

Thus we encounter a problem that has mostly been fixed in recent updates- though, the hordes of MYNAS GENS still remain strong.

[Ayrilana]

Kind of kicking a dead horse but here goes a quick summary of why.

Power-leveling is bad because those getting power-leveled will not know how to play their jobs. You'll see mages who don't heal, bears who don't beckon but rather stomp, and such. We used to power-level people no problems before BS came out and it backfired on us. We were getting into games with capped people who just didn't know basic game mechanics. One thing that stood out back then were the people thinking the green orbs in Gurg's room stacked. They'd circle the room and take all of the orbs. These players are also dead weight since they consistently die during runs dragging down the team. They've also taken to begging nonstop which is very annoying.

If you want to know more then do a search on these forums. There are a ton of threads on this subject.

[noobmigo]

Honestly, I hated the nerf. I absolutely LOVED going to Plasma Pyramid with my twenty twink along with others (Someblackman, ahhitsmagic, teddybear, bearpire, mridgaf, tweenktastic, zeriousbear, pwnme) When I was losing PL interest, I hit my friends list, made a CTK/PP/VL game and spam invited all the twinks I knew under 30.

After the nerf, I quit for a while, came back, only because I had this great service I could offer, maybe (Migo's Market) but slowly losing interest again. Only hanging on now because Z has come back, as has FlyingHawaiian, and also because there are no MMO's I want to play that I haven't beat, besides O&C.

So yeah, I see why they did that, but puh-lease, why can't you bring it back to some extent? Maybe have a qualification period? You have had to play for at least 3 months to go to other dungeons besides the ones your level.

I understand they did that to wipe the Mynas Gen, but I'm crying for lost time. :(

[Register]

I frown upon powerleveling so much because most people dont know their class. We end up with tanks who hang out in the back, avians die cuz they cant combo, and mages dont know heal or res. If more powerlevelers know the class and even the game, i would be fine with it. Also, low kill count just looks terrible on a character page. I solo as much as I can and i love people randomely messaging me that i have a nice kdr. Also, more people arent paying attention to their hp....Thats y they have such a high death count....:/

[skavenger216]

Why do I frown upon powerleveling? Because it creates high level bears that dont know what taunt is for, mages that don't know what buffing/debuffing does, and birds that don't know proper times to thorn wall. Just some examples.

It is not hard, or time consuming to level normally in this game. I hit 56 on my first toon within 2 weeks of downloading PL, without any powerleveling. There's my two cents, lol.

[Orcish]

If you know the game/class very well then, power leveling isn't an issue. Most people have a problem with miracle grow characters that don't know how to play the game (bosses, combos, terminology, etc..) . It reminds me of the camper argument used in first person shooters, both sides have valid points, in end it's up to the individual how they want to play the game, who cares what anyone else thinks. Also those that have climbed to the top already, tend to look down on anyone that hasn't had to struggle as much as they did. Anyways play the game and have fun :)

[Lesrider]

I don't think ppl have problems with powerleveling their friends. But asking on the forum for someone to powerlevel you seems rude, IMO. It's a big favor to ask of people if they're not your friends -- so just keep it private in game if you must do it.

And some games make it impossible to powerlevel (no xp for anyone if someone in the team can't get any xp). STS has taken steps to keep low lvls out of high lvl dungeons, but high lvls can still plevel lowbies in the lvl-appropriate dungeons.

[ZeraJade]

I don't care.

I'm not going to power level anyone. If I don't talk to you, you aren't on my friends lists so I'm not being spam invited to be led to my death. If I'm in a party and someone doesn't know their role, I leave. How do I know if they have been power leveled or not? I don't know nor do I care.

We all know there are plenty of players who got xp on their own and can't play as I am sure there are some that got power leveled and do a good job.

*shrug*

[Physiologic]

My question: Who exactly "frowns upon" power leveling? Is it the devs? Or, is it individual players who share a personal opinion? If it is the devs, where can we read about this subject directly from them - some official source? If power leveling violates the TOS, then I apologize for bringing this up and will end my questions.

Power-leveling isn't against ToS by any means, but the devs have recently put level restrictions on campaign maps for obvious reasons. XP-rich maps such as Crush the Keeper (Alien Oasis 3 campaign) used to be a hotspot for low leveled players to get power-leveled, but that is no longer an option, leaving power-leveling to be quite tougher to accomplish.

[Pharcyde]

This thread has been pretty much covered, other then one point. Powerleveling also allowed players to reach end game incredibly fast. Which isn't a good thing for the devs. The longer it takes a player to reach end level, the more likely they are to spend money along the way. So for obvious business reasons, power leveling has been made harder.

[Fyrce]

Powerleveling isn't bad per se. However, PL levels are so easy to do that I cannot help but look down on anyone needing help leveling. The only level at the moment that is extraordinary is the "extra" level (Right now, that's L56).

For myself, I don't care if you powerleveled or not as long as you can play. If you join my groups and try to friend me, I'll wait until I see you play some before I accept. If you cannot play, you will get booted or I will reject your friend request and my games will be full before you can join them.

For the player who does not know the game but somehow got to a high level, personally I believe they have handicapped themselves. Being a bad player, they will not have that many friends; they will die a lot, thus making the game frustrating for them; they will have a hard time advancing in getting xp for themselves or equips when they die so much, have little knowledge of the game and have a dirth of friends. Players should try to learn the game and not handicap themselves.

Anyways, I'm sure I've posted these reasons in tons of threads already.

[JaytB]

I agree with all the responses posted here. I wish I could add something, but by now it should be clear why it's frowned upon by many serious players in this community.

[Zaltiar]

cause then there will be more scatter bears around

[Aikiebo]

One of the things that I am wondering is what have the devs said about power leveling and where can I read this. I have tried to find something and have not been able too. I realize that perhaps it is there, but I just couldn't find it. I'm really interested. I don't think the devs are against it unless it is abused. I can't find any info that they are against it.

If someone, especially at a high level, doesn't seem to know how to play their class, it doesn't make sense to jump to the conclusion that's because they were power leveled. In fact, it is highly unlikely to be the reason. The percentage of people to be power leveled for 50 LEVELS is microscopic. Who would power level someone for 50 levels? How could you earn enough gold to pay someone for that? Most power leveling is a lot more casual than that. Just like the player in the thread I read this morning, he wanted to be power leveled for three levels. Nothing more significant then that. Most power leveling is done in short bursts like that. Usually shorter actually. Sure, if someone just chases some high level for 50 levels (how long would that take?), then goes to the sewers and expects to know what to do, then yeah, that's kinda retarded. But that rarely, ever happens.

(Of course, I'm not talking about botting. Any kind of botting for any reason accomplished in any way sould be not tolerated-no exceptions.)

For example, if some is level 52, and they have been power leveled 3 different times for 1 - 4 levels each time, maybe 8 levels. They have had plenty of chance to learn how to heal or whatever. If someome is that bad, don't jump to the conclusion that it's power leveling is the problem. It's probably not. There are many reasons why that may be other than power leveling. For instance, apparently, there's a whole trend where some casters won't heal. They consider themselves to be offensive mages so some don't even have one point in heal. When I read this I had a hard time stopping laughing. Then kind of a stunned shock took over. To this day, I find this hard to believe. (In the real world that's called social loafing, lol.) But, just like power leveling, if it's not agsinst the TOS and not really hurting anyone, I believe people should play their game the way they want to.

As far as the devs being against it for their own financial gain - that is if people level fast then the devs lose money. I'm not sure that we can conclude that. People who are into power leveling have their reasons. Don't matter if anyone else understands those reasons, agrees with them or are even aware of what the reasons are. They have their reasons. Without even trying I can think of a dozen valid reasons someone might want a little power leveling. If all these folks lose interest in the game, then the devs lose tons of money.

Besides, the folks calling the shots on this game really don't seem like the micromanaging type. They seem to me to be, and I'm no fanboy-I'm being sincere, level-headed and fair and trying to make the game fun for all their customers. That seems to me to be quite a balancing act.

[Pharcyde]

cause then there will be more scatter bears around

In case any of you don't know the definition - a bear who doesn't know how to play, AT ALL. A bear that just uses stomp nonstop, and generally blasts the boss out of the room and causes it to heal :rolleyes:

[Arterra]

Since I have no written evidence I wont throw it at you. Instead, lets look at the dev's actions.

1) mynas tombs.
Maybe at first the devs didn't recognize powerleveling. But they sure did at one point. Bam,Fromm all mummies to lotsof djin thrown in.
2) ao2 lv2 (idk name lol)
This was the next hotspots. Again, djin added to make it less temptingto lower levels, along with normal mobs.
3)minimum level entry
So as to not just hyperbuff any easy level, the devs simply restricted lower levels from leveling on higher level easy areas. That pretty much ended the standard 1-50 powerleveling, like said.***
4) shadow mummies XP farming
Wthin a small time span the devs neutralized this easy method to spam XP and get to 53 easily.

I think they support natural leveling.


***= in fact the devs haduntil then been pretty adamant about level restriction, as their position was that you should be able to enjoy any content you spent money on. Now that free, doesn't apply as much I guess.

[joopiduh]

There's nothing in the TOS against power-levelling. You play the game how ever you want to play it, as long as it is within the bounds of the TOS.

However, you also have to remember that this is a social game, you are not playing with a programme against a programme. And because it is a social game, there are some things that are expected of you when you enter a room. A mage has skills others do not have. Same as a bird and as a bear, regardless of how you spec. An offensive mage is still a mage, and if they do not utilise the skill they have, e.g. heal and revive, then they are not capitalising on their strengths. Which could mean that they don't know how to play their toons properly in a group. If you have a skill that can save yourself and others, offense or defense, wouldn't you use it? There are very few skills that affect the entire party, and if it is not utilised, the party loses out.

When you talk about power-levelling, you are correct in saying not everyone powerlevels all the way, but I do know of a few. They get pinks along the way and this funds their powerlevelling. But the term "powerlevelling" does not include short bursts of one or two levels. That term means "to bring one to the highest level possible in the fastest time by any means possible". They may run one or two levels with one person, but they will run another one or two with someone else, and so on. In that, they lose out on learning the mechanics of the game as old habits die hard. They would hang back and get all the xp while the higher level does all the work - an inactive player. So when they get up there in levels, they still do the same thing. And I do beg to differ. If you have played that long to get to a high level the natural way, being active, you would pick up things along the way because in order to do that, you would have had to play with many many different people.

So play the game the way you want to. Nothing is stopping you from doing that. Just remember, you do not play alone unless if you solo all the way. You can either chime in and help out how you're supposed to, get some friends along the way, or you can hang back, get the xp, lose out on the social aspect of the game :)

[rsimone]

I'm sure there were a plethora of emails to support, asking the devs to change certain maps in order to reduce power levelers, as well ;)

[Pharcyde]

Like Arterra said, they believe in playing the content as it comes. They are certainly fine with players powerleveling at the proper levels (x4 dumpster pot).

[ChrisFI]

i persinally dont care if someone is power leveles or not. But when i see that someone is paying that than i "frown".

i dont like to be power leveled or have a high level in the group...unless they my friend but high levels steal ur kills ;D.

but What i get annoyed with when i may need a little help once in a while from wether its a good party or a party with high level/s they say leave or pay. I leave ofcourse

LOL im not payin sheeeett ;D

[Aikiebo]

An offensive mage is still a mage, and if they do not utilise the skill they have, e.g. heal and revive, then they are not capitalising on their strengths. Which could mean that they don't know how to play their toons properly in a group.

When you talk about power-levelling, you are correct in saying not everyone powerlevels all the way, but I do know of a few.

But the term "powerlevelling" does not include short bursts of one or two levels. That term means "to bring one to the highest level possible in the fastest time by any means possible".

Yeah, maybe the reason a mage is not healing, is because they don't know how. But, that is only one of many reasons. Can't assume it's cause they've been power leveled. In fact that's the least likely of several possible reasons. Why would anyone just jump to that conclusion. In fact these casters I was talking about choose not to heal. They don't think it is their job. And they really think they are doing their group a favor by standing there doing nothing most of the time. They think they're uber but really just bumming a ride so to speak. My point, if someone is having a hard time you just can't assume it's because they have been power leveled. That is most likely NOT the reason. I've never seen a mage say, after someone has died, oops sorry I didn't heal ya, I was power leveled so I don't know what I'm doing.

And the definition of power leveling you gave is not accurate, it has been narrowed to try to support a position. Power leveling, obviously, can last for 5 minutes, 5 hours, 2 levels, 20 or more levels, how ever many times you want to be power leveled. What you're saying is a person is not jogging unless they jog the whole lap 50 times. That if they only jog it once or jog only 10 minutes then they are not really jogging. Power leveling is just using some means to level faster than you otherwise would. The amount of time used is not part of the definition. In this game elixirs are a form of power leveling, any of the elixirs.

It's not too likely that more than a FEW people are raising enough gold off of pinks to pay somebody to power level them 50 levels (unless close friend). Most pinks and purps are worth very lttle.

From what I read on the forum, it takes 63,000 kills to get to level 50. Maybe bit less if you in full parties a lot. It does not, does not, does not take 63,000 kills to learn how to heal, not scatter or dodge. If someone don't got this down by level 50 then there is something else going on.

I agree, if you're being power leveled more than a couple of levels, don't be a tard, take the time to learn your class (unless you already know it). But, if a high level is playing badly, then there is one or more other reasons. Power leveling is the least likely reason.

[Whirlzap]

What would happen if I told you guys that I power levelled from 1-50?

[Zaltiar]

absolutely hate it. slows down the whole team on runs. I try telling them the correct way, but they tend to go back to scattering the mobs around. probably because there's so much things going on, they panic :\

[Pharcyde]

What would happen if I told you guys that I power levelled from 1-50?

But you grinded 50-56 with nothing more than 1.5 pots.

Also, your a contributing player to the community. Your fine.

It's the thousands of other clueless powerlevelers who think to beat gurgux, you have to put a speed pot on, and run out of the room, causing the boss to heal...

[Whirlzap]

Your point is very wrong.
Power-leveling is having levels influenced by others, therefore being unique from regular leveling.
Elixirs, anyone can do, power leveling, you need to find someone.
Believe me, sometimes parties are much faster than a single power leveler.
As with your 63k kills, people use elixirs, sometimes they just don't kill much, for instance I was a support mage up until level 45 or so, and only debuffed, buffed, revived, healed and froze.
Not many kills eh? A toon can go many ways, however whether they are power levelled are not, you should at least still have respect for such a person.
What I'm thinking the gist of this is, is that no, it's not the fast levelling that we are annoyed and exile at...

Do you notice, that most people who complain about power-leveling, are high levels themselves?
To be honest, I have never seen a player under level 50 complain about someone power leveling, it is ONLY because these high levels are just angry that their hard grinds, without power leveling seem to go to waste, with these new players easily leveling up.

I think this IS the point we are getting at.

[Whirlzap]

But you grinded 50-56 with nothing more than 1.5 pots.

Also, your a contributing player to the community. Your fine.

It's the thousands of other clueless powerlevelers who think to beat gurgux, you have to put a speed pot on, and run out of the room, causing the boss to heal...
Never said I was power leveled, I tried this to see how you would react.
1.5s and pure mage for me, hardcore all the way^^

But the verdict of this little theory:
People usually WILL respect one who power levels after they prove themselves.
Sometimes a player may already be well experienced with their character, but just want a few fast levels.
I, in honest opinion am against power leveling in all ways.
I'm also against dual specs, or anything not pure to base stats.
I should start a little army of pure hardcores sometime^^

[Pharcyde]

Power-leveling is having levels influenced by others, therefore being unique from regular leveling.


Power leveling - Term used to describe the process of leveling a character as rapidly as possible with the least amount of play time. It can be used from any level up to the maximum level in the game which is currently 56.

Energizer Bunny - Term used to describe a player who has leveled rapidly, using a damage and exp boosting potion.

Leacher - Term used to describe a player who has gained all of their exp by simply doing nothing, or joining parties much higher level than him/her.

Booster - Term used to describe a player who offers his/her service to another player. This service could include item farming, gold farming, or rapid leveling. The player may sometimes charge for this service.

Best way is the fast way - Players who level using minor potions for gold.

CTK = EXP - Players who leveled 50-53 in Crush the Keeper, to avoid having to level in the sewers.

[Pharcyde]

But the verdict of this little theory:
People usually WILL respect one who power levels after they prove themselves.

Exactly, we don't dislike power levelers because they didn't grind, we dislike power levelers, because they are ignorant.

If you can prove to us that you understand the mechanics of your character, the party setup, and how to do things on your own, then were fine with you. It's the players that ask "How I rev?" in a level 55 map that the community dislikes. By that level, players are expecting you to do your job.

Lets think about this in a real life situation:
You just got a job, you ask your co workers nonstop questions, they are willing to answer, because your new. Now lets say you have worked there for eight months, and your still asking the same exact basic questions that you did when you first started, your co workers are going to hate you.

Hopefully that puts it into retrospective. We don't hate players because they took the easy way. It's their time, their game, their money, let them play it how they want. Just don't ruin the game for others, because you decided not to learn how to play properly.

[Aikiebo]

A toon can go many ways, however whether they are power levelled are not, you should at least still have respect for such a person.
What I'm thinking the gist of this is, is that no, it's not the fast levelling that we are annoyed and exile at...

Do you notice, that most people who complain about power-leveling, are high levels themselves?
To be honest, I have never seen a player under level 50 complain about someone power leveling, it is ONLY because these high levels are just angry that their hard grinds, without power leveling seem to go to waste, with these new players easily leveling up.

I think this IS the point we are getting at.

No need to split hairs over the definition of the term. I didn't mean to start that sort of discussion. I apologize. I realize that some power leveling involves someone to help, a higher level player. And maybe that's the type many object to the most. In this game we also have elixirs to help. In other games in the past, players have used some form of exploit. Some of which were extremely bizarre

Whirlzap, it is your final point that I agree with you whole-heartedly. It is hard, I know from first hand experience, to do the thousands and thousands and thousands (many other games take way more kills/xp than PL) of kills the standard way only to have others level faster. And I agree everyone should have respect for the people who do it the conventional way. Two level 55s can be standing next to each other, one did it old school and one power leveled a lot and there's no way to tell the difference. Kinda too bad really. But those that do can take great pride in their accomplisment.

I'm just suggesting that if, at high levels, someone is having a hard time with group dynamics it is not likely, it is not logical to assume, that it is because they recieved some form of power leveling.

I started trying to find out the answer to my original question, basically is power leveling against the TOS because I power leveled someone till they leveled one time. Then many, many levels latter they pm'ed me wanting more, repeatedly pushing me to say yes even though I told them I was in a great group and would help them later. I said no, they logged and sadly havn't heard from them since. I didn't know how the devs of this game felt and wanted to find out. People are constantly asking me, and cuz of that neg experience, and not being sure of the rules in this game, and cuz of the fact that they were total strangers asking me, lol, I have just not responded to these requests. In three previous games I have power leveled dozens of players. But almost always good friends who were fellow guildies who were leveling alts. This is why I get upset when people don't have respect for someone just cuz they get some power leveling - or use it as an insult if someone is having a hard time with their game. Maybe it's a good idea that no one should jump to conclusions and we should all have respect for our fellow players.

I've never been power leveled (except few times pre-level 10 when a high level joined in FH to farm Meathead, and I love using elixirs) in any game ever. But, I've always really enjoyed helping my friends. These were really fun times. And I do and always will have great respect and admiration for everyone who does it old school.

[Pharcyde]

Good point that I forgot to bring up Aikiebo. You mentioned that after you leveled them once, they started demanding more leveling. That was another big issue that everyone else forgot to bring up. Once you do it, they get addicted to it and want more, more more more morrree power leveling. Also players are usually really rude about it, get really demandy, and don't even say thankyou for all the help you gave them. That is another big reason why power leveling is frowned upon, you help them, and they insult you.

Anyways, don't worry about players demanding it. You will meet a lot of demandy players in this game, you just have to learn to say no.

[Fyrce]

Um, I've been in I don't know how many hundreds of games recently and hosted I don't how many hundreds of games recently. No one has asked for payment for grouping/xp'ing. The worst infraction I saw was someone trying to sell in one of my groups. After he slowed down the group and did not listen to chats and PMs about stopping, he got booted. That's it. I would definitely consider a player extremely rude to ask for payment. He'd get ignored so fast, he wouldn't remember my name :p

Anyways, it's a social game. If you can't contribute to the group, I think it's only fair to leave or for the group to make you leave.

[CanonicalKoi]

i dont like to be power leveled or have a high level in the group...unless they my friend but high levels steal ur kills ;D.

C'mon, man. I bit the bullet and switched to a baby bird to avoid that just for you. (Pssst! Baby bird is still gonna steal your kills. *insert evil bird laughter*) ;)

[CanonicalKoi]

Do you notice, that most people who complain about power-leveling, are high levels themselves?


Because I'm currently a high-level, that doesn't mean this is the first time I've complained about power-leveling, you know. Didn't like it when my only char was Yosinabe at level 20. Don't like it now with a lot more chars and a lot more levels under my belt. :) I'm glad that you were able to overcome the problems that can come with power-leveling and you're an asset to the community as a whole, but a lot of folks don't and aren't. And frankly it drives me nuts to have to try and educate someone in the middle of a mob-scene in the Sewers about something they should've learned when they hit, say, level 25.

Look, it was my choice to grind all my chars. My choice to grind Rauen to 56 with only the last 5-6k on XP pots. A lot of people make different choices about what's right for them and that's fine with me. I'm not angry at them not wanting to do it the hard way; I'm angry that they don't give a flying flip about how their play affects anyone else in what's supposed to be a cooperative effort. Not caring about anyone but themselves is what makes me cranky.

ETA: Mea maxima culpa for a double post. No pinks for me....I'm cursed!

[Derajdefyre]

Here is what it REALLY comes down to. No one hates, dislikes, "frowns upon" or has any other negative feeling towards power leveling. What people despise is bad players. You can reach max level in one day or one thousand, no one will care if you play well when you join their game. The thing is that bad players tend to like leveling up as fast as possible without doing any work or enjoying the learning process of leveling up traditionally. It's a stereotype, and just like all stereotypes they exist for a reason.

All you personally need to worry about is doing what you want to do. This is a game, it's supposed to be fun. Don't let other people tell you how to play a game. If they don't like you they can leave your game or boot you, if you don't like them you can do the same. If you want to power level go for it, but make sure you take some time to learn how to play well or else others won't want to play with you and you will be easily discouraged by the harder content later in the game. If that doesn't bother you and you just want to be high level to go back to forest haven and one shot zombies then that's fine too. Do what you want and boot anyone from your game who doesn't agree with you.

[WhoIsThis]

Yeah, maybe the reason a mage is not healing, is because they don't know how. But, that is only one of many reasons. Can't assume it's cause they've been power leveled. In fact that's the least likely of several possible reasons. Why would anyone just jump to that conclusion. In fact these casters I was talking about choose not to heal. They don't think it is their job. And they really think they are doing their group a favor by standing there doing nothing most of the time. They think they're uber but really just bumming a ride so to speak. My point, if someone is having a hard time you just can't assume it's because they have been power leveled. That is most likely NOT the reason. I've never seen a mage say, after someone has died, oops sorry I didn't heal ya, I was power leveled so I don't know what I'm doing.

If a mage doesn't think that healing is their job, they don't know how to play properly. End of discussion. Whether they are powerlevelled or not to me doesn't matter at that point. Immediately, my concern is for the welfare of my group. Either they need to be taught, or if they are one of those stubborn people, booted out. From where I'm standing, that's a player slot from an incompetent player who refuses to receive feedback, who can hopefully be replaced by somebody more capable. I hate to sound harsh, but when facing bosses like Gurgox or Goldfever, keeping such players around when they refuse to listen can have serious consequences.

Nobody in their right mind is ever going to say "I'm powerlevelled. Sorry, but I don't know what I'm doing." The problem is when there are players around who do not play properly at the higher levels. At the lower levels; it's fine - the difficulty is quite forgiving. In a level like the Catacombs, where there are 5-10 slime creatures blasting fireballs at the team simultaneously, that's asking for a group wipe.

It does not take 63,000 kills to reach 50. Heck, even though it takes 83,840xp to 56, you can do it in less than half that with a damage dealing class. I'm not concerned about how long it took for a player to reach a certain level, merely whether they can play properly. And seeing PUGs, often the answer is no. I'd applaud anybody who can grasp game mechanics quickly and easily (likely people with prior RPG experience), but in reality, there's usually a correlation between player skill and experience.

[Lowlyspy]

I powerlevel people on very rare occasions if im feeling bored or have nothing better to do and ill always be glad to help out my friends with leveling, one thing though is I dont charge people for leveling though. So long as they help fight and dont complain about it im always happy to help people, however I had one person who decided to sit back and sponge the xp and I warned him ahead of time that I dont allow people to do that and finally I said sorry and left. Its a thing u gotta deal with, some people just want a shortcut so they dont have to put in an effort. :\

[Redbridge]

I didn't mean to start that sort of discussion. I apologize.

I don't think you have anything to apologise for. You brought up a very valid question and have continued the conversation in a very mature and structured way. The topic is very controversial and as you have already seen there are many differing views.

As already stated above, saying 'ALL power-levelled players can't play PL' is not factual, as is 'all non-power-levelled players are great'.

My view in a nut shell is power levelling has a time and a place, but 'generally' it's rarely done effectively.

It is just basic logic that if you let any player leech XP from a game and they contribute nothing except just being there, they have a significantly lower chance of learning anything, therefore they will probably have less to contribute when playing in a team.

If you change the name of it from 'power-levelling' to 'player improvement' and ensure the player participates, is active, is willing to learn and more importantly (this is KEY) YOU have the knowledge & are attentive enough (observant and asked the right questions) to be fully aware of what they know and don't know, then you are adding some value to the players knowledge and skills. This in turn adds quality to the games they are likely to play in in the future.

In short power-levelling is often frowned upon because it 'generally' produces high level/low skilled players, which for a PvE team game isn't what some people want.

Again 'generally', people who power-level other players, blindly giving them XP, and nothing else either have no knowledge of what the effects are or have low levels of ability to teach and simply aren't able to assess another players skill and impart the right knowledge to help them progress. Obviously if your helping a player you know has skill, and has several high level alts, to power-level a twink to 30, then I'd suspect they may know what they are doing.

Think about this.

A power-levelled player will want more power-levelling when you're gone. A 'player improved' player will be armed with the right skills and knowledge to progress themselves, or at least know where to find the info when they need it. There is a big difference.

[Otukura]

But you grinded 50-56 with nothing more than 1.5 pots.

Also, your a contributing player to the community. Your fine.

It's the thousands of other clueless powerlevelers who think to beat gurgux, you have to put a speed pot on, and run out of the room, causing the boss to heal...

True.
I remember seeing whirlz for the first time at level 55, with ~6-8k kills. Hehe.

Anyway, there are players who can powerlevel, and still play effectively, but for the most part it takes time to master your class. For most players, power leveling just hurts them and the people they play with.

[Redbridge]

Here is what it REALLY comes down to. No one hates, dislikes, "frowns upon" or has any other negative feeling towards power leveling. What people despise is bad players. You can reach max level in one day or one thousand, no one will care if you play well when you join their game. The thing is that bad players tend to like leveling up as fast as possible without doing any work or enjoying the learning process of leveling up traditionally. It's a stereotype, and just like all stereotypes they exist for a reason.

All you personally need to worry about is doing what you want to do. This is a game, it's supposed to be fun. Don't let other people tell you how to play a game. If they don't like you they can leave your game or boot you, if you don't like them you can do the same. If you want to power level go for it, but make sure you take some time to learn how to play well or else others won't want to play with you and you will be easily discouraged by the harder content later in the game. If that doesn't bother you and you just want to be high level to go back to forest haven and one shot zombies then that's fine too. Do what you want and boot anyone from your game who doesn't agree with you.

I couldn't have (and didn't) put it better myself.

[noobmigo]

True.
I remember seeing whirlz for the first time at level 55, with ~6-8k kills. Hehe.

Anyway, there are players who can powerlevel, and still play effectively, but for the most part it takes time to master your class. For most players, power leveling just hurts them and the people they play with.

I will never level with you again. ;)

[Weak_Sauce]

Amen to that. Meant to quote joopiduh but I forgot sooo ....what everyone else said.

[Weak_Sauce]

When I see level 50s with 4-5k kills and 2-3k deaths I assume they were power leveled and I stay away.

[csb]

It's the elite players that bug me.

I don't really care about PL'ed players, twinks, or even players that don't know what they are doing. I would twink and level a RL friend so that we can play together. Later, I would try to explain how to play. It's not too complicated to play the mage or the bird, and no amount of playing will make it any easier to play my bear.

Inexperienced players eventually figure it out. And, it doesn't bother me if the group fails, I just try again. Players that say to the group, "you're all a bunch of idiots that don't know what your doing, go read the forums noobs!" And, then quits the group. Which is what happened in a group I hosted this week end.

If someone plays wrong, but is receptive to discussion, then you can friend that person and discuss ways of doing things better. Some people are really nice and appreciate the help. I would rather play with a bunch of noobs than a group that likes to talk about how everyone else is stupid.

[csb]

When I see level 50s with 4-5k kills and 2-3k deaths I assume they were power leveled and I stay away.

How is that even possible if you only get about 1 point xp per kill, and you need about 20k xp to get to 50? Back in the days when i could have a level 30 kill mummies in Keeper i only got 2 xp per kill. So, how do you get to 50 with 5K kills?

[JaytB]

How is that even possible if you only get about 1 point xp per kill, and you need about 20k xp to get to 50? Back in the days when i could have a level 30 kill mummies in Keeper i only got 2 xp per kill. So, how do you get to 50 with 5K kills?

If you just tag along and let the high lvl player kill everything, you still gain xp. To gain xp, you just need to be somewhere near an enemy getting killed.

[csb]

If you just tag along and let the high lvl player kill everything, you still gain xp. To gain xp, you just need to be somewhere near an enemy getting killed.

I guess i haven't payed attention to kill counts. I just assumed standing near the group gave you the kill count. If you do nothing you get xp but no kills? Then who gets the kills? Is it whoever got the final killing hit?

[LADYHADASSA]

Unless a player has a high lvl twink i will not power lvl either, in my exp. Many who are power lvld not only dont know their skills but many dont have class either... Example several players in a room where power lvld to lvl 50 i was the pally, though i remained alive and rezed them the constant rev me and comments like ur a noob because i was fighting off a mob and could not get to them to rez... This is just an example of many not so fun times in a room of power lvld players. Knowing how to use skills is important to future game play.

Now assisting players in their maps learn their skills and help them with some exp. Is not a problem in my view a coupke lvls is a far cry diffrent than flying lvl 1-50 or 1-56

[CanonicalKoi]

How is that even possible if you only get about 1 point xp per kill, and you need about 20k xp to get to 50? Back in the days when i could have a level 30 kill mummies in Keeper i only got 2 xp per kill. So, how do you get to 50 with 5K kills?

Had a 55 in Sewers yesterday who was asking how to accept quests and I had to break it to him that being on a quest didn't improve your chances of getting a pink. Bear with just over 3K kills and just shy of 3K deaths (in comparison, my baby 24 bear has over 2K kills and 1 death). And no, CSB, I'm about as far from being 'leet as you can imagine. :) And yes, I answered his questions, set him straight on pinks being random and offered to go to town with him and walk him over to the quest-givers. I may not like power-leveling folks that don't know how to play, but that doesn't mean I have to be rude to people and if I can help them, maybe they'll get better.

Derajdefyre said it best, really.

[WhoIsThis]

It's the elite players that bug me.

I don't really care about PL'ed players, twinks, or even players that don't know what they are doing. I would twink and level a RL friend so that we can play together. Later, I would try to explain how to play. It's not too complicated to play the mage or the bird, and no amount of playing will make it any easier to play my bear.

Inexperienced players eventually figure it out. And, it doesn't bother me if the group fails, I just try again. Players that say to the group, "you're all a bunch of idiots that don't know what your doing, go read the forums noobs!" And, then quits the group. Which is what happened in a group I hosted this week end.

If someone plays wrong, but is receptive to discussion, then you can friend that person and discuss ways of doing things better. Some people are really nice and appreciate the help. I would rather play with a bunch of noobs than a group that likes to talk about how everyone else is stupid.

Unfortunately, the less skilled the player, from my experiences, the more likely they are to be unreceptive of any feedback.

On the contrary, unskilled players are usually the ones calling the experienced ones "noobs" and not the other way around, blaming others for their mistakes. Not all groups will "get" it; some people are just too stubborn.

I have great respect for any player that is committed to self-improvement and is willing to listen to feedback. I know that they aspire to be better than what they are. The problem here is that there are a significant amount of players who do not aspire, who do not take responsibility, and who can in many cases, destroy an otherwise good group. Power levelling has probably played a role, which is why it is under attack once again.

I am proud to say that at least in the Bandit Boy Hideout, I have never booted a player for being "too low", although I will ask players under 50 to leave in the Roach Motel and Catacombs (it's unlikely that players with anything less than void/cosmos/rift or their shadow counterparts sentinel/hate/shadow will be effective, unless they are so far in the rear that they will be unable to contribute).

[Weak_Sauce]

I'm happy to help people who are polite but when you come at me with an attitude you're going get what you're giving right back. The problem players were talking about aren't willing to listen and grow, they assume they know all there is to know and tell you to buggar off. There is always something new to learn.:)

Edit: whoisthis said it better than I ever could

[Kingofhurtz]

It's the elite players that bug me.

Thats quite a generalization...

[Xymorg]

Here is what it REALLY comes down to. No one hates, dislikes, "frowns upon" or has any other negative feeling towards power leveling. What people despise is bad players. You can reach max level in one day or one thousand, no one will care if you play well when you join their game. The thing is that bad players tend to like leveling up as fast as possible without doing any work or enjoying the learning process of leveling up traditionally. It's a stereotype, and just like all stereotypes they exist for a reason.

All you personally need to worry about is doing what you want to do. This is a game, it's supposed to be fun. Don't let other people tell you how to play a game. If they don't like you they can leave your game or boot you, if you don't like them you can do the same. If you want to power level go for it, but make sure you take some time to learn how to play well or else others won't want to play with you and you will be easily discouraged by the harder content later in the game. If that doesn't bother you and you just want to be high level to go back to forest haven and one shot zombies then that's fine too. Do what you want and boot anyone from your game who doesn't agree with you.

This is perfect.

/10 zen

[Swimmingstar]

This is perfect.

/10 zen
@your sig -20.1 charm points for putting that

[Pharcyde]

@your sig -20.1 charm points for putting that

Wait a minute... your not Ladylove... IMPOSTER!!!!

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/10/14/ace6f395-8cf0-4339-a71c-b82d1ecccb32.jpg

[Raulur]

I will not power level somebody unless it is a friend that I know already knows the roles of each class. Even then I will only take them so far, say to level 20ish.

I will, however, allow level appropriate players to play along when I'm farming lower level maps. I will attempt to give them pointers. My opinion is that this is what is missing from PL: mentoring. I actually learned how to do cruel blast by watching a higher level bird giving a friend a boost. This was before I found the forums.

[skavenger216]

I will not power level somebody unless it is a friend that I know already knows the roles of each class. Even then I will only take them so far, say to level 20ish.

I will, however, allow level appropriate players to play along when I'm farming lower level maps. I will attempt to give them pointers. My opinion is that this is what is missing from PL: mentoring. I actually learned how to do cruel blast by watching a higher level bird giving a friend a boost. This was before I found the forums.

The problem is that, no matter how many times I attempt to teach a player, it seems like 90% of the time they don't even attempt to try, even once, doing some of the stuff I mention to them. Ive even gone as far as to switch characters to my bear, to demonstrate "proper" bear play, only to watch them still just wildly scatter mobs about. Mentoring can only do so much if the player just doesn't care to learn. Still doesn't stop me though, as I love the feeling when you come across that 10% who actually do give it a shot, and later down the line pm you thanking you for the help/advice.

[csb]

The problem is that, no matter how many times I attempt to teach a player, it seems like 90% of the time they don't even attempt to try, even once, doing some of the stuff I mention to them. Ive even gone as far as to switch characters to my bear, to demonstrate "proper" bear play, only to watch them still just wildly scatter mobs about. Mentoring can only do so much if the player just doesn't care to learn. Still doesn't stop me though, as I love the feeling when you come across that 10% who actually do give it a shot, and later down the line pm you thanking you for the help/advice.

Well... the bear is really hard. I guess I need lessons. My 55 bear has been booted several times for accidentally scattering, or for beckoning the wrong way. Oops, sorry... boot.

[CanonicalKoi]

Well... the bear is really hard. I guess I need lessons. My 55 bear has been booted several times for accidentally scattering, or for beckoning the wrong way. Oops, sorry... boot.

Aww... :( I don't agree with just booting someone for something like that (I generally don't boot, period). How are people supposed to learn? I work on a lot of stuff solo on my bear, but it's a totally different ballgame with other players around grabbing aggro and Repulsing/Firestorming things out of position. That might be a thought, tho (and I've done this a bit with friends)--baby (or "baby") chars, each of us doing one we don't normally do. Me on bear for example and a bear friend playing bird. They teach me about being a bear while I give them tips on birding. We go through the level really slow, pausing after each mob if possible and talking about how to do things or how to do them better. Add Rauen and Griev, CSB. I promise I won't boot you if there's an oops.

ETA: And yeah. Tanking well is really, really hard. Hat's off and many, many thanks to all the good tanks out there!