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View Full Version : Player Discussion -- Potion GCD & Ideas to Keep Inflation Down



Pharcyde
07-09-2011, 12:40 AM
Here are two idea's presented by myself and judgementbow. Sounds like the community is liking the ideas, lets continue to refine them into something great.

Potion Global Cool-Down: Prevents players from "Potion Guzzling". Players who potion guzzle use no tactic, and lack of tactic is the major flaw that hurt Pocket Legends. The Developers did a great job of setting up Star Legends, it actually requires tactic. One thing we have not seen yet is what will happen when people get enough credits to potion guzzle. A counter-argument against this is "What if I need to heal!?!". Well, that is why you will need to use a thing called PPS & PUT. Wonder what those mean? PPS is Proper Party Setup. PUT is Player Using Tactic. If you want to blindly run into a room full of 30 enemies, and potion jam to survive, then go play pocket legends.

Prevent Inflation & Keep Credits Low: Pocket Legends has major inflation. Which leads to unnecessary spending, and ridiculous prices. One of these unnecessary spending's is buying thousands of potions, to use up in just a few blind dungeon runs. Also, market prices will adjust to credit amounts. Example: In Star Legends, 1,000 credit is equivalent to 10,000-20,000 gold. So expensive items on the consignment shoppe would be 10,000-20,000 credits, compared to Pocket Legends, 100,000-200,000 gold.

Constructive Arguments -

judgementbow against Low Credit Rate - "If the amount/price of credits that can be purchased is lowered, then I'll be fine with credits staying low. If the price for credits doesn't change, anyone could be rich in game by spending a few bucks on credits."

Opinions?
Discuss! :P

Spacetime User Terms and sayings:

Potion Guzzling - The act of constantly having to tap on the potion buttons to survive a dungeon.
Potion Jamming - The act of constantly pressing the potion buttons, just to stay at full healthpoints and manapoints at all times during a dungeon.
PPS - Proper Party Setup
PUT - Player Using Tactic

Otukura
07-09-2011, 12:46 AM
+1 to lower credit rate, it'll make potions more of a gold sink.
+1 to potion cooldown, SL = tactics, PL = casual.

Ellyidol
07-09-2011, 12:49 AM
Out of curiosity, since you bring up credits and keeping the inflation low, do IAP for credits exist? Much like IAP for gold in PL. If so, what are the rates? :)

Tvis
07-09-2011, 12:51 AM
I can see where this would be helpful in PVP, but in PVE, I think players should be allowed to guzzle potions if they wish to. It helps the player and the team in PVE, versus unstrategic guzzling in PVP. PPS? Sounds like a reason for people to boot.

Pharcyde
07-09-2011, 12:53 AM
Sorry, forgot to copy over user terms key. check post in like 30 seconds for terms.


Out of curiosity, since you bring up credits and keeping the inflation low, do IAP for credits exist? Much like IAP for gold in PL. If so, what are the rates? :)

Yeah.. sadly. It's actually a big obstacle for low credit rates. Players could buy 35k credits for a decent amount of platinum. judgementbow, the player with the highest kill amount in the game, is just now hitting 10,000 credits. So that means a player can purchase 35,000 kills worth of credits, while judgementbow, gets 1 credit per kill. (He is 10k+ kills now).

Otukura
07-09-2011, 12:55 AM
I can see where this would be helpful in PVP, but in PVE, I think players should be allowed to guzzle potions if they wish to. It helps the player and the team in PVE, versus unstrategic guzzling in PVP. PPS? Sounds like a reason for people to boot.

I think I'm missing something, there are no potions in PvP. For PL and SL doesn't have it yet.

Tvis
07-09-2011, 12:56 AM
I think I'm missing something, there are no potions in PvP. For PL and SL doesn't have it yet.

Lol, thanks. PVP should stay that way.

Pharcyde
07-09-2011, 12:57 AM
I can see where this would be helpful in PVP, but in PVE, I think players should be allowed to guzzle potions if they wish to. It helps the player and the team in PVE, versus unstrategic guzzling in PVP. PPS? Sounds like a reason for people to boot.

Well, your one of the first players to logically disagree with the pot cooldown. So if you refine your post or add some depth into it, I will post it up on the constructive arguments.

Edit: Now to discuss. Players will still be able to use potions in dungeons, the cooldown would just prevent players from blindly clearing or rushing maps.

Tvis
07-09-2011, 01:02 AM
Well, your one of the first players to logically disagree with the pot cooldown. So if you refine your post or add some depth into it, I will post it up on the constructive arguments.

My point isn't so much an argument as it is an open opinion. I stated the obvious of keep PVP without pots. I wouldn't want anybody limiting me on anything I do in PVE. I'm not a pot guzzler, but we know some people do. Just like how the devs wouldn't keep someone out of a campaign they paid for, I don't think it's right for someone to limit others in something they pay for.

Personally, I would like to see more strategy and less guzzling, but I don't think limiting players freedom in choosing for themselves is the way to go.

Pharcyde
07-09-2011, 01:07 AM
Understandable - But there are limitations on dungeons. The main spine content is free, so you need to be a certain level to join the dungeons (Robo Bandits dungeon, 1-5. Red Star 6-10, ect.) Unless the player hosts it, they are restricted by level from joining it. You did hit a solid point though, STS has always been good at giving players options and not restricting them. My open opinion is that this game becoming a guzzler is not worth the open choice of tactic or guzzle.

Ellyidol
07-09-2011, 01:09 AM
Sorry, forgot to copy over user terms key. check post in like 30 seconds for terms.



Yeah.. sadly. It's actually a big obstacle for low credit rates. Players could buy 35k credits for a decent amount of platinum. judgementbow, the player with the highest kill amount in the game, is just now hitting 10,000 credits. So that means a player can purchase 35,000 kills worth of credits, while judgementbow, gets 1 credit per kill. (He is 10k+ kills now).

Ah. Is it 1 credit = 1 kill in SL?

Otukura
07-09-2011, 01:10 AM
Ah. Is it 1 credit = 1 kill in SL?

1 credit = 1 gold.

EDIT: Elly! Get an android! I want a good tank!

Pharcyde
07-09-2011, 01:13 AM
Ah. Is it 1 credit = 1 kill in SL?

Not exactly, but the drop rate is low enough, that after judgementbow got 10,000 kills, he only had 10,000 credits.

Tvis
07-09-2011, 01:14 AM
Understandable - But there are limitations on dungeons. The main spine content is free, so you need to be a certain level to join the dungeons (Robo Bandits dungeon, 1-5. Red Star 6-10, ect.) Unless the player hosts it, they are restricted by level from joining it. You did hit a solid point though, STS has always been good at giving players options and not restricting them. My open opinion is that this game becoming a guzzler is not worth the open choice of tactic or guzzle.

The limitation on the dungeons was a while back (used as an example). At the point the game is now, potions are costly and gold is hard to come by. Unfortunately, people use real money to buy gold to buy potions. This goes back to STS giving players options. Also, how long of a cool-down do you have in mind? The current cool-down in PL is small and we can use skills very quickly. It was noted that the cool-down was for lowering ping and had no real effect on how quickly we can use skills. Skills can still be used quickly as if there was no cool-down at all. For an effective cool-down, there would need to be a longer down time than what is already set in PL for skills. Btw, is there a cool-down for skills in SL?

Pharcyde
07-09-2011, 01:17 AM
1.5 - 2 seconds. Which isn't bad at all, considering that I usually only have to pop a pot every 10-20 seconds. I also solo dungeons and use tactic. So if players use proper party setup, and actually play with a tactical approach, the cooldown wont be noticeable.

Otukura
07-09-2011, 01:19 AM
1.5 - 2 seconds. Which isn't bad at all, considering that I usually only have to pop a pot every 10-20 seconds. I also solo dungeons and use tactic. So if players use proper party setup, and actually play with a tactical approach, the cooldown wont be noticeable.

O.O

You need a better inner clock, it's the same as PL's GCD.

Pharcyde
07-09-2011, 01:21 AM
O.O

You need a better inner clock, it's the same as PL's GCD.

Inner clock? Yeah, it is the same as PL. What do you think? Too short? Too long?

Otukura
07-09-2011, 01:25 AM
Inner clock? Yeah, it is the same as PL. What do you think? Too short? Too long?

PL isn't 1.5-2 seconds, it's like .2. It was .5 and they 'dramatically' decreased it, I forget what it actually is.

Perfect for skills, but I can swear in PL there's already a hidden cooldown. I can only use 3 or so a second, of each type. Taping health pots as fast as I can gives me 3, and vie versa with mana pots. Switching after each tap and tapping at half the speed for each one gives me 3 of each a second.

Tvis
07-09-2011, 01:29 AM
PL isn't 1.5-2 seconds, it's like .2. It was .5 and they 'dramatically' decreased it, I forget what it actually is.

Perfect for skills, but I can swear in PL there's already a hidden cooldown. I can only use 3 or so a second, of each type. Taping health pots as fast as I can gives me 3, and vie versa with mana pots. Switching after each tap and tapping at half the speed for each one gives me 3 of each a second.

I agree. There is a wait time for the button to become "active" again.

Pharcyde
07-09-2011, 01:41 AM
PL isn't 1.5-2 seconds, it's like .2. It was .5 and they 'dramatically' decreased it, I forget what it actually is.

Perfect for skills, but I can swear in PL there's already a hidden cooldown. I can only use 3 or so a second, of each type. Taping health pots as fast as I can gives me 3, and vie versa with mana pots. Switching after each tap and tapping at half the speed for each one gives me 3 of each a second.

Yeah I noticed that too. You will hear the potion glurp sound fast 3 times, then a sudden delay, then another set of fast potion glurps.

Anyways, 3 a second. Would you guys compromise for a 1-2 potion cap per second?

Otukura
07-09-2011, 01:45 AM
Yeah I noticed that too. You will hear the potion glurp sound fast 3 times, then a sudden delay, then another set of fast potion glurps.

Anyways, 3 a second. Would you guys compromise for a 1-2 potion cap per second?

2 potions every 3 seconds woulds be nice for me :)

Tried it out, and it's more than enough.

Pharcyde
07-09-2011, 01:57 AM
Sounds good, I'm gonna test some combinations when I can actually get onto a Droid (Sigh..).

What about cominations:

2 potions, health and/or mana potions every 3 seconds?

Otukura
07-09-2011, 02:02 AM
Sounds good, I'm gonna test some combinations when I can actually get onto a Droid (Sigh..).

What about cominations:

2 potions, health and/or mana potions every 3 seconds?

Ugh, that's a tough one. I think I could do 2 every 3 for health and 1 ever 3 for mana on a non disabled boss.

3 potions every three seconds, with an and? I could do two, but it's a big change. You need to play much more carefully. This was all soloing; with a group I never use any health ones, just mana.

dcichoracki
07-09-2011, 02:04 AM
I disagree with the global potion cool down.
First, let me make it clear that I'm not by nature a potion guzzler; I like to strategically plan my attacks in PL, drawing out a few enemies from the pack without rushing into the room, but i haven't been able to find that possible in SL.

That being said, I've gotta say that there are times where potion guzzling has to happen. If a player is playing as anything other than an enchantress or engineer, that player is to an extent, at the mercy of others for healing. I've seen, in both games, players that refuse to heal or revive other players. I understand that you can't force a player to do anything but, if I go in to fight a boss with 4 others & the 2 with the best heal abilities won't use those abilities, it's not likely to end well unless I can use a ton of pots.

I've played levels with an enchantress who, through skill respec, has given up heal & revive.

It don't make sense to put a cool down on potions just because a few people are upset that others are using tons of potions.

Remember, this is still a game and you are free to play as you wish. while I agree with the pvp option not allowing potion use & the global skill cool down, I don't want my healing to be left to another player.

I understand the base reasoning, I've been in parties where 1 person rushes a room dragging the enemies back to everyone else, and yeah, it sucks...

Here's a situation: put yourself in a boss fight, one of those huge boss fights from AO3, and imagine your party has 2 healers & neither of them will heal or revive other players (it's happened to me before). Do you still want to have a cool down on potions, or would you like the option of keeping yourself alive to finish the fight?

Pharcyde
07-09-2011, 02:13 AM
Good point, you are at the mercy of your Party. A PGCD would require players to use tactic, and understand their roles. So private friends games becomes a big alternative. Keep discussing guys!

So heres the worst case scenario's with both sides of the discussion.:
Cooldown is added - Players are at the mercy of the skill of the players in a PUG. If Blackstar players are anything like Pocket Legends players, there will be a real lack of skilled players, and PUG's would not be desirable.

Cooldown is not added - Players can continue the same routine they do on Pocket Legends, rush and guzzle. Leading to lack of tactic, and boring, dull dungeon runs.


First, let me make it clear that I'm not by nature a potion guzzler; I like to strategically plan my attacks in PL, drawing out a few enemies from the pack without rushing into the room, but i haven't been able to find that possible in SL.

Off-topic, it is still possible. I recommend you go solo some low level dungeons for a tiny bit. You will start seeing patterns and tactics to luring, and coordinated use of stuns/DOT's.

dcichoracki
07-09-2011, 02:27 AM
Good point, you are at the mercy of your Party. A PGCD would require players to use tactic, and understand their roles. So private friends games becomes a big alternative. Keep discussing guys!

So heres the worst case scenario's with both sides of the discussion.:
Cooldown is added - Players are at the mercy of the skill of the players in a PUG. If Blackstar players are anything like Pocket Legends players, there will be a real lack of skilled players, and PUG's would not be desirable.

Cooldown is not added - Players can continue the same routine they do on Pocket Legends, rush and guzzle. Leading to lack of tactic, and boring, dull dungeon runs.


First, let me make it clear that I'm not by nature a potion guzzler; I like to strategically plan my attacks in PL, drawing out a few enemies from the pack without rushing into the room, but i haven't been able to find that possible in SL.

Off-topic, it is still possible. I recommend you go solo some low level dungeons for a tiny bit. You will start seeing patterns and tactics to luring, and coordinated use of stuns/DOT's.

Yes, I have noticed that there are the same types of patterns to enemies & such.

I think the group nature of SL will cut down on the potion use, I'm sure the devs did when they made them so hard to come by.

I have an alternate suggestion: provide options when we make our own levels to make it with or without a GPC, while standard level entrances will default to the norm.

Conradin
07-09-2011, 12:46 PM
I say a 1.5 second cooldown on pots. Thinm about it this way- even in pug games i could go through Frozen nightmares with a lvl 30 team when you couldnt use pots. I personally think it should be 1.5 on health stims and 1 second on mana stims.

Tvis
07-09-2011, 12:53 PM
I say a 1.5 second cooldown on pots. Thinm about it this way- even in pug games i could go through Frozen nightmares with a lvl 30 team when you couldnt use pots. I personally think it should be 1.5 on health stims and 1 second on mana stims.

We are more experienced players than the new players are, and it's (mostly) the new players that guzzle the pots. We should play the way we want as they play the way they need, so they can survive.

Conradin
07-09-2011, 12:55 PM
We are more experienced players than the new players are, and it's (mostly) the new players that guzzle the pots. We should play the way we want as they play the way they need, so they can survive.

New players cant afford to guzzle. Its mynas gen type players in higher maps that guzzle.

Tvis
07-09-2011, 12:57 PM
New players cant afford to guzzle. Its mynas gen type players in higher maps that guzzle.

The mynas generation... curses :/
Excuse me, should have used "character" rather than "player."

dcichoracki
07-09-2011, 09:20 PM
I didn't know if I should make a new thread for this, but I think it's related to the discussion here...

Kinda branching off from my idea let night on the GPC, what about making options for 'solo levels' from the create a game screen.

This would be designed for higher level players who don't want the noobs crashing their fun. I'm still thinking this through, but I wanted to get it out there for input.

The big reasoning for GPC seems to be to, in a sense, 'force strategic play' as it were. I like the idea behind it, as SL is totally based on team play, but I spent a bunch of fine soloing today in cycorp, mostly looking for buggy things, but also working through the idea.

Here are my thoughts, feel free to share what you think about them.

1: 'Generic' games are those created by hitting the quest button, entering the elevators, etc. These would be designated, by default, as team play.

2: 'Your' games are the ones you create from the create a game screen.

3: SL defaults to low recovery rates & other ideas that really encourage team play. Don't get me wrong here, I like the design, i'm just making a suggestion.

In 'generic' games, the GPC would be enabled no matter what, and recovery rates stay low, to continue to promote team play.

In ' your' games, you can set a sliding scale for GPC in case, for instance, you wanna see if you can take on that boss alone & win, no matter how many potions you burn. Also, in ' your' games, recovery rate can become armor dependant but it's also based on a proportion of players, ie: if you are alone, your armor gives you a recovery boost at 100% of the bonus listed for the armor you have equipped - and I'm not taking the 40+/sec that can happen in PL, but something more than the base of 1/sec that we see now. If there are 2, recovery rate goes to 75%, if 3, 50%, if 4, 25% and if 5, it goes to the base of 1, ignoring armor.

It cut me off before I was done...

Anyway, changing these options when making a game forces you to put a password on the game, giving you the 'friends only' or even a kind of 'hardcore mode'.

just my thoughts, wondered what anyone else would think.