Skill page flipping: Please, it has to go

[bronislav84]

Since there isn't a suggestion forum yet that I can see.....

It's just not good to not have access to all your skills at the same time. People can die, you can die, and problems can arise just because of the amount of time you spend tapping to switch pages. I'm used to having all my skills on my screen in PL, with the option to hide some. The SL implementation is just not very good and just wastes time that could be spent watching where your character is going and not into a wall or something. A lot can happen in 1 or 2 seconds.

I'm not on a Xperia, and it is not as handy on regular phones that don't have a hardware key to flip pages. I understand the Xperia forces you to flip pages due to limited buttons, but if the map toggle key is moved to where it is in PL it should work out fine if screen space is a concern.

Please can the interface be changed to show all the skill keys similar to PL? Doesn't have to exact, and I rather like the quarter circle layout, so maybe layer the second (And possibly third when it is needed) slightly above the first? The arrow would then hide all but the right most skills.

[Ebalere]

Nah, they want you to pick a few skills and go with it, focus on 4 important ones for the first set, and then second page just make as a backup. They want more diverse characters per person and less clutter on screen. It might take a bit to get used to, but ive put two characters to 20 and did just fine, my commando only has about 10-20 deaths and thats without buying any stims..

[bronislav84]

Try being a Eng. Is one an Eng? I just got my fifth skill. I use all of them so far, and then need to flip. Maybe it is different for Com? Can we get more opinions please?

Really think it has to go, especially when people start having 12 skills.

[Ellyidol]

Isn't it 8 skills per class only? Unless I'm mistaken.

IMO, it's part of the game. That's what makes it different from PL. You only find it slower in comparison to PL, but it shouldn't be fully compared apple to apple.

I also went from PL to a shift type skill bar, and at first I didn't like it at all, but got used to it. Will probably take time, but you'll probably get used to it :)

[Derajdefyre]

I disagree with you completely. I think that limiting the number of skills you see at once to four and the total number of skills you have mapped to eight is a brilliant design decision. The devs are allowing (and encouraging, in my opinion) specialization. You get eight skills, all of which can be brought to level six, but right now there are only 20 points to spend. That means you can max three skills at the most. If you want to use all your skills then you need to be a bit more dextrous, but swapping hotkey pages isn't that big of a deal. You can change hotkey pages and select the next ability before GCD is finished.

If you don't like having more than five skills, just pick your four favorite and pump them up with skill points. You will probably be about as effective as someone who has all eight abilities but has them at lower level.

[Acyer]

I love the way it is now. Less clutter on screen and its easy to flip the screen its not like on the other side of the screen its right above last skill.

[grayfox99]

Being an Engineer it's a little different we're effectively hybrids. We have a support and DPS role we can fill, and often we do fill those roles at the same time, but in order to do so we are constantly swapping between bars. For my support bar I have 4 skills, and even then I have more I could use. I like the PL setup at least for my Engineer anyway, my operative doesn't seem to have the same issue tho.

[Fyrce]

Actually I have a lot of trouble activating the skill at the top of the arc vs. flipping pages. It could be my phone.. I don't know. I either do nothing, the phone thinks I've hit menu and I end up on my Avatar screen, or I flip skills page or I hit that skill. It's mostly the 1st two actions 1st though. A bit annoying. I try to put my least of my top 4 skills in that location since most times I can't get it work.

Hopefully, this will be different when I go back to my iPad.

[Pharcyde]

I like the idea of skill flipping. But one thing I dislike is how small the button is.

PLEASE increase the size of the button, so we don't sit there trying to flip the skills menu, and getting shot up with more ballistics than a national firing range.

[Arterra]

i like the idea of specialization. what happens when we have too many skill points is another thing entirely.

however, i would like a bigger button for switching skill tabs. if i miss it, i get problems.

[Haikus]

I like the idea of skill flipping. But one thing I dislike is how small the button is.

PLEASE increase the size of the button, so we don't sit there trying to flip the skills menu, and getting shot up with more ballistics than a national firing range.

OR maybe, you could go through some weird thumb decreasing surgery, so you could accommodate with it... :o That, or point and press with your index finger like some guy who looks like he's playing angry birds. :rolleyes:

[Arterra]

maybe a device shake tabs thru skills? options people ;)

[Gaddy]

Ppl just are not used to the page flipping yet.

Personally I'd like to see the "flip" button a little larger. I seem to miss hitting it a lot...

[bronislav84]

Wow seriously people don't like the idea so far and call it specializing? Surprising. I've seen most of you on PL or PL boards. Also seen some of you in SL. I'd think you'd like it like the original PL way. Well then don't be surprised if next time you need a heal the Engineer next to you dies while trying to heal the party because their thumb didn't hit the swap on time or missed it and the adds mobbed him/her. Of course that's a good time to run for a bit, I suppose.

On that note, I'd go for Phar's idea as a compromise. He usually has good ideas.

Art's idea is great too. I think PL had a shake to wave, but it's never worked for me. Shake to swap for non-PLAY devices is a great idea.

Or let's do both? I still strongly believe this still has to go when they start having more than 8 skills like PL does, though. Having to swap through three pages in order is just asking to get killed, at least for Engineer which has two roles.

[Haikus]

Wow seriously people don't like the idea so far and call it specializing? Surprising. I've seen most of you on PL or PL boards. Also seen some of you in SL. I'd think you'd like it like the original PL way. Well then don't be surprised if next time you need a heal the Engineer next to you dies while trying to heal the party because their thumb didn't hit the swap on time or missed it and the adds mobbed him/her. Of course that's a good time to run for a bit, I suppose.

On that note, I'd go for Phar's idea as a compromise. He usually has good ideas.

Art's idea is great too. I think PL had a shake to wave, but it's never worked for me. Shake to swap for non-PLAY devices is a great idea.

Or let's do both? I still strongly believe this still has to go when they start having more than 8 skills like PL does, though.

That sounds sweet, but about the swapping on time. Maybe you could set up your swaps. One for heal/rev, & other for attack spells. Alternate, in combat, attack spells & outside battle, heal/rev (party spells). Just a thought. Might help.

[bronislav84]

It works out of combat but not so much in combat. With the duration on heal and people getting hit too much sometimes and having to use it a lot while still yourself trying to not die and contributing to damage all at the same time can get hectic. Plus it's so easy to miss the swap. :/ I totally agree it needs to be bigger and/or allow shake to swap.

Why do so many people quote a post directly above them? It's my biggest forum pet peeve. It's completely unnecessary, and I tend to edit later or almost immediately so they often end up outdated.

[Ellyidol]

It works out of combat but not so much in combat. With the duration on heal and people getting hit too much sometimes and having to use it a lot while still yourself trying to not die and contributing to damage all at the same time can get hectic. Plus it's so easy to miss the swap. :/ I totally agree it needs to be bigger and/or allow shake to swap.

Why do so many people quote a post directly above them? It's my biggest forum pet peeve. It's completely unnecessary, and I tend to edit later or almost immediately so they often end up outdated.

Courtesy, IMO.

Shows you are speaking directly to that person, answering his post, and to avoid confusion with anyone else.

Side-bar, how specialized are the skills? 4 heal/support 4 nuke?

[bronislav84]

Hmm I see what you mean. I'm sorry, I haven't really thought it could be courtesy of talking directly to the person you want.

Pretty sure it's indeed four and four, or four attacks and 4 other non attack skills. So far I have one that is a direct DOT attack, one is basically Life Drain over time, a heal over time, Res, and just got what seems to be Mana Shield or at least a shield that absorbs X damage before expiring (Haven't tested this one yet, sorry). And so far I do not have a single damage AOE. Only level 8 though, since this is like my third day beta-ing. So yea, pretty sure there's a definitive split down the middle, or very close. SL "mages" are very over time based and wear Bird type armor, in the sense that essentially Op wears PL cloth, and Eng wears PL leather. Plays totally different from PL and takes getting used to.

[Ellyidol]

Hmm I see what you mean. I'm sorry, I haven't really thought it could be courtesy of talking directly to the person you want.

Pretty sure it's indeed four and four, or four attacks and 4 other non attack skills. So far I have one that is a direct DOT attack, one is basically Life Drain over time, a heal over time, Res, and just got what seems to be Mana Shield or at least a shield that absorbs X damage before expiring (Haven't tested this one yet, sorry). And so far I do not have a single damage AOE. Only level 8 though, since this is like my third day beta-ing. So yea, pretty sure there's a definitive split down the middle, or very close. SL "mages" are very over time based and wear Bird type armor, in the sense that essentially Op wears PL cloth, and Eng wears PL leather. Plays totally different from PL and takes getting used to.

No need to apologize, I get what you mean :)

I see, since 8 is that max number of skills, I wonder how level caps will change that. Max per skill is 6? Or more?

[bronislav84]

I've been told 6 is highest rank like PL, yes. Some have said it is 5 like older PL. There are 12 skill slots on my list but only 8 can be mapped. This leads me to believe that there are currently 8 skills per class, but I dunno yet for sure since I've only learned five. Most likely place holders for later.

Just a guess and wishful thinking here, but they just might have to let you see all your skills once there's more than 8. The interface looks pretty polished as is, but it could just be unavoidable. Having to flip past a third page would be a bit much while all the other stuff is going on and boss fights can get annoying with battle hazards if PL is any example. Wonder how the PLAY users are doing with 3 skill keys per page?

Did I mention I level slow because of RL, socializing, and just generally not being in a hurry? Yea, sorry I'm slow.

[Haikus]

It works out of combat but not so much in combat. With the duration on heal and people getting hit too much sometimes and having to use it a lot while still yourself trying to not die and contributing to damage all at the same time can get hectic. Plus it's so easy to miss the swap. :/ I totally agree it needs to be bigger and/or allow shake to swap.

Why do so many people quote a post directly above them? It's my biggest forum pet peeve. It's completely unnecessary, and I tend to edit later or almost immediately so they often end up outdated.

What Elly said. And, with people like Otukura, Pharcyde, etc. You never know when you are going to be ninja'd. ;) Then, I'd look dumb for some time, with it looking like I'm speaking to him, with something meant for you, by the time I get back to the thread. So, it's just easier.

:)

[bronislav84]

Well the ninja thing I get. Usually I'd quote people in that case if it is not the last post, but been wondering why people do it in a slow moving thread. I suppose it makes sense. Still somewhat annoying to have to scroll through a post I just wrote and got a reply to immediately, but at least I get why people do it now. It's good to know this is not laziness or meant to be disrespectful. :)

[Otukura]

and, with people like Otukura, Pharcyde, etc. You never know when you are going to be ninja'd

I didn't even see this :3

Only from 11am-2pm, 4:20pm to 6:20pm, and 7:30pm to midnight. I take movie breaks in between.

[Whatyouwill]

Yes, it is difficult to get used to swapping between pages, but it is an interesting mechanism. I don't have the full skill set yet, but I can already tell I will not be using all of them. My solution to the engineer's need to spam heal was to assign the skill on both pages. It may seem like a waste, but it works for me so far. I have done the same with the heal skills for my other characters too.
& when it comes to having more than eight skills to choose from we will just have to get used to swapping them in as & when they're needed.
Dsyphoria/topia/rhythmia

[Raulur]

I do not mind it the skill set switching, but yes it is sometimes difficult to switch skill sets without triggring a skill by accident.

[SknyAndy]

I agree with Derajdefyre. I think irascible great decision as well. There is more strategy involved in not only specializing in skills but also how you map them. I have found the game to be a lot more interesting and involved.

[ratava]

I disagree with you completely. I think that limiting the number of skills you see at once to four and the total number of skills you have mapped to eight is a brilliant design decision. The devs are allowing (and encouraging, in my opinion) specialization. You get eight skills, all of which can be brought to level six, but right now there are only 20 points to spend. That means you can max three skills at the most. If you want to use all your skills then you need to be a bit more dextrous, but swapping hotkey pages isn't that big of a deal. You can change hotkey pages and select the next ability before GCD is finished.

If you don't like having more than five skills, just pick your four favorite and pump them up with skill points. You will probably be about as effective as someone who has all eight abilities but has them at lower level.

Well have not played yet as SL is STILL not out for iOS.... *grumbles*

but this is in theory from what I have seen THE BEST DESIGN DECISION by STS for SL I've seen so far. It makes soo much sense. I agree with above poster's explanation and oc OP if you have a point about implimentation maybe that is worth focusing more on or variation of?

[bronislav84]

rat please read the entire thread before commenting. I've explained it already. I'm a Engineer and use ALL my skills (Except Mez) and there's no specializing an Engineer because we pull double duty and it otherwise makes you sub par support or even worse at damage than you are already.

It baffles me that so many people like the flipping. Truly.

[ratava]

rat please read the entire thread before commenting. I've explained it already. I'm a Engineer and use ALL my skills (Except Mez) and there's no specializing an Engineer because we pull double duty and it otherwise makes you sub par support or even worse at damage than you are already.

It baffles me that so many people like the flipping. Truly.

Ok Bron, my bad, as said I've only seen the mechanic, and cannot use it yet (Wah!) so I stand corrected on the specific part on the Engi. I wonder if the devs can comment on this as it's major part of the game? They have already confirmed they are looking at the size of the area to press to skill-flip, which is good progress so far. :)

RE: WHY? This "might" help: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skill_bar It's a great addition to that mmo also imo

[Fyrce]

I actually really like the idea of having to choose which skills you use and which ones you use the most. And yes, it might mean trying to figure out how to map your skills more efficiently.

My only thing is yep, that skill flipping button is better than it's been (I might just be more used to it) but I still sometimes Revive instead of flip pages :)

[Derajdefyre]

I recently hit level 20 and discovered that Commandos have NINE skills. In the end, I actually only spent points in four skills total (after a respec... I tried all skills at some point). My Operative is only level 11, but I use more than four of my skills regularly so far and I haven't had any trouble swapping. I DO have an Xperia Play, but I have played with the game pad shut (which changes the interface to be exactly like the rest of you) and I totally agree that the swapping needs to be more fluid.

I still stand by my statement that the current interface is a brilliant design decision, but I also agree that the implementation needs a bit of smoothing out. That's why we're in beta though, is to help point these things out!

I highly recommend that you play with your skills for a while and organize them in a way that minimizes swapping mid combat. Also, make some choices about whether some skills are really necessary. Do you need that DoT you got at level 2? That's one that I plan on dropping for sure on my Engineer. You can take that one point and add it to a more useful skill to make that other skill stronger!

[bronislav84]

Ok Bron, my bad, as said I've only seen the mechanic, and cannot use it yet (Wah!) so I stand corrected on the specific part on the Engi. I wonder if the devs can comment on this as it's major part of the game? They have already confirmed they are looking at the size of the area to press to skill-flip, which is good progress so far. :)

RE: WHY? This "might" help: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skill_bar It's a great addition to that mmo also imoIt's definitely a start, but the swap right now seriously can get you killed if you miss it. If I don't walk around before I enter combat with skill bar 2 (Which has buffs), I'm at a disadvantage when it starts because having to flip to it. In longer fights like bosses, every swap means shifting attention away from the action. Especially if you miss.

*goes to read the gw2 link to see how it is relevant* EDIT: Jeez Louise, that's complicated! Considering GW characters have way more skills than can fit, the limit placed on which are usable makes me wonder why people even get more than 5. But then again I haven't played the first game so there's probably a good reason.
I recently hit level 20 and discovered that Commandos have NINE skills. In the end, I actually only spent points in four skills total (after a respec... I tried all skills at some point). My Operative is only level 11, but I use more than four of my skills regularly so far and I haven't had any trouble swapping. I DO have an Xperia Play, but I have played with the game pad shut (which changes the interface to be exactly like the rest of you) and I totally agree that the swapping needs to be more fluid.

I still stand by my statement that the current interface is a brilliant design decision, but I also agree that the implementation needs a bit of smoothing out. That's why we're in beta though, is to help point these things out!

I highly recommend that you play with your skills for a while and organize them in a way that minimizes swapping mid combat. Also, make some choices about whether some skills are really necessary. Do you need that DoT you got at level 2? That's one that I plan on dropping for sure on my Engineer. You can take that one point and add it to a more useful skill to make that other skill stronger!Thank you for the insight on the PLAY. Figured you got used to swaps, but the rest of us are having to get used to the mechanic or choose.

As for dropping the DOT, it doesn't particularly hurt you to have it. In fact your be at a disadvantage to not have it. Wither is one source of damage for Enginees, and does more of it than Drain. Why have one DOT ticking when you can have two? You're basically lowering your ability to do meaningful damage, and might as well have no attacks at all with that reasoning. We need to be able kill stuff too. Everybody else supplements their weapon damage with skills, why don't you?

Of course my opinion might still change in 5 more levels, but this is what I got right now.

[Fncrazy]

Four skills per page sucks period. Argue all u want for it, but sucks is all it does.

[Ebalere]

I enjoy it, havent had a problem switching pages or anything. I have all three chars, so i don't need a dps engi. Mine has 6 skills with points in them, and for the remaining two slots on the second page, i put my heal and armor buff double. That way it doesnt matter which page i'm on, i can always heal. It's not that big of a deal, in fact i never even noticed till everyone said something. I think it's fun and a breathe of fresh air from mashing 12 skills constantly.

[Fncrazy]

I might be a little to hard about my stance, but I'm just thinkin ahead. When we have 12 skills I think its gonna be real annoying. Especially on my phone which is my only way of playing.

[Pokechmp]

I ok used to it. I had to do it in a game called world of magic

[Pokechmp]

Well have not played yet as SL is STILL not out for iOS.... *grumbles*I feel your pain

[jjhiza]

I think adding a 5th skill to each page would be fine. That leaves two skills unmapped, that you probably won't use anyway. I, personally like the new system...it forces you to specialize (as has been stated before), and puts more of a premium on player skill and timing, versus ability button spamming. Seeing how combos will be worked in is going to be interesting though, and with the current layout, it could be hard, but I guess we'll see. I have two level 21's, an Engineer (MegamanIX), and an Operative (Ecuas), and I haven't had any issues with mapping my skills appropriately ...

[Arterra]

Zenonia.

Nuff said. If you can dungeon crawl solo in a game twice as hard with only 4 spells at atime, you can here too.

It is not PL, simple as that. The auto attack actually means something.