Comprehensive: Why bears have the short-end of the character stick -- Long read.

[Ellyidol]

Just want to point out how bears have the short-end of the stick. My opinions and observations from different levels of PvP and PvE. Whether you agree or disagree, this is what I think.

I'll try to start from a general perspective proceeding to a more detailed perspective.

PS: This is going to be quite a "tl:dr" descriptive explanation, so pardon me, only goes to show how strongly I feel about it.

The Real tl;dr

After much lengthy discussion and debate on this topic throughout the post, the OP only contains exaggerated suggestions. There have been more suitable suggestions throughout the thread. So before you keyboard smash after (if) reading the OP, read the thread :)

Not really a tl;dr huh.


How do bears have the short-end of the stick?

To keep things simple and uniform, I will assume that non-bear builds will be pure. Birds pure dex, mages pure int.

The proposed allocation of stat points for each class is,

Bear = Str
Bird = Dex
Mage = Int

I also think that the "best" of each class (bird/mage) are the pures. A pure dex bird can do what it does best, damage and kill. A pure int mage can do what it does best, support and nuke.

A pure str bear cannot do what it does best, tank.

Just on stats alone, bears already have the shorter-end of the stick by needing to have hybrid stats, at minimum. A pure str bear will never, never out-perform a str/dex bear in tanking, damaging, or debuffing. The only thing it can do better than a hybrid is outlast it if both stand still and just receive a pounding, which is non-existent in this game other than the occasional lag spike.

Tanking in this game, if not every game, is not just about standing still to take damage. It is about keeping your team alive through taking damage, in other words, aggro and control.

Our only aggro skill (Taunt) is already controversial. There is no official way to tell how it works. How long does it take aggro? How strongly does it take aggro? Does each level increase, increase the amount of aggro gained? More importantly, it can miss. This only reinforces the need for a bear to have dex, to have Hit %.

Control. Tanking isn't only doable through aggro, but control, more specifically, mob control/crowd control. We have Beckon, Stomp, and arguably Hell Scream. Again, reinforcing the dex/Hit % issue.

Do note, that aggro and control only fully apply to PvE. Aggro doesn't work in PvP, and control isn't as effective in PvP. The stat problem isn't as pronounced in PvE compared to PvP. PvE has potions, allowing the use of gear with Hit %, Dodge % and Armour instead of regen. PvP has no potions.


PvP

PvP is very different. The stat or dex/Hit % problem stated earlier is more pronounced and has a bigger impact here. Before I get into Hit % and its issues, I'll talk about a general perspective first.

Again, assumption that no hybrids and no dual specs. Pure dex birds, pure int mages, and melee bears.

Melee vs Range. That alone, understandable, melee always has the disadvantage against range. Common sense, no arguments there.

My argument is on the fighting chance of melee bears from range.

What is the longest ranged skill of a bear? Beckon, 12m. Hell Scream, 8m. Stomp, 8m. Slashes, 4m. Crushing Blow, 3m.

What do we go up against? Other than the 12/10m skills, 2 roots, 1 pushback shot, 1 12m freeze, 1 6m freeze and 1 fire pushback.

Against ONE Root/Freeze, we have Stomp to break-free with. Extensive discussion on this issue is here : http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?31093-Suggestion-Bear-skill-to-break-out-of-freeze-root.
(http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?31093-Suggestion-Bear-skill-to-break-out-of-freeze-root.)

After our already initial disadvantage of range is our equally significant disadvantage in Hit %.

Bears have the lowest Hit %. Pure dex birds, self-explanatory. Pure int mages, if I'm not mistaken and from evidence of Wallace's thread of "How to spec your mage" (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?27962-How-to-spec-your-mage), mages don't have a problem on Hit % either. Even without any Hit % gear, I believe both pure dex birds and pure int mages still get a close to 100% hit rate, please correct me here.

My personal 56 bear has 96-98% Hit, depending on the ring used.

129/155 Str/Dex.
Royal Helm
Rooter's Sword
Royal Plate
Bellow Shield

If I remove the added dex and the Rooter's Sword, I lose 31% Hit. That drops it down to 65-67% Hit rate. I'm already having trouble connecting all my skills consecutively with 96-98 Hit, let alone with 65-67.

If skills don't hit, birds and mages can normally attack and kite, bears can try to chase and die.


Bears rely on odds too much.

'Rely on odds', bears in majority rely on two things to perform in PvP (similar to birds/mages too),

Kill = Crit %
Live = Dodge %

Armour is important, but less significant due to the amount of Crit % that end-game birds/mages get. Leaving the best survival stat to be Dodge, to avoid the damage taken instead of reducing it.

No crit buff, no dodge buff, close to useless bear unless standing right next to target -- Hit issue and range issue. In my opinion, this is a general experience though. Shows how excessively potent buffs are, but that's another discussion.


Damage. I've always thought and understood that being melee equates having the highest potential damage output.

It makes sense, have a distance disadvantage but have better damage IF you do get near.

Why bother playing a class if you can't get near, and if you do, can't out-damage?

If I'm not mistaken, pure dex birds are better off with bows and pure int mages are better off with staves, bears are in majority better off with a sword+shield. Consequently, birds and mages have the damage of 2H weapons, bears have 1H weapons.

Which leads me to my next observation.

2H str weapons. Royal Sewer Battle Hammer, very disappointing. I still stand by my opinion that the Gurgox Hammer is still the best 2H str weapon in the game. Also the most understandable. It's a 2H str weapon, it has huge damage, which is supposed to be the case.



These problems are inter-related.

The sequence is Range - Hit % - Odds - Damage.

To combat range, we have Beckon. Assuming Beckon connects, our Hit % issue arises. Assuming our debuff/combat skills connect, for debuffs it stops here, for combat skills the odds/damage issue arises. Does it crit? Does it do enough damage?

Or

To combat range, we have Beckon. Assume Beckon doesn't connect. We either chase him down both having the same move speed - DotA/HoN/LoL type players know how move speed and chasing is related - and the gap never closes, or we decide to run the opposite direction and suffer having to deal with the roots/freezes/12m skills that we are now in range of.

Or

To combat range, Beckon. Beckon connects, but we get pushed back/rooted/frozen. We Stomp to break free, and we can either chase or run away, same situation as earlier. Or we don't Stomp, we wait til the root/freeze is over while taking damage the entire time.

For those that have experienced this, I'm sure you can relate. For those that haven't, I'm hoping it's understandable.

Like I said, the problems are inter-related. Bears deal from one problem to the next, while birds/mages have easier options.
These problems are more noticeable as you progress to end-game. I played at 15 PvP (though this doesn't really count, all classes don't have all their skills yet), 25 PvP, 35 PvP, then jumped to end-game PvP, and played with two mindsets,

1. I am not looking for said problems, everything was balanced.

2. I am looking for the problems, putting myself in the said situations to find a way out.

In a nutshell, I could not help but think of the four problems no matter what mindset I was in. I'll try to take photos on situations that showcase the problems, such as important skills being on cooldown (Beckon, Stomp) but being frozen/rooted in place with nothing to do but stand there.

Suggestions

1. Re-work bear skills. Development of new ones to replace existing ones.

Aggro - Give Taunt a 100% success rate, a fixed amount of time aggro'd, and an uninterruptile Taunted/Aggro'd status.

Charge - Give us a chance to get near and not rely on Beckon alone. Let us Charge in. Replace Crippling Slash, the most "useless" slash.

Damage - Improve skill damage. That's all we have. We currently need to use a 1H Sword + Shield, so normal attacks are almost non-significant. Alternatively, you can boost up 1H weapon damage, or actually provide good end-game 2H weapons.

Break-Free - Change it from Stomp to Hell Scream. Stomp is our only combo finisher yet is our only ticket out to the countless roots/freezes that we have to face, yet only have one Stomp to combat it with. It kills two birds with one stone if we use Stomp. Break free but no combo, or stay rooted for the chance of a combo. Either way, we lose one thing. Birds don't lose anything with their break-free skill, neither do mages with heal.

2. Okay, don't improve bear damage, just make us real tanks. Not a "tank" that relies on dodge to live, neither a "tank" that has to kite to survive. A real tank that's meant to dive in and get down and dirty in the front lines.



I hope my observations make sense. There has been great discussion on such issues in these threads,

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?24007-Suggestion-A-Change-In-Warriors!
(http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?24007-Suggestion-A-Change-In-Warriors!)
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?31016-Bear-in-PVP-are-under-powered
(http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?31016-Bear-in-PVP-are-under-powered)
Do note, I'm not asking for bears to have a one-shot skill/combo neither for an invulnerability skill. I'm not asking for bears to be over-powered or birds/mages to be nerfed.

I'm pointing out the disadvantages that bears face with the hopes of being put to par with birds and mages. Let us compete and not be a burden. Asset and not a liability. Have a primary, instead of a secondary, purpose.

Pardon my lengthy post, like I said earlier, it only shows how strongly I feel towards this issue.

And no, playing a bird or mage is not an option for me. It's not that they aren't good, in fact, the entire thread pretty much points out how good they are against bears at least. I don't plan on backing out or avoiding these problems by simply switching to another toon. You don't get better if you use the easy way out.

Thanks.

[Tamino]

Premise 1: I agree on all your points, they are based on real facts.
Premise 2: I don't play PVP, I just started to do something with a 25 mage and my experience on the topic is almost nothing.
Premise 3: I have three mains (Lev 56 bird, elf and dual STR/DEX bear), used only in PVE.

Given that, in my experience the most easy and relaxing toon to be played is the bear. It was difficult to set-up, it required experiments, dual-spec added a layer of complexity, but nevertheless it can be played without stress and compensating PUGs inefficiencies. The same isn't true for mages (good survivability and low cost, but at price of running forth and back reviving and healing) and neither for birds (expensive a lot and suffering from bad PUGs). Sometimes I clear the way to arrive to Bank Vault with the bear, then I switch to bird for completing the daily quest (consuming 10-15 pots, 0 with bear).

I cannot say why, and mostly it can be pure coincidence, but at least in PVE bears are THE BEST. It could be better? Sure, you explained how. But (a few PVP points apart) this will lead to a bigger unbalance toward bears. IMHO, of course !

[Ellyidol]

I see where you're coming from :)

Have personally experienced the mage running back and forth situation, definitely tiresome.

As for the bird, it could be debatable too, IMO. I'd like to think that for my bird-buddies, that a good bear drastically reduces their potion consumption. Mana consumption would most probably stay the same, if not more. However for health, a good bear should probably keep the use to a minimum, moreover if a good mage keeps healing up.

And yes, bears are good in PvE, my favorite between the 3 classes by a long shot :) Arguably though, I think how good a character, be it bear/bird/mage, would be is up to the player controlling the character and how he favors the class. I'm sure the bird/mage masters also think their bird/mage as best for them :)

I also see what you mean by changing stuff for PvP affecting PvE. Very true. To be honest, I'll be very satisfied if they gave us at least the Charge aspect. I don't think it would affect PvE that much, if not, make the bear more useful in terms of staying ahead of the group. Its impact on PvP, however, would be tremendous!

[Conradin]

Yes- Bears have been wimpy since the Great Bear Nerf. I think your right, the best way to fix bears is thier skills. Not only would charge (im guessing a speed ruhs, or teleport to target) let us get closer in pvp, but would help us tank at the front of the pack. and agreed taunt is weak- it needs to be better at getting aggro. Our skills could be a lilttle stronger- mainly the slashes.


as for pvp- i can take birds and mages usually only on corners or behind trees (55 pvp) Maybe after 35 the slash could become charge. This might help equal lower lvl pvp..

[drewcapu]

I've been very stubborn about my bear and have kept it pure str in hopes that it'll get tweaked some day. And yes, I don't mind looking silly wearing two pieces of Mystery :D

There was something I vaguely remember (pretty sure) Fluffy said long ago about 2H's being bugged in a way. I don't remember the details. But it is pretty disappointing that none of the BS 2H Pinks are ever worth equipping.

I still like the idea of a charge skill. It may make bears actually want to wear their vyx helms ;)

[Register]

Lol I guess my bird fails...dual spec xD

[Lesrider]

Yep, I usually choose warriors first in any game, as they're the easiest to play and great for the first run-through. So I chose bear first, naturally. But I felt so useless compared to the birds and mages that I quickly made a bird and Mage. This is the ONLY game I have ever preferred a Mage over a warrior. The only time bears had any use was in the early ao3 days, when mages were extra squishy and bears were absolutely necessary. That was the only time I played my bear. Gave up on him right after the nerf.

I hope SL makes warriors/commandos more fun to play.

[nazgulking]

I agree with Elly. I have a Bear and a Paladin and like them both (bear for crowd control abilities, paladin for beign able to auto-heal, making pot consumption equal to 0). Unfortunately my bear without hit% boosting gear is very depressing, since my beacon can interact with 2 out of 6 baddies at a given time, diminishing my crowd control role in the team. I've read somewhere on this forum a STS dev saying that PL class needs a rework and I hope they will do it :)

[Barrington]

I've been very stubborn about my bear and have kept it pure str in hopes that it'll get tweaked some day. And yes, I don't mind looking silly wearing two pieces of Mystery :D

There was something I vaguely remember (pretty sure) Fluffy said long ago about 2H's being bugged in a way. I don't remember the details. But it is pretty disappointing that none of the BS 2H Pinks are ever worth equipping.

I still like the idea of a charge skill. It may make bears actually want to wear their vyx helms ;)

or jacobs helm - look like a tazor

[Ellyidol]

as for pvp- i can take birds and mages usually only on corners or behind trees (55 pvp) Maybe after 35 the slash could become charge. This might help equal lower lvl pvp..

That actually raises a really good point and issue too.

We have the sequence of problems of Range - Hit - Odds - Damage, yet our "killing move", therefore fighting chance, actually promotes this issue.

We Beckon - (insert whatever skills here for build up, CB/SMS/HS) - Stomp and we have a combo. But, unless we wall pin or tree pin, which I admit is not always possible in PvP, especially some maps, this combo pushes them quite far away putting you back in square one.

But you're right, mages/birds are easier if they are tree/wall pinned. I find it funny if all bears start wall/tree hugging during fights though. Lol.


I've been very stubborn about my bear and have kept it pure str in hopes that it'll get tweaked some day. And yes, I don't mind looking silly wearing two pieces of Mystery :D

There was something I vaguely remember (pretty sure) Fluffy said long ago about 2H's being bugged in a way. I don't remember the details. But it is pretty disappointing that none of the BS 2H Pinks are ever worth equipping.

I still like the idea of a charge skill. It may make bears actually want to wear their vyx helms ;)

Lol drew, I'm stubborn in the sense that I will never give my bird/mage a chance to replace my bear too :p

I actually don't mind having to wear cheap or non-premium gear, the best set-up for a bear through BS gear is quite cheap anyway, premium gear for a bear is second in 2H weapons for disappointment. But, I can only see it getting worse from here. Next update, will we still need to wear 55 gear while birds/mages wear the 60 gear already?

I actually came across a bear yesterday, mystery/AO3 gear set up, performed quite well giving that he must have been below 55.


Lol I guess my bird fails...dual spec xD

Doesn't fail :p I just use and prefer pure builds here to uncomplicate things, too tedious having to deal with all sorts of hybrids when pointing out issues.

I, of all people, should know how dual specs are good ;)


Yep, I usually choose warriors first in any game, as they're the easiest to play and great for the first run-through. So I chose bear first, naturally. But I felt so useless compared to the birds and mages that I quickly made a bird and Mage. This is the ONLY game I have ever preferred a Mage over a warrior. The only time bears had any use was in the early ao3 days, when mages were extra squishy and bears were absolutely necessary. That was the only time I played my bear. Gave up on him right after the nerf.

I hope SL makes warriors/commandos more fun to play.

Same path here. In my opinion, warriors are supposed to be the easiest class to play, where player skill is easy to pick up and the general play style is straightforward. Definitey different here, in terms of tanking and PvP. Quite interesting beingna warrior yet having the need to kite your ranged opponent. Lol.


I agree with Elly. I have a Bear and a Paladin and like them both (bear for crowd control abilities, paladin for beign able to auto-heal, making pot consumption equal to 0). Unfortunately my bear without hit% boosting gear is very depressing, since my beacon can interact with 2 out of 6 baddies at a given time, diminishing my crowd control role in the team. I've read somewhere on this forum a STS dev saying that PL class needs a rework and I hope they will do it :)

I had a pally back in the AO3 days too. I have to admit, I actually found it a better tank than my bear. Although the crowd control is little to none, pallies actually don't have to worry about dying at all. Like you said, they don't even need to use pots. Lol.

I hope so too. Looking back, I can't begin to imagine the case now if they didn't do that stat rebalance for the game. I'm extremely grateful for that, as it also gave more headroom, but it seems that it has been filled up again after one campaign. Another issue that would call for another thread though ;)

[Fyrce]

Charge (speed up for bear) would be pretty nice. I can keep my bear up front by anticipating killing shots and moving onward as the kill is happening. BUT this meant dual-specing my bear so he could use ranged weapons.

I thought like drew. I did not dual spec until recently. I stuck w/ almost all str (some dex for hit%) until I realized I was playing my bear less and less and enjoying him not as much. And I really love my bear. I really love that bears lead and head the team, etc. But his damage was low and he couldn't run ahead because he has to be melee range from his previous kill, which puts him behind the birds and mages.

I decided my bear needed a ranged weapon in order to start heading toward the next kill area while also still hitting. In addition, as he's approaching the enemy, he can start getting aggro, as birds and mages rarely wait on their ranged weapons for the bear.

I love my bear again! Though I accidentally max-leveled him (it was pretty easy :) ), so now I play my mage more (which still needs a little 70k xp). My bear still has some damage issues but at least he's now leading again.

But he had to get a ranged weapon in order to lead...

which is a bit strange for a warrior... which is supposedly melee.

We need bear-love!

[Johnaudi]

You have letten the bear owns :) again...

[Swimmingstar]

Well there is a really good bear but he is dual spec I usually on my mage kill all the dex bears but this guy is really good he can kill me str and dex

[Kalielle]

I agree with Elly. I think the main problem is that the aggro is often all over the place in PL, and bears don't really have any good abilities to keep it. I remember from the days when Frozen Nightmares was hard at level 45 before the rebalance, and from the days of the pre-nerf yellow aliens when AO3 just came out, that as a mage I had no way of not getting some random aggro and getting one-shotted. I played with some of the best tanks out there, and I was really, really careful to not attack before they did, and to target the one guy out of the mob that they were targeting with their weapon - and still I'd get aggro. Playing a pure int mage - especially a staff mage - was not an option.

So then the one-shotting problem was solved with the rebalance, by making all mobs weaker and giving players a lot more health so that they could cope with the random aggro. I think that was a good move but it still didn't solve the aggro problem, and it made all dungeons quite a bit less challenging. And there's no way to have more challenging dungeons with the current class structure until bears can hold aggro better - the early AO3 days showed that. The bears' weakness as tanks is limiting the possible difficulty of the game as a whole.

Another option would be to decide that PL was the kind of game where no class is the single designated aggro-holder, like Spiral Knights. Already it's getting close to that - birds and mages often run ahead and have no trouble tanking, especially in easier maps. But in that case bears should get a boost to damage, because otherwise they'd be useless since they're not needed as tanks. (Of course then they should also get a decrease in armor so they're on par with everyone else.)

I'd much prefer the first option - having bears as true tanks, not just as dps with a beckon ability for crowd control. It's not particularly interesting to play dungeons where everyone is just running along with no particular person tanking. Class roles make this game a lot more fun. If the aggro issue could be fixed, bears could then be buffed in armor and health and everyone else could be weakened, and we could have challenging dungeons again.

[Ellyidol]

Charge (speed up for bear) would be pretty nice. I can keep my bear up front by anticipating killing shots and moving onward as the kill is happening. BUT this meant dual-specing my bear so he could use ranged weapons.

I thought like drew. I did not dual spec until recently. I stuck w/ almost all str (some dex for hit%) until I realized I was playing my bear less and less and enjoying him not as much. And I really love my bear. I really love that bears lead and head the team, etc. But his damage was low and he couldn't run ahead because he has to be melee range from his previous kill, which puts him behind the birds and mages.

I decided my bear needed a ranged weapon in order to start heading toward the next kill area while also still hitting. In addition, as he's approaching the enemy, he can start getting aggro, as birds and mages rarely wait on their ranged weapons for the bear.

I love my bear again! Though I accidentally max-leveled him (it was pretty easy :) ), so now I play my mage more (which still needs a little 70k xp). My bear still has some damage issues but at least he's now leading again.

But he had to get a ranged weapon in order to lead...

which is a bit strange for a warrior... which is supposedly melee.

We need bear-love!

You're right in that we tend to fall behind, it only makes sense too with how easy the dungeons are now. If I lead, I don't even bother finishing off the mobs anymore before I move on to the next area, just something I've grown to accept in BS.

Spot on, it's weird how you have more fun as a dex bear than a melee bear. Though personal preference pushes me to be melee bear in PvP, I've also grown to learn using it for PvE.

I have absolutely nothing against dual spec-ing or hybrids, again of all people, how could I disapprove of these builds? Lol :)


You have letten the bear owns :) again...

Nope, I'm not asking for bears to own or to dominate or to be superior. If they do make changes, and they will probably need testing and iteration, it will be quite easy to see how overpowered the changes are.

I don't want bears overpowered either, where's the fun in that? :D

We have to remember, that the OP bear was pre-GCD. Ever since GCD was implemented, the entire game has changed. I'll admit, I tried the multi-touching capabilities before, and a bear was heavily favored.


Well there is a really good bear but he is dual spec I usually on my mage kill all the dex bears but this guy is really good he can kill me str and dex

There are heaps of awesome bears out there, unfortunately some don't use the forums or are as transparent as I wish to be. But put an equally skilled bear versus an equally skilled mage/bird, and I can almost guarantee only luck factoring in wins for the bear.


I agree with Elly. I think the main problem is that the aggro is often all over the place in PL, and bears don't really have any good abilities to keep it. I remember from the days when Frozen Nightmares was hard at level 45 before the rebalance, and from the days of the pre-nerf yellow aliens when AO3 just came out, that as a mage I had no way of not getting some random aggro and getting one-shotted. I played with some of the best tanks out there, and I was really, really careful to not attack before they did, and to target the one guy out of the mob that they were targeting with their weapon - and still I'd get aggro. Playing a pure int mage - especially a staff mage - was not an option.

So then the one-shotting problem was solved with the rebalance, by making all mobs weaker and giving players a lot more health so that they could cope with the random aggro. I think that was a good move but it still didn't solve the aggro problem, and it made all dungeons quite a bit less challenging. And there's no way to have more challenging dungeons with the current class structure until bears can hold aggro better - the early AO3 days showed that. The bears' weakness as tanks is limiting the possible difficulty of the game as a whole.

Another option would be to decide that PL was the kind of game where no class is the single designated aggro-holder, like Spiral Knights. Already it's getting close to that - birds and mages often run ahead and have no trouble tanking, especially in easier maps. But in that case bears should get a boost to damage, because otherwise they'd be useless since they're not needed as tanks. (Of course then they should also get a decrease in armor so they're on par with everyone else.)

I'd much prefer the first option - having bears as true tanks, not just as dps with a beckon ability for crowd control. It's not particularly interesting to play dungeons where everyone is just running along with no particular person tanking. Class roles make this game a lot more fun. If the aggro issue could be fixed, bears could then be buffed in armor and health and everyone else could be weakened, and we could have challenging dungeons again.

I remember! Those days, a bear was essential to run through maps with those yellow guys.

I agree too, that if PL is actually a non-role type game, this wouldn't be an issue. For that to happen though, they'd need to restructure their whole game concept. I remember reading about PL a lot before actually playing, and reading about it even more when I was playing, and the underlying role of a warrior has always been tank. I also didn't expect that hybrids (dual specs, hybrid stats) would actually be at par with the pure builds and that the game would revolve around pure builds and player skill differentiating them.

[Roasty]

My full rift bird works fine with me! :(

And this is a VERY impressive thread! :)

[Ellyidol]

My full rift bird works fine with me! :(

And this is a VERY impressive thread! :)

Haha, thannk you :)

And I didn't say they suck, I just think that in fulfilling their class roles, pures are better.

iDPS = Dex Bird
iNuke = Int Mage
iTank = Well, you know :)

[Fyrce]

I was pretty sad the day I went ahead and dual-spec'ed my bear. It took me a long time to think it over: About hit %, getting aggro early, moving ahead of the group.

It was unfortunate I had to decide that for a bear to stay in front and start aggro properly, he has to obtain range in his attack, to get in front of the ranged attacks of the rest of the group.

As a bird/mage I always wait for the bear to choose his enemies, assuming I have a leading bear, before I do damage, but many players do not do this. They start in on their ranged attacks, sometimes before they are even in range. It seems to work better for a leading bear to be able to start some of his own attacks early and to be able to start moving away to the next section before the group is finished.

And really a lot of the fun of playing a bear is leading.

[Ellyidol]

It was unfortunate I had to decide that for a bear to stay in front and start aggro properly, he has to obtain range in his attack, to get in front of the ranged attacks of the rest of the group.

As a bird/mage I always wait for the bear to choose his enemies, assuming I have a leading bear, before I do damage, but many players do not do this. They start in on their ranged attacks, sometimes before they are even in range. It seems to work better for a leading bear to be able to start some of his own attacks early and to be able to start moving away to the next section before the group is finished.



Although this is purely PvE, it makes a lot of sense too. It would also further justify a need for some sort of Charge skill.

Beckon is nice, no doubt. Best skill for a bear, IMO. But that is bringing opponents closer to you (or team). Even if the bear is now in range of the mobs, the problem is still there, you can't fully lead in front because you will be travelling at the same speed of your group.

If we had Charge, we would be able to finally truly lead the group by pushing ahead instead of pulling the mobs towards us.

[Moogerfooger]

I read all 13 words :D

Now, where did you get that Charge idea from? O.o

[Ellyidol]

I read all 13 words :D

Now, where did you get that Charge idea from? O.o

I think some zeroes after 13 are invisible :p

From this warrior who owned me in another game at mid-level, in a desert town, while I was on my archer ;)

But seriously, almost every game I've come across has some sort of Charge or Rush for warriors, it's almost expected. Although Beckon is our distance closing skill, it just doesn't cut it. Too complex. You have to deal with speed of pull, range of pull, Hit/Miss, being pushed back/rooted, too much. We just need to run to our opponents. Lol.

[Moogerfooger]

I think some zeroes after 13 are invisible :p

From this warrior who owned me in another game at mid-level, in a desert town, while I was on my archer ;)

But seriously, almost every game I've come across has some sort of Charge or Rush for warriors, it's almost expected. Although Beckon is our distance closing skill, it just doesn't cut it. Too complex. You have to deal with speed of pull, range of pull, Hit/Miss, being pushed back/rooted, too much. We just need to run to our opponents. Lol.

Hmmm...this warrior must have been extremely talented, dashing and let us not forget the ladies must love him :rolleyes:

On a more serious note (although not much more serious) I would agree. An offensive type move would be nice....the move from the unnamed game was very handy to have that kind of semi-ranged attack move, instead of being pure crowd control. Like ya said, Beckon is very powerful...but defensive in nature (at least in PvE).

[Survivorfan]

Love the suggestions Elly! I feel very strongly for bears too, and I think you are dead on with the skills and all! GO ELLY! lol

[Ellyidol]

Hmmm...this warrior must have been extremely talented, dashing and let us not forget the ladies must love him :rolleyes:

On a more serious note (although not much more serious) I would agree. An offensive type move would be nice....the move from the unnamed game was very handy to have that kind of semi-ranged attack move, instead of being pure crowd control. Like ya said, Beckon is very powerful...but defensive in nature (at least in PvE).

"the ladies must love him", I don't know about that.. I've gotten a few messages from damsels in distress looking for this knight in shining armour, but I doubt they're really damsels ;)

Seriously, you're right, Beckon does seem to be defensive. Even in the unnamed game, the Charge skill did not provide an automatic win for a warrior, just a better fighting chance if used well.


Love the suggestions Elly! I feel very strongly for bears too, and I think you are dead on with the skills and all! GO ELLY! lol

Thank you! Always good to know a fellow bear enthusiast. These are just suggestions, however, but hopefully the point gets across :)

Edit : Weird, if I copy a quote it comes off in a different font 0.0

[Elyseon]

I use a Dex bear so several of these problems I don't suffer from, although I have seen taunt fail many times. From my experience I see beckon as a bear's key skill, and none of the other race really have key skills. But as long as bears are supposed to be close range (pure), they need to have a rooting skill like the other two

[Ellyidol]

I use a Dex bear so several of these problems I don't suffer from, although I have seen taunt fail many times. From my experience I see beckon as a bear's key skill, and none of the other race really have key skills. But as long as bears are supposed to be close range (pure), they need to have a rooting skill like the other two

Do you mean in PvE? Or PvP?

These problems don't exist for dex bears in PvP because you either kill or be killed. They only truly shine when you have a primary "tank", to be more exact, a meat-shield in front of you. Custom set dex bears with Rage on = win as long as they live.

The only existing issue for dex bears in PvP is the range, which is actually more exaggerated because of how soft dex bears can be. One of the main reasons why I reverted back to being a pure melee bear was exactly this. Dex bears don't have a chance against good birds/mages. With luck, your Beckon + Stomp crits, and you dodge their attacks, you win. If both characters crit, you'd be dead before your Beckon pulls him to you.


But for PvE, oh yes, dex bears are lovely :)

[Ellyidol]

After some testing, added some sections to the OP.

These problems are more noticeable as you progress to end-game. I played at 15 PvP (though this doesn't really count, all classes don't have all their skills yet), 25 PvP, 35 PvP, then jumped to end-game PvP, and played with two mindsets,

1. I am not looking for said problems, everything was balanced.

2. I am looking for the problems, putting myself in the said situations to find a way out.

In a nutshell, I could not help but think of the four problems no matter what mindset I was in. I'll try to take photos on situations that showcase the problems, such as important skills being on cooldown (Beckon, Stomp) but being frozen/rooted in place with nothing to do but stand there.
2. Okay, don't improve bear damage, just make us real tanks. Not a "tank" that relies on dodge to live, neither a "tank" that has to kite to survive. A real tank that's meant to dive in and get down and dirty in the front lines.

[Barrington]

bears need more area of effect attacks, right now theres only really 2; beckon and stomp (hellscream is a debuff)

i suggest get rid of that health regen one and one of the slash attacks
and replace them with charge and an attack where you spin around - tornado slice maybe

[Barrington]

think of the combos then! EPIC!!!

charge into a crowd tornado slice, beckon then stomp!

It would look mad if you were soloing

[simnar_]

i like it bravo here have a :banana:

[razerfingers]

I like my bear but i agree and im kinda a little frustrated i wanted full str for best skill workage but if i go full str my fury set hit % is like 66 well i cant be a tank with 66 hit % you will miss every pull taunt and so on so i think they messed up on the bear

[Barrington]

am i the only one that has a duel spec int str bear lol
their stats are quite nice (%110 hit 21 crit 738 health 17 h/ps 10 m/ps)

sorry to hear about your laptop simnar

[simnar_]

am i the only one that has a duel spec int str bear lol
their stats are quite nice (0 hit 21 crit 738 health 17 h/ps 10 m/ps)

sorry to hear about your laptop simnar i realy need that corner

[AdinoEznite]

nice thread first of all

now just to clarify my opinions are shortsighted since i dont have a character over lvl 31
however one thing that struck me from the beginning of the game was what the main stats (str, dex, int) increase

you would think that any melee would have a much greater hit chance than a ranged weapon thus i think str should increase hit % the most and dex should increase hit% the least (i think its the other way around right now, correct me if im wrong)

from my limited experience, bears have terrible hit % when they should be the highest since they are meant to be a melee character

i think this change would resolve a lot of problems, even in low lvl pvp since full dex bears would no longer be viable due to a crappy hit% and most would be forced to go dual build (with mostly str) or full str and then birds and mages might have a chance to actually kite like they are supposed to

because atm the only thing ive seen a low lvl dex bear have problems with in pvp is a well played pally due to some crazy high heals

[Dethwarior]

I agree with every thing. In PvP beckon gives a confuse bonus and it pulls the enemy toward u.(if u hav 6 becon stomp and rage the its nearly a 1 hit against mage with 400 hp) bird it just confuses it enough to do damage and the finish it off with a high damage weapon. So bears don't always hav the short end of the stick.(if u play ur cards right)

[Lesrider]

Well, they also took dodge away from Dex and gave it to Str, which makes absolutely no sense at all.

[drewcapu]

you would think that any melee would have a much greater hit chance than a ranged weapon thus i think str should increase hit % the most and dex should increase hit% the least (i think its the other way around right now, correct me if im wrong)

from my limited experience, bears have terrible hit % when they should be the highest since they are meant to be a melee character



This is the one thing that I never understood about bears. You're up close and personal. You should have the inate ability to hit something with a sword, right? I mean, if you're strong enough it's not like you have a problem swinging that thing around.

I guess it would be a different story if you were Mr. Magoo the Barbarian.

[noobmigo]

The problem is that with that logical explanation, this is still a fantasy game. :o

Instead of increasing hit%, and AOE attacks (You guys have more than avians, lol) perhaps an upgraded sort of Iron Blood that decreases damage for a short while. The short while would be all that you need, as that's how long PvP matches at end game usually last. A LOT of damage, not some measly 30 armor from Iron Blood.

Like, a self buff/summon armor that absorbs about 150 damage, or maybe reduces damage done to you by about 60 more. That would be great, it would be helpful, I'm not sure it would help very much though. :/

[Pman3255]

You have a very valid point. I agree with your suggestions. Very thought out suggestion nicely done.

[Lysdexic]

Holding Aggro and a Charge (being able to run faster, much like the pot capability) would level the field quite well without any overbalance. I'm definitely all for that.

[Ellyidol]

bears need more area of effect attacks, right now theres only really 2; beckon and stomp (hellscream is a debuff)

i suggest get rid of that health regen one and one of the slash attacks
and replace them with charge and an attack where you spin around - tornado slice maybe

As lovely as that sounds, I don't think just giving bears more AoE attacks would solve the problems either.

At the moment, BS is already easy enough to clear with a bear + bird/mage, just timing of combos and skills. I can't imagine how easy it'd be to solo for a bear given another AoE skill :p


am i the only one that has a duel spec int str bear lol
their stats are quite nice (%110 hit 21 crit 738 health 17 h/ps 10 m/ps)

sorry to hear about your laptop simnar

What's your gear? Sounds like the gear has good stats.


nice thread first of all

now just to clarify my opinions are shortsighted since i dont have a character over lvl 31
however one thing that struck me from the beginning of the game was what the main stats (str, dex, int) increase

you would think that any melee would have a much greater hit chance than a ranged weapon thus i think str should increase hit % the most and dex should increase hit% the least (i think its the other way around right now, correct me if im wrong)

from my limited experience, bears have terrible hit % when they should be the highest since they are meant to be a melee character

i think this change would resolve a lot of problems, even in low lvl pvp since full dex bears would no longer be viable due to a crappy hit% and most would be forced to go dual build (with mostly str) or full str and then birds and mages might have a chance to actually kite like they are supposed to

because atm the only thing ive seen a low lvl dex bear have problems with in pvp is a well played pally due to some crazy high heals

Although it's possible that fixing the stat points would decrease the amount of full dex bears, I think the strongest reason why they go dex is for the range to maximize Rage.

Rage 6 is what makes a bear shine in lower-end PvP, IMO.

That said, changes shouldn't be made to cater to lower-end PvP or twinking, but only two things. PvE and end-game PvP.


I agree with every thing. In PvP beckon gives a confuse bonus and it pulls the enemy toward u.(if u hav 6 becon stomp and rage the its nearly a 1 hit against mage with 400 hp) bird it just confuses it enough to do damage and the finish it off with a high damage weapon. So bears don't always hav the short end of the stick.(if u play ur cards right)

If I'm not mistaken, and if I understood 'confuse' correctly, Beckon only has a 50% chance to stun.

So Beckon could either,

Miss entirely, no stun or pull.
Miss the pull, stuns but no pull.
Miss the sun, no stun but it pulls.
Both connect, stuns and pulls.

Very odds based don't you think? And this is just one skill.

Let's make it a perfect situation.

Beckon fully connects, that would mean your range problem is almost solved since you actually got Beckon off and pull him towards you.
What does the bird/mage do? Push you back? Root you? His skills crit and your dodge not working and pretty much kills you?

Let's say he does nothing.

He's next to you, you'd want to kill him right? Assuming you have quick fingers, you're allowed 2 skills pre-stomp to make it in time for the combo. Let's say you use Crushing Blow (reduces dodge of the target for the following skills), SMS (most damaging slash), then Stomp (combo finisher).

That's the ideal combo for a bird. But, however ideal it is, it still goes through the problems I mentioned earlier.

Range - Close to impossible that a bird/mage just lets you pull him and stands there not doing anything, most probably they will pushback/root or combo you first altogether. If they do, you are either stuck in place with only Stomp to get out of (another issue) or you are pushed back to square 1 with no Beckon to use or dead.

Hit % - Beckon hit chance, CB hit chance, SMS hit chance, Stomp hit chance. Note, chance.

Odds - Like you said, they'd have to crit. Beckon crit chance, CB crit chance, SMS crit chance, Stomp crit chance. Again, chance.

Damage - Assuming they all crit, damage isn't an issue anymore since crits already double your damage. But what if they don't? I doubt your damage will be enough to kill a bird or clear the mana shield off a mage.


This is the one thing that I never understood about bears. You're up close and personal. You should have the inate ability to hit something with a sword, right? I mean, if you're strong enough it's not like you have a problem swinging that thing around.

I guess it would be a different story if you were Mr. Magoo the Barbarian.

Let's say they do fix the Hit % issue. I still think that bears lack what all warriors are supposed to have - damage.

Like you said, if they're strong enough to carry that huge Royal Sewer Battle Hammer, how are they not strong enough to have the most damage in the game?


The problem is that with that logical explanation, this is still a fantasy game. :o

Instead of increasing hit%, and AOE attacks (You guys have more than avians, lol) perhaps an upgraded sort of Iron Blood that decreases damage for a short while. The short while would be all that you need, as that's how long PvP matches at end game usually last. A LOT of damage, not some measly 30 armor from Iron Blood.

Like, a self buff/summon armor that absorbs about 150 damage, or maybe reduces damage done to you by about 60 more. That would be great, it would be helpful, I'm not sure it would help very much though. :/

I agree, instead of giving us better or more offensive capabilities, let us tank for real.

I still stand by my thought that Charge would do us so much good. It doesn't even need damage within itself, maybe a short stun. If we can charge, we can fully utilize all our skills. Slashes, debuffs, and actually use normal attack.

Armour is almost non-significant in terms of being tanks. Although it reduces damage, reducing double damage from crits doesn't really cut it. Also, armour doesn't negate any sort of root/freeze no matter how high your armour is or how low the root/freeze is. Only dodge fully makes you survive.

[noobmigo]

I agree, Charge would be a wonderful addition to any bear, but how is that applicable to PvE?
I think that some kind of ranged strength weapon (I mean come on, how about reappearing spears?) would/should be in development.
If it's just about breaking out of the freeze/root, I'd suggest some kind of Passive Skill, (Finally Passives) that would usher in a new skill era, that involves passives. It would be like "Warm Aura", thus melting any freeze and burning any root.

[Ellyidol]

I agree, Charge would be a wonderful addition to any bear, but how is that applicable to PvE?
I think that some kind of ranged strength weapon (I mean come on, how about reappearing spears?) would/should be in development.
If it's just about breaking out of the freeze/root, I'd suggest some kind of Passive Skill, (Finally Passives) that would usher in a new skill era, that involves passives. It would be like "Warm Aura", thus melting any freeze and burning any root.

I think there was a short discussion on page 2 about Charge for PvE, it'd allow bears to actually charge ahead and be in front of the group instead of pulling the mobs towards the group.

It'd also help by allowing bears to stay in front in general, IMO. As easy as sounds to just gather mobs, then leave for the group to kill, it isn't always as easy as it seems. Not to mention if you have a really good and quick group of mages/birds, bears tend to fall behind and end up just doing one Beckon, that's it - in BS at least.

The longest ranged melee weapon is the lance/harpoon of some sort right? I could be wrong, never paid much attention to the normal attack range of melee weapons :p 3 or 4m?

And yeah, passives would be awesome. It'd require so much rebalancing though..

[noobmigo]

I think there was a short discussion on page 2 about Charge for PvE, it'd allow bears to actually charge ahead and be in front of the group instead of pulling the mobs towards the group.

It'd also help by allowing bears to stay in front in general, IMO. As easy as sounds to just gather mobs, then leave for the group to kill, it isn't always as easy as it seems. Not to mention if you have a really good and quick group of mages/birds, bears tend to fall behind and end up just doing one Beckon, that's it - in BS at least.

The longest ranged melee weapon is the lance/harpoon of some sort right? I could be wrong, never paid much attention to the normal attack range of melee weapons :p 3 or 4m?

And yeah, passives would be awesome. It'd require so much rebalancing though..

Ranged Strength Weapons
I mean throwable spears. Awwwesome!

Charge
I guess that is a good application to PvE. Charge skill, yay!

Passives
Yes, major rebalancing. Good for the game, we need balance. I can just imagine the mass number of birds leaving because they enjoyed so much time being spoiled in PvP and it's ALL OVER! I hate that. This would definitely allow "Skill Trees" of some imaginative sort, as it could offer you a choice of whether to put them into defensive passives or offensives.

[Ellyidol]

Ranged Strength Weapons
I mean throwable spears. Awwwesome!

Charge
I guess that is a good application to PvE. Charge skill, yay!

Passives
Yes, major rebalancing. Good for the game, we need balance. I can just imagine the mass number of birds leaving because they enjoyed so much time being spoiled in PvP and it's ALL OVER! I hate that. This would definitely allow "Skill Trees" of some imaginative sort, as it could offer you a choice of whether to put them into defensive passives or offensives.

Haha, that'd be very interesting! Ranged Strength Weapons. So much stronger talons, slower attack speeds but more damage and range?

I agree, we need balance. Especially after GCD. The previous rebalancing of gear/stats/skills definitely gave the game more headroom, but it seems almost used up after just one campaign. With the likes of the Custom set compounded with the +60 crit of a mage, that's easily over 100% crit rate, which I thought was the reason for the previous rebalancing in the first place. If I remember correctly, bird dodge + void talon set gave 90+ dodge rate which was one of the reasons for the rebalance. IMO, 100+ crit is also as good a reason to call for another rebalance. Just an isolated case to use as an example here, not saying that it's the only reason for the imbalance.

[noobmigo]

Haha, that'd be very interesting! Ranged Strength Weapons. So much stronger talons, slower attack speeds but more damage and range?

I agree, we need balance. Especially after GCD. The previous rebalancing of gear/stats/skills definitely gave the game more headroom, but it seems almost used up after just one campaign. With the likes of the Custom set compounded with the +60 crit of a mage, that's easily over 100% crit rate, which I thought was the reason for the previous rebalancing in the first place. If I remember correctly, bird dodge + void talon set gave 90+ dodge rate which was one of the reasons for the rebalance. IMO, 100+ crit is also as good a reason to call for another rebalance.

Lol yes! I'd think maybe 3-4 more meters, as a spear is longer than a talon, definitely slower attack speeds, perhaps "reload/respawn" time.

I really didn't get GCD at all. Didn't help AT ALL. IMO. And it seems they keep on reducing the GCD times every 2 days. lol. It's too short now.

[Ellyidol]

Lol yes! I'd think maybe 3-4 more meters, as a spear is longer than a talon, definitely slower attack speeds, perhaps "reload/respawn" time.

I really didn't get GCD at all. Didn't help AT ALL. IMO. And it seems they keep on reducing the GCD times every 2 days. lol. It's too short now.

Interestingly could work. There has to be a catch to it though, or all bears would start using that 1H throwing spear instead of 1H swords :p

Hmm. Although it's short, I feel it's helped. I don't think the only purpose of GCD was to slow down the uber fast game play, but to deal with the device difference problem.

IMO, GCD is just nice at where it is now. Not too slow that it puts slow players and fast players at par, but it successfully removes the multi-touch issue from device differences before :)

[Elyseon]

I brought up ranged strength weapons a long time ago but everybody said it would make them overpowered...(mostly mages and birds saying this)
But I had thought javelins(throwing spears), and throwing axes

[Ellyidol]

I brought up ranged strength weapons a long time ago but everybody said it would make them overpowered...(mostly mages and birds saying this)
But I had thought javelins(throwing spears), and throwing axes

Actually, if I think about it, ranged strength weapons would be interesting and could work on paper, but it would really seem more like a stronger talon.

Even bears with talons have the same problem as I stated, so I would much rather prefer just stronger melee weapons, but with the fixes elsewhere.

[noobmigo]

Interestingly could work. There has to be a catch to it though, or all bears would start using that 1H throwing spear instead of 1H swords :p

Hmm. Although it's short, I feel it's helped. I don't think the only purpose of GCD was to slow down the uber fast game play, but to deal with the device difference problem.

IMO, GCD is just nice at where it is now. Not too slow that it puts slow players and fast players at par, but it successfully removes the multi-touch issue from device differences before :)

Less damage than a sword, ofc. Or maybe more damage, less DPS.

[Tvis]

Give warriors a 2X permanent walking speed and call it good ;D

[noobmigo]

Give warriors a 2X permanent walking speed and call it good ;D

That would OP twinks at 20 even more. I'd definitely like an END GAME skill, perhaps gained at 39, when bears start feeling the effects.

[Ellyidol]

Give warriors a 2X permanent walking speed and call it good ;D

Might help remedy the problems, but I dont think it'll solve them outright :p

Like migo said, although balance shouldn't prioritize twinking pvp/pve before end game, it'd make the lower level bears too OP.

[Otukura]

Aggro - Give Taunt a 100% success rate, a fixed amount of time aggro'd, and an uninterruptile Taunted/Aggro'd status.

What do you think of in addition to that, give bears a 10/20/30..60% armor boost(play with the numbers) for 1.5/2..-4 seconds(again, play with the numbers). It would give bears more of an incentive to taunt. Reason I had the % was because of what we've seen with rage -- bears dominate low end with that.

[Ellyidol]

What do you think of in addition to that, give bears a 10/20/30..60% armor boost(play with the numbers) for 1.5/2..-4 seconds(again, play with the numbers). It would give bears more of an incentive to taunt. Reason I had the % was because of what we've seen with rage -- bears dominate low end with that.

That could work, I've actually also had a thought about bears being armour based instead of dodge too.

Change Evade to a damage reduction %, change Taunt to an armour boost, and tweak Iron Blood. I just find it very unconventional how tanks rely on dodge (chance) to actually tank. Different is okay, but an odds reliant tank to successfully tank just doesn't seem right.

[Barrington]

@ellyidol im using the 1h rift set right now

[WhoIsThis]

I think that a charge skill might be too big of a rebalance. How about the following instead?: No matter how low your hit% as a bear and how high the target's dodge %, beckon never misses. Currently, I think that the biggest weakness melee has over ranged is that if beckon misses, the bear is in serious trouble, especially against birds who can basically root and finish the bear off pretty fast. In PvE, having a never miss beckon gives an incentive again to be pure strength.

I agree with the other suggestions. Taunt needs a bit of a rework to make it effective for bears to tank. Taunt should give a brief moment in PvE where everyone has to fire on the tank. (This would not be advisable in PvP because in group fights, unless bears become OP, they would die pretty fast from 3-4 people hitting the bear at once). Agree with the Hell Scream becoming the skill to loosen up roots and freezes.

Weapons in particular need a buff. The Gurgox Hammer should not be the most potent weapon by damage per hit - the 2h level 55 weapons need a buff to be worth wearing.

Edit:
I think that fundamentally, the devs are trying to make bears into real tanks and not damage dealers, so perhaps the suggestions should be geared in that direction. Not too sure about evade being a damage reduction % though. It seems that evade and taunt would become just a variation of iron blood. Instead, perhaps a buff on iron blood would do?

[Air]

When you asked for a Charging skill >.<, I was thinking in my head if they will make a mini Dash for bears :)
Have not play much with a bear character, so no opinions.
Good long thread though I had fun reading it.

[Ellyidol]

@ellyidol im using the 1h rift set right now

Ah yes, the 1H Rift Set. Still my favourite set in the game in terms of suitability for the bear.


I think that a charge skill might be too big of a rebalance. How about the following instead?: No matter how low your hit% as a bear and how high the target's dodge %, beckon never misses. Currently, I think that the biggest weakness melee has over ranged is that if beckon misses, the bear is in serious trouble, especially against birds who can basically root and finish the bear off pretty fast. In PvE, having a never miss beckon gives an incentive again to be pure strength.

I agree with the other suggestions. Taunt needs a bit of a rework to make it effective for bears to tank. Taunt should give a brief moment in PvE where everyone has to fire on the tank. (This would not be advisable in PvP because in group fights, unless bears become OP, they would die pretty fast from 3-4 people hitting the bear at once). Agree with the Hell Scream becoming the skill to loosen up roots and freezes.

Weapons in particular need a buff. The Gurgox Hammer should not be the most potent weapon by damage per hit - the 2h level 55 weapons need a buff to be worth wearing.

Edit:
I think that fundamentally, the devs are trying to make bears into real tanks and not damage dealers, so perhaps the suggestions should be geared in that direction. Not too sure about evade being a damage reduction % though. It seems that evade and taunt would become just a variation of iron blood. Instead, perhaps a buff on iron blood would do?

I think that was how Beckon was before, 100% Hit rate. Although it could work, an always successful Beckon doesn't do as much compared to a better Hit % fix though, IMO. Although a Beckon brings them closer, and bears revert to full str with the current gear sets (lets use Fury/Fortified set), their hit would still be roughly 66%. With them being close, majority of the rest of the skills wouldn't connect either.

But with my current setup now of 96% Hit and an always successful Beckon, it could work. If that was the case, I wouldn't mind having no change to damage at all but being more tanky instead. Defensive capabilities > any type of offensive capabilities for bears, IMO.

And yeah, the reason why I thought about Evade and Taunt being more armour based was to make the bear more consistent instead of chance (dodge) reliant. IMO, the bear or tank should be the most consistent character in the game, high armour which constantly makes him a tank and high damage which constantly makes him a warrior.

I agree, if devs are planning to go down the defensive path, I hope they make us real tanks.

[noobmigo]

Ah yes, the 1H Rift Set. Still my favourite set in the game in terms of suitability for the bear.





But with my current setup now of 96% Hit and an always successful Beckon, it could work. If that was the case, I wouldn't mind having no change to damage at all but being more tanky instead. Defensive capabilities > any type of offensive capabilities for bears, IMO.

And yeah, the reason why I thought about Evade and Taunt being more armour based was to make the bear more consistent instead of chance (dodge) reliant. IMO, the bear or tank should be the most consistent character in the game, high armour which constantly makes him a tank and high damage which constantly makes him a warrior.

I agree, if devs are planning to go down the defensive path, I hope they make us real tanks.

Personally, I like Hate set better. I use it for my birdy, horrid damage, but I never die anymore.

High Armour and High Damage = OP, JTLYK. :p



Again, if you put passives into the equation, you could choose to be a well rounded tank, a pure tank, or a bearsurker.

However, there should for no reason, EVER be ANY High Armour AND High Damage Classes in ANY game.

I've always been a Passive Skill guy, any game. :( Perhaps having one ENORMOUS AoE Debuff would make it a lot easier?

[Ellyidol]

Personally, I like Hate set better. I use it for my birdy, horrid damage, but I never die anymore.

High Armour and High Damage = OP, JTLYK. :p



Again, if you put passives into the equation, you could choose to be a well rounded tank, a pure tank, or a bearsurker.

However, there should for no reason, EVER be ANY High Armour AND High Damage Classes in ANY game.

I've always been a Passive Skill guy, any game. :( Perhaps having one ENORMOUS AoE Debuff would make it a lot easier?

Oh yeah, Hate set is pretty good too! I just didn't get to use it much after the entire Shadow Cave fiasco.

High armor and high damage in the expense of being melee though.. IMO, that would be the trade-off. Not as high that it makes us best DPS, but maybe a skill or two that acts like a melee version of a nuke. A high mana slash skill maybe?

And I agree, Passives would make the game so much more diverse, but I think that'd also mean a complete rebalance towards the game. PvP and PvE, will dread how long that'll take :p

[Kalielle]

Speaking of possible new attacks, how about a 360 degree spin-around move that dealt damage to all nearby enemies? So basically a short range aoe attack, but one that doesn't push enemies away like the stomp.

It would fit with the idea of bears being powerful sword-wielders, and stay true to their original role as melee (not ranged) fighters.

[Whirlzap]

A bit crazy on that idea^
But do remember mages survive on mana.
A simple beckon and stomp wipes out their mana completly.
The real issue I see is that mages and birds can attack when they are stunned.

[CrimsonTider]

If my memory serves me correctly, Conan, The Beastmaster, and King Leonidus (sp?) could all throw their swords during battle. :) Why can't one of the slashes be removed for a throwing skill?

[Ellyidol]

A bit crazy on that idea^
But do remember mages survive on mana.
A simple beckon and stomp wipes out their mana completly.
The real issue I see is that mages and birds can attack when they are stunned.

Any decent mage wouldn't be out of mana with one Beckon Stomp combo.

If he's an int, chances are the shield would still be up with mana left, not to mention the stomp pushing them away to regen mana again.

If he's dex, he wouldn't need mana to kill the bear by the time we get a Beckon Stomp in, because they'd have casted Drain, Frost, and Firestorm. All of which probably crit because of dex gear.

Dodge and crit are the only ways a bear can easily kill a mage. A bear dodges the attacks and crits his attacks. Both odds.

Armor is almost useless against a mage since, at minimum, all mages have a 60% Crit rate.

Of course, I'm only talking about a str/dex melee bear here. A dex bear is even more odds reliant than a melee bear.


If my memory serves me correctly, Conan, The Beastmaster, and King Leonidus (sp?) could all throw their swords during battle. :) Why can't one of the slashes be removed for a throwing skill?

As interesting as a ranged skill sounds, IMO, a Charge to make our melee skills more useful would work better.

Not shooting the idea down at all, implementing both would actually be really good, if I were to choose one skill to implement though, it'd be a charge :)

[WhoIsThis]

Any decent mage wouldn't be out of mana with one Beckon Stomp combo.

If he's an int, chances are the shield would still be up with mana left, not to mention the stomp pushing them away to regen mana again.

If he's dex, he wouldn't need mana to kill the bear by the time we get a Beckon Stomp in, because they'd have casted Drain, Frost, and Firestorm. All of which probably crit because of dex gear.



Gonna have to disagree with you on this one.

From experience, a bear that does a smash combo can deplete a mage's mana shield in that one combo. Shield down and a mage is dead one smash combo (sometimes happens in a group fight).

It's one of the reasons why I do not wear enchanted against bears. If your mana shield is depleted (which one smash combo can and sometimes does do), 19 M/S is not enough. Need at least 30 M/S. I think you may have overexaggerated the weakness of bears here. Bears can (and sometimes do) win against int mages and especially dex mages. Strength bears usually do not die in one volley (although it can happen, but all of your hits have to crit and be at the upper end of the damage range), which means that you do need mana for a second volley. Dex bears usually do die in one volley, but they also do more damage. In most cases though, against a mage, most bears should get out their strength gear.

[Conradin]

Gonna have to disagree with you on this one.

From experience, a bear that does a smash combo can deplete a mage's mana shield in that one combo. Shield down and a mage is dead one smash combo (sometimes happens in a group fight).

It's one of the reasons why I do not wear enchanted against bears. If your mana shield is depleted (which one smash combo can and sometimes does do), 19 M/S is not enough. Need at least 30 M/S. I think you may have overexaggerated the weakness of bears here. Bears can (and sometimes do) win against int mages and especially dex mages. Bears usually do not die in one volley (although it can happen, but all of your hits have to crit and be at the upper end of the damage range), which means that you do need mana for a second volley.

If i get close enough for a bear combo- its a fairish figt in pvp for me. They are dead if they get pulled then stomped near enough for me to slash thier brains out. However, if my beckon misses, or they kill me before im in range, or i stomp them out of range of my slashes, im a dead teddy bear.

[WhoIsThis]

If i get close enough for a bear combo- its a fairish figt in pvp for me. They are dead if they get pulled then stomped near enough for me to slash thier brains out. However, if my beckon misses, or they kill me before im in range, or i stomp them out of range of my slashes, im a dead teddy bear.

If you can nail the mage against a tree or wall, they will usually lose. Killing before you get into range usually won't happen for foritified or fury/sewer combo bears.

[Ellyidol]

Gonna have to disagree with you on this one.

From experience, a bear that does a smash combo can deplete a mage's mana shield in that one combo. Shield down and a mage is dead one smash combo (sometimes happens in a group fight).

It's one of the reasons why I do not wear enchanted against bears. If your mana shield is depleted (which one smash combo can and sometimes does do), 19 M/S is not enough. Need at least 30 M/S. I think you may have overexaggerated the weakness of bears here. Bears can (and sometimes do) win against int mages and especially dex mages. Strength bears usually do not die in one volley (although it can happen, but all of your hits have to crit and be at the upper end of the damage range), which means that you do need mana for a second volley. Dex bears usually do die in one volley, but they also do more damage. In most cases though, against a mage, most bears should get out their strength gear.

Fair point. I think the skills have to crit to fully deplete though. 600-ish mana (I think) therefore 600-ish damage via a Beckon - 2 skills - Stomp combo is very possible, but against a mage I just opt to Beckon Stomp away, that way their shield timer gets run down. If I'm lucky enough to dodge a chunk of their attacks too, if not, they can just normal attack me. Lol.

I don't know though, in my experience too, a big chunk of int mages' mana shields cannot be broken through one smash combo unless followed up quickly by your barrage of slashes, debuffs, and attacks (or against the wall). I have a different combo for mages now, but it relies on my dodge chance more than ever, not so much on crit.

And agreed, as a dex bear I could never fair well against a good mage directly. Indirectly however, easy :)


If you can nail the mage against a tree or wall, they will usually lose. Killing before you get into range usually won't happen for foritified or fury/sewer combo bears.

True, pulling a bird/mage to a wall, therefore right next to you, usually garners a win. But in reality, I wouldn't want to be wall hugging for duels all the time. Lol :p

[Zeus]

Elly, did you try crippling slash yet? I strongly advocate it. Most useful slashes of the 3, IMO.

[Haikus]

If you can nail the mage against a tree or wall, they will usually lose. Killing before you get into range usually won't happen for foritified or fury/sewer combo bears.

Though, I have not read all of this thread. Maybe, 90%.

Speaking from a birds perspective, I kite. Lol, if they beckon, I repulse, root, debuff, cruel combo. That does it, for a str bear. They have no more range to hit me, beckon was there first/only call to pull me in.

Against dex bears, you have to be amazingly quick, because there stomp combo hits, like all the time.

I usally try a root, debuff, cruel thing, because repulse does me poorly 95% of the time, because it's like there combo never misses, and insta kills me.

[Ellyidol]

Elly, did you try crippling slash yet? I strongly advocate it. Most useful slashes of the 3, IMO.

Yes I did actually! I'm still trying to build a new combo around Crippling especially.

It works really well if I see it work, I think it's just the least obvious with no pushback.

I have to admit though, I think Whirlz mentioned it earlier, targets seem to be able to attack even if they're stunned. Just an observation.

Thanks btw :)

[Zeus]

Yes I did actually! I'm still trying to build a new combo around Crippling especially.

It works really well if I see it work, I think it's just the least obvious with no pushback.

I have to admit though, I think Whirlz mentioned it earlier, targets seem to be able to attack even if they're stunned. Just an observation.

Thanks btw :)

Heh, np :).

[WhoIsThis]

Fair point. I think the skills have to crit to fully deplete though. 600-ish mana (I think) therefore 600-ish damage via a Beckon - 2 skills - Stomp combo is very possible, but against a mage I just opt to Beckon Stomp away, that way their shield timer gets run down. If I'm lucky enough to dodge a chunk of their attacks too, if not, they can just normal attack me. Lol.

I don't know though, in my experience too, a big chunk of int mages' mana shields cannot be broken through one smash combo unless followed up quickly by your barrage of slashes, debuffs, and attacks (or against the wall). I have a different combo for mages now, but it relies on my dodge chance more than ever, not so much on crit.

And agreed, as a dex bear I could never fair well against a good mage directly. Indirectly however, easy :)



True, pulling a bird/mage to a wall, therefore right next to you, usually garners a win. But in reality, I wouldn't want to be wall hugging for duels all the time. Lol :p

Actually, a mega mage pure int level 56 has 769 mana @ 38m/s, while an enchanted pure int has 812 mana @ 19m/s (both are buffed 1m/s by revive). More mana is available for mages that opt to get a mana-boosting ring. You might be surprised, but it can be depleted in one volley from a bear.

Most bears are actually a lot closer to killing the mage than you might think. Maybe this weekend, I can show you with another bear.

Luckily for most bears, duels usually occur in forest fight, where trees are plentiful and in other maps, walls are pretty frequent.

I need to do a test anyways. Does heal cure the effects of crippling? It removes the negative effects of hell scream.

Dex bear is much more effective though at facing birds, although drainers dex bears can be effective vs mage. Custom and rr dex bear isn't good vs mage though, unless you get a lot of lucky crits and your shots are at the upper end of the damage range.

[Zeus]

Actually, a mega mage pure int level 56 has 769 mana @ 38m/s, while an enchanted pure int has 812 mana @ 19m/s (both are buffed 1m/s by revive). More mana is available for mages that opt to get a mana-boosting ring. You might be surprised, but it can be depleted in one volley from a bear.

Most bears are actually a lot closer to killing the mage than you might think. Maybe this weekend, I can show you with another bear.

Luckily for most bears, duels usually occur in forest fight, where trees are plentiful and in other maps, walls are pretty frequent.

I need to do a test anyways. Does heal cure the effects of crippling? It removes the negative effects of hell scream.

Dex bear is much more effective though at facing birds, although drainers dex bears can be effective vs mage. Custom and rr dex bear isn't good vs mage though, unless you get a lot of lucky crits and your shots are at the upper end of the damage range.

Actually, Attack. I have to disagree with you on dex bears not being very effective VS elves. I remember being able to kill most elves. What I did was H/S then blind shot from bow. It wouldn't allow them to hit me. I believe blind proc is an unhealable effect as well.

[WhoIsThis]

Actually, Attack. I have to disagree with you on dex bears not being very effective VS elves. I remember being able to kill most elves. What I did was H/S then blind shot from bow. It wouldn't allow them to hit me. I believe blind proc is an unhealable effect as well.

Certainly possible. Perhaps the majority of bears I've faced don't know understand mage weaknesses.

[Ellyidol]

Certainly possible. Perhaps the majority of bears I've faced don't know understand mage weaknesses.

It's kinda funny though, how a dex drainer bear might survive more chance to survive than a str bear :p

[WhoIsThis]

Certainly possible. Perhaps the majority of bears I've faced don't know understand mage weaknesses.

It's kinda funny though, how a dex drainer bear might survive more chance to survive than a str bear :p

What's funny is that drainers here outperforms custom.

[Nightarcher]

Blah blah blah skip to the end. Lots of the stuff here has perfectly valid points, but here's my opinion:

BEARS ARE THE MOST FUN CLASS! Yes my main is a bird, but I love playing as a bear because of the range of tasks it can perform. I get tired of my archer because all he does is dish out damage, and because pure Dex is the best, you don't get the fun of customizing stats to find something that works best. Bears can tank, crowd-control, and be extremely lethal with a bow. My advice: just have fun. :D

[WhoIsThis]

Blah blah blah skip to the end. Lots of the stuff here has perfectly valid points, but here's my opinion:

BEARS ARE THE MOST FUN CLASS! Yes my main is a bird, but I love playing as a bear because of the range of tasks it can perform. I get tired of my archer because all he does is dish out damage, and because pure Dex is the best, you don't get the fun of customizing stats to find something that works best. Bears can tank, crowd-control, and be extremely lethal with a bow. My advice: just have fun. :D

What's fun is a matter of opinion.

I think though that there has been a bit too much whining though on game balance. Bears do need a bit of a buff. Beckon never missing could be one I think.

The other set of whiners are the birds that keep on complaining about dex mages. For the first time, birds are no longer the undisputed champions of end game. They have a nemesis. But dex mages aren't OP. They are weak against int mages and arguably bears as well (bears can quickly deplete their mana shield and unable to regenerate mana quickly enough to cast spells, the dex mages are overwhelmed). Int and dex mages are also completely dependent on their buffs and are incredibly weak when unbuffed.

[Ellyidol]

What's fun is a matter of opinion.

I think though that there has been a bit too much whining though on game balance. Bears do need a bit of a buff. Beckon never missing could be one I think.

The other set of whiners are the birds that keep on complaining about dex mages. For the first time, birds are no longer the undisputed champions of end game. They have a nemesis. But dex mages aren't OP. They are weak against int mages and arguably bears as well (bears can quickly deplete their mana shield and unable to regenerate mana quickly enough to cast spells, the dex mages are overwhelmed). Int and dex mages are also completely dependent on their buffs and are incredibly weak when unbuffed.

Agree, bears are fun but it's opinion-based.

Dying often isn't fun either :p

I'd think that would work, a 100% Beckon hit. I'd also think a small defensive buff would be nice, to just fully make us tanks. But we shall see by the next update, maybe they've done something to bear gear :)

[WhoIsThis]

I've become a bit reluctant to look at these kinds of threads I gotta admit.

A lot of people tend to blame game balance when they die in PvP. But coming from you, Elly, well let's just say that you've got a lot of credibility in this community. I know you're not one of those types of people.

That said, instead of advocating for so many changes, I'd limit it to 2 or 3. It's much more likely to be implemented anyways rather than a complete rebalance with a 13th ability or anything like that (in which case, if bears get "charge", they either lose a skill, or for fairness, birds and mages need another ability).

So lets say:
- Beckon never misses regardless of bear hit % and target dodge %
- Taunt is reworked to force aggro for PvE so that bears are more effective tanks
- Hell Scream rather than stomp frees bears

Well, you can make 2 or 3 different ones

The only other thing (not solely related to bears as there are pallys and warbirds) that I would advocate would be a rebalance of the level 55 2 handed weapons. The Gurgox Hammer should be inferior to the level 55 2 handed sewer weapons. The sewer 2h weapons need to be slower, hit harder, and a bit more skill damage.

[Ellyidol]

I've become a bit reluctant to look at these kinds of threads I gotta admit.

A lot of people tend to blame game balance when they die in PvP. But coming from you, Elly, well let's just say that you've got a lot of credibility in this community. I know you're not one of those types of people.

I hope so too. I've been trying for quite awhile now, different combos and setups to find ways out or around the problems, these are the main problems I find though.

I don't really want to come out as whining either, maybe more of pointing it out.

Also, I've learned to realize that Str/Dex isn't that much of a problem after all, it's more of the general PvP system for a bear.

[WhoIsThis]

Lol, I'm editing and you're reading at the same time.

I think that as imperfect as it is, the PvP system in PL is closer to becoming balanced at the level cap than it ever has been.

[Ellyidol]

Lol, I'm editing and you're reading at the same time.

I think that as imperfect as it is, the PvP system in PL is closer to becoming balanced at the level cap than it ever has been.

Haha, I just read your edits too.

I agree on the 3, 1-2 PvE changes and 2 PvP changes.

I agree too, PvP balance now has been better ever since rebalance and GCD.

So yeah, now that the content update is coming, we shall wait for that too :)

I'm excited, since they're releasing 2 campaigns. I'd very much like to see one campaign have a fully defensive set, while the other a full berserk set. Or mixed :)

[WhoIsThis]

Oh and speaking of taunt, I don't advocate for bears taunting in PvP to force all players to fire on the bear. In a group fight with 3-5 enemies, unless bears are made so durable that they become OP, 3-5 enemies concentrating fire on the bear is going to be the end of that bear.

I'm guessing that even with the new content, the relative standings of the classes and builds will remain similar.

The real question is the new 60 gear - will it be like sewer gear, very specialized, or will it be like more powerful versions of void, rift, and cosmos (along with sentinel, hate, and shadow) with evenly spread out skills?

[Ellyidol]

Oh and speaking of taunt, I don't advocate for bears taunting in PvP to force all players to fire on the bear. In a group fight with 3-5 enemies, unless bears are made so durable that they become OP, 3-5 enemies concentrating fire on the bear is going to be the end of that bear.

I'm guessing that even with the new content, the relative standings of the classes and builds will remain similar.

The real question is the new 60 gear - will it be like sewer gear, very specialized, or will it be like more powerful versions of void, rift, and cosmos (along with sentinel, hate, and shadow) with evenly spread out skills?

Neither do I, I don't want to Taunt and get insta-killed! Lol :)

With two campaigns, I'm thinking that it'd give them a chance to make two very specialized sets. Just a guess. :D

[WhoIsThis]

By specialized, take for example, Royal Sewer. Apart from perhaps the big hammer, which will be replaced by most bears with a fury fighter sword and shield, the Royal Sewer pieces are clearly a very tanky set. Boosts to 4 stats: strength (which all strength gear does), health regen, dodge, and armour. Compare this to a non-specialized set like rift or hate, which boost quite a few things more, but not nearly as much in total. The only "diverse" set appears to be fury fighter, which is well, a set made for pallies. That's interesting though, and I've never thought of it. 2 campaigns, 2 different types of sets. But then again, there are many sets already in the Sewers, intended for very different purposes. I suppose that you mean different pink sets. Well, lets not take this thread too far off topic.

Rereading your OP, I think you're advocating something very similar to my 3 suggestions; the only difference is that you want crippling replaced by "charge". On that note, what incentive is there to add more points to "charge"? Does it make you charge faster?

[Ellyidol]

By specialized, take for example, Royal Sewer. Apart from perhaps the big hammer, which will be replaced by most bears with a fury fighter sword and shield, the Royal Sewer pieces are clearly a very tanky set. Boosts to 4 stats: strength (which all strength gear does), health regen, dodge, and armour. Compare this to a non-specialized set like rift or hate, which boost quite a few things more, but not nearly as much in total. The only "diverse" set appears to be fury fighter, which is well, a set made for pallies. That's interesting though, and I've never thought of it. 2 campaigns, 2 different types of sets. But then again, there are many sets already in the Sewers, intended for very different purposes. I suppose that you mean different pink sets. Well, lets not take this thread too far off topic.

Rereading your OP, I think you're advocating something very similar to my 3 suggestions; the only difference is that you want crippling replaced by "charge". On that note, what incentive is there to add more points to "charge"? Does it make you charge faster?

Lastly on off topic too, yes I mean pink sets. Actually, there might be 3 sets. Campaign A, B, and crafted sets. Maybe A for tanky set, B for berserk set, crafting set is a mix like rift? Maybe :D

The "Charge" skill doesn't really need to be implemented. It just seems like the best solution to solve that range problem, assuming Beckon still isn't a 100% Hit.

If I think about it, I don't think both Charge + Beckon would be a good idea, too OP IMO, and too jedi like. Lol.

Your 3 suggestions would make the most sense, 100% Beckon, Taunt reworked, and Hell Scream for break-free. I fear that anything too drastic a change would call for OP from the community too.

[WhoIsThis]

Agreed. The community generally doesn't like ultra-drastic changes. You might want to edit your original post's suggestions in that case.

I do agree that if beckon has a 100% hit, well charge is not needed. I can imagine a situation where in PvP, a bear beckons, and a bird repulses then roots, but if hell scream rather than stomp is the break free, well, at least the bear hasn't expended one of their main attacks. Also, depending on the distance that the bird repulsed (probably not that far if they were able to repulse AND root; if repulse pushes the bear far, well the bear can take advantage of their health regen and the bird won't be able to root), the bird might get debuffed by the Hell Scream anyways.

[Ellyidol]

Agreed. The community generally doesn't like ultra-drastic changes. You might want to edit your original post's suggestions in that case.

I do agree that if beckon has a 100% hit, well charge is not needed. I can imagine a situation where in PvP, a bear beckons, and a bird repulses then roots, but if hell scream rather than stomp is the break free, well, at least the bear hasn't expended one of their main attacks.

Agree.

I'll add in a section in the OP, just to show that reinforce that it's opinion based :)

Thanks Attack!

[WhoIsThis]

The charge suggestion is still present. Otherwise, lets hope that the devs take a look at this.

If and when these ideas are implemented, I think that we may be coming to a point in PL where all 3 classes getting close to be reasonably well balanced.

Thoughts - it will make pure strength a viable option:

1. With beckon now having a 100% hit chance, pure strength bears are now a more viable build for tanking.

2. Compounding this, the fact that taunt would be reworked means that there is now an incentive for choosing pure strength bear over a dual spec bear, particularly if the new levels prove difficult. Bears will also be much more valuable in a team if the new levels do prove difficult.

3. If there are pinks that boost hit % a bit for the new gear (I knew we weren't supposed to talk about the new gear, but this is worth considering), again pure strength may work.

4. For PvP, because the difference in skill damage between strength and dex is negligible, pure strength may actually prove superior under many situations. Whether it is enough to justify losing dual spec is open to debate and well, we will see.

5. Many bears have wanted to be well, pure strength, but choose str/dex for practical purposes. It's been said that pure dex works for bird, pure int works for mages, but for bears ... pure strength in its current form doesn't work as well.

Edit:
Now that I think about it, this will make the 3 classes as close to being balanced as we can realistically hope for for both PvE and PvP.

[WowThisGuy]

I knew everything you said from the first day I played pl. Games that let you cmz your stats have their drawbacks..very well said tho

[Ellyidol]

The charge suggestion is still present. Otherwise, lets hope that the devs take a look at this.

If and when these ideas are implemented, I think that we may be coming to a point in PL where all 3 classes getting close to be reasonably well balanced.

Thoughts - it will make pure strength a viable option:

1. With beckon now having a 100% hit chance, pure strength bears are now a more viable build for tanking.

2. Compounding this, the fact that taunt would be reworked means that there is now an incentive for choosing pure strength bear over a dual spec bear, particularly if the new levels prove difficult. Bears will also be much more valuable in a team if the new levels do prove difficult.

3. If there are pinks that boost hit % a bit for the new gear (I knew we weren't supposed to talk about the new gear, but this is worth considering), again pure strength may work.

4. For PvP, because the difference in skill damage between strength and dex is negligible, pure strength may actually prove superior under many situations. Whether it is enough to justify losing dual spec is open to debate and well, we will see.

5. Many bears have wanted to be well, pure strength, but choose str/dex for practical purposes. It's been said that pure dex works for bird, pure int works for mages, but for bears ... pure strength in its current form doesn't work as well.

Edit:
Now that I think about it, this will make the 3 classes as close to being balanced as we can realistically hope for for both PvE and PvP.

After thinking about it, even if Beckon has 100% hit rate, but the rest of the skills don't, I would probably still be Str/Dex.

The main reason for my dex is Hit % anyway, the issue with Beckon is it is a bear's essential range skill only.

In that case, I don't think stats would be the problem anymore until they decide to give bears a huge boost to Hit % from str.

More survivability maybe?

[WhoIsThis]

At the very least, pure strength won't be as well, terrible as before at least for a pure tank style build.

Equipment will play a big factor. Imagine a set of equipment that boosts hit%, crit %, and damage. For balance, lets say that it has low mana regen (say 2 m/s; 8 m/s with sword and shield; plenty for a bear, but not good enough for a mage or a bird).

We will have to withhold judgement until the new dungeons and equipment come out.

[Ellyidol]

At the very least, pure strength won't be as well, terrible as before at least for a pure tank style build.

Equipment will play a big factor. Imagine a set of equipment that boosts hit%, crit %, and damage. For balance, lets say that it has low mana regen (say 2 m/s; 8 m/s with sword and shield; plenty for a bear, but not good enough for a mage or a bird).

We will have to withhold judgement until the new dungeons and equipment oome out.

True on both points.

At this point, I think the best thing to do before discussion on change is wait for the new equipment. Who knows really how the gear turns out. :)

[WhoIsThis]

And of course, all of this assumes that your recommendations are carried out.

[Ellyidol]

And of course, all of this assumes that your recommendations are carried out.

Doubt it, will be satisfied if it helps voice out the concerns though :)

[SUPAPRODIGY]

I think its what you really like whats best for you :rolleyes:

[Ellyidol]

Bumping this for further discussion and attention.

I think the Slashes need work. Not damage or effect, just the general slash ability. Although I know that using your skills in their correct range is very much reliant on player skill, I suggest making the "usable" slash distance shorter.

Currently, our slashes are 3m and 4m in range, 2x 4m and 1x 3m. We can use them anywhere, any range, but are only single target.

I suggest lowering the distance of being able to use the slashes from any range to a specific close-range. Thoughts?

[CrimsonTider]

After a few weeks to think this over, read the discussions, and look at different builds in-game, my conclusion is simple:

Raise hit% and damage through gear.

Most bears in-game do not complain about anything but hit% and damage (or the lack there of). This is why we see so many dual specs. I still like the idea of swapping one skill out for some kind of ranged attack or a "charge" attack, but any changes don't mean squat without the ability to consistently land them. Even if we changed beckon to 100% land, stomp is still reliant upon hit% and means there still lies a chance of landing your combo only 50% of the time. A revamped version of the Hate set would make me happy. This set had a little of everything (although could have used a little more armor.) They came close with the Fortified Gemstone Sword set, however, the hit% and dodge take away from decent crit, and good damage and armor.

Just my two cents worth but I think the effectiveness of the numbers leads to more effective tanking.

.....and I'm spent! :)

[Ellyidol]

Raise hit% and damage through gear.

Most bears in-game do not complain about anything but hit% and damage (or the lack there of). This is why we see so many dual specs. I still like the idea of swapping one skill out for some kind of ranged attack or a "charge" attack, but any changes don't mean squat without the ability to consistently land them. Even if we changed beckon to 100% land, stomp is still reliant upon hit% and means there still lies a chance of landing your combo only 50% of the time. A revamped version of the Hate set would make me happy. This set had a little of everything (although could have used a little more armor.) They came close with the Fortified Gemstone Sword set, however, the hit% and dodge take away from decent crit, and good damage and armor.

Just my two cents worth but I think the effectiveness of the numbers leads to more effective tanking.

.....and I'm spent! :)

+1.

That, or do the other end of the spectrum, make us more of tanks!

I was testing the other day, a bird with a cyber/void set just using Blinding Shot on me brings my Hit % down to 68. With just his cyber/void gear and evade buff on, he would dodge my beckon 2 times out of 3. Lol. Cyber/void versus a fort set.

[Ellyidol]

I just found why bears have a harder time against birds most especially.

I knew Blinding Shot had a 25-30% Hit debuff, 25 at 5 and 30% at 6, but I noticed my Hit % drop way more than that against a bird.

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo96/bryantioliu/17779b0c.jpg

This happened within a couple of seconds. I asked a bird to keep normal attack on me while spamming Blinding Shot.

I have a 93% Hit rate, yes, that's a -80% Hit debuff. 30 from Blinding Shot, 50 from 2x Blind proc from a Recurve bow.

[CrimsonTider]

I'm sad. :(

[Pockettankk]

i know what you mean my pure str bear was so weak i changed to a bow bear and seen a drastic change, liked it so much i went to dex bird

[Ellyidol]

i know what you mean my pure str bear was so weak i changed to a bow bear and seen a drastic change, liked it so much i went to dex bird

Lol! That definitely helps my case. If we have to go bow bear to be good, why don't we all go birds instead? :D

[Ellyidol]

New bear fun fact for the day:

Recurves, blind proc.
Auto-bow, most range.
Gemstone Wand (staves?), Nightmare proc.
1H Swords, nothing.

Oh, and I found my biggest Hit % reduction today. 93% hit to -12% Hit in an FFA match.

Yay!

Will there be any confirmation of bear changes in the near future? I won't stop lobbying for changes and pointing out flaws until I see them.

[Ellyidol]

New thought, how about higher skill/attack hit rate for bears if they are nearer the target?

Take for example Beckon, 12m range. If used from 10-12m, your normal base Hit % applies. But the moment you get nearer, say maybe, 8-9m, your Hit % increases for that skill.

Same thing applies for other skills, at max range, your normal hit % applies, but the nearer you are when you use it, you get a bonus hit increase.

Pure str bears become more potent because going up close and personal actually effects hit rather than dex alone, while hybrid str/dex bears would still be a viable option for those that want to play from afar.

Just thinking out loud.