Class Balance in PvP

[Oezheasate]

Howdy!

This is what ive been seeing and experiencing in PvP lately and have been also hearing from my friends.

First off, rogues are utterly useless in clashes, the moment opposite swaps a mage in its gg for the rogue and i start looking for a mage unless the rogues are Zeus or Temzy.

How to fix this? Well they will need survivability but this takes us to issue nr. 2

Vsing is utterly unbalanced, im able to confirm that with the damage nerf tanks dont stand a chance versus an equally skilled and geared mage.

Why? Because we cant break their heal cycle consisting of arc shield, heal, nekro and even gale helping that heal cycle prevail while we warriors dont output enough damage.

Now you may argue that i just suck, even that being a sad truth i barely bear to live with, when i compare mage vsing with grit maul at 46 and arc sword when it doesnt proc, which makes it similar to maul at 46, i can certainly say that i dont even come close to breaking their heal cycle now at 56. (Breaking heal cycle means i squished the smurf)

Also rogues according to all my mage pvping friends are nearly unkillable in vs, because of their huge damage output in comparison to the mages damage output.

Last but not least rogues now can hardly kill tanks, ill be honest, its too easy for us if you know what you are doing.

Its a rock paper scissor situation, where we tanks lack the damage vs mages, mages lack damage? vs rogues, not sure here, and rogues lack the survivability versus tanks.

Now ive never been creative or (smart) so if you guys n gals agree with my viewpoints then i'd leave the solution finding to you and sts.

On a sidenote, korruption seems to op making sns useless, basically everyone is stacking 2nekroes 3 korruptions now.

Makes sns useless because it negates the heal effect and the damage from sns doesnt cut it without the heal.

Cheers, Oez.

[Zeus]

The vs balance is actually pretty good - rock, paper, scissors is an OKAY way to balance a 1v1.


However, rogues are more useless than ever before in clash - at least for end game. I'm not asking for STG to balance it, but rather implement class restrictions. It will also solve the tank stack, Mage stack, etc and people will learn to play together rather than just stack tanks/Mage and Korruption.

[Dex Scene]

wow now u can't kill nameless mage too oezenab [emoji14] Ur problem big

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[Oezheasate]

The vs balance is actually pretty good - rock, paper, scissors is an OKAY way to balance a 1v1.


However, rogues are more useless than ever before in clash - at least for end game. I'm not asking for STG to balance it, but rather implement class restrictions. It will also solve the tank stack, Mage stack, etc and people will learn to play together rather than just stack tanks/Mage and Korruption.

When did mage outheal tanks tho, its not supposed to be that way imo. Gg dps clashes if class restriction.

[reiewaun]

What is to be asked from sts and we all agree i think a nerf on aa of korruption,rogues uselesssss,mana runs out in 3 secs wtf if no mage in team rogues are a bardon and easy dammies

[Dex Scene]

With the new Hulk hands yes they can only do is boxing the opponent :$

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[Anyona]

If I had the same critical as I did at the 46 cap I wouldn't find rogues with weaker gear than me a problem but I currently am. Critical is an important factor for all 3 classes and it should be considered adding critical to all high tier rarity items, without sacrificing damage.

I go from 100-50% with shield on and this is with 800 int 225 Str and full shield mastery.
Also the arcane pendant in no way offers more survivability than the extra 400 hp from my PP.

I find myself having to use 3 attack skills and stacking SnS to even have a chance at killing a rogue. It feels like we're back at the 31 cap where mages had to 3 skill to come close to killing a rogue...

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[Binlaggin]

I personally think the game is very balanced at the moment. This is the most balanced it has ever been.

Rogues did take an armor loss, but now mages and tanks took a loss in healing and healing regen. Before, regen used to heal a lot. Now, you have to heal much sooner otherwise the rogue will kill you with their next combo because the regen is not fast enough.

Even a tank stack is not good anymore. A balanced team can kill a 4 or 5 tank team. This is a fact, so I don't see why it's an issue.

I don't mind having class restrictions because of the reason to make the game fun. But on the other hand--let's say your team already has 2 tanks--and you are being ganged--then who are you supposed to call if only tanks are online? The other problem I see is that pvp is always dead. There's often not enough people to make 2 full teams when playing with randoms. Putting a class limit would hinder the ability to make random games. Those are my concerns

[Verifieds]

The vs balance is actually pretty good - rock, paper, scissors is an OKAY way to balance a 1v1.


However, rogues are more useless than ever before in clash - at least for end game. I'm not asking for STG to balance it, but rather implement class restrictions. It will also solve the tank stack, Mage stack, etc and people will learn to play together rather than just stack tanks/Mage and Korruption.

The Class restriction is possibly one of the best solutions to the game right now. Probably another solution is to limit the amount of pets a team could have. Making pvp to when Nekro was first introduced only 2/3 per team. & Yeah Korruption destroyed pvp as of right now. Tanks Jugg becomes disabled and mana drains from 100 to 0 very fast. Honestly I would love to see the class restriction. It would force pvp players and guilds to play with new people and give them a chance to learn to clash and get better. Stacking continuous tanks and mages shows zero skill and it's completely useless. I say a limit of 2 players of the same class would fix pvp as every class covers the others weaknesses.

[Anyona]

The Class restriction is possibly one of the best solutions to the game right now. Probably another solution is to limit the amount of pets a team could have. Making pvp to when Nekro was first introduced only 2/3 per team. & Yeah Korruption destroyed pvp as of right now. Tanks Jugg becomes disabled and mana drains from 100 to 0 very fast. Honestly I would love to see the class restriction. It would force pvp players and guilds to play with new people and give them a chance to learn to clash and get better. Stacking continuous tanks and mages shows zero skill and it's completely useless. I say a limit of 2 players of the same class would fix pvp as every class covers the others weaknesses.

You was a tank about 2 weeks ago. You moved to rogue and you're now asking for restrictions? I haven't seen you supporting the idea until you moved to the rogue class.

[Verifieds]

You was a tank about 2 weeks ago. You moved to rogue and you're now asking for restrictions? I haven't seen you supporting the idea until you moved to the rogue class.

I was one of the first person in my guild to say we needed class restriction in pvp. I said it when I was a tank and I uphold my opinion that we do need it in order for pvp to be balanced. Clearly no point of posting it on forums as purge and horror will see it as "crying" since that's there only way to win. Stacking classes. Gg Good Skill there!

[Anyona]

I was one of the first person in my guild to say we needed class restriction in pvp. I said it when I was a tank and I uphold my opinion that we do need it in order for pvp to be balanced. Clearly no point of posting it on forums as purge and horror will see it as "crying" since that's there only way to win. Stacking classes. Gg Good Skill there!

Have you supported it publicly though? Zeus has been supporting the idea for awhile now. I have never seen you supporting it in any thread until now.

I am not with either Purge or Horror. Guild and personal drama has nothing to do with me. From my knowledge though, AC lacks rogues and they have a decent amount of mages.

[Oezheasate]

I was one of the first person in my guild to say we needed class restriction in pvp. I said it when I was a tank and I uphold my opinion that we do need it in order for pvp to be balanced. Clearly no point of posting it on forums as purge and horror will see it as "crying" since that's there only way to win. Stacking classes. Gg Good Skill there!

Horror stacks tanks? Brah we barely have two tanks online at the same time ._.

[Verifieds]

Horror helps purge tank stack simple as that. And as far as I know I don't have to say my opinion on forums for what? As I said in my previous post to make it seem like "I'm crying" towards purge and their tank stack? No thanks I rather keep it to myself and my guild.

[Oezheasate]

Horror helps purge tank stack simple as that. And as far as I know I don't have to say my opinion on forums for what? As I said in my previous post to make it seem like "I'm crying" towards purge and their tank stack? No thanks I rather keep it to myself and my guild.

Can we keep the guild drama out of this and focus on the thread? I have my opinion on which guilds tank stack you have yours, period

[Kriticality]

Can we keep the guild drama out of this and focus on the thread? I have my opinion on which guilds tank stack you have yours, period

Yes please keep it out as there are now several videos of us running over verifieds teams in completely even class clashes. Easy enough to disprove the slander when we record the whoopings. ;)


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[Oezheasate]

Yes please keep it out as there are now several videos of us running over verifieds teams in completely even class clashes. Easy enough to disprove the slander when we record the whoopings. ;)


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-.-​.............................

[ilmercenario]

Actually i totally agree with you oez, we both arent noob tanks, we know what we are doing in vs, but still its too hard break their heal cycle

[Binlaggin]

Yes please keep it out as there are now several videos of us running over verifieds teams in completely even class clashes. Easy enough to disprove the slander when we record the whoopings. ;)


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Those whoopings go both ways.

[Kriticality]

Those whoopings go both ways.

No they don't. Find a video or ss of us losing clash to him in last 4 months with me on the team. You won't be able to.


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[Zulgath]

Actually i totally agree with you oez, we both arent noob tanks, we know what we are doing in vs, but still its too hard break their heal cycle

XDDDDD "We both arent noob tanks" -namelesstank

[Oezheasate]

XDDDDD "We both arent noob tanks" -namelesstank

Zul, ur no bad rogue now stop smack talking others on my thread regarding a completely different topic, the word being aegis if u remember, same as what u said, both dont matter. Stop derailing my thread please.

Same goes for papa and Lrime, this is not a thread to talk about wins and losses in clashes or which guild stacks which class, ty.

[Binlaggin]

No they don't. Find a video or ss of us losing clash to him in last 4 months with me on the team. You won't be able to.


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I don't know who he is but I have beaten your team plenty in tdm recently. I'm not trying to invoke drama, but just saying we all win some and lose some.

[Kriticality]

Sorry oez. I'll be quiet. I do think it's s delicate situation. I also am of the opinion that team balance should outweigh vs balance. It will likely be very difficult to do both without specific class modifiers in different parts of the game. I very much like playing with rogues on my team in ctf. I don't play enough tdm to really know. I do notice a big difference in difficulty playing with a rogue but against mages on the other side. Some of this has to do with the sophistication of some mages on the other side of us as well.

Ofc the obvious issue with tanks and mages together is the team heal cycle. Rogues aren't strong enough to break it usually and don't survive as well as they once did. Rogues are still very effective in clash though if they rj quickly but I'm also aware that I'm saying death is an almost certainty. Limiting classes to no more than 2 in tdm or ctf seems like it would help some. Although maybe it would still be tough in tdm. 2 tank 2 Mage. I'll try to play some non drunk tdm so I can have a more informed opinion.


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[Otahaanak]

Honest question:
Are we considering class restrictions in PVP because of a single weapon (Arc Sword)?

Would it make sense to finally admit it's completely OP not only in damage but proc frequency (the arc staff will proc ONCE per match IF I'm lucky)

I have no where the long term experience in PVP you all have, but this is just my observation.



IGN: Cryformana, Drizzitty

[Oezheasate]

Sorry oez. I'll be quiet. I do think it's s delicate situation. I also am of the opinion that team balance should outweigh vs balance. It will likely be very difficult to do both without specific class modifiers in different parts of the game. I very much like playing with rogues on my team in ctf. I don't play enough tdm to really know. I do notice a big difference in difficulty playing with a rogue but against mages on the other side. Some of this has to do with the sophistication of some mages on the other side of us as well.

Ofc the obvious issue with tanks and mages together is the team heal cycle. Rogues aren't strong enough to break it usually and don't survive as well as they once did. Rogues are still very effective in clash though if they rj quickly but I'm also aware that I'm saying death is an almost certainty. Limiting classes to no more than 2 in tdm or ctf seems like it would help some. Although maybe it would still be tough in tdm. 2 tank 2 Mage. I'll try to play some non drunk tdm so I can have a more informed opinion.


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You know we just need to get on and clash the infamous L to lift any doubts like we just did :p anything else in this thread is overkill xd

[Zeus]

Honest question:
Are we considering class restrictions in PVP because of a single weapon (Arc Sword)?

Would it make sense to finally admit it's completely OP not only in damage but proc frequency (the arc staff will proc ONCE per match IF I'm lucky)

I have no where the long term experience in PVP you all have, but this is just my observation.



IGN: Cryformana, Drizzitty


It's more than just weapon...there's also no real use for a rogue in clash at end game. The balance actually made it worse for rogue than it already was. Tournaments already have class restriction, so it would make sense that PvP does too.

[Binlaggin]

It's more than just weapon...there's also no real use for a rogue in clash at end game. The balance actually made it worse for rogue than it already was. Tournaments already have class restriction, so it would make sense that PvP does too.

How much armor do you think rogues should get (percentage wise) to help out? Sts should do another test weekend, keeping all else equal and just giving rogues more armor. I say let's try it and see what a happy medium is. There's enough rogues complaining to warrant revisiting this.

[Kingofninjas]

Honestly, I like rogues being squishy right now. That's how they should be seeing as they output so much more damage than other classes (theoretically, not practically). To make them useful in clashes, I think their damage should be increased to a point where one must have at least one rogue or allied tanks will die before enemy ones. Make traps or veil much more useful in PvP, or even get them to work. Increase sss' damage enough that it is used in PvP. Plenty of solutions.

For those speaking about 1 v 1, which is not as important as clashes, right now it's tank beats rogue beats mage beats rank, a perfect rock - paper - scissors scenario, which is as balanced as it will get. Having every class have an equal chance at beating any other class simply will not happen. I like the current 1 v 1 balance as it is.

[Zeus]

How much armor do you think rogues should get (percentage wise) to help out? Sts should do another test weekend, keeping all else equal and just giving rogues more armor. I say let's try it and see what a happy medium is. There's enough rogues complaining to warrant revisiting this.

All I know is before the armor nerf, it was difficult, but a rogue that knew what he was doing would have a place in a clash that had stacked tanks + mages. However now, there is no place. If armor was to be given back, I would daresay all of it needs to be given back considering HP levels have dropped as well due to the lack of gems and full embrace of jewel system.

However, this might ruin the 1v1 balance...so instead, I would prefer class restriction be placed on PvP. Eventually, people are going to make teams other than 4 tanks or tanks + combination of mages and have to be forced to start including rogues in their team set up. Without this, it makes it very difficult to continue the rogue character at end game for reasons other than PvE. Let us not forget that PvP has a huge target audience as well, so it's just as important.

[intrepd]

All I know is before the armor nerf, it was difficult, but a rogue that knew what he was doing would have a place in a clash that had stacked tanks + mages. However now, there is no place. If armor was to be given back, I would daresay all of it needs to be given back considering HP levels have dropped as well due to the lack of gems and full embrace of jewel system.

However, this might ruin the 1v1 balance...so instead, I would prefer class restriction be placed on PvP. Eventually, people are going to make teams other than 4 tanks or tanks + combination of mages and have to be forced to start including rogues in their team set up. Without this, it makes it very difficult to continue the rogue character at end game for reasons other than PvE. Let us not forget that PvP has a huge target audience as well, so it's just as important.
Honestly i dont think they need armor back now especially for twinks since their damage is actually high but there should be a class restriction at least in CTF not TDM better keep 1 map with class restrictions not both but only issue is going to be is for twinks, if a twink tank blocked a game then that team is not able to get 2nd tank. There should be either a kick vote or a guild vs guild with class restriction.

[reiewaun]

Honestly i dont think they need armor back now especially for twinks since their damage is actually high but there should be a class restriction at least in CTF not TDM better keep 1 map with class restrictions not both but only issue is going to be is for twinks, if a twink tank blocked a game then that team is not able to get 2nd tank. There should be either a kick vote or a guild vs guild with class restriction.

U know already that I requested the kick option but seems sts ignoring;p no reply yet

[Binlaggin]

All I know is before the armor nerf, it was difficult, but a rogue that knew what he was doing would have a place in a clash that had stacked tanks + mages. However now, there is no place. If armor was to be given back, I would daresay all of it needs to be given back considering HP levels have dropped as well due to the lack of gems and full embrace of jewel system.

However, this might ruin the 1v1 balance...so instead, I would prefer class restriction be placed on PvP. Eventually, people are going to make teams other than 4 tanks or tanks + combination of mages and have to be forced to start including rogues in their team set up. Without this, it makes it very difficult to continue the rogue character at end game for reasons other than PvE. Let us not forget that PvP has a huge target audience as well, so it's just as important.

What if there aren't enough rogues online? Right now, many of my pvp friends who used to play rogue have switched to playing tanks because of the issues you have brought up. If we put a class limit, what happens if one team can makeup 2 tanks, mages and 1 rogue but the other team doesn't have any rogues available? Will the second team be forced to play with only 4 players?

I think the balance on a 1v1 basis is good so it's tough to make changes. Here's one way around this to keep 1v1 situations the same, while buffing rogues for clashes. Perhaps rogues could gain a percentage of armor, depending on the number of players on their team. So if the rogues team has 1 other player, they gain 5% armor, if 2 players 10% armor, 3 players 15% and 20% for a team that has 4 other players. This would also make it work better in tdm where the rogues would only get back 15% armor, since there's only 3 other team members. Rogues snipe like crazy in tdm so this would give mages a better chance running into a rogue away from the pack.

[Zeus]

Honestly i dont think they need armor back now especially for twinks since their damage is actually high but there should be a class restriction at least in CTF not TDM better keep 1 map with class restrictions not both but only issue is going to be is for twinks, if a twink tank blocked a game then that team is not able to get 2nd tank. There should be either a kick vote or a guild vs guild with class restriction.

I'm referring to end game - twink balance I've heard is fine for rogues.


What if there aren't enough rogues online? Right now, many of my pvp friends who used to play rogue have switched to playing tanks because of the issues you have brought up. If we put a class limit, what happens if one team can makeup 2 tanks, mages and 1 rogue but the other team doesn't have any rogues available? Will the second team be forced to play with only 4 players?

I think the balance on a 1v1 basis is good so it's tough to make changes. Here's one way around this to keep 1v1 situations the same, while buffing rogues for clashes. Perhaps rogues could gain a percentage of armor, depending on the number of players on their team. So if the rogues team has 1 other player, they gain 5% armor, if 2 players 10% armor, 3 players 15% and 20% for a team that has 4 other players. This would also make it work better in tdm where the rogues would only get back 15% armor, since there's only 3 other team members. Rogues snipe like crazy in tdm so this would give mages a better chance running into a rogue away from the pack.

Eventually, people will trickle down to using their main classes, so long that it is usable. After all, people prefer to PvP with their respective classes rather than being forced to play a mage or tank because they're the only two classes good at PvP right now. The statistics that STG views doesn't necessarily show a true indication of what is going on. To see the problem, they need to narrow their data pool down to see what exactly happens to a rogue against a team of tanks + mages (3 tanks/2 Mage; 4 Tanks/1 Mage; 2 Tanks/Mage). Your suggestion seems pretty cool too though.

[intrepd]

I'm referring to end game - twink balance I've heard is fine for rogues.



Eventually, people will trickle down to using their main classes, so long that it is usable. After all, people prefer to PvP with their respective classes rather than being forced to play a mage or tank because they're the only two classes good at PvP right now. The statistics that STG views doesn't necessarily show a true indication of what is going on. To see the problem, they need to narrow their data pool down to see what exactly happens to a rogue against a team of tanks + mages (3 tanks/2 Mage; 4 Tanks/1 Mage; 2 Tanks/Mage). Your suggestion seems pretty cool too though.
Yeah i completely agree that rogues are useless in PVP endgame but sts needs to make a guild vs guild with class restriction because class restriction in PVP would kill twinks "Block ur enemy with a tank then they are unable to get 2nd tank" but yes twink rogues are fine only endgame rogues are dying and this totally needs to be looked at.

[galileogalilei]

faking korruption this pet only legendary why sts make it so op , pls fix it , nekro , sns all arcane pet look nab in front of korruption....