Hit % and Crit % theory.

[Ellyidol]

I have a small theory and would like to know what you think about it and what your inputs are.

From my understanding, spells/skills/attacks only crit if they hit in the first place right?

But majority of the time, why do my attacks/skills hit more often if I have a higher crit % but same hit %?

Wouldn't it follow the Hit %, then have a higher chance to crit rather than have a higher chance for the attack/skill to connect in the first place?

It's leading me to believe that the Hit % roll doesn't come before crit, but simultaneously. Phys, your inputs on this would help tremendously as well.

[Zbooo]

The way I think about it is by: I prefer to have a higher crit% than a hit%, just because I got more chances to Crit when I do hit my target which leads to a higher damage output.

[SUPAPRODIGY]

The way I think about it is by: I prefer to have a higher crit% than a hit%, just because I got more chances to Crit when I do hit my target which leads to a higher damage output.

Agree better to have Crit the hit more crit equals faster kill :)

[Ellyidol]

The way I think about it is by: I prefer to have a higher crit% than a hit%, just because I got more chances to Crit when I do hit my target which leads to a higher damage output.

Yes, but the way I've understood it is, before an attack can crit, it has to hit in the first place.

In other words, a crit rate of 100 will be useless if your hit rate is 0. However, slowly I've been noticing that it may not be the case.

I'll put it into more detail,

If I use my Fort set (93% hit, 42 crit with rage on) versus a Bellow set (93% hit, 74 crit with rage on), the Bellow set seems to make my skills connect more even if they have the same Hit % as the fort set.

I don't understand why since I was under the impression that crit was an enhancement of your Hit %.

[Moogerfooger]

Overanalyzing, party of one, your table is ready :)

The key point of your last post is "seems". Should test it out sometime. Hit probably rolls before crit. I have noticed in playing around with archer sets that crit is noticeably affected by hit/dodge of my opponent.

[Ellyidol]

Overanalyzing, party of one, your table is ready :)

The key point of your last post is "seems". Should test it out sometime. Hit probably rolls before crit. I have noticed in playing around with archer sets that crit is noticeably affected by hit/dodge of my opponent.

Lol :p

Yeah, testing it out now. I have no statistical proof really, just gut feel. Very strong gut feel though.

Will be back in 100 tries.

[NECROREAPER]

I've noticed that, when I play at least, that crits come in strings. What I mean is that I can attack normally for a while, then all my crits come one after the other for maybe 3-6 hits, then back to just normal damage. I've also found that I crit about 80% of the time and the other 20% is more often than not either a miss or a dodge.

Anyone else experience the same trend I do?

[Ellyidol]

Lucky streak maybe? I know what you mean, but I get attacks that also chain normal damage instead of crit damage even when I have rage on, so all odds I think :)

I've tested it a bit now. Fixed Hit % value and only the crit value changing.

My sets:

Fort and Bellow (12 and 43 crit)

Target was a 55 bird with 25 base dodge.

Results were very confusing, more details later, but very confusing. Gave me both ends of answers.

Maybe Moog was right, overanalyzing. Lol.

[JaytB]

Maybe you could note down hit/miss/dodge without buffs, and then try it again when fully buffed. Doing this 100 times each, could give you some more meaningful numbers. I don't know, just thinking out loud here :)

[Ellyidol]

Maybe you could note down hit/miss/dodge without buffs, and then try it again when fully buffed. Doing this 100 times each, could give you some more meaningful numbers. I don't know, just thinking out loud here :)

I'll try that next. I only took down if they hit and normal/crit damage.

Boy I can only imagine what Phys went through!

[JaytB]

I'll try that next. I only took down if they hit and normal/crit damage.

Boy I can only imagine what Phys went through!

It's definitely going to be time consuming, if you want to get any meaningful results. If you need a 'crash test dummy', I can probably be in game in a couple of hours to help you out with it :)

[Ellyidol]

It's definitely going to be time consuming, if you want to get any meaningful results. If you need a 'crash test dummy', I can probably be in game in a couple of hours to help you out with it :)

Thanks! I'll remember :)

I have a dummy bird account anyway, but it gets boring :p lol

[CrimsonTider]

Thanks! I'll remember :)

I have a dummy bird account anyway, but it gets boring :p lol

LOL!

I am very intrigued by this, especially from a pvp perspective. Going back to your thread the other day about debuffs, and us having HORRIBLE hit%, crit would always be consistent. Will be interesting to note if a 73 crit still lands when the 13% (or lower, GASP) hit exists. Popcorn is ready.

[Physiologic]

Hey Elly, I got your PM. Is this in regards to PvP or PvE?

[Ellyidol]

Hey Elly, I got your PM. Is this in regards to PvP or PvE?

Way more obvious in PvP because the hit/miss of a certain skill could lead to life or death, but I'm sure it applies to PvE as well, just in a less obvious tone due to less importance.

What do you think? In terms of the crit rate being a factor in the skill connecting in the first place?

[Arterra]

Ah now I get it.
You are saying that perhaps a crit attack/spell doesn't go through the hit%? that you roll the RNG, and even if the hit% number fails, the crit is still automatic?

Basically that if you roll a critical hit, it does not look towards hit% and it will hit anyway, while normal attacks are dependent on hit.
That the crit% is in fact simply the hit% of critical hits.

Just trying to give a standard way of saying it, your post is confusing lol

[Ellyidol]

Ah now I get it.
You are saying that perhaps a crit attack/spell doesn't go through the hit%? that you roll the RNG, and even if the hit% number fails, the crit is still automatic?

Basically that if you roll a critical hit, it does not look towards hit% and it will hit anyway, while normal attacks are dependent on hit.
That the crit% is in fact simply the hit% of critical hits.

Just trying to give a standard way of saying it, your post is confusing lol

Yup! Sorry, was trying to put it into words more precisely, failed :p

[Arterra]

Yup! Sorry, was trying to put it into words more precisely, failed :p
Lol Np, you are the best (along with P) at making huge posts with details, while I specialize in summaries :P

[Ellyidol]

Lol Np, you are the best (along with P) at making huge posts with details, while I specialize in summaries :P

I wish it held true in writing academic papers for school :(

Now imagine if we banded together..

[Physiologic]

Alien Oasis 3: Close Encounters

Lv 56, Full DEX, 148% Hit, 38% Crit
Custom CoP + Bagman Auto-Bow + Bagman Leather

189 156 333c 347c 178 330c 173 164 157 148
171 184 332c 154 341c 190 150 344c 317c 190
176 165 188 156 168 383c 167 182 326c 370c
176 180 181 381c 163 162 307c 147 169 382c
183 370c 157 330c 318c 335c 353c 165 177 331c
151 164 165 154 185 321c 344c 151 171 318c
305c 370c 157 382c 166 160 181 319c 167 165
165 306c 327c 175 190 181 180 162 176 177
172 174 171 381c 177 360c 193 181 378c 157
178 175 173 370c 380c 156 165 322c 301c 193
65 hits, 35 crits

Lv 56, Full DEX, 148% Hit, 22% Crit
Custom CoP + Trapp Auto-Bow + Trapp Leather

152 181 191 151 175 178 158 165 158 178
172 177 164 190 179 175 167 183 152 386c
314c 316c 170 155 178 166 184 164 152 149
322c 180 176 149 164 168 165 356c 171 179
184 153 154 149 185 162 162 190 165 184
154 148 156 304c 164 158 186 192 304c 186
192 333c 165 364c 341c 181 150 151 169 193
152 183 172 167 163 158 159 321c 179 325c
149 178 186 371c 190 312c 313c 321c 150 188
369c 180 151 179 161 167 176 155 336c 179
82 hits, 18 crits

I didn't include enemy dodge because that's independent of your stats (had about ~10 dodges per set).

What's really cool is that I never missed the enemy - not once. Maybe they removed the hit% cap?

Anyway, this would be better to test with a Hit% below 80ish since I wasn't able to MISS at all...wonder when they changed that. It would be great if anyone could repro the results.

[Register]

Lol it took me a while to ralize what you saying without using too much of my brian power -.-

i THINK you are saying that two rolls go out, 1 being crit and 1 being hit normally. The crit would override(??) the hit roll if they both roll yes?? Isthat what you saying lol? Using too much of my brain power will kill me

[Ellyidol]

Lol it took me a while to ralize what you saying without using too much of my brian power -.-

i THINK you are saying that two rolls go out, 1 being crit and 1 being hit normally. The crit would override(??) the hit roll if they both roll yes?? Isthat what you saying lol? Using too much of my brain power will kill me

I'll probably edit in Arterra's summary to make it more understandable :D

Basically, I was under the impression that there are two rolls for every attack. First is a roll in Hit %, if successful, then it rolls your crit %. Judging from that, it would mean that in order for an attack to crit in the first place, you have to be successful with your Hit %, or the attack actually has to "Hit".

My theory, or more like my question, is that somehow I think that crit % doesn't fully rely on hit % to land, but rolls independently before Hit %.

So instead of Hit roll - Crit roll, it somehow goes Hit + Crit roll.

This is based on lengthy observation (PvP) that even with the same Hit %, a set with higher crit % will land skill attacks more often than a set with lower crit %. If my previous understanding was right, it shouldn't be the case since I'm still using the same Hit % which needs to hit first anyway.

[Register]

I'll probably edit in Arterra's summary to make it more understandable :D

Basically, I was under the impression that there are two rolls for every attack. First is a roll in Hit %, if successful, then it rolls your crit %. Judging from that, it would mean that in order for an attack to crit in the first place, you have to be successful with your Hit %, or the attack actually has to "Hit".

My theory, or more like my question, is that somehow I think that crit % doesn't fully rely on hit % to land, but rolls independently before Hit %.

So instead of Hit roll - Crit roll, it somehow goes Hit + Crit roll.

This is based on lengthy observation (PvP) that even with the same Hit %, a set with higher crit % will land skill attacks more often than a set with lower crit %. If my previous understanding was right, it shouldn't be the case since I'm still using the same Hit % which needs to hit first anyway.

I somewhat understand that. But please just answer thid ONE question. NOTHING ELSE IN THE POST PLZ LOL. IS WHAT I SAID IN THE FIRST POST CORRECT? LOL.

[Physiologic]

Is there an equip combo that gives you lower than 80% Hit Elly? If you have the time, this setup might give some more insight. Test out via PvP:

Hit% ~80 + Crit X (any value); Count all hits, misses, and crits for 200 counts
Hit% ~80 + Crit X+20; Count all hits, misses, and crits for 200 counts

[Ellyidol]

Lol it took me a while to ralize what you saying without using too much of my brian power -.-

i THINK you are saying that two rolls go out, 1 being crit and 1 being hit normally. The crit would override(??) the hit roll if they both roll yes?? Isthat what you saying lol? Using too much of my brain power will kill me
My understanding is that if an attack hits, then your crit % chance will override the hit %. But my theory is that crit doesn't wait for hit % to be successful in the first place, but adds to it.

So no, your first question didn't really get what I meant :p But it did get how I originally thought crit/hit worked.


Is there an equip combo that gives you lower than 80% Hit Elly? If you have the time, this setup might give some more insight. Test out via PvP:

Hit% ~80 + Crit X (any value); Count all hits, misses, and crits for 200 counts
Hit% ~80 + Crit X+20; Count all hits, misses, and crits for 200 counts

I can adjust stats for this, thank you Phys! :)

Will my target gear/stats matter?

[Physiologic]

Not really because i believe your opponents dodge works independently from any of your stats.

[Ellyidol]

Not really because i believe your opponents dodge works independently from any of your stats.

Alright, thanks! Will do this when I have more time to spare :)

[noobmigo]

I believe that hit% & crit% aren't really linked.

I think they roll at the same time, if it crits, it overrides the missed hit%.

Just from my experience at lower level twinking. This is proobably not correct though.

[Ellyidol]

I believe that hit% & crit% aren't really linked.

I think they roll at the same time, if it crits, it overrides the missed hit%.

Just from my experience at lower level twinking. This is proobably not correct though.

Yeah, but since a crit would technically make a skill 'hit' in the first place, then they are sort of linked, I think.

[Whirlzap]

My thoery right now is this;
Hit and critical roll at the same time.
Example 1:
If hit rolls and is success, then the attack hits.
If critical rolls and is success, then attack crits.

Example 2:
If hit rolls and is success, then attack hits.
If critical rolls and is not success, there is a regular hit, no crit.

Example 3:
If hit rolls and is fail, the attack is supposed to be a miss.
But if critical rolls and hits then the attack is overrided and actually hits. From Physio's testing, I will assume the override also makes the attack hit and become a critical.

Example 4:
Hit misses.
Critical misses and then the attack also misses totally.

Since the add-up on the hit and crit was more than 100%, that's why Physio didn't acquire a single miss in his testing.

[Otukura]

@whirlz

I don't think its adding up. 50% + 50% would only have a 75% chance of hitting, but it adds up to 100.

[Whirlzap]

Ech not add up, I mean like stack.
As in if one doesn't work, the next one could work.