Tank Spec Commando's Using Rifle?

[morfic]

So all I see is commando's running around using rifles. They all say they are tank spec. (AoE spec would be wastelander or sergeant thumper).

I am just curious as to why everyone and their mama uses rifles? Yes it has the highest max damage, which is great for killing trash in a team. But it's DPS is lower than the sergeants light pistol.
I think in a big team, the heavy max damage might do good killing trash..because they die so quickly. But if you are in a tank spec, wouldn't you want to build the highest DPS possible for more hate generation? I am guessing one of two things:

Since it is only a 4 point DPS different, people feel it is okay to sacrifice the minor amount of dps for the awesomesauce look of the rifle.
or
They feel that killing trash faster is of more benefit.

Don't get me wrong, I was/am tempted to use rifle, but I am just trying to understand. I am currently running around with sergeant light pistol and eagle eye implant. DPS at 83.

Thoughts?

[Growwle]

The plat rifle had the best stats.

[Ellyidol]

Just like PL, higher max damage allows you to manage aggro better especially if, like you said, the trash mobs die relatively quick.

The high max damage allows you to get that high spike damage to draw aggro once, which is probably all you need for trash mobs.

Although I haven't played SL yet and have only been able to read about the mechanics and skills of a commando, I would also choose the higher max damage weapon, especially since two skills already draw aggro independently.

Same argument in PL, 1H dagger or a 1H sword. Whichever has higher max damage, assuming higher skill damage too, allows better aggro management.

In any game that is skill-based, I think SL is very skill-based too, base damage will always out power DPS. IMO, DPS is only good for normal attacking, and even then, target armour (debuffs, etc) has to be taken into account.

[morfic]

The plat rifle had the best stats.

Plat rifle is the exact same as sergeant light pistol, except I lose 6 DPS. Pistol is mo better. Rifle just has higher Max damage, but it is a lot slower.

[morfic]

Just like PL, higher max damage allows you to manage aggro better especially if, like you said, the trash mobs die relatively quick.

The high max damage allows you to get that high spike damage to draw aggro once, which is probably all you need for trash mobs.

Although I haven't played SL yet and have only been able to read about the mechanics and skills of a commando, I would also choose the higher max damage weapon, especially since two skills already draw aggro independently.

Same argument in PL, 1H dagger or a 1H sword. Whichever has higher max damage, assuming higher skill damage too, allows better aggro management.

That makes sense. I figured it would be better on tanking trash mobs. But on bosses (we currently only have one), I was leaning towards higher DPS managing agro better. Am I wrong in this?

[Ellyidol]

That makes sense. I figured it would be better on tanking trash mobs. But on bosses (we currently only have one), I was leaning towards higher DPS managing agro better. Am I wrong in this?

It's arguable, IMO.

Although high DPS is good against high health opponents, in this case a boss, it potentially should do better than base damage in aggro management, but in this game, I think base damage always overpowers DPS.

There's usually two ways you have high DPS, one is you have a very fast weapon, in turn lower weapon damage, or you have very high weapon damage, and relatively slow speed.

On the very fast weapon, you would require massive armour debuffs so that the weapon can deal decent damage per hit, while the slower, stronger weapon would be able to deal considerably high damage already.

Because bosses in these games are strong, but aren't strong enough to require half an hour of bashing on, higher skill damages (especially since you can spam skills quite fast here), would dominate high DPS. Which ultimately is better aggro management.

[Moogerfooger]

If SL is like PL (like Elly, haven't been able to play), DPS is overrated. DPS in PL is against air and does not take enemy armor into account. Weapons with high base damage almost always outperform weapons with low base damage but maybe higher DPS, once you subtract enemy armor from the base damage.

Base damage (and again like Elly indirectly said, higher skill damage) > DPS all day, every day...if SL follows the same mechanics. Unless said DPS weapon has some kind of debuff/buff bonus.

[Ellyidol]

If SL is like PL (like Elly, haven't been able to play), DPS is overrated. DPS in PL is against air and does not take enemy armor into account. Weapons with high base damage almost always outperform weapons with low base damage but maybe higher DPS, once you subtract enemy armor from the base damage.

Base damage (and again like Elly indirectly said, higher skill damage) > DPS all day, every day...if SL follows the same mechanics. Unless said DPS weapon has some kind of debuff/buff bonus.

I saved your comparison, one sec..

Edit:

I knew this would be handy ;)


Hmm....so let's pretend in BS that an enemy has 120 armor.


When equipped on my dual spec build with a 1 dodge, 9 armor ring, Royal Sewer BFH has 183-213 dmg (198 avg), the Gurgox has 214-299 (251 avg)


(Effective damage = Avg weapon damage - enemy armor)


Gurg Hammer effective damage = 251-120 = 131
Royal Sewer BFH effective damage = 198-120 = 78


Gurg Hammer true effective DPS = Effective dmg/weap speed = 131/1.4 = 93.6
Royal Sewer BFH true effective DPS = 78/1.0 = 78


So even with slow-as-dirt speed, Gurg Hammer beats the Royal Sewer BFH. I know the Sewer has some procs though, I forget which.


Royal Sewer BFH = higher dodge, h/s, armor
Gurg = higher hit, crit, more "true" DPS

[Martin Tander]

Ok me myself run with wastelander hit like 3 enemies at once but litlle less dmg then rifle(skavenger rifle) i use scavenger on bosses like yell and guard:) but affter release ao splash dmg on cannons is amazing i never noticed i hit multiples although i used cannons since rumble(lvl20 comm weapon miner drops it) but affter release splash dmg really works and i judge those comms who use rifles... lets pretend there a mob of enemies 3 for example standing shoulder to shoulder attacking u...u have a rifle u attack.only one with weapon and rest with skills...if u had a cannon u hit all enemies with cannon aaand skills...just picture a grenade.launcher thats how cannon works for comms:))))

[Martin Tander]

If SL is like PL (like Elly, haven't been able to play), DPS is overrated. DPS in PL is against air and does not take enemy armor into account. Weapons with high base damage almost always outperform weapons with low base damage but maybe higher DPS, once you subtract enemy armor from the base damage.

Base damage (and again like Elly indirectly said, higher skill damage) > DPS all day, every day...if SL follows the same mechanics. Unless said DPS weapon has some kind of debuff/buff bonus.

I saved your comparison, one sec..

Edit:

I knew this would be handy ;)


Hmm....so let's pretend in BS that an enemy has 120 armor.


When equipped on my dual spec build with a 1 dodge, 9 armor ring, Royal Sewer BFH has 183-213 dmg (198 avg), the Gurgox has 214-299 (251 avg)


(Effective damage = Avg weapon damage - enemy armor)


Gurg Hammer effective damage = 251-120 = 131
Royal Sewer BFH effective damage = 198-120 = 78


Gurg Hammer true effective DPS = Effective dmg/weap speed = 131/1.4 = 93.6
Royal Sewer BFH true effective DPS = 78/1.0 = 78


So even with slow-as-dirt speed, Gurg Hammer beats the Royal Sewer BFH. I know the Sewer has some procs though, I forget which.


Royal Sewer BFH = higher dodge, h/s, armor
Gurg = higher hit, crit, more "true" DPS

Btw u wrong about gurg hammer bro:) u just check skill dmg when u have ff(fortified is better or just bellow) set and u see ur gurgy does 260 dmg when ff sword does 300) hammer is good for elf or bird not a bear cuz most likely u use skills not just attack

[Ellyidol]

Btw u wrong about gurg hammer bro:) u just check skill dmg when u have ff(fortified is better or just bellow) set and u see ur gurgy does 260 dmg when ff sword does 300) hammer is good for elf or bird not a bear cuz most likely u use skills not just attack

It's a comparison to show the benefits of weapon damage over DPS, not any skill damage comparison.

[Register]

hehe 1 reason is the aoe. Say you have an aoe gun that has 20 dps. You also have a gun thats not aoe and has 25 dps. Casting gravity well, pulling 3 enemies, with the gun thats not aoe, you deal 25 dps. about 3 seconds for 1 kill. Now, if you use the aoe cannon thingy....after beckoning, you hit ALL enemies. 3 seconds for 3 kills!!!

^that^ is just a simple thing...YOu might wanna do some tests though. And question! Is the level 20 green commando gun aoe? Im pretty sure it is (checked today) It seemed to gather mora aggro than my other gun. because im hitting every enemy.

Thats just what I think....

[Growwle]

Heavy weapons should be made better so they are the best choice for commandos, since we are the only ones who can use them. Even the plat heavy weapons are underwhelming, worse stats than a light pistol? Come on.

[Flowman]

If SL is like PL (like Elly, haven't been able to play), DPS is overrated. DPS in PL is against air and does not take enemy armor into account. Weapons with high base damage almost always outperform weapons with low base damage but maybe higher DPS, once you subtract enemy armor from the base damage.

Base damage (and again like Elly indirectly said, higher skill damage) > DPS all day, every day...if SL follows the same mechanics. Unless said DPS weapon has some kind of debuff/buff bonus.

^^This^^

Think of the talons in PL. Or that stiletto with insanely high dps. It's like throwing a lot of small stones vs throwing a huge boulder. Small stones might register as "5 damage" on a number scale...but I'm sure getting hit by a few rocks won't kill me. (with exceptions of course) But you'll always get crushed by a boulder.

Plus, in Pl wasn't skill damage based of base weapon damage? So using a slower but stronger weapon gave higher skill damage? I wasn't big on following that stuff/didn't care all that much in PL. Haven't looked into this in SL yet since things are still being adjusted.

[Moogerfooger]

Plus, in Pl wasn't skill damage based of base weapon damage? So using a slower but stronger weapon gave higher skill damage? I wasn't big on following that stuff/didn't care all that much in PL. Haven't looked into this in SL yet since things are still being adjusted.

I think there were a few rare exceptions, and some have been nerfed over the months, but yes: higher base damage usually means higher skill damage as well (again, usually) in PL. I just straggled up to 25 on my Op in SL, and haven't played enough or used enough different classes and their weapons to see if SL kind of follows PL in that aspect. Maybe Yanis, Phys or someone else with two or three toons from diff classes can check.

[Flowman]

I think there were a few rare exceptions, and some have been nerfed over the months, but yes: higher base damage usually means higher skill damage as well (again, usually) in PL. I just straggled up to 25 on my Op in SL, and haven't played enough or used enough different classes and their weapons to see if SL kind of follows PL in that aspect. Maybe Yanis, Phys or someone else with two or three toons from diff classes can check.
I have all 3 at 25/26, but I don't really have the time to check these kind of things myself :(

Although with my lvl 20 twink operative in full lightwave with ghost blasters, I was hitting 150's with lvl 6 mind wrack, lvl 6 amp pain, and the hit was a critical hit. So far 150 is the highest I've seen since the higher defense mobs take less damage...although I have 1 hit a numa mob on outer limits, which I guess means over 150.

[Ellyidol]

I think there were a few rare exceptions, and some have been nerfed over the months, but yes: higher base damage usually means higher skill damage as well (again, usually) in PL. I just straggled up to 25 on my Op in SL, and haven't played enough or used enough different classes and their weapons to see if SL kind of follows PL in that aspect. Maybe Yanis, Phys or someone else with two or three toons from diff classes can check.

There's also that weapon level thing that comes into play.

Eg, a level 50 weapon with higher weapon damage may still have lower skill damage than a 55 weapon with lower weapon damage because of level alone.

I don't really know how to determine it though, just something I've learnt from others.

[Nightarcher]

Heavy weapons should be made better so they are the best choice for commandos, since we are the only ones who can use them. Even the plat heavy weapons are underwhelming, worse stats than a light pistol? Come on.

They are the best choice when you're not fighting a boss. They have slightly lower stats because they can hit a ton of enemies at once.

Go grab a Commando and attract a group of 6-10 alien dogs. Use the 60 crit buff, and watch them all die in seconds because of the aoe damage. Add gravity well + singularity into the mix and you have the official AOE warrior of Star Legends. And you can always switch to a rifle for minibosses and bosses. :)

[shannong]

From what I've experienced so far on my commo, the AOE from heavy weapons helps to draw the most aggro to you vs your squishy team members during the alpha spike of a new big mob encounter. But that's only if you're doing your job and being the first person to wade into every new encounter. So I choose to use heavy weaps for most of a dungeon and switch to my highest max damage rifle for the final boss encounter.

In boss encounters, the trash mobs are usually wimpy and the overall AOE healing and damage spam takes care of them just fine. My job is to keep the boss focused squarely on me, so the highest max damage weapon is critical for that. When I'm on guardian runs, the Guardian fight is always much smoother when the tank can actually hold the Guardian's aggro for the entire fight.

Of course, you have to balance the foregoing with the need for a high dodge stat too. Don't sacrifice Dodge for damage. Spend the plat needed to acquire as much Dodge as possible. The less Dodge you have, the more squishy you are and you're no good in your role if you're too squishy to absorb an alpha spike while your engies are getting their healing spam into play.