[Design Blog] On Balance - Adjusting items not working as intended

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

Hey Arlorians,

I wanted to start a discussion with you all about balance adjustments. Whenever players bring up questions or feedback regarding items or abilities, we look into these items or mechanic in question. Sometimes we discover issues in the items or abilities that require further adjustments. While we understand that players have gotten used to the way this item or ability works, when it’s important for the overall balance of the game we have to make those adjustments.

When a weapon proc or ability is causing more damage than we intend, it not only throws off the balance of the game but it hides where balance problems are. One example I can give is the Wildfire proc. Recently I found the proc was ignoring the armor of enemies on the DoT, which should not happen. This meant a substantial increase of damage against targets with high armor.
For players, this means “Yay sorcerers are super strong!” But this is only when using a weapon that is not working properly. If without using this weapon Sorcerers are weak, then there’s an overall problem with sorcerers. Ideally, we want to fix that overall problem with Sorcerers and not the items or mechanics perceived to be the issue. This is at the core of what we're trying to find in order to make the proper balance adjustments in the game.

Another example which will be addressed in the next patch is an issue with Aimed Shot. There’s a specific combination of Aimed Shot upgrades that inflated the maximum potential damage of Aimed Shot beyond what the ability is supposed to be balanced for. This allowed Aimed Shot in this specific configuration to deal almost 2x as much potential damage as other combinations, and this is aside from the upgrade benefits displayed. Due to the popularity of Aimed Shot, this causes the opposite effect as the Wildfire upgrade. From a player perspective, “Rogues deal too much damage!” when in effect there’s one ability of Rogues which is causing unintended and excessive damage to be dealt.

The balance of Arcane Legends starts at the base classes and their abilities, then expands out to their weapons/armor, and then to the procs. We want to make sure all balance issues are properly discovered and addressed, especially if they go all the way back to the base class and abilities. It’s from this point that we can maintain the balance of AL and have usefulness and purpose for all classes.

Please keep all weapon and skill related feedback coming, and know that changes we make may not be the end of changes to that weapon or class, but in other areas of the game that we identify as core to the overall balance. Arcane Legends should feel fun and balanced for all classes, that’s our goal!

*UPDATE*
Speaking with Carapace about the performance of Rogues and Aimed Shot, this is the path we're taking. All analysis is going on right now, I gathered stats from high end Rogues in game to use as examples. The previous combination that resulted in really spiky damage for Aimed Shot will be adjusted so that the High and Low aren't so drastically far apart. All other combinations of Aimed Shot will be buffed to be in line with this combination so there won't be the disparity.

I'll be more transparent about this after the analysis is complete and will show the stats gathered for players as well as how damage would be affected (without any player names).

-STSVroom

[Befs]

Sorcerers just didn't have that *POW* factor with their DoT and crowd killing capabilities, they just seemed to slowly wear down mobs, until along came the hex staffs, which provided us with actual powerful crowd killing ability, above that of tanks, or rogues. This made us useful in elites, especially the new underhul maps where the mob density is higher. I can't come up with any solutions to this at the time, but those are my feelings on the issue.

P.S. I didn't think we were op, we still needed other classes or we would die.

[Zeus]

Hey Arlorians,

I wanted to start a discussion with you all about balance adjustments. Whenever players bring up questions or feedback regarding items or abilities, we look into these items or mechanic in question. Sometimes we discover issues in the items or abilities that require further adjustments. While we understand that players have gotten used to the way this item or ability works, when it’s important for the overall balance of the game we have to make those adjustments.

When a weapon proc or ability is causing more damage than we intend, it not only throws off the balance of the game but it hides where balance problems are. One example I can give is the Wildfire proc. Recently I found the proc was ignoring the armor of enemies on the DoT, which should not happen. This meant a substantial increase of damage against targets with high armor.
For players, this means “Yay sorcerers are super strong!” But this is only when using a weapon that is not working properly. If without using this weapon Sorcerers are weak, then there’s an overall problem with sorcerers. Ideally, we want to fix that overall problem with Sorcerers and not the items or mechanics perceived to be the issue. This is at the core of what we're trying to find in order to make the proper balance adjustments in the game.

Another example which will be addressed in the next patch is an issue with Aimed Shot. There’s a specific combination of Aimed Shot upgrades that inflated the maximum potential damage of Aimed Shot beyond what the ability is supposed to be balanced for. This allowed Aimed Shot in this specific configuration to deal almost 2x as much potential damage as other combinations, and this is aside from the upgrade benefits displayed. Due to the popularity of Aimed Shot, this causes the opposite effect as the Wildfire upgrade. From a player perspective, “Rogues deal too much damage!” when in effect there’s one ability of Rogues which is causing unintended and excessive damage to be dealt.

The balance of Arcane Legends starts at the base classes and their abilities, then expands out to their weapons/armor, and then to the procs. We want to make sure all balance issues are properly discovered and addressed, especially if they go all the way back to the base class and abilities. It’s from this point that we can maintain the balance of AL and have usefulness and purpose for all classes.

Please keep all weapon and skill related feedback coming, and know that changes we make may not be the end of changes to that weapon or class, but in other areas of the game that we identify as core to the overall balance. Arcane Legends should feel fun and balanced for all classes, that’s our goal!

-STSVroom

If you are nerfing aimed shot, will we get our armor back? There isn't really a need for rogues otherwise. Also, when you do fix aimed shot, are records going to be wiped? If not, records are basically going to be untouched.

Additionally, 3 years of class balance have gone into balancing other classes against rogues. When this is implemented, it already makes the weakest class in PvP right now even more useless.

[Ireliaa]

wait aim is gone? this is...
man we already suck at pvp you want all rogues to leave game?

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

Sorcerers just didn't have that *POW* factor with their DoT and crowd killing capabilities, they just seemed to slowly wear down mobs, until along came the hex staffs, which provided us with actual powerful crowd killing ability, above that of tanks, or rogues. This made us useful in elites, especially the new underhul maps where the mob density is higher. I can't come up with any solutions to this at the time, but those are my feelings on the issue.

P.S. I didn't think we were op, we still needed other classes or we would die.

This is exactly the type of feeling that actually hurts the balance of the game and we would like to get away from.
You're saying sorcerers didn't feel like they were performing well in AoE situations until a weapon came along that wasn't working correctly and was dealing more damage than intended. This should lead to feedback that there's a problem with the base kit of a Sorcerer and being able to deal AoE damage in comparison to other classes and their roles. That's the problem the design team would like to analyze and potentially address. Procs that aren't working as intended such as Wildfire hide this issue because Sorcerers feel great with this weapon.

If a class can't perform their intended role without the use of a specific weapon, that's a class issue, not a weapon issue! :)

[Eternyl]

If base stats and abilities are the heart of the issue, then offer a slight buff with every major nerf. I consider the wildfire nerf/fix to be a major one, and think it would be appropriate to adjust the weapon's DPS alongside fixing its proc. Just an idea. Making big swings just means taking longer to let the dust settle, which means slower itemization and progression.

[Saud]

Hahahahahaga
Thanks for fix aim shot
I think it was bugged too xD xD

[Tatman]

When will you stop buffing and nerfing stuff, pretending it's "fixing" or "balancing"?

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

wait aim is gone? this is...
man we already suck at pvp you want all rogues to leave game?

The effects you'll see from this adjustment will be if you were using that specific configuration of Aimed Shot, your minimum damage will be the exact same, but your maximum damage will be lower.

As stated in the initial post, this doesn't mean the end of Rogues and that nothing more will change. If after this adjustment we don't feel Rogues are performing their intended role, we'll address that issue in their kit. If the damage loss from Aimed Shot is essential to Rogues, the damage will be re-introduced elsewhere.

Again this was only in 1 specific configuration of Aimed Shot upgrades. If you weren't using this configuration you won't see a damage change. But those who were using this were currently dealing approximately 2x more damage than other Rogues.

[Ardbeg]

I don't want to comment on pvp but sts has done great this season with the map/mob design in pve. We're always running with a party of all classes in the new maps, because this is the most enjoyable way. And i highly appreciate it, if this balance is built into skills and not on singular weapon types, even if that means some hickups in the itemization curve. What we don't need is another season where the Rogue Arena is the most efficient way to farm. With rogues only. That being said, i don't mind rogues and mages having every amount of damage output, as long as they're the glass cannons they're supposed to be.

[Ireliaa]

ok its been 3.5 years and you see the aim shot doing too much damage now? this is the most unaccaptable most unbalanced update i have ever read, we cant take warr we barely take mage in pvp situation

now rogue can hunt rabbits let the superman warr rule the game let the pvp only for mage and warr and rogue is the unwanted class all that millions in jewels weapons gear pets pufffff.. gone

I have spent ridiculusl amounts of time to build my rogue and now im getting the news that "your class will be useless" how am i gonna react to this its like your dog is dead

[Zeus]

The effects you'll see from this adjustment will be if you were using that specific configuration of Aimed Shot, your minimum damage will be the exact same, but your maximum damage will be lower.

As stated in the initial post, this doesn't mean the end of Rogues and that nothing more will change. If after this adjustment we don't feel Rogues are performing their intended role, we'll address that issue in their kit. If the damage loss from Aimed Shot is essential to Rogues, the damage will be re-introduced elsewhere.

Again this was only in 1 specific configuration of Aimed Shot upgrades. If you weren't using this configuration you won't see a damage change. But those who were using this were currently dealing approximately 2x more damage than other Rogues.

Is that specific configuration 5/5 Aimed Shot? Every rogue in the game that is end game uses 5/5 Aimed Shot. As for post fix balancing, I hope it can be quick because quite frankly, I'm tired of being the class to get nerfed again and again throughout the year. There's truly not a need for rogues anywhere in PvP if there are tanks and mages present on the other side.

[extrapayah]

i see... several concern to be discussed is also:

1. overwhelming mana consumption of rogues, should have equal rate to other non-spellcaster class (tank), imo
2. some damage from rogues unable to have critical effect
3. rogue becoming more of a spellcaster than a mage, rather to reduce cooldown, increase effectiveness/base damage
4. mage lacking of party buffs
5. excessive hate/aggro from healing, even stronger than taunt effects
6. part of healing skill that is very low/very unsignificant in pve, getting nerfed by pvp global nerfs
7. unbalanced mastery, one can be very useful, the other totally useless, and as a side note, and still too expensive

[Jexetta]

Hey Arlorians,

Another example which will be addressed in the next patch is an issue with Aimed Shot. There’s a specific combination of Aimed Shot upgrades that inflated the maximum potential damage of Aimed Shot beyond what the ability is supposed to be balanced for. This allowed Aimed Shot in this specific configuration to deal almost 2x as much potential damage as other combinations, and this is aside from the upgrade benefits displayed. Due to the popularity of Aimed Shot, this causes the opposite effect as the Wildfire upgrade. From a player perspective, “Rogues deal too much damage!” when in effect there’s one ability of Rogues which is causing unintended and excessive damage to be dealt.

-STSVroom

So my device got fried so I haven't been able to play for awhile - And I come back to this? It's single target damage from an extremely squishy class.

On top of this, I also come back to the forum and read that the housing environments are going to apply damage based on how many you own, then that damage / hp, etc. will apply to skills in pve AND pvp maps???

Being able to push a series of button combinations in the most efficient manner and aim those appropriately at specific mobs / players is what makes this game fun and where skill as a player shows. If you're going to remove a rogue's bread and butter and then apply basically a pay for damage / survive-ability add on to the game... ok but I'm not really able to triangulate your reasoning in one regard then apply something so ridiculous in another. And it's not that I don't see the irony in my stance - of course there are several elixers / dolls etc to apply boosts - but we're just adding so many layers it's getting a bit out of control. #Arcane7layerlasagna

I was drag racing on the street yesterday. It was me in a Ford Pinto VS a McLaren F1. My friends where like... "Syl.. you can't be serious! You'll be destroyed!" I replied in confidence, "Don't worry Brah... I got an awesome tavern with like... lava in it - it adds 5 bajillion horsepower to my Ford Pinto"

All I have to say is you better wear armor to the forums if you're going to start talking about nerfing Aimed Shot. Things about to get cereal.

[greekAL]

rogues was useful only cause was damage dealers now rogues no need at game! that aint balance that how to rush each class one by one! first tanks with the broken jugger now tanks are ok and rogues will be useless! how about give rogues heal of tank or mage? they wont do tht much damage so need better survive skills!

[Zeus]

So my device got fried so I haven't been able to play for awhile - And I come back to this? It's single target damage from an extremely squishy class.

On top of this, I also come back to the forum and read that the housing environments are going to apply damage based on how many you own, then that damage / hp, etc. will apply to skills in pve AND pvp maps???

Being able to push a series of button combinations in the most efficient manner and aim those appropriately at specific mobs / players is what makes this game fun and where skill as a player shows. If you're going to remove a rogue's bread and butter and then apply basically a pay for damage / survive-ability add on to the game... ok but I'm not really able to triangulate your reasoning in one regard then apply something so ridiculous in another. And it's not that I don't see the irony in my stance - of course there are several elixers / dolls etc to apply boosts - but we're just adding so many layers it's getting a bit out of control. #Arcane7layerlasagna

I was drag racing on the street yesterday. It was me in a Ford Pinto VS a McLaren F1. My friends where like... "Syl.. you can't be serious! You'll be destroyed!" I replied in confidence, "Don't worry Brah... I got an awesome tavern with like... lava in it - it adds 5 bajillion horsepower to my Ford Pinto"

All I have to say is you better wear armor to the forums if you're going to start talking about nerfing Aimed Shot. Things about to get cereal.

It's all about the McLaren P1 nowadays. xD

[Jexetta]

As stated in the initial post, this doesn't mean the end of Rogues and that nothing more will change. If after this adjustment we don't feel Rogues are performing their intended role, we'll address that issue in their kit. If the damage loss from Aimed Shot is essential to Rogues, the damage will be re-introduced elsewhere.



Then I must ask - what is the point? So this scenario plays out?


You take away damage from skill "a"
People complain about the nerfing of skill "a" and your response is to say the damage was unintentional and somehow was never caught or didn't seem like the correct time to fix it after 3 years, till now.
As per the quote above now you will introduce an equivalent damage elsewhere. Perhaps this is adding more damage to each skill besides aimed, who knows.
Now, aren't we just back at the same point we were before, albeit in a confusing, meandering, totally pointless way?


I'm not a fortune teller, but I can tell you that you're going to meet some serious push back and if the fix is point #3 above isn't that just kinda wasting time and aggravating the customer base for no reason?

[Carapace]

From a different perspective what we're saying is that we've identified an issue with Aimed Shot that needed to be addressed for us to better make balance adjustments moving forward. There may be a noticeable difference for players and there might not depending on the use of this combination, if there IS a notable difference than we can re-add that damage in another area of Aim Shot, or the Rogue's overall kit in order to make up that difference and bring them where they should be. Currently this number was putting a lot of noise in the damage output of the Rogue in some cases and needed to be stabilized before we can make further adjustments.

Think of this as a precursor to potential Rogue improvements and enhancements, and not as a nerf because a nerf implies that we do not intend to bring it back up. Depending on the circumstances we will bring up the Rogue again where necessary. It certainly doesn't guarantee that we will, but it is a possibility

[Zeus]

From a different perspective what we're saying is that we've identified an issue with Aimed Shot that needed to be addressed for us to better make balance adjustments moving forward. There may be a noticeable difference for players and there might not depending on the use of this combination, if there IS a notable difference than we can re-add that damage in another area of Aim Shot, or the Rogue's overall kit in order to make up that difference and bring them where they should be. Currently this number was putting a lot of noise in the damage output of the Rogue in some cases and needed to be stabilized before we can make further adjustments.

Think of this as a precursor to potential Rogue improvements and enhancements, and not as a nerf because a nerf implies that we do not intend to bring it back up. Depending on the circumstances we will bring up the Rogue again where necessary. It certainly doesn't guarantee that we will, but it is a possibility

All existing balances were made while keeping in mind how hard rogue hits. Are you saying that developers are going to move the damage in another area of Aimed Shot so it hits just as hard as it did previously? We really cannot afford any more reductions in performance to this class. It has already been well established that rogues are no longer needed in PvP. Heck, we have warriors admitting it right here. I do realize the developer team has statistical data but they need to test what happens to a rogue against a warrior and mage team. Provided the warrior and mages know what they are doing, the rogues get simply annihilated. There's no strategy one can play to combat it.

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

All existing balances were made while keeping in mind how hard rogue hits. Are you saying that developers are going to move the damage in another area of Aimed Shot so it hits just as hard as it did previously? We really cannot afford any more reductions in performance to this class. It has already been well established that rogues are no longer needed in PvP. Heck, we have warriors admitting it right here. I do realize the developer team has statistical data but they need to test what happens to a rogue against a warrior and mage team. Provided the warrior and mages know what they are doing, the rogues get simply annihilated. There's no strategy one can play to combat it.

Consistency is the big factor here. Right now with Aimed Shot, you're punished by a large margin of damage for not taking a specific set of upgrades, and none of those upgrades says "Deal 2x more damage".

Some examples of the way this could be reworked, once the issue with Aimed Shot has been corrected (these are just things that could be done):
- All damage of Aimed Shot increases, no matter what upgrades you have, to balance out the old potential Maximum
- That large spike of maximum damage in Aimed Shot is moved to other abilities so that Rogue's aren't so reliant on only Aimed Shot
- Rogues become less glass cannon because they don't have the huge spike in damage
- Mastery for Aimed Shot is adjusted to also allow a damage increase

There's a lot that can be done, but is reliant on the ability being consistent and working as intended

To clarify, we are not saying "Rogues deal too much damage and need to be nerfed". We are saying "Aimed Shot is broken and this is affecting Rogues. We need to correct Aimed Shot and figure out how to adjust Rogues after the fact."

[Visiting]

>nerf rogues most useful skill
>later buff something else to makeup for rogues being unwanted everywhere besides house parties
>nice plan team

[Tatman]

From a different perspective what we're saying is that we've identified an issue with Aimed Shot that needed to be addressed for us to better make balance adjustments moving forward. There may be a noticeable difference for players and there might not depending on the use of this combination, if there IS a notable difference than we can re-add that damage in another area of Aim Shot, or the Rogue's overall kit in order to make up that difference and bring them where they should be. Currently this number was putting a lot of noise in the damage output of the Rogue in some cases and needed to be stabilized before we can make further adjustments.

Think of this as a precursor to potential Rogue improvements and enhancements, and not as a nerf because a nerf implies that we do not intend to bring it back up. Depending on the circumstances we will bring up the Rogue again where necessary. It certainly doesn't guarantee that we will, but it is a possibility
All endgame rogues (and the high level twinks too), who aren't totally clueless, use only one combination - Aimed shot 5/5. If this is the combination, or if it's something else that's included in 5/5 anyway, of course it's a nerf. I've said it probably 100 times already - go play competitively as a rogue and see for yourselves if there is a need for this.

Same goes for other nerfs like the wildfire one by the way. Finally something cool for pve mages and you find an "issue". Actually, finally the game felt balanced pve-wise (to me at least) and you start "fixing" and "balancing". To what end?

[Ireliaa]

you wrote about mages you wrote about rogues i dont see anything about warriors
dont you guys thing 3 axe throw and 46 arcane sword proc is too powerful deffensive and offensive way? if its the norm, fix the rogue accordingly

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

you wrote about mages you wrote about rogues i dont see anything about warriors
dont you guys thing 3 axe throw and 46 arcane sword proc is too powerful deffensive and offensive way? if its the norm, fix the rogue accordingly

An entire post was dedicated to Warriors in this expansion and their itemization, including these same sort of systemic changes.

[Zynzyn]

All the buffs and nerfs until now over 3 years to all classes was done keeping in mind the damage output from Rogue's aimedshot. Nobody complained after rogue's armor was nerfed and after other classes were buffed recently. Rogues were least needed now and the main complaint was against Warriors. It felt as though everything was close to being balanced and just when things were stable yet again another unnecessary change. Nothing and no technical explanation justifies this.

[Visiting]

An entire post was dedicated to Warriors in this expansion and their itemization, including these same sort of systemic changes.

Might I suggest something,
Log onto the game, use a lvl 56 toon, a rogue in this case, get some decent gear and go play the game, normal, elite, and Pvp. Do this while recording your game play, at the end of a week or so make a thread with your videos and tell the community your thoughts on the rogue class, as far as the skills/weapons/balance/etc go.
We'd like to see what goes into you changing the game as a whole, it'd be nice to get some background on why are you changing this/why aren't you changing this.

[Ireliaa]

An entire post was dedicated to Warriors in this expansion and their itemization, including these same sort of systemic changes.

wasnt it about progression of 56 weapons? it didnt change anything about 46's. Midievalmodel explained pretty well there, the issue with warr isnt the base stats its the procs do you think people will give up on their OP 46 sword to get 56 for pvp? that doesnt fix the core problem you adressed the issue pretty well but solution wasnt right

anyway i hope you figure it out becaue more rogues will know about it more fire drama will happen here.

[Zeus]

Might I suggest something,
Log onto the game, use a lvl 56 toon, a rogue in this case, get some decent gear and go play the game, normal, elite, and Pvp. Do this while recording your game play, at the end of a week or so make a thread with your videos and tell the community your thoughts on the rogue class, as far as the skills/weapons/balance/etc go.
We'd like to see what goes into you changing the game as a whole, it'd be nice to get some background on why are you changing this/why aren't you changing this.

Yes please.

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

All endgame rogues (and the high level twinks too), who aren't totally clueless, use only one combination - Aimed shot 5/5. If this is the combination, or if it's something else that's included in 5/5 anyway, of course it's a nerf. I've said it probably 100 times already - go play competitively as a rogue and see for yourselves if there is a need for this.


To reiterate: We are not saying Rogues are too strong and need to be nerfed. We are only saying that Aimed Shot is broken and needs to be fixed. The amount that Rogues rely on Aimed Shot and how much of a crutch the broken aspects of Aimed Shot were to their balance have yet to be seen and understood.

Unfortunately this does mean at the moment Aimed Shot cannot hit as high as it used to while we evaluate and understand how the Rogue class needs to be adjusted.

[Zeus]

To reiterate: We are not saying Rogues are too strong and need to be nerfed. We are only saying that Aimed Shot is broken and needs to be fixed. The amount that Rogues rely on Aimed Shot and how much of a crutch the broken aspects of Aimed Shot were to their balance have yet to be seen and understood.

Unfortunately this does mean at the moment Aimed Shot cannot hit as high as it used to while we evaluate and understand how the Rogue class needs to be adjusted.

Can we have a time frame on how long we'd need to suffer? xD

Or, is there any way we can keep the aimed shot until developers find an effective replacement that players agree with?

[Visiting]

Can we have a time frame on how long we'd need to suffer? xD

Or, is there any way we can keep the aimed shot until developers find an effective replacement that players agree with?

Time to rev up that test server :>

[Zynzyn]

We'd like to see what goes into you changing the game as a whole, it'd be nice to get some background on why are you changing this/why aren't you changing this.

Rogue armor was nerfed and Munchmouth was released. Now aimshot-change means probably we are getting ready for new pets that will buff damage. Or maybe a demand is being created for Volcano environments of the Tavern type.

[Zeus]

Rogue armor was nerfed and Munchmouth was released. Now aimshot-change means probably we are getting ready for new pets that will buff damage. Or maybe a demand is being created for Volcano environments of the Tavern type.

Everybody's armor increased with MM and pet combination so it's not really an effective fixed. More or less, rogues are still extremely squishy.

[Kaziscate]

1.This isn't really about how the item works but how it is obtained and this obviously caused a massive majority of the players to just give up and ignore obtaining it. I'm talking about the Antignome set of course. I just wish there was a more...reasonable way to farm and obtain the set rather than mindlessly farm for months just to get a single piece. (Maybe have the Cryostar Hunter Elixir provide an increased chance to loot the helm and belt from the Cryostar or have bosses have a chance to drop a rare satchel currency *has legendary chance and can't be rerolled* to buy set gear)
2.Heal mastery just isn't that effective when proced compared to the other skills. Shield mastery's absorption increase only makes a miniscule difference. So does the shield's absorption upgrade itself. I say that it is a miniscule difference because this is being compared to how much damage endgame enemies can do.
3.Curse dealing a set value range of damage on enemies in PvE rather than reflecting a portion of the damage back.
4.Arcane and Mythic items don't feel so rare like they used to be (Try to keep their rarity between their current rarity and their past rarity)
5.Arcane Ring being used for 3 straight expansions. (Try to limit future items to 1.5-2 expansions instead of 3)

[ilhanna]

You want to know what happened to the last guy who messed with aimed shot? Ask Boromir.

But seriously, why after all this time you're only addressing aimed shot now? Forget PvP, putting a ceiling on aimed shot damage will only prolong PvE runs. And that's nerfing to me whatever you want to call it. And what is this about "if this tweak to aimed shot doesn't work we can do something else, but no promises"? You're going to make your customers guinea pigs in your tinkering and we have to keep adapting and adjusting as you go along?

[kixkaxx]

You guys just stop, please. Tell me when have you ever seen a developer in game with less than 30k damage and 10k armor? Of course, "their game" is balanced in their eyes. So please just stop complaining and just use the "kill all" command when you can't finish map, just use "ban xxx" command when you can't win in pvp, problem solved, so simple.

[twoxc]

SIGH, I don't know what to say. Nothing interest me or surprise me anymore in AL. Sts always talk about change and adjust but doesn't consider how it affect the players. Lately all I've seen are NERF NERF NERF, ADJUST ADJUST for the supposedly BALANCE. But all i've notice is sts playing dirty.

After 3 years Sts decide to make changes, lets Nerf and Adjust stuff then lets put those stats in new Equipments which basically makes no different except WE as players have to spend more time/money to obtain those new impossible equipments.

for example. Rogue's armor nerfed and then was returned in the level 56 gears. Now Sts wanna nerf and adjust skills damage but as we all know it's here the New Housing 2.0 which give extra stats hp/mana/damage lol which of course will cost time/money to obtain and maintain.

This isn't anything new, this is exactly the same as before like how sts use to recolor pet/vanity or the golden egg era etc etc except now it's a whole new level of recoloring and reusing stuff. nerf and then give it back in complicated way.

I hate to say this but i've been done with AL for couple months now and definitely won't be returning after hearing about the housing system which give out extra stats hahaha GG.

[diimitrii]

Than nerf warriors too!!! They only got buffed and we only got nerfed!!

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-T560 met Tapatalk

[ArunAnan]

Aimmed Shot has been the most strongest skill for Rogue and is needed for the Rogue Class, if the damage with the combo is too high maybe you should nerf another skill but merfing Aimmed Shot by half is ruining the class's most powerful skill. Instead of nerfing Aimmed Shot you guys should consider nerfing down another skill instead of Aimmed Shot. If your going to nerf Aimmed Shot by half you'll loose your Major Rogue Players not only in Pvp but in PvE aswell. Rogues need Aimmed Shot , it's their powerfulest skill and the way it was was how it used to be. This nerf is
not needed , Im a Mage and I can take Aimmed Shots + Combos and not be killed with Shield on and on my Tank. This nerf is not needed , it really isn't. If a player complaine about the damage ..then that player was vsing a Rogue out of his class and gears and he was most likely slacking on Gears then that Rogue. The way things are right now is balanced except for that Wildfire Staff which ignores Armor. And your guys are still going to nerf Aimmed Shot by Half then most Rogue players will be expecting a Replacement like more Hp+Armor. Theres really no need to nerf down the most powerful skill a Rogue class uses , not only in Pvp but in Pve aswell. Hope you guys consider this message and read, thanks.

- Eye

[Visiting]

SIGH, I don't know what to say. Nothing interest me or surprise me anymore in AL. Sts always talk about change and adjust but doesn't consider how it affect the players. Lately all I've seen are NERF NERF NERF, ADJUST ADJUST for the supposedly BALANCE. But all i've notice is sts playing dirty.

After 3 years Sts decide to make changes, lets Nerf and Adjust stuff then lets put those stats in new Equipments which basically makes no different except WE as players have to spend more time/money to obtain those new impossible equipments.

for example. Rogue's armor nerfed and then was returned in the level 56 gears. Now Sts wanna nerf and adjust skills damage but as we all know it's here the New Housing 2.0 which give extra stats hp/mana/damage lol which of course will cost time/money to obtain and maintain.

This isn't anything new, this is exactly the same as before like how sts use to recolor pet/vanity or the golden egg era etc etc except now it's a whole new level of recoloring and reusing stuff. nerf and then give it back in complicated way.

I hate to say this but i've been done with AL for couple months now and definitely won't be returning after hearing about the housing system which give out extra stats hahaha GG.
Need speed set ;O

[Vrazicak]

Hex staff made us useful in PvE again, don't take away that from us.

[ilhanna]

To reiterate: We are not saying Rogues are too strong and need to be nerfed. We are only saying that Aimed Shot is broken and needs to be fixed. The amount that Rogues rely on Aimed Shot and how much of a crutch the broken aspects of Aimed Shot were to their balance have yet to be seen and understood.

Unfortunately this does mean at the moment Aimed Shot cannot hit as high as it used to while we evaluate and understand how the Rogue class needs to be adjusted.

How is aimed shot broken when it has worked just fine for many seasons? How is it a crutch when it's the rogue's defining skill?

[intrepd]

So all who commented here are against the aimshot nerf, why are you still nerfing it then if all the players want it? please if you nerf it then get one of your devs/mods to make a rogue and try pvp with us to find out how useless rogues are now.

[twoxc]

Need speed set ;O

you can have mine, i'm done with AL. oh i forgot to tell you, all this time i had 2 speed set LOL.

[Tatman]

To reiterate: We are not saying Rogues are too strong and need to be nerfed. We are only saying that Aimed Shot is broken and needs to be fixed. The amount that Rogues rely on Aimed Shot and how much of a crutch the broken aspects of Aimed Shot were to their balance have yet to be seen and understood.

Unfortunately this does mean at the moment Aimed Shot cannot hit as high as it used to while we evaluate and understand how the Rogue class needs to be adjusted.
Yes, "crutch" is probably the best word here. You nerfed our armor for no reason whatsoever, now you are doing the same with the only skill in this game that is actually fitting for a classic rogue-like rpg character. Not to mention pretty much all our masteries plain suck, I'm sorry, but that's the truth. Now, unless you have a better idea for rogue skills, and an idea that can be implemented asap, I strongly advice you against this unnecessary nerf.

[Visiting]

you can have mine, i'm done with AL. oh i forgot to tell you, all this time i had 2 speed set LOL.

I'm gonna spam your line with crying stickers XD
*not really
You're really quitting? How will DM get their fancy timed banners? D:<

[Amicusdei]

You guys gotta stop moving the goalposts.
I spend real money and valuable time in this game and i really do love it.
This constant adjustment stuff is bush-league nonsense.
Any and every rogue ever has used 5/5 aimed shot, it's not possible that it's now a problem somehow.

If you go through with this nerf (and it is a nerf) you are going to lose a great deal of valuable customers.

[Shaker Ida]

Arcane legends had the best balance when they interduced 46 arcane weapons untill the rogue nerf ....

U made a class useless and you just continuing same crap why dont u just remove that class and stop !!

In 56 lvl rogues have no place in pvp even if its the best rogue in game can be happily replaced with a stupid tank with arc sword ...

I was a rogue and u made me quit my best class after 3 years cause of nonsense crap just

Armor aimd nerf whats comming after ? Night clubs for rogues to dance in .. for me they r not usefull anywhere else


Maybe instead of nerfing them think of a buff maybe ? Give back armor ? Add bit more mana

And one more thing if u know what balance means .. when u put a pet that ruins 2 damn classes thats called crap
This korruption pet drains rogue mana and eats tanks tell me what it does to mages ? Removes thier 7k mana ? Or what ? When you put such a pet with an awefull aa maybe add another pet to remove it .. Oh yeah we have stampy but it misses alot and cd takes a year while korruption takes no time

You just makin me explode

So much to be said maybe you should take ur servers down looks hard for you to manage so much lvls

You guys need to play your game instead of just saying feed back feed back






Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[Zeus]

Just tested it in PvP, the damage of aimed shot is a joke.

[JesuisCharlie]

As mainly a blue I'm agree with the feeling they are to weak as long as they aren"t helped.

I believe balance come with a better TEAMWORK and more SKILLS too:

-if WARRIORS were forced to taunt to maximise his effectivness
-if SORCERERS were forced to cast heals when the health/mana mates fall
-and if ROGUES were able to evade properly and play more tactical.

-finally if a BAD RANDOM team full of blues, giants or hotties were at least able to achiev something together..;-)

[Luciano Lobo]

If we are talking about items that should work as intended an example of this is the Dragon Hunter Sword on PvP. The lava pools slow other players. That's not intended. Arcane Pendant proc should not stuck your pet's AA button, that's not intended either.

[ilhanna]

This thread title mentions adjustment of items that don't work as intended. What exactly is the devs' intention for aimed shot that they now think it's not working as intended? It does its job, it has always done so, and hence the rogue's job and I haven't seen any rogue complaining about it. Lopping its potentials leave rogues with pseudo-AoE skills, pseudo-DoT skill, and if it weren't for shadow piercer we will become second rate quasi mages without the benefit of shield and stun. And it isn't a weapon or a gear that might need "fixing" when people start relying on it. It's a class defining skill. Rogues of all level use aimed shot whatever their weapon and gear are. I don't see curbing it will lead anywhere toward improving rogue performance. It's like cutting down warrior taunt or mage AoE target, it's taking away the class identity.

[Zeus]

This thread title mentions adjustment of items that don't work as intended. What exactly is the devs' intention for aimed shot that they now think it's not working as intended? It does its job, it has always done so, and hence the rogue's job and I haven't seen any rogue complaining about it. Lopping its potentials leave rogues with pseudo-AoE skills, pseudo-DoT skill, and if it weren't for shadow piercer we will become second rate quasi mages without the benefit of shield and stun. And it isn't a weapon or a gear that might need "fixing" when people start relying on it. It's a class defining skill. Rogues of all level use aimed shot whatever their weapon and gear are. I don't see curbing it will lead anywhere toward improving rogue performance. It's like cutting down warrior taunt or mage AoE target, it's taking away the class identity.

Lets put it this way, I could only hit 3.5k max on a haste set rogue with no Nekro. We all know how god awful haste set rogue armor is...and that was with a charged aimed shot. If I don't crit, the non critical damage of aimed shot is pitiful.

On a warrior with glintstone set and on juggernaut, I was hitting 300s. This has to be a joke...that is a last season set with already low armor and my aim is hitting less than an auto attack.

[Tatman]

I'd like a refund on my rogue gear OR said gear transferred to tank/mage (e.g. arcane daggers transferred to a mage in the form of an arcane staff).

Thank you.

[Zeus]

I'd like a refund on my rogue gear OR said gear transferred to tank/mage (e.g. arcane daggers transferred to a mage in the form of an arcane staff).

Thank you.

Yes please, if we could have our stats given to a mage/warrior too, that would be great. Let us not forget the 100s of millions we've invested into our stables.

[Robhawk]

Yes please, if we could have our stats given to a mage/warrior too, that would be great. Let us not forget the 100s of millions we've invested into our stables.

When smurfs were the weakest class for ages i asked for the same thing, lol. ;)

I never played rogue class but i agree that they are weak in PvP clash. It makes no sense to me to play tdm in a team with 3 rogues...

STS when you adjust aimed shot which is ok give them something else back!

[BabVna]

One area STS need to look at is loot rate. It's too rare or too frequent. This impacts economy. Some players get good items with few runs or opening very few locks. Some players do 100s plus but see nothing.

Set item drop rate is almost a myth. I hardly see a helm or belt in CS for 3 weeks. Set is one example.

[Ireliaa]

lol aim hitting like charged basic atack with bow, so low man its like a joke

[Zeus]

lol aim hitting like charged basic atack with bow, so low man its like a joke

SP is hitting harder than Aimed Shot...

[ilhanna]

When smurfs were the weakest class for ages i asked for the same thing, lol. ;)

I never played rogue class but i agree that they are weak in PvP clash. It makes no sense to me to play tdm in a team with 3 rogues...

STS when you adjust aimed shot which is ok give them something else back!

What can they offer that will be able to replace aimed shot's previous performance?

And they sprung it with this new update unannounced.

[groler123]

ty for aim nerf sts !

[Ireliaa]

I'd like a refund on my rogue gear OR said gear transferred to tank/mage (e.g. arcane daggers transferred to a mage in the form of an arcane staff).

Thank you.

same i want one of those too with a cherry on top for the trouble pets also please i want all my arcanes. And they cant admit this destroys the rogue i dont get it are we playing blind deaf and mute?

[Jexetta]

SP is hitting harder than Aimed Shot...

Perhaps SP is not being calculated correctly! I think it should be reduced in damage too!

[Shaker Ida]

SP is hitting harder than Aimed Shot...


Nerf nerf ...

[Visiting]

Perhaps, just perhaps, let's simply buff packs and veil so that rogues can adjust to being the new support class...

[Shaker Ida]

Nerf what u want but put pots and ankhs in pvp XD

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

Hey all.

Speaking with Carapace about the performance of Rogues and Aimed Shot, this is the path we're taking. All analysis is going on right now, I gathered stats from high end Rogues in game to use as examples. The previous combination that resulted in really spiky damage for Aimed Shot will be adjusted so that the High and Low aren't so drastically far apart. All other combinations of Aimed Shot will be buffed to be in line with this combination so there won't be the disparity.

I'll be more transparent about this after the analysis is complete and will show the stats gathered for players as well as how damage would be affected (without any player names).

Thanks for the feedback and considerations everyone!
-STSVroom

[CouchPass]

I don't realize how you can be ignoring the feedback... even warriors disagreeing. I want the mil I spent on my now useless rogue back please. I feel like you guys believe that by "adjusting" stuff, its being fixed. It's just creating more problems.

[soon]

about rogues, is not the same as the flame staff to the mage?

Rogues do not have defensive skills to survive near enemies. Hits with a dagger at an enemy that kills you with one hit is suicide. Even though I have 5k health and 1800 of armor.We do not have the skill to paralyze or freeze. A skill that significantly reduces the damage.


So solution to this? I bought a breeze pet to freeze and arcana dagger to stun.
I'm strong now? No, it's my dagger and my pet that are keeping me alive.

[Justg]

I don't realize how you can be ignoring the feedback... even warriors disagreeing. I want the mil I spent on my now useless rogue back please. I feel like you guys believe that by "adjusting" stuff, its being fixed. It's just creating more problems.

Read Vroom's post immediately above yours. We're listening. It's not done. Communicate with us in a professional fashion while we work through it together.

[Visiting]

You have seen us before, during, and now afterwards. We're looking at the data, you know our intent. Raging and threatening to quit does not help anything. Engage with us in a professional fashion and we will do the same.

Alright, in that case, I'm sure we'd all like to know two things - first: what's the timeframe for the rework of the Aimed Shot skill? Second, what is that you plan to change? Is aimed shot the only thing being messed with here? Or is there a possibility of you reworking another skill to makeup for our current lack off damage?

[Kakashis]

Just heard about this. Oh my God. Rogues are weak, not particularly helpful in crowd control or healing, but we dealt damage. What will we be good for? While we're at it, pierce is hitting as hard as aimed, nerf that. Also the new Arcane Bow when creeping death procs will hit harder than aimed shot when you charge normal and manage to get off a crit hit. Nerf that too. Next season it's just going to be dance parties in sexy outfits with the Arcane weapons hung up on the vanity wall.

GG

[Justg]

Alright, in that case, I'm sure we'd all like to know two things - first: what's the timeframe for the rework of the Aimed Shot skill? Second, what is that you plan to change? Is aimed shot the only thing being messed with here? Or is there a possibility of you reworking another skill to makeup for our current lack off damage?

We're actively working on it. Please read the entire thread to get a sense of Vroom and Carapace's thoughts and process.


Hey all.

Speaking with Carapace about the performance of Rogues and Aimed Shot, this is the path we're taking. All analysis is going on right now, I gathered stats from high end Rogues in game to use as examples. The previous combination that resulted in really spiky damage for Aimed Shot will be adjusted so that the High and Low aren't so drastically far apart. All other combinations of Aimed Shot will be buffed to be in line with this combination so there won't be the disparity.

I'll be more transparent about this after the analysis is complete and will show the stats gathered for players as well as how damage would be affected (without any player names).

Thanks for the feedback and considerations everyone!
-STSVroom

[CouchPass]

Just heard about this. Oh my God. Rogues are weak, not particularly helpful in crowd control or healing, but we dealt damage. What will we be good for? While we're at it, pierce is hitting as hard as aimed, nerf that. Also the new Arcane Bow when creeping death procs will hit harder than aimed shot when you charge normal and manage to get off a crit hit. Nerf that too. Next season it's just going to be dance parties in sexy outfits with the Arcane weapons hung up on the vanity wall.

GG

It's ok, we do look pretty hot while we're dancing..

[saphirae]

Nerf what u want but put pots and ankhs in pvp XD

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
Ihihih with this i would know how to pvp then hehehe
Ah again they deleted many posts....
Why to bother with this more,when they will do what they want as always... On this forum getting only this kind of treatment or ignoring... So gl to all

[Ireliaa]

Read Vroom's post immediately above yours. We're listening. It's not done. Communicate with us in a professional fashion while we work through it together.

G, you asked for proffesional fashion approach about the issue from players, But a nerf this big ofc gonna cause frustration anger and rant. Half the game is rogue

the thing i do find a bit provoking is the developers answers; they were saying"on certain set of upgrades of the aim shot " but everyone uses aimshot of 5/5 this is treating the players as newbies and not admitting it will be a global nerf on aimshot skill which is the skill makes the rogue as rogue

and i dont see any response about pvp perspective, a complete gear endgame player's approach is generally pvp and huge community is in it.

If you wanna fix rogue back again to its old dps value without reverting aim, you gonna have to buff other skills so much that it should make the rogue valid class in pvp or pve, otherwise i predict the outcome will be catastrophic in game

[Visiting]

Hey all.

Speaking with Carapace about the performance of Rogues and Aimed Shot, this is the path we're taking. All analysis is going on right now, I gathered stats from high end Rogues in game to use as examples. The previous combination that resulted in really spiky damage for Aimed Shot will be adjusted so that the High and Low aren't so drastically far apart. All other combinations of Aimed Shot will be buffed to be in line with this combination so there won't be the disparity.

I'll be more transparent about this after the analysis is complete and will show the stats gathered for players as well as how damage would be affected (without any player names).


Thanks for the feedback and considerations everyone!
-STSVroom
What exactly constitutes as "high end"? And why is the data being balanced based on a small minority when it affects the whole of rogues so heavily? Also, I believe somewhere it was said that aimed would have a damage cap? Does that mean it will a have damage minimum as well?

[CouchPass]

Consistency is the big factor here. Right now with Aimed Shot, you're punished by a large margin of damage for not taking a specific set of upgrades, and none of those upgrades says "Deal 2x more damage".

Some examples of the way this could be reworked, once the issue with Aimed Shot has been corrected (these are just things that could be done):
- All damage of Aimed Shot increases, no matter what upgrades you have, to balance out the old potential Maximum
- That large spike of maximum damage in Aimed Shot is moved to other abilities so that Rogue's aren't so reliant on only Aimed Shot
- Rogues become less glass cannon because they don't have the huge spike in damage
- Mastery for Aimed Shot is adjusted to also allow a damage increase

There's a lot that can be done, but is reliant on the ability being consistent and working as intended

To clarify, we are not saying "Rogues deal too much damage and need to be nerfed". We are saying "Aimed Shot is broken and this is affecting Rogues. We need to correct Aimed Shot and figure out how to adjust Rogues after the fact."

No Vroom, we're still a glass cannon, just more glass, and less cannon.

[ilhanna]

Hey all.

Speaking with Carapace about the performance of Rogues and Aimed Shot, this is the path we're taking. All analysis is going on right now, I gathered stats from high end Rogues in game to use as examples. The previous combination that resulted in really spiky damage for Aimed Shot will be adjusted so that the High and Low aren't so drastically far apart. All other combinations of Aimed Shot will be buffed to be in line with this combination so there won't be the disparity.

I'll be more transparent about this after the analysis is complete and will show the stats gathered for players as well as how damage would be affected (without any player names).

Thanks for the feedback and considerations everyone!
-STSVroom

Estimated timeframe?

[Luciano Lobo]

Is this post just about Aimed Shot nerf or items that dont work as intended as well? Because there are a lot of thing that dont work as intended in the game.

[BabVna]

All we see is reducing damage in post. What combination compensates it back ? Please can anyone help us understanding this with details for PVP and PVE. All my Arcane pets are on rogue. Lol

[intrepd]

Cmon if you're talking about stuff that doesn't work as intended then for example Arcane amulet? it been said in forums for a while that it can stun pets, since when can pets be stunned?

you're proably trying to fix this issue but not all players are P2P, not all are going to buy houses just for 10 damage which is nothing compared to what they lost from aim nerf, rogues didnt have a spot in PVP they been treated like a useless class for months (Probably since 46) but some uses a professional rogue in clash only one though if she can survive and deal high damage, with this nerf i doubt a rogue will get a slot now in clashes lol, mages can hit as high as rogues with their lightning crit and they are not supposed to deal that high damage, ever seen a arcane gun charged auto attack? does 20-30% on a tank without even crit.

[Names trigg]

Me as mage in pvp, one aimshot can bring my mage down to 30-50% hp on mage shield, i believe this is bringing balance in 1v1 situations

[Ireliaa]

I get the intention now i guess, to make rogues cosnistent dps other than huge floating damage on aim its gonna eliminate bruizer factor but seems reasonable just fix the pvp factor of it and everyone will be happy

I trust you guys you can figure out

[intrepd]

Me as mage in pvp, one aimshot can bring my mage down to 30-50% hp on mage shield, i believe this is bringing balance in 1v1 situations

You're probably undergeared compared to that rogue, a maxed mage can take down a rogue, they are not even needed in clash and getting nerfed? rogues are suppose to be the best class deal damage to 1 target while mages are multiple targets, so whats wrong with that?

[epicrrr]

Ive yet to logged on and do test on low lvl hopefully thr change isnt too drastic, at the meantime ill observe post and not rage quit on forum :banana:

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

Cmon if you're talking about stuff that doesn't work as intended then for example Arcane amulet? it been said in forums for a while that it can stun pets, since when can pets be stunned?


The Arcane Amulet stunning pets was fixed as of today's patch actually! You're correct it wasn't working as intended so we fixed it ;)

[intrepd]

The Arcane Amulet stunning pets was fixed as of today's patch actually! You're correct it wasn't working as intended so we fixed it ;)

How about Korruption is it working as it is intending? like removing Juggernaut which is the best skill to survive for tank and it takes 40 sec cooldown which is also the longest cd? and doesnt light hit as hard as aimshot if theyre both crit?

[yubaraj]

I appreciate the fix that are broken. Thank you.

[Justg]

Ive yet to logged on and do test on low lvl hopefully thr change isnt too drastic, at the meantime ill observe post and not rage quit on forum :banana:

Thanks! Let us know how it feels for you.

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

What exactly constitutes as "high end"? And why is the data being balanced based on a small minority when it affects the whole of rogues so heavily? Also, I believe somewhere it was said that aimed would have a damage cap? Does that mean it will a have damage minimum as well?

I can assure you the data isn't being balanced based on a small minority. I'm using real player data to give examples of the impact of the changes. I'll be creating a post showing how some example players will see their damage numbers changing between the old Aimed Shot and the new Aimed Shot.

You all see things as your STR, INT, DEX, and DMG values but everything for me is in formulas I use to balance. That's what I'm doing all calculations based off of to make sure the average damage of Aimed Shot stays the same.

I'm actively working on this right now and I plan to have the ability adjusted for next week's push. :)

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

How about Korruption is it working as it is intending? like removing Juggernaut which is the best skill to survive for tank and it takes 40 sec cooldown which is also the longest cd? and doesnt light hit as hard as aimshot if theyre both crit?

That's next on the list. Class Balance comes before Pets :)

[Ireliaa]

hmm aim max dmg reduced and made close to low end problem occurs in;

you forgot there was 2.2k to 5k ish floating dmg opn skill damage and average of it is 3k, so the min damage should start at 3 not old value otherwise you reduce the average of floating dmg therefor the aimshot damage

[intrepd]

I can assure you the data isn't being balanced based on a small minority. I'm using real player data to give examples of the impact of the changes. I'll be creating a post showing how some example players will see their damage numbers changing between the old Aimed Shot and the new Aimed Shot.

You all see things as your STR, INT, DEX, and DMG values but everything for me is in formulas I use to balance. That's what I'm doing all calculations based off of to make sure the average damage of Aimed Shot stays the same.

I'm actively working on this right now and I plan to have the ability adjusted for next week's push. :)

Im so sorry but i did not really understand what that meant lol, does that mean that rogues are going to be shooting less damage in aim? because they are already useless right now.

[Zynzyn]

Hey all.

Speaking with Carapace about the performance of Rogues and Aimed Shot, this is the path we're taking. All analysis is going on right now, I gathered stats from high end Rogues in game to use as examples. The previous combination that resulted in really spiky damage for Aimed Shot will be adjusted so that the High and Low aren't so drastically far apart. All other combinations of Aimed Shot will be buffed to be in line with this combination so there won't be the disparity.

I'll be more transparent about this after the analysis is complete and will show the stats gathered for players as well as how damage would be affected (without any player names).

Thanks for the feedback and considerations everyone!
-STSVroom

If I understood correctly the aimed shot is being adjusted because:

1. A combination of upgrades in Aimed Shot results in high damage.
2. Rogues are glass cannons.

ALL ROGUES (starting from lowest level twinks to endgame rogues with any sense) have only 1 combination - they upgrade 5/5 in AimedShot. Only inexperienced rogues take a few AS upgrades and leave out the rest to take traps and shadowstorm. (It is ShadowStorm that needs the "fix" not AimedShot. Why was this not adjusted instead of nerfing AS) . So if all rogues take 4/5 or 5/5 and it is only the ignorant rogues who are missing out on the damage and they can follow build-guides to educate themselves about it then where was the problem? I cant understand.

Rogues are glass cannons yes and rogues are threats to their own class so then please make this new aimed shot change affect only rogues. With other classes we will be useless if this aimedshot change applies to all classes. And there is no way we can cope with it. No adjustment can make up for it no matter what you say.

You all nerfed rogue armor with the consolation that rogues will be single-target damage dealing glass cannons. Now sudden taking away of our damage is going back on your word.

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

hmm aim max dmg reduced and made close to low end problem occurs in;

you forgot there was 2.2k to 5k ish floating dmg opn skill damage and average of it is 3k, so the min damage should start at 3 not old value otherwise you reduce the average of floating dmg therefor the aimshot damage

You're correct, the minimum damage of Aimed Shot will be increasing.

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

If I understood correctly the aimed shot is being adjusted because:

1. A combination of upgrades in Aimed Shot results in high damage.
2. Rogues are glass cannons.

ALL ROGUES (starting from lowest level twinks to endgame rogues with any sense) have only 1 combination - they upgrade 5/5 in AimedShot. Only inexperienced rogues take a few AS upgrades and leave out the rest to take traps and shadowstorm. (It is ShadowStorm that needs the "fix" not AimedShot. Why was this not adjusted instead of nerfing AS) . So if all rogues take 4/5 or 5/5 and it is only the ignorant rogues who are missing out on the damage and they can follow build-guides to educate themselves about it then where was the problem? I cant understand.

Rogues are glass cannons yes and rogues are threats to their own class so then please make this new aimed shot change affect only rogues. With other classes we will be useless if this aimedshot change applies to all classes. And there is no way we can cope with it. No adjustment can make up for it no matter what you say.

You all nerfed rogue armor with the consolation that rogues will be single-target damage dealing glass cannons. Now sudden taking away of our damage is going back on your word.

No PvP implications had any affect on this fix. I think I was misunderstood when I said "This affects Rogues". I meant that Aimed Shot being broken only hurt the Rogues who were using Aimed Shot. Their skill wasn't working the way it's supposed to.

[coulou5]

Experience has taught me never to buy a newly released weapon no matter how much I like it, because chances are it is going to be nerfed.
So i waited and waited and decided yesterday that it was safe to buy a hexstone staff.
Silly me.
I have no intention to insist that the staff is as it should be but I would really like to know how long I should wait next time before I buy something so that what I pay for, is actually what I will have.

[Visiting]

No PvP implications had any affect on this fix. I think I was misunderstood when I said "This affects Rogues". I meant that Aimed Shot being broken only hurt the Rogues who were using Aimed Shot. Their skill wasn't working the way it's supposed to.

With this change will there be any adjustments to the somewhat recent PVP damage nerf? As I'm sure the numbers used to make the decisions were based around the pre nerf AS, which I'm fairly sure that every competent rogue uses.

[Jexetta]

With this change will there be any adjustments to the somewhat recent PVP damage nerf? As I'm sure the numbers used to make the decisions were based around the pre nerf AS, which I'm fairly sure that every compent rogue uses.

I like your mind, always a smart potato. +1 to this, Ral is absolutely correct.

[Zeus]

With this change will there be any adjustments to the somewhat recent PVP damage nerf? As I'm sure the numbers used to make the decisions were based around the pre nerf AS, which I'm fairly sure that every compent rogue uses.

Hope only changes to rogue, considering if you lift damage then other classes are going to hit harder on an effectively useless class.

[Tetter]

Tbh this is a sad joke, spent multi millions and time swapping from warrior to rogue cause u did nothing for more than a season fixing the issues and now what? Head back to warrior or spend the same multi millions to gear a Mage only to be nerfed in a months time? Guess I should just give up

[resurrected]

Thanks! Let us know how it feels for you.
There is 300/500 damage and crit change on lvl 15. Its like rogue got damage nerf back ( stat one )

[nightmaresmoke]

Rogues let's find another game quit al for good haha lol

Sent from my Lenovo A7000-a using Tapatalk

[intrepd]

Rogues let's find another game quit al for good haha lol

Sent from my Lenovo A7000-a using Tapatalk

I don't think that rogues should give up, i mean that the Devs are doing their best to fix this issue, rogues should just work on and help them instead of blaming and giving up, ask questions maybe about the new aimshot or give feedbacks of how it should be?

[Redjellydonut]

Hmmm i checked my rogue at lvl6-8 twinking zone and the dmg was cut by alot... Not only that but since in those lvls EVERYONE uses almost full diamond jewles my hits are like hitting a rock with a disposable plastic knife. Not raging just letting you guys know the situation down at those lvls.

Oh and btw speaking of EXESSIVE and OVERPOWERED dmg u guys should take a look at the galen proc at those lvls its insane...

Ty STS and GL

[DK]

This is too much, rouges have completly lost their role as single target damage dealer! Since this was a "unnoticed" "unintented" bug for 3 years, and considering all the recent "nerfs/fixes" most of AL needs to be revised, since so many aspects of this game is "scaled/balanced" in relation to the "old Aimed Shot Damage output.

#RougesUnit #GiveUsOurClassPurposeBack #BuffRougeSkillsNOW!

And to support my thoughts i have a classic "Before and After picture"

A max damage which used to be 5074 in my case, which now is 2816! 2816 its nothing!

Before the nerf/fix
153189
After the nerf/fix
153190
I dont see where our raised floor is in the two pictures above!
153191
I will be waiting for a compensation to the loss of my class main goal, single target damage! The glass cannons definitely no longer were cannons!

[intizamfamily888]

So we just tested the crit of a rogue at lvl 15 vs me(tank) and i can say that rogues surely are paper now. They dont deal any damage nor have any armor left to even survive.
PS:this is what we noticed at 15

A possible solution: If this fix will remain, just implement a scaled system like that the aimed shot gets 'nerfed' by 10% for every 10th level(10% are just used for better explanation)

Or do it like:
Lvl 1-10:10% 'nerf'
Lvl 11-30:20% 'nerf'
Lvl 31-60: 30% 'nerf'
Lvl 61-100: 40% 'nerf'
This would have less consequences for the gameplay

Gesendet von meinem ASUS_Z00AD mit Tapatalk

[nightmaresmoke]

I don't think that rogues should give up, i mean that the Devs are doing their best to fix this issue, rogues should just work on and help them instead of blaming and giving up, ask questions maybe about the new aimshot or give feedbacks of how it should be?
If that's the case they should've fixed this a damn long time ago, we endured the damage nerf on pvp before we accepted the armor nerf also but this aimed shot nerf is damn too much like the game is literally whispering to me (just quit bro it's done all over) haha just sayin.

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[VROOMIGoRealFast]

This is too much, rouges have completly lost their role as single target damage dealer! Since this was a "unnoticed" "unintented" bug for 3 years, and considering all the recent "nerfs/fixes" most of AL needs to be revised, since so many aspects of this game is "scaled/balanced" in relation to the "old Aimed Shot Damage output.

#RougesUnit #GiveUsOurClassPurposeBack #BuffRougeSkillsNOW!

And to support my thoughts i have a classic "Before and After picture"

A max damage which used to be 5074 in my case, which now is 2816! 2816 its nothing!

Before the nerf/fix
153189
After the nerf/fix
153190
I dont see where our raised floor is in the two pictures above!
153191
I will be waiting for a compensation to the loss of my class main goal, single target damage! The glass cannons definitely no longer were cannons!

The adjustment has not gone in yet. What's currently live is the fix for Aimed Shot being broken, which has Rogues dealing less damage than before.

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

With this change will there be any adjustments to the somewhat recent PVP damage nerf? As I'm sure the numbers used to make the decisions were based around the pre nerf AS, which I'm fairly sure that every competent rogue uses.

There shouldn't be any PvP adjustments needed, as the average damage of a Rogue from Aimed Shot should be the same. The end effect of this adjustment is that Rogues should perform as well as before, with more consistent damage and a more mangeable Aimed Shot on our end in terms of balance. We'll always keep an eye out though.

[intrepd]

There shouldn't be any PvP adjustments needed, as the average damage of a Rogue from Aimed Shot should be the same. The end effect of this adjustment is that Rogues should perform as well as before, with more consistent damage and a more mangeable Aimed Shot on our end in terms of balance. We'll always keep an eye out though.

Does that mean that rogues are going to hit as hard as before or less? sorry my english is not the best.

[Jazzi]

I really hope for a swift resolution here. Making a large percentage of the game population unhappy and practically useless seems like a sub optimal way to go.
I just don't understand why would you go through with a nerf/fix without making full allowance for all the ramifications of the changes applied. I do not understand why would you leave so many people hanging?

Kind regards.

P.S. Based on before and now skill damage about 30% of the average damage of aimed is missing atm. So it is basically a 30% nerf... zzz

[Visiting]

There shouldn't be any PvP adjustments needed, as the average damage of a Rogue from Aimed Shot should be the same. The end effect of this adjustment is that Rogues should perform as well as before, with more consistent damage and a more mangeable Aimed Shot on our end in terms of balance. We'll always keep an eye out though.
Is there any way that you could share all the data garnered from the PVP scaling that resulted in the nerf? I'd like to test he same things with the current weapons/AS nerf for comparison and post my findings in comparison to the previous PVP balance.
What I'd like to know -
Average skill damage for each skill in PVP with no damage nerf/the original nerf/and the current nerf, so I can compare the new aimed shot damage.

Average stats for every class, then and now.

The high end stats that this nerf is scaled off of.

And anything else that could be helpful to seeing how this "adjustment" effects the current PVP structure.

[Java]

If I want 'easy to play', balanced classes without specific archetypal abilities -- I would just go play Dark Legends.

[Twerk]

This is too much, rouges have completly lost their role as single target damage dealer! Since this was a "unnoticed" "unintented" bug for 3 years, and considering all the recent "nerfs/fixes" most of AL needs to be revised, since so many aspects of this game is "scaled/balanced" in relation to the "old Aimed Shot Damage output.

#RougesUnit #GiveUsOurClassPurposeBack #BuffRougeSkillsNOW!

And to support my thoughts i have a classic "Before and After picture"

A max damage which used to be 5074 in my case, which now is 2816! 2816 its nothing!

Before the nerf/fix
153189
After the nerf/fix
153190
I dont see where our raised floor is in the two pictures above!
153191
I will be waiting for a compensation to the loss of my class main goal, single target damage! The glass cannons definitely no longer were cannons!

How come my own screenshot is in your post?

[Vixenne]

I really hope for a swift resolution here. Making a large percentage of the game population unhappy and practically useless seems like a sub optimal way to go.
I just don't understand why would you go through with a nerf/fix without making full allowance for all the ramifications of the changes applied. I do not understand why would you leave so many people hanging?

Kind regards.

P.S. Based on before and now skill damage about 30% of the average damage of aimed is missing atm. So it is basically a 30% nerf... zzz

I agree... Why would you touch the very skill that makes Rogues who they are? I'd like to see an explanation. Re-quoting Vroom's message is not an explanation. I might as well just stay in towns and look pretty coz clearly, Damage is no longer in the dictionary of a Rogue Class.

[Zeus]

There shouldn't be any PvP adjustments needed, as the average damage of a Rogue from Aimed Shot should be the same. The end effect of this adjustment is that Rogues should perform as well as before, with more consistent damage and a more mangeable Aimed Shot on our end in terms of balance. We'll always keep an eye out though.

Vroom, the thing is that 3k to 6k damage is not the same as 2k to 7k damage. The damage range is still lower, even if the low range damage is higher. The low range damage never really killed in the first place anyways. So, being that rogues are glass cannons we either need to hit as hard as before or there needs to be armor granted back.

Although, I'm still more than willing to give developer changes a shot, but the way I am seeing it is that this is still a nerf to rogues across the board. Previously, rogues would use aimed shot until one gave a large enough hit to kill. We were never really interested in the low range damage.

[Bameely]

To clarify, we are not saying "Rogues deal too much damage and need to be nerfed". We are saying "Aimed Shot is broken and this is affecting Rogues. We need to correct Aimed Shot and figure out how to adjust Rogues after the fact."

Sorry but everything that is being done reads to me that : "We are going to break Aimed Shot and this will be affecting rogues".

[Bameely]

Might I suggest something,
Log onto the game, use a lvl 56 toon, a rogue in this case, get some decent gear and go play the game, normal, elite, and Pvp. Do this while recording your game play, at the end of a week or so make a thread with your videos and tell the community your thoughts on the rogue class, as far as the skills/weapons/balance/etc go.
We'd like to see what goes into you changing the game as a whole, it'd be nice to get some background on why are you changing this/why aren't you changing this.

with no special god mode stats please

[epicrrr]

Lvl 14.. used to crit 850+ on tank now 650+ max to 450+ min

Can we have our armor back?

[Proposal]

thanks STS for balancing rogue again.. when I was rogue you nerf them.. when I use tank you buff them.. now you keep them back into balance mode.. thank you.. good job sts.. :witless:

[Bameely]

Perhaps SP is not being calculated correctly! I think it should be reduced in damage too!

thats it - i bet they are looking into nerfing SP now too, or soon. Or maybe, another 3 years later....

[Zeus]

thanks STS for balancing rogue again.. when I was rogue you nerf them.. when I use tank you buff them.. now you keep them back into balance mode.. thank you.. good job sts.. :witless:

Balance must mean hitting feathers and being super squishy. xD

[Proposal]

Balance must mean hitting feathers and being super squishy. xD

To be the best is to keep calm and stay focus. Now the game is already in balance.. in PRO vs PRO.. you just need skill and perfect timing to kill. If both class doesn't die to each other meaning the game is balance.. well done STS.. :unconscious:

[Hafiz Hery]

Ahahaha seem like someone crying XD

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[Kim S. Barcelo]

STS please fix the kraken mines 3 bosses and make them immune to time shift mastery, and harley's name and stonegrip's name overlaps... Pls fix this plss. Thank you :-)

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[Jazzi]

Ahahaha seem like someone crying XD

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Seems like someone is a nice person

[Hafiz Hery]

Seems like someone is a nice person
Yeah !! XD

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[thekragle]

I am really tired of this whole "balancing" thing. Is this a pvp or pve balance. They should be kept completely seperate in some way. I hate pvp (i hate to die, lol) and only play pve, but everytime a balance nerf occurs for reasons of primarily pvp it messes up me for pve.

Nerfing armor was suppose to help Warriors become more relevant, right. Rogues were too tanky. Then release new gear that doesnt give as much armor, dont nerf existing stats. Buff a class like warriors through normal means if they are not as strong as intended, dont nerf other classes, it just makes players angry.

This whole balancing act is making primarily the pvp players angry. I agree if a class is being left out like in the past warriors were because there were all rogue parties then buff warriors and mages for pve so they become more desireable in parties but for the love of all that is holy stop nerfing things.

[Fredystern]

I am really tired of this whole "balancing" thing. Is this a pvp or pve balance. They should be kept completely seperate in some way. I hate pvp (i hate to die, lol) and only play pve, but everytime a balance nerf occurs for reasons of primarily pvp it messes up me for pve.

Nerfing armor was suppose to help Warriors become more relevant, right. Rogues were too tanky. Then release new gear that doesnt give as much armor, dont nerf existing stats. Buff a class like warriors through normal means if they are not as strong as intended, dont nerf other classes, it just makes players angry.

This whole balancing act is making primarily the pvp players angry. I agree if a class is being left out like in the past warriors were because there were all rogue parties then buff warriors and mages for pve so they become more desireable in parties but for the love of all that is holy stop nerfing things.

They just fix a bug that cause aim shot make more damage than it should do

[DK]

How come my own screenshot is in your post?

Someone posted it in a line group, but that person was not named twerk... But thought i would share it with the rest of the community, since it is very interesting imo. ;) Especially since is tells the floor would get higher and the roof lower, but this is so far not what we have seen.

[DK]

They just fix a bug that cause aim shot make more damage than it should do

Indeed they did, but if i am not mistaken, all of the previous damage reductions in PvP and other things implemented to bring balance between all three classes in both PvP and PvE, were with considering that rouges could do a lot more damage. = Now that we can't do the same amount of damage, the game is definitely out of balance.

[Amicusdei]

How can you hit us with the nerf part on the top end without implementing the buff at the bottom end at the same time?
Its not OK to ruin the gameplay experience for a large part of your customers, even temporarily.
The downside comes immediately and we're told to be patient, fix is coming.
What fix? How long?

Its the vague language and uncertainty that has everyone upset.
Your customers are speaking, I hope you're listening.

[aneshsinghblu]

well played sts . .you just nerfed all classes in pve.
longer mob and boss fights.
more pots usage. . and definitely more ankh usage,

I'm waiting for the reply from development "use chaos jewels or damage elixir"
like how we were told to use diamond jewels when our armor was taken away

[aneshsinghblu]

They just fix a bug that cause aim shot make more damage than it should do
lol. . 3years to realise its a bug. .

[azicheebahan]

......devs aim shot has less mana consumption that pierce,which as I understood u taking damage output from aimed shot and transfering to other skills,if u transfer to nox ,we 100*% ........nerfed against wars cause noone uses nox while wars on jugg,if u transfer it to pierce we will be wasting a lot more mana when we dependingg from pierce,In conclusion it's a nerf

[ilhanna]

...
Another example which will be addressed in the next patch is an issue with Aimed Shot. There’s a specific combination of Aimed Shot upgrades that inflated the maximum potential damage of Aimed Shot beyond what the ability is supposed to be balanced for. This allowed Aimed Shot in this specific configuration to deal almost 2x as much potential damage as other combinations, and this is aside from the upgrade benefits displayed.

My question is why is this an issue now? Aimed shot isn't a piece of gear or pet that's newly released. By saying this you imply that (1) you failed to spot the issue for years if it is an issue at all which from a rogue's perspective isn't; or (2) this wasn't an issue until a recent development came about that made you go "Oops! Why didn't we foresee this is what's gonna happen?" (arcane bow? People arguing on forums about how Arena revamp will benefit only rogues so rogues need to be crippled?); and most definitely (3) you don't play your own game.

You have come to the point where things are working pretty well. Warriors and mages are needed in PvP and PvE and people are enjoying their classes and weapons and pets. And then you said this is unintended and it's not working and to fix it you need to break rogue's main power? You haven't given adequate reasoning for this line of thinking as you set forth here. Did you see this supposed issue in your formulas only or do you actually see it from the perspective of rogue player?

Due to the popularity of Aimed Shot, this causes the opposite effect as the Wildfire upgrade. From a player perspective, “Rogues deal too much damage!” when in effect there’s one ability of Rogues which is causing unintended and excessive damage to be dealt.

Again with the "unintended" claim. Explain what you truly intend aimed shot to do and how that differs from previous iteration as is laid out in the skills description. More and more it seems to me you're only doing this to cover up a blunder of foresight instead of with the interest of the players in general and rogues in particular.

Rogues use aimed shot whatever their mode of play is, PvE or PvP, and we use it from the get go. It's the only skill you don't need mastery or charging to do its job. Messing with aimed shot means you're ruining the game for rogues across the board.

The balance of Arcane Legends starts at the base classes and their abilities, then expands out to their weapons/armor, and then to the procs. We want to make sure all balance issues are properly discovered and addressed, especially if they go all the way back to the base class and abilities. It’s from this point that we can maintain the balance of AL and have usefulness and purpose for all classes.

Aimed shot defines a rogue use and purpose in game. You blunt this skill, you render rogue useless.

Arcane Legends should feel fun and balanced for all classes, that’s our goal!

The game isn't fun now for rogues. If you don't yet have interim hypothetical solution to your theoretical issue, why not let rogues keep their aimed shot? Many players only have time to play during the weekends and this time you leave rogues with only a stump of their former skill.

*UPDATE*
Speaking with Carapace about the performance of Rogues and Aimed Shot, this is the path we're taking. All analysis is going on right now, I gathered stats from high end Rogues in game to use as examples. The previous combination that resulted in really spiky damage for Aimed Shot will be adjusted so that the High and Low aren't so drastically far apart. All other combinations of Aimed Shot will be buffed to be in line with this combination so there won't be the disparity.

So the issue is inconsistent output? And the solution is bringing the high and low closer together. Unless you bring the floor up so it's closer to the ceiling--and won't that be inconsistent of you when you spoke earlier of unintended inflated potential damage that needs to be brought in line--whatever fix you propose to make will nerf the rogue however much you refuse to acknowledge it.

-STSVroom

My comments in bold above.

[ilhanna]

The effects you'll see from this adjustment will be if you were using that specific configuration of Aimed Shot, your minimum damage will be the exact same, but your maximum damage will be lower.

In other word, a nerf.

As stated in the initial post, this doesn't mean the end of Rogues and that nothing more will change. If after this adjustment we don't feel Rogues are performing their intended role, we'll address that issue in their kit. If the damage loss from Aimed Shot is essential to Rogues, the damage will be re-introduced elsewhere.

Play a rogue, PvP, PvE, end game, twink and you decide if aimed shot damage is essential or not. This skill defines a rogue. It's what makes us of critical use against bosses and specific enemies that need to be taken out first like healers and buffers. What other skill can take the place or compensate for aimed shot single damage burst for this purpose? Shadow piercer? Your stripping of rogue armor makes this option not viable especially for the low level, average geared rogues (an additional concern since for the purpose of this experiment you take yout numbers from high end rogues).

Again this was only in 1 specific configuration of Aimed Shot upgrades. If you weren't using this configuration you won't see a damage change. But those who were using this were currently dealing approximately 2x more damage than other Rogues.

So you're basically saying putting 5/5 upgrades on aimed shot is what's causing what you keep insinuating is an issue? What rogue isn't using this set? To me what you're implying here is rogues with 5/5 aimed shot will have their damage halved, bringing it closer to that of rogues who aren't maximizing their skills upgrade; like forcing overachiever to be mediocre.

My comments in bold.

[BabVna]

Rogue was not playable in PVE after Armor nerf. Then 10% nerf on NB. Now 50% nerf on AS. Just got my Arcane daggers few days ago and felt ok to play for a while and now no more. Rogue items happen to be costly always. Lol I would have spent on warrior weapon. Cheaper and easy.

Good job STS. You continue to loose players. No fun in game. We are buying worries with money. You may ignore my feedback. But it's true.

[ilhanna]

There may be a noticeable difference for players and there might not depending on the use of this combination, if there IS a notable difference than we can re-add that damage in another area of Aim Shot, or the Rogue's overall kit in order to make up that difference and bring them where they should be.

Play a rogue and see what other arsenal in a rogue kit can fully substitute aimed shotbfor its purpose against single enemies? Nox bolt? Mage can do DoT way better. Shadow storm shot? Same thing with nox. Shadow piercer? We don't have warrior health and armor. Trap? Veil? Razor shield? Too late to make April Fool's joke now.

Currently this number was putting a lot of noise in the damage output of the Rogue in some cases and needed to be stabilized before we can make further adjustments.

A skill allowing rogues to perform their role is considered noise. That's only because you're seeing it from behind the scene. Play the rogue and actually hear the noise in action.

Think of this as a precursor to potential Rogue improvements and enhancements, and not as a nerf because a nerf implies that we do not intend to bring it back up. Depending on the circumstances we will bring up the Rogue again where necessary. It certainly doesn't guarantee that we will, but it is a possibility.

I can't think of this as improvement when it takes me more time and mana to kill in elite.

My comments in bold.

[azicheebahan]

Game was becoming boring at pvp,now it's getting pissing.....

[ilhanna]

Consistency is the big factor here. Right now with Aimed Shot, you're punished by a large margin of damage for not taking a specific set of upgrades, and none of those upgrades says "Deal 2x more damage".

But most if not all rogues take all of the upgrades, so in what way are we punished again?

Some examples of the way this could be reworked, once the issue with Aimed Shot has been corrected (these are just things that could be done):
- All damage of Aimed Shot increases, no matter what upgrades you have, to balance out the old potential Maximum
- That large spike of maximum damage in Aimed Shot is moved to other abilities so that Rogue's aren't so reliant on only Aimed Shot Other skills have their function but they can't fully substitute aimed shot for the specific function it's used for: single target damage.
- Rogues become less glass cannon because they don't have the huge spike in damage Why is it wrong to be a glass cannon when that's exactly the role rogues play?
- Mastery for Aimed Shot is adjusted to also allow a damage increase Mastery can only be accessed by players level 20 and above. End game rogues already have to spend half of their skills points on passives, we make do without some support skills like veil and trap to make it possible for us to put mastery points to maximize nox bolt and shadow storm shot, I'm already switching builds with different skills sets for different maps, I shudder to think of what lower level rogues and those without a ton of respec scrolls for switching builds will say about making mastery a necessity to maximize aimed shot.

To clarify, we are not saying "Rogues deal too much damage and need to be nerfed". We are saying "Aimed Shot is broken and this is affecting Rogues. We need to correct Aimed Shot and figure out how to adjust Rogues after the fact."

I still can't understand why it's broken from your perspective because from mine it's not. It's doing its job.

My comments in bold.

[Tapash Bose]

Hey Arlorians,

I wanted to start a discussion with you all about balance adjustments. Whenever players bring up questions or feedback regarding items or abilities, we look into these items or mechanic in question. Sometimes we discover issues in the items or abilities that require further adjustments. While we understand that players have gotten used to the way this item or ability works, when it’s important for the overall balance of the game we have to make those adjustments.

When a weapon proc or ability is causing more damage than we intend, it not only throws off the balance of the game but it hides where balance problems are. One example I can give is the Wildfire proc. Recently I found the proc was ignoring the armor of enemies on the DoT, which should not happen. This meant a substantial increase of damage against targets with high armor.
For players, this means “Yay sorcerers are super strong!” But this is only when using a weapon that is not working properly. If without using this weapon Sorcerers are weak, then there’s an overall problem with sorcerers. Ideally, we want to fix that overall problem with Sorcerers and not the items or mechanics perceived to be the issue. This is at the core of what we're trying to find in order to make the proper balance adjustments in the game.

Another example which will be addressed in the next patch is an issue with Aimed Shot. There’s a specific combination of Aimed Shot upgrades that inflated the maximum potential damage of Aimed Shot beyond what the ability is supposed to be balanced for. This allowed Aimed Shot in this specific configuration to deal almost 2x as much potential damage as other combinations, and this is aside from the upgrade benefits displayed. Due to the popularity of Aimed Shot, this causes the opposite effect as the Wildfire upgrade. From a player perspective, “Rogues deal too much damage!” when in effect there’s one ability of Rogues which is causing unintended and excessive damage to be dealt.

The balance of Arcane Legends starts at the base classes and their abilities, then expands out to their weapons/armor, and then to the procs. We want to make sure all balance issues are properly discovered and addressed, especially if they go all the way back to the base class and abilities. It’s from this point that we can maintain the balance of AL and have usefulness and purpose for all classes.

Please keep all weapon and skill related feedback coming, and know that changes we make may not be the end of changes to that weapon or class, but in other areas of the game that we identify as core to the overall balance. Arcane Legends should feel fun and balanced for all classes, that’s our goal!

*UPDATE*
Speaking with Carapace about the performance of Rogues and Aimed Shot, this is the path we're taking. All analysis is going on right now, I gathered stats from high end Rogues in game to use as examples. The previous combination that resulted in really spiky damage for Aimed Shot will be adjusted so that the High and Low aren't so drastically far apart. All other combinations of Aimed Shot will be buffed to be in line with this combination so there won't be the disparity.

I'll be more transparent about this after the analysis is complete and will show the stats gathered for players as well as how damage would be affected (without any player names).

-STSVroom

Some questions..though I am not a opor a high end rogue..so doubt even if u will care to reply...
1, Dont we deserve to know what is the specific combination ? If that was a bug and u are fixing it after 3 years ..what is the harm in letting ppl now about the bug..
If it is indeed 5/5 every rogue from lvl 30 has it...then the only reason for not disclosing it is that u know very well the argument is not valid...
First the criteria..then armor..now u are messing with the most important attacking skill in repertoire...and judging by the current lvl of programming ( for the last few months...story of bugs and bug fixes only) i can quite imagine how it will go ..

2. With the 56 expansion every attempt is being made to nerf every class...while the mob design was very unimaginative and normal Underhul is quite beefy...nothing like when tindrin came out..when the gameplay though difficult was enjoyable...Are you making sure that nobody should enter the map wo stacking himself with all the elixir available in the market ? or otherwise should stick to tindrin...
3. As a software developer myself i know how important it is for somebody to know the environment in order to develop a software..
Well as u say ...u designed the gears ..u put stats into them after your so called considerations..
So respected sir ..I challenge 3 of your developers each from 1 class..with the lvl 56 legendary gears...gears with nothing above fortified jewels (something which only 10-15% of players have)..to elite underhul and stay alive...Ideally the legendary should be able to carry u through the elites...
I agree some of us not so op rogues are probably bad players..so we will certainly like to watch and learn from your developers how you play and handle the elite mobs and bosses...:)

[Safiras]

Firstly I'd like to salute the rogues who are still going out there and trying your best to play the game. You guys will go out there and unleash your (lack of) damage so that devs can get their precious data. Most rogues would probably try to run an elite map or two, get pissed off at their impotent attacks, then retreat to their mage/tank alts. I'm not sure if i will do that too. Seems the most productive way of playing now that my rogue can't do her job anymore.

I'm not convinced that you cannot test on your own before letting us bear the brunt of any major change in game mechanics. It's pretty easy to put together a team of decently-geared toons amongst the Devs and Mods and run the maps like the rest of us do (and without that /killall command used). It'll then be apparent to you how useful your fix/nerf/change/whatever will be to the so-called balance of the game.

Let me state what others probably feel as well: I do not like being made a test subject for something that adversely affects my gameplay. Ideally one altruistic gracious person would say that oh, I am up to the task, I would do the dirty work so that the game improves from my sacrifice and data collection. Unfortunately, not all of us are like that. Most of us play on limited time and want to squeeze maximum enjoyment out of every precious minute spent in game. No one likes to be guinea pigs. Obviously, I would sing a different tune if I knew that I would be getting something positive out of this brief(?) Period of lousy gameplay. You have assured us something to that effect. However you have also said that you will not guarantee some return of the rogue's original power, and that (along with other recent events), does not inspire confidence.

Notice that my post has not been addressing the specifics of the rogue aimed shot fix, nor have I given suggestions on how to give rogues back what we have lost. I am attacking what I feel has been a flawed process in gameplay evaluation and adjustment. The manner in which changes are implemented and feedback is sourced just feels so disjointed and wrong. Changes are being implemented without due feedback collected and adequate preliminary testing (again, stating here that I do not buy into the claim that Devs cannot test stuff by themselves). When this happens, people start to lose faith that a proper consultative and evaluation process is taking place. This is why people are ranting.

I will end off his long post with a parting shot at the devs: one of you mentioned that you look at the game in terms of the numerous equations and lines of code that define the game's mechanics and influence the fine balance of gameplay. I plead with you to look beyond those numbers and codes and touch the game for a bit... feel what we feel and do what we do, much more often than you already are doing, because I feel (as others do) you do not play your own game enough. I have hardly made as emotional a post as this, and I suspect it will be edited for "less drama". But I want to continue to enjoy this game with my guildies and good friends, and I just hope you guys will change the way you evaluate the game and feedback in future.

[ilhanna]

To quote Justg in this comment on a locked thread (click HERE (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?353924-Rogues-don-t-pack-up-yet&p=2533031&viewfull=1#post2533031)): "Test or Dev environment is one thing, Live is completely another."

Please explain why getting Live experience should entail compromising game experience for the entire rogue population.

One last thing. I made these comments because I've played a rogue for almost three years (my third AL anniversary is in August). I love playing rogue and I care about this game and the friends I made here. I wouldn't have expressed my concerns and opinions if this is a game I'm prepared to ditch the moment it stops being fun. My views aren't drama-mongering provocations. They're based on my experience playing rogue through bad build, poor gear, skeleton stable to where I am now. You ask us to be professional in our communication with you regarding this issue. I ask you to be more transparent in your reasoning and propositions and to take our views into consideration.

[Ireliaa]

well instead of lowering the max damage(that 5k one one lowered significantly) what we need is upping the lower damage instead

rogues were falling behind already during pre nerf a buff. Glass cannon part is necessary. This aim shots max dmg reduction made us glass support

In pvp environment we were relying on that max damage to get kills, you are tying to make stable dps output, but without cc or shield etc its not gonna work on pvp environment, its eradication of rogue in pvp

[Sheentaro]

Firstly I'd like to salute the rogues who are still going out there and trying your best to play the game. You guys will go out there and unleash your (lack of) damage so that devs can get their precious data. Most rogues would probably try to run an elite map or two, get pissed off at their impotent attacks, then retreat to their mage/tank alts. I'm not sure if i will do that too. Seems the most productive way of playing now that my rogue can't do her job anymore.

I'm not convinced that you cannot test on your own before letting us bear the brunt of any major change in game mechanics. It's pretty easy to put together a team of decently-geared toons amongst the Devs and Mods and run the maps like the rest of us do (and without that /killall command used). It'll then be apparent to you how useful your fix/nerf/change/whatever will be to the so-called balance of the game.

Let me state what others probably feel as well: I do not like being made a test subject for something that adversely affects my gameplay. Ideally one altruistic gracious person would say that oh, I am up to the task, I would do the dirty work so that the game improves from my sacrifice and data collection. Unfortunately, not all of us are like that. Most of us play on limited time and want to squeeze maximum enjoyment out of every precious minute spent in game. No one likes to be guinea pigs. Obviously, I would sing a different tune if I knew that I would be getting something positive out of this brief(?) Period of lousy gameplay. You have assured us something to that effect. However you have also said that you will not guarantee some return of the rogue's original power, and that (along with other recent events), does not inspire confidence.

Notice that my post has not been addressing the specifics of the rogue aimed shot fix, nor have I given suggestions on how to give rogues back what we have lost. I am attacking what I feel has been a flawed process in gameplay evaluation and adjustment. The manner in which changes are implemented and feedback is sourced just feels so disjointed and wrong. Changes are being implemented without due feedback collected and adequate preliminary testing (again, stating here that I do not buy into the claim that Devs cannot test stuff by themselves). When this happens, people start to lose faith that a proper consultative and evaluation process is taking place. This is why people are ranting.

I will end off his long post with a parting shot at the devs: one of you mentioned that you look at the game in terms of the numerous equations and lines of code that define the game's mechanics and influence the fine balance of gameplay. I plead with you to look beyond those numbers and codes and touch the game for a bit... feel what we feel and do what we do, much more often than you already are doing, because I feel (as others do) you do not play your own game enough. I have hardly made as emotional a post as this, and I suspect it will be edited for "less drama". But I want to continue to enjoy this game with my guildies and good friends, and I just hope you guys will change the way you evaluate the game and feedback in future.
Couldn't agree more.... you da real mvp!

[stillzrealist]

with sorcerers when i sometimes use time shift it doesnt work and i have to wait for cooldown again, its annoying especially in eilte maps, maybe but not to sure on a charged heal

[Earlingstad]

Hey Arlorians,

I wanted to start a discussion with you all about balance adjustments. Whenever players bring up questions or feedback regarding items or abilities, we look into these items or mechanic in question. Sometimes we discover issues in the items or abilities that require further adjustments. While we understand that players have gotten used to the way this item or ability works, when it’s important for the overall balance of the game we have to make those adjustments.

When a weapon proc or ability is causing more damage than we intend, it not only throws off the balance of the game but it hides where balance problems are. One example I can give is the Wildfire proc. Recently I found the proc was ignoring the armor of enemies on the DoT, which should not happen. This meant a substantial increase of damage against targets with high armor.
For players, this means “Yay sorcerers are super strong!” But this is only when using a weapon that is not working properly. If without using this weapon Sorcerers are weak, then there’s an overall problem with sorcerers. Ideally, we want to fix that overall problem with Sorcerers and not the items or mechanics perceived to be the issue. This is at the core of what we're trying to find in order to make the proper balance adjustments in the game.

Another example which will be addressed in the next patch is an issue with Aimed Shot. There’s a specific combination of Aimed Shot upgrades that inflated the maximum potential damage of Aimed Shot beyond what the ability is supposed to be balanced for. This allowed Aimed Shot in this specific configuration to deal almost 2x as much potential damage as other combinations, and this is aside from the upgrade benefits displayed. Due to the popularity of Aimed Shot, this causes the opposite effect as the Wildfire upgrade. From a player perspective, “Rogues deal too much damage!” when in effect there’s one ability of Rogues which is causing unintended and excessive damage to be dealt.

The balance of Arcane Legends starts at the base classes and their abilities, then expands out to their weapons/armor, and then to the procs. We want to make sure all balance issues are properly discovered and addressed, especially if they go all the way back to the base class and abilities. It’s from this point that we can maintain the balance of AL and have usefulness and purpose for all classes.

Please keep all weapon and skill related feedback coming, and know that changes we make may not be the end of changes to that weapon or class, but in other areas of the game that we identify as core to the overall balance. Arcane Legends should feel fun and balanced for all classes, that’s our goal!

*UPDATE*
Speaking with Carapace about the performance of Rogues and Aimed Shot, this is the path we're taking. All analysis is going on right now, I gathered stats from high end Rogues in game to use as examples. The previous combination that resulted in really spiky damage for Aimed Shot will be adjusted so that the High and Low aren't so drastically far apart. All other combinations of Aimed Shot will be buffed to be in line with this combination so there won't be the disparity.

I'll be more transparent about this after the analysis is complete and will show the stats gathered for players as well as how damage would be affected (without any player names).

-STSVroom

Hello Vroom,

This thread is Cinco's thread.

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?319121-PvP-Balance-Adjustments-and-PvP-Tiers&highlight=balance+adjustment

In the thread above Cinco stated that game data was already getting analyzed, and the decisions were made, balance adjustments were implemented based on tiers. At that time, the data related to damage dealt by the usual Rogue's Aimed Shot- among other things - per Tier, went on to mould and shape up other class buffs is it not? Now this new Aimed Shot change thread just made fun of this by stating that Aimshot is not working as intended. But still care about the game so cannot grab popcorn and laugh yet.

No matter how elaborately one words it, it is wrong. Think about it and lets be honest, isnt THIS totally ridiculous?---------Warriors and Mages got multiple buffs, not once but repeatedly over time. Those buffs were BASED on how balance was with Aimed Shot working as it was. Now you say AimedShot isnt working like intended so its dmg needs to be capped? So let us start from scratch, erase all the class adjustments and wipe out the Leaderboard because the "bugged" Aimedshot was a part of this?

Please dont go so fast :P. Go slow and analyze everything that has been said and done regarding balance adjustment. Coordination is vital to convince the player base of the changes you slap them with. The only thing "inconsistent" and "spiky" is this----> Why do you feel it is suddenly necessary to weaken Rogue's damage-dealing NOW when nobody was complaining about rogues recently, People complained about Warriors being OP in pvp and pve and this sudden weakening of the rogue class is what we got. That is funny.

Weren't all the previous changes made after analyzing data week after week? So you're implying that all that was BS and you need to analyze data again? That is self-contradictory and makes us distrust you.

The AimedShot was dealing just enough damage for the rogue to survive after the heavy armor nerf. Capping its damage now was not needed. And certainly not for low-damage twink brackets. To say that the low range of the Aim Shot has been increased to compensate for the higher range damage-cap cannot console.

As a player I am driven to the edge so much so that I cannot help but wonder that maybe this is a way to create a problem artificially so that the need for new damage-buffing pets is required. A month later to design and sell new heavy heal pets, you all might nerf Rogue's Heal again saying it was not intended. And why always rogue? Because the rogue is the easiest to make a scapegoat out of since the myth-image of the rogue is "rogue is op". Many of us in the player community are not a bunch of freshers on orientation day. We are very much in tune with all changes over the years and know every single detail about ALL the class/balance changes.

The absurdity of making balance adjustments to classes, weapons, gear, skill buffs, allowing leaderboards etc while keeping in mind the data about damage dealt by AimedShot all this while and then weakening the AimedShot now is hard not to notice.

Another absurd comparision is when you compared the Warrior's weapon/itemization discussion thread with this. Weapon changes do not affect all, they affect where it is needed but you have changed the main defining skill of the rogue and this affects low level rogues too where damage is already low. It is clearly not the same thing.

[Zeus]

Firstly I'd like to salute the rogues who are still going out there and trying your best to play the game. You guys will go out there and unleash your (lack of) damage so that devs can get their precious data. Most rogues would probably try to run an elite map or two, get pissed off at their impotent attacks, then retreat to their mage/tank alts. I'm not sure if i will do that too. Seems the most productive way of playing now that my rogue can't do her job anymore.

I'm not convinced that you cannot test on your own before letting us bear the brunt of any major change in game mechanics. It's pretty easy to put together a team of decently-geared toons amongst the Devs and Mods and run the maps like the rest of us do (and without that /killall command used). It'll then be apparent to you how useful your fix/nerf/change/whatever will be to the so-called balance of the game.

Let me state what others probably feel as well: I do not like being made a test subject for something that adversely affects my gameplay. Ideally one altruistic gracious person would say that oh, I am up to the task, I would do the dirty work so that the game improves from my sacrifice and data collection. Unfortunately, not all of us are like that. Most of us play on limited time and want to squeeze maximum enjoyment out of every precious minute spent in game. No one likes to be guinea pigs. Obviously, I would sing a different tune if I knew that I would be getting something positive out of this brief(?) Period of lousy gameplay. You have assured us something to that effect. However you have also said that you will not guarantee some return of the rogue's original power, and that (along with other recent events), does not inspire confidence.

Notice that my post has not been addressing the specifics of the rogue aimed shot fix, nor have I given suggestions on how to give rogues back what we have lost. I am attacking what I feel has been a flawed process in gameplay evaluation and adjustment. The manner in which changes are implemented and feedback is sourced just feels so disjointed and wrong. Changes are being implemented without due feedback collected and adequate preliminary testing (again, stating here that I do not buy into the claim that Devs cannot test stuff by themselves). When this happens, people start to lose faith that a proper consultative and evaluation process is taking place. This is why people are ranting.

I will end off his long post with a parting shot at the devs: one of you mentioned that you look at the game in terms of the numerous equations and lines of code that define the game's mechanics and influence the fine balance of gameplay. I plead with you to look beyond those numbers and codes and touch the game for a bit... feel what we feel and do what we do, much more often than you already are doing, because I feel (as others do) you do not play your own game enough. I have hardly made as emotional a post as this, and I suspect it will be edited for "less drama". But I want to continue to enjoy this game with my guildies and good friends, and I just hope you guys will change the way you evaluate the game and feedback in future.


Amen! That's why I was asking originally if our previous version of aimed shot could stay while developers come up with effective solutions. As of right now, rogues basically suffer while developers tiinker. If the first batch of tinkering doesn't get things right, then we will be waiting even longer.

[Saud]

Sometimes a bug should stay a bug
#Hexstaff
#Aimshot
#whatisnext

[kjed]

#RIP ROGUE 2016

Sent from my SM-E700H using Tapatalk

[jjperez27]

Nerf the hp of the rogue too op and nerf the dodge of the rogue too op and nerf the crit of the rogue too op!!!!!

[aneshsinghblu]

maybe this was a diversion to take away heat from the stats for plats (housing buffs)

[Tapash Bose]

To quote Justg in this comment on a locked thread (click HERE (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?353924-Rogues-don-t-pack-up-yet&p=2533031&viewfull=1#post2533031)): "Test or Dev environment is one thing, Live is completely another."

Please explain why getting Live experience should entail compromising game experience for the entire rogue population.

One last thing. I made these comments because I've played a rogue for almost three years (my third AL anniversary is in August). I love playing rogue and I care about this game and the friends I made here. I wouldn't have expressed my concerns and opinions if this is a game I'm prepared to ditch the moment it stops being fun. My views aren't drama-mongering provocations. They're based on my experience playing rogue through bad build, poor gear, skeleton stable to where I am now. You ask us to be professional in our communication with you regarding this issue. I ask you to be more transparent in your reasoning and propositions and to take our views into consideration.

OMG ..if I say this at my work ...then I wont have to wait next day for the pink slip :)..so what are developed software for?...running in developer environments only...lmaaao
What I can see is that current set is hellbent on destroying whatever good the game had..ofc developed so meticulously by the older developers :S
They always refer to data and analytics..but what good is the data and maths if it fails so hopelessly in live scenario ?..
The fact that so much data and mathematics for the last few months is delivering nothing other than bugs speaks a lot about the competency level :)...
Somehow it seems a set of unruly children have got hold of a new toy which they could not understand...and the expected is happening :D

[extrapayah]

i agree that aimed shot had way too wide damage range, between its lowest and its highest, i tried some runs, and i still have equal damage on my lowest damage range prior to the fix.
if it's a fix that has goal to reduce game's dependence on luck, then i'm supporting it, and i hope, devs will also apply it to every aspect of the game, not only to rogue's aimed shot damage range.

next thing to put into consideration is, does the current rogue with new aimed shot can still do the role as intended?

[Niixed]

Whew, this thread is tldr for players on hiatus, but I'll inject one thing... I'm happy Aimed Shot is finally getting looked at. If I'm reading between the lines a little, it sounds like Aimed Shot is *starting* to truly break the game. I bet it has made designing bosses and maps for all three classes almost impossible because rogues take out bosses (and mobs!) too damn fast compared, esp compared to the other classes. The power progression of Aimed Shot is not linear, but exponential, and it has outpaced mages and warriors too much now. I don't think devs would want to tackle this subject unless they absolutely HAD to. Players nerves are already frayed, and I think Devs know that better than anyone. I can say with absolute certainty that Devs do not want to nerf anything! If AS gets nerfed, it's because they had no other choice.

I'm guessing the solution will be to bring AS' damage progression curve back in line with the other two classes. Like I advocated a last year, power levels of the highest and lowest classes should always be within plus or minus 5% of the "medium" class (mages) in order to achieve game balance.

However, I strongly urge Devs to make a HUGE PR effort to smooth things over, almost nothing is more sensitive or sacred in this game than Aimed Shot. Seriously!

[Fightbeast]

Whew, this thread is tldr for players on hiatus, but I'll inject one thing... I'm happy Aimed Shot is finally getting looked at. If I'm reading between the lines a little, it sounds like Aimed Shot is *starting* to truly break the game. I bet it has made designing bosses and maps for all three classes almost impossible because rogues take out bosses (and mobs!) too damn fast compared, esp compared to the other classes. The power progression of Aimed Shot is not linear, but exponential, and it has outpaced mages and warriors too much now. I don't think devs would want to tackle this subject unless they absolutely HAD to. Players nerves are already frayed, and I think Devs know that better than anyone. I can say with absolute certainty that Devs do not want to nerf anything! If AS gets nerfed, it's because they had no other choice.

I'm guessing the solution will be to bring AS' damage progression curve back in line with the other two classes. Like I advocated a last year, power levels of the highest and lowest classes should always be within plus or minus 5% of the "medium" class (mages) in order to achieve game balance.

However, I strongly urge Devs to make a HUGE PR effort to smooth things over, almost nothing is more sensitive or sacred in this game than Aimed Shot. Seriously!
I restrained myself from commenting on any of the posts and threads regarding the AS nerf. But probably I can't.
So you look like a mage who has an idea that rogues take out mobs and bosses faster then the other two classes. Well if you are of that opinion my first response is you are doing a poor job as a mage in killing mobs. Thank you. Second during the last armor nerf we were told since we are 'damage' class we don't need to be 'tanky', loads of our mages and tanks supported this and said that our only job is to help with mobs and bosses since we do the highest damage, not to survive but depend on wars to help with that ; but now we can't actually do what you wanted last nerf. If you are done with your ignorant comments go and check the game. Play with a rogue and check how much DMG they can pull over elite bosses using aimed.
And if people like you think that aimed is broken and all the other skills that make a rog tick, I say take away all our skill set and give us new ones with our original armor, ability to annihilate huge mobs, tank and the chance to show that we as a class will still do better then the others because we are hard workers, expensive and determined. Multiple nerfs over the year but we still play in the hope of a silver lining at the end of it all.
Right now I have just spoken on a pve basis, PvP is yet another story.

[intizamfamily888]

Btw the lvl 51 myth staff does wayy more damage with the proc than a rogue with unnerfed AS at a whole bossfight.

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[Zeus]

Btw the lvl 51 myth staff does wayy more damage with the proc than a rogue with unnerfed AS at a whole bossfight.

Gesendet von meinem ASUS_Z00AD mit Tapatalk

Yes! Lol, however this isn't considered broken. I think we need to ease off on super powerful procs. It's a very luck based bandaid.

[Niixed]

I restrained myself from commenting on any of the posts and threads regarding the AS nerf. But probably I can't.
So you look like a mage who has an idea that rogues take out mobs and bosses faster then the other two classes. Well if you are of that opinion my first response is you are doing a poor job as a mage in killing mobs. Thank you. Second during the last armor nerf we were told since we are 'damage' class we don't need to be 'tanky', loads of our mages and tanks supported this and said that our only job is to help with mobs and bosses since we do the highest damage, not to survive but depend on wars to help with that ; but now we can't actually do what you wanted last nerf. If you are done with your ignorant comments go and check the game. Play with a rogue and check how much DMG they can pull over elite bosses using aimed.
And if people like you think that aimed is broken and all the other skills that make a rog tick, I say take away all our skill set and give us new ones with our original armor, ability to annihilate huge mobs, tank and the chance to show that we as a class will still do better then the others because we are hard workers, expensive and determined. Multiple nerfs over the year but we still play in the hope of a silver lining at the end of it all.
Right now I have just spoken on a pve basis, PvP is yet another story.

Looks can be deceiving, you should refrain from insulting others on the forums. How do you know that Rogues won't come out of this in a better position than they were before? I sincerely hope it turns out that way, because Rogues need it. Haven't devs been exceptionally clear that they want balance and they are willing to modify Rogue other skills as well to ensure that happens? Why, then, would they torpedo that balance by nerfing Rogues to oblivion? I maintain that devs have deliberately put off touching Aimed Shot as long as possible because it is such a sensitive topic. Both Carapace AND Vroom have been assigned to this single project and usually only one Dev leads on something like this. That's a lot of brain power and it speaks of how important Justg feels it is.

[Zeus]

they've already told us the AS nerf will be buffed slightly. Nott to the pre nerf AS power but enough to still see rogues as a viable class. As of now playing a rogue isn't feasible.

Also I don't think bightfeast is trying to insult you when he calls you ignorant.

Developers haven't touched AS till it was brought to the limelight in a thread that got locked, this was solely due to PvP "drama", the aftermath of the nerf is a class that is pretty much useless for PvE.


Now we wait for further class nerfs and buffs till the end of next month Cx

So the current state of rogue is this:

1. Loses to Sorcerer in 1v1.
2. Loses to Warrior in 1v1.
3. Has no place in a team fight where opposing team is all warriors and sorcerers.
4. Has no place in PvE.
5. Looks amazing in the new hot tub in Housing 2.0

We will see what happens after the hotfix, but I am more than confident that rogue is still going to be in a weaker place then when they were before touching AS (which is not cool at all, so many people have been stating that rogue is the weakest class).

[Ioyalistic]

My pierce hits harder then a full charged aim shot, lol.


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[Melthyz]

Guess it's warriors' time to shine under the sun. I'm okay with that actually, they've been put in the closet for several seasons already.

[Zeus]

Guess it's warriors' time to shine under the sun. I'm okay with that actually, they've been put in the closet for several seasons already.

Sorcerers are more powerful than warriors unless the sorcerer does not know what he or she is doing.

[Ireliaa]

So the current state of rogue is this:

1. Loses to Sorcerer in 1v1.
2. Loses to Warrior in 1v1.
3. Has no place in a team fight where opposing team is all warriors and sorcerers.
4. Has no place in PvE.
5. Looks amazing in the new hot tub in Housing 2.0

We will see what happens after the hotfix, but I am more than confident that rogue is still going to be in a weaker place then when they were before touching AS (which is not cool at all, so many people have been stating that rogue is the weakest class).

well rogue already had no place in clash pre aim nerf, this just made it certain, its highly diffres from" developer environment" they just check vs situation i believe
and bathtub is well only female character in game maybe its our only use now

i love how mages here thanking it was necessary update well they dont want any rogues in game apparently

i cant push myself to login anymore

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

I'm going to close this thread now, I've created a new post specifically about the Aimed Shot changes here:

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?354819-Design-Blog-Updates-to-Aimed-Shot