Hey Rogues, What's Missing???

[Niixed]

I've read through a majority of the complaints from Rogue players, but I still feel at a loss as to how exactly Rogue players think their characters should be performing. The numbers look good and the data seems to say that Rogues are balanced, yet so many players feel the absolute opposite of that.

Two basic issues are at the forefront of most recent complaints.

1) Rogues lack firepower

2) Rogues die too easily

If you believe STS does not understand, then help them (and me!) understand. Please give VERY SPECIFIC examples of how exactly you believe your Rogue character is failing to meet your expectations. Describe maps, situations, bosses, mobs, battles, skills, upgrades, specializations, character stats, time, level, etc. give as much detail as you can so it can be understood clearly.

Note: Please, no dramatic declarations about how rogues are totally useless now and you're going to quit the game, etc!

[Carapace]

Please try to keep this thread civil in regards to what Niixed is asking and it will be more useful for us to read through. Sometimes these types of threads become very A vs B, or class vs class and heated so from a developer standpoint I want to preemptively state that it's a lot more useful for us if the points are clear, examples are given, and the thread doesn't derail into something uncivil.

Thanks!
-Carapace

[Avaree]

JS i'm happy. :)

If rogues are given anymore power, it becomes rogue legends again. I am completely happy from a rogues stand point.

:)

[extrapayah]

the balance between pve and pvp won't be reached, because of extreme difference in potions spam

[Zeus]

Okay so I tested rogue against a warrior and mage scenario and it still does not stand a chance. It was not my team either, considering that my team was compromised of the team that I use for tournaments. The strategies were solid, but nothing works to help a rogue live against a pure warrior and sorcerer team. Therefore, rogues are still an outcast in PvP unless there is a rogue on the other side.

The spike damage which gave rogues a meager chance before is gone as well. So, we need some sort of adjustment. If developers could take a look what exactly happens to a rogue against a warrior and sorcerer stack...that would be great. Essentially, all the warriors and sorcerers have to do is shield and rush the other team with a rogue in it. There is nothing the rogue can do to win. The sorcerers cannot be slowed, due to the shields, and nobody dies during the rush either because of the multiple shields and multiple heals.

[Visiting]

From a PVP standpoint, I think STS should retest the damage nerfs to find a more balanced nerf % now that rogues can't crit as high as they once did.

[Fredystern]

Not bad at all i was using rogue in 47 for pvp sometimes and could 1shot a mage, i was only use arc dagger, underhul set, mythic belt, arc ring full fort mind, and pp full fort mind too

[Zeus]

Not bad at all i was using rogue in 47 for pvp sometimes and could 1shot a mage, i was only use arc dagger, underhul set, mythic belt, arc ring full fort mind, and pp full fort mind too


Yes in a 1v1 its fine, but if you try to fight a team consisting of warrior and Mages while your team has warriors, Mage's and rogues, then good luck.

[Lunarpvp]

Yes in a 1v1 its fine, but if you try to fight a team consisting of warrior and Mages while your team has warriors, Mage's and rogues, then good luck.

Yep you will die. NO hope NO chances NO way

[ilhanna]

I appreciate your starting the thread (giving STS an example?) but frankly after the recent uproar I have jaundiced opinion about forumers playing STS advocate/spokesperson especially since the situation is prone to inconsistency, with STS locking threads to consolidate feedback and the usual "stop crying, suck it up and move on" thread popping up.

But to answer your question, I was happy with the rogue situation before the recent update. The new gears, especially the belt and weapons, are giving me hope that even if I'll never be able to acquire the Antignome set my survival and usefulness in elite Underhul, where I want to be able to run even more without breaking my bank for ankh cost, will improve.

I haven't tested the update since I've yet to feel motivated to log on, but I'm impressed with the speed with which they implement their proposed solution for aimed shot. But in future I hope they consider this feedback (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?353888-Design-Blog-On-Balance-Adjusting-items-not-working-as-intended&p=2534188) on how to evaluate and tinker with the game with enough transparency up front to allay panic and confusion and without having to compromise player experience.

[intrepd]

The damage rogues do is fine now but there is no way to survive against mage stack, even if your a maxed rogue its almost impossible, once horn bubble is out youre dead in just few seconds


-Talking about clash

[konafez]

I think the problems with any class buff/nerf is this

Sts hopes for the best from everyone and that just falls on its face..when you consider any nerf/buff you need to take into account the worst things that can happen ..cause let me tell you..... 5 seconds after it goes into affect people are trying to work out a way to exploit it to there advantage

And this doesn't just go for the changes to rogues..it goes for any change ..if people can stack/farm/plot/scheme then they will ..just face it..its going to happen

I think sts should take a hope for the best, plan for the worst attitude to any planned changes..

Most of the players I know are really great people that will just work with what that have ...but some..oh some of them you give them a inch..that will take the whole yard stick..then hit you over the head with it

[soon]

From the point of view of the PVE, I wanted skills that increase my survivability.

This could be done through improvements in skills Trap and Shadow veil.

In trap, snare significantly. Pets Ethyl and Titan make this work better. Even the event pets Slobber and Nilbog. The mastery of reducing the cooldown of 2 sec does not help much. The trap remains on the ground long enough to reload skill.

In Shadow veil, improving armor gain. Because of the elixir of doll the party wins 15% armor. Giving only 5% armor by rogue Skill. The same goes for using a Nekro or pet that 15% of damage. The gain with damage is 3% or 0%. It might be better to put the armor gain as the mastery of life warrior. Winning with increasing level.

A dev made a comment about the weapon proc make strong character, but he remains weak. In my opinion, what has kept alive rogues is the proc of arcane dagger and not your skills.


ps. not to talking to nerf anything.

[Fredystern]

Yes in a 1v1 its fine, but if you try to fight a team consisting of warrior and Mages while your team has warriors, Mage's and rogues, then good luck.

We won :3 but i didnt know the PvP conditon in 56 hehe, but as i saw from community seems like rogue was very rarely participate on a clash

[Kharjojo]

We won :3 but i didnt know the PvP conditon in 56 hehe, but as i saw from community seems like rogue was very rarely participate on a clash

We're seeing tanks/mages/korruption stacks in end game nowadays, in all honesty is really hard to let a rogue partecipate if you want to win against this type of team-up.

[nightmaresmoke]

From the point of view of the PVE, I wanted skills that increase my survivability.

This could be done through improvements in skills Trap and Shadow veil.

In trap, snare significantly. Pets Ethyl and Titan make this work better. Even the event pets Slobber and Nilbog. The mastery of reducing the cooldown of 2 sec does not help much. The trap remains on the ground long enough to reload skill.

In Shadow veil, improving armor gain. Because of the elixir of doll the party wins 15% armor. Giving only 5% armor by rogue Skill. The same goes for using a Nekro or pet that 15% of damage. The gain with damage is 3% or 0%. It might be better to put the armor gain as the mastery of life warrior. Winning with increasing level.

A dev made a comment about the weapon proc make strong character, but he remains weak. In my opinion, what has kept alive rogues is the proc of arcane dagger and not your skills.


ps. not to talking to nerf anything.
Yes everything now is all about how much you can proc your weapon.

Sent from my Lenovo A7000-a using Tapatalk

[PEMA]

I think if rogues are given more survivability, it might be a fair fight against other class.

[Safiras]

I have no issues with the rogue as it is in PvE. With the Aimed Shot re-adjusted to around its original power, I can resume my role as a single target DPS fairly well again.

In PvP, 1v1 I'm really lousy at, but I do tend to win vs mages more than I do vs tanks. I will skip the discussion about 1v1 vs a tank at endgame. For a team vs team clash, previous posters brought up the lack of viability of including rogues in clashes, especially if the opposing team is filled with mages and tanks. Why is that?

- rogues cannot overcome a tank stack: rogues do not have a shield that provides invulnerability or a skill that markedly reduces incoming damage. This means that with more mages and tanks on the opposing side, there are less targets with a wide open window of vulnerability

- It is difficult to kill a tank quickly in a clash, no matter what other people may say. With Nekro/Jugg/HoR/feeble there is a very small window where your skills can hit hard enough to bring a tank down. With increasing numbers of tanks in the team the window gets even small because the tanks can cover each other well with enough skill and practice. Rogues cannot overcome this, and will eventually die because they run out of mana or get sucked into multiple axes. And I haven't even talked about the lava proc of the Arc sword.

- Mages can partially counter a tank stack because they have two things: mana heal and a shield that provides invulnerability and potentially absorbs a lot of damage. This also means that they have a small window of weakness, though during this window they are extremely vulnerable and will die very easily. They also have Fireball which on good timing can stun a tank and widen the window of vulnerability of a tank enough to nuke him and bring him down.

In order to bring back the rogue as a relevant member of the party, there must be either an incentive for more rogues to play, or there must be a disincentive for class stacking in teams. There is no incentive for more than one rogue per team at the moment because apart from high damage (which is nowadays easily countered by Jugg/Mage shield/Horn of Renew/feeble skills), rogues bring little else to the table. Buffing rogues in order to provide an incentive would be a huge mistake as it would unbalance PvE which as I have stated above is in a happy equilibrium currently.

So the best option would be disincentivizing stacking of multiple toons of a single class in a team. How would this work? My proposal involves weakening of a specific stat associated with the specific class, if there is more than one toon of that class in a team. I could give examples. For instance:
- more than one rogue in team: crit reduction by 5% per teammate for each additional rogue in the team.
- more than one mage in team: damage reduction of 5% for each additional mage in the team
- more than one tank in team: armor reduction of 5% for each member of the team

Note that these are examples. I have no way of telling you if a 5% damage reduction is as disabling as a 5% armor reduction. However, my idea was to take the most prominent stat of a stackable class, and nerf it across the team such that the entire team would suffer because they chose to stack tanks/mages/rogues. For instance, since tank stacks are notoriously hard to bring down, nerfing the armor of the team would make the whole team die a lot faster and discourage the idea of tank stacking to preserve the team's armor.

This is just one idea I have, and I'm sure it's not perfect, nor will it be universally received. I would like to hear your views as well as alternative suggestions as to how to reduce class stacking in PvP and making it more friendly to rogues.

[Intous]

IMO, the very concept of rogues is to be stronger in vs and weak in clashes, and I'm pretty sure if we give rogues a way to become invulnerable, or hard to take down, rogues will literally become impeccable, I mean each class has its own role to fufill, and a rogue's role is to take down an enemy in a short period, also, I'm pretty sure the thing that's hindering balance these days is the Dragon hunter's sword proc, which made the warrior class an impossible wall to overcome for any other class.

[Zulgath]

If we could get a weapon that doesnt need to attack mobs/players to proc

That elondrian gun l41 did shield by only spamming normal attack, or ghoulish daggs gave us some kind of shield without need to attack the mob/player

So If future weapons had some kind of non attack just spamming auto attack proc, would be helpful imo..

[konafez]

I think sts should get someone to test the items, bufs/nerfs , pets, weapons before they are released for mass consumption

But this persons one job is to find every devious and maniacal use that someone could put these things to

Someone dark and evil, someone who can sit brooding in his evil stronghold petting a fluffy white cat and trying to put laser beams on sharks

Someone who sniffs glue and has the scalp of every girl he ever dated in his basement

Someone like vroom

Someone that can find the issues when people stack teams or block or stack pets or any other devious use a item/nerf/buff/pet can be put to

(Just kidding vroom...........I don't think you sniff glue)

P.s. anyone but seo ..seo is about as maniacal as a box of kittens

[Ireliaa]

JS i'm happy. :)

If rogues are given anymore power, it becomes rogue legends again. I am completely happy from a rogues stand point.

:)
thats on pve perspective only;
rogue has no palce in pvp
pve people are the only ones that are happy

[Avaree]

JS i'm happy. :)

If rogues are given anymore power, it becomes rogue legends again. I am completely happy from a rogues stand point.

:)

thats on pve perspective only;
rogue has no palce in pvp
pve people are the only ones that are happy

I do think the dev team is taking notes, this is why this thread is here. They are committed to fixing whats broken. They need to hear constructive feed back from both types of environmental players.

[Ireliaa]

I do think the dev team is taking notes, this is why this thread is here. They are committed to fixing whats broken. They need to hear constructive feed back from both types of environmental players.

im not trying to argue , just a friendly advice, just test yourself in pvp environment before coming to conculusion of rogue is perfectly fine

[Deathclaw]

Rouges are still the best at timed runs, boss kills, 1vs1 what more do you want ?

[Avaree]

JS i'm happy. :)

If rogues are given anymore power, it becomes rogue legends again. I am completely happy from a rogues stand point.

:)

thats on pve perspective only;
rogue has no palce in pvp
pve people are the only ones that are happy
I do think the dev team is taking notes, this is why this thread is here. They are committed to fixing whats broken. They need to hear constructive feed back from both types of environmental players.



im not trying to argue , just a friendly advice, just test yourself in pvp environment before coming to conculusion of rogue is perfectly fine

Re-read what I wrote above... Please dont jump to conclusions (based on my happiness) that I think rogues are perfectly fine.

As far as pvp goes, I did pvp after the hotfix. I am not a frequent flyer there, so I cannot give an experienced opinion.

[intrepd]

I have no issues with the rogue as it is in PvE. With the Aimed Shot re-adjusted to around its original power, I can resume my role as a single target DPS fairly well again.

In PvP, 1v1 I'm really lousy at, but I do tend to win vs mages more than I do vs tanks. I will skip the discussion about 1v1 vs a tank at endgame. For a team vs team clash, previous posters brought up the lack of viability of including rogues in clashes, especially if the opposing team is filled with mages and tanks. Why is that?

- rogues cannot overcome a tank stack: rogues do not have a shield that provides invulnerability or a skill that markedly reduces incoming damage. This means that with more mages and tanks on the opposing side, there are less targets with a wide open window of vulnerability

- It is difficult to kill a tank quickly in a clash, no matter what other people may say. With Nekro/Jugg/HoR/feeble there is a very small window where your skills can hit hard enough to bring a tank down. With increasing numbers of tanks in the team the window gets even small because the tanks can cover each other well with enough skill and practice. Rogues cannot overcome this, and will eventually die because they run out of mana or get sucked into multiple axes. And I haven't even talked about the lava proc of the Arc sword.

- Mages can partially counter a tank stack because they have two things: mana heal and a shield that provides invulnerability and potentially absorbs a lot of damage. This also means that they have a small window of weakness, though during this window they are extremely vulnerable and will die very easily. They also have Fireball which on good timing can stun a tank and widen the window of vulnerability of a tank enough to nuke him and bring him down.

In order to bring back the rogue as a relevant member of the party, there must be either an incentive for more rogues to play, or there must be a disincentive for class stacking in teams. There is no incentive for more than one rogue per team at the moment because apart from high damage (which is nowadays easily countered by Jugg/Mage shield/Horn of Renew/feeble skills), rogues bring little else to the table. Buffing rogues in order to provide an incentive would be a huge mistake as it would unbalance PvE which as I have stated above is in a happy equilibrium currently.

So the best option would be disincentivizing stacking of multiple toons of a single class in a team. How would this work? My proposal involves weakening of a specific stat associated with the specific class, if there is more than one toon of that class in a team. I could give examples. For instance:
- more than one rogue in team: crit reduction by 5% per teammate for each additional rogue in the team.
- more than one mage in team: damage reduction of 5% for each additional mage in the team
- more than one tank in team: armor reduction of 5% for each member of the team

Note that these are examples. I have no way of telling you if a 5% damage reduction is as disabling as a 5% armor reduction. However, my idea was to take the most prominent stat of a stackable class, and nerf it across the team such that the entire team would suffer because they chose to stack tanks/mages/rogues. For instance, since tank stacks are notoriously hard to bring down, nerfing the armor of the team would make the whole team die a lot faster and discourage the idea of tank stacking to preserve the team's armor.

This is just one idea I have, and I'm sure it's not perfect, nor will it be universally received. I would like to hear your views as well as alternative suggestions as to how to reduce class stacking in PvP and making it more friendly to rogues.


To be honest i'd say that rogues dont need more armor or damage but there must be a class restriction in PVP
for example CTF only 2 per class, tdm is like if there is 2 tanks then the rest 2 must be a rogue and mage, only 2 with the same class and rest are different for tdm, just to make rogues helpful again in clashes.

class restriction would be the best idea since mage stack is real now in PVP.

[Zylx]

In the past few years, ive noticed with any issue, it only takes one carefully-worded piece of feedback from a well known member of the community and then players who have no idea what is decide to conform to the curve without testing for themselves.

There was a behavioral experiment once conducted by a group of scientists. 5 monkeys were placed in a large cage, with a ladder placed in the middle and some bananas placed on top of the ladder. Each time a monkey climbed the ladder, the scientists would spray the other monkeys with cold water. Eventually, if a monkey climbed the ladder to get to the bananas, the others would attack the monkey. After a while, the monkeys did not climb the ladder despite this temptation.

The scientists then replaced one of the monkeys with a different monkey, and that monkey climbed the ladder and got attacked. One by one, the other monkeys were replaced by new monkeys, and they kept getting attacked by the rest of them. The monkeys that replaced the old group partook in the beatings as well, even though none of them were sprayed with water.

People tend to naturally conform with others despite their lack of knowledge with the situations. Most of these people who are complaining have no clue what they are talking about, and are basing their conclusions on other people's statements whom also have no idea what they are talking about.

Whether something is good or bad, it's all relative. If you get people who never paid attention to detail, they wouldnt be able to tell the difference.

[Kingofninjas]

Simply limit ctf to no more than 2 of a class per team. Anything else will have too many unintended side effects. I do not know what can be done about tdm, but rogues are much better off there than in ctf.

[Universalpro]

I m not aware about the hot fix and i m not really a person who understands detailed technical points
But i can say this, i pvped before event and i didnt pvp during the event and i just pvped now and in all honesty rogues do appear to be useless now, especially in clashes if they v/s warr/mage stacks
Idk what has changed but i liked it before, it was balanced it is far too easy to kill rogues now

As for pve, it seems more balanced now

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[Croak]

Bluntly put, most here have the "monkey see, monkey do" syndrome?
In the past few years, ive noticed with any issue, it only takes one carefully-worded piece of feedback from a well known member of the community and then players who have no idea what is decide to conform to the curve without testing for themselves.

There was a behavioral experiment once conducted by a group of scientists. 5 monkeys were placed in a large cage, with a ladder placed in the middle and some bananas placed on top of the ladder. Each time a monkey climbed the ladder, the scientists would spray the other monkeys with cold water. Eventually, if a monkey climbed the ladder to get to the bananas, the others would attack the monkey. After a while, the monkeys did not climb the ladder despite this temptation.

The scientists then replaced one of the monkeys with a different monkey, and that monkey climbed the ladder and got attacked. One by one, the other monkeys were replaced by new monkeys, and they kept getting attacked by the rest of them. The monkeys that replaced the old group partook in the beatings as well, even though none of them were sprayed with water.

People tend to naturally conform with others despite their lack of knowledge with the situations. Most of these people who are complaining have no clue what they are talking about, and are basing their conclusions on other people's statements whom also have no idea what they are talking about.

Whether something is good or bad, it's all relative. If you get people who never paid attention to detail, they wouldnt be able to tell the difference.

[Terminhater]

Rogues r aight in PvE, it's just a PvP thang.

Mebeh when rogue enters PvP it gets buffed to compete, but only in PvP.

[Ireliaa]

In the past few years, ive noticed with any issue, it only takes one carefully-worded piece of feedback from a well known member of the community and then players who have no idea what is decide to conform to the curve without testing for themselves.

There was a behavioral experiment once conducted by a group of scientists. 5 monkeys were placed in a large cage, with a ladder placed in the middle and some bananas placed on top of the ladder. Each time a monkey climbed the ladder, the scientists would spray the other monkeys with cold water. Eventually, if a monkey climbed the ladder to get to the bananas, the others would attack the monkey. After a while, the monkeys did not climb the ladder despite this temptation.

The scientists then replaced one of the monkeys with a different monkey, and that monkey climbed the ladder and got attacked. One by one, the other monkeys were replaced by new monkeys, and they kept getting attacked by the rest of them. The monkeys that replaced the old group partook in the beatings as well, even though none of them were sprayed with water.

People tend to naturally conform with others despite their lack of knowledge with the situations. Most of these people who are complaining have no clue what they are talking about, and are basing their conclusions on other people's statements whom also have no idea what they are talking about.

Whether something is good or bad, it's all relative. If you get people who never paid attention to detail, they wouldnt be able to tell the difference.

who are you throwing the stones at be more spesific, there are facts, not blind following and its been going on for a while. Assuming peoples experience from forum green bars is just plain bias

its a fact that on pvp mage and warr stacking ruling the game and team with rogue almost certainly losing, except the other team have no idea what they are doing. You dont need 70k kills for that just hop on some matches and you will find out soon enough
there is an issue this season with clash team balance and its pretty known for a while

only problem here is mages and warriors involving and saying they are fine or too OP etc. they may be the ones who that have no idea what they are talking about, they are the ones whos thanking aim shot nerfs etc

[Ireliaa]

Rogues damage output has notthing to do with the trouble they have finding a spot in organised clashes. There was quite a long post by safiras(on some or the other thread) about this.

Reinstating AS to the nuke status it was before wouldn't have solved the issues rogue have in PvP.

I agree, issue is the survivability of other 2 clases imo.(when stacked or combined together) One shot kill a mage means one shot kill a rogue also and its not fun its ping war. I can only report and issue i am not eligable to advise because i cant take the responsibility of outcome
but a test server would be nice for it to balance things out wihout drama

[Lunarpvp]

I think sts should get someone to test the items, bufs/nerfs , pets, weapons before they are released for mass consumption

But this persons one job is to find every devious and maniacal use that someone could put these things to

Someone dark and evil, someone who can sit brooding in his evil stronghold petting a fluffy white cat and trying to put laser beams on sharks

Someone who sniffs glue and has the scalp of every girl he ever dated in his basement

Someone like vroom

Someone that can find the issues when people stack teams or block or stack pets or any other devious use a item/nerf/buff/pet can be put to

(Just kidding vroom...........I don't think you sniff glue)

P.s. anyone but seo ..seo is about as maniacal as a box of kittens

I vote Gary. Revenge of the rogues :p

[Tapash Bose]

This is from pve perspective...
I am not a very op rogue but i feel in tougher elites(underhul 2 and 3) I am useless wo the proc of the arcane sword :)..If the arcane sword does not proc I m dead :)
Nothing with skill...its solely the proc :),,any of my skill cannot stun the mobs
As I said I may be wrong and if I am the only one feeling like this then please ignore the next part :)
But if majority feels the same then truly brainstorming needs to me done how to get out from the proc dependability...
Unless there is a true way of survival (for rogue even if for a short period of time to deal the expected damage) based on your stats and your skill wo the help of proc..dont think any class balance can ever be reached :)...procs should be there to help like the good old frost bow or elon bow...or even the glintstone bows...but should not be so powerful that my entire survivability depends on it...

[Zylx]

who are you throwing the stones at be more spesific, there are facts, not blind following and its been going on for a while. Assuming peoples experience from forum green bars is just plain bias

its a fact that on pvp mage and warr stacking ruling the game and team with rogue almost certainly losing, except the other team have no idea what they are doing. You dont need 70k kills for that just hop on some matches and you will find out soon enough
there is an issue this season with clash team balance and its pretty known for a while

only problem here is mages and warriors involving and saying they are fine or too OP etc. they may be the ones who that have no idea what they are talking about, they are the ones whos thanking aim shot nerfs etc

Im not throwing stones at anyone specifically. Im just stating a basic psychological tendency that people naturally have that clearly takes place on the forums when something changes. At this point, i believe the hype over this issue supercedes the actual issue itself, considering the people who blatantly insulted and raged over spacetime's decision and against the players who opposed this overblown situation and toxic attitude.

[Ireliaa]

Im not throwing stones at anyone specifically. Im just stating a basic psychological tendency that people naturally have that clearly takes place on the forums when something changes. At this point, i believe the hype over this issue supercedes the actual issue itself, considering the people who blatantly insulted and raged over spacetime's decision and against the players who opposed this overblown situation and toxic attitude.

well then the aim was nerfed it wasnt certain it will revert and get fix like this and compensation also wasnt certain. People who play rogues got emotional because it seemed like rogue class was dying

it wasnt following someone, everyone was against and shocked, ofc people rant because many had already enough with nerf stuff on their class and how can you appreciate a change like that after all that, a change like that was indeed requiring an armor for the devs

please dont assume people are like sheep or "monkey" that they only follows someone known, thats a bit of insult. Everyone has a right to express their feelings and thoughts as well as well as like or agree on others opinions

that agreeing thanks generally because someone wrties the thing first that many other had in their minds but couldnt put it well.

[Zylx]

well then the aim was nerfed it wasnt certain it will revert and get fix like this and compensation also wasnt certain. People who play rogues got emotional because it seemed like rogue class was dying

it wasnt following someone, everyone was against and shocked, ofc people rant because many had already enough with nerf stuff on their class and how can you appreciate a change like that after all that, a change like that was indeed requiring an armor for the devs

please dont assume people are like sheep or "monkey" that they only follows someone known, thats a bit of insult. Everyone has a right to express their feelings and thoughts as well as well as like or agree on others opinions

that agreeing thanks generally because someone wrties the thing first that many other had in their minds but couldnt put it well.
There might be some people who perceive the change as detrimental, but it is in no way justifiable with such an angry and insulting reaction. Im tired of all this toxicity that surmises with these kinds of situations.

Humans are genetically related to monkeys, which basically make them primitive humans. The conformist and brainwashed behavior that we naturally share today are entwined deep within our genes that go as far back as the monkeys. It's an instinct. Monkeys are actually really behaviorally intelligent.

There are some people who base their assumptions on personal experiments, then there are people who base their assumptions on numbers, and then there are people who base their assumptions on the feedback generated from other people because they are led to believe that there is an issue. Basically, we have leaders and we have followers. Its reality.

Again, this toxic behavior and hostility is downright ridiculus and blown out of proportion. This hype is bigger than the actual issue.

[Niixed]

Ok from what I'm reading:

1) Overall, Rogue players feel very strongly that Rogues are performing poorly in PvP.


Rogues have no way of consistently overcoming the strengths of the other classes, regardless of the strategy employed
Rogues no longer excell in 1v1 battles.
Rogues are less useful in larger PvP battles
Rogues are finding themselves significantly less valued as members of a PvP team
The fun factor of playing a Rogue has taken a serious hit.

2) Overall, Rogue players feel PvE survivability could be modestly improved.

Am I accurate on this, or am I missing something else?

[soon]

This is from pve perspective...
I am not a very op rogue but i feel in tougher elites(underhul 2 and 3) I am useless wo the proc of the arcane sword :)..If the arcane sword does not proc I m dead :)
Nothing with skill...its solely the proc :),,any of my skill cannot stun the mobs
As I said I may be wrong and if I am the only one feeling like this then please ignore the next part :)
But if majority feels the same then truly brainstorming needs to me done how to get out from the proc dependability...
Unless there is a true way of survival (for rogue even if for a short period of time to deal the expected damage) based on your stats and your skill wo the help of proc..dont think any class balance can ever be reached :)...procs should be there to help like the good old frost bow or elon bow...or even the glintstone bows...but should not be so powerful that my entire survivability depends on it...


That's what I was talking about pve. I will not use the lv 46 arcana dagger forever. Exists a lv 56, now. Rogues below 46 can not use too. The proc dagger become my shield skill.

[Ireliaa]

Ok from what I'm reading:

1) Overall, Rogue players feel very strongly that Rogues are performing poorly in PvP.


Rogues have no way of consistently overcoming the strengths of the other classes, regardless of the strategy employed
Rogues no longer excell in 1v1 battles.
Rogues are less useful in larger PvP battles
Rogues are finding themselves significantly less valued as members of a PvP team
The fun factor of playing a Rogue has taken a serious hit.

2) Overall, Rogue players feel PvE survivability could be modestly improved

Am I accurate on this, or am I missing something else?

yes you are right on the spot

[Lunarpvp]

Ok from what I'm reading:

1) Overall, Rogue players feel very strongly that Rogues are performing poorly in PvP.


Rogues have no way of consistently overcoming the strengths of the other classes, regardless of the strategy employed
Rogues no longer excell in 1v1 battles.
Rogues are less useful in larger PvP battles
Rogues are finding themselves significantly less valued as members of a PvP team
The fun factor of playing a Rogue has taken a serious hit.

2) Overall, Rogue players feel PvE survivability could be modestly improved.

Am I accurate on this, or am I missing something else?

Yep, fix the Rogues.

[Avaree]

Ok from what I'm reading:

1) Overall, Rogue players feel very strongly that Rogues are performing poorly in PvP.


Rogues have no way of consistently overcoming the strengths of the other classes, regardless of the strategy employed
Rogues no longer excell in 1v1 battles.
Rogues are less useful in larger PvP battles
Rogues are finding themselves significantly less valued as members of a PvP team
The fun factor of playing a Rogue has taken a serious hit.

2) Overall, Rogue players feel PvE survivability could be modestly improved.

Am I accurate on this, or am I missing something else?

I would like shadow veil's upgrades, shadow absorbtion & masked presence to work properly with all pets. This would improve survivability not only for the rogue using this skill, but also the party mates' survivability.

[JesuisCharlie]

I don't play mainly the rogue but im surprise to see peoples write about the Smoke grenade..its my big regret on rogue actually!
This skill is probably one of the less play of the game but when you look the skills buffs seem crazy and its good either with bow or daggers and allow a better teamplay.

To me ( with my humble feeling), first, the POSITION OF THE GRENADE is to much RANDOM and to hard to launch properly unless sometimes the area is just.. random.
And second, the COOLDOWN between the cast of the skill and his ACTIVATION, all combined with the duration of 11seconds.
This skill was almost always play first season and even after, its why i chosed to play rogue but actually it seem a little "EXPIRED" regarding the NEW and deeper GAMEPLAY
For example, try to use it on glinstone, you will die before the explosion of the grenade :), another example is on kraken mines, its almost impossible to catch gunners with it. So in pvp it should be terrible lol.

In addition,
If you count the cooldown, the random area and the time to enter on the area (either minions and team mates) the skill isnt that good.
I would like to see a rogue aim it properly and it explod on impact, the best will be if its distance depend with the time we charged it With like a "short mod" and "rang mod (charged)" working like the SORCERER WINDMIL
thanks for reading.
Let me know what do you think :)

[Kingofninjas]

Ok from what I'm reading:

1) Overall, Rogue players feel very strongly that Rogues are performing poorly in PvP.


Rogues have no way of consistently overcoming the strengths of the other classes, regardless of the strategy employed
Rogues no longer excell in 1v1 battles.
Rogues are less useful in larger PvP battles
Rogues are finding themselves significantly less valued as members of a PvP team
The fun factor of playing a Rogue has taken a serious hit.

2) Overall, Rogue players feel PvE survivability could be modestly improved.

Am I accurate on this, or am I missing something else?

You.are right except about the 1 vs 1 battles. Currently it's a rock paper scissors scenario. Tanks eat rogues, rogues eat mages and mages eat tanks. I think this is as close to ideal as it will get.

[Kickxxxass]

Okay so I tested rogue against a warrior and mage scenario and it still does not stand a chance. It was not my team either, considering that my team was compromised of the team that I use for tournaments. The strategies were solid, but nothing works to help a rogue live against a pure warrior and sorcerer team. Therefore, rogues are still an outcast in PvP unless there is a rogue on the other side.

The spike damage which gave rogues a meager chance before is gone as well. So, we need some sort of adjustment

[QUOTE=Safiras;2535817]I have no issues with the rogue as it is in PvE. With the Aimed Shot re-adjusted to around its original power, I can resume my role as a single target DPS fairly well again.

In PvP, 1v1 I'm really lousy at, but I do tend to win vs mages more than I do vs tanks. I will skip the discussion about 1v1 vs a tank at endgame. For a team vs team clash, previous posters brought up the lack of viability of including rogues in clashes, especially if the opposing team is filled with mages and tanks. Why is that?

- rogues cannot overcome a tank stack: rogues do not have a shield that provides invulnerability or a skill that markedly reduces incoming damage. This means that with more mages and tanks on the opposing side, there are less targets with a wide open window of vulnerability

- It is difficult to kill a tank quickly in a clash, no matter what other people may say. With Nekro/Jugg/HoR/feeble there is a very small window where your skills can hit hard enough to bring a tank down. With increasing numbers of tanks in the team the window gets even small because the tanks can cover each other well with enough skill and practice. Rogues cannot overcome this, and will eventually die because they run out of mana or get sucked into multiple axes. And I haven't even talked about the lava proc of the Arc sword.

- Mages can partially counter a tank stack because they have two things: mana heal and a shield that provides invulnerability and potentially absorbs a lot of damage. This also means that they have a small window of weakness, though during this window they are extremely vulnerable and will die very easily. They also have Fireball which on good timing can stun a tank and widen the window of vulnerability of a tank enough to nuke him and bring him down.

In order to bring back the rogue as a relevant member of the party, there must be either an incentive for more rogues to play, or there must be a disincentive for class stacking in teams. There is no incentive for more than one rogue per team at the moment because apart from high damage (which is nowadays easily countered by Jugg/Mage shield/Horn of Renew/feeble skills), rogues bring little else to the table. Buffing rogues in order to provide an incentive would be a huge mistake as it would unbalance PvE which as I have stated above is in a happy equilibrium currently.

So the best option would be disincentivizing stacking of multiple toons of a single class in a team. How would this work? My proposal involves weakening of a specific stat associated with the specific class, if there is more than one toon of that class in a team. I could give examples. For instance:
- more than one rogue in team: crit reduction by 5% per teammate for each additional rogue in the team.
- more than one mage in team: damage reduction of 5% for each additional mage in the team
- more than one tank in team: armor reduction of 5% for each member of the team

Note that these are examples. I have no way of telling you if a 5% damage reduction is as disabling as a 5% armor reduction. However, my idea was to take the most prominent stat of a stackable class, and nerf it across the team such that the entire team would suffer because they chose to stack tanks/mages/rogues. For instance, since tank stacks are notoriously hard to bring down, nerfing the armor of the team would make the whole team die a lot faster and discourage the idea of tank stacking to preserve the team's armor.

This is just one idea I have, and I'm sure it's not perfect, nor will it be universally received. I would like to hear your views as well as alternative suggestions as to how to reduce class stacking in PvP and making it more friendly to rogues.

What ^ safiras said are great points but if STS can't do that there is an another way to fix this problem why not just make the stats of PVE and PVP different for rouge and other chars

And if rouges are happy with their pve power just gives routes a buff in pve in armor or damage reduction of thing of that sort this might work so it makes it that rouges are balanced making them happy :D

[Tapash Bose]

There might be some people who perceive the change as detrimental, but it is in no way justifiable with such an angry and insulting reaction. Im tired of all this toxicity that surmises with these kinds of situations.

Humans are genetically related to monkeys, which basically make them primitive humans. The conformist and brainwashed behavior that we naturally share today are entwined deep within our genes that go as far back as the monkeys. It's an instinct. Monkeys are actually really behaviorally intelligent.

There are some people who base their assumptions on personal experiments, then there are people who base their assumptions on numbers, and then there are people who base their assumptions on the feedback generated from other people because they are led to believe that there is an issue. Basically, we have leaders and we have followers. Its reality.

Again, this toxic behavior and hostility is downright ridiculus and blown out of proportion. This hype is bigger than the actual issue.

1.well human beings are genetically linked to monkeys but in case you forgot..there are generations and stages of evolution involved in between ...and just to remind...brain also evolved :).. So some of us has the right to feel insulted... anyways i m ignoring it as the ability to respect others is a virtue embedded in the gene..and not all individuals are born with the quality :)

2. Whether the change is not detrimental and the reaction is overblown is something let the devs/management take the decision. Like the same way u are expressing your opinion that the reaction is overblown from your perspective ...similarly another individual has the right to express the opposite weapon.We think we are in a democracy arent we ? OOh yes..thats another thing that separates human beings from monkeys...:D

3. I had witnessed a lot of obscene pleasure when rogue armor was nerfed...
But surprisingly all this intelligence and philosophy was missing when another class was asking for a buff in their powers for the last 2 years...saying they were unwanted in pve :)
Let me point out if you havent noticed not a single rogue spoke against that ..we dont really want anybody being nerfed.. :)...its bad for the overall health of the game...

And as a class we share the philosophy that the way to excel is to make your line longer..:)...greatness achieved by reducing others is not something we particularly relish on and consider honorable:)

4. If some of the reactions are strong..let the STS handle it if it was justified or not.Why some of us are grabbing this opportunity to pose themselves as leader ?
There is no shortcut to Leadership as is it again a virtue embedded and inborn...and we are certainly not monkeys who can decide our leaders by fighting and biting :)

[Zylx]

1.well human beings are genetically linked to monkeys but in case you forgot..there are generations and stages of evolution involved in between ...and just to remind...brain also evolved :).. So some of us has the right to feel insulted... anyways i m ignoring it as the ability to respect others is a virtue embedded in the gene..and not all individuals are born with the quality :)

I dont believe you read my post correctly. I said that monkeys are basically primitive humans. Their instinctive behaviors reflect on our own. I never said humans were as intelligent as monkeys. We just share common behaviors. This is in no way an insult or any means of disrespect... lol.

2. Whether the change is not detrimental and the reaction is overblown is something let the devs/management take the decision. Like the same way u are expressing your opinion that the reaction is overblown from your perspective ...similarly another individual has the right to express the opposite weapon.We think we are in a democracy arent we ? OOh yes..thats another thing that separates human beings from monkeys...:D

Again, you probably either didn't read my post, or you likely don't understand anything about psychology or the difference between right and wrong. Getting angry over a video game is really pointless. Throwing insults and using aggression as well is even more ridiculous. There are many different ways of conveying feedback without resorting to this kind of behavior.

3. I had witnessed a lot of obscene pleasure when rogue armor was nerfed...
But surprisingly all this intelligence and philosophy was missing when another class was asking for a buff in their powers for the last 2 years...saying they were unwanted in pve :)
Let me point out if you havent noticed not a single rogue spoke against that ..we dont really want anybody being nerfed.. :)...its bad for the overall health of the game...

And as a class we share the philosophy that the way to excel is to make your line longer..:)...greatness achieved by reducing others is not something we particularly relish on and consider honorable:)

Another pointless topic. Why worry about the past? Why does a period of attitude from years ago matter today? And again, why should i care?

4. If some of the reactions are strong..let the STS handle it if it was justified or not.Why some of us are grabbing this opportunity to pose themselves as leader ?
There is no shortcut to Leadership as is it again a virtue embedded and inborn...and we are certainly not monkeys who can decide our leaders by fighting and biting :)

It looks like you took your 2nd point, reworded it, and spit it out as your 4th. So again, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to determine that the hostility and aggression over something this petty is unnecessary.

My responses to your sarcastic replies are bolded above

[Kriticality]

Rogues are fine in pve. Still the rulers. I also don't think rogue survivability is the issue in pvp. It's the lack of damage. You should have a think twice approach before rushing a rogue if not in invulnerability. It's mages and tanks job to block rushes to rogue during other mages 2 sec invuln and players should be punished for reckless rushes and failed attempts. I think you can dismiss kdr and try giving rogues 75% of their damage at end game scaling for lower levels as opposed to 50% like the rest of us. We have so much healing and defenses at end game that it is manageable. Ofc it doesn't have to be 75% but some number higher than 50%. More armor will NOT help them in pvp honestly. Two or three mages can just storm the glass chica and she's gone. The rogue needs to be scarier and deadlier. I'll rush any rogue even solo most of the time. I shouldn't feel ok with this I don't think. They aren't scary anymore. If a rogue can isolate anyone off jugg or 2 sec invul it should be a very scary spot. Just my opinion though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Safiras]

Rogues are fine in pve. Still the rulers. I also don't think rogue survivability is the issue in pvp. It's the lack of damage. You should have a think twice approach before rushing a rogue if not in invulnerability. It's mages and tanks job to block rushes to rogue during other mages 2 sec invuln and players should be punished for reckless rushes and failed attempts. I think you can dismiss kdr and try giving rogues 75% of their damage at end game scaling for lower levels as opposed to 50% like the rest of us. We have so much healing and defenses at end game that it is manageable. Ofc it doesn't have to be 75% but some number higher than 50%. More armor will NOT help them in pvp honestly. Two or three mages can just storm the glass chica and she's gone. The rogue needs to be scarier and deadlier. I'll rush any rogue even solo most of the time. I shouldn't feel ok with this I don't think. They aren't scary anymore. If a rogue can isolate anyone off jugg or 2 sec invul it should be a very scary spot. Just my opinion though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is an interesting perspective and one I wouldn't mind testing out. However, outside of a proper clash game you would likely have mages crying about getting one-comboed through shield and rogues killing other rogues in one combo. I'm not sure if this is the best fix... but like I said, worth a try.

[Kriticality]

This is an interesting perspective and one I wouldn't mind testing out. However, outside of a proper clash game you would likely have mages crying about getting one-comboed through shield and rogues killing other rogues in one combo. I'm not sure if this is the best fix... but like I said, worth a try.

I think it must have to do with damage only. From another thread. And as I said it doesn't have to be 75%. But enough to make people think twice.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160717/93d4fe37fe44a9ae5bd5c0012a44d0b7.png


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Zeus]

I havent loved much this expansion but mages are out there, still complaining about how rogues can break shield easily.

Providing more damage to rogues will only reinstate rogues to the alpha PvP class position.

The role of rogues is to do damage - if they aren't doing that and if heals can outheal the damage, then there's no point of a rogue. Also, sorcerer isn't weak in any way or form. Gear for gear, an equal sorcerer will completely replace a rogue.

Sure, there are sorcerers that may still complain but either they are just not good or do not have the gear for the task.

[Kingofninjas]

I havent loved much this expansion but mages are out there, still complaining about how rogues can break shield easily.

Providing more damage to rogues will only reinstate rogues to the alpha PvP class position.

Shield should not be breaking. If it does break, then there is something wrong with the sorcerers gear. I will die before my shield breaks, and I am not overly geared. I don't use shield mastery either.

[faychen]

In Elite Southern Gate moment ago..
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160718/0b5467a4d4b0dcc87ff17a54759104ee.pnghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160718/ae31cf86a0786713d8e64eeadfb31f2c.png

I'm not complaining :-)
I enjoy random party though.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Zeus]

Pretty sure that's only for clash situation.

In a 1v1 situation as soon as a rogues damage is buffed the R/P/S situation will become non existent. Probably even make the mages to the role they were before mana-slaves for the other two classes.



Shield almost always broke in 41-46 expansion for me, I was maybe slightly undergeared(for pvp) but even then it shouldn't have been breaking so easily. this expansion I do think mages fare better when it comes to PvP, providing a damage buff to rogues will make sure mages become the favourite class to pick on again. Even though I have no interest in PvP right now, I don't want to start PvPing only to realise my class is back to the bad old days(36-41 cap were a joke).

I guess I'll have a chat with the mages in merch chats and get back to you about the gear.

Gear for gear, mage shield should not break and actually should last a considerable amount of time. I know you haven't PvPed in a while, but please take that into consideration...these sorcerers that are putting their thoughts PvP every day and some are not even maxed (KingofNinjas).

[Ireliaa]

so overall the suggestions on multiple threads as i read was;

+Increasing the damage of rogue in pvp clash environment
or nerf of damage if class stacking occurs on stackers
or reducing the damage of mage or warr or both while rogue stays same to eliminate one shot kill vs fights
or reduce the suvivability of other 2 class when they combine or stack where there is no vindow of atacking

some more suggestion can come from devs
so a test server where this suggestions can be tested or kdrless pvp for a while to take data can solve this, after then we can move on maybe better adjustments, its hard to theroise without actual real data

[Sasamon]

I keep dying in Planar Tombs with 1 hit.