Class restriction in PvP

[Breakingbadxx]

We are currently working on balance in the game at the moment. i believe all classes deserve to enjoy what PvP has to offer. I would like a class restriction to be implemented in PvP. It should allow no more than 2 of each class into a PvP room.

With this, everyone will be able to play in PvP, yay! All the current: "could you leave the PvP room so we can call a ..." will become: "Please stay, we need you, never mind your gear or experience, we will teach you".

Everybody's happy (potentially).
Even if its temporary, till true class balance is found.

Show your support for this if you agree, it encourages more teamwork and class diversity in PvP.

I would like to see comments on why you would be for or against this.

Keep posts constructive.

On another note, the issue of class balance/equality in PvP is also being addressed here.

[Nvgd]

+1 I like this idea.

[mrm]

Good idee in mind but there will be to much problims
The maping will make u insainly bord
Due to some rooms already being full of your class
Second prob would be what will hapen when lets say guild A
Wants 5 of its mages/rouges/war to vs 5 of the other class?
Seems odd but i know some guilds that likes to do theas events
This will help with the "Rouges feeling uselis"problim
I just cant imagen sts doing this

[Zeus]

Please, if this happens then there's no need for balancing of anything.

[Anyona]

Let's help the devs achieve some sort of class balance so each class has a place in a clash and can kill one another in a 1v1 scenario. Rather than forcing us to use a class which provides 0 utility within a clash.

I believe that if this is implemented, mages will probably go crit and cross and kill the rogue with ease.


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[Breakingbadxx]

Good idee in mind but there will be to much problims
The maping will make u insainly bord
Due to some rooms already being full of your class
Second prob would be what will hapen when lets say guild A
Wants 5 of its mages/rouges/war to vs 5 of the other class?
Seems odd but i know some guilds that likes to do theas events
This will help with the "Rouges feeling uselis"problim
I just cant imagen sts doing this
1). With the distribution of classes this will allow throughout PvP, there will be more 'random' meets occuring, which inturn means more available players to occupy rooms.

2). 0 class diversity due to stacking of specific classes to guarantee winning is a bigger issue in PvP currently than not being able to do specific 2 class clashes.

[Breakingbadxx]

Let's help the devs achieve some sort of class balance so each class has a place in a clash and can kill one another in a 1v1 scenario. Rather than forcing us to use a class which provides 0 utility within a clash.

I believe that if this is implemented, mages will probably go crit and cross and kill the rogue with ease.


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Both teams would have a rogue so I don't see the issue.

[Anyona]

Both teams will have a rogue so I don't see the issue.

There is an issue when a rogue will not survive 5mins without perfect team sync


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[Anyona]

If you are a rogue, please go and address your concerns of feeling that your class is squishy in specific AL team PvP scenario's else where.

I'm a mage actually :D I am fully supporting them in balancing the game, rather than taking shortcuts.


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[Lawpvp]

If you are a rogue, please go and address your concerns of feeling that your class is squishy in specific AL team PvP scenario's else where.

This thread is specifically to highlight a method that should be used to increase class diversity in PvP.

or you could address the actual reason there is a problem with class diversity instead of ignoring it by putting in a class restriction.

[Ireliaa]

Or you can simply fix the balance issue and not restrict players guildies friends etc who wants to play together

i believe its the survivability of other two class when they combine or stack makes this issue if they can adress this it would be much better long term solution

At least im glad people finally admitting there is something wrong

[Twerk]

We are working on balance in the game at the moment right? Well then, i believe all classes deserve to enjoy what PvP has to offer. I would like a class restriction to be implemented in PvP. It should allow no more than 2 of each class into a PvP room.

With this, everyone will be able to play in PvP, yay! All the current: "could you leave the PvP room so we can call a ..." will become: "Please stay, we need you, never mind your gear or experience, we will teach you".

Everybody's happy.

Show your support for this if you agree, it encourages more teamwork and class diversity in PvP.


How about just stop complaining about the nerfs, pvp, pve, doing multiple threads and just enjoying the damn game. Like for real

[Breakingbadxx]

Or you can simply fix the balance issue and not restrict players guildies friends etc who wants to play together

i believe its the survivability of other two class when they combine or stack makes this issue if they can adress this it would be much better long term solution

At least im glad people finally admitting there is something wrong


or you could address the actual reason there is a problem with class diversity instead of ignoring it by putting in a class restriction.

A fix for balancing all 3 classes evenly in PvP will most likely:
Cause more problems in future.
Be impossible.
Take years to accomplish.

If waiting a long time for class PvP balance is what you wish for then, let's take that road.

[ilmercenario]

Lol dude anyone should be free play as they like, ur saying not let ppls enjoy pvp, what if theres many rogs or tanks want play nd cant coz theres class restriction let just ppls have fun nd dont cry of theres many rogs or mages or tsnks ur free to leave that game

[Breakingbadxx]

How about just stop complaining about the nerfs, pvp, pve, doing multiple threads and just enjoying the damn game. Like for real

This is my second thread in over a year (i believe) and, not on the same issue as the first. Refrain from making false accusations and unconstructive comments.

[Breakingbadxx]

Lol dude anyone should be free play as they like, ur saying not let ppls enjoy pvp, what if theres many rogs or tanks want play nd cant coz theres class restriction let just ppls have fun nd dont cry of theres many rogs or mages or tsnks ur free to leave that game

Being free to play however you wish in PvP would be nice in a game that has class balance.

[Shelllz]

If this happens also pls disable all the procs, and scale all classes to the same stats. Thanks

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[Zulgath]

Rip dps clashes..
Oh, noone even play that anymore lol
Was so fun back then, alot of kills, no tanks lol

[Breakingbadxx]

Could a developer comment on why they believe this should or shouldn't happen. Thanks. It would be nice to know what you guys think about this.

[Zeus]

Could a developer comment on why they believe this should or shouldn't happen. Thanks. It would be nice to know what you guys think about this.

They don't work on the weekend, buddy. Give them until Monday, I'm sure Vroom or Cara will give a balanced update to fix this issue that's been plaguing rogues for about a year now.

[Breakingbadxx]

They don't work on the weekend, buddy. Give them until Monday, I'm sure Vroom or Cara will give a balanced update to fix this issue that's been plaguing rogues for about a year now.
Ah, thank you.

[Twerk]

This is my second thread in over a year (i believe) and, not on the same issue as the first. Refrain from making false accusations and unconstructive comments.

I only see crying.

[Deathclaw]

In my opinion this is a bad idea mainly because it takes 5 people to be able to clash, certain classes aren't available at all times this would kill pvp in general. I would be forced to leave the room if a tank isn't available to call or end up getting ganged. I wanna play with friends and this class restriction would strict me from having fun , pvp should be all about fun this will just ruin it in my opinion. Sts should look at balancing the classes , as for example the tanks glint stone set 3 axe pulls is just too much rouges cannot handle it enables them to freely move around in pvp , as for mages they can defend themselves by simply using their shield ability and save their butts from getting kicked. These are the types of things that should be looked at instead of restricting classes.

[Breakingbadxx]

As an additional section on this, could you point out what you believe it will take to balance all classes in PvP.

Balance meaning, 1 class being as necessary as the next to have on a team.

[Safiras]

As an additional section on this, could you point out what you believe it will take to balance all classes in PvP.

Balance meaning, 1 class being as necessary as the next to have on a team.

I had pointed out in another thread regarding the reason for the lack of usefulness of rogues. Basically it results from the increased survivability of tanks while on HoR/Jugg and mages while on Arcane Shield. Alone the tank or mage is balanced vs a rogue but when stacked in increasing numbers allows for a shield and cover rotation that a rogue will find almost impossible to break without the help of another mage or tank. This here is the issue: a rogue needs the support of another class and will suffer with rogue stacking, while tanks and mages are the opposite.

I had suggested team debuffs for class stacking in PvP, the specific debuff corresponding to the class being stacked. I really don't know what would happen if you were to increase rogue survivability in some way. We already had problems with this before our armor got nerfed. In the past, before the buffing of mage shield/tank Jugg, the usefulness of rogues was that they could crit hard and break a tank's jugg or a mage's shield. But since everyone complained that this was too gamebreaking and relies too little on skill, tanks got their Jugg buffed to the point that (apart from using Korruption) once under Jugg they're near unkillable.
I'm not in favor of returning to the old status quo though because of the level of unhappiness involved. However the root of the problem now as I've said lies in the ability (or lack thereof) of the rogue to break through all the shields and damage reduction capabilities of the other two classes especially when stacked in increasing numbers. If there is a way to mitigate this then there would be class balance in PvP.

[Breakingbadxx]

I had pointed out in another thread regarding the reason for the lack of usefulness of rogues. Basically it results from the increased survivability of tanks while on HoR/Jugg and mages while on Arcane Shield. Alone the tank or mage is balanced vs a rogue but when stacked in increasing numbers allows for a shield and cover rotation that a rogue will find almost impossible to break without the help of another mage or tank. This here is the issue: a rogue needs the support of another class and will suffer with rogue stacking, while tanks and mages are the opposite.

I had suggested team debuffs for class stacking in PvP, the specific debuff corresponding to the class being stacked. I really don't know what would happen if you were to increase rogue survivability in some way. We already had problems with this before our armor got nerfed. In the past, before the buffing of mage shield/tank Jugg, the usefulness of rogues was that they could crit hard and break a tank's jugg or a mage's shield. But since everyone complained that this was too gamebreaking and relies too little on skill, tanks got their Jugg buffed to the point that (apart from using Korruption) once under Jugg they're near unkillable.
I'm not in favor of returning to the old status quo though because of the level of unhappiness involved. However the root of the problem now as I've said lies in the ability (or lack thereof) of the rogue to break through all the shields and damage reduction capabilities of the other two classes especially when stacked in increasing numbers. If there is a way to mitigate this then there would be class balance in PvP.

I see, from what i have gathered, correct me if i'm wrong:
1). Rogue damage has become insignificant in team PvP scenario's, be it from the reduction of damage in PvP or something else. Rogues no longer have the damage to ward off or scare opponents targeting them specifically with the intent to erase the rogue from the battlefield.
2). Unlike the other 2 classes, rogues don't have an effective defensive countermeasure against attempts to erase them from the battlefield. Warriors have the juggernaut and horn of renew skills. Mages have a shield that grants a 2 second invulnerability and significant reduction in damage taken.

I presume the razor shield skill for rogues does not work as such a countermeasure like those for warriors and mages?

[Safiras]

I see, from what i have gathered, correct me if i'm wrong:
1). Rogue damage has become insignificant in team PvP scenario's, be it from the reduction of damage in PvP or something else. Rogues no longer have the damage to ward off or scare opponents targeting them specifically with the intent to erase the rogue from the battlefield.
2). Unlike the other 2 classes, rogues don't have an effective defensive countermeasure against attempts to erase them from the battlefield. Warriors have the juggernaut and horn of renew skills. Mages have a shield that grants a 2 second invulnerability and significant reduction in damage taken.

I presume the razor shield skill for rogues does not work as such a countermeasure like those for warriors and mages?

Will answer according to your points:

1. Rogue damage is insignificant in the sense that it poses no threat to the Juggernaut skill of an equally geared, equally-skilled tank. In a 1v1 setting this is still manageable in view that a rogue can use mobility to kite round the tank and make him miss hits, basically surviving until the Juggernaut buff expires before attempting to nuke the tank. At endgame though, Axe Throw and the Dragon Hunter Sword proc make this even harder to do. In clashes it is even worse because with proper timing and coordination between tanks, a tank can be under an almost constant shield and with all the chaos and movement in a clash, it is very difficult to pinpoint a tank which is in his window of vulnerability and take it down.

2. In contrast, a rogue is always vulnerable, always exposed because there is no viable damage reduction/shield skill that we possess. Razor shield requires maximum mastery to reach 10% damage reduction and even then it does not measure up to the damage reduction/absorption capabilities of Juggernaut or Arcane Shield.

[Ireliaa]

I had pointed out in another thread regarding the reason for the lack of usefulness of rogues. Basically it results from the increased survivability of tanks while on HoR/Jugg and mages while on Arcane Shield. Alone the tank or mage is balanced vs a rogue but when stacked in increasing numbers allows for a shield and cover rotation that a rogue will find almost impossible to break without the help of another mage or tank. This here is the issue: a rogue needs the support of another class and will suffer with rogue stacking, while tanks and mages are the opposite.

I had suggested team debuffs for class stacking in PvP, the specific debuff corresponding to the class being stacked. I really don't know what would happen if you were to increase rogue survivability in some way. We already had problems with this before our armor got nerfed. In the past, before the buffing of mage shield/tank Jugg, the usefulness of rogues was that they could crit hard and break a tank's jugg or a mage's shield. But since everyone complained that this was too gamebreaking and relies too little on skill, tanks got their Jugg buffed to the point that (apart from using Korruption) once under Jugg they're near unkillable.
I'm not in favor of returning to the old status quo though because of the level of unhappiness involved. However the root of the problem now as I've said lies in the ability (or lack thereof) of the rogue to break through all the shields and damage reduction capabilities of the other two classes especially when stacked in increasing numbers. If there is a way to mitigate this then there would be class balance in PvP.

i agree with you on survivability of the mage and warr when they are together is the issue as well as when they stack single class

but %5 reduction isnt gonna do anything because core problem is the skill combinations of 2 class as you told in detail + the well known infamous sword proc and 3 axe throws
rogue has no cc or defensive utility and doing about a damage little bit higher than mage and its not aoe

im wondering myself what changed after good old days of 31 cap pvp before the release of blood rubys and fangs, I believe that balance can be achieved again

[Kingofninjas]

I think this is a great idea. However, this would lead to the collapse of one of the major end game PvP guilds who have been relying on mage and tank stacks since 46 cap, if not before that.

[Zynzyn]

Good idea. Hope this is considered.

[Zeus]

I had pointed out in another thread regarding the reason for the lack of usefulness of rogues. Basically it results from the increased survivability of tanks while on HoR/Jugg and mages while on Arcane Shield. Alone the tank or mage is balanced vs a rogue but when stacked in increasing numbers allows for a shield and cover rotation that a rogue will find almost impossible to break without the help of another mage or tank. This here is the issue: a rogue needs the support of another class and will suffer with rogue stacking, while tanks and mages are the opposite.

I had suggested team debuffs for class stacking in PvP, the specific debuff corresponding to the class being stacked. I really don't know what would happen if you were to increase rogue survivability in some way. We already had problems with this before our armor got nerfed. In the past, before the buffing of mage shield/tank Jugg, the usefulness of rogues was that they could crit hard and break a tank's jugg or a mage's shield. But since everyone complained that this was too gamebreaking and relies too little on skill, tanks got their Jugg buffed to the point that (apart from using Korruption) once under Jugg they're near unkillable.
I'm not in favor of returning to the old status quo though because of the level of unhappiness involved. However the root of the problem now as I've said lies in the ability (or lack thereof) of the rogue to break through all the shields and damage reduction capabilities of the other two classes especially when stacked in increasing numbers. If there is a way to mitigate this then there would be class balance in PvP.

Yes, and if you stack only Mage or warrior on other class then the rogue on other side has no chance.

[Breakingbadxx]

Great discussion guys, let's take the specific rogue class discussion to the 'On Balance - Rogue class role in team PvP' thread.

[Energizeric]

Unfortunately I'm not sure if this issue can ever be solved. It seems that from the beginning, rogues were designed to deliver large amounts of single target damage, while mages were designed to deliver damage to a group. When things were "balanced" in team PvP, a mage did not stand a chance against a rogue or warrior 1-on-1 since there was no "group" to damage, and mage's single target damage was much lower than that of a rogue.

So then to make things balanced in 1-on-1 PvP, they have now upset the balance in team PvP. From an objective standpoint, I'm not sure you can ever have both types of PvP balanced. The problem really is mages, not rogues. If you make them powerful enough to compete in 1-on-1 situations, then they become too powerful in team PvP.

In the early days of PvP, the advantage the mage had over the other classes was the stun. But over time, with the addition of Nekro and other stun immunities, the stun became less and less reliable. So to compensate for this loss of power, mages received higher and higher damage stats, and now we are in the situation we are in. Either they are too powerful in team PvP, or not powerful enough in 1-on-1 PvP.

[Zeus]

Unfortunately I'm not sure if this issue can ever be solved. It seems that from the beginning, rogues were designed to deliver large amounts of single target damage, while mages were designed to deliver damage to a group. When things were "balanced" in team PvP, a mage did not stand a chance against a rogue or warrior 1-on-1 since there was no "group" to damage, and mage's single target damage was much lower than that of a rogue.

So then to make things balanced in 1-on-1 PvP, they have now upset the balance in team PvP. From an objective standpoint, I'm not sure you can ever have both types of PvP balanced. The problem really is mages, not rogues. If you make them powerful enough to compete in 1-on-1 situations, then they become too powerful in team PvP.

In the early days of PvP, the advantage the mage had over the other classes was the stun. But over time, with the addition of Nekro and other stun immunities, the stun became less and less reliable. So to compensate for this loss of power, mages received higher and higher damage stats, and now we are in the situation we are in. Either they are too powerful in team PvP, or not powerful enough in 1-on-1 PvP.

Well, Team PvP is more of a function in this game rather than 1v1 PvP. That's why I never really cared for 1v1 balance, because its something that will never really be achieved without some heavy compromises.

[Breakingbadxx]

Well, Team PvP is more of a function in this game rather than 1v1 PvP. That's why I never really cared for 1v1 balance, because its something that will never really be achieved without some heavy compromises.
I also wondered the same. PvP Duelling is a 'recent' feature added to the game, so why is it that the developers continue working hard at balancing classes in a 1v1 scenario e.g. the rock, paper, scissors theory?

Team PvP has been the main PvP aspect in this game from the beginning. This should be the main focus of PvP balance.

Team deathmatch.

Capture the flag (as a team).

I personally would like to see more effort go into balancing PvP from a 'group' perspective, because (as pointed out by Zeus), I have yet to see a successful 1v1 PvP class balance in games. The 'selfish' attribute humans have to be better than another makes it impossible.

[Intous]

I think, since PvP balance has been wrecked, it'd a good choice to have a week without k/ds to test things and see which option would be an effective method to fix the issue.
Tbh, in my point of view, rogues are a anti person class, if we make it strong on clashes, that'd would render it an all-rounded class, but still, the 46 sword, sigh.

[Energizeric]

Well, Team PvP is more of a function in this game rather than 1v1 PvP. That's why I never really cared for 1v1 balance, because its something that will never really be achieved without some heavy compromises.

I agree. Perhaps the solution is to buff rogues a bit, and then nerf them ONLY in duels where they clearly have that high single-target damage advantage.

[Zeus]

I agree. Perhaps the solution is to buff rogues a bit, and then nerf them ONLY in duels where they clearly have that high single-target damage advantage.

I wouldn't mind that.

[Kingofninjas]

I agree. Perhaps the solution is to buff rogues a bit, and then nerf them ONLY in duels where they clearly have that high single-target damage advantage.

Wouldn't it be better to nerf mages and then further nerf rogues in ONLY duels since you previously stated, and i agree, the problem is with mages and tanks, not rogues.

[Zeus]

Wouldn't it be better to nerf mages and then further nerf rogues in ONLY duels since you previously stated, and i agree, the problem is with mages and tanks, not rogues.

Yes, but nobody likes being nerfed...so I'm sure people would like to avoid that. That being said, this is the first time I've seen a mage say that mages need to be nerfed. Props!

[Kriticality]

Only thing I'm getting from this thread is that curse needs to be buffed. To that point, I agree.

On a more serious note, I need to think about this some. Off the top of my head, I think that rogues should have only 25% damage nerf as opposed to the 50% that the rest of us enjoy at end game. Ofc it can scale the same way as it already does to twink levels. This will reward team play as there is a lot of skill in keeping the rogue alive as well. Giving the armor back doesn't seem that it would help as I'm pretty sure 2 mages will just crush the rogue anyway. Increased damage makes everyone think twice about approaching those rogues though. They currently seem like glass without cannon.


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[Safiras]

The reduction of damage nerf for rogues means we go back to the pre-ASnerf era.

Rogues survivability issues lie nott in nott being able to dish out damage but rather in how easily they can be hunted down and killed in a clash.

This can easily be resolved with increasing the number of opponents a rogue can shadownpierce through, thereby increasing HP return as well providing some kind of dodge and/or armour buff to rogues for when they come out of a SP.
No lol I do not want to shadow pierce through multiple targets then getting axed and stunned and nuked along the way. That is how the bad rogues who do not know their skills well play. The reason why rogues die so much is because we cannot survive deep inside the clash zone, not like tanks with jugg and mages with shield.

[Kriticality]

The reduction of damage nerf for rogues means we go back to the pre-ASnerf era.

Rogues survivability issues lie nott in nott being able to dish out damage but rather in how easily they can be hunted down and killed in a clash.

This can easily be resolved with increasing the number of opponents a rogue can shadownpierce through, thereby increasing HP return as well providing some kind of dodge and/or armour buff to rogues for when they come out of a SP.

Dude mages and tanks survivability got boosted to heaven. We could use a little aimed shot checking again. Rogue won't be wanted anyway with armor. The HEAL cycle is what make tank and Mage stack so powerful. That includes shield and jugg. Rogue offers nothing towards that better than tank or Mage. What it offers or used to offer is tons of damage to force early heals and shields for fear of being destroyed or better yet sniping out one of the healers. 50% damage is not enough for rogues now. And ofc you know I'm not a rogue.


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[Kriticality]

How does increasing rogue damage output help class balance?

More increased damage means rogues will be back to the alpha class spot in PvP.

Currently PvP has the rock paper scissors cycle when it comes to one v one, increasing rogue damage will be leaving mages helpless in the fights and warriors asking for another jugg buff. From my days playing a rogue in twink PvP, I could SP from behind walls to get my health back and deal damage to enemies without finding myself in the thick of the fight, don't know if they've fixed that yet or if it's just ping playing games with the screen. What else besides decreasing damage nerf on rogues is there? Adding some kind of pet that cancels buffs? Tweaking skills to provide added survivability? For as far as I can tell rogue issue in clashes sprouts from mage shield and heal cycle and rogues nott being able to get behind enemies and nuke out their DPSes

It's just not true in max clashes. Before the global nerf people were still playing 2 tank 2 Mage and rogue or 2/3 tanks rest mages. Before the global nerf on damage rogues were useless almost in clash. After nerf if other team doesn't use one they have no place at all. Nobody would voluntarily swap a Mage or tank for a rogue. Rogue being dangerous encourages precision and team play. Not laziness bc the rogue can't kill the once squishy class even in the open. It's not paper rock scissors at the highest gear level. I can kill any tank I've tried in duel and I beat up on rogues too.

Again the reason why they are not used is bc what they offer more than mages is slightly more damage only. Armor debuffs are everywhere with nekro and other mechanisms. Our HEAL cycle is better for team than anything a rogue offers. It's not possible for them to survive unless you make them tanks. 200 armor ain't doing anything. Even with new gear and mm eggs on sams with nekro aa are useless. Rogue is supposed to offer damage. Right now they aren't. I'm not sayin they should be able to one shot everything and always break jugg. I'm saying that their damage is far to low for anyone to consider using them in serious end game clashes. And ofc health packs compared to horn and Mage heal is a joke. They need to offer not a little but a lot more to be included. Give that rogue 400 armor and the same damage and two mages will still 100% melt the rogue. They can't survive the onslaught. Not to mention all the dot from sword and fb. For rogue the best defense is a good offense. It doesn't have to be extreme. But mages with 50% health and shield still active should have serious reservations before charging a rogue. I have no hesitation at all anymore in any kind of team setting. As I said before, they're all glass. No cannon.


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[Anyona]

Rather than boosting their damage, it'd be better to improve a rogues utility. Once they can offer something to the team, they'll be useful once again as the reason mages are favoured is due to their heal+survivability.



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[Kriticality]

Rather than boosting their damage, it'd be better to improve a rogues utility. Once they can offer something to the team, they'll be useful once again as the reason mages are favoured is due to their heal+survivability.



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Only if it can interrupt heal cycle will it be useful I think. Maybe an upgrade called heal shatter or and arrow that has change to "stun" the heal ability. If they don't help break the heal cycle or become better healers than tanks or mages then there is likely no place for them. Not sure why everyone so salty about rogue damage. They were perfectly fine at 46 and 56 before global nerf. Still mostly useless in clash.


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[Zeus]

If rogue damage was perfectly fine why did they have to "fix" jugg?:p

Sorcerers broke jugg, not just rogues. Jugg would have been needed to be fixed regardless, so it's not really a valid point. However now, since jugg can absorb huge amounts of damage...

Papa is right. Sorcerers, even the lesser geared ones, can rush a rogue in a team environment and wipe them without much effort. Once the nekro shield is gone, the rogue simply will not survive. I have asked for armor in the past, that was in reservation. I still have doubts that even with armor returned, rogues will still face the same issue.

Rogue simply has nothing to offer in a team based situation and therefore, something needs to be introduced that makes them beneficial and crucial to have in a team.

For example, if a team could start going without a warrior...that would be broken, right? This is the same thing here.

[Ireliaa]

its not getting armor back issue i dont think its gonna solve anything problem is in the core of skills, and procs. You cant break jugger there is no window of killing when stacking occurs and by the time you catch window you most likely be dead by then

i also dont think %5 Damage reduction gonna solve anything when stacking single class per each stack, since damage is not the problem there its the survivability of combined mage warr's

as people told noone likes nerf, then this leaves us with a buff but even that comesits own consequences, if rogue damage gets buff, rogue 1 shot rogue scenario occurs same goes for mage

so on final note i believe reverting back skills procs etc or adjust it in the pvp envoronment as its used to be should be the solution, im saying the time pre arcane weapon intrduction lvl 46
rogue mage warr was fine back then

[Ireliaa]

It's just not true in max clashes. Before the global nerf people were still playing 2 tank 2 Mage and rogue or 2/3 tanks rest mages. Before the global nerf on damage rogues were useless almost in clash. After nerf if other team doesn't use one they have no place at all. Nobody would voluntarily swap a Mage or tank for a rogue. Rogue being dangerous encourages precision and team play. Not laziness bc the rogue can't kill the once squishy class even in the open. It's not paper rock scissors at the highest gear level. I can kill any tank I've tried in duel and I beat up on rogues too.

Again the reason why they are not used is bc what they offer more than mages is slightly more damage only. Armor debuffs are everywhere with nekro and other mechanisms. Our HEAL cycle is better for team than anything a rogue offers. It's not possible for them to survive unless you make them tanks. 200 armor ain't doing anything. Even with new gear and mm eggs on sams with nekro aa are useless. Rogue is supposed to offer damage. Right now they aren't. I'm not sayin they should be able to one shot everything and always break jugg. I'm saying that their damage is far to low for anyone to consider using them in serious end game clashes. And ofc health packs compared to horn and Mage heal is a joke. They need to offer not a little but a lot more to be included. Give that rogue 400 armor and the same damage and two mages will still 100% melt the rogue. They can't survive the onslaught. Not to mention all the dot from sword and fb. For rogue the best defense is a good offense. It doesn't have to be extreme. But mages with 50% health and shield still active should have serious reservations before charging a rogue. I have no hesitation at all anymore in any kind of team setting. As I said before, they're all glass. No cannon.


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thanks for being realistic

maybe just maybe reducing mage and warr dmg by %25 more when rogue stays the same instead of %25 buff on rogue damage can solve it, that way one shot aim kill whithout able to react problem doesnt occur

but i cannot predict what would it do on mage vs warr scenario

[Breakingbadxx]

Returning the % of armor that was taken from the rogue class initially would be useless in solving the current issue due to such armor already being insignificant before it was taken?

Removing that % of armor made something that was already a problem (low survivability in team PvP situations) even worse?

Is this correct?

If so, the solution being sought here goes beyond returning or even slightly increasing armor.

[Zeus]

Returning the % of armor that was taken from the rogue class initially would be useless in solving the current issue due to such armor already being insignificant before it was taken?

Removing that % of armor made something that was already a problem (low survivability in team PvP situations) even worse?

Is this correct?

If so, the solution being sought here goes beyond returning or even slightly increasing armor.

Yes, the issue was there before our armor was nerfed. It just made it so much worse once the armor was gone.

[yubaraj]

I want to say something about class restriction too.

Anyone ever wondered why CTF map is dead at endgame. I don't have any idea but I can only guess.

Class restriction we are talking about may turn TDM to another CTF that's a possibility too. I don't want to go in detail but it may negatively effect the whole PvP community.

I hope trying to give a rogue in a PvP group situation by limiting class may not destroy the whole PvP experience in a sum.

I am just pointing out the other side of coin. no disrespect to anyone.

[Safiras]

I want to say something about class restriction too.

Anyone ever wondered why CTF map is dead at endgame. I don't have any idea but I can only guess.

Class restriction we are talking about may turn TDM to another CTF that's a possibility too. I don't want to go in detail but it may negatively effect the whole PvP community.

I hope trying to give a rogue in a PvP group situation by limiting class may not destroy the whole PvP experience in a sum.

I am just pointing out the other side of coin. no disrespect to anyone.

CTF is dead because one or more PvP guilds will enter a random map and start killing people. Then when the opposition fights back and wins, they send in one tank, then another, and another until the tank stack wins. This is the result of no class restrictions. Arranged PvP clashes involving rogues are made at the goodwill of the mages and tanks on both sides. A rogue in a team is always one too many.

TDM has already begun to look like CTF because the same guilds that tank stack in CTF also do the same in TDM. Asking them to not stack tanks is like trying to breathe in a vaacum. Their interest is in crushing you in PvP, why would these KDR hungry players let you have a chance at winning? The only reason why TDM has not died yet is because the tank stack is slightly less effective due to the open nature of the map which allows for more routes of escape. But if the issue of rogue survivability and tank stacking is not resolved then I assure you, PvP will have no place for rogues for the foreseeable future.

[yubaraj]

CTF is dead because one or more PvP guilds will enter a random map and start killing people. Then when the opposition fights back and wins, they send in one tank, then another, and another until the tank stack wins. This is the result of no class restrictions. Arranged PvP clashes involving rogues are made at the goodwill of the mages and tanks on both sides. A rogue in a team is always one too many.

TDM has already begun to look like CTF because the same guilds that tank stack in CTF also do the same in TDM. Asking them to not stack tanks is like trying to breathe in a vaacum. Their interest is in crushing you in PvP, why would these KDR hungry players let you have a chance at winning? The only reason why TDM has not died yet is because the tank stack is slightly less effective due to the open nature of the map which allows for more routes of escape. But if the issue of rogue survivability and tank stacking is not resolved then I assure you, PvP will have no place for rogues for the foreseeable future.

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Posting this as a pic as this mobile browser deletes my comment when I try to edit.

I just wanted to add that this global Nerf thing has actually buffed rogue damage in PvP while needing other class damage.

[Zeus]

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Posting this as a pic as this mobile browser deletes my comment when I try to edit.

I just wanted to add that this global Nerf thing has actually buffed rogue damage in PvP while needing other class damage.

It didn't buff rogue's damage, you're forgetting that damage was nerfed 40% and then global damage is applied. That is still lower damage than what we had before.

[Safiras]

153260
153261

Posting this as a pic as this mobile browser deletes my comment when I try to edit.

I just wanted to add that this global Nerf thing has actually buffed rogue damage in PvP while needing other class damage.

Class restriction is something I am opposed to in the strictest sense, because as the post you quoted said it places impediments on the ability of randoms to fill up a room. I had mentioned the introduction of team debuffs in the event of stacking classes on a team (third time I've mentioned this) as an alternative to restricting classes.

And yes I am well aware of the theoretical effect of rogue's damage being "buffed" relative to other classes as prior to the global nerf other classes didn't have an automatic damage nerf in PvP like rogues did. However, do you see this effect being translated into greater rogue usefulness in PvP? No. Clearly there is something more complicated than just increased rogue damage that will fix this current imbalance in PvP.

[yubaraj]

It didn't buff rogue's damage, you're forgetting that damage was nerfed 40% and then global damage is applied. That is still lower damage than what we had before.

Before this global Nerf applied rogues were suffering from damage Nerf in PvP which further restricted getting pet happiness damage buff as far as I know. Suppose we were using nekro at that time so mage and warrior were getting 25% more damage than rogues. Correct me if I am wrong?

So mages and warrior were enjoying that damage buff. When this global Nerf happened all the classes damage that's done is reduced by 40%. Rogues are no more suffering the Nerf that was applicable in PvP. So what I was trying to say is that rogue got their damage back.

So if you look at the bigger picture mage and warrior does not have damage advantage that they used to have so it's a Nerf. And rogues Nerf lifted out so I guess I can call it a buff .

I hope that clarify what I was trying to say.

[Ireliaa]

You know all this theorotical solution talk asside they should make a test server or kdrless pvp like before to test this issue out and try the suggestions one by one

otherwise its gonna be useless without seeing the outcome

[Breakingbadxx]

You know all this theorotical solution talk asside they should make a test server or kdrless pvp like before to test this issue out and try the suggestions one by one

otherwise its gonna be useless without seeing the outcome
That would be convienent and save time on the long-run.

[Zeus]

Before this global Nerf applied rogues were suffering from damage Nerf in PvP which further restricted getting pet happiness damage buff as far as I know. Suppose we were using nekro at that time so mage and warrior were getting 25% more damage than rogues. Correct me if I am wrong?

So mages and warrior were enjoying that damage buff. When this global Nerf happened all the classes damage that's done is reduced by 40%. Rogues are no more suffering the Nerf that was applicable in PvP. So what I was trying to say is that rogue got their damage back.

So if you look at the bigger picture mage and warrior does not have damage advantage that they used to have so it's a Nerf. And rogues Nerf lifted out so I guess I can call it a buff .

I hope that clarify what I was trying to say.

They didn't get their damage back in the sense that rogues still hit less than before. The only difference was they were the least affected on the stat page by the nerf. Rogues lose about 15% damage technically compared to warrior and sorcerer's 40%. However, that actually helped sorcerers and warrior out because it gave them more time to react to big damage and took away from the glass cannon aspect.

So in short, that rebalance didn't help at all for end game. I know, however, that it did help at twink level. Why? They got a damage buff! So, they did get the glass cannon aspect of them. Yes, rogues hit hard there but that's exactly why they have a role in PvP. If their damage can be out healed by a warrior and Mage stack then there's no point to having a rogue.

[yubaraj]

They didn't get their damage back in the sense that rogues still hit less than before. The only difference was they were the least affected on the stat page by the nerf. Rogues lose about 15% damage technically compared to warrior and sorcerer's 40%. However, that actually helped sorcerers and warrior out because it gave them more time to react to big damage and took away from the glass cannon aspect.

So in short, that rebalance didn't help at all for end game. I know, however, that it did help at twink level. Why? They got a damage buff! So, they did get the glass cannon aspect of them. Yes, rogues hit hard there but that's exactly why they have a role in PvP. If their damage can be out healed by a warrior and Mage stack then there's no point to having a rogue.

As far as I remember this global Nerf thing was applied as developer saw rogue as a greater threat to opposite rogue due to their one shot and high crit skill. If they give rogue more damage I doubt it will solve anything.

As far as twinks goes rogue survibality is more than endgame. Mage and warrior cannot one combo shieldless rogue imo.

Anyways I am done speaking for rogues favour. Thank you.

[Alwarez]

As far as I remember this global Nerf thing was applied as developer saw rogue as a greater threat to opposite rogue due to their one shot and high crit skill.
I still get one shoted in endgame with 1900 armor and 6k hp btw :applause:

[Breakingbadxx]

So we should be looking into the factors giving twink rogues the ability to survive in the situations endgame rogues are struggling hopelessly in?

[Energizeric]

They didn't get their damage back in the sense that rogues still hit less than before. The only difference was they were the least affected on the stat page by the nerf. Rogues lose about 15% damage technically compared to warrior and sorcerer's 40%. However, that actually helped sorcerers and warrior out because it gave them more time to react to big damage and took away from the glass cannon aspect.

So in short, that rebalance didn't help at all for end game. I know, however, that it did help at twink level. Why? They got a damage buff! So, they did get the glass cannon aspect of them. Yes, rogues hit hard there but that's exactly why they have a role in PvP. If their damage can be out healed by a warrior and Mage stack then there's no point to having a rogue.

That is actually a fair point! If I am fighting a rogue, it really doesn't matter whether he hits me for 60% of my health or 80% of my health. Either way, one more hit will kill me, so I must heal myself. But if that one hit was to take 100% of my health instead (as it used to), I would be dead and my heal would be useless.

I will say though that PvP was not very fun when I could be killed by a rogue with one hit. What exactly is one to do to avoid that? There is no strategy you can take. You cannot dodge the hit, or run away (the rogue is faster than you). So once your shield is in cool down, you are toast if they decide to come after you. Often times in TDM, you don't even see the rogue, you are just suddenly dead because an arrow that came from somewhere hit you. For a game that is supposed to be about strategy, there's not much strategy in that.

There must be some way we can make rogues competitive without them being able to one hit sorcerers and other rogues. As you mentioned, it works fine at twink levels and there are no one-hits going on there. So there must be a way that endgame can also be balance like that.

[Energizeric]

So we should be looking into the factors giving twink rogues the ability to survive in the situations endgame rogues are struggling hopelessly in?

The factors are very simple..... More health and more armor. This is mostly due to the fact that pet happiness bonuses do not scale to level. So if you have an arcane pet at twink levels, you receive all the health and armor buff that end game players do from that same pet. Since damage and crit buffs from pet happiness are percentage based, they do scale to level appropriately. So you end up with more health and armor than you should have at that level, yet your damage and crit is not higher than it should be.

[Suentous PO]

Your forum pic change cracked me up Parth

[Zeus]

Your forum pic change cracked me up Parth

It's because I'm crying over how useless rogues are now. xD

[Suentous PO]

I got it right away- soz

[Ireliaa]

It's because I'm crying over how useless rogues are now. xD

I honestly dont think anyone will care about the balance issue

we are just gonna have to wait to get new cap and old items "phase out" to open room for balancing, so another year
be sure have enough tears for a year or so

[Ucannaunabae]

i think the probelms is nt the class, but the gear that been used , and the stats . i always been bullied in pv lol XD

[Hoardseeker]

This is some great idea!

[Dehydration]

Most of my twink friends are rogues too. If I can only play with 1 other friend in the same team whos the same class as me, wouldn't it hinder me from having fun with my other rogue friends? The same goes for other classes as well. I don't want to play with them separately. I really don't support this idea.


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