On Balance - Rogue class role in team PvP

[Breakingbadxx]

Let's help the developers find a solve for the current inability of the rogue class to work in team based PvP environments involving warriors and mages.

Post what you believe the problems are and what you believe will be an effective solve. Include references to the other classes as well for comparison when possible.

Keep posts constructive.

I am a warrior.

[Breakingbadxx]

From an earlier discussion.

I had pointed out in another thread regarding the reason for the lack of usefulness of rogues. Basically it results from the increased survivability of tanks while on HoR/Jugg and mages while on Arcane Shield. Alone the tank or mage is balanced vs a rogue but when stacked in increasing numbers allows for a shield and cover rotation that a rogue will find almost impossible to break without the help of another mage or tank. This here is the issue: a rogue needs the support of another class and will suffer with rogue stacking, while tanks and mages are the opposite.

I had suggested team debuffs for class stacking in PvP, the specific debuff corresponding to the class being stacked. I really don't know what would happen if you were to increase rogue survivability in some way. We already had problems with this before our armor got nerfed. In the past, before the buffing of mage shield/tank Jugg, the usefulness of rogues was that they could crit hard and break a tank's jugg or a mage's shield. But since everyone complained that this was too gamebreaking and relies too little on skill, tanks got their Jugg buffed to the point that (apart from using Korruption) once under Jugg they're near unkillable.
I'm not in favor of returning to the old status quo though because of the level of unhappiness involved. However the root of the problem now as I've said lies in the ability (or lack thereof) of the rogue to break through all the shields and damage reduction capabilities of the other two classes especially when stacked in increasing numbers. If there is a way to mitigate this then there would be class balance in PvP.

[Litheus]

I have some ideas on how to make rogues needed in clash environment :
1. Since mages are basically a support class how about a certain skill in mage buffs the rogues in the team. Eg - they might get extra crit, extra damage, extra HP, stun immunity, etc.
2. Warriors juggernaut or VB can also have an like buff rogues.
By implementing the above two ideas rogues will not be OP solo but be useful in a clash and called. They cant be stacked also because you need the other classes to get that buff.

Now some suggestions that can come in the rogue character itself :
1. Their stun immunity skill i.e., razor shield can get a bit upgraded. It can like give damage reduction a bit.
2. Shadow piercer has a skill upgrade to reduce enemy armour by 10% which is useless because it has 15% chance and it doesn't stack with aimed shot. How about if it reduces "damage reduction" of the other opponent and has a bigger chance that 15%. Like that jugg warriors can receive more damage.
3. One more important upgrade i can think is that the range of rogue attacks can be increased a bit. Like that they can attack from a safe distance without getting attacked by mage's stuns.
4. Rogues are assasins and assasins dont attack from close range. Shadow piercer in clashes brings the rogues too close to enemy groups and they get stunned n killed instantly. One solution is that every 3rd or 2nd shadow pierce gives rogue stun immunity for like 0.5 or 0.8sec. so that they can return to a safe distance without getting stunned.

these are some ideas i have about rogue. thank you

[mistery]

rogues must be exterminated

[Xinghvn]

I think that one of the problem that caused rogues to become more useless is due to the level difference and the skills of the other classes. From what I've seen and experienced in lv25~27 pvp and other lower twinks (I am a tank), rogues are pretty much fine in pvp in both clashes or 1vs1.

However as level progresses, rogues start to become more and more useless. This might be due to (My own thoughts) that hp and armour of tanks gets massive leap from twink to endgame. Which allows tanks to take good dmg reduction from rogue dmg and with the help of juggernaut. Mages also take a big leap of dmg and mana as level progresses, their arcane shield provides a great dmg reduction from rogue damage also. On rogues side, they only focus on dex, crit and dmg, but only gradually increase their hp and armour, unlike the tanks and have no useful dmg reduction skills like the mage arcane shield. All though the shadow veil does add armour, but the rogue has to stand in it, which makes it easier for tanks and mages to hit, so pretty much no point in it.

In the end, I think what rogues really need is a buff in their armour value and/or a skill which can allow temporary dmg reduction, maybe can be added the mastery of what skill. The devs tested a dmg nerf system for pvp, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't really help. As each class gets the nerf, their damage reduces but the skills and damage ratio between each class are still the same, (if you get what I mean). From what I have seen in endgame, rogues pretty much have the same armour value as the mages, but rogues don't have shield or juggernaut. Which is likely why rogues lose against mages, and against tanks, no need to explain, I'm sure u guys all know.

Other thing that people mentioned that makes rogues useless in pvp is the lv46 arcane weapon, the dragon hunter sword which has a powerful proc can easily kill a rogue, however I think theres no need to nerf the proc, its just the dmg reduction of rogues is way too weak. Not sure about the lv56 weapons for, still need to test hehe. Further more, theres no need to nerf any classes or buff rogue damage or crit. Its just their armour value and damage reduction that makes them die too fast and easily in pvp. Rogue crit and damage still does an insanely amount in pvp overall.

Also the armour buff and dmg reduction skill like I mentioned does not need to be applied in lower lvls under lv30s as each class pretty much can kill each other in 1vs1. Rogues does big dmg in these twink levels. For example a lv26-27 rogue with either bow or arc hooks can easily do 1k-2k crit on a tank with 1.3k armour if geared correctly.

This is my thoughts only, not sure about the rest of the community, hope you guys find it useful and reasonable, if not then just ignore my post.

Thanks

[Safiras]

Would like to just highlight one significant difference between all 3 classes. Besides Nekro, the rogue has no other personal means of defence against attacks. Without Nekro shield, a rogue is toast. So in effect there is no class balance once Nekro is taken out of the picture. I would love to be proven wrong. Take any well-geared rogue, put it up against an equally geared mage or tank and both opponents agree not to use Nekro. I would like to know how it turns out for the rogue.

[Zynzyn]

PVP Balance and what else to look at besides the ROLES of the 3 classes?

Every season, tweaks made here and there, end up making one class under-powered while powering up another. This never-ending cycle has been going on for so long that one doubts if one is looking at the right place when seeking an equilibrium.

Ofcourse the respective roles of the 3 classes are important to look at. But it is also important to explore the type of combat that the classes will be indulging in. The roles being explored should be explored in relation to the combat they will work in - vs or teamfight?

Several from within the PVP community enjoy 1v1, several others enjoy team fights and the rest enjoy both. Dueling and Clashing are both popular among PVP players but they are totally different settings. Can we deny that all the feedback regarding balance issues in PVP is about one section complaining that they are losing in 1v1 and claiming that hence their entire class is weak and the same section working tremendously well in a team fight while the other class is whining that they are unwanted. It is messy.

The first step in dividing and simplifying AL PVP into Clashing (group combat) and Dueling ( 1 vs 1) is to have well-defined arenas that cater to only one type of combat. This way balance adjustments to classes will be separate for group combat and solo. Then treat each setting separately. The issues arising in dueling will not affect clashing and can be solved more easily and quickly..

Implement or remove background modifiers/buffs/nerfs in arenas according to the problem, according to the level Tiers. Maybe that would better-solve balance related issues. Rather than nerfing or buffing the class, nerf or buff the arena while keeping in mind what kind of combat it is for. A team fight arena should work differently from a soloing arena.

One drawback is that players will want to duel in the clash room or clash in the duel room depending on how conveniently it affects their class. Please somehow delineate each arena and disallow mixing up. That would be a challenge though.

A coat tailored for Dueling will not fit Clashing and vice versa. So it is maybe needed for us to stop seeking an overall PVP Balance, separate Dueling and Clashing and acknowledge, define and treat them as two separate settings each of which requires a balance of its own.

[mrm]

Would like to just highlight one significant difference between all 3 classes. Besides Nekro, the rogue has no other personal means of defence against attacks. Without Nekro shield, a rogue is toast. So in effect there is no class balance once Nekro is taken out of the picture. I would love to be proven wrong. Take any well-geared rogue, put it up against an equally geared mage or tank and both opponents agree not to use Nekro. I would like to know how it turns out for the rogue.

Umm what about razor shield?

[Kingofninjas]

Would like to just highlight one significant difference between all 3 classes. Besides Nekro, the rogue has no other personal means of defence against attacks. Without Nekro shield, a rogue is toast. So in effect there is no class balance once Nekro is taken out of the picture. I would love to be proven wrong. Take any well-geared rogue, put it up against an equally geared mage or tank and both opponents agree not to use Nekro. I would like to know how it turns out for the rogue.

I would imagine rogue beats tank and mage beats rogue. And tank beats mage. Removing nekro would just further nerf rogues in clashes. They will get axed and then just killed by all the area damage of mages and tanks.

[Lunarpvp]

Would like to just highlight one significant difference between all 3 classes. Besides Nekro, the rogue has no other personal means of defence against attacks. Without Nekro shield, a rogue is toast. So in effect there is no class balance once Nekro is taken out of the picture. I would love to be proven wrong. Take any well-geared rogue, put it up against an equally geared mage or tank and both opponents agree not to use Nekro. I would like to know how it turns out for the rogue.

Not necessarily. I use Marido's and i am fine in 1v1's vs against anyone. (No Korr)

[yubaraj]

Skilled rogue who knows how to use maridos and vs against mage will always win against maridos mage imo. I am new to endgame so can't say much but in twink levels that's the case. So the thing is that trying to balance endgame may unbalance the game for twinks. Also the arcane shield breaks before its duration while fighting vs with rogues that's what I have noticed. And mage will get one shotted by rogues without the shield.
Regarding warrior vs mage without nekros , imo mage will die because of axe pull n lava proc. I could win most of the warriors in vs but if I couldn't sync arcane shield and nekros shield I loose.

As I see the problem may be the ratio of dmg:health between twinks and endgame. For example 15 rogue has 200 dmg and 2000 health. So ratio is 1:10. Whereas endgame rogue has 1200 dmg and 6000 health. So ratio is 1:5. Just an example.

Btw in my observation rogue and war has equal chance to win vs fight. And if warrior doesn't have arcane sword then warrior will loose for sure. So the warrior is mostly dependent on arcane sword proc imo.

And also we cannot forget how the same class vs go with the tweaks and update.

I am hoping for equal environment to all too. Its a game so everyone has right to have some fun playing. Plz don't make it so personal.

[Breakingbadxx]

Someone has pointed out allowing 'dodge' to substantially work against skill attacks.

It makes me wonder why a rogue class in this game is unable to dodge attacks like 'rogue type' classes in other games.

If increasing tankiness isn't an option then increasing survivability via dodging attacks should be.

What are your opinions on this?

[Zeus]

Someone has pointed out allowing 'dodge' to substantially work against skill attacks.

It makes me wonder why a rogue class in this game is unable to dodge attacks like 'rogue type' classes in other games.

If increasing tankiness isn't an option then increasing survivability via dodging attacks should be.

What are your opinions on this?

I would like this! In the end, it'll make all classes have a chance. This was the case in PL and all classes had a role in PvP. Keep in mind though, dodge isn't a percentage. So, those who think 60 dodge means 60% dodge...that is not the case.

[Breakingbadxx]

I would like this! In the end, it'll make all classes have a chance. This was the case in PL and all classes had a role in PvP. Keep in mind though, dodge isn't a percentage. So, those who think 60 dodge means 60% dodge...that is not the case.
I think duels should be an exception for this as it could be considered 'broken' in a 1v1 situation.

[yubaraj]

Someone has pointed out allowing 'dodge' to substantially work against skill attacks.

It makes me wonder why a rogue class in this game is unable to dodge attacks like 'rogue type' classes in other games.

If increasing tankiness isn't an option then increasing survivability via dodging attacks should be.

What are your opinions on this?

It can be helpful or disastrous. STS can look into this option too. But plz make this available on test server if possible.

However I want to highlight some points
-rogue got high dodge percentage that's what stat page says, so rogue will have great advantage against other class.
-also rogue has fastest cool down on attack skill. If warrior skill are dodged by rogue then warrior will suffer most.

So I suggest if dodge is possible give equal dodge to other class too as this equal opportunity can be compensated on rogues because of fastest cool down skill of rogues.

[Zeus]

It can be helpful or disastrous. STS can look into this option too. But plz make this available on test server if possible.

However I want to highlight some points
-rogue got high dodge percentage that's what stat page says, so rogue will have great advantage against other class.
-also rogue has fastest cool down on attack skill. If warrior skill are dodged by rogue then warrior will suffer most.

So I suggest if dodge is possible give equal dodge to other class too as this equal opportunity can be compensated on rogues because of fastest cool down skill of rogues.

Dodge is not a percentage, it's a number. This was proven a while ago, so 60 dodge does not mean 60% dodge. In PL, other classes had dodge gear to get their dodge high. This option is also present in AL as well.

[Safiras]

Umm what about razor shield?

Have you ever seen a rogue praise razor shield as a nice skill to use?

[yubaraj]

Dodge is not a percentage, it's a number. This was proven a while ago, so 60 dodge does not mean 60% dodge. In PL, other classes had dodge gear to get their dodge high. This option is also present in AL as well.

Okay. If you say so.

Then it might be a bug showing that % sign. Is that in your bug list too?

[Suentous PO]

Pretty sure PL still isn't balanced...

Few would say it is after lv 50.
One huge difference there is that any class uses any items regardless of class. So in later caps one set would mostly rule and usually one or two classes made the most advantage of that and dominated for that cap.
I imagine the devs saw this as a problem and that's why it's not implemented in AL.

Regarding dodge, the devs would have to be careful to avoid the same problems that dodge caused in pvp imbalance in pl.
namely that the way it was structured to progress became a large problem with the tanks and mages becoming the god classes of pvp while the archer could do nothing better than any other class.

Sound familiar?

[Zeus]

Okay. If you say so.

Then it might be a bug showing that % sign. Is that in your bug list too?

It is a visual bug. Developers have confirmed on multiple occasions that dodge is not a percentage.

[Litheus]

since many said rogues are balanced in a 1v1 situation and they are useless in clashes. they have to get a buff not from within but from outside to keep their power in check so that they cant rule pvp as a class. like getting buffed from other classes. like warrior's vb or jugg can effect rogues by a small % or buffed by a mage etc

[Saud]

Give them there damage for a week
And look at the kills/death
Just like the blance thing we had be4
And if its too much they kill
Give them %8 dmg
Just like a bouns, but not with the original %dmg gear
P.S : i am a mage

[Breakingbadxx]

Someone pointed out giving the shadow-pierce skill the ability to grant 50% damage reduction or 50% more armour for 5 seconds after hitting a minimum of 3 targets. I believe mages have an upgrade in their whirlwind skill granting 50% more armour for some seconds.

I think could actually be a really good solution.

What do you guys think?

[Lawpvp]

Someone pointed out giving the shadow-pierce skill the ability to grant 50% damage reduction or 50% more armour for 5 seconds after hitting a minimum of 3 targets. I believe mages have an upgrade in their whirlwind skill granting 50% more armour for some seconds.

I think could actually be a really good solution.

What do you guys think?

an armor buff would be useless because any armor reduction would simply cancel it out. %dmg reduction added to shadow pierce however could be a viable option. But then twinks are screwed because my maxed 17 rogue already wrecks everything 15-19.

There would need to be a way set a floor on the lvl at which rogues could utilize this dmg reduction. Personally I think they should just rework Razor shield to have a set amount of dmg reduction within the skill itself which can be expanded upon through mastery. 10% in comparison to that of Arcane Sheild or Juggernaut is a joke.

[yubaraj]

May be 2 sec invulnerability in razor shield as mage and warrior. May be that's good enough to survive crossing warrior and nuke mages. Mage are so vulnerable without arcane shield. And little bit less using SP in clash situation may help.

Just a suggestion lol.

[Breakingbadxx]

May be 2 sec invulnerability in razor shield as mage and warrior. May be that's good enough to survive crossing warrior and nuke mages. Mage are so vulnerable without arcane shield. And little bit less using SP in clash situation may help.

Just a suggestion lol.
And it's a good suggestion. Thanks. (Apart from the SP comment) I'm sure that to those rogues experienced in PvP here, that is 'common sense'.

The problem here clearly lies beyond a lack of 'common sense'.

[Fredystern]

How about stacking same character on a team will decrease the team damage that got same job

I mean if stacking 4 tank thier damage will drop 10%/tank in team, so they damage will descrease 40% each tank
If 2 mage on team then both mage will got 20% damage decreased, so they wont really usefull on making DoT in clash
While rog got thier critical or damage reduce by 10% for each rog in team

This wont reduce your damage if you disnt have same job on your team so your damage wont get reduce

[Breakingbadxx]

How about stacking same character on a team will decrease the team damage that got same job

I mean if stacking 4 tank thier damage will drop 10%/tank in team, so they damage will descrease 40% each tank
If 2 mage on team then both mage will got 20% damage decreased, so they wont really usefull on making DoT in clash
While rog got thier critical or damage reduce by 10% for each rog in team

This wont reduce your damage if you disnt have same job on your team so your damage wont get reduce
So ideally it works almost like a class restriction but stacking more and more of a class results in increasingly critical debuffs.

It works just as well as the class restriction but without the negative effects of being unable to play with friends etc.

For example, in a fair classed 5v5 DPS clash, both sides would experience the same debuffs.

With this, its not necessary to buff or nerf classes.

Depending on how much the debuffs hurts the assigned classes (I would hope that it makes it so people won't even consider using more than 2 of the same class in a PvP room).

It essentially eradicates class stacking in PvP if done right.

This seems like a really good idea.

What do you guys think?

[Lawpvp]

So ideally it works almost like a class restriction but stacking more and more of a class results in increasingly critical debuffs.

It works just as well as the class restriction but without the negative effects of being unable to play with friends etc.

For example, in a fair classed 5v5 DPS clash, both sides would experience the same debuffs.

With this, its not necessary to buff or nerf classes.

Depending on how much the debuffs hurts the assigned classes (I would hope that it makes it so people won't even consider using more than 2 of the same class in a PvP room).

It essentially eradicates class stacking in PvP if done right.

This seems like a really good idea.

What do you guys think?

Personally I think the best long term solution is to fix the rogue class itself by tweaking skills rather than findind a way to compensate for the ineffectiveness of rogues in a team setting at endgame.

And by all means, with whatever changes are made, leave twinks alone

[Breakingbadxx]

Personally I think the best long term solution is to fix the rogue class itself by tweaking skills rather than findind a way to compensate for the ineffectiveness of rogues in a team setting at endgame.

And by all means, with whatever changes are made, leave twinks alone

The issue is most 'tweaks' done to skills specifically, end up creating more and more problems on the long-run.

The end result is normally an endless chain of 'tweaking' to try and get people to the same level, which never succeeds.

For example, mages received a significant buff to their heal skill and arcane shield skill. This buff has become a thorn in the side of the rogue class. So, we are back to an attempt at buffing rogues for almost the same reason mages needed the heal skill and arcane shield skill buffs in the first place.

[Zeus]

The issue is most 'tweaks' done to skills specifically, end up creating more and more problems on the long-run.

The end result is normally an endless chain of 'tweaking' to try and get people to the same level, which never succeeds.

For example, mages received a significant buff to their heal skill and arcane shield skill. This buff has become a thorn in the side of the rogue class. So, we are back to an attempt at buffing rogues for almost the same reason mages needed the heal skill and arcane shield skill buffs in the first place.

Even when sorcerers were at their weakest, they still always had a place in clash. The amount of buffs they've received now is so ridiculous that they've replaced rogues...

[Sevencent]

Does dodge work only for attacks or spells as well, and then I wonder if it does for area spells or only single target ones

[Zeus]

Does dodge work only for attacks or spells as well, and then I wonder if it does for area spells or only single target ones


Only for auto attack/pet

[Litheus]

At twink levels like 15,16 etc rogues are very strong. They have high damage n high HP. It's almost impossible to kill a rogue in 1v1 n very hard in clash coz high HP.

[Zeus]

May be 2 sec invulnerability in razor shield as mage and warrior. May be that's good enough to survive crossing warrior and nuke mages. Mage are so vulnerable without arcane shield. And little bit less using SP in clash situation may help.

Just a suggestion lol.

Nice suggestion. I just wanted to add on that most experienced rogues usually know that SP means certain death. So, that leaves us with aim and nox. :D

[Fredystern]

Personally I think the best long term solution is to fix the rogue class itself by tweaking skills rather than findind a way to compensate for the ineffectiveness of rogues in a team setting at endgame.

And by all means, with whatever changes are made, leave twinks alone

Sure leave twink alone, that will just work in 46+ so no warrior stacking and stay in corner for lava T.T its really hard to avoid the pull when there's a glint set

[Blank119]

I dont think , we need to change the rouge, as a rouge ,its already good and i think they should just adjust the arcane shield and juggernaut skill.

[Zynzyn]

At twink levels like 15,16 etc rogues are very strong. They have high damage n high HP. It's almost impossible to kill a rogue in 1v1 n very hard in clash coz high HP.

That is not true. Good maxed twink tanks can kill good maxed rogues in 1v1 and vice versa. Depends on stun timing and heal fails. And for teamfights, tank is most wanted even at low levels, followed by curse mage. Please dont misinform. Its always "jjj need tank" or "out we have no tank" for our bracket, Valkeroth.

[Ireliaa]

buff the rogue damage in pvp to make them glass cannon not just glass even mages admitting damage is too low that in class environment they can easly outheal it. and mage can easyly replace rogue. its not essential to team its liability because of gass part

rogue has no crowd control, no powerful heal as mage or warr, no shield
yet the damage is comparable to mage not to mention we have tiny mana pool so you cant spam as much as you want

thats all i dont wanna wait a year for this to happen

[Carapace]

Some good stuff in here guys, I encourage you to check out VROOM's post he just made: http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?359351-PvP-Updates-Proposed-Balance-Changes-(7-21-16)