Why Force Shield and Protection are a waste of points

[IBNobody]

NOTE: This reflects the current state of the game on 09/04/11.

Thanks to Kamakazees' report on Armor properties, I wanted to share my thoughts on Protection and Force Shield.

*** Protection adds +10/+20/+30/+40/+50/+60 armor to the whole party for 2 minutes. Rank 6 equates to ~1-2 damage points reduced per hit.

The armor amount does not scale with level, so at 20+, you barely notice the damage reduction. The only beneficial effect Protection has is a placebo effect on people who don't know how armor works. If you don't cast it, people may get angry with you or think you are an incompetent player.

*** Force Shield adds +20/+40/+60/+80/+100/+120 armor and +1 regen to your character for 30s, has a 45s cooldown, costs 10 Energy. The shield only works for the first 25/35/45/55/65/75 damage your character takes. Rank 6 equates to ~2-3 damage points reduced per hit. With Protection, that equates to ~3-4 damage points per hit.

Again, the armor amount does not scale with level, so at 20+, you barely notice the damage reduction. What's worse is that Force Shield only lasts for up to 65 damage. That's NOT damage blocked, but total damage. At level 20+ on Numa Prime, that can equate to 2-3 attacks. So best case, you only get ~6-9 damage points blocked for spending 6 skill points.

Force Shield's only redeeming quality is that it also provides +1 energy regen (or +2 energy regen at rank 4). This means you get 1 (or 2) extra energy point every 1 second tick. Since the skill costs 10 energy, it takes the skill 10s (or 5s) to recoup the energy cost. That leaves 20s (25s), or 20 (25) ticks of extra energy. End result: You spend 10 energy and get back 30 (60), for a net gain of 20 (50). This equates to an ideal effective energy recovery rate of 0.44e/s (1.11e/s)

That energy isn't guaranteed, though. If you get hit and lose your shield, you lose out on the potential energy. In these situations, you're better off just guzzling an energy potion.

It may make more sense to invest in Leech for personal protection. Leech says it lasts for 3x 2s ticks (but I've counted 4x 2s ticks). The advantage of Leech, though, is that it scales with your weapon damage. Even if only one rank 1 leech tick fires off, I was seeing +15 health recovered on my lv. 23 Engineer. That's more than the ~6-9 damage that a rank 6 force shield gave me.

If you are considering putting points into Force Shield for better energy returns, don't max the skill out! Consider either stopping at 1 (to get the base recovery) or stopping at 4 (for the 2 energy per second) and then investing 2 extra points in Revive. Revive provides a hidden 1 energy per second recovery rate buff for 60s. Bringing Revive to rank 3 reduces its cost to 10 energy and thus, increases its effective recovery from 0.67e/s to 0.83e/s.

Keep in mind, though, that these energy gains are short-term. The skill costs remain constant across ranks, but your recovery rate and your maximum energy pool will increase. According to Bronislav, you get an extra energy recovery point every 143 INT. That means with gear that provides INT, you're likely to see an extra point around levels 20-25 and 30-35 (assuming gear scales up linearly). You'll also be likely to find implants or armor pieces that add energy recovery directly. As the game expands, these gains might outpace the recovery benefits of Force Shield.


---

In summary, skills that provide a fixed bonus risk becoming obsolete with level. They do not track with the player. A better solution for these skills would be to make them increase by percentages. And for Force shield, eliminating the durability factor would make it more useful and reliable.

Regardless, in their current form, you get more bang-for-the-buck by putting points in other skills.

[BodMaster]

Come to the same conclusion so when i was able to re-spec these had to go.. now I still have some players moan when I tell them I dnt have protection or shield.. (if your a engi you no matter support or dmg.. you need at least one point in rev)but oh well b00ns will be b00ns afterall no matter what level if they dont take the time to work out the mechanics of a game like this they will just go by what sound the best.. xD

[Redbridge]

Interesting. So if I'm playing a full support engie and Leech is already at 6 where would you suggest I spend these points? my skill build is

0-1-6-1
3-0-6-6
1-0-0-0

This means if what ur saying is right I'm wasting 9 skill points. WOW.

Would you actually suggest leaving one in Protection for 'placebo' effect or would you suggest risking the multiple discussions that will ensue to reeducate players, like me...lol

Thanks for pointing this out. May need to RESPEC once I come back from PL update.

[noneo]

Red,

I am in the same situation as you as far as not know what exactly to do with my skills.

I believe this to be my new optimal build (given the new community information on how armor works).

0-5-6-1
6-0-0-6
1-0-0-0

I'll start from the top left;

Wither - I don't see a real benefit of this untill PVP comes out. You can get similar damage with Leech with the addition of a nice heal.
Leech - I put this skill high due to the fact that while doing some Numa runs, there have been many close-calls which this skill can help you get through. It does a decent amount of damage, but more importantly - it gives you a heal. This combined with empathy, and transference will give you much-o healing.
Empahy - You need this maxed, period.
Revive - another necessary skill
Force Shield - This is one that I personally feel strongly toward, but many others do not. This skill gives you a whopping 2 M/S which can come in very handy when being frugal with your powerpacks. I find it is most effective in two situations; When running between groups of mobs (i.e. right after you exit combat, cast it, and by the time you get to the other group you should have a nice boost in mana. (also, cast this in addition to revive for even faster regen). And the other situation is when you are in a boss fight - but do not have aggro. That last statement is crucial. If you cast this with aggro, it will dissapear in a second or two (as it only deters 75 damage). However, if you cast with out having aggro, you will usually allow the skill to last the entire 30 seconds, or at least most of that time.) This skill offers double armor - which can help you get through that uneventful mega-hit from a strong mob as well.
Suppression - I personally like Pain more, as it lasts through damage. But this skill is nice because it can stop a whole group of mobs in their tracks. I chose pain over this.
Protection - You guys pretty much hit the nail on the head with this one, pretty useless (also, see my response from another thread below this for my thoughts).
Transference - Another main healing and damage skill (AOE)
Pain - to me, a necessary skill. It stops any 1 mob in its tracks and allows the whole team to destroy it without anyone taking damge. (good to cast when you are waiting for other skills to regen)

This is my response to another thread asking if Protection was usefull or not, I'll post it here if anyone is interested.


This is something that I am on the fence about and not sure which way to go. Originally, Protection offered a group stacking buff and could pump up your armor a few hundred points. But now, since we know that armor vs. damage in SL is not a 1:1 ratio, things got messy. It is estimated (I have not done any actual testing, but this is based off of what I heard on the forums) that 35 - 50 points of armor reduce your taken damage by 1 point. When the buffs stacked, that meant you could reduce damage by around 6 points. This may not seem like a lot, but think about yourself walking into a group of mobs all doing damage on you; you were essentially reducing your damage intake by 6*(8 or 10 mobs) = 50 - 60 points every time they hit you. However, with the removal of the stacking ability, protection can now impose a maximum of 60 armor points, which gives us a reduction of 1.5 damage taken (maximum). Do the same calculation and we see 1.5*(8 or 10 mobs) = 12 points every time you get hit by the group of mobs. So this definitely does add up in a mufti-combat scenario, but realistically, I can't see this amount of damage being a "make-or-break" amount. Alternatively, when you are facing a boss such as Guardian, this buff does basically nothing. Sure it reduces your damage intake by a bunch of 1.5's but your Engineer in the group will be casting Transference and Empathy non-stop anyway and will cover this damage.

Additionally, it doesn't really make sense to only put a few points in Protection as that would do virtually nothing in combat (i.e. 3 points damage reduction is barely even noticeable in a multi-combat situation).

With that said, you should think, "are their any other skills I would like to invest these points in"? If not, then put them in Protection, if so, weigh the pros and cons and choose from there.

I sense that the skills being contemplated here are Protection and Force Shield. If that is the case, let us discuss Force Shield. This skill gives you a "shield" (that doesn't actually protect you), of which offers up to 120 armor and a +2 M/S increase. The bad portion of this skill is that the shield doesn't last AT ALL in combat (unless you have no aggro from any mob, which rarely happens because Engineers are aggro stealers). Sure the added armor would help, but if the shield goes down from being hit too much, your armor dissapears. The only real thing I use this for when running between groups of mobs, and for boss fights. When running, I only cast to build up some more Mana before the next fight, as this does reduce my powerpack usage slightly. And with boss fights, I will only cast if I do not have the aggro and want to utilize the +2 M/S. If you have aggro, this skill is a total waste, it will last for, let's say 2 seconds; Wow! You gained a massive 4 mana! i.e. a waste.

The only other skills I may invest in with these points would be Wither or Leech, and more preferably Leech. Leech would at least do a decent amount of damage to a boss in a fight (pretty pointless in multi-combat), and give you some healing in a pinch. Or, if the devs decide to reduce the cool-down of Sonic Boom (since no one uses it now), I would invest them in that skill to give me a good AOE boost.

Oh how I dream of the day where the Engineer get a buff that is actually worth while, like dodge, or a damage buff.

[GigaBits]

Solid info, absolutely worth thinking about. Two corrections though. At max level force shield takes 75 damage and at max level it returns +2 energy. You get the +2 at rank 5, IIRC.

IMO, the damage difference doesn't really change anything but the +2 energy means it only takes 5 seconds to return energy and you can get 60 energy back if it lasts full duration.
EDIT: changed 30 to 60 energy, thanks for pointing out my mistake noneo. I also incorrectly reported the rank at which mana changes to +2. It is 4 not 5:cool:

[noneo]

and you can get 30 energy back if it lasts full duration.

This is actually 60 Mana if it lasts it's full duration.

[GigaBits]

Lol, i just read your other post in this thread noneo, u basically said everything I was thinking, only better :). Not that anyone is interested but here is my build
0-0-6-1
6-4-0-6
1-0-0-0

I haven't got to 26 yet and I'm unsure where that point will go. I've chosen 4 in suppression for max number of mobs stunned and 1 in pain because the damage increase doesn't matter to me. To me this build has been more engaging and fun in groups.

[Register]

Neat info! Im def. changing up how im levleing my engineer now. At first I thought the first post would be some crappy random post from a clueless and rude player....I thought wrong! very well written!

+1 for well written...ness!
+1 for seperating points!
-1/2 for not having a summary

Just sayin.....a summary woulda been cool....Trololol

[IBNobody]

Ahh, Force Shield goes from +1 to +2 Energy at rank 5? Noneo, if that's true, you may want to update your guide.

----

I've switched from a protection build to:
1x Wither
4x Leech
6x Empathy
3x Suppression
1x Revive
6x Transference
1x Pain

My next 3 points going to max out Leech and then to Wither.

I put a point into wither because it's not that bad of a skill. It does as much damage per tick as Leech, lasts longer, and recharges faster. Against long boss battles such as the Guardian, any little bit of DOT helps.

[IBNobody]

Neat info! Im def. changing up how im levleing my engineer now. At first I thought the first post would be some crappy random post from a clueless and rude player....I thought wrong! very well written!

+1 for well written...ness!
+1 for seperating points!
-1/2 for not having a summary

Just sayin.....a summary woulda been cool....Trololol

Fixed. Thanks for your feedback. I'll also try to be more clueless and rude in the future! LOL

[shannong]

Protection is currently worthless, agreed. But I strongly disagree with dropping Force Shield too. Force Shield is indeed worthless for the armor component, but it is PRICELESS for the +2 power regen at 5 skill points. Between this skill, Revive's hidden +1 regen bonus, and the +1 regen plat implat, I have +4 power regen working for me full time.

Let me put it this way: I have done a LOT of guardian runs on my engy now. I never, ever use a single power pot. Never. And I never drop below 80 percent power for most of the run, and never drop lower than 30 percent power on Guardian himself. Usually I'm more at 50 percent power by the time we kill him. And I constantly spam Empathy, Transferrence, and Pain immediately on cool down in every single fight. I never have to pace my skill usage to conserve power. Can you say the same?

Without the nearly constant +2 from Force Shield, what I do would be impossible, and I'd be less useful for healing and AOE damage support to my teams. I'd have to burn at least 5-10 power pots per guardian run, if not more, to pay for the amount of useful skill spam for every fight.

[IBNobody]

I understand where you are coming from, but consider this. You've spent 5 skill points on a skill that only outputs energy 25s out of 45s (5s to recoup the cost + 25s of production + 15s cooldown). That's an effective recovery rate of 1.11 energy per tick (25/45 * 2).

Is spending 5 skill points worth, at best, 1.11 energy per second?

In your case, maybe there's an alternative? Spend 1 skill point on FS and dump 3 into revive?

If Revive's hidden buff lasts 1 minute and costs 20 energy, you need to spend 20s to recover the cost. That gives you 40s, or 40 ticks of energy recovery every minute from Revive. That translates to a recovery rate of 0.67 energy per tick. If you pump 2 extra skill points into revive (3 total), you only spend 10s recovering the cost and 50s of energy generation. That translates to 0.83 energy per tick.

5 FS + 1 Revive = 1.78 energy per tick
1 FS + 3 Revive = 1.27 energy per tick, + 2 free skill points.

EDIT: This translates to a difference of 0.5 energy per second, or a difference of 5 energy every 10s.

I would argue that the energy you gain from 1 FS + 3 Revive would be more easily sustainable since damage cannot disrupt it. You'd need to be spot on for your revive timings to hit that number. Maybe recast every 8th pain or every 10th transference?

[MaxxSteele]

I love the stats, and thank you for the number crunching, but I disagree. Force Shield and Protection are very helpful.

[shannong]

It's easy enough to test IBNobody's numbers and theorycrafting. I'll do some consecutive Guardian runs where I do it my current way, and then do some more where I just don't cast FS at all. If I don't notice a *significant* difference in my power reserves and I don't need to drink any power pots, then IBNobody is right. I'll test and report back when I've been able to do about 4 runs for each trial.

[IBNobody]

I love the stats, and thank you for the number crunching, but I disagree. Force Shield and Protection are very helpful.

I'm interested in hearing why. You can't just leave us hanging!


It's easy enough to test IBNobody's numbers and theorycrafting. I'll do some consecutive Guardian runs where I do it my current way, and then do some more where I just don't cast FS at all. If I don't notice a *significant* difference in my power reserves and I don't need to drink any power pots, then IBNobody is right. I'll test and report back when I've been able to do about 4 runs for each trial.

It's very theorycraftish. In practical use, you'll likely not be able to achieve those gains I listed because of the slop inherent in the system. You lose 0.5 seconds or so in latency alone. Then you have the lag of switching skill pages and of using multiple skills.

Still, if you are focused on optimizing energy regeneration, consider putting 4 points in FS and 3 points in revive. That would give you 1.94 energy per second, best case. You may have to wait 'till Sloucho to do this.

Keep in mind, though, that even these energy gains are short-term effects. Skill costs do not increase, but your energy reserves and recovery rates will. If you are already seeing a potionless benefit at 4.12 energy per tick (+2 natural, +1 implant, +1.94 FS/REV), wouldn't a future +3 implant or enough INT to grant +4 natural fill the gap better than these skills do?

[thequickone]

First of all, what a great read! When I saw the thread's title, I said to myself "Oh, boy. Here we go again! Someone's gonna get all grandstandy and armwavy without offering any backup to their crazy ramblings...". What, you don't think I really said that to myself? :confused:

Anyway, I was totally proven wrong. Even though I have loved spamming Protection and topping off mana with Force Shield, and didn't want to hear what you were saying, I have heard you and your backup loud and clear. I think more than anything else, I am disappointed with the SL armor mechanic and the pitiful buff offered by Protection (STS may have to rename the skill - "Minor Protection"? "Protection, Sorta"?). I am also not looking forward to other players asking why I am not casting Protection any more... :(

Regarding Force Shield; I do not believe the armor mechanic revelation either should or will affect the overall use of Force Shield. That is, so long as no one is actually using Force Shield for its Armor buff (please tell me no one is!). STS may need to change this one's name, too - "Mana Bubble"? "Regen Bubble"? Currently, I use Force Shield for its mana regen buff, and only utilize the armor buff once my mana has been topped off. I have Force Shield at level 4 and in slot four (top) of my main skill tab, where it will happily stay. One quick correction; Force Shield gives its +2 M/s buff at level 4, not level 5. So there's 1 Skill Point back, anyway...

One thing not mentioned yet (here, anyway) are the larger ramifications of the armor mechanic revelation. What about my beloved Dura-Skin Armor Implant (50 Armor)? Is that really only reducing my taken damage by 1 point?! What about the Com's beloved Increase Mass skill? Yeah, I maxxed that skill after respec yesterday, used it today, and I was still taking damage (ikr, wtf?!)!! Is that skill really only reducing taken damage by 6 points for its whole five seconds?! Maybe we'll have to stop spamming that skill, too! Can anyone else see the fabric of reality starting to tear? :eek:

On the plus side, maybe more people will see the futility of wearing any armor at all, and we will start seeing more naked runs!


I love the stats, and thank you for the number crunching, but I disagree. Force Shield and Protection are very helpful.
Please elaborate. I believe I felt the same as you when I began reading about my beloved Engie skills. I don't understand how you could read what the others have written and still feel the same, at least about Protection, anyway. We really would like to hear what you have to say.


Thanks to Kamakazees' report on Armor properties
If possible, please provide a link to that thread. I would like to read more, and I am having a heck of a time trying to find it!

Alright, 'nuff said. Now I'm off to respec my Engie...again. At least I'll have some more Skill Points to spread around! :D

[IBNobody]

My math was wrong because I confused spell timing ticks with recovery ticks. Snannong, I was shortchanging you about 0.6 energy per second.

As for the links...

Armor Study:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?34773-How-much-Armor-actually-protects-a-Numa-Prime-Study!

Implant Study (For QuickOne):
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?35290-Implant-Comparison-Guide-Hit-vs.-Crit-vs.-Damage

[IBNobody]

One thing not mentioned yet (here, anyway) are the larger ramifications of the armor mechanic revelation. What about my beloved Dura-Skin Armor Implant (50 Armor)? Is that really only reducing my taken damage by 1 point?! What about the Com's beloved Increase Mass skill? Yeah, I maxxed that skill after respec yesterday, used it today, and I was still taking damage (ikr, wtf?!)!! Is that skill really only reducing taken damage by 6 points for its whole five seconds?! Maybe we'll have to stop spamming that skill, too! Can anyone else see the fabric of reality starting to tear? :eek:

If it makes you feel any better, 300 armor is still a lot for our current levels. If you are a commando and have aggro on a bunch of trash mobs that are all hitting you (multiple strikes per second), 6 damage reduction active 50% of the time can add up quickly. Since Protection only offers 1 damage reduction 100% of the time, it doesn't scale as fast. Our heals, which fortunately scale with max weapon damage, can easily make up for no Protection at higher levels.

At some point, Increase Mass will become obsolete. It's just not obsolete yet.

[piyoni1]

For all eng. players,

forget about all the numbers and calculations be a pure game lover person.. so u can try in a pass protected solo map if protection works or not...i tried and imo it really gives nothing important in high lvl maps..

however i am tired of explaining people that protection is not usefull.. so i put 1 point protection
for placebo effect... they think they become better fighters if they see blue square on their feet lol...and u know people start to kick u out because u did not cast protection lol..

for implants i prefer dodge +5, and plat. weopan gives +3 , at lvl25 u will have total 10 dodge with sunwalker set.. imo it is more balanced regarding attack and defence....

[shannong]

You can have 20 dodge as an Engy by using platinum armor and the +dodge platinum rifle (which is way better than the green Savage Claws anyway). This enables you to wear the +regen implant. Yes, it's all plat gear but it's 20 dodge and 1 extra regen! Andit supports the game and helps us keep getting new content.

I think both Engies and Commos should consider the platinum gear primarily for high dodge. I think only operatives can easily skip most or all of the plat gear.

And yes, for commos, that 6 damage mitigation from a maxed increased mass really, truly adds up fast in the alpha strike of Typical Numa mods. With 6 IM and 6 Vigor and 6 Kinetic Resevoir, you can do your job well and almost never burn a single pot, except maybe against Guardian if you're the one dragging him to the cliff and your healer isn't covering you while you do so.

Granted, the effectiveness of Increase Mass and Vigor will diminish as they raise the level cap, but right now it's perfectly useful.

[noneo]

Energy at rank 5? Noneo, if that's true, you may want to update your guide.

Thanks, I already updated.


Force Shield gives its +2 M/s buff at level 4, not level 5.

And thank you as well, I will update my guide again :p

[noneo]

If Revive's hidden buff lasts 1 minute and costs 20 energy

That is true, Revive lasts 1 minute unaffected by damage taken, and things of that sort. Whereas Force Shield can sometimes be be destroyed in mere seconds if it is cast incorrectly.

Overall, it seems like the discussion now between FS and Rev is based off of overall M/S rate.

I want to just compare a few different builds for these two skills.

Scenario 1: You will spend an initial 10 Mana on Revive (lvl 3), and 10 Mana on Force Shield (lvl 4) you see:
+1 M/S + 2 M/S = 3 M/S which lasts for 30 seconds, and then 1 M/S for 30 seconds, giving you a theoretical 90+30 mana = 120 mana - (casted mana use = 20 mana)
= 100 Mana gained in one minute, Utilize 7 skill points

Scenario 2: You will spend an initial 20 Mana on Revive (lvl 1), and 10 Mana on Force Shield (lvl 4).
+1 M/S + 2 M/S = 3 M/S which lasts for 30 seconds, and then 1 M/S for 30 seconds, giving you a theoretical 90+30 mana = 120 mana - (casted mana use = 30 mana)
= 90 Mana gained in one minute, Utilize 5 skill points

Scenario 3: You will spend an initial 10 Mana on Revive (lvl 3), and 10 Mana on Force Shield (lvl 1).
+1 M/S + 1 M/S = 2 M/S which lasts for 30 seconds, and then 1 M/S for 30 seconds, giving you a theoretical 60+30 mana = 90 mana - (casted mana use = 20 mana)
= 70 Mana gained in one minute, Utilize 4 skill points

Scenario 4: You will spend an initial 20 Mana on Revive (lvl 1), and 10 Mana on Force Shield (lvl 1).
+1 M/S + 1 M/S = 2 M/S which lasts for 30 seconds, and then 1 M/S for 30 seconds, giving you a theoretical 60+30 mana = 90 mana - (casted mana use = 30 mana)
= 60 Mana gained in one minute, Utilize 2 skill points
To me, scenario 3 is pointless. You use 2 more skill points just to give you an increase of 10 mana. Not really worth it.

Also, (using the same logic) scenario 1 doesn't make much sense either. You use up 2 more skill points than scenario 2 just to give you 10 more mana per minute.

So my recommendations would be to use Scenario 4 or Scenario 2. These use 2 and 5 skill points respectively, and will offer you either 60 or 90 mana per minute. This will allow you to spend these points on better DoT or healing skills that will really help you. (and honestly, if you use a couple powerpacks here and there, whatever).

[IBNobody]

That's a handy simplification, Noneo.

I would suggest...

Scenario 5: You will spend an initial 20 Mana on Revive (lvl 1), and 0 Mana on Force Shield (not learned).
+1 M/S + 0 M/S = 1 M/S which lasts for 30 seconds, and then 1 M/S for 30 seconds, giving you a theoretical 30+30 mana = 60 mana - (casted mana use = 20 mana)
= 40 Mana gained in one minute, Utilize 1 skill points

...and...

Scenario 6: You will spend an initial 0 Mana on Revive (not learned), and 10 Mana on Force Shield (lvl 1).
Your party will wipe because you didn't invest in the single-most important skill.
= Who cares! You've failed at being an Engineer!

(Sorry... Couldn't resist.)

[kamikazees]

I agree that Protection is useless right now (am hoping for a change though), but Force Shield is very useful. It is a great skill for the mana regen and for the shield itself.

I look at it this way. Force Shield levels 4 and up (2 m/s) needs to be active 5 seconds to recoup its cost. Revive is the only other skill that recoups its cost, and that takes 20 seconds. I can use Force Shield and never have to energy stim on Guardian runs. I cannot do that with just Revive. Because stim packs are expensive to a poor player like me, that means Force Shield = awesome.

But it's not just that. So what if it gets destroyed? Force Shield is a great spike preventer. If Force Shield does not last 5 seconds, it is because you are being attacked. At level 4, something destroying it has hit you for about 65 damage (55 + whatever your armor absorbs). At level 6, something destroying it has hit you for about 85 damage (75 + whatever your armor absorbs). My lvl 26 full int Engineer in Sunwalker eq has 273 hit points. 65 damage is about 24% of her health. 75 damage is about 31% of her health. Force Shield has saved me many times from a Vular knockdown, or Guardian's massive hits. I can usually get 3 to 4 casts of it fighting Guardian. It gives Empathy or Transferrence time to tick, or me time to use a health stim if needed, or kite. And it can do it again in 45 seconds. How often do you think Protection will absorb 85 damage in 45 seconds? Not often.

If it lasts its whole duration, it's done its job. If it doesn't last, it's also done its job. The real debate is whether to boost it all the way to 6, or leave it at 4.

[IBNobody]

But it's not just that. So what if it gets destroyed? Force Shield is a great spike preventer. If Force Shield does not last 5 seconds, it is because you are being attacked. At level 4, something destroying it has hit you for about 65 damage (55 + whatever your armor absorbs). At level 6, something destroying it has hit you for about 85 damage (75 + whatever your armor absorbs). My lvl 26 full int Engineer in Sunwalker eq has 273 hit points. 65 damage is about 24% of her health. 75 damage is about 31% of her health. Force Shield has saved me many times from a Vular knockdown, or Guardian's massive hits. I can usually get 3 to 4 casts of it fighting Guardian. It gives Empathy or Transferrence time to tick, or me time to use a health stim if needed, or kite. And it can do it again in 45 seconds. How often do you think Protection will absorb 85 damage in 45 seconds? Not often.

I did not see it blocking damage as you say it blocks damage. I received damage, and then it popped. I didn't see it act as a shield, but I could be wrong. If you have points in the skill, can you confirm on a solo map that it absorbs damage?

[kamikazees]

I did not see it blocking damage as you say it blocks damage. I received damage, and then it popped. I didn't see it act as a shield, but I could be wrong. If you have points in the skill, can you confirm on a solo map that it absorbs damage?
Does it not block damage? I thought it did because the skill description says, "the shield bursts when it takes xx damage." But I've never tested it. If that's not the case then a good chunk of second part of my post is inaccurate. I would still take it to 4 points for the 2 m/s (which is where I have it now), but I would probably never go higher than that.

I have a theory that the harder the enemy hits, the more that armor reduces the hit. I am still trying to test this theory. If true, it may explain why I thought I noticed a difference in spike damage when I've used Force Shield. Hopefully I can get that answer one way or another soon.

[Raulur]

I agree about force shield being unnecessary. Dump 2 more points into revive, you will have more range and less cost. Yes you might have to use a few power stims, but thats no big deal.

I do however respectfully disagree about protection. I do not need numbers to tell me when protection is not active on Guardian runs, I can tell by how much everyone's health is fluxuating. It does make a difference on the last 2 maps of every campaign, and you will never convince me otherwise.

If you just want to grind the first few maps over and over, then no protection is not needed. The data just seems too incomplete to jump into conclusions at this time.

[IBNobody]

Does it not block damage? I thought it did because the skill description says, "the shield bursts when it takes xx damage." But I've never tested it. If that's not the case then a good chunk of second part of my post is inaccurate. I would still take it to 4 points for the 2 m/s (which is where I have it now), but I would probably never go higher than that.

I tested it, but you've got me second guessing my test method. I saw damage numbers onscreen, but maybe I didn't notice my health bar not moving? I don't recall. It would be pretty easy to test - just go to Dynastar, fire up FS, and get hit a bunch of times.


I have a theory that the harder the enemy hits, the more that armor reduces the hit. I am still trying to test this theory. If true, it may explain why I thought I noticed a difference in spike damage when I've used Force Shield. Hopefully I can get that answer one way or another soon.

If I can help in any way, just send me a PM. I'd love to contribute to your research.

[WhoIsThis]

So my recommendations would be to use Scenario 4 or Scenario 2. These use 2 and 5 skill points respectively, and will offer you either 60 or 90 mana per minute. This will allow you to spend these points on better DoT or healing skills that will really help you. (and honestly, if you use a couple powerpacks here and there, whatever).

The problem is that you are assuming that the shield will last for the full duration. At shield level 1 on a guardian run, that's pretty improbable. I suppose that the incentive to add more shield points is that it can last a bit more. Whether this justifies it though is open to debate and probably depends on player preferences.

Protection though I think is not worth it. It offers little protection against what it needs most - high burst damage from Vulars and bosses, despite the slope scaling. Here, shield offers at least some (albeit limited) protection. Against ordinary mobs, who don't do lots of damage per hit, but swarm, leading to multiple low damage hits, the 1-2 less damage per hit will have a noticeable effect. But as mentioned before, against those opponents, you really don't need protection because you have time to react. Against things like the Vular though ... it's another matter. Deaths can be extremely rapid, and here 1-2 damage isn't going to make any real difference. Against mobs though, it can be helpful. The real question is, does it justify sacrificing points elsewhere? Imo, no. I maxed damage output because the longer an enemy is alive, the more damage the team sustains.

Edit:
@ OP:
Armor DOES scale as you add more. It's just that you have to add so much armor that you need to add A LOT of armor in order to see a visible effect. Protection the problem is, only adds 60.

[shannong]

I haven't tracked this down to the source yet, but on our guild internal forums, it's reported that in higher levels such as Numa dungeons (or perhaps just on the harder Numa dungeons), the mitigation from armor has been tested out at roughly 33 points of Armor to mitigate 1 point of incoming damage. If true, this means that armor scales differently depending on enemy level or dungeon level etc. If true, this also means that armor is *more* valuable the higher you go.

Or maybe what's really happening is that armor mitigation is relative to YOUR level versus the ENEMY's level. In other words, in a 1:1 matchup (level-wise), armor does 1 mitigation per X armor points. In a 1<1 matchup, armor does 1+n mitigation per X armor points. In a 1>1 matchup, armor does 1-n mitigaton per X armor points. Or some type of relative scaling like that.

[IBNobody]

I haven't tracked this down to the source yet, but on our guild internal forums, it's reported that in higher levels such as Numa dungeons (or perhaps just on the harder Numa dungeons), the mitigation from armor has been tested out at roughly 33 points of Armor to mitigate 1 point of incoming damage. If true, this means that armor scales differently depending on enemy level or dungeon level etc. If true, this also means that armor is *more* valuable the higher you go.

Check Kamakazee's updated armor post.

Maybe...

The current system against a single enemy type is linear, as shown by KK's research.

I've shown that armor increases from (platinum) gear are linear.

My guess is that there's a second system in place that is also linear. I'll update my post if things point to me being wrong.


Or maybe what's really happening is that armor mitigation is relative to YOUR level versus the ENEMY's level. In other words, in a 1:1 matchup (level-wise), armor does 1 mitigation per X armor points. In a 1<1 matchup, armor does 1+n mitigation per X armor points. In a 1>1 matchup, armor does 1-n mitigaton per X armor points. Or some type of relative scaling like that.

Maybe... I've also noticed that sometimes specific enemies and bosses at specific map locations spawn at different levels, as represented by their EXP orbs. (Sometimes Vulars are gold, other times they are grey or blue. My level didn't change, so it must be their spawning that changes.) It wouldn't be out of the question. Many MMO's do such scaling.

The problem is, the Guardian has spawned blue to me... I am 100% suee Blue means "lower level" from some EXP testing.

[shannong]

Okay, hadn't read Kamikazee's OP in that thread for a while; only the latest replies. So.... Hmm. My engy is at 26. I guess I need to respec and see for myself what Guardian runs are like (in terms of team health variation) when applying 6 Protection to my team does versus applying no Protection at all. And I also need to try running with no Force Shield and with it at 4 points to see whether I still have sufficient mana regen without that +2m/s.

[IBNobody]

While you're at it, can you test out my assertion on Force Shield not adding a HP buffer?

I'll try to do the same.

[noneo]

Or maybe what's really happening is that armor mitigation is relative to YOUR level versus the ENEMY's level. In other words, in a 1:1 matchup (level-wise), armor does 1 mitigation per X armor points. In a 1<1 matchup, armor does 1+n mitigation per X armor points. In a 1>1 matchup, armor does 1-n mitigaton per X armor points. Or some type of relative scaling like that.

I think this is a very good theory, though I don't think it ever is a 1:1 matchup. We have far too much armor for a lvl 1 mob to do 1:1 damage:armor on us (A mob would have to be hitting over 200 damage everytime, and our armor absorb most of it, I just can't see a mob hitting that high). In Kamakaz' thred he notes that harder/easier maps distribute different armor/damage relationships, so I think the armor in this game is truly dependent on your overall level vs. the mobs overall level (and then take into consideration the bosses and your armor values).

[shannong]

Testing Results (completed):

Level 26. 6 Empathy, 1 Revive, 6 Force Shield, 6 Protect, 6 Transferrence. 20% Dodge. 293 Armor.

Testing methodology: Find a single mob I can survive by spamming Empathy (and/or potions) in various Numa zones, and let it whack on me with Force Shield alone, Protect alone, and both in combination. Watch the incoming damage numbers. Average them in my head. Write down here.


First things first, re IBNobody's assertion that Force Shield does NOT act like a typical "absorb shield" in nearly every other MMO. As far as I can tell, my results confirm his assertion. Your Force Shield does NOT seem to absorb ANY incoming damage. None. You can clearly see this with a weenie mob hitting on you, such as the first set of dogs in Numa OL. You can see that force shield lasting through 3-6 hits from a dog, and not reducing or changing the incoming red/orange hit numbers in any way compared to no Force Shield at all, aside from an expected 2-point per hit decrease from the +120 armor that FS gives you. You can watch your health bar go down with every single incoming hit.

So, it is clear that 6 FS is NOT an absorb shield for 75 points. ALL that FS does is: A) give you +120 armor for as long as it lasts, and B) gives you +2 m/s regen while you still see the bubble around you.


Numa Outer Limits:

First set of dogs. No buffs: 26 per hit. FS only: 24 per hit, lasted 3 hits on average. Protect only: 25 per hit. FS+Protect: 23 per hit while the FS lasted.


Numa Uncharted Ruins:

(thanks to my KoC guildmates who patiently helped me clear mobs and leave some single stragglers to beat on me!)

Whip-flower things. No buffs: 44 per hit, plus constant 2-per-tick DOT. FS only: hard to say because it would only ever last for 2 hits. Usually only 1. Protect only: 43 per hit, plus constant 2-per-tick DOT. FS+Protect: essentially the same as Protect only, because FS is gone in two hits. Overall, what I could see of FS it was indeed mitigating only 1 additional point of damage per hit, at best.

Dogs. No buffs: 30 per hit, plus 2-per-tick DOT about half the time. Low 23. High 38. FS only: hard to say because it would only ever last for 1 or 2 hits. Usually only 1. Protect only: 29 per hit, plus 2-per-tick DOT about half the time. Low 23. High 37. FS+Protect: essentially the same as Protect only. As for the flowers, what I could see of FS was that at best it was mitigating only 1 additional point of damage per hit.

Note: I spent the most time letting that dog in Uncharted Ruins chew on me. Like 10 minutes, with and without my buffs, really looking for whether there was any possible evidence of more misses, more blocks, fewer applications of DOT, fewer instances of criticals, fewer instances of max hits, etc. The result? Nope. All these two buffs do is a simple, straight-up armor buff (in terms of mitigation). There is no "hidden" buff that affects crits or max damage or DOTs.


My Conclusions:

Beyond any shadow of personal doubt, and based on empirical testing with no bias to prove one outcome or the other, I can attest to the fact that Protection AND FS are completely worthless investments of skills points at the moment, with the way that armor currently works and scales. Really, there's no point at all to these two skills, especially after IBNobody did the math to convince me that even if you pop FS at strategic times to run its full 30 seconds for the +2m/s regen, it's still not a worthwhile skill point investment. (look further up in this thread for those details)

I am convinced and respec-ing right now to have 0 in Force Shield, 1 in Protection, 1 in Revive, 6 in Empathy, 6 in Transferrence, at least 1 in Pain, and I haven't decided on the rest yet. Why have 1 point in Protection? For placebo effect if I end up in a PUG group that doesn't know me and know that I'm a damn good healer. Too many people think if they don't see that squared circle under their feet, the healer isn't doing their job.

I guess I should add a bit about why even 1-2 points of extra armor mitigation are "worthless". Yes, if a mob is aggroed on YOU, you might have as many as 6-8 weenies chewing on you. That's works out to AT MOST 12-16 points of damage per tick that Protection is effectively mitigating for you. Now consider that:

A) Not every member of the party receives this onslaught during an alpha spike. Only the tank does (or should, lol). And that tank has his own huge set of mitigation skills to absorb alpha spike. My tank runs with 6 Vigor and 6 Increased Mass and I laugh at UC mob alpha spikes. And with even 3 in Kinetic Reservoir, I pretty much never need to drink a power pot. (I used to run with 6 Kinetic, but that seemed like overkill for my total power burn.)

B) Have you seen how much 6 Empathy ticks for? 60 healing per tick. Have you seen how much a well-timed Transferrence ticks for? A ton. That's what. With all the raw healing output from just ONE healer in your Guardian Run, plus a good tank's native mitigation for spikes, that dinky 12-16 points of mitigation from Protection means bupkes. Nada. Squat. Zip. Zero. It's just insignificant. Trust me: I've been sole healer in many guardian runs and I have no problem keeping the team alive and healthy. I haven't run with Protection for a long time (but I had been using 4 Force Shield for the regen that I thought was better than it really was).

C) Between the healer(s)' AOE from Tranferrence, your own AOE as the tank, the AOE from at least 1 operative, etc. You HAVE seen how quickly a huge mob even in Uncharted Ruins can be decimated, right? We're talking half the mob dead within the first two seconds of the alpha strike. I've seen this time and again. So between the fast AOE killspam and the two major healing ticks working in your favor plus your own commando's resiliance with Vigor and Increased Mass, again, what is this paltry 12-16 of mitigation from Protection mean in the face of all that?

[kamikazees]

If true, this also means that armor is *more* valuable the higher you go.
I have updated my armor study again, and I think this statement is true. The harder the enemy, the more armor protects you. I don't know if "harder" means "hits you harder" or "is a high level," but check it out (in my Signature). I now have a successful test on a Vular from Uncharted Ruins!

It proves armor is *more* valuable to higher you go, but I am still not convinced that the armor we can get from Protection or the Dura-Implant is all that valuable. But compare that to Increase Mass and we may have a different story...

[shannong]

I have updated my armor study again, and I think this statement is true. The harder the enemy, the more armor protects you. I don't know if "harder" means "hits you harder" or "is a high level," but check it out (in my Signature). I now have a successful test on a Vular from Uncharted Ruins!

It proves armor is *more* valuable to higher you go, but I am still not convinced that the armor we can get from Protection or the Dura-Implant is all that valuable. But compare that to Increase Mass and we may have a different story...

Increase Mass is uber. Well, it is if you put 6 points into it. With 6 Vigor and 6 Increased Mass (per Punktate's advice and build concept), you can laugh in the face of any alpha strike in Uncharted Ruins even if your single healer in the guardian run is lagging behind or distracted. I was laughing this way when my commo was level 21, and when she gets her level 24-25 greens fully equipped she'll be laughing even harder.

[shannong]

I have updated my armor study again, and I think this statement is true. The harder the enemy, the more armor protects you. I don't know if "harder" means "hits you harder" or "is a high level," but check it out (in my Signature). I now have a successful test on a Vular from Uncharted Ruins!

It proves armor is *more* valuable to higher you go, but I am still not convinced that the armor we can get from Protection or the Dura-Implant is all that valuable. But compare that to Increase Mass and we may have a different story...

And to speak specifically to Vular, during my testing (above a few posts), I watched my guildies who were helping me clear out the big vular roaches so I could get to some doggies and flowers. With or without protection, the vular were hitting the 25/26 commandos in the group for about 60-ish per hit. What's 1-2 points mitigation added to that (from Protect)? That's a miniscule amount of extra protection against hard-hitting mini-bosses. Negligible.

[kamikazees]

And to speak specifically to Vular, during my testing (above a few posts),...the vular were hitting the 25/26 commandos in the group for about 60-ish per hit. What's 1-2 points mitigation added to that (from Protect)? ...Negligible.
Max Protection actually reduces the Vular damage by 3 points (3.33), but you are right it is negligible. The mob hits for 86.5 damage. Full lvl 25 Commando gear is 400 armor, so that reduces Vular damage by 22 points, to 64 average damage, which appears to be exactly what you saw. Add max Increased Mass (+300 armor) and a Commando can reduce Vular damage by another 16.67 damage, down to 47 or 48, which is about 1/2.

[shannong]

Ya I think the real takeaways from this thread so far are that:

The amount of mana you "earn" per skill point invested in Force Shield is very inefficient use of your skills points; the total return is negligible, especially at harder levels where typical mob encounters mean you can rarely keep your FS up and running full time.

Force Shield pops in just two hits at most pretty much every where in harder levels, so its paltry 2-4 points of incoming damage mitigation is ephemeral.

The amount of mitigation from Protection is a tiny percentage in the larger scheme of things and there are much better, more effective things to spend skill points on that will actually help your party survive better. For example, I'm amazed at how many engineers I've encountered who are level 25-26 doing guardian runs and I never see them pop a Transferrence. What-What-What??? At least half the engies I've ended up in PUG groups with from 16 onward (with my commando and operative) would use only empathy to heal and would answer "no" when I asked them if they had Transferrence. (Shakes head.)

[thequickone]

For example, I'm amazed at how many engineers I've encountered who are level 25-26 doing guardian runs and I never see them pop a Transferrence. What-What-What??? At least half the engies I've ended up in PUG groups with from 16 onward (with my commando and operative) would use only empathy to heal and would answer "no" when I asked them if they had Transferrence. (Shakes head.)

I was about to agree with you completely and give another example of an Engineer dropping the ball. In fact, I was about to get all "IKR!" or "OMG!", or even "GTFO LOL etc..." in this here thread, but then I thought of my own humble beginnings (still pretty humble, actually).

So let me offer a different example, instead; an example of an Engineer picking up the ball and running with it!

So there I was (all great stories start that way! :)), playing another PUG xp run in Outer Limits. I had just been abandoned, due to my faster-than-preferred speed, by all but this one Engineer named Ruler of Awesomeness (whose name has been changed to protect their identity). I cautioned about the risks of carrying on, asked if R.A. would like to continue, and the answer came..."Sure". Now bear in mind, I was running my Op at the time, so I was feeling a bit exposed, to say the least! I told R.A., "stick close and spam Empathy", and off we went. We proceeded to have about four more fast, safe, and successful runs. And R.A. did not spam Empathy. Rather, it began to be used precisely when I would have used it myself. Oh, and it was a dark and stormy night.

What I hope I have conveyed by the harrowing tale above is this: Given the chance, the information, and the encouragement, most players will rise above and shine. Some will even become great; the next generation of legendary players, as it were. Of course, some will not; however, I believe that number of players will be fewer. Remember, be patient and carry on.

The vast majority of us on the forums are fairly well equipped with knowledge, experience, and skill. Unfortunately, I also believe the vast majority of players in the game are not active on these forums. We share our knowledge, experience, and skill here, so why not share it in-game, as well? I'm sure many of you already do. I am also sure your sharing has occasionally been rejected or refused. However, I believe the times it has or will be absorbed make all the effort worthwhile. Besides, how else are we supposed to get the word out (to players and devs alike) about Protection being ineffective in live play?!

Again, great thread and thank you all for sharing! :D

[shannong]

Ya good story. When leveling up my oper and commando, after 16 I'd always encourage the engies I ran with in PUGs who obviously didn't yet have/understand tranferrence to give it a try.

[platonium]

Know this thread has been open a while and I'm new to SL. However, just wanted to say thanks, and ask if the revive regen is a group buff? If so, then the effective party mana regen rate could be far higher than Force Shield.

[ArtStar]

Who the.. I never seen this SG before. Lol. I agree that force shield is a waste, but 60+ armor makes a huge difference.

[Flowman]

Because this thread is from September of 2011 lol :D He's looooooong gone.

[TheRajX]

Well, armor when quantified can be...useless but through experience I have learned that what you expect never tends to be the outcome. For example, transference I have always thought to be useless in a pvp setting because it just does a small range of damage and a small heal but when I use it in a match it improves my gameplay immensely.

I have not tried experimenting by sorting out force sheild and protection points for my pve build but one thing is for sure, those armor buffs are inevitably necessary in pvp. If you don't have them consider yourself dead......

~TheRajX

[Zaonabiuibil]

Ahh necro'd thread!

[Ucazhaus]

I agree that the force shield is useless. As a full pvp engi (Zeonaloz) when fighting other engi, i pop thier shield in seconds. However, i do use protection. As a pvp engi there isnt a better place to put my points. I could get the purple thing (forget what its called) but that is a single strike skill. :/ however, if the other engi decides to run, and regen i lose. My engi deal more dmg but i cant operate for as long (lack or force sheild) so i chase and the other runs :/


@TheRajx Woooo!!! I defy ur statement!!! :D