Do dagger attacks happen even when spamming skills?

[Ellyidol]

I've been drawn to the dagger bear lately, thank Myst for that, and I'm curious on how to fully maximize a dagger bear.

A dagger bear is all about DPS, so my goal is to get the highest DPS possible (bosses mainly, no need for DPS on mobs).

My question is, if you use a dagger with a speed of 0.4 and spam skills, will your dagger still be attacking? Or will the skill animations replace your dagger attacks?

My impression is 1 bear slash = 2 dagger attacks, so with that in mind, 2 dagger attacks damage > 1 slash damage. Does this mean a dagger bear should just focus on normal attacks? Or do dagger attacks go through despite spamming of skills?

[Riccits]

if been wondering same for long time too. not only for dagger but any weapons. especially how the slow ones are affected by skill spams

does actual daggers have enough base damage to do some real dmg?

[Ellyidol]

if been wondering same for long time too. not only for dagger but any weapons. especially how the slow ones are affected by skill spams

does actual daggers have enough base damage to do some real dmg?

True. I'm not sure on the slower ones, since I mainly rely on skill damage for them. Would be nice to know too though.

After a bit of testing, yes daggers actually have really good DPS when you use the right gear. High crit and damage gear with a dagger is deadly! Tried it in pvp to make sure, it could out-DPS my glyph mace at times even.

But in PvE it works better, especially if you elixir + good group :)

[Zaltiar]

I've used the dagger for bosses lately, and there's always a pause before my skills hit, I'm not sure bout this but I think ur dagger attacks also stops till you've finished doing the skill,

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[Ellyidol]

I've used the dagger for bosses lately, and there's always a pause before my skills hit, I'm not sure bout this but I think ur dagger attacks also stops till you've finished doing the skill,

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Yeah, my impression too. Especially if I do skills like Hell Scream/Beckon, the animation is pretty obvious that it's not attacking.

BUT, it's the auto-attack button on the lower right that confuses me. Even when skill spamming, the attack-bar, indicating how fast your weapon is attacking, still fills up.

So yes, very confused.

[Register]

Im prety sure they dont stop attacking. I think I tried it a while back. I used focus and I think i still shot my bow..i will test it now! Ill go buy a dagger.....lol...Also...I want a weapon with a speed of .2....Pshew! u dotn even see mah dagger!

[Ellyidol]

Im prety sure they dont stop attacking. I think I tried it a while back. I used focus and I think i still shot my bow..i will test it now! Ill go buy a dagger.....lol...Also...I want a weapon with a speed of .2....Pshew! u dotn even see mah dagger!

Lol :)

I tried testing it earlier, couldn't successfully prove anything though. Dagger damages were too quick and just trying to observe the damage numbers were inconclusive of anything.

I'm more concerned about non-damage skills. Like for bears, Hell Scream and Taunt is spammed quite often, so I'm wondering if I should forgo those two skills to maximize DPS.

[CrimsonTider]

My question is have the new daggers changed to where their base damage is high enough to be worth equipping? This has always been the topic of discussion in the past. Because of the low base damage of daggers, skill damage is reduced and the amount of "attacks" needed to equal the actual damage of one attack from a bow/mace/sword/etc has never been worth the time.

Just interested to know since my bear has been in hibernation the past few days. :(

[Ellyidol]

I think so Crim. I never agreed to daggers as well before, other 1H weapons just did way more damage.

Different story, I think, in Nuri's though. The dagger I'm using has 103-106 damage, very consistent and very much higher than the BS daggers (RR dagger was about 60 average damage).

Also, with the alternative 1H weapon being a Mace, huge base damage but low skill damage, with a speed of 1.4, the .4 speed of the dagger can easily hit 3 times more. With constant high crit rate + rage damage, I think the dagger can very well out-DPS 1Hs now.

This is all just towards bosses though, I still plan on using a Mace for PvP. Mob clearing, debatable.

[Driazsomethingiforgot]

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[Ellyidol]

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[CrimsonTider]

Gotcha. What about the difference in skill damage? Is there only a slight drop of?

It will also be interesting to compare once all the sets/set bonuses, as well as the Mt. Fang sets, are known.

[Ellyidol]

Gotcha. What about the difference in skill damage? Is there only a slight drop of?

It will also be interesting to compare once all the sets/set bonuses, as well as the Mt. Fang sets, are known.

While on the same armors and just switching between Glyph Obedience Dagger and Glyph BT Mace, the Mace has 19 top end damage more than the dagger. Not huge, IMO.

I think that's just figures though, counting in armor reduction, etc, I think the difference becomes quite negligible.

[stank]

Soon as i get dagger and wing glyph ill test on dex mage.

[Ellyidol]

Soon as i get dagger and wing glyph ill test on dex mage.

Cheers bud. Would you mind using non-damage skills like your debuffs? I think the mage one would be good since the animation to cast them is also more obvious.

[CrimsonTider]

Looks like the devs have made an effort to make daggers more useful. Kinda stinks cause I liquidated a purple dagger the other day due to the old school way of thinking. LOL

[Suentous PO]

On my bird with stiletto (booyeah!) it seems like both skills and mele damage happen, and not skill overriding mele damage. Based on how fast foes fall. I notice because I'll be concentrating on how to do whatever skills in order for max death, not realizing my auto wasn't on (derp). I realize this was bout bears but I've been thinking on it too.

[Ellyidol]

On my bird with stiletto (booyeah!) it seems like both skills and mele damage happen, and not skill overriding mele damage. Based on how fast foes fall. I notice because I'll be concentrating on how to do whatever skills in order for max death, not realizing my auto wasn't on (derp). I realize this was bout bears but I've been thinking on it too.

All classes are welcome, of course :)

I see. But would you consider that you could have killed faster if you stuck to normal attack only?

[Nina Baby]

Yes ,while auto attacking ,skills do take over the animation ,but the auto attack is still there. Old dagger user ;)

[Swimmingstar]

highest dps with a henchman dagger i got was like 400 or a little less

[Bakoffmycandy]

Yes ,while auto attacking ,skills do take over the animation ,but the auto attack is still there. Old dagger user ;)

Awesome, thanks for clearing that up. I'm in glyph plate & using the glyph dagger. The dps is amazing!

[krazii]

Great topic Bro! I think you keep attacking regardless of your skill use. My understanding was that skill use was always an "additional" attack. Way back when (before BS), I tested using huge delay (slower weapons) that you can actually time attacks on, like big ole hammers. You can really see/time that you keep attacking at regular rate regardless of skill use. You could esepecially see it after the combat re-balance and even on slower 1h weapons. It seems to me that the same applies to daggers even though timing the attacks is nearly impossible. Daggers are my favorite weapon in PL, especially the old duel ones, even the mage scissors, wish they had more. BTW, can you duel spec and use dagger and glyph shield? That would be so cool. How will you get used to not having a ranged attack though with your bow bear, that's gotta make you slow down a bit?

[Coltona]

Elly i have a dex/str bear and started using a custom dagger in sewers once i really looked at dps, and realized it killed faster than my SK bow, but had a lot more armor. It's been one of my favorite weapons, but unless you're at a boss, don't you think a bow or talon is better for range, since you won't always be right next to your enemy?

Also, what setup (armor wise) would you recommend for a str/dex bear to have good armor and regen, without sacrificing a big loss of DPS and damage? I'd be using a dagger obviously.

[Coltona]

Great topic Bro! I think you keep attacking regardless of your skill use. My understanding was that skill use was always an "additional" attack. Way back when (before BS), I tested using huge delay (slower weapons) that you can actually time attacks on, like big ole hammers. You can really see/time that you keep attacking at regular rate regardless of skill use. You could esepecially see it after the combat re-balance and even on slower 1h weapons. It seems to me that the same applies to daggers even though timing the attacks is nearly impossible. Daggers are my favorite weapon in PL, especially the old duel ones, even the mage scissors, wish they had more. BTW, can you duel spec and use dagger and glyph shield? That would be so cool. How will you get used to not having a ranged attack though with your bow bear, that's gotta make you slow down a bit?


That last sentence is my question also.

I think like talon or bow for mobs, and dagger for bosses maybe?

[Moogerfooger]

Daggers may have high DPS compared to bows, but the base damage (and I think skill damage) is still inferior against high armor opponents until someone can prove otherwise. Higher DPS does not automatically mean better killing because DPS is against air.

The new Autobows have a speed of 0.8 and the daggers have 0.4? Well then you have twice as many dagger attacks, sure...but the base damage is WAY less than half of the Autobow, and I guarantee the Autobow has more skill damage. Logic then says unless there is some other weird factor at play, new Autobow >>>>> new Dagger for killing bosses. One could say that the range advantage of the Autobow is canceled out roughly by the armor advantage of the wing shield.

Of course, there may of course be some new tricky mechanics at play here that is a game changer :)

[Zaltiar]

Tested, and it continues to attack when using skill moves :)

[Ellyidol]

Thanks for the inputs guys, it seems to be that daggers do still attack.

For my armor setup, I used to do Contortionist Armors with a Glyph Obedience Dagger. Highest crit/damage, but really low armor and dodge. Now, I switched to Contortionist helm and the rest glyph obedience.

Yeah, Moog is right, I never supported daggers before too. I don't know really, I tested it in PvP for a bit recently, and my dagger could very easily out-DPS my mace. I think it comes from the fact that the dagger damage has almost doubled, the mace speed is 1.4, and the constantly higher crits of the dagger eventually push it to do more damage.

It's more amplified in PvE if you elixir up. Since damage dealt = damage - enemy armor, once you get past your enemy armour through elixirs, all that additional damage becomes pure damage from a dagger speed.

I have yet to test the new bow set, but since I need to be 'close' to use my slashes and stuff anyway, I don't really mind using a dagger in boss fights.

For non-elixired PvE runs, I think the bow may do better. Just a guess.

[CrimsonTider]

Daggers may have high DPS compared to bows, but the base damage (and I think skill damage) is still inferior against high armor opponents until someone can prove otherwise. Higher DPS does not automatically mean better killing because DPS is against air.

The new Autobows have a speed of 0.8 and the daggers have 0.4? Well then you have twice as many dagger attacks, sure...but the base damage is WAY less than half of the Autobow, and I guarantee the Autobow has more skill damage. Logic then says unless there is some other weird factor at play, new Autobow >>>>> new Dagger for killing bosses. One could say that the range advantage of the Autobow is canceled out roughly by the armor advantage of the wing shield.

Of course, there may of course be some new tricky mechanics at play here that is a game changer :)

This.

If someone can show the effectiveness of the dagger vs high armor enemies, the lack of base/skill damage has always been it's downfall. Now.... if testing proves the new daggers are much improved, then Crim will be a strong advocate. Till then, I will keep to my normal setups.

Side note: Gratz Moog on 61!

[Wilddar]

Wow I learned a lot from this thread, maybe I'll start using a dagger. :)

[Ellyidol]

This actually brings up an elixir question.

Do damage elixirs multiply the damage that is dealt or damage that could be dealt?

To be more specific, does a 4x damage elixir multiply your non-elixir damage by 4x or does it simply make your base damage, weapon damage, and skill damage 4x more?

Eg, a 100 damage to boss becomes 400 or a 300 damage stat become 1200?

If it's the first option, I would say a mace still outperforms the dagger, mainly because if a mace does better damage than a dagger without an elixir, 4x of that would still make the mace do more damage.

However, if it's the second option, I could say that the dagger might be better than the mace in doing damage, especially on bosses. If a damage elixir actually multiplies damage before inflicting it, any amount that the elixir brings to damage that goes beyond the armor threshold will become pure damage, and weapon speed will become a more important factor.

I think. Hope it makes sense.

[Nourish]

I think the 4x combo only gives 3x damage, heh :)

[Ellyidol]

I think the 4x combo only gives 3x damage, heh :)

Oops, right!

3x then, same question :p

[Moogerfooger]

I am also a moron and forgot that the new Glyph Dagger does have much improved base damage....still less than the Autobow by a good chunk, but much closer. I have the Dagger as well (no shield yet) but I will check the skill damages once I get one. I am betting the Autobow far outclasses the Dagger in skill damage....by a large margin. For bears, this may not matter AS much...but for birds it would.

[krazii]

I've always maintained that using daggers on a boss is the fastest way to kill it. I used to use daggers for OL in VL and it always seemed to take him down faster. I would be interested to hear how an all dagger team does against a boss. I'll bet 100k plat it's the fastest takedown there is.

[Ellyidol]

I've always maintained that using daggers on a boss is the fastest way to kill it. I used to use daggers for OL in VL and it always seemed to take him down faster. I would be interested to hear how an all dagger team does against a boss. I'll bet 100k plat it's the fastest takedown there is.

5x birds on 3x damage elixirs all using an Obedience Dagger set. I'd give a boss less than 5 seconds.

Btw, dagger set is awesome. I'm not sure why the prices have been dropping quite rapidly.

[Zaltiar]

Maybe its because most people think only glyph x-bow has a set bonus? Or it's just generally easier to loot. I've only seen 3 ob glyph xbows in the cs since the new maps came out.
I'm hoping they come out with a talon set soon.. :)
Oh and can someone clarify ellys post bout the elixers? Does it boost base stats or the overall stats from equipped items



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[Ellyidol]

My hunch is people underrate the new dagger set with the past experience they had, their loss :p

Map 4 is as long to farm as map 5, IMO. Just less reason to do map 5 because of no XP and the loot.

I'm starting to think it's triple the damage before the attack. If it works the same way as armour, I don't think the damage is reduced by a factor of 3, but armor is multiplied by 3. No wonder why daggers are so deadly when damage elixired. Guessing only :)

[Zaltiar]

I'm assuming prices will go up after people read this post, hohoho.

Ah thanks for that, what I meant to ask was (sry still kinda noob at pl lol)
When using elixirs, does it boost base stats (no equips on) then add on the extra stats from armor etc, or does it boost total stats (all equips on x boost amount). Still a lil confused bout that.
- If its the first way where it boosts only the base stats,
if base dmg is lets say 2, you use a 3x dmg boost elixir and your additional dmg boost from equips is 2 (just to make things simple), tour total damage is only 8
- The second way where it boosts total stats together with equips, total dmg is 12.
I think in general, mmorpg's which use elixirs do it the 1st method.
Just asking because if its the same thing with a armor boost elixir, if I use my bird, and my armor is crud, I would use my equips for boosting my armor. If its the first method, purchasing a 3x armor would not really be worth it. I'd rather be well off buying dmg boost elixir and killing everything before they even get to touch me haha
Sorry if this post is a little confusing lol :/

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