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krazii
09-05-2011, 02:18 PM
First of all, thank you very much to all of you for all the information in your posts. It has been very helpful in refining my engineer build, in particular thanks to kamakazee and noneno. I found it rather interesting to see all the recent opinions about armor and it’s benefit (or lack thereof) and subsequent opinions on protection and force shield. I was quite shocked and thought I was missing something. I’ve played tanks (and healers) a long time and have come to value armor very much, so I paid very careful attention to all that has been written. I will not rehash all that has been posted, there’s plenty of threads on that, but the basic premise as I understand it is that armor isn’t that important in SL as other things and as such engineer’s do not need to invest their skill points in protection or force shield.

I could not disagree more!

I believe that this perception comes from two misconceptions. First, there is a general perception that because armor doesn’t work like armor in PL, it isn’t that important. Just because armor isn’t a 1:1 reduction doesn’t mean it’s not important. The game mechanics and class abilities vary in each game (For instance, mages in PL have very powerful damage skills, not so in SL). Also, in SL the classes are much more dependent on each other and are more defined. The second misconception is that because armor only helps you a little bit per hit, it really isn’t important. I think this completely misses one of the most common scenarios in SL:> a bunch of mobs beating on your party (in particular the lead commando) at one time at which point you need everything in your playbook to survive.

So, in my humble opinion, these two misconceptions are actually the exact reasons you need to use your armor increasing skills (Protection in particular). We all know that as you go through any level in SL, there are slow parts with a few mobs and busy parts with lots of mobs. It’s those busy parts (and the bosses) where armor proves it’s worth. When a commando (or any party member) has 5 or more mobs beating on him, which happens all the time, all that extra armor saves his or her life. Why do you think the good commando’s cast their armor protection skill right before they enter combat and recast continually during combat.. Think of all the damage reduction when the various armor buffs are combined, it adds up quickly and is the difference between life and death. I can tell you from experience that I know exactly when protection (armor skill buff) has expired on members of my party and it’s not from seeing the icon disappear(which occasionally I miss), but from having to heal more and that’s what it boils down to, what actually happens during gameplay.

This post is not based solely on testing, but more so on actual game play situations. I did confirm Kamakazee’s armor test results (thanks again) and came to the same conclusions regarding how armor works. Armor reduces damage a little bit for small mobs and a lot for larger mobs (bosses). I understand and appreciate all the numbers and testing, I even find them interesting as I’m a engineer in RL. That said, for me it comes down to how armor performs in actual game play and I can tell you armor has proven it’s worth to me. I ran tests in actual game play situations where I purposely did not armor buff my party and had them not use their armor buff skills or implants. The results were noticeable. When the party didn’t use buffs, I had to heal more and more mana was consumed (and I’m very judicious about mana consumption). When armor protections were up, less healing, less mana consumption. Also, a very important benefit was there were less near death experiences when buffs are working which tends to calm those commandos nerves who get excited when their health hits the halfway point.

For these reasons, I recommend maxing Protection and putting at least one point in Force Shield mainly for mana regen. Force shield hasn’t shown its effectiveness as a damage reducer because it expires at a relatively low damage threshold.

Good luck in making your choice.

PS: I recall reading somewhere about an engineer who “controls” the battlefield with his stuns by running ahead of the pack, etc. If I ever see an engineer run ahead of the commando in any game, he/she is warned, thence booted if a repeat offender. E engineers need to stay behind their protection.
PPSS: Some already know this but there is a one minute 1 m/s, 1 dmg buff hidden in the revive skill at level one. Don’t know if it’s higher at higher skill levels or not.
PPPSSS: This also applies to Commandos and their armor buff, put as many points as you can in it!!!!!!

Numb
09-05-2011, 04:09 PM
Hmm news to me about armor effecting differently depending on the mob. Boss or trash.. Are these the only two classes of mob? I read quickly maybe you answered.

krazii
09-05-2011, 04:19 PM
The amount of damage "reduced" depends on the size of the attack, so little mobs (first dogs in Outpost) which hit for avg of 26 w/o protection will hit for avg of 23 with protection (protection -3 damage if you will). The next dog hit for -5 w/ protection, Vulgars -10 w/ protection or more (haven't tested enough), etc. Guardian not tested yet.

Cahaun
09-05-2011, 05:45 PM
As an engineer veteran I can say it is true. I did a gaurdian run with my engie along with 4 ops >.<

Acezero
09-05-2011, 06:42 PM
Well of course even in theory where 50 armor reduce 1 damage. 450 armor reduces. 9 damage. Now. 5x9 assuming there is 5 enemies =45 effective hp per second. In 5 seconds that 45 effective hp became 225 effective hp. Which is about a operatives hp. Now thats just commando. Armor for ops is just less important because with greens you jump from like 198 to 238 armor. Now you can take a implant and giml your damage instead of a damage implant. Whats more important. A op who has 1 more effective hp per second or a op who has 10 more effective damage per second? Because in 10 seconds that damage became 100 and that hp became 10. Whats more needed in that team?

Raulur
09-06-2011, 12:29 AM
Depends on the class and the playstyle. Ops probably should shy away from armor implants, but I know by feel that it's worth it for engineers. It all depends on the map in my personal opinion.

I agree that you can tell when protection is off on tough maps. Health bars fluxuate more. On Outer Limits, not so much. It has been noticed that the burrowers look slightly different on Outer Limits than from Uncharted Ruins.

I'm guessing there are two versions of "trash" mobs per campaign. I have noticed the human mobs in the Cycorp campaign pack more punch on later maps, and seem to look different as well. It was well noted even back in beta that the early maps on each campaign were much easier than late maps.

So I guess what I'm saying is that the math feels incomplete. I wouldn't go about frantically selling armor implants just yet. There is too much we do not know as of right now.

Hullukko
09-06-2011, 05:44 AM
The amount of damage "reduced" depends on the size of the attack, so little mobs (first dogs in Outpost) which hit for avg of 26 w/o protection will hit for avg of 23 with protection (protection -3 damage if you will). The next dog hit for -5 w/ protection, Vulgars -10 w/ protection or more (haven't tested enough), etc. Guardian not tested yet.

No no no, it doesn't work like that. It's roughly the -3 per hit that landed and that's it.

If it's a big pack of tiny critters then sure it helps, but against those bigger buggers that land their massive blows only every now and then, then not so much so.

Now, I'm not saying this or that about skill point distribution, only correcting a statement that gives an impression that protection would be ever more helpful against "Vulgars" (with which I'm assuming you refer to them big black bug in ruins) when actually the opposite is true.

WhoIsThis
09-06-2011, 06:24 AM
Armor is useful for lots of critters as they have many hits, but softer hits per blow. Against bosses and minis; far less effective. Shield is much more useful in that circumstance.

Edit: Re-reading this post, you CANNOT be conservative of mana consumption. Everyone in the party needs to unload as much damage as quickly as possible, regardless of the price of stim packs (which I do realize are not cheap) . The longer a target is alive, the more damage a party sustains.

Finally, truly outstanding engineers are capable of leading their parties effectively and in some cases are forced to.

IBNobody
09-06-2011, 06:39 AM
The amount of damage "reduced" depends on the size of the attack, so little mobs (first dogs in Outpost) which hit for avg of 26 w/o protection will hit for avg of 23 with protection (protection -3 damage if you will). The next dog hit for -5 w/ protection, Vulgars -10 w/ protection or more (haven't tested enough), etc. Guardian not tested yet.

Kamakazees updated his findings last week to reflect this.

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?34773-How-much-Armor-actually-protects-a-Numa-Prime-Study!

kamikazees
09-06-2011, 11:46 AM
I have edited my armor study with even more data. I've now tested the first Vular in Numa Prime - Uncharted Ruins. You are welcome to re-read the study again, but my finding was that this enemy does 86.5 average damage, and it takes 18 armor to reduce that damage by 1. That means Protection reduces his damage by 3 points, or a little more than 3%. And that is only if you max it out with 6 points. To me that's just not enough.


When a commando (or any party member) has 5 or more mobs beating on him, which happens all the time, all that extra armor saves his or her life.
Commandos can have 760 armor with Protection and their Increase Mass buff. That translates to a 42 damage reduction against a Vular (almost 50%), which is well worth it. Unfortunately, no other character can come close to that.


Armor reduces damage a little bit for small mobs and a lot for larger mobs (bosses).
Larger mobs are more affected by armor, but I'm not sure the difference of 1 vs. 3 points for Protection counts as "a lot." My theory is that Guardian's damage is probably decreased by 1 point for 10 armor, but that's still just 6 damage with Protection. He hits somewhere in the 150 range.


For these reasons, I recommend maxing Protection...
I respect your opinion and am glad someone is on the other side of the fence. Debate is good!


PS: I recall reading somewhere about an engineer who “controls” the battlefield with his stuns by running ahead of the pack, etc. If I ever see an engineer run ahead of the commando in any game, he/she is warned, thence booted if a repeat offender. E engineers need to stay behind their protection.
That is me again. Check out my UBER Engineer build. Before you boot me, though, please let me show you how it works. My IGN is Gadget. I think you may be surprised.

Kindread
09-06-2011, 02:33 PM
All I have to say is, after many a year of playing PL as an attack class and going to 25 as an operative, and now playing an engineer solely spec'ed to heal and protect the group, I have to admit, I'm having more fun playing the healing class and keeping people alive. There's a special satisfaction in knowing that my lil ole character is vital to the success of the group. That's a dynamic that wasn't there in PL. You could pretty much do without a mage in PL. In SL, you can do without an engineer but it's much tougher.

krazii
09-06-2011, 04:02 PM
That is me again. Check out my UBER Engineer build. Before you boot me, though, please let me show you how it works. My IGN is Gadget. I think you may be surprised.

Be happy to play with you and I also love the debate, thanks for being classy about it. Hope I wasn't offensive in my statements. I'll add you and we will have a blast (if you can keep up :P~ haha, j/k).