Heals and agro

[dwergs]

Is it that our heals pull an insane amount of agro or is it because commandos aren't aggressive enough. Most just hang back instead of leading and rushing in. I'm not trying to bash commandos just curious if they aren't using their taunts to the fullest. Also most engineers never revive unless you ask. What's everybody's opinions.

[Epic Unicorns!]

I agree, they seem to stay behind the group...I always spam healing skills, and end up being killed. Then they want a rez when I am dead. -_- But I think the think about engis not using Revive is that it is barely noticeable when someone dies, I always have to be called.

[Raulur]

There seems to be an auto taunt that depends on the strength of your heal skills whether you use them or not. With max empathy and transferrence, I pull mad aggro without even doing anything.

Yes, there are players not doing what they should be, but they are learning. Hopefully they will see what a good player does and try to imitate. We are all human, and we all make mistakes.

As far as revives, I notice most players respawn before I can get to them. Just remember that they are trying to stay alive too. Ask politely and be patient.

[noneo]

whether you use them or not ... I pull mad aggro without even doing anything...

I don't see how one could just stand there, not shoot off anything (while other players are attacking mobs) and you for some reason get all of the aggro.

Now, I agree that Engies are aggro machines and the CASTING of Empathy/Transference/Any skill seems to grip the aggro of mobs surrounding you, but to just stand there and get aggro makes no sense. You must be just closer to the mobs than anyone else, and they get to you first.

But, now back to the point.


Is it that our heals pull an insane amount of agro.

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Our healing skills seem to grab more aggro than our (or other classes') damage skills. I think this was done on purpose to make the game more challenging, as it causes the other classes to jump in and try to get the aggro back; in turn saving the healer of the group.

I even did a test on Guardian. I waited untill the whole group was in the boss room hitting the Guardian, then I came in (further away than anyone else), and began to cast Empathy, Transference, and Pain. Then, before you know it the Guardian was locked on to me, and I had to play Healer to the team and frantic pot chugger to myself. Engies make the bosses angry I suppose.

[shannong]

I even did a test on Guardian. I waited untill the whole group was in the boss room hitting the Guardian, then I came in (further away than anyone else), and began to cast Empathy, Transference, and Pain. Then, before you know it the Guardian was locked on to me, and I had to play Healer to the team and frantic pot chugger to myself. Engies make the bosses angry I suppose.

I've done a ton of guardian runs as an engy, and I have a slightly different take on this observation (and testing). Did you do this test in a group that had pulled Guardian all the way back to the cliff, where he cannot actually push people away with his frontal cone AOE attack? Or was the group fighting Guardian in the middle where he spawns, so that his AOE cone could actually push away the person he's attacking?

The answer makes a big difference. I asked about guardian tanking techniques in the commando forums and got an answer that surprised me at the time. In short, Guardian's aggro is reset under two conditions, and I've verified this through direct observation over about a dozen runs now:

A) If any commando uses a taunt skill, he will turn towards that commando. I've done this myself a bunch on my commando. Tested it. Waited until I was sure no other commo was about to cast a taunt because what they used was on cooldown. I cast my taunt, and he turns to me, instantly, even if he'd been aggroing the "primary" tank the entire time before that. Neutron Stomp and/or Force Hammer work great for this because they're insta-cast. And you only need a single point in each. He *will* turn to you unless some other commo in the group has taunted him at the same time. It doesn't matter how fast the operators are spamming him with crits, nor how much the engies are spamming heals. Taunt=he faces you and starts hitting you.

B) If the group is fighting him in the center and he successfully pushes back his primary target, his aggro table resets and he immediately goes after the next person on his hate list. It's like the tank he just pushed back disappeared from his perception entirely, not unlike how you lose target lock when you use nearly any "long push" skill such as Singularity. THIS is when the engies and operators start getting hit directly. THIS is when another tank better be standing up near guardian and have a taunt ready to pop immediately, or one of your squishies might be going down soon.

So what I have proven time and again, because the guild groups I run with typically know to let the tank pop vigor and increased mass and go drag guardian to the cliff before everyone else rushes in: If you get Guardian back near the cliff, and *everyone* fights with their back to the cliff so that he cannot pushback ANY of you, then I can spam Tranferrence, Empathy, and Pain all day long and he'll never even blink at me. Never. Not once. Especially if the tank(s) in your group are regularly using their taunt skills too. And I'm talking when I have 6 points in each of those three skills. Constant spam immediately on CD and Guardian never hits me.

ALWAYS drag Guardian to the cliff and fight with your back to the cliff. To do anything else is to invite your primary tank getting pushed back, and then Guardian deciding to one-hit an engy or operative.

Further, there is a range that you can operate at that is outside the "splash zone" of his frontal AOE. If you're too close, you get more "splash". If you maneuver so that you're near the far range for your Empathy to hit everyone in front of you, while still staying in auto-fire range for your rifle, you'll take very little damage if any at all.

[Teddyache]

Also most engineers never revive unless you ask. What's everybody's opinions.

I've been this engineer that people ask for revive but it is only because I can't see where they died or because they've run so far away from the group that I can't get to them quickly, or possibly when revive is on cool down. To echo another comment, if you are not being revived right away, it can be helpful to say something so I can see where the talk bubble is, but please be polite and patient and I won't take it personally. If I die trying to get to you, that does no one any good...

Shannong - nice analysis of the guardian aggro. I've been on a few runs lately where people don't go to the back. In one, we had an awesome tank that held aggro the whole time and it was fine being off on the right instead of the back. In another, we didn't have a good tank and there were a few deaths despite two engineers in the group! Go to the back people! I even told the group to do that and they ignored the advice... Oh well.

[Rob Prose]

I have also seen commandos that like to stand in the back and make the engines tank. My fix and one that has helped me in other games is just a quick message like "pro tip: read the forums to learn how to play. It really helps." or if a commando has premimum gear and is trying to say they are dps or something I just say "there's a reason all your skills say taunt man". have i gotten some butt hurt boons to flip claiming that they are a million times better than me and I need to stfu cuz I don't know what I'm talking about? You bet yer bottom dollar. But directing noobies who actually want to play better to the forums will make them better players and encourage them to encourage others to use the forums.

[Raulur]

As far as the Guardian, I've only seen a handfull of commandos than reliably take aggro away from me. The rest of them seem to not be able to grab aggro until I die. After that, he usually will not bother me the rest of the fight. Don't know why this is... Could it be the weapon they use?

On the subject of getting aggro while doing nothing at all... Go load up the last cycorp map. Have a commando run ahead and get the bugs stirred up, then run back beside the engineer. Any of the bugs that have not been attacked by the commando will instantly turn to the engineer, regardless of using heals or not. I can be standing there not doing a single thing, and it always happens. Especially after the second ladder, that is the worst spot for this.

A good commando can remedy this by using the aoe skills easy enough, but there are a lot that refuse. At the same time, I have seen a lot of engineers that will not use any healing skill until they take damage. That one baffles me. Maybe this is why most comms do not taunt? I know when I'm on my comm with a bad engineer I will lay off until they start healing, otherwise I will burn through my stims in no time at all.

[GigaBits]

If I were a vular or any other enemy in this game...and I am sure it has been designed this way on purpose, I would always take out the healer first. From a programming standpoint it iis easy to do. Setting your if/or conditions to prioritize targets. Who hit me for most damage...who keeps that guy alive...wait, what was that...is he taunting me? I'll show him. Wait, that stupid healer, again. I'll show him. And so on...

[frostine]

I play both engineer and commando.

In the role of commando, if the healer doesn't stay within healing range to me I hang back and use my skills to taunt mobs from a distance. You may find that commandos stick close to you and at same distance from mobs because the healing range is short and taunting skills are ranged. The role of commando is not like that of a traditional tank in other games. There are no melee weapons and mob control can be done from a distance. Don't expect the commando to rush far off into the sunset tanking half the map in one go with you merrily trailing behind casting heals from a distance like that of classic style game play. Your healing range is short and may not reach them. Stay close and cast heals to show the hesitant commando you are ready. Commandos who taunt from a distance pulling mobs toward them by using the gravity well skill is a way to pull a reasonable amount of mobs in an area into a nice and neat little pile without running too far on the map, getting swarmed, and making it impossible for the party to stay alive. If the healer still doesn't do anything I find a new group because I don't want to waste stims on people who don't understand what is going on. In early levels I understand people are new and learning, but after a certain point in the game like level 20 something it's time to move on.

Conversely, when I am on my engineer I try to stay as close as possible to the commando since he or she should be trying to attract the mobs attention first and will need heals stat. Also, since I will gain the mobs attention first before anyone acts, by default, it's easier for the commando to pull them off me since we are close. If the commando is doing their job by using their taunting skills to control the mob, everyone including operatives should be able to stay close as a group and successfully get healed. However some commandos only use their singularity skill at best which just scatters the mobs (the taunt wheres off quickly when other classes start using skills) and operatives are left to constantly run, kite and get bounced around the room. I hardly run into groups where the commando uses their beckon skill, gravity well, to draw mobs in and take control. Some of the popular spec builds on this board neglect this skill altogether and it is a rather powerful skill for good crowd control and quick mob crushing as a group. It's like a the bear everyone loved in PL that only used stomp and didn't actually control mobs. Even worse, some commandos don't do anything except shoot their weapon and just use self heals and energy regen skills, which does absolutely zero in terms of gaining mobs attention for group game play. The healers and ops suffer due to the commandos lack of skill use. In short, if the commando isn't using any taunting skills, don't do anything other than heal. Transference, leech, etc all will place the mobs on you and, you will waste many stims, and possibly die along with the rest of the party. Only cast heals or move on and find another group that knows what they are doing so you can use your engineer skills to the fullest.