PVP Updates: We're going live! PART 3

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

Hello again Arlorians!

Again we'd like to thank players for their feedback and discussions on the previous PvP posts. After much deliberation, Design team has decided on the first change that will be going live:

1) The "Spinning Freedom" upgrade of Razor Shield will now also apply on un-charged Razor Shield. The description will also be updated to reflect that Spinning Freedom grants immunity to stuns and freezes.
2) The Charged version of Razor Shield will now last an additional 3 seconds, which will stack with the "Increased Duration" upgrade.


Why this change?
We are carefully making this change as a first, small adjustment. This change is meant to help increase the survivability of Rogues while having minimum impact on the overall game. We're intentionally moving forward with small improvements and then monitoring their effectiveness before taking more action.

Please note that Spinning Freedom already grants immunity to stuns and freezes, it just wasn't listed on the ability upgrade description so we're adding it for clarity.

This change will be coming to an Arcane Legends near you this week!

Can't Touch This (While Razor Shield is active)
-STSVroom

[Otahaanak]

Glad to see only 1 change at a time.



IGN: Cryformana, Drizzitty

[soon]

ok, but rogue use it? I know nekro is standard, no one will want to miss an attack skill to use this skill. So the complaints of 10% damage reduction this skill in exchange for armor loss.

[intrepd]

Hello again Arlorians!

Again we'd like to thank players for their feedback and discussions on the previous PvP posts. After much deliberation, Design team has decided on the first change that will be going live:

1) The "Spinning Freedom" upgrade of Razor Shield will now also apply on un-charged Razor Shield. The description will also be updated to reflect that Spinning Freedom grants immunity to stuns and freezes.


Why this change?
We are carefully making this change as a first, small adjustment. This change is meant to help increase the survivability of Rogues while having minimum impact on the overall game. We're intentionally moving forward with small improvements and then monitoring their effectiveness before taking more action.

Please note that Spinning Freedom already grants immunity to stuns and freezes, it just wasn't listed on the ability upgrade description so we're adding it for clarity.

This change will be coming to an Arcane Legends near you this week!

Can't Touch This (While Razor Shield is active)
-STSVroom
Sorry not trying to be rude but is this suppose to be a change? Most pvpers know that this upgrade ignores stun i believe

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

Sorry not trying to be rude but is this suppose to be a change? Most pvpers know that this upgrade ignores stun i believe

For those who already know the effect, the change is that it will apply to uncharged Razor Shield, not just Charged like it does currently.

[soon]

For those who already know the effect, the change is that it will apply to uncharged Razor Shield, not just Charged like it does currently.


This is more useful in pve, as I said before rogues use nekro.

[soon]

shadow piercer, noxus bolt, aimed shot and combat medic. These are the default skill to rogue should change these. Maybe changes in masteries to do better for pvp.


Good old days of rogue


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2bsAiPiRxQ

[Plqgue]

Glad to see yal are taking it slow :)

[intrepd]

For those who already know the effect, the change is that it will apply to uncharged Razor Shield, not just Charged like it does currently.

Ty vroom this will help but we usually have time to charge razors, not trying to sound rude but will there be another changes?

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

Ty vroom this will help but we usually have time to charge razors, not trying to sound rude but will there be another changes?

This is it for now, but after this is released we'll continue to monitor and get feedback and then make any additional adjustments as needed.

[keith78]

Vroom. Hope next update. We can have upgrade on pierce or the masteries of aim and pierce? Thanks :D

Sent from my 8050E using Tapatalk

[yubaraj]

Tbh rogues will never appreciate if they are not given 300% . They are already one shooting Mage now they want to one shot warrior too. Or they want mages shield which is absurd. They are not realizing how unbalanced game will be for others.

Anyways back to the topic. This update will surely save their 2-3 seconds which will ensure not getting stunned by lava pool or mage's fire skill. Also note that Mage has to charge their fire to stun so certainly it will give edge to rogues on clash and also doin vs with warrior.

I am pretty sure it will certainly give some survivability to rogues.

[Safiras]

So what's the difference now between charged and uncharged razor shield? What do we gain from charging the skill?

[Breakingbadxx]

Trying very hard to understand how this increases rogue survivability in any way.

[resurrected]

Trying very hard to understand how this increases rogue survivability in any way.
Right word here is: nothing

[Valkiryas]

Tbh rogues will never appreciate if they are not given 300% . They are already one shooting Mage now they want to one shot warrior too. Or they want mages shield which is absurd. They are not realizing how unbalanced game will be for others.

Anyways back to the topic. This update will surely save their 2-3 seconds which will ensure not getting stunned by lava pool or mage's fire skill. Also note that Mage has to charge their fire to stun so certainly it will give edge to rogues on clash and also doin vs with warrior.

I am pretty sure it will certainly give some survivability to rogues.

This update it's not what we were looking for, doesn't add any survivality in PvP, any skilled rogue knows that always should first charge razor and then aimed, is senseless to use this skill uncharge in the middle of the battle in PvP or PvE, no one single rogue will feels the diference.

[Bira]

Thank you for this. Can you tell us if this will also work in pve? I use razor in elites in between nekro shields and it's very helpful for survival. I think it will help those pvp rogues who are having a hard time.

[intrepd]

Thank you for this. Can you tell us if this will also work in pve? I use razor in elites in between nekro shields and it's very helpful for survival. I think it will help those pvp rogues who are having a hard time.

I don't think it will actually make a difference because rogues don't have a problem with charging the skill, they will still die even with charged or uncharged razor, it just doesn't increase any survivability since it's the same skill as before without any buff.

[Ireliaa]

thats not even tickles if you ask me

so we will give up on nox to use this because its supposedly "buffed"?

why aren't you try your very first suggestions vroom im sure you had your reasons to come up with them

i see mage sabotages worked

[Plqgue]

thats not even tickles if you ask me

so we will give up on nox to use this because its supposedly "buffed"?

why aren't you try your very first suggestions vroom im sure you had your reasons to come up with them

i see mage sabotages worked

Us giving our opinions isn't sabotage and honestly how is nerfing mages and tanks gonna help achieve balance?

[DAmage126]

thats not even tickles if you ask me

so we will give up on nox to use this because its supposedly "buffed"?

why aren't you try your very first suggestions vroom im sure you had your reasons to come up with them

i see mage sabotages worked

Literally all I see you say is mages this, mage that. Do you really think mages sabotaged pvp changes? you gotta be joking lmao first off the developers wouldn't just add a change based off of one class. Second even if it was, this change was not even reflected by opinions of mages it was a choice made by the developers as stated by vroom and not based on player feedback.

[Ticklish]

Although I may not have pvp'd in ages, I understand the frustration because razor shield is an optional and mostly defensive pvp skill, which leaves rogues with aimed and pierce as means of attack. However, pierce cannot be used in many situations because it leaves us too vulnerable. Which means rogues need to almost rely solely on aimed shots to do damage, which is quite odd if we are meant to be glass cannons. In the end, rogues are still very much glass, and even less of a cannon if we use this.

From a pve standpoint, however, I like this update to the razor shield. It will allow me to deal extra damage during the time saved not charging RS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fredystern]

thats not even tickles if you ask me

so we will give up on nox to use this because its supposedly "buffed"?

why aren't you try your very first suggestions vroom im sure you had your reasons to come up with them

i see mage sabotages worked

Mage this mage that, what you mean is nerf mage, am i right? You guys wanted to survive longer than sts buff razor so rogue no need to charge it anymore to avoid stun. Can you think sts make this change based on rogue request?

[Fredystern]

Although I may not have pvp'd in ages, I understand the frustration because razor shield is an optional and mostly defensive pvp skill, which leaves rogues with aimed and pierce as means of attack. However, pierce cannot be used in many situations because it leaves us too vulnerable. Which means rogues need to almost rely solely on aimed shots to do damage, which is quite odd if we are meant to be glass cannons. In the end, rogues are still very much glass, and even less of a cannon if we use this.

From a pve standpoint, however, I like this update to the razor shield. It will allow me to deal extra damage during the time saved not charging RS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Use nox instead of pierce .-.

[intrepd]

Mage this mage that, what you mean is nerf mage, am i right? You guys wanted to survive longer than sts buff razor so rogue no need to charge it anymore to avoid stun. Can you think sts make this change based on rogue request?

Sorry if I answered instead of him but the issue is not charging razors, we have enough time to charge razors but we won't survive even with it, once 3 mages rushes you its too deadly at least the damage is, I don't want classes to get nerfed due to thid either but a better solution would help, I don't see this buff even helping but thanks sts might need to test it out with rogues first.

[Fredystern]

Sorry if I answered instead of him but the issue is not charging razors, we have enough time to charge razors but we won't survive even with it, once 3 mages rushes you its too deadly at least the damage is, I don't want classes to get nerfed due to thid either but a better solution would help, I don't see this buff even helping but thanks sts might need to test it out with rogues first.
Easy, run to the mage shot some aim and run to warr.

Thats what i do when use rogue and chased by mages

Sent from my Lenovo P70-A using Tapatalk

[yubaraj]

I will point out 2 advantage I have seen with this buff:
2-3 seconds saved and still ensures stun immunity . which further make sure that till another nekro as u guys won't be stunned.

You can deal another combo in that duration and that's a lot of damage .

I know rogues always want to be OP that's why rogues never seem to happy unless they can one shot warrior too.

[Zeus]

I will point out 2 advantage I have seen with this buff:
2-3 seconds saved and still ensures stun immunity . which further make sure that till another nekro as u guys won't be stunned.

You can deal another combo in that duration and that's a lot of damage .

I know rogues always want to be OP that's why rogues never seem to happy unless they can one shot warrior too.

Lol, the thing is this really does nothing to help rogues. Razor shield previously was charged ahead of time when the mage rush was coming. So all this does is help out the rogues that couldn't pre-plan in the first place.

Why do we get such nonsensical buffs but when it came time to buff sorcerer and warrior, y'all gave them every bit of survivability in the book? We rogues didn't even argue when they were given such huge buffs.

Nevertheless, at least this is better than the nox upgrade and it is a step in the right direction. However, there really needs to be some damage reduction attached. Even 25% damage reduction would be awesome to survive and make rogues have a place in clash. The reason being is that we have to drop nox just to use this skill. That means that there needs to be some advantage to it because we are killing things slower.

I don't mind giving up noxious for razor, but there needs to be damage reduction greater than 10% attached. Even 25% is plenty alongside this new addition. Using razor makes us kill things slower so we need to use it and survive long enough to make up for the missing damage of aimed shot.

[intrepd]

Easy, run to the mage shot some aim and run to warr.

Thats what i do when use rogue and chased by mages

Sent from my Lenovo P70-A using Tapatalk

3 mages rushing you, I'd be stupid if I was a rogue who rushes them instead of running back at first place, run to the warrior who heals 10% if not 0% with korruptipn yes ofc ill survive, first rogues survivability is the worst and they used to rely on Horn too much that korruption completely removes, while packs a bit useless in this clash scenario, no smart rogue is going to rush 3 mages then run back because she would be dead by then.

[intrepd]

Lol, the thing is this really does nothing to help rogues. Razor shield previously was charged ahead of time when the mage rush was coming. So all this does is help out the rogues that couldn't pre-plan in the first place.

Why do we get such nonsensical buffs but when it came time to buff sorcerer and warrior, y'all gave them every bit of survivability in the book? We rogues didn't even argue when they were given such huge buffs.

Nevertheless, at least this is better than the nox upgrade and it is a step in the right direction. However, there really needs to be some damage reduction attached. Even 25% damage reduction would be awesome to survive and make rogues have a place in clash. The reason being is that we have to drop nox just to use this skill. That means that there needs to be some advantage to it because we are killing things slower.

I don't mind giving up noxious for razor, but there needs to be damage reduction greater than 10% attached. Even 25% is plenty alongside this new addition. Using razor makes us kill things slower so we need to use it and survive long enough to make up for the missing damage of aimed shot.

Warriors have 40-60% damage reduction? Mages has 50 I believe if not 55, rogues has 10? At least 25-20% reduction in razor will be fine.

[Ireliaa]

Lol, the thing is this really does nothing to help rogues. Razor shield previously was charged ahead of time when the mage rush was coming. So all this does is help out the rogues that couldn't pre-plan in the first place.

Why do we get such nonsensical buffs but when it came time to buff sorcerer and warrior, y'all gave them every bit of survivability in the book? We rogues didn't even argue when they were given such huge buffs.

Nevertheless, at least this is better than the nox upgrade and it is a step in the right direction. However, there really needs to be some damage reduction attached. Even 25% damage reduction would be awesome to survive and make rogues have a place in clash. The reason being is that we have to drop nox just to use this skill. That means that there needs to be some advantage to it because we are killing things slower.

I don't mind giving up noxious for razor, but there needs to be damage reduction greater than 10% attached. Even 25% is plenty alongside this new addition. Using razor makes us kill things slower so we need to use it and survive long enough to make up for the missing damage of aimed shot.

even with damage reduction you are giving up a damage skill to use it(nox), which makes you less of a cannon drops your overall damage we need to compensate the loss damage otherwise the"rogue" concept breaks from damage nuke into something wierd

[Zeus]

Warriors have 40-60% damage reduction? Mages has 50 I believe if not 55, rogues has 10? At least 25-20% reduction in razor will be fine.

Exactly, I'm not asking for a lot and I believe I'm being reasonable. I am just asking to be able to survive if a support class rushes me as soon as Nekro drops.

We must remember that class balance should never depends on pets. As it currently is, a rogue's balance in PvP heavily depends on Nekro shield. That's why when we see the Nekro shield drop, so does rogues. Sorcerers and warriors do not have this problem because they have defensive measure of their own, each of varying amounts. I'm not asking to be immortal, I'm just asking to have some time to survive when Nekro shield fades.

I hope a developer sees this and understands that it's a very reasonable request.


Thank you!


even with damage reduction you are giving up a damage skill to use it(nox), which makes you less of a cannon drops your overall damage

If you can survive the Mage rush, then it's okay. I can manage. Rogue just needs to be able to survive till the next Nekro shield (6 seconds). Once that happens, they have a place in clash and everything is okay. Team heals are not enough for a rogue to last these 6 seconds. That's why the damage reduction is needed.

[DAmage126]

Rogues dish out more damage than mages and warriors thats why the devs want them to stay a glass cannon. If they are given defensive measures such as mages and tanks in addition to nekro, they would just steam roll every other class.

[Ireliaa]

If you can survive the Mage rush, then it's okay. I can manage. Rogue just needs to be able to survive till the next Nekro shield (6 seconds). Once that happens, they have a place in clash and everything is okay.
well you suvive but you do much less of a damage which may lead you to not able to kill aswell, besides u sure %25 gonna be enough? it wont stack with nekro also its 8 sec
you gotta try it before claiming i guess, DR vs doing less dmg

but no need to argue this is just stun immunity jokish buff

[Imback Al]

Man..razor shield has no use in pvp lol. People only use it to vs tanks, and even sometimes you don't need to use razor shield. I was hoping for an armor buff? That would still be minimal, like adding 100 armor back to rogues.

[Plqgue]

Exactly, I'm not asking for a lot and I believe I'm being reasonable. I am just asking to be able to survive if a support class rushes me as soon as Nekro drops.

We must remember that class balance should never depends on pets. As it currently is, a rogue's balance in PvP heavily depends on Nekro shield. That's why when we see the Nekro shield drop, so does rogues. Sorcerers and warriors do not have this problem because they have defensive measure of their own, each of varying amounts. I'm not asking to be immortal, I'm just asking to have some time to survive when Nekro shield fades.

I hope a developer sees this and understands that it's a very reasonable request.


Thank you!



If you can survive the Mage rush, then it's okay. I can manage. Rogue just needs to be able to survive till the next Nekro shield (6 seconds). Once that happens, they have a place in clash and everything is okay. Team heals are not enough for a rogue to last these 6 seconds. That's why the damage reduction is needed.

+1 I agree the damage reduction would be a great help for you guys to stay alive long enough to be useful

[Imback Al]

Rogues dish out more damage than mages and warriors thats why the devs want them to stay a glass cannon. If they are given defensive measures such as mages and tanks in addition to nekro, they would just steam roll every other class.

It would be great if rogues could use that damage and not get killed instantly by a Mage rush.

[Zeus]

well you suvive but you do much less of a damage which may lead you to not able to kill aswell, besides u sure %25 gonna be enough? it wont stack with nekro also its 8 sec
you gotta try it before claiming i guess, DR vs doing less dmg

but no need to argue this is just stun immunity jokish buff

I'm positive it will be enough. You shouldn't be using razor at the same time as Nekro anyways.

[Ireliaa]

Man..razor shield has no use in pvp lol. People only use it to vs tanks, and even sometimes you don't need to use razor shield. I was hoping for an armor buff? That would still be minimal, like adding 100 armor back to rogues.

100 armor offers like %2.5 damage reduction, its like getting %2.5 healt, so 150-200 hp extra gonna solve it?

[Imback Al]

100 armor offers like %2.5 damage reduction, its like getting %2.5 healt, so 150-200 hp extra gonna solve it?

Ofc, I would take 100 armor or 150-200 hp any day, but think about it. With mm stats, daggers, and best armor, you can get 2.45k armor, 1.3k damage, 6k hp and 50% crit. No Mage could kill a rogue with 6k hp 2.4k armor

[Ireliaa]

I'm positive it will be enough. You shouldn't be using razor at the same time as Nekro anyways.

how much exact DR nekro offers i do not know, but it feels close to %25, i may be wrong
if you cant survive mage rush with nekro shield how can you with %25 DR

[Zeus]

100 armor offers like %2.5 damage reduction, its like getting %2.5 healt, so 150-200 hp extra gonna solve it?

Yep, that's not going to solve it. 25% will, and that's half of what warriors and sorcerers get. So, it should be fair. If it doesn't work, I'll eat my words. However, I'm nearly positive that it will.

[soon]

Exactly, I'm not asking for a lot and I believe I'm being reasonable. I am just asking to be able to survive if a support class rushes me as soon as Nekro drops.

We must remember that class balance should never depends on pets. As it currently is, a rogue's balance in PvP heavily depends on Nekro shield. That's why when we see the Nekro shield drop, so does rogues. Sorcerers and warriors do not have this problem because they have defensive measure of their own, each of varying amounts. I'm not asking to be immortal, I'm just asking to have some time to survive when Nekro shield fades.

I hope a developer sees this and understands that it's a very reasonable request.


Thank you!



If you can survive the Mage rush, then it's okay. I can manage. Rogue just needs to be able to survive till the next Nekro shield (6 seconds). Once that happens, they have a place in clash and everything is okay. Team heals are not enough for a rogue to last these 6 seconds. That's why the damage reduction is needed.



Damage reduction would be useful for PVE as well.

[yubaraj]

Just revert back to what it was before global Nerf thing happened.

Nerf rogue damage by 10% in PvP but give them back armor.

I am pretty sure rogues will cry more.

[intrepd]

well you suvive but you do much less of a damage which may lead you to not able to kill aswell, besides u sure %25 gonna be enough? it wont stack with nekro also its 8 sec
you gotta try it before claiming i guess, DR vs doing less dmg

but no need to argue this is just stun immunity jokish buff

Rogues only need 25% damage reduction in razors but make it to not be stackable with Nekro shield and such, its just to survive without nekro since a rogue without nekro is just food for 3 mages, Rogues are going to replace nox with razors and 25% is nothing compared to 55% plus rogues are going to lose damage as well from losing nox so it should be fine no?

[Zeus]

how much exact DR nekro offers i do not know, but it feels close to %25, i may be wrong
if you cant survive mage rush with nekro shield how can you with %25 DR

Nekro offers 40% damage reduction. I'm able to survive Mage rush with Nekro shield. As long as tank covers and sorcerer covers, I can easily survive the rush while Nekro shield is up. What I cannot survive though is as soon as Nekro shield drops and rogues have no protection. Even if tanks and sorcerers are covering with heals, I as a rogue, will not survive. Adding extra HP does not help with this - I've tried HP builds.

That's why I say damage reduction will help. It will help insure that a rogue does not get one combo'd as soon as Nekro drops. As I said, class balance shouldn't rely on a pet. Currently, rogue heavily relies on Nekro to do anything in PvP. Other classes can use pets like Korruption and SnS, but a rogue cannot use anything but Nekro.

50% DR for razor is an overdose, but 25% will be enough to help you survive. Now, are you going to be able to brush off the rush? No, it'll still hurt like hell. But, if you're smart and think quickly, that 25% DR will help you live through it, to the next heal and get the Nekro shield.

[Ireliaa]

Ofc, I would take 100 armor or 150-200 hp any day, but think about it. With mm stats, daggers, and best armor, you can get 2.45k armor, 1.3k damage, 6k hp and 50% crit. No Mage could kill a rogue with 6k hp 2.4k armor

no single mage i agree, problem is with cluster of mages

[intrepd]

how much exact DR nekro offers i do not know, but it feels close to %25, i may be wrong
if you cant survive mage rush with nekro shield how can you with %25 DR

I believe I heard nekro was 40% and it's not this way, mages rush once nekro shield is down, rogues need to sync this 25% with nekro to survive and it's not 100% guarantee chance to survive anyways lol.
Sorry ik this question was not to me but tried to help out giving info

[Breakingbadxx]

Doesn't relying on a skill like razor shield in the first place backfire on the glass "cannon" concept?

2 of 4 skill slots are used up for non-"cannon" skills on a "glass cannon"

Where does the "cannon" come in play in this?

On another note, i'm still trying hard to understand how this "buff" increases rogue survivability exactly. Just curious.

[Ireliaa]

Nekro offers 40% damage reduction. I'm able to survive Mage rush with Nekro shield. As long as tank covers and sorcerer covers, I can easily survive the rush while Nekro shield is up. What I cannot survive though is as soon as Nekro shield drops and rogues have no protection. Even if tanks and sorcerers are covering with heals, I as a rogue, will not survive. Adding extra HP does not help with this - I've tried HP builds.

That's why I say damage reduction will help. It will help insure that a rogue does not get one combo'd as soon as Nekro drops. As I said, class balance shouldn't rely on a pet. Currently, rogue heavily relies on Nekro to do anything in PvP. Other classes can use pets like Korruption and SnS, but a rogue cannot use anything but Nekro.

50% DR for razor is an overdose, but 25% will be enough to help you survive. Now, are you going to be able to brush off the rush? No, it'll still hurt like hell. But, if you're smart and think quickly, that 25% DR will help you live through it, to the next heal and get the Nekro shield.

well in random tdm's mage team pretty much flattens rogue team in my experience, when they are grouped and similar gear to you thats what i was trying to tell, on your case equal team with mix, yea you can survive

about the coverage you are right its painful to wait AA cooldown and only thing you can do is hide until you get the nekro shield up.

[Ireliaa]

Rogues only need 25% damage reduction in razors but make it to not be stackable with Nekro shield and such, its just to survive without nekro since a rogue without nekro is just food for 3 mages, Rogues are going to replace nox with razors and 25% is nothing compared to 55% plus rogues are going to lose damage as well from losing nox so it should be fine no?

i agree it provides some coverage between AA's and its pretty usefull about not being food. Its just the damage loss concerned me, i never changed 4 pvp skills from 31 cap i personally cant foresee the effect of losing your one damage skill

well to see, we need to get the DR first hear us vroom:P

[extrapayah]

imo, any skill and upgrades should have additional/improved effect whenever we charge it. if the game is moving toward mindless tapping game, people will indirectly encouraged to use makro/auto-tapping/auto-clicker

i think you should add some improved effect to charged one, either in damage reduction, dot protection, or reduce the effectiveness of non-charged one, and keep the charged one as it is

[Safiras]

Doesn't relying on a skill like razor shield in the first place backfire on the glass "cannon" concept?

2 of 4 skill slots are used up for non-"cannon" skills on a "glass cannon"

Where does the "cannon" come in play in this?

On another note, i'm still trying hard to understand how this "buff" increases rogue survivability exactly. Just curious.

The idea is that you offer the rogue flexibility in deciding how much "glass" and how much "cannon" they want to be.

Why do you want all rogues to play the same way and be equally squishy?

With razor shield you drop one offensive skill (usually noxious bolt) for one defensive skill. Means you become less cannon and less glass. It's a theoretically decent trade-off. People give noxious bolt less credit than it deserves. I've killed a number of people with nox poison many times, and it's useful as a second ranged attack when you need to keep your distance. So here is a significant damage handicap taken by the rogue when she swaps to razor shield. Problem is that currently, apart from stun immunity, damage reduction is too little to make up for the loss in damage capability. So less cannon, but not much less glass.

I would like to give the suggestion by Zeus a try. Take away KDR during testing I don't think any rogue will mind. I don't know if other classes will be as accepting of this though.

[sevenpain]

Sorry not trying to be rude but is this suppose to be a change? Most pvpers know that this upgrade ignores stun i believe

I'm still curious about ur ign

[intrepd]

I'm still curious about ur ign
Sorry i don't like to give my IGN.

[Energizeric]

Interesting discussion....

I cringe whenever an improvement to a certain skill is proposed and everyone posts "well nobody uses that skill anyway so it doesn't help...."

That itself is a sign that the discussed skill needs improvement. There should be a full variety of skill combinations that top players use. If most of the top players are all using the same build, then that indicates some balance issues among the various skills.

What annoys me about this particular discussion is that when given the opportunity to improve survivability at the expense of damage, rogues always complain that they don't like it. What Zeus is proposing sounds very reasonable. If you want better survivability, then you should have to be willing to substitute an offensive skill for a defensive skill. It appears the issue at hand here is that the rogue's defensive skill is inferior. If that is the case, then it needs to be improved to make it worthwhile to use.

As a Mage, I have 2 of my 4 skill slots using defensive/support skills (shield and heal). There is no reason a rogue cannot do that same thing. Even with only 2 offensive skills, a rogue is still going to cause much more damage than a sorcerer since the rogue's skill cool down is 2 seconds compared to 3-4 seconds for a Mage.

[Zeus]

Interesting discussion....

I cringe whenever an improvement to a certain skill is proposed and everyone posts "well nobody uses that skill anyway so it doesn't help...."

That itself is a sign that the discussed skill needs improvement. There should be a full variety of skill combinations that top players use. If most of the top players are all using the same build, then that indicates some balance issues among the various skills.

What annoys me about this particular discussion is that when given the opportunity to improve survivability at the expense of damage, rogues always complain that they don't like it. What Zeus is proposing sounds very reasonable. If you want better survivability, then you should have to be willing to substitute an offensive skill for a defensive skill. It appears the issue at hand here is that the rogue's defensive skill is inferior. If that is the case, then it needs to be improved to make it worthwhile to use.

As a Mage, I have 2 of my 4 skill slots using defensive/support skills (shield and heal). There is no reason a rogue cannot do that same thing. Even with only 2 offensive skills, a rogue is still going to cause much more damage than a sorcerer since the rogue's skill cool down is 2 seconds compared to 3-4 seconds for a Mage.

I agree, that a rogue will still do more damage than a sorcerer when comparing two skill builds. However, since the sorcerer heal is so powerful, it pretty much outheals the damage. That's why, I'm glad you agree with me, about the survivability buff. It's not too much. If you're still not careful, you will die as 25% is not a huge difference.

[DAmage126]

no single mage i agree, problem is with cluster of mages

they aren't gonna buff it so that rogues can deal with a cluster of mages lmao you want 200% damage reduction?

[intrepd]

they aren't gonna buff it so that rogues can deal with a cluster of mages lmao you want 200% damage reduction?

please show 1 post were someone asked for 200% reduction here, all i see is 25% which is not even alot but enough for a smart rogue to survive

[Breakingbadxx]

The idea is that you offer the rogue flexibility in deciding how much "glass" and how much "cannon" they want to be.

Why do you want all rogues to play the same way and be equally squishy?

With razor shield you drop one offensive skill (usually noxious bolt) for one defensive skill. Means you become less cannon and less glass. It's a theoretically decent trade-off. People give noxious bolt less credit than it deserves. I've killed a number of people with nox poison many times, and it's useful as a second ranged attack when you need to keep your distance. So here is a significant damage handicap taken by the rogue when she swaps to razor shield. Problem is that currently, apart from stun immunity, damage reduction is too little to make up for the loss in damage capability. So less cannon, but not much less glass.

I would like to give the suggestion by Zeus a try. Take away KDR during testing I don't think any rogue will mind. I don't know if other classes will be as accepting of this though.

If you believe this 'decent tradeoff' makes rogues less 'squishy' then go ahead and enjoy your "buff".

[Legallyblonde]

I think a 40% damage reduction isn't too much but isn't too little.

Also (I like how no ones thought of this) but they could increase the damage the flying knives do. It's around 200-300 damage endgame. What about 500-600? That would compliment dagger rogues nicely.

[kinzmet]

If they could make it last longer for 1 to 2 more seconds, then it could work!

[Bira]

Kizmet that would be wonderful. I die a lot in elite maps because the gap between my nekro shield and razor is too long. I can imagine the rogues in pvp are facing the same issue. If razor last 2 seconds longer it would be perfect. I think it's fair because tanks can use nekro, jugg and heal with a lot of overlap and mages have a perfect shield cycle. Rogues need something similar.

[kinzmet]

Kizmet that would be wonderful. I die a lot in elite maps because the gap between my nekro shield and razor is too long. I can imagine the rogues in pvp are facing the same issue. If razor last 2 seconds longer it would be perfect. I think it's fair because tanks can use nekro, jugg and heal with a lot of overlap and mages have a perfect shield cycle. Rogues need something similar.

The only problem is, theres really no difference on charged and uncharged razors. They could make it different by having it last longer if charged IMO.

[aneshsinghblu]

are rogues goin get free respec scrolls.. .
so I could try this skill that I never used before in pvp

does that 10% dr have to be tied to mysteries . lower level rogues don't have 10 skill points for mysteries.
that will only " balance "(if it does make a difference)pvp at high levels

[Fredystern]

Warriors have 40-60% damage reduction? Mages has 50 I believe if not 55, rogues has 10? At least 25-20% reduction in razor will be fine.

Warr was a tank so they got a big damage reduction
Mage was a supporter than they should keep alive to supporting team
Rogue was a assassin that do lot of damage but lack of defense

Well i agree with you atleast give rogue 20% damage reduction, they deal alot of damage when using pierce on clash .-.

[Oaheuzihar]

Lol, the thing is this really does nothing to help rogues. Razor shield previously was charged ahead of time when the mage rush was coming. So all this does is help out the rogues that couldn't pre-plan in the first place.

Why do we get such nonsensical buffs but when it came time to buff sorcerer and warrior, y'all gave them every bit of survivability in the book? We rogues didn't even argue when they were given such huge buffs.

Nevertheless, at least this is better than the nox upgrade and it is a step in the right direction. However, there really needs to be some damage reduction attached. Even 25% damage reduction would be awesome to survive and make rogues have a place in clash. The reason being is that we have to drop nox just to use this skill. That means that there needs to be some advantage to it because we are killing things slower.

I don't mind giving up noxious for razor, but there needs to be damage reduction greater than 10% attached. Even 25% is plenty alongside this new addition. Using razor makes us kill things slower so we need to use it and survive long enough to make up for the missing damage of aimed shot.

Well said, but having damage reduction would take away from the "glass" part of a glass cannon. Glass cannons are supposed to dish out a ton of damage but die if they get hit more than once or twice.

Can somebody please explain how aimed shot supposedly got screwed over by the buff? I have a rogue alt who is stronger now because of the buff.

Lastly, cool it with the mage drama. It's getting us nowhere.

[Zeus]

Well said, but having damage reduction would take away from the "glass" part of a glass cannon. Glass cannons are supposed to dish out a ton of damage but die if they get hit more than once or twice.

Can somebody please explain how aimed shot supposedly got screwed over by the buff? I have a rogue alt who is stronger now because of the buff.

Lastly, cool it with the mage drama. It's getting us nowhere.

If you're spamming aimed shot, yes you will hit harder. However, if you're charged each aimed then there's a difference in damage. That difference in damage is usually what breaks tanks or sorcerers.

[raw]

Trying very hard to understand how this increases rogue survivability in any way.

It's a step in the right direction, but I agree... this doesn't help very much. If Razor shield were to reduce damage by 50% then that would be something noteworthy. I don't think vroom has tried to pvp as a rogue, else he'd see how utterly useless we are in comparison to tanks/mages.

And to Saf's point, the only reason I charged Razor was for the stun immunity, so what incentive do I have to charge this skill....?

[Breakingbadxx]

Vroom, just gather average endgame rogue gear on a rogue and play tdm for a few minutes.

Even 1 minute of being a endgame rogue in tdm should give years worth of valuable discussion suggestions for the class.

I don't think this is asking for too much.

Thanks.

[Shelllz]

Vroom, just gather average endgame rogue gear on a rogue and play tdm for a few minutes.

Even 1 minute of being a endgame rogue in tdm should give years worth of valuable discussion suggestions for the class.

I don't think this is asking for too much.

Thanks.
So now u care about the average geared rogues? Come on. If dmg is buffed this average rogue will hit as hard as Zeus or imback. And what about above average geared rogue? U are a tank....are u ok with ur unbreakable jug being broken by an aimed shot? If jug will be broken the next class to complain about buff in forums will be tanks. Never ending cycle. Buff the rogue armor give them 25% dmg reduction on razor, they will be tanks while having nekro shield on. How is this a glass cannon?


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[Breakingbadxx]

So now u care about the average geared rogues? Come on. If dmg is buffed this average rogue will hit as hard as Zeus or imback. And what about above average geared rogue? U are a tank....are u ok with ur unbreakable jug being broken by an aimed shot? If jug will be broken the next class to complain about buff in forums will be tanks.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
No one is asking to be given the ability to break warriors juggernaut. The rogue community is currently asking to be given a chance to participate in groups in PvP.

Being excluded from most of PvE is something we warriors have faced for a long time.

I know how it feels.

[Zeus]

So now u care about the average geared rogues? Come on. If dmg is buffed this average rogue will hit as hard as Zeus or imback. And what about above average geared rogue? U are a tank....are u ok with ur unbreakable jug being broken by an aimed shot? If jug will be broken the next class to complain about buff in forums will be tanks. Never ending cycle. Buff the rogue armor give them 25% dmg reduction on razor, they will be tanks while having nekro shield on. How is this a glass cannon?


Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Damage reduction does not stack, so they will not be tanks.

[Shelllz]

No one is asking to be given the ability to break warriors juggernaut. The rogue community is currently asking to be given a chance to participate in groups in PvP.

Being excluded from most of PvE is something we warriors have faced for a long time.

I know how it feels.
I understand what you are saying. But if dmg buffed, rogues will be free to break jug and break mage shield even faster than they do now. With even more dmg reduction they will turn in to mini tanks.
I'm ok with giving some dmg reduction on razor. But since when rogue armor is supposed to be higher than mage? My armor is about 1600. Rogues with mm have armor of well over 2100. If I'm lucky and I crit on a nekro shielded rogue with that armor I do 1500-1700 dmg. While rogue critting me on just a nekro shield kills me with 1 shot(that's with 40% nekro shield dmg reduction) i have 6k hp .......I just don't understand the big deal here. Rogues already are cannons with more armor than mages.

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[Zeus]

I understand what you are saying. But if dmg buffed, rogues will be free to break jug and break mage shield even faster than they do now. With even more dmg reduction they will turn in to mini tanks.
I'm ok with giving some dmg reduction on razor. But since when rogue armor is supposed to be higher than mage? My armor is about 1600. Rogues with mm have armor of well over 2100. If I'm lucky and I crit on a nekro shielded rogue with that armor I do 1500-1700 dmg. While rogue critting me on just a nekro shield kills me with 1 shot(that's with 40% nekro shield dmg reduction) i have 6k hp .......I just don't understand the big deal here. Rogues already are cannons with more armor than mages.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

You cannot compare your gear to a maxed out rogues gear. A comparable sorcerer has 1800+ armor with MM.

A rogue doesn't one shot a Mage through Nekro shield either. A one combo is possible, but that's if a rogue is extremely lucky.

[Shelllz]

You cannot compare your gear to a maxed out rogues gear. A comparable sorcerer has 1800+ armor with MM.
Ok........yet I still clash with 1600 armor and beat mages who have way better gear than I do. So why can't I compare? None of our mages have 1800 armor ......
Your armor is 600 more than mine. Just saying.

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[Zeus]

Ok........yet I still clash with 1600 armor and beat mages who have way better gear than I do. So why can't I compare? None of our mages have 1800 armor ......

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It's because balance is based on what stats can be achieved, not what stats you have. You cannot set balance based on your stats. You take a look at the theoretical maximum and then balance. Then you take a look at mid range to mid range and then balance.

You do not compare high range to mid range and expect balance. Make sense? If you have low armor and are not maxed out, there's nothing wrong with the balance. It only means that you need to work on your sorcerers stats.

Thanks for bringing that up. That's a big issue that comes into play when talking about balance. People complain so and so is killing them but do not look at the disparity of stats.

My armor is higher than yours because I went through the extra measures and bought items that gave me armor. Sorcerer also has the same opportunity, you just have chosen not to do that.

[Shelllz]

It's because balance is based on what stats can be achieved, not what stats you have. You cannot set balance based on your stats. You take a look at the theoretical maximum and then balance. Then you take a look at mid range to mid range and then balance.

You do not compare high range to mid range and expect balance.
Yet, you are sitting here complaining about mages (with average gear) posing a threat to u in a clash. This is mind blowing tbh.

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[Zeus]

Yet, you are sitting here complaining about mages (with average gear) posing a threat to u in a clash. This is mind blowing tbh.

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I'm complaining about the fact that rogues do not have a place in PvP. This is a wide known fact and something that you cannot deny. Even developers have acknowledged that's an issue. Denying it at this point is futile. Like it or not, we are going to get changes for our class that make it worth playing. The same way that sorcerers got changes to their class that made a sorcerer worth playing.

Please comprehend my points and do not twist my words. Thank you.

[Justg]

PLEASE keep this conversation civil. We're very tired of moderating bickering.

These posts are for us to communicate with you and gather information. Thanks for staying on point.

[Ireliaa]

Interesting discussion....

I cringe whenever an improvement to a certain skill is proposed and everyone posts "well nobody uses that skill anyway so it doesn't help...."

That itself is a sign that the discussed skill needs improvement. There should be a full variety of skill combinations that top players use. If most of the top players are all using the same build, then that indicates some balance issues among the various skills.

What annoys me about this particular discussion is that when given the opportunity to improve survivability at the expense of damage, rogues always complain that they don't like it. What Zeus is proposing sounds very reasonable. If you want better survivability, then you should have to be willing to substitute an offensive skill for a defensive skill. It appears the issue at hand here is that the rogue's defensive skill is inferior. If that is the case, then it needs to be improved to make it worthwhile to use.

As a Mage, I have 2 of my 4 skill slots using defensive/support skills (shield and heal). There is no reason a rogue cannot do that same thing. Even with only 2 offensive skills, a rogue is still going to cause much more damage than a sorcerer since the rogue's skill cool down is 2 seconds compared to 3-4 seconds for a Mage.

well doesnt matter how much you cringe , the update by itself has no effect on survivability whatsoever, it maybe a sign but its not guarantied to be chased further

discussion is how much damage reduction should be added to make viable trade off in damage loss, you give mage example about damage loss but remember you have %55 DR shield and pretty OP heal in that tradeoff

[chiloto]

It seems to me that from reading all these threads that most ppl would be ok with buffing the cannon while maintaining the glass. So throwing out a proposal here. No idea if it is even viable. Aimed already is a hot topic so lets look at nox. Could we remove the dot from nox and make it an upgrade option. Then to improve the cannon increase the impact dmg of nox. This would give two ranged attack skills with higher dmg but not be automatically cancelled out by curse and all the dot. Thoughts?

[Oaheuzihar]

I'm complaining about the fact that rogues do not have a place in PvP. This is a wide known fact and something that you cannot deny. Even developers have acknowledged that's an issue. Denying it at this point is futile. Like it or not, we are going to get changes for our class that make it worth playing. The same way that sorcerers got changes to their class that made a sorcerer worth playing.

Please comprehend my points and do not twist my words. Thank you.

True. All classes should be worth playing. I remember how great it felt when mages got powered uo and i went from getting rekt 95% of the time to getting rekt 50% of the time. Rogues deserve this too.

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

Thanks for the feedback on Charged vs Uncharged Razor Shield. We've evaluated the ability and will also be adding an additional 3 seconds to all effects of Charged Razor Shield to maintain a reason to charge the ability.

[Zeus]

Thanks for the feedback on Charged vs Uncharged Razor Shield. We've evaluated the ability and will also be adding an additional 3 seconds to all effects of Charged Razor Shield to maintain a reason to charge the ability.

Thanks Vroom, but are rogues going to get any damage reduction besides the 10% mastery for razor? It's really essential and we even have a handful of sorcerers agreeing that 25% is not all that much?

[Stefandeaconu]

So what's the difference now between charged and uncharged razor shield? What do we gain from charging the skill?

3 extra seconds of razor

[Vorg]

If rouges are getting any type of damage reduction it should be on the shadow veil skill not on razor.

[Zeus]

If rouges are getting any type of damage reduction it should be on the shadow veil skill not on razor.

That would be pointless considering PvP is a volatile environment. Axes and pulls completely destroy the purpose of shadow veil.

[yubaraj]

I don't see warriors saying anything on this buff.

I am pretty sure after this update warrior will be crying.

Prove me wrong lol.

[Niixed]

I think some readers here find it difficult to read between the lines, so I'd like to point out that it sure looks like STS is bending over backwards and showing a vast amount of patience that is above and beyond what most developers would ever even consider doing. This is iteration number three of a very touchy subject that is guaranteed to cause lots of drama. I don't think they're masochists.

Sure, devs could give us everything we want, except that everything we want would completely ruin the game due to unforeseen and unconsidered consequences. STS' biggest job is to be is the Ultimate Guardian of Game Integrity. They know things that we don't know and they know even more things that we don't want to know about because they're too boring or technical. They cannot to reveal everything to us because it would also ruin the game and quite possibly their business. It's tough to swallow for some, but we don't have another choice but to give them a big helping of trust. We ask them to do the impossible, or rather, to make the impossible possible somehow - with code magic, dancing finger rituals, and sweat sacrifice.

My fear is that, from their perspective, we sometimes seem kinda ungrateful for their efforts. How motivated would you be to help someone who you know is ungrateful? Honest, constructive criticism is not ingratitude, but petty sniping sure is.

Perhaps you think this small buff to razor shield is "useless" or whatnot, but it isn't. It is a small step toward a greater goal. As Vroom stated: "We're intentionally moving forward with small improvements and then monitoring their effectiveness before taking more action." Do you hear what he's saying? "Improvement" has an "s" attached, indicating more than one. He's saying they're not finished yet and they're watching with full attention to see what the effect of this one is.

So, please, everyone find their tranquil zone and focus on the fact that things are moving in the direction we want.

[Zeus]

I think some readers here find it difficult to read between the lines, so I'd like to point out that it sure looks like STS is bending over backwards and showing a vast amount of patience that is above and beyond what most developers would ever even consider doing. This is iteration number three of a very touchy subject that is guaranteed to cause lots of drama. I don't think they're masochists.

Sure, devs could give us everything we want, except that everything we want would completely ruin the game due to unforeseen and unconsidered consequences. STS' biggest job is to be is the Ultimate Guardian of Game Integrity. They know things that we don't know and they know even more things that we don't want to know about because they're too boring or technical. They cannot to reveal everything to us because it would also ruin the game and quite possibly their business. It's tough to swallow for some, but we don't have another choice but to give them a big helping of trust. We ask them to do the impossible, or rather, to make the impossible possible somehow - with code magic, dancing finger rituals, and sweat sacrifice.

My fear is that, from their perspective, we sometimes seem kinda ungrateful for their efforts. How motivated would you be to help someone who you know is ungrateful? Honest, constructive criticism is not ingratitude, but petty sniping sure is.

Perhaps you think this small buff to razor shield is "useless" or whatnot, but it isn't. It is a small step toward a greater goal. As Vroom stated: "We're intentionally moving forward with small improvements and then monitoring their effectiveness before taking more action." Do you hear what he's saying? "Improvement" has an "s" attached, indicating more than one. He's saying they're not finished yet and they're watching with full attention to see what the effect of this one is.

So, please, everyone find their tranquil zone and focus on the fact that things are moving in the direction we want.

I did say I appreciate the buff in the right direction. I do understand there will be more in the future, I am just stating what should be added in the next revision. :)

[Zulgath]

I think this would help abit in pvp..

When we clash as a rogue, we rogues want to go full dmg, but the problem is we cant even use pierce frequently, bcs if we do would be extremly deadly to our hp %

What about giving us 1s of 50% of dmg reduction after using pierce

Would help us survive longer for sure and ofc dmg more bcs we will be free to use pierce everytime.. Any suggestion?

I dont think it would affect vs much if mages r smart enough to time their skills :)

I am not sure if this is too op so..

Mages like plqgue, yubaraj or whatever comments in 3..2..1..

[yubaraj]

I think this would help abit in pvp..

When we clash as a rogue, we rogues want to go full dmg, but the problem is we cant even use pierce frequently, bcs if we do would be extremly deadly to our hp %

What about giving us 1s of 50% of dmg reduction after using pierce

Would help us survive longer for sure and ofc dmg more bcs we will be free to use pierce everytime.. Any suggestion?

I dont think it would affect vs much if mages r smart enough to time their skills :)

I am not sure if this is too op so..

Mages like plqgue, yubaraj or whatever comments in 3..2..1..

1 second damage reduction ok no problem
I wish I could give it to you now.

Anyways I always want to see balance in this game. I appreciate devs hard work. I am not Kdr lover. I don't feel like ganging. I can't spawn kill. I play for fun in my free time. I just don't want to see rogue too op in PvP. Btw my main class is rogue.

[Plqgue]

I think this would help abit in pvp..

When we clash as a rogue, we rogues want to go full dmg, but the problem is we cant even use pierce frequently, bcs if we do would be extremly deadly to our hp %

What about giving us 1s of 50% of dmg reduction after using pierce

Would help us survive longer for sure and ofc dmg more bcs we will be free to use pierce everytime.. Any suggestion?

I dont think it would affect vs much if mages r smart enough to time their skills :)

I am not sure if this is too op so..

Mages like plqgue, yubaraj or whatever comments in 3..2..1..
I actually think that Zeus has it right with the 25% damage reduction added in razor not pierce ...oh and thanks for mentioning me :)

[Zynzyn]

I think some readers here find it difficult to read between the lines, so I'd like to point out that it sure looks like STS is bending over backwards and showing a vast amount of patience that is above and beyond what most developers would ever even consider doing. This is iteration number three of a very touchy subject that is guaranteed to cause lots of drama. I don't think they're masochists.

Sure, devs could give us everything we want, except that everything we want would completely ruin the game due to unforeseen and unconsidered consequences. STS' biggest job is to be is the Ultimate Guardian of Game Integrity. They know things that we don't know and they know even more things that we don't want to know about because they're too boring or technical. They cannot to reveal everything to us because it would also ruin the game and quite possibly their business. It's tough to swallow for some, but we don't have another choice but to give them a big helping of trust. We ask them to do the impossible, or rather, to make the impossible possible somehow - with code magic, dancing finger rituals, and sweat sacrifice.

My fear is that, from their perspective, we sometimes seem kinda ungrateful for their efforts. How motivated would you be to help someone who you know is ungrateful? Honest, constructive criticism is not ingratitude, but petty sniping sure is.

Perhaps you think this small buff to razor shield is "useless" or whatnot, but it isn't. It is a small step toward a greater goal. As Vroom stated: "We're intentionally moving forward with small improvements and then monitoring their effectiveness before taking more action." Do you hear what he's saying? "Improvement" has an "s" attached, indicating more than one. He's saying they're not finished yet and they're watching with full attention to see what the effect of this one is.

So, please, everyone find their tranquil zone and focus on the fact that things are moving in the direction we want.

Oh such deference! Admirable indeed.

It is realized that devs are doing their best to work on balance and the effort is acknowledged by several among us. The issue is very clear - All 3 classes are now damage-dealers, and 2 of them survive longer than the rogue, making Mage+Tank an effective enough team to not need rogues in teamfights. Another problem is that while Tanks and Mages can use any arcane pet and still be effective, Rogues have to always rely on the Nekro AA.

When these are the issues, lets see it for ourselves when the update goes live, whether the new razor helps. It is appreciated that changes are made with small steps and testing, we are definitely going in the right direction.

[Energizeric]

Overall I think the big problem with PvP is how fast kills are obtained. This is why many of us prefer twink PvP -- the fights actually last a while.

As long as PvP at endgame is a 10 second affair, then balance is going to be very tough to achieve. As an example, let's talk a mage vs rogue battle. So as a mage, I put up my shield and attack the rogue. If I manage to kill him with the first 2-3 hits, I can win the fight. But if he manages to get to his healing packs in between those hits, then he will survive, and by then my shield will be down, and the rogue will be able to kill me with a single combo.

If the rogue's defense was just a little bit better, then the mage will not be able to kill the rogue before the mage shield drops, and then the rogue will win the battle. If the rogue's defense is slightly worse, then the mage will win the battle. There is no room for error or variety of strategy here. There is no grey area.... It's either white or black.

Now let's examine this same battle at level 10. At level 10, at best I will be able to reduce the rogue's health by about 40-50% with 2-3 hits. The rogue will surely get to his healing packs, and when my shield goes down, the rogue will be able to get my health down with a few attacks, but not enough to kill me. I will then be able to heal myself (although not fully) and the cycle will repeat. The winner will be whoever outlasts the other. This could take 3 or more rounds of shields & healing packs. If someone lands a critical hit or a stun, that could be enough to turn the tide and gain a win. But for the most part, whoever plays the more perfect match will win.

[Fredystern]

Oh such deference! Admirable indeed.

It is realized that devs are doing their best to work on balance and the effort is acknowledged by several among us. The issue is very clear - All 3 classes are now damage-dealers, and 2 of them survive longer than the rogue, making Mage+Tank an effective enough team to not need rogues in teamfights. Another problem is that while Tanks and Mages can use any arcane pet and still be effective, Rogues have to always rely on the Nekro AA.

When these are the issues, lets see it for ourselves when the update goes live, whether the new razor helps. It is appreciated that changes are made with small steps and testing, we are definitely going in the right direction.

All class become damage dealer when capped 46 .-. tank and mage damage only different about 150

[Ireliaa]

Oh such deference! Admirable indeed.

It is realized that devs are doing their best to work on balance and the effort is acknowledged by several among us. The issue is very clear - All 3 classes are now damage-dealers, and 2 of them survive longer than the rogue, making Mage+Tank an effective enough team to not need rogues in teamfights. Another problem is that while Tanks and Mages can use any arcane pet and still be effective, Rogues have to always rely on the Nekro AA.

When these are the issues, lets see it for ourselves when the update goes live, whether the new razor helps. It is appreciated that changes are made with small steps and testing, we are definitely going in the right direction.

and since putting back mage and warr where they were before is not an option, putting the rogue into the standards of todays pvp is the way
which leaves us with heavy buff on survivability if you wanna compete or if you wanna use a pet other than nekro and have equal standards

[intrepd]

Overall I think the big problem with PvP is how fast kills are obtained. This is why many of us prefer twink PvP -- the fights actually last a while.

As long as PvP at endgame is a 10 second affair, then balance is going to be very tough to achieve. As an example, let's talk a mage vs rogue battle. So as a mage, I put up my shield and attack the rogue. If I manage to kill him with the first 2-3 hits, I can win the fight. But if he manages to get to his healing packs in between those hits, then he will survive, and by then my shield will be down, and the rogue will be able to kill me with a single combo.

If the rogue's defense was just a little bit better, then the mage will not be able to kill the rogue before the mage shield drops, and then the rogue will win the battle. If the rogue's defense is slightly worse, then the mage will win the battle. There is no room for error or variety of strategy here. There is no grey area.... It's either white or black.

Now let's examine this same battle at level 10. At level 10, at best I will be able to reduce the rogue's health by about 40-50% with 2-3 hits. The rogue will surely get to his healing packs, and when my shield goes down, the rogue will be able to get my health down with a few attacks, but not enough to kill me. I will then be able to heal myself (although not fully) and the cycle will repeat. The winner will be whoever outlasts the other. This could take 3 or more rounds of shields & healing packs. If someone lands a critical hit or a stun, that could be enough to turn the tide and gain a win. But for the most part, whoever plays the more perfect match will win.

exactly, but if we are buffing rogue armor through stats then it would just make it harder for mages, thats why its better to add 25% reduce damage to razors then if rogues want a little more defense then they have to exchange it with 1 of the offensive skills which is most likely Nox, does it not sound fair?

[Ireliaa]

Overall I think the big problem with PvP is how fast kills are obtained. This is why many of us prefer twink PvP -- the fights actually last a while.

As long as PvP at endgame is a 10 second affair, then balance is going to be very tough to achieve. As an example, let's talk a mage vs rogue battle. So as a mage, I put up my shield and attack the rogue. If I manage to kill him with the first 2-3 hits, I can win the fight. But if he manages to get to his healing packs in between those hits, then he will survive, and by then my shield will be down, and the rogue will be able to kill me with a single combo.

If the rogue's defense was just a little bit better, then the mage will not be able to kill the rogue before the mage shield drops, and then the rogue will win the battle. If the rogue's defense is slightly worse, then the mage will win the battle. There is no room for error or variety of strategy here. There is no grey area.... It's either white or black.

Now let's examine this same battle at level 10. At level 10, at best I will be able to reduce the rogue's health by about 40-50% with 2-3 hits. The rogue will surely get to his healing packs, and when my shield goes down, the rogue will be able to get my health down with a few attacks, but not enough to kill me. I will then be able to heal myself (although not fully) and the cycle will repeat. The winner will be whoever outlasts the other. This could take 3 or more rounds of shields & healing packs. If someone lands a critical hit or a stun, that could be enough to turn the tide and gain a win. But for the most part, whoever plays the more perfect match will win.

lol isnt rogue suppose to take mage?, what happened rock paper scissor? where warrior has enermous advantage over rogue which even leads imposible to take down, you want to take rogue before your shild goes down

do you know what happens when nekro shield goes down which has way less of a duration than mage shield mage destroys rogue it matters on group fights

on side note if you use razor, you lose your nox, so that spam combo loses entire skill, calculate that also on your hypotetical battle

[Oaheuzihar]

Thanks Vroom, but are rogues going to get any damage reduction besides the 10% mastery for razor? It's really essential and we even have a handful of sorcerers agreeing that 25% is not all that much?

From my standpoint, 25% is fine. Have any warriors actually agreed on this? They will be affected more because their damage reduction from jugg is lower than charged arcane shield.

[( DAMAGE )]

Rogues with a buff to their survivability would just ruin the game..
with that insane damage..
solo no one would ever kill a rogue.....with that crazy damage and them being able to outlive tanks/mages shields they would become un killable exactly like in the previous seasons any noob with gears can tap buttons and kill the most skilled tanks and mages....atleast now pvp is like the paper rock scissors theory devs mentioned before which is better than being on 1 class rules the game!
But rogues should not have a buff to their defence!

EDIT imo best way to fix the issue is nerf other classes damage or specifically mages damage so that when you add a mage or a rogue u have to sacrifice...either u take a rogue for damage or a mage for support mana etc....

[intrepd]

Rogues with a buff to their survivability would just ruin the game..
with that insane damage..
solo no one would ever kill a rogue.....with that crazy damage and them being able to outlive tanks/mages shields they would become un killable exactly like in the previous seasons any noob with gears can tap buttons and kill the most skilled tanks and mages....atleast now pvp is like the paper rock scissors theory devs mentioned before which is better than being on 1 class rules the game!
But rogues do and should not have a buff to their defence!

25% Reduce damage is not even any good in vs imo, i would rather keep nox instead, dont forget that this would be buffed on razor not on stats which mean that we are going to lose a offensive skill just for a little reduce damage which is not any better than nekro shield.

[Breakingbadxx]

Firstly, I applaud the way you guys communicate with the AL community, it allows for great things to be possible for this game and its done beyond that of most other games. You really do deserve praise for listening to and discussing with your players so well.

Theoretically, increasing the duration of razor shield by 3 seconds should do no more to increase survivability more than the potential of the current razor shield.

Being stunned in a clash is a circumstantial way rogues get wiped, but the fact is really the damage taken, which they can't even hang on by a thread to. Originally being "tanky" meant that the effect of being stunned in a clash could be nullified, so at that time, "tankiness" served a purpose immunity could not even hope to compare.

Additionally, the buffs you are giving (and propose to continue to give) to the rogue class seem (respectfully) very minor (judging by the path taken via the previous and current suggestions).

Is there any way that you can assure the rogue community that IF a major buff is necessary at some point, that option is available?

I can understand taking things slow and simple to not affect the current PvP game-play much, but when the end result of these buffs or after such a long period of time spent buffing; leads to not solving the problem of rogue usefullness in a team in PvP, a major frustration will erupt due to patience on the side of those players. You should keep this in mind.

As far back as I remember, sending out major buffs and adjusting them as necessary seemed to work fine, save time and keep player dissatisfaction to a minimum.

Sadly, my friend already gave up hope in you guys when you suggested the x2 damage on noxus bolt as a solve for the problem of low rogue survivability in clashes (which has been present for a long time now). The first suggested change to the razor shield just seemed to put the nail in the coffin. This may also explain why we see the same faces and low numbers from the rogue community commenting on every thread involving the question of rogue usefulness in team PvP.

Some say a class restriction in PvP will stop them playing with friends, but there has been no class restriction implemented and...I can no longer play with my friend.

Thanks for your time.

[DAmage126]

please show 1 post were someone asked for 200% reduction here, all i see is 25% which is not even alot but enough for a smart rogue to survive

It sarcasm just saying that if you want to survive a cluster of mages you better have like 200% or something (which is not happening)

[DAmage126]

lol isnt rogue suppose to take mage?, what happened rock paper scissor? where warrior has enermous advantage over rogue which even leads imposible to take down, you want to take rogue before your shild goes down

do you know what happens when nekro shield goes down which has way less of a duration than mage shield mage destroys rogue it matters on group fights

on side note if you use razor, you lose your nox, so that spam combo loses entire skill, calculate that also on your hypotetical battle
If you want class balance start thinking how it would be a fair fight between the classes not which class should dominate the other

[will0]

Before Nekro was introduce rogues are very much op in PVP many seasons and reasons together with warrior arcane maul with countless stuns, now you all complain after Nekro buff you are unable to survive....

Reading many pages of this thread we can easily identify who are the few been asking for buff and more buff (rants). Nerf Nekro in pvp so rogues will have to use razor shield even they like or not they are too reliant on nekro and asking for op skills... This applies to anyone using nekro i think will be fair ..

[Imback Al]

There is a simple conclusion to this. Sts adds real clashes. CONFIGURABLE CLASHES. One team creates a clash, and decides what classes are used. 2 Mage 3 tank..3 rogue 2 Mage..2 tank 1 Mage 2 rogues etc etc.

[Imback Al]

The clash domain in pvp. A seperate map much like duel environment...since vs takes precedence over clash right? Lmao

[Safiras]

Before Nekro was introduce rogues are very much op in PVP many seasons and reasons together with warrior arcane maul with countless stuns, now you all complain after Nekro buff you are unable to survive....

Reading many pages of this thread we can easily identify who are the few been asking for buff and more buff (rants). Nerf Nekro in pvp so rogues will have to use razor shield even they like or not they are too reliant on nekro and asking for op skills... This applies to anyone using nekro i think will be fair ..

This was before the buff to sorceror shield that allowed you to gain stun immunity and erase all negative effects including curse and poison. Do not forget this. Without the shield buff you would be right, but we are no longer in that period of the game when sorcerors were always stunned and had no stun protection. Rogues won because in spite of your shield we could still stun you. Not anymore.

[will0]

This was before the buff to sorceror shield that allowed you to gain stun immunity and erase all negative effects including curse and poison. Do not forget this. Without the shield buff you would be right, but we are no longer in that period of the game when sorcerors were always stunned and had no stun protection. Rogues won because in spite of your shield we could still stun you. Not anymore.

Yes i agree your statement, but now with razor shield buff it is still not enough looking at all those threads ... Shield is part of mage survival tool, and in AL razor as well even though it is not use for many reason still a skill of protection.

Remove nekro all together and see what will happen to pvp... all back to basic.

[Zeus]

Yes i agree your statement, but now with razor shield buff it is still not enough looking at all those threads ... Shield is part of mage survival tool, and in AL razor as well even though it is not use for many reason still a skill of protection.

Remove nekro all together and see what will happen to pvp... all back to basic.

You would need to take away sorcerer shield buffs as well if you remove Nekro. :D

[Plqgue]

You would need to take away sorcerer shield buffs as well if you remove Nekro. :D

Wouldn't you just love that haha

[Breakingbadxx]

Its clear that the developers fear breaking the 1v1 balance by allowing rogues to become tanky enough to survive in a clash against warriors and mages.

Is there any way to give them such survivability in ONLY a TEAM scenario?

These minor buffs will just amount to making rogues 1v1 kings and still unusable in clashes.

From what I see, the rogue community clearly couldn't care less for what happens in a 1v1 scenario.

They want to clash.

[Earlingstad]

Its clear that the developers fear breaking the 1v1 balance by allowing rogues to become tanky enough to survive in a clash against warriors and mages.

Is there any way to give them such survivability in ONLY a TEAM scenario?

These minor buffs will just amount to making rogues 1v1 kings and still unusable in clashes.

From what I see, the rogue community clearly couldn't care less for what happens in a 1v1 scenario.

They want to clash.

Speak for yourself. Rogues do care about 1v1. Right now in duels Warrios, Mages and Rogues have achieved a sort of balance where the classes can kill each other. Its fine. And on all my toons - mage/warrior/rogue- I want to play 1v1 as well as clash but 1v1 is preferred.

Razor shield upgrade just MIGHT solve the issue of rogues getting left out of clashes without toppling the 1v1 balance. Let us try it first.

[Breakingbadxx]

Speak for yourself. Rogues do care about 1v1. Right now in duels Warrios, Mages and Rogues have achieved a sort of balance where the classes can kill each other. Its fine. And on all my toons - mage/warrior/rogue- I want to play 1v1 as well as clash but 1v1 is preferred.

Razor shield upgrade just MIGHT solve the issue of rogues getting left out of clashes without toppling the 1v1 balance. Let us try it first.

Enjoy your "buffs" then.

As long as mages remain unchanged, anyone (including me) would always choose a mage over a rogue to have on a PvP team. (Especially when a mage stack will always mean doomsday for any rogue(s) regardless of skill). *Especially since the developers have made it clear that rogues won't be getting any really game changing buffs. (Happy days for warriors like myself and mages).

You hope to counter a warrior and mage team with a rogue stack some day? *imagines the day* > we can all dream I guess.

I already have a perfect plan (using a mage stack) to counter any rogue trying stay alive using razor shield. It takes into account the fact that the glass has just gained immunity for long periods but is still the same GLASS.

Forget increasing survivability via increasing armor or damage reduction because the developers have clearly stated that you will REMAIN GLASS.

On that topic, are rogues going to be present to struggle to survive or deal damage?

Don't bother responding to or quoting this post.

I'm done here, thanks.

[Imback Al]

Enjoy your "buffs" then.

As long as mages remain unchanged, anyone (including me) would always choose a mage over a rogue to have on a PvP team. (Especially when a mage stack will always mean doomsday for any rogue(s) regardless of skill). *Especially since the developers have made it clear that rogues won't be getting any really game changing buffs. (Happy days for warriors like myself and mages).

You hope to counter a warrior and mage team with a rogue stack some day? *imagines the day* > we can all dream I guess.

I already have a perfect plan (using a mage stack) to counter any rogue trying stay alive using razor shield.

Forget increasing survivability via increasing armor or damage reduction because the developers have clearly stated that you will REMAIN GLASS.

On that topic, are rogues going to be present to struggle to survive or deal damage?

Don't bother responding to or quoting this post.

I'm done here, thanks.

First off lol. Zeus and I beat 2 tanks 1 Mage 2v3 in tdm. He can attest. It's really simple. Rogues just don't know how to use haste set intelligently. Sts gave rogues haste set to make them in demand. If you use haste set with your regular arc ring pp/arc pendant set, then you can swap between the two making you unkillable if you know how to use it.

[Breakingbadxx]

First off lol. Zeus and I beat 2 tanks 1 Mage 2v3 in tdm. He can attest. It's really simple. Rogues just don't know how to use haste set intelligently. Sts gave rogues haste set to make them in demand. If you use haste set with your regular arc ring pp/arc pendant set, then you can swap between the two making you unkillable if you know how to use it.
Let's just compare every rogue and their wallets to you or Zeus.

2 rogues on 1 team with etc. vs 2 warriors and 3 mages...I'll leave it there.

Enjoy your buffs.

I already stated that i'm done here.

[Sweetkitty]

Perhaps it's time for sts to deploy the arrogance nerf and we can go back to enjoying a fun game....

[Ireliaa]

If you want class balance start thinking how it would be a fair fight between the classes not which class should dominate the other

sure thats was my first suggestion, tell that to warriors not me.
anyway feedback etc here going nowhere im done here i have no hope its gonna be handled

[Shelllz]

Rogues with a buff to their survivability would just ruin the game..
with that insane damage..
solo no one would ever kill a rogue.....with that crazy damage and them being able to outlive tanks/mages shields they would become un killable exactly like in the previous seasons any noob with gears can tap buttons and kill the most skilled tanks and mages....atleast now pvp is like the paper rock scissors theory devs mentioned before which is better than being on 1 class rules the game!
But rogues should not have a buff to their defence!

EDIT imo best way to fix the issue is nerf other classes damage or specifically mages damage so that when you add a mage or a rogue u have to sacrifice...either u take a rogue for damage or a mage for support mana etc....

So your solution is....instead of buffing one class is to nerf 2. My mind is BLOWN.

[yubaraj]

First off lol. Zeus and I beat 2 tanks 1 Mage 2v3 in tdm. He can attest. It's really simple. Rogues just don't know how to use haste set intelligently. Sts gave rogues haste set to make them in demand. If you use haste set with your regular arc ring pp/arc pendant set, then you can swap between the two making you unkillable if you know how to use it.

Share your wisdom please. So rogues can learn how to better defend themselves so I don't have to hear rogues crying in the forum.

[yubaraj]

Rogues with a buff to their survivability would just ruin the game..
with that insane damage..
solo no one would ever kill a rogue.....with that crazy damage and them being able to outlive tanks/mages shields they would become un killable exactly like in the previous seasons any noob with gears can tap buttons and kill the most skilled tanks and mages....atleast now pvp is like the paper rock scissors theory devs mentioned before which is better than being on 1 class rules the game!
But rogues should not have a buff to their defence!

EDIT imo best way to fix the issue is nerf other classes damage or specifically mages damage so that when you add a mage or a rogue u have to sacrifice...either u take a rogue for damage or a mage for support mana etc....

Warriors are more killer than a tank. Why not Nerf their damage first?

[Breakingbadxx]

Warriors are more killer than a tank. Why not Nerf their damage first?
Mage survivability and damage in a team is too high. Do you really want to start this?

[Breakingbadxx]

Share your wisdom please. So rogues can learn how to better defend themselves so I don't have to hear rogues crying in the forum.
Apparently rogues don't need buffing because every one of them is either a Zeus or Imback. Let them share their tactics that make them unkillable instead of using up developer time on such issues. I agree.

[Shelllz]

Mage survivability and damage in a team is too high. Do you really want to start this?
You are trying to say to nerf mage dmg but since when tanks get 60 kills in clashes? Just wow.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Breakingbadxx]

You are trying to say to nerf mage dmg but since when tanks get 60 kills in clashes? Just wow.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
I was indicating that we shouldn't start pointing fingers.

[Sweetkitty]

Maybe the team with the rogue should spam a blocker lol. Or is that only done at lower lvl :D

[Breakingbadxx]

First off lol. Zeus and I beat 2 tanks 1 Mage 2v3 in tdm. He can attest. It's really simple. Rogues just don't know how to use haste set intelligently. Sts gave rogues haste set to make them in demand. If you use haste set with your regular arc ring pp/arc pendant set, then you can swap between the two making you unkillable if you know how to use it.

Why are unkillable rogues being buffed? Why do you want us to go back to "Rogue Legends"? What was the purpose of PART 1, PART 2 and PART 3?

By the way, thank you for helping me understand that the rogue class is beyond balanced in PvP.

[Shelllz]

I was indicating that we shouldn't start pointing fingers.
Yet you keep pointing your finger at mages. But maybe u forgot about the weapons tanks have. Proc kills. Frequently. This has been going on since sword with lava. If you want to point fingers, point them at yourself. Tanks are not meant to get almost as many kills at mages. Just stop. No one is complaining about tanks killing in high numbers. Why u wanna nerf mage now? It's like me saying nerf tank weapons to make tanks less of killers and more of tanks. You don't see me asking for tank nerf doe.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Breakingbadxx]

Yet you keep pointing your finger at mages. But maybe u forgot about the weapons tanks have. Proc kills. Frequently. This has been going on since sword with lava. If you want to point fingers, point them at yourself. Tanks are not meant to get almost as many kills at mages. Just stop. No one is complaining about tanks killing in high numbers. Why u wanna nerf mage now? It's like me saying nerf tank weapons to make tanks less of killers and more of tanks. You don't see me asking for tank nerf doe.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
'Yubaraj' was the first to finger point. I was making a point.

If you read carefully before 'ranting', you would see I didn't mention nerfing mages.

[yubaraj]

'Yubaraj' was the first to finger point. I was making a point.

Nope it was damage. If you read what damage said and whom I quote that comment for.

[Shelllz]

First off lol. Zeus and I beat 2 tanks 1 Mage 2v3 in tdm. He can attest. It's really simple. Rogues just don't know how to use haste set intelligently. Sts gave rogues haste set to make them in demand. If you use haste set with your regular arc ring pp/arc pendant set, then you can swap between the two making you unkillable if you know how to use it.
You just proved everyone's point on how rogues DO NOT need any more buffs, since you are already "unkillable"
Thanks

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Breakingbadxx]

Nope it was damage. If you read what damage said and whom I quote that comment for.
Indicate a quote as a quote next time, thanks.

[Sweetkitty]

How can the same ppl brag about how they can't lose on this thread then go and cry on another thread about how they are paper? The hypocrisy is hilarious.

[Plqgue]

How can the same ppl brag about how they can't lose on this thread then go and cry on another thread about how they are paper? The hypocrisy is hilarious.

Well if you notice the whole point of them asking for a buff is apparently because they can't survive not one but three mages which is a hopeless effort either way.......rogues want to be able to survive a gang....
And multiple rogues have stated they can't survive against three which is kind of dumb because three people killing one will happen to any class

[Justg]

Thanks folks, I think we have gotten enough feedback from this thread.