View Full Version : How To Fix The Class Stacking Issue in PvP
Niixed
08-04-2016, 05:04 PM
I've read a lot of earnest requests by fellow players for class restrictions in PvP, meaning that any given PvP room would only allow a set number from each class. I'm sorry to disappoint, but think it's a really terrible idea. Not only would it increase class resentment (we don't need any more of that!), but it would actually turn away legit players just trying to play PvP. It's a much bigger barrier, I think, than proponents imagine. And, I don't buy the "greater good" argument for a second, an individual player must have a right to play regardless of which class they choose. Individual player needs should trump guild needs in most cases.
That being said, It's quite obvious that players using certain skills with area of effect become ridiculously difficult to overcome if they are used by multiple players of the same class in close proximity to each other. 3-4 warriors healing and jugg-ing and stunning and proc-ing weapons together become an unstoppable force. Same with Sorcerers, but to a lesser degree. Most PvP-useful Rogues skills just don't get a stack advantage. This situation is clearly unfair to Rogues.
One way to fix this issue is to apply a diminishing returns rule to certain AoE skills if they are used in proximity to each other within a set time. It's an idea I'm stealing from economics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns), but it applies in many other fields study and in everyday life.
Example of how diminishing return (DR) rule might work on the Warrior skill Horn of Renew.
Warrior A charges, then activates Horn of Renew.
The DR timer is set for 15 seconds and the DR proximity is set to the range of 8 meters, all based on Warrior A's skill stats.
2 seconds later, Warrior B charges, then activates Horn of Renew within the 8 meter area surrounding Warrior A.
The DR rule gets applied and Warrior B's Horn of Renew damage healed is reduced by 33% (66% of normal heal), and the protective shield duration is also reduced by 33% (66% of normal time)
4 seconds later Warrior C charges, then activates Horn of Renew within the 8 meter area surrounding Warrior A.
Because the original DR timer (15 sec) hasn't yet expired, the DR rule gets applied again.
Warrior C's Horn of Renew damage healed is reduced by another 33% (43.56% of normal heal), and the protective shield duration is also reduced by 33% (43.56% of normal time)
6 seconds later Warrior D charges, then activates Horn of Renew within the 8 meter area surrounding Warrior A.
Because the original DR timer (15 sec) still hasn't expired, the DR rule gets applied yet again.
Warrior D's Horn of Renew damage healed is reduced by another 33% (28.75% of normal heal), and the protective shield duration is also reduced by 33% (28.75% of normal time)
The DR timer expires.
Warrior E charges, then activates Horn of Renew with 100% damage heal and protective shield time
The DR timer for HoR gets set to his appropriate skill stats.
As you can imagine, this scheme would eliminate the overwhelming advantage that is now (inadvertently) granted by stacking players of the same class. If implemented, the DM Rule would also increase gameplay options and number of strategies employed.
Comments and critiques are welcome!
I've read a lot of earnest requests by fellow players for class restrictions in PvP, meaning that any given PvP room would only allow a set number from each class. I'm sorry to disappoint, but think it's a really terrible idea. Not only would it increase class resentment (we don't need any more of that!), but it would actually turn away legit players just trying to play PvP. It's a much bigger barrier, I think, than proponents imagine. And, I don't buy the "greater good" argument for a second, an individual player must have a right to play regardless of which class they choose. Individual player needs should trump guild needs in most cases.
That being said, It's quite obvious that players using certain skills with area of effect become ridiculously difficult to overcome if they are used by multiple players of the same class in close proximity to each other. 3-4 warriors healing and jugg-ing and stunning and proc-ing weapons together become an unstoppable force. Same with Sorcerers, but to a lesser degree. Most PvP-useful Rogues skills just don't get a stack advantage. This situation is clearly unfair to Rogues.
One way to fix this issue is to apply a diminishing returns rule to certain AoE skills if they are used in proximity to each other within a set time. It's an idea I'm stealing from economics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns), but it applies in many other fields study and in everyday life.
Example of how diminishing return (DR) rule might work on the Warrior skill Horn of Renew.
Warrior A charges, then activates Horn of Renew.
The DR timer is set for 15 seconds and the DR proximity is set to the range of 8 meters, all based on Warrior A's skill stats.
2 seconds later, Warrior B charges, then activates Horn of Renew within the 8 meter area surrounding Warrior A.
The DR rule gets applied and Warrior B's Horn of Renew damage healed is reduced by 33% (66% of normal heal), and the protective shield duration is also reduced by 33% (66% of normal time)
4 seconds later Warrior C charges, then activates Horn of Renew within the 8 meter area surrounding Warrior A.
Because the original DR timer (15 sec) hasn't yet expired, the DR rule gets applied again.
Warrior C's Horn of Renew damage healed is reduced by another 33% (43.56% of normal heal), and the protective shield duration is also reduced by 33% (43.56% of normal time)
6 seconds later Warrior D charges, then activates Horn of Renew within the 8 meter area surrounding Warrior A.
Because the original DR timer (15 sec) still hasn't expired, the DR rule gets applied yet again.
Warrior D's Horn of Renew damage healed is reduced by another 33% (28.75% of normal heal), and the protective shield duration is also reduced by 33% (28.75% of normal time)
The DR timer expires.
Warrior E charges, then activates Horn of Renew with 100% damage heal and protective shield time
The DR timer for HoR gets set to his appropriate skill stats.
As you can imagine, this scheme would eliminate the overwhelming advantage that is now (inadvertently) granted by stacking players of the same class. If implemented, the DM Rule would also increase gameplay options and number of strategies employed.
Comments and critiques are welcome!
If this is also implemented for sorcerer heal and rogue heal packs, this would be great. Of course, rogue heal packs would need to be designed per skill and not per pack.
Energizeric
08-04-2016, 09:22 PM
Q: How to fix class stacking issue?
A: Fix the class balance in PvP!
I don't understand what the issue is. I'm mostly a pve player but whenever I have wanted to pvp, I just join a map and fight. It's never been a problem. Quite frankly, I would say that the majority of players on both teams are usually rogues. So if a class restriction is implemented, it would only hurt rogues, not help us.
Kriticality
08-05-2016, 12:11 AM
I don't understand what the issue is. I'm mostly a pve player but whenever I have wanted to pvp, I just join a map and fight. It's never been a problem. Quite frankly, I would say that the majority of players on both teams are usually rogues. So if a class restriction is implemented, it would only hurt rogues, not help us.
I agree.
#nerfrogues #bufftheblueones
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
savaage
08-05-2016, 12:43 AM
Well! I guess u meant to say at least one class each should be present in a team of 5 or 4 whatever it might be. However there are situations where it could just be two or one classes of players online in any pvp guild due to different timezones. So if they somehow engage in pvp with an enemy guild according to what u want to be implemented then there ll be 1 or 2 slots empty for that guild as the system won't allow much players from a particular class. Which won't be doing much good either. My suggestion would be to keep the things as it is and enjoy.
Amen.
Niixed
08-05-2016, 06:47 AM
Q: How to fix class stacking issue?
A: Fix the class balance in PvP!
How's that strategy been working out for ya?
Niixed
08-05-2016, 08:03 AM
Well! I guess u meant to say at least one class each should be present in a team of 5 or 4 whatever it might be. However there are situations where it could just be two or one classes of players online in any pvp guild due to different timezones. So if they somehow engage in pvp with an enemy guild according to what u want to be implemented then there ll be 1 or 2 slots empty for that guild as the system won't allow much players from a particular class. Which won't be doing much good either. My suggestion would be to keep the things as it is and enjoy.
Amen.
That's not at all what I said. I oppose class restrictions. I support reducing the benefit that certain skills, pets, and weapons grant when they are stacked. Why? Because it is essentially a system exploit. There's no way that it was intended to work this way.
Clashes have always been a little ridiculous because it's basically a chaotic mosh pit of players stacked on top of one another, requiring little thought or strategy. The appeal to the whole player base is rather low; most don't enjoy that sort of PvP.
Wouldn't it be awesome if PvP had more variety and was more challenging?
resurrected
08-05-2016, 08:33 AM
I still would like to see how class restriction will work out... anyways idea is nice.
Niixed
08-05-2016, 02:40 PM
I still would like to see how class restriction will work out... anyways idea is nice.
Thank you!
Vroom has confirmed multiple times that STS will not be implementing class restrictions. That idea is a dead end already. :/
resurrected
08-05-2016, 02:48 PM
Thank you!
Vroom has confirmed multiple times that STS will not be implementing class restrictions. That idea is a dead end already. :/
Oh... didn't noticed that. Hope they will atleast test your idea :)
Fredystern
08-06-2016, 01:08 AM
Uh isnt that kind of nerf?
Fresh Broccoli
08-06-2016, 01:40 AM
If we can set up a broccoli booth at the entrance and give away free broccoli to everyone who enters, i think it would fix this problem.
Energizeric
08-06-2016, 03:37 AM
How's that strategy been working out for ya?
My point is that people seem to be looking for a solution that does not address the actual problem. Just fix the problem instead of finding workarounds.
Fredystern
08-06-2016, 04:08 AM
My point is that people seem to be looking for a solution that does not address the actual problem. Just fix the problem instead of finding workarounds.
People now using class based on enemy skill play i think, but now i always pvp together rogue instead og other mages, im a mage too.
I was experienced once 2 rogue 2 mages beat 1tank 3 mages(mage didnt got arc ring) i think it was already balanced but the reason that rogue didnt participate in clash cause thier attack skill was a single player, but the main problem was whenrogue is given area damage skill with high damage output mages will not in clash anymore
Niixed
08-06-2016, 10:18 AM
My point is that people seem to be looking for a solution that does not address the actual problem. Just fix the problem instead of finding workarounds.
This isn't a workaround. Class-stacking has always been an issue and it is a big part of the balance equation... how could it not be? Rogues can no longer overpower a stack as they once did, so they have pointed out the obvious problem. The fact that they could overpower a stack was evidence that they were too overpowered before. STS has been explicitly clear that they feel Rogues are very close to balanced, if not actually in a state of balance. That needle won't be moving much at all.
Class stacking is problematic because the exponential benefits received from stacking mean that the winner of PvP clashes is almost always determined by who can stack the best. It's monotonous and senseless. It's glorified tug-of-war. Sure that can be fun the first few times, but there's only so much tug-of-war one can take before it becomes intolerably dull. This inevitable dullness is one reason why some players leave the game entirely and why more otherwise-active players don't play PvP.
My idea would inject some options, strategies and life into PvP clashes. I think it's crucial and necessary.
Niixed
08-06-2016, 10:53 AM
I'd like to clarify my original post, so it's easier to grasp for the tl;dr folks.
"Diminishing returns" is just another way of saying that each time you add one more of the same thing, it benefits you a little less.
Example 1: If you're very hungry, the first sandwich tastes great. The second sandwich fills you up even more. But, because you're now too full, the third sandwich makes you sick to your stomach.
Example 2: You buy one car, giving you the ability to drive anywhere on demand. You buy a second car as a backup alternative to the first car, but the expenses start adding up. You buy a third car purely for vanity, but the costs of managing and maintaining all 3 cars is large enough to create a lot of additional work.
Hopefully that's a little clearer!
I took a little time to lay out what a Diminishing Returns scheme might look like when applied to skills or whatnot. These are only my suggestions. Any skill with AoE damage or an AoE benefit could potentially qualify.
Sorcerer Skill Canidates
Frost Bolt (Charged Only)
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage*
First Sorcerer
14 meters
3 seconds
100.00%
Second Sorcerer
**
**
75.00%
Third Sorcerer
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Sorcerer
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Sorcerer
**
**
31.64%
Gale Force
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage*
First Sorcerer
9 meters
5.5 seconds
100.00%
Second Sorcerer
**
**
75.00%
Third Sorcerer
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Sorcerer
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Sorcerer
**
**
31.64%
Fireball
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage*
First Sorcerer
14 meters
3-4 seconds
100.00%
Second Sorcerer
**
**
75.00%
Third Sorcerer
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Sorcerer
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Sorcerer
**
**
31.64%
Time Shift
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage*
First Sorcerer
5 meters
10 seconds
100.00%
Second Sorcerer
**
**
75.00%
Third Sorcerer
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Sorcerer
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Sorcerer
**
**
31.64%
Curse
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage*
First Sorcerer
4-6 meters
5-7 seconds
100.00%
Second Sorcerer
**
**
75.00%
Third Sorcerer
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Sorcerer
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Sorcerer
**
**
31.64%
Lifegiver
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Heal*
First Sorcerer
6-8 meters
15 seconds
100.00%
Second Sorcerer
**
**
75.00%
Third Sorcerer
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Sorcerer
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Sorcerer
**
**
31.64%
Rogue Skill Candidates
Noxious Bolt
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage*
First Rogue
14 meters
2 seconds
100.00%
Second Rogue
**
**
75.00%
Third Rogue
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Rogue
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Rogue
**
**
31.64%
Shadow Storm Shot
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage*
First Rogue
14 meters
5 seconds
100.00%
Second Rogue
**
**
75.00%
Third Rogue
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Rogue
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Rogue
**
**
31.64%
Shadow Veil
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage Reduction*
First Rogue
8 meters?
20 seconds
15.00%
Second Rogue
**
**
11.25%
Third Rogue
**
**
8.44%
Fourth Rogue
**
**
6.33%
Fifth Rogue
**
**
4.75%
Combat Medic
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Heal*
First Rogue
6 meters?
15 seconds
100.00%
Second Rogue
**
**
75.00%
Third Rogue
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Rogue
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Rogue
**
**
31.64%
Warrior Skill Candidates
Skyward Smash
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage*
First Warrior
12 meters
4 seconds
100.00%
Second Warrior
**
**
75.00%
Third Warrior
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Warrior
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Warrior
**
**
31.64%
Windmill
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage*
First Warrior
4 meters
10 seconds
100.00%
Second Warrior
**
**
75.00%
Third Warrior
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Warrior
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Warrior
**
**
31.64%
Vengeful Blood
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Heal*
First Warrior
6 meters?
20-25 seconds
100.00%
Second Warrior
**
**
75.00%
Third Warrior
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Warrior
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Warrior
**
**
31.64%
Horn of Renew
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage*
First Warrior
6-8 meters
15 seconds
100.00%
Second Warrior
**
**
75.00%
Third Warrior
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Warrior
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Warrior
**
**
31.64%
Pet Candidates
Korruption
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Mana Reduction*
First Player
15 meters?
10 seconds?
10.00%
Second Player
**
**
7.50%
Third Player
**
**
5.63%
Fourth Player
**
**
4.22%
Fifth Player
**
**
3.16%
Weapon Candidates
Dragon Sword
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Proc Damage*
First Warrior
6 meters?
10 seconds?
100.00%
Second Warrior
**
**
75.00%
Third Warrior
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Warrior
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Warrior
**
**
31.64%
* Each subsequent activation is reduced by 25% in this case. In my OP HoR example, I used 33%, but it seemed too steep upon further consideration.
** DR Proximity and DR Duration (timer) are determined by the first player which activates the skill, aa, or proc. The numbers are based on the actual range and cooldown of the First player's skill and the resulting area is centered on the player. Once the timer expires, the next player to use the skill, aa, or proc receives the full benefit once again.
I'd like to clarify my original post, so it's easier to grasp for the tl;dr folks.
"Diminishing returns" is just another way of saying that each time you add one more of the same thing, it benefits you a little less.
Example 1: If you're very hungry, the first sandwich tastes great. The second sandwich fills you up even more. But, because you're now too full, the third sandwich makes you sick to your stomach.
Example 2: You buy one car, giving you the ability to drive anywhere on demand. You buy a second car as a backup alternative to the first car, but the expenses start adding up. You buy a third car purely for vanity, but the costs of managing and maintaining all 3 cars is large enough to create a lot of additional work.
Hopefully that's a little clearer!
I took a little time to lay out what a Diminishing Returns scheme might look like when applied to skills or whatnot. These are only my suggestions. Any skill with AoE damage or an AoE benefit could potentially qualify.
Sorcerer Skill Canidates
Frost Bolt (Charged Only)
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage*
First Sorcerer
14 meters
3 seconds
100.00%
Second Sorcerer
**
**
75.00%
Third Sorcerer
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Sorcerer
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Sorcerer
**
**
31.64%
Gale Force
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage*
First Sorcerer
9 meters
5.5 seconds
100.00%
Second Sorcerer
**
**
75.00%
Third Sorcerer
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Sorcerer
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Sorcerer
**
**
31.64%
Fireball
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage*
First Sorcerer
14 meters
3-4 seconds
100.00%
Second Sorcerer
**
**
75.00%
Third Sorcerer
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Sorcerer
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Sorcerer
**
**
31.64%
Time Shift
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage*
First Sorcerer
5 meters
10 seconds
100.00%
Second Sorcerer
**
**
75.00%
Third Sorcerer
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Sorcerer
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Sorcerer
**
**
31.64%
Curse
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage*
First Sorcerer
4-6 meters
5-7 seconds
100.00%
Second Sorcerer
**
**
75.00%
Third Sorcerer
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Sorcerer
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Sorcerer
**
**
31.64%
Lifegiver
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Heal*
First Sorcerer
6-8 meters
15 seconds
100.00%
Second Sorcerer
**
**
75.00%
Third Sorcerer
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Sorcerer
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Sorcerer
**
**
31.64%
Rogue Skill Candidates
Noxious Bolt
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage*
First Rogue
14 meters
2 seconds
100.00%
Second Rogue
**
**
75.00%
Third Rogue
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Rogue
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Rogue
**
**
31.64%
Shadow Storm Shot
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage*
First Rogue
14 meters
5 seconds
100.00%
Second Rogue
**
**
75.00%
Third Rogue
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Rogue
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Rogue
**
**
31.64%
Shadow Veil
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage*
First Rogue
8 meters?
2 seconds
100.00%
Second Rogue
**
**
75.00%
Third Rogue
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Rogue
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Rogue
**
**
31.64%
Combat Medic
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage*
First Rogue
6 meters?
15 seconds
100.00%
Second Rogue
**
**
75.00%
Third Rogue
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Rogue
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Rogue
**
**
31.64%
Warrior Skill Candidates
Skyward Smash
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage*
First Warrior
12 meters
4 seconds
100.00%
Second Warrior
**
**
75.00%
Third Warrior
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Warrior
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Warrior
**
**
31.64%
Windmill
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage*
First Warrior
4 meters
10 seconds
100.00%
Second Warrior
**
**
75.00%
Third Warrior
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Warrior
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Warrior
**
**
31.64%
Vengeful Blood
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Heal*
First Warrior
6 meters?
20-25 seconds
100.00%
Second Warrior
**
**
75.00%
Third Warrior
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Warrior
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Warrior
**
**
31.64%
Horn of Renew
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Damage*
First Warrior
6-8 meters
15 seconds
100.00%
Second Warrior
**
**
75.00%
Third Warrior
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Warrior
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Warrior
**
**
31.64%
Pet Candidates
Korruption
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Mana Reduction*
First Player
15 meters?
10 seconds?
10.00%
Second Player
**
**
7.50%
Third Player
**
**
5.63%
Fourth Player
**
**
4.22%
Fifth Player
**
**
3.16%
Weapon Candidates
Dragon Sword
DR Proximity
DR Duration
DR Proc Damage*
First Warrior
6 meters?
10 seconds?
100.00%
Second Warrior
**
**
75.00%
Third Warrior
**
**
56.25%
Fourth Warrior
**
**
42.19%
Fifth Warrior
**
**
31.64%
* Each subsequent activation is reduced by 25% in this case. In my OP HoR example, I used 33%, but it seemed too steep upon further consideration.
** DR Proximity and DR Duration (timer) are determined by the first player which activates the skill, aa, or proc. The numbers are based on the actual range and cooldown of the First player's skill and the resulting area is centered on the player. Once the timer expires, the next player to use the skill, aa, or proc receives the full benefit once again.
That would be quite cool!
Energizeric
08-06-2016, 02:32 PM
A very easy solution this problem is to implement combinations as was done in Pocket Legends. Some combination of 3 skills from 3 different classes can produce a combo effect to multiply damage. Or this could also be done on defensive or healing skills.
I also would not have an issue with the diminishing effect idea, except for one thing.... A healing skill should always heal the caster at full strength. The diminishing effect should only apply to its effect on other teammates. I may choose to save my heal until I need it for myself, and it would not be right if the skill was pretty useless to me at that point in time.
A very easy solution this problem is to implement combinations as was done in Pocket Legends. Some combination of 3 skills from 3 different classes can produce a combo effect to multiply damage. Or this could also be done on defensive or healing skills.
I also would not have an issue with the diminishing effect idea, except for one thing.... A healing skill should always heal the caster at full strength. The diminishing effect should only apply to its effect on other teammates. I may choose to save my heal until I need it for myself, and it would not be right if the skill was pretty useless to me at that point in time.
This would be epic! And yes, I agree. So in short, do to sorcerer heal what happened to warrior heal.
JesuisCharlie
08-08-2016, 06:56 AM
Its quite easy, remove stacking and add CLASS COMBO