Requesting the return of PvP Updates: Proposed Balance Changes (7/21/16)

[Breakingbadxx]

I would like the developers to bring back these suggestions and fixes they proposed.

Vroom pointed out:

Currently in PvP, healing and damage are scaled based on your level. At level 56 you deal 50% damage and heal for 50%. We believe this has overall resulted in better PvP battles. Thanks to all the posts from the community we've identified aspects of survivability which do not have any kind of reduction. These are Arcane Shield's Damage Reduction, the health increase from Juggernaut, and the length of invulnerability from Horn of Renew.

Here is our thought on why Damage Reduction not scaling becomes a problem. If I'm a Rogue (or any character) and use an attack which deals 1000 damage to a Sorcerer with Arcane Shield, that damage is reduced because Arcane Shield gives Damage Reduction. Let's say my Arcane Shield gives me 55% Damage Reduction. This means that 1000 damage becomes 450 damage. Now if you include the 50% damage decrease in place in PvP, this 1000 damage drops all the way to 225 damage. Having the damage decrease in PvP compounds the effectiveness of my Arcane Shield, in a way that players dealing damage can't keep up with.

The health increase of Juggernaut works similarly. Juggernaut increases your health by 25% of your armor, and with the Ignore Pain upgrade gives you 40% (or 65%) damage reduction while active. Let's say I receive 1000 health from Juggernaut (meaning I have 4000 armor). Normally this would mean I can take 1 more hit from that Rogue dealing 1000 damage. Taking 40% Damage Reduction into account, the Rogue's 1000 damage would be reduced to 600 damage, so I would be able to take 2 hits before losing my Juggernaut health. Now add in the PvP damage decrease, and the Rogue only deals 300 damage. Now a single use of Juggernaut means I can take 4 more hits from the Rogue.

Both of the given cases are further lowered by the natural armor the Sorcerer or Warrior has, further decreasing the amount of damage they receive. We want to address these abilities so that the scaling of survivability matches with the scaling of damage and healing.

Proposed Changes:
1) The damage reduction of Arcane Shield will scale with player level (in PvP only) at the same rate damage is scaled. At level 1 the reduction will remain 45% for uncharged and 55% for charged. At level 56 the damage reduction will be half that value, 22.5% for uncharged and 27.5% for charged. The health of the shield will not be adjusted as part of this change.
2) The amount of bonus health that Juggernaut grants will scale with player level (in PvP only) at the same rate damage is scaled. At level 1 Juggernaut will grant 17.5% health uncharged and 25% health charged. At level 56 Juggernaut will grant 8.75% health uncharged and 12.5% health charged. The Damage Reduction gained from Juggernaut will not be adjusted as part of this change.

This all makes sense so why was the fix for these not implemented?

Requesting a developer response.

- your friendly neighborhood Balanceboy.

[will0]

no thanks to breaking mage only surviving skill (arcane shield). I feel it is fair as it is.. with your op 46 arcane sword + glint stone set

[Breakingbadxx]

no thanks to breaking mage only surviving skill (arcane shield). I feel it is fair as it is.. with your op 46 arcane sword + glint stone set

Arcane shield absorbing 2x more damage than it should be is not balance.

The lava proc of the lvl 46 arcane sword has already been nerfed in damage and stun btw.

[Lim Weibin]

Bring back the rogue economy!

[Breakingbadxx]

Bring back the rogue economy!

Actually, this is about something which the developers figured out was affecting PvP balance and a fix should have been implemented but it was instead forgotten.

Vroom literally gives an extremely detailed and valid explanation of why such changes should happen. What reason is there for abandoning this?

[Lawpvp]

I would like the developers to bring back these suggestions and fixes they proposed.

Vroom pointed out:

Currently in PvP, healing and damage are scaled based on your level. At level 56 you deal 50% damage and heal for 50%. We believe this has overall resulted in better PvP battles. Thanks to all the posts from the community we've identified aspects of survivability which do not have any kind of reduction. These are Arcane Shield's Damage Reduction, the health increase from Juggernaut, and the length of invulnerability from Horn of Renew.

Here is our thought on why Damage Reduction not scaling becomes a problem. If I'm a Rogue (or any character) and use an attack which deals 1000 damage to a Sorcerer with Arcane Shield, that damage is reduced because Arcane Shield gives Damage Reduction. Let's say my Arcane Shield gives me 55% Damage Reduction. This means that 1000 damage becomes 450 damage. Now if you include the 50% damage decrease in place in PvP, this 1000 damage drops all the way to 225 damage. Having the damage decrease in PvP compounds the effectiveness of my Arcane Shield, in a way that players dealing damage can't keep up with.

The health increase of Juggernaut works similarly. Juggernaut increases your health by 25% of your armor, and with the Ignore Pain upgrade gives you 40% (or 65%) damage reduction while active. Let's say I receive 1000 health from Juggernaut (meaning I have 4000 armor). Normally this would mean I can take 1 more hit from that Rogue dealing 1000 damage. Taking 40% Damage Reduction into account, the Rogue's 1000 damage would be reduced to 600 damage, so I would be able to take 2 hits before losing my Juggernaut health. Now add in the PvP damage decrease, and the Rogue only deals 300 damage. Now a single use of Juggernaut means I can take 4 more hits from the Rogue.

Both of the given cases are further lowered by the natural armor the Sorcerer or Warrior has, further decreasing the amount of damage they receive. We want to address these abilities so that the scaling of survivability matches with the scaling of damage and healing.

Proposed Changes:
1) The damage reduction of Arcane Shield will scale with player level (in PvP only) at the same rate damage is scaled. At level 1 the reduction will remain 45% for uncharged and 55% for charged. At level 56 the damage reduction will be half that value, 22.5% for uncharged and 27.5% for charged. The health of the shield will not be adjusted as part of this change.
2) The amount of bonus health that Juggernaut grants will scale with player level (in PvP only) at the same rate damage is scaled. At level 1 Juggernaut will grant 17.5% health uncharged and 25% health charged. At level 56 Juggernaut will grant 8.75% health uncharged and 12.5% health charged. The Damage Reduction gained from Juggernaut will not be adjusted as part of this change.

This all makes sense so why was the fix for these not implemented?

Requesting a developer response.

- your friendly neighborhood Balanceboy.

+1

It was abandoned due to mages thinking they know more about rogue balance than rogue players do. Now that mages are on top they want to keep rogues down. Fact

[Zeus]

+1

It was abandoned due to mages thinking they know more about rogue balance than rogue players do. Now that mages are on top they want to keep rogues down. Fact

This is exactly what is happening. Funny thing is rogues were never so cruel to sorcerers when they were weak. Sorcerers literally do not want rogues in PvP. It's ridiculous and tiresome, tbh.

[Breakingbadxx]

On another note, throughout AL's time, warriors and rogues have suffered nerfs left, right and center.

I don't remember the mage class ever receiving a nerf. Only huge buffs.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not btw.

More reason not to yield to pressure from the mage community concerning a fix that could be considered a nerf to their class.

[Zeus]

On another note, throughout AL's time, warriors and rogues have suffered nerfs left, right and center.

I don't remember the mage class ever receiving a nerf. Only huge buffs.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not btw.

The only time was at the start of PvP.

[Plqgue]

It's funny mages were the weakest class for years and now that we're useful too the same five people cry to have us nerfed

[Breakingbadxx]

The only time was at the start of PvP.

What was it for?

[Breakingbadxx]

It's funny mages were the weakest class for years and now that we're useful too the same five people cry to have us nerfed

This is a problem the developers discovered. I'm just bringing it back to light.

The reasons Vroom highlighted for the changes listed are valid.

[Plqgue]

This is a problem the developers discovered. I'm just bringing it back to light.

The reasons Vroom highlighted for the changes listed are valid.

And the reasons they trashed those proposals for were also valid...

[yubaraj]

Yap nekro shields damage reduction too by 50% plz.

[Breakingbadxx]

And the reasons they trashed those proposals for were also valid...

With so many calls for a class restriction to solve the issue of mage and tank stacking, the reasons for trashing such proposals clearly weren't.

[Plqgue]

With so many calls for a class restriction to solve the issue of mage and tank stacking, the reasons for trashing such proposals clearly weren't.

It's clear the developers think differently as these changes weren't implemented because it would go right back to what we went through for three years
rogue legends

[Breakingbadxx]

It's clear the developers think differently as these changes weren't implemented because it would go right back to what we went through for three years
rogue legends

False comments such as "Rogue legends" from the mage community was most likely the reason the changes were not implemented.

Keep your drama out of this thread.

[Plqgue]

Comments such as "Rogue legends" from the mage community was most likely the reason the changes were not implemented.

Keep your drama out of this thread.

It's drama to have an opinion?
This is why nobody takes you five seriously
You just can't handle other people have opinions on what affects all three classes..

[Breakingbadxx]

It's drama to have an opinion?
This is why nobody takes you five seriously
You just can't handle other people have opinions on what affects all three classes..

You used the comment "rogue legends" with the intent to cause drama and probably get this thread locked. Refrain from using such comments.

A developer may as well edit it for the intent of drama.

Additionally, are you not the same mage continuously causing drama on balance threads with your "opinion"?

[Zeus]

What was it for?

Freeze and stuns used to work for their full PvE duration.

Anyways, I spoke with Vroom and rogue buffs are coming but they're not opening up discussion threads because of the very reason you mentioned. So sit tight and let us see what the developers bring.

[Plqgue]

You used the comment "rogue legends" with the intent to cause drama and probably get this thread locked. Refrain from using such comments.

It was rogue legends for three years it's not a false statement it's true mages were getting one shot killed through shield and rogues were nearly impossible to kill. Now you want it to go right back to this....

[Breakingbadxx]

It was rogue legends for three years it's not a false statement it's true mages were getting one shot killed through shield and rogues were nearly impossible to kill. Now you want it to go right back to this....

The arcane shield is absorbing 2x the damage its supposed to. Its a fix, not a nerf :)

You should also know, cannons can penetrate shields.

[Zeus]

It was rogue legends for three years it's not a false statement it's true mages were getting one shot killed through shield and rogues were nearly impossible to kill. Now you want it to go right back to this....

It wasn't.

S1 not Rogue Legends. Rogues were the weakest class and then they had Aimed Shot reworked to give them a purpose.
S2 was Warrior Legends
S3 was Rogue Legends due to Arcane Hooks
S4 was all classes balanced. However, if you really want to argue it then it was Warrior Legends due to Arcane Maul.
S5 was Rogue Legends
S6 was beginning of Sorcerer Legends
S7 was Sorcerer Legends
S8 is Sorcerer Legends

I just want to set it straight. S6 was beginning of the multitude of Sorcerer buffs. There is a time frame for you to reference now. AL started in November 2012. It is now August 2016. Your post says they've ruled the game for 3 years, but this is not true. Have they had some seasons were they were all powerful? Sure, but so have the other classes. Thank you for your time.

P.S: If you noticed, sorcerers have had 3 seasons which is far more than any other class. In fact, they've been responsible for getting warriors nerfed multiple times in things like the bulwark curse.

[Breakingbadxx]

I'll reiterate, I am asking for a fix on a skill that is currently absorbing 2x the damage it is supposed to.

The rogue class had their combat medic skill fixed after it was healing 2x what it was supposed to.

I also don't mind the change for the warrior class if this is in the name of balance (which it is).

- I am a warrior.

[Zeus]

I wonder, is there push notifications to sorcerers for rogue buffs? It sure seems like it.

[Anyona]

Vroom should've used appropriate numbers in his example, no rogue skill at endgame hits for 1000 damage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Breakingbadxx]

Vroom should've used appropriate numbers in his example, no rogue skill at endgame hits for 1000 damage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It was just a simplified example.

It still shows a ridiculous amount of damage reduction though.

1000 damage (reduced to) 225 damage. Wew.

This is actually when NOT TAKING PLAYER ARMOR INTO ACCOUNT. The damage is reduced even further when armor is accounted for.

No wonder we stack mages.

Clearly needs fixing.

[( DAMAGE )]

It wasn't.

S1 not Rogue Legends. Rogues were the weakest class and then they had Aimed Shot reworked to give them a purpose.
S2 was Warrior Legends
S3 was Rogue Legends due to Arcane Hooks
S4 was all classes balanced. However, if you really want to argue it then it was Warrior Legends due to Arcane Maul.
S5 was Rogue Legends
S6 was beginning of Sorcerer Legends
S7 was Sorcerer Legends
S8 is Sorcerer Legends

I just want to set it straight. S6 was beginning of the multitude of Sorcerer buffs. There is a time frame for you to reference now. AL started in November 2012. It is now August 2016. Your post says they've ruled the game for 3 years, but this is not true. Have they had some seasons were they were all powerful? Sure, but so have the other classes. Thank you for your time.

P.S: If you noticed, sorcerers have had 3 seasons which is far more than any other class. In fact, they've been responsible for getting warriors nerfed multiple times in things like the bulwark curse.

S 1 and 2 were like weeks s3 ya rogues S4 i dont remember any tank in the game beating pro rogues like (ipredator, love and many others) and s5 which was when rogues were glitched and played as gods it lasted the same length as all the seasons combined....when rogues had their season they were gods..mages today arent gods! any decent rogue would beat any decent mage anyday!

[Zeus]

S 1 and 2 were like weeks s3 ya rogues S4 i dont remember any tank in the game beating pro rogues like (ipredator, love and many others) and s5 which was when rogues were glitched and played as gods it lasted the same length as all the seasons combined....when rogues had their season they were gods..mages today arent gods! any decent rogue would beat any decent mage anyday!

Venom beat iPredator, so did a few others. Nothing beat the arcane maul. :D

How are sorcerers today not gods? They kind of are in the sense that they've made the DPS class (rogue) useless.

S1 and S2 were about 2 months long each.

[( DAMAGE )]

Venom beat iPredator, so did a few others. Nothing beat the arcane maul. :D

How are sorcerers today not gods? They kind of are in the sense that they've made the DPS class (rogue) useless.

S1 and S2 were about 2 months long each.

thats the exact problem it has to be fixed wisely..
mages make no place for rogues in a clash but u have to remember that nerfing as breakingbad is suggesting simply will make rogues invincible at soloing yes it will balance clashes but it will again make rogues unbeatable in a 1 v 1

[Breakingbadxx]

thats the exact problem it has to be fixed wisely..
mages make no place for rogues in a clash but u have to remember that nerfing as breakingbad is suggesting simply will make rogues invincible at soloing yes it will balance clashes but it will again make rogues unbeatable in a 1 v 1

Asking for a skill absorbing 2x the damage it should to be fixed is not asking for a nerf.

OK, how about this:

*Revert the lvl 46 arcane sword to the way it was when it was released.

*Revert the combat medic skill to healing 2x as much as it should.

*Revert elondrian bulwark to 100% chance to apply curse + return the original damage reflection of the curse it applied.

*Revert aimed shot to its original inconsistent "spiky" damage.

*Return the rogue classes armor that made them too "tanky".

These are all examples of things not working as intended and got fixed.

The mage community will learn to get over their shield fix as the rest of us have all gotten over our fixes.

[yubaraj]

The only problem I see is the lvl 46 arcane sword in clash.

Mage should be the only class who can stun.

Btw don't forget that rogue is single target damage dealer why rogues should replace mage class in clash.

If you see current scenario, rogue wins vs with mage. Rogue win vs with warrior. Rogue is still op class.

[Breakingbadxx]

The only problem I see is the lvl 46 arcane sword in clash.

Mage should be the only class who can stun.

Btw don't forget that rogue is single target damage dealer why rogues should replace mage class in clash.

If you see current scenario, rogue wins vs with mage. Rogue win vs with warrior. Rogue is still op class.

It's already been nerfed.

[( DAMAGE )]

Asking for a skill absorbing 2x the damage it should to be fixed is not asking for a nerf.

OK, how about this:

*Revert the lvl 46 arcane sword to the way it was when it was released.

*Revert the combat medic skill to healing 2x as much as it should.

*Revert elondrian bulwark to 100% chance to apply curse + return the original damage reflection of the curse it applied.

*Revert aimed shot to its original inconsistent "spiky" damage.

*Return the rogue classes armor that made them too "tanky".

These are all examples of things not working as intended and got fixed.

The mage community will learn to get over it as we all have.

Rogue aimed shot wasnt actually nerfed bro it hits as average now 5500 to 6000 dont forget
and despite what u stated above...1 class should not dominate on equal bases the other 2 classes in a 1 vs 1 no matter what!
The only way to fix it MAYBE is nerfing the mages damage and nothing else! nerfing the shield fixes nothing! it will only make the mages the most useless class!

[Breakingbadxx]

Rogue aimed shot wasnt actually nerfed bro it hits as average now 5500 to 6000 dont forget
and despite what u stated above...1 class should not dominate on equal bases the other 2 classes in a 1 vs 1 no matter what!
The only way to fix it MAYBE is nerfing the mages damage and nothing else! nerfing the shield fixes nothing! it will only make the mages the most useless class!

1). Where did I mention that the aimed shot was nerfed?

2). The developers suggested the arcane shield fix and explained why they suggested such. It all makes sense and should be implemented.

3). I will not deviate from the developers original intentions.

[Valkiryas]

Well in fact the arcane shield can absorb 55% by 4/5 (There's an upgrade were the description says " Now Arcane shield can absorb more damage" I am not sure if that upgrade can make the original "55%" more stronger) and the mastery adds 15% more to 55, that mean 70% Reduction.

And I am not taking in count the fact of the fast CD from shield ( There's around 9 seconds to use again the shield ), and if the "upgrade" from Arcane shield is added to the 70% Damage reduction then there's a hughe problem here, without taking in count the Armor itself from the mage.

An example:

If an aimed shot can do 1000 damage then the reduction will be for 70% that's 300 by aimed and if we take in count the armor then there's almost no damage.

And if we take in count the damage output by an endgame mage then isn't a surprise to see a mage killing an fully geared rogue/warrior

[yubaraj]

It was just a simplified example.

1000 damage (reduced to) 225 damage. Wew.


How?

Anyways, due to recent korruption fix , isn't warrior stack better than mage now?

[yubaraj]

Well in fact the arcane shield can absorb 55% by 4/5 (There's an upgrade were the description says " Now Arcane shield can absorb more damage" I am not sure if that upgrade can make the original "55%" more stronger) and the mastery adds 15% more to 55, that mean 70% Reduction.

And I am not taking in count the fact of the fast CD from shield ( There's around 9 seconds to use again the shield ), and if the "upgrade" from Arcane shield is added to the 70% Damage reduction then there's a hughe problem here, without taking in count the Armor itself from the mage.

An example:

If an aimed shot can do 1000 damage then the reduction will be for 70% that's 300 by aimed and if we take in count the armor then there's almost no damage.

And if we take in count the damage output by an endgame mage then isn't a surprise to see a mage killing an fully geared rogue/warrior

Are you loosing vs with mage?

[Breakingbadxx]

How?

Anyways, due to recent korruption fix , isn't warrior stack better than mage now?

1). Look at Vrooms explanation.

2). A tank stack has always been beatable with a class diverse team. A mage stack is currently impossible to beat without the identical setup or pure luck.

[Valkiryas]

Are you loosing vs with mage?

In a vs with a fully geared mage is almost imposible ( I killed lots of mages in 1v1 anyway ) but when mage stack it's a nightmare for any class

[Zeus]

thats the exact problem it has to be fixed wisely..
mages make no place for rogues in a clash but u have to remember that nerfing as breakingbad is suggesting simply will make rogues invincible at soloing yes it will balance clashes but it will again make rogues unbeatable in a 1 v 1

Then why not go with Energizeric's suggestion of diminishing return of heal? Tanks have the same thing because their heal applies to group.

[Plqgue]

Then why not go with Energizeric's suggestion of diminishing return of heal? Tanks have the same thing because their heal applies to group.
His idea was really good but I think that the diminishing effect should only apply to the team not the caster

[Vrazicak]

I would like the developers to bring back these suggestions and fixes they proposed.

Vroom pointed out:

Currently in PvP, healing and damage are scaled based on your level. At level 56 you deal 50% damage and heal for 50%. We believe this has overall resulted in better PvP battles. Thanks to all the posts from the community we've identified aspects of survivability which do not have any kind of reduction. These are Arcane Shield's Damage Reduction, the health increase from Juggernaut, and the length of invulnerability from Horn of Renew.

Here is our thought on why Damage Reduction not scaling becomes a problem. If I'm a Rogue (or any character) and use an attack which deals 1000 damage to a Sorcerer with Arcane Shield, that damage is reduced because Arcane Shield gives Damage Reduction. Let's say my Arcane Shield gives me 55% Damage Reduction. This means that 1000 damage becomes 450 damage. Now if you include the 50% damage decrease in place in PvP, this 1000 damage drops all the way to 225 damage. Having the damage decrease in PvP compounds the effectiveness of my Arcane Shield, in a way that players dealing damage can't keep up with.

The health increase of Juggernaut works similarly. Juggernaut increases your health by 25% of your armor, and with the Ignore Pain upgrade gives you 40% (or 65%) damage reduction while active. Let's say I receive 1000 health from Juggernaut (meaning I have 4000 armor). Normally this would mean I can take 1 more hit from that Rogue dealing 1000 damage. Taking 40% Damage Reduction into account, the Rogue's 1000 damage would be reduced to 600 damage, so I would be able to take 2 hits before losing my Juggernaut health. Now add in the PvP damage decrease, and the Rogue only deals 300 damage. Now a single use of Juggernaut means I can take 4 more hits from the Rogue.

Both of the given cases are further lowered by the natural armor the Sorcerer or Warrior has, further decreasing the amount of damage they receive. We want to address these abilities so that the scaling of survivability matches with the scaling of damage and healing.

Proposed Changes:
1) The damage reduction of Arcane Shield will scale with player level (in PvP only) at the same rate damage is scaled. At level 1 the reduction will remain 45% for uncharged and 55% for charged. At level 56 the damage reduction will be half that value, 22.5% for uncharged and 27.5% for charged. The health of the shield will not be adjusted as part of this change.
2) The amount of bonus health that Juggernaut grants will scale with player level (in PvP only) at the same rate damage is scaled. At level 1 Juggernaut will grant 17.5% health uncharged and 25% health charged. At level 56 Juggernaut will grant 8.75% health uncharged and 12.5% health charged. The Damage Reduction gained from Juggernaut will not be adjusted as part of this change.

This all makes sense so why was the fix for these not implemented?

Requesting a developer response.

- your friendly neighborhood Balanceboy.

while there was all those tests StS was doing neither they nerfed mage shield nor warrior juggernaut, and each class was looking even in statistics, so why change it now? Why do you want to play with game balance again? The game PvP was never more balanced at this very moment. And btw you're forgetting that mages CAN die using fully upgraded shield, warriors CAN'T die using fully upgraded juggernaut!

[Otahaanak]

Having spent the last few weeks in pvp as a close to max Mage (1 para, no eyes though, few Superb, Nobles and 1 exquisite jewel) the Blood Beach TDM matches seem pretty even. Sure, vs undergeared teams it's a wipe, but teamwork takes over during equally geared matches.

As Imbaaack said before, Rogues with speed set are nearly unkillable. I've seen plenty of rogues die quickly and plenty survive. Usually because they play well or there is good teamwork. No different for mages.

Wars are doing fine, and those with the Glint set plus Arc sword, even better.

The matches have been entertaining, especially when I'm on a class balanced team. That said, the second my shield goes down, I'm easy fodder for any rogue to pick off (or War to pull). So I have to be careful during that time.

Based on what I've seen, this proposal to nerf shield and Jug will put both classes at the mercy of Rogues. No doubt in my mind.

My .02



IGN: Cryformana, Drizzitty

[Breakingbadxx]

What is so hard for the mage community to understand?

Everyone is doing 50% less damage in PvP now. Yet the arcane shield STILL ABSORBS THE SAME AMOUNT OF DAMAGE IT ABSORBED BEFORE THE CHANGE, WHICH MEANS IT WAS ESSENTIALLY BUFFED BY THE CHANGE AND NOW ABSORBS 2X MORE DAMAGE THAN IT SHOULD.

VROOM HAS POINTED THIS OUT.

A unintended 'somewhat bug' benefitting a class (regardless of how) (just like the wildfire proc) is nevertheless subject to fixing.

From this point i'll be treating the fact that the arcane shield absorbs 2x more damage than it should as a BUG that needs fixing.

[Breakingbadxx]

This has now become a request for a bug fix.

A bug the developers themselves discovered.

[Vrazicak]

DUDE WHAT CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND
While they were doing those tests with damage nerfs in pvp jugg and arcane shield stayed absolutely same, and all classes were even said by STS, so why tf you gotta cry and bring in the imbalance again?

[Breakingbadxx]

DUDE WHAT CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND
While they were doing those tests with damage nerfs in pvp jugg and arcane shield stayed absolutely same, and all classes were even said by STS, so why tf you gotta cry and bring in the imbalance again?

The developers figured this one out mate.

[Breakingbadxx]

I should mention, I was prepared for all the insults and attempts at getting this thread locked due to drama from members of the mage community.

[Ireliaa]

I am so tired to fight for equal and fair pvp experience for boths sides in forums. This is not my job, this is the developer team's job, they should be aware of the issues and act acordingly

cleaerly as almost Every single rogue and some of the mages and warriors agree on the "dps" class rogue is currently useless in pvp, period.

[Vrazicak]

The developers figured this one out mate.

believe it or not, I'm a warrior, my mage is retired
I'm not supporting any class I'm just pointing at the freaken logic right here

[Breakingbadxx]

believe it or not, I'm a warrior, my mage is retired
I'm not supporting any class I'm just pointing at the freaken logic right here

And I'm pointing at a bug :)

Sadly, this fix may hurt the mage class but they will learn to get over it and develop new strategies.

Haven't warriors and rogues learnt to get over such?

*Rogue armor nerf
*Rogue damage nerf
*Rogue combat medic nerf
*Rogue aimed shot nerf
*Warriors elondrian bulwark nerf
*Warriors lvl 46 arcane sword nerf
*Warriors gear progression

Regarding these as 'bugs that were fixed' further supports me btw.

[yubaraj]

TBH nobody wants balance. Everyone wants to kill other class very easily.

And this global Nerf thing was about only damage and health regeneration as far as I know.

If you guys want to Nerf arcane shield by 50% then Nerf everything by 50% why exclude crit dodge health and other stats too. Don't forget about nekro damage reduction too plz.

Make it twink legends.

[Breakingbadxx]

TBH nobody wants balance. Everyone wants to kill other class very easily.

And this global Nerf thing was about only damage and health regeneration as far as I know.

If you guys want to Nerf arcane shield by 50% then Nerf everything by 50% why exclude crit dodge health and other stats too. Don't forget about nekro damage reduction too plz.

Make it twink legends.

Keeping damage reduction untouched while nerfing damage by 50%.

You're joking right?

[Oaheuzihar]

Doesn't the 50% dmg reduction for mage sheild halve all damage? Seems prety balanced to me since the developers said they were only halving health and damage.

For example if you get hit by 1k dmg when you had a sheild up, you would take 500 dmg (b4 pvp nerf)

So now if you get hit with 1k dmg its now 500 due to nerf and then 50% reduction from sheild gives it 250 dmg taken.

It seems like sheild is doing what is supposed to, why not buff rogues instead?

Is this correct or am i missing something here?

[Zeus]

Having spent the last few weeks in pvp as a close to max Mage (1 para, no eyes though, few Superb, Nobles and 1 exquisite jewel) the Blood Beach TDM matches seem pretty even. Sure, vs undergeared teams it's a wipe, but teamwork takes over during equally geared matches.

As Imbaaack said before, Rogues with speed set are nearly unkillable. I've seen plenty of rogues die quickly and plenty survive. Usually because they play well or there is good teamwork. No different for mages.

Wars are doing fine, and those with the Glint set plus Arc sword, even better.

The matches have been entertaining, especially when I'm on a class balanced team. That said, the second my shield goes down, I'm easy fodder for any rogue to pick off (or War to pull). So I have to be careful during that time.

Based on what I've seen, this proposal to nerf shield and Jug will put both classes at the mercy of Rogues. No doubt in my mind.

My .02



IGN: Cryformana, Drizzitty

Any class with speed set is hard to kill. If you hit a speed set rogue, he will die. If you hit a speed set sorcerer, he will die. However, in the times you don't, they are hard to kill.

If only rogues had speed set, Imbaaaack's statement would make sense. However, this is not the case. All classes have speed set and all of them are deadly when they use it.

That still doesn't render the fact rogues do not have a place in team based PvP if warrior and sorcerer stacks are present invalid. Also, sorcerers have built in speed debuffs in their skills that render a speed set rogue useless. You land that one skill and a speed set rogue is suddenly pure food. The same goes with any other class.

In fact, I would argue that a speed set sorcerer is more deadly than a speed set rogue. The reason being it is impossible to speed debuff a sorcerer with shield. So, a sorcerer can debuff other's speed set and render it useless with skills like ice whilst still keeping the speed themselves.

[Breakingbadxx]

Doesn't the 50% dmg reduction for mage sheild halve all damage? Seems prety balanced to me since the developers said they were only halving health and damage.

For example if you get hit by 1k dmg when you had a sheild up, you would take 500 dmg (b4 pvp nerf)

So now if you get hit with 1k dmg its now 500 due to nerf and then 50% reduction from sheild gives it 250 dmg taken.

It seems like sheild is doing what is supposed to, why not buff rogues instead?

Is this correct or am i missing something here?

Damage reduction should be reduced alongside damage. Its only logical.

[Plqgue]

This has now become a request for a bug fix.

A bug the developers themselves discovered.

Then I think your jugg should also be reverted back to what it was

[Niixed]

I would like the developers to bring back these suggestions and fixes they proposed.

Vroom pointed out:

Currently in PvP, healing and damage are scaled based on your level. At level 56 you deal 50% damage and heal for 50%. We believe this has overall resulted in better PvP battles. Thanks to all the posts from the community we've identified aspects of survivability which do not have any kind of reduction. These are Arcane Shield's Damage Reduction, the health increase from Juggernaut, and the length of invulnerability from Horn of Renew.

Here is our thought on why Damage Reduction not scaling becomes a problem. If I'm a Rogue (or any character) and use an attack which deals 1000 damage to a Sorcerer with Arcane Shield, that damage is reduced because Arcane Shield gives Damage Reduction. Let's say my Arcane Shield gives me 55% Damage Reduction. This means that 1000 damage becomes 450 damage. Now if you include the 50% damage decrease in place in PvP, this 1000 damage drops all the way to 225 damage. Having the damage decrease in PvP compounds the effectiveness of my Arcane Shield, in a way that players dealing damage can't keep up with.

The health increase of Juggernaut works similarly. Juggernaut increases your health by 25% of your armor, and with the Ignore Pain upgrade gives you 40% (or 65%) damage reduction while active. Let's say I receive 1000 health from Juggernaut (meaning I have 4000 armor). Normally this would mean I can take 1 more hit from that Rogue dealing 1000 damage. Taking 40% Damage Reduction into account, the Rogue's 1000 damage would be reduced to 600 damage, so I would be able to take 2 hits before losing my Juggernaut health. Now add in the PvP damage decrease, and the Rogue only deals 300 damage. Now a single use of Juggernaut means I can take 4 more hits from the Rogue.

Both of the given cases are further lowered by the natural armor the Sorcerer or Warrior has, further decreasing the amount of damage they receive. We want to address these abilities so that the scaling of survivability matches with the scaling of damage and healing.

Proposed Changes:
1) The damage reduction of Arcane Shield will scale with player level (in PvP only) at the same rate damage is scaled. At level 1 the reduction will remain 45% for uncharged and 55% for charged. At level 56 the damage reduction will be half that value, 22.5% for uncharged and 27.5% for charged. The health of the shield will not be adjusted as part of this change.
2) The amount of bonus health that Juggernaut grants will scale with player level (in PvP only) at the same rate damage is scaled. At level 1 Juggernaut will grant 17.5% health uncharged and 25% health charged. At level 56 Juggernaut will grant 8.75% health uncharged and 12.5% health charged. The Damage Reduction gained from Juggernaut will not be adjusted as part of this change.

This all makes sense so why was the fix for these not implemented?

Requesting a developer response.

- your friendly neighborhood Balanceboy.

The reason 7/21 proposed change were shelved is very simple: the idea of nerfing creates a massive backlash and significant player anger. Nerfing should be a last resort, not the first option. These particular proposed changes I strongly disagree with because they the benefit reduction is so severe. It also makes little sense because, after a few expansions, the damage reduction of shield/jugg would scale to almost nothing. It's very counter intuitive.

[Plqgue]

And I'm pointing at a bug :)

Sadly, this fix may hurt the mage class but they will learn to get over it and develop new strategies.

Haven't warriors and rogues learnt to get over such?

*Rogue armor nerf
*Rogue damage nerf
*Rogue combat medic nerf
*Rogue aimed shot nerf
*Warriors elondrian bulwark nerf
*Warriors lvl 46 arcane sword nerf
*Warriors gear progression

Regarding these as 'bugs that were fixed' further supports me btw.

If rogues had learned to get around their armor nerfs these threads wouldn't be happening weekly also as you stated half of those are fixes not nerfs

[Breakingbadxx]

Then I think your jugg should also be reverted back to what it was

The juggernaut 'second wind' was never intended to be broken by anything when active.

What are you getting at?

[Breakingbadxx]

If rogues had learned to get around their armor nerfs these threads wouldn't be happening weekly also as you stated half of those are fixes not nerfs

Yes, just like the fix the developers highlighted to reduce arcane shields damage reduction by 50%.

[Breakingbadxx]

The reason 7/21 proposed change were shelved is very simple: the idea of nerfing creates a massive backlash and significant player anger. Nerfing should be a last resort, not the first option. These particular proposed changes I strongly disagree with because they the benefit reduction is so severe. It also makes little sense because, after a few expansions, the damage reduction of shield/jugg would scale to almost nothing. It's very counter intuitive.

I disagree, there is too much of a genuine explanation put forward by Vroom for shelving to be appropriate.

[Breakingbadxx]

This is trolling, you're trying to pick a fight.

In what way? Enlighten me.

[Plqgue]

In what way? Enlighten me.

You posted one actual nerf and six fixes to compare to actually nerfing an entire class

[Breakingbadxx]

You posted one actual nerf and six fixes to compare to actually nerfing an entire class

If you deem them fixes, I won't disagree with you.

They will be the same fixes as reducing the current arcane shields damage reduction by 50%.

[Plqgue]

If you deem them fixes, I won't disagree with you.

They will be the same fixes as reducing the current arcane shields damage reduction by 50%.

How is that a fix ? Did any of your skills or rogues get Nerfed by 50% because of a global damage nerf?

[Breakingbadxx]

How is that a fix ? Did any of your skills or rogues get Nerfed by 50% because of a global damage nerf?

All classes received the 50% damage and healing nerf.

Its only logical to reduce damage reduction by 50% when reducing damage by 50% or problems arise. Namely with classes without significant damage reduction. You have been active in all balance related threads, you should be able to put the pieces together now.

[Anyona]

It was just a simplified example.

It still shows a ridiculous amount of damage reduction though.

1000 damage (reduced to) 225 damage. Wew.

This is actually when NOT TAKING PLAYER ARMOR INTO ACCOUNT. The damage is reduced even further when armor is accounted for.

No wonder we stack mages.

Clearly needs fixing.

What exactly needs fixing? If you use aimed shot damage without any damage reduction taken into account you're looking at 10,000 damage on a crit. Then with all damage reduction taken into consideration, you're looking at approximately 2,250 damage. When the shield only absorbs around 4,000-5,000 damage, no wonder why it's breaking so easily.

Rather than nerfing the other classes, you should be writing a thread on how devs can improve the faults of rogues because clearly they're the problem, not mages.

[Oaheuzihar]

Damage reduction should be reduced alongside damage. Its only logical.

It seems like i can't understand this.

If you take away a % of damage it has equal impact regardless of the actual damage being dealt then reduced, right?

Can you help me out here? I think im missing something here.

[Safiras]

I'm not completely certain, but I doubt it's the percentage of the damage reduction that maybe should be addressed, but the total amount of damage that can be absorbed by the shield before it breaks (I'm just addressing Breakingbad's point here, not saying I agree with it). The damage reduction is not an issue to me, because it's a percentage value. The shield will absorb less damage per hit simply because we hit for less damage than before due to the global damage nerf. Does that sound logical?

Anyway, going by the original logic of the proposed nerf, if you propose that the damage reduction of mage shield be reduced by half at endgame the same way damage got reduced by half, why not then apply the same principle to the damage reduction of Juggernaut?

My interpretation of the global damage nerf, from playing through the testing period when all classes had their full damage in PvP, is that at full power all classes ESPECIALLY rogues deal too much damage for our damage reduction and absorption capabilities to handle. After the damage nerf PvP became slower and more tactical but rogues suffere more because our primary capability became handicapped and we did not have a good defensive skill to lean on like the other two classes. As a result mages handled the damage nerf better than rogues.

Back to the issue of nerfing mage shield. It is not a fair suggestion to push through a nerf of mage shield armor reduction because then tanks should get an equal nerf on their primary defensive skill (juggernaut). If you want the mage shield to breal faster, make juggernaut easier to break too. The same logic must apply across the board, like what you said

[Oaheuzihar]

I'm not completely certain, but I doubt it's the percentage of the damage reduction that maybe should be addressed, but the total amount of damage that can be absorbed by the shield before it breaks (I'm just addressing Breakingbad's point here, not saying I agree with it). The damage reduction is not an issue to me, because it's a percentage value. The shield will absorb less damage per hit simply because we hit for less damage than before due to the global damage nerf. Does that sound logical?

Anyway, going by the original logic of the proposed nerf, if you propose that the damage reduction of mage shield be reduced by half at endgame the same way damage got reduced by half, why not then apply the same principle to the damage reduction of Juggernaut?

My interpretation of the global damage nerf, from playing through the testing period when all classes had their full damage in PvP, is that at full power all classes ESPECIALLY rogues deal too much damage for our damage reduction and absorption capabilities to handle. After the damage nerf PvP became slower and more tactical but rogues suffere more because our primary capability became handicapped and we did not have a good defensive skill to lean on like the other two classes. As a result mages handled the damage nerf better than rogues.

Back to the issue of nerfing mage shield. It is not a fair suggestion to push through a nerf of mage shield armor reduction because then tanks should get an equal nerf on their primary defensive skill (juggernaut). If you want the mage shield to breal faster, make juggernaut easier to break too. The same logic must apply across the board, like what you said

Thanks for that first paragraph. I couldn't seem to word it correctly. I don't see the problem with the arcane shield damage reduction because it is a percent and not a flat value. IMO, rogues need a small damage buff because as long as rogues don't break my shield i will utterly trash them with stuns.

[konafez]

Wow...I can see I was proven right...

Sts opens for business at 8:00 am CST ..I expect this thread to be locked shortly after that...

Well played ..*slow claps* ...

[Safiras]

By the way, just making it clear (because I think I didn't in my previous post) that I am not in favor of the nerf to the mage shield damage reduction or to the Juggernaut skill (I was using it as an example of how the principle of nerfing skills as suggested by the OP should be applied across the board, and thus not just to mage shield).

The shield gives mages their relevance in PvP. Without that capability to absorb damage for a limited period of time they're just walking blue pinatas. What I want is for rogues to compete with both tanks and mages in a clash situation for equal importance and relevance, which is what is not the case currently because we die slightly too easily and do not pose currently enough of a threat to a team of jugged tanks and shielded mages. I am in favor of the devs' gradual and careful approach to buffing rogues till a more competitive situation is reached. A nerf to mage shield damage reduction of that magnitude would be too drastic and alter PvP balance to an unreasonable degree.

[Standingstill]

I have to put in my 2 cents because as someone who plays all classes sometimes i dont think dps class understand. That there is supposed to be a difference in the attributes each class have. Warriors are supposed to be hard to kill. Dps classes should die alot because they kill alot took me under 2 months to get 10k kills on rogue. Been at it 8-9 months now on tank and only have 4.5k. For those of u that are calling for jugg nerf lets remember that the cool down time of jugg is twice that of the shield. All u have to do is hit a tank when their skills are down and they die. stay away from proc run if u have to then nuke when skills are down. I kill lots of wars on my rogue because i know how to read their skills. Also with the heal debuff rogues can overpower the regen on heal. That mixed with warriors worst nightmare in pvp korruption basically nulls their main attributes. Without heal regen on jugg warriors die fast. 3 mages 3 korrs one set tank is pretty much impossible to beat unless like someone else said, u have the same set up. Rogues still have a place with kor present because they can pick off tanks like they are paper. Korruption sucks for rogues too cuz it will make u manaless pretty fast. the class that is least affected by kor is mage so maybe if they complain too much about shield debuff lets make a pet next event that nulls shield and aimed crit buff while ur in pool. Would be equivalent to what korruption does to wars. Or here is another one increase cd time of shield. Lol j/k i know that would be excessive but i hope u get my point to stop talking about war debuff that isnt the issue here haha.

[Safiras]

I have to put in my 2 cents because as someone who plays all classes sometimes i dont think dps class understand. That there is supposed to be a difference in the attributes each class have. Warriors are supposed to be hard to kill. Dps classes should die alot because they kill alot took me under 2 months to get 10k kills on rogue. Been at it 8-9 months now on tank and only have 4.5k. For those of u that are calling for jugg nerf lets remember that the cool down time of jugg is twice that of the shield. All u have to do is hit a tank when their skills are down and they die. stay away from proc run if u have to then nuke when skills are down. I kill lots of wars on my rogue because i know how to read their skills. Also with the heal debuff rogues can overpower the regen on heal. That mixed with warriors worst nightmare in pvp korruption basically nulls their main attributes. Without heal regen on jugg warriors die fast. 3 mages 3 korrs one set tank is pretty much impossible to beat unless like someone else said, u have the same set up. Rogues still have a place with kor present because they can pick off tanks like they are paper. Korruption sucks for rogues too cuz it will make u manaless pretty fast. the class that is least affected by kor is mage so maybe if they complain too much about shield debuff lets make a pet next event that nulls shield and aimed crit buff while ur in pool. Would be equivalent to what korruption does to wars. Or here is another one increase cd time of shield. Lol j/k i know that would be excessive but i hope u get my point to stop talking about war debuff that isnt the issue here haha.

The Korruption debuff on warrior Juggernaut heal has been fixed.

[intrepd]

Our opinions only create drama because they go against what YOU want...if you can't handle constructive criticism you shouldn't be on a forum

Before the global nerf wasn't the damage like , example a rogue hit a mage with shield 1k but its reduced to lets say 450 since its 55% Reduce? Now its reduced by another 50 after the global nerf so its 225 which means that its a buff for mages no? Please correct me if im wrong

[Breakingbadxx]

What exactly needs fixing? If you use aimed shot damage without any damage reduction taken into account you're looking at 10,000 damage on a crit. Then with all damage reduction taken into consideration, you're looking at approximately 2,250 damage. When the shield only absorbs around 4,000-5,000 damage, no wonder why it's breaking so easily.

Rather than nerfing the other classes, you should be writing a thread on how devs can improve the faults of rogues because clearly they're the problem, not mages.

The developers have stated the rogue class will remain glass. I see no reason to invest my time there.

[Breakingbadxx]

It seems like i can't understand this.

If you take away a % of damage it has equal impact regardless of the actual damage being dealt then reduced, right?

Can you help me out here? I think im missing something here.

Read the post I borrowed from Vroom.

[Breakingbadxx]

I'm not completely certain, but I doubt it's the percentage of the damage reduction that maybe should be addressed, but the total amount of damage that can be absorbed by the shield before it breaks (I'm just addressing Breakingbad's point here, not saying I agree with it). The damage reduction is not an issue to me, because it's a percentage value. The shield will absorb less damage per hit simply because we hit for less damage than before due to the global damage nerf. Does that sound logical?

Anyway, going by the original logic of the proposed nerf, if you propose that the damage reduction of mage shield be reduced by half at endgame the same way damage got reduced by half, why not then apply the same principle to the damage reduction of Juggernaut?

My interpretation of the global damage nerf, from playing through the testing period when all classes had their full damage in PvP, is that at full power all classes ESPECIALLY rogues deal too much damage for our damage reduction and absorption capabilities to handle. After the damage nerf PvP became slower and more tactical but rogues suffere more because our primary capability became handicapped and we did not have a good defensive skill to lean on like the other two classes. As a result mages handled the damage nerf better than rogues.

Back to the issue of nerfing mage shield. It is not a fair suggestion to push through a nerf of mage shield armor reduction because then tanks should get an equal nerf on their primary defensive skill (juggernaut). If you want the mage shield to breal faster, make juggernaut easier to break too. The same logic must apply across the board, like what you said

Ok, let's put the class purpose cards on the table.

Mages were never intended to be semi-tanks with a lot more damage just as we warriors were never meant to be "semi-rogues with a lot more HP".

Making juggernaut easier to break once again defeats the purpose of a tank.

Mages aren't tanks. This needs to be made clear.

[Breakingbadxx]

Before the global nerf wasn't the damage like , example a rogue hit a mage with shield 1k but its reduced to lets say 450 since its 55% Reduce? Now its reduced by another 50 after the global nerf so its 225 which means that its a buff for mages no? Please correct me if im wrong

Read the post I borrowed from Vroom. It was a buff.

[Breakingbadxx]

I think the mage community has been tanky for so long that they have forgotten how to play their class in ways that don't include using tankiness.

I'll state this once again, mages aren't tanks.

Tanky rogues got an armor reduction, why should tanky mages be spared?

[Anyona]

The developers have stated the rogue class will remain glass. I see no reason to invest my time there.

I said write a thread on how they can "improve the faults" not how to make them mages.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Breakingbadxx]

Have you ever played a mage?


Mages really aren't all that tanky as you pan them out to be...

Let me add some mage stats:
*6,400 health
*1,900 armor
*1,300 damage
*Instant full health heal + significant dot heal for a few seconds.
*Ability to rotate between a 70% damage reduction shield and a 40% damage reduction shield at will.
*2 seconds of invulnerability.

A shield with a 15 second duration and 27 seconds cooldown means a 12 second downtime which a 8 second nekro shield kindly reduces to a 4 second downtime. 4 seconds of no shields is compensated by a heal that almost acts as an extra shield.

Juggernaut is incomparable due to its 15 seconds duration and 40 second cooldown (with the mastery). That's a 25 downtime. What do we rotate here and for 25 seconds? We don't, we just die after those 15 seconds.

Mages appear to be much too tanky in terms of a dps or support class.

Warriors are tanks.

Rogues are dps.

What is the purpose of the mage class exactly? To be warriors with more damage?

[intrepd]

Read the post I borrowed from Vroom. It was a buff.

yes i get it, if there was no global nerf then rogues would hit shield lets say 450 out of 1000 because of shield absorb but now with the nerf it does around 225, i agree with you that mages shield is too much since the global nerf but i don't think this will make everyone happy, what i think would help is giving rogues a little damage reduction, lets say 25% damage reduction in Razors? i know that they should be cannon but too much cannon gonna break the glass. anyways there is already 10% in razors so why not just make it 25% to stop the buff/nerf threads?
please tell me how this idea will ruin the "Rock paper scissors" which is happening right now as i dont see anything wrong with it, but using razors in clashes instead of nox will mean rogues will hit less by survive a bit more, and in vs its going to be the same since i doubt rogues will replace nox with razors.

[Breakingbadxx]

yes i get it, if there was no global nerf then rogues would hit shield lets say 450 out of 1000 because of shield absorb but now with the nerf it does around 225, i agree with you that mages shield is too much since the global nerf but i don't think this will make everyone happy, what i think would help is giving rogues a little damage reduction, lets say 25% damage reduction in Razors? i know that they should be cannon but too much cannon gonna break the glass. anyways there is already 10% in razors so why not just make it 25% to stop the buff/nerf threads?
please tell me how this idea will ruin the "Rock paper scissors" which is happening right now as i dont see anything wrong with it, but using razors in clashes instead of nox will mean rogues will hit less by survive a bit more, and in vs its going to be the same since i doubt rogues will replace nox with razors.

Sadly, you can't please everyone when working in the name of balance.

You may look back at all the cases I highlighted earlier of the warrior and rogue class being nerfed in the name of balance. We moved on. Why should the mage class be spared?

I think its time we stop shelving and dodging issues concerning the mage class.

Such issues concerning rogues and warriors were never shelved or dodged. They were acted on quickly and in most cases without a discussion.

We all buy platinum and contribute to the game. Why should the mage class (only 1 of all 3 class) specifically be spared of any changes to bring balance?

[intrepd]

Sadly, you can't please everyone when working in the name of balance.

You may look back at all the cases I highlighted earlier of the warrior and rogue class being nerfed in the name of balance. We moved on. Why should the mage class be spared?

I think its time we stop shelving and dodging issues concerning the mage class.

Such issues concerning rogues and warriors were never shelved or dodged. They were acted on quickly and in most cases without a discussion.

i get you, its true that mages does need a armor reduction shield to be halved, but i doubt this will even happen, instead i suggest just buffing rogues? but i personally think that even buffing rogues will make them useable in clashes but not any better than stacking mages, stacking mages.
better leave the decision to STS im fine with either buffing rogues or nerfing shield.

[Breakingbadxx]

i get you, its true that mages does need a armor reduction shield to be halved, but i doubt this will even happen, instead i suggest just buffing rogues? but i personally think that even buffing rogues will make them useable in clashes but not any better than stacking mages, stacking mages.
better leave the decision to STS im fine with either buffing rogues or nerfing shield.

The arcane shields damage reduction is a issue identified by the developers. They had their reasons for bringing it up and explained their reasoning very well and accurately. Their reasons were valid and should have been acted upon.

Thank you for your understanding btw.

[yubaraj]

You breakingbad,

Maybe it seems like you are getting rekt by mages in vs. Don't forget about rock scissor paper thing. And plz don't assume that mage are tanks. Assumption and reality is two different things.

And for whole community,

ROGUES DAMAGE GOT BUFFED COMPARED TO WARRIOR AND MAGES AFTER GLOBAL NERF. AS ROGUES WERE NERFED BY 10% DMG AND FURTHER RESTRICTION OF GETTING HAPPINESS DAMAGE BONUS OF PET BEFORE GLOBAL NERF IN PVP. NOW ROGUES ARE GETTING 25% MORE DAMAGE IF THEY USE NEKRO HAPPINESS.

and these NERF threads should be stopped. It's annoying.

[Breakingbadxx]

You breakingbad,

Maybe it seems like you are getting rekt by mages in vs. Don't forget about rock scissor paper thing. And plz don't assume that mage are tanks. Assumption and reality is two different things.

And for whole community,

ROGUES DAMAGE GOT BUFFED COMPARED TO WARRIOR AND MAGES AFTER GLOBAL NERF. AS ROGUES WERE NERFED BY 10% DMG AND FURTHER RESTRICTION OF GETTING HAPPINESS DAMAGE BONUS OF PET BEFORE GLOBAL NERF IN PVP. NOW ROGUES ARE GETTING 25% MORE DAMAGE IF THEY USE NEKRO HAPPINESS.

and these NERF threads should be stopped. It's annoying.
I win my share of vs against mages.

Am I right in assuming any threads nerfing warriors or rogues are not annoying?

Maybe we should bring up all the threads on changes which occured in the name of balance that negatively affected the warrior and rogue class, to analyse how supportive the mage community was in all of them?

I remember a huge amount of the mage community calling for the nerf of the elondrian bulwark weapon. And what was the result of such?

However, I would rather that drama didn't emerge from the result of that venture.

The mage class has remained untouched for years and have only ever received buffs, to the point of becoming what they are today.

Its also biased for the community of a class that has only ever been buffed to suggest shutting down all requests for balance by classes that have been nerfed on numerous occasions.

I don't think my request is unjust.

[Robhawk]

Have you ever played a mage?

Mages really aren't all that tanky as you pan them out to be...

This is obviously because you are no good mage, the good ones are tanky! There are several good mages in Arcane Legends, ask them how to play!

[Safiras]

Let me add some mage stats:
*6,400 health
*1,900 armor
*1,300 damage
*Instant full health heal + significant dot heal for a few seconds.
*Ability to rotate between a 70% damage reduction shield and a 40% damage reduction shield at will.
*2 seconds of invulnerability.

A shield with a 15 second duration and 27 seconds cooldown means a 12 second downtime which a 8 second nekro shield kindly reduces to a 4 second downtime. 4 seconds of no shields is compensated by a heal that almost acts as an extra shield.

Juggernaut is incomparable due to its 15 seconds duration and 40 second cooldown (with the mastery). That's a 25 downtime. What do we rotate here and for 25 seconds? We don't, we just die after those 15 seconds.

Mages appear to be much too tanky in terms of a dps or support class.

Warriors are tanks.

Rogues are dps.

What is the purpose of the mage class exactly? To be warriors with more damage?

You're comparing apples to oranges. There is no fair comparison between one skill of a class vs another. I will list the following points:

1.Juggernaut has an extremely long cooldown that is true. But you also neglect to mention that, during the period that the skill is in effect, a tank with enough HP and armor will not die no matter how much damage is thrown at him. In contrast a mage shield does not grant a self-heal like Juggernaut, and after the first 2 seconds of invulnerability, a mage can die.

2. You speak of Nekro shield as an additional shield. Tanks can also utilize Nekro for its damage reduction and stun immunity. Also factor in the Horn of Renew bubble which gives 2 seconds of invulnerability and you have a total of 27 seconds of some form of shield. True, there is still a 13 second (with jugg mastery) window that a tank has truly little defence against attacks. But the heal over time of HoR can be timed to cover that period of vulnerability, and because a tank has so much HP and armor, it still takes some effort to bring a good tank down. Lastly, A tank with reasonable gear should have enough damage to force a mage/rogue to heal/shield and disrupt their attack cycle. We are not even talking about a clash which typically has two tanks covering each other such that the tank in their window of vulnerability is not always open to attack. In summary, what I'm trying to illustrate is that a tank is still hard to kill despite an apparently large window of vulnerability.

3. A tank has inherent high damage absorption capability compared to a mage due to the huge difference in armor. The stats you mentioned in your post above are that of a mage who has geared him/herself to the teeth with the latest gear and possibly munch mouth happiness bonus. You do not find every other mage in PvP running around with those stats. The average mage has 1.6k to 1.7k armor because they sacrifice armor and sometimes damage for higher crit (imbued/slaterock gear). These mages are extremely squishy after their shield expires, and probably form the majority of mages who claim that they get one-hit by rogues. However that is not the point I am trying to make. The point is that after taking into account the damage reduction of mage shield and tank juggernaut, a tank in the end still has much higher capacity to take damage. A mage in that reapect cannot replace a tank.

4. I have come to see a mage as ideally being an intermediate between a tank and a rogue: to be able to be less glass than a rogue as they can rely on their shield to forestall impending death to give them a brief chance to fight back or find cover, but not as cannon in that their lightning will never hit as hard as aimed shot. Nerfing their shield so much will bring them down to a survivability almost equal to that of rogues even with shield on, and I do not think that should be the case.

[Safiras]

@Breakingbad, my intention is currently to caution against pushing for drastic buffs/nerfs that would cause an extreme shift in the balance between the classes. I see that you are trying to make a reasoned discussion regarding possible changes to improve PvP balance, but we have seen that large-scale changes have led to uncomfortable shifts in gameplay for different classes at different stages. I am not prepared to call the current version of mage shield bugged, more like it might require small tweaks like aimed shot has had. But we will see later if it happens.

Also, saying that the devs have identified a potential problem with a class and thus we need to take it seriously is not a good reason to say this is something that is a genuine issue. In the end the devs are players like you and me, and I have doubts as to how much they play the game that they have a good enough idea to critically evaluate the deficiencies of each skill of each class. That is why they rely alot on our feedback to help set things right. But if we cannot start a discussion without people cutting in with abrasive and provocative remarks, then no one will take our words seriously and we will end up with the devs deciding things on their own, and no one will get the balance that we as a community are seeking.

[Oaheuzihar]

Let me add some mage stats:
*6,400 health
*1,900 armor
*1,300 damage
*Instant full health heal + significant dot heal for a few seconds.
*Ability to rotate between a 70% damage reduction shield and a 40% damage reduction shield at will.
*2 seconds of invulnerability.

A shield with a 15 second duration and 27 seconds cooldown means a 12 second downtime which a 8 second nekro shield kindly reduces to a 4 second downtime. 4 seconds of no shields is compensated by a heal that almost acts as an extra shield.

Juggernaut is incomparable due to its 15 seconds duration and 40 second cooldown (with the mastery). That's a 25 downtime. What do we rotate here and for 25 seconds? We don't, we just die after those 15 seconds.

Mages appear to be much too tanky in terms of a dps or support class.

Warriors are tanks.

Rogues are dps.

What is the purpose of the mage class exactly? To be warriors with more damage?

Actually, in pvp my lifegiver only heals about 40% of my total hp. That's a lot, but definitely manageable by my opponents.

[Breakingbadxx]

You're comparing apples to oranges. There is no fair comparison between one skill of a class vs another. I will list the following points:

1.Juggernaut has an extremely long cooldown that is true. But you also neglect to mention that, during the period that the skill is in effect, a tank with enough HP and armor will not die no matter how much damage is thrown at him. In contrast a mage shield does not grant a self-heal like Juggernaut, and after the first 2 seconds of invulnerability, a mage can die.

2. You speak of Nekro shield as an additional shield. Tanks can also utilize Nekro for its damage reduction and stun immunity. Also factor in the Horn of Renew bubble which gives 2 seconds of invulnerability and you have a total of 27 seconds of some form of shield. True, there is still a 13 second (with jugg mastery) window that a tank has truly little defence against attacks. But the heal over time of HoR can be timed to cover that period of vulnerability, and because a tank has so much HP and armor, it still takes some effort to bring a good tank down. Lastly, A tank with reasonable gear should have enough damage to force a mage/rogue to heal/shield and disrupt their attack cycle. We are not even talking about a clash which typically has two tanks covering each other such that the tank in their window of vulnerability is not always open to attack. In summary, what I'm trying to illustrate is that a tank is still hard to kill despite an apparently large window of vulnerability.

3. A tank has inherent high damage absorption capability compared to a mage due to the huge difference in armor. The stats you mentioned in your post above are that of a mage who has geared him/herself to the teeth with the latest gear and possibly munch mouth happiness bonus. You do not find every other mage in PvP running around with those stats. The average mage has 1.6k to 1.7k armor because they sacrifice armor and sometimes damage for higher crit (imbued/slaterock gear). These mages are extremely squishy after their shield expires, and probably form the majority of mages who claim that they get one-hit by rogues. However that is not the point I am trying to make. The point is that after taking into account the damage reduction of mage shield and tank juggernaut, a tank in the end still has much higher capacity to take damage. A mage in that reapect cannot replace a tank.

4. I have come to see a mage as ideally being an intermediate between a tank and a rogue: to be able to be less glass than a rogue as they can rely on their shield to forestall impending death to give them a brief chance to fight back or find cover, but not as cannon in that their lightning will never hit as hard as aimed shot. Nerfing their shield so much will bring them down to a survivability almost equal to that of rogues even with shield on, and I do not think that should be the case.

1). Looking at the mage class from a 1v1 perspective will not help us see the bigger picture. Mages are tanky enough to survive for prolonged periods, even after the 2 seconds of invulnerability has expired.

2). No. 2 refers to the presence of more than 1 tank so let's speak of the presence of more than 1 mage.

3). These stats have become all to common and stating that a select few own such stats doesn't help the issue in any way. As an example, If one person in game had broken stats. Saying that the possibility of meeting them is e.g. 0.001% doesn't justify not implementing a fix. The fact is they exist.

4). Lets not leave out their ability of high chance to stun and the fact that these stuns can last for excessive periods of time regardless of the stun immunity system. From what I remember, the mage ability to stun made up for their base survival stats being just under that of rogues. Does tankiness and the ability of high chance to stun for excessive periods sounds right to you?

[Breakingbadxx]

That isn't true, give this game enough time and every new weapon cycle there should be enough game balance.

Warrior and rogue classes have been balanced, because they needed to be balanced. Seems to me mages aren't dodging anything but rather trying to make sure they don't get nerfed to a point where they can't PvP and become the mana providers like the Bad Old Days.

There is so much hypocrisy in that post, mages have been asking for a PvP balance for more seasons than months it took to fix rogue and warrior "issues".

last part where you say "we all buy platinum and contribute to the game? what do you think exactly that means? are you feeling entitled to something because you buy plat? that statement is just too out of the blue. Blue just reminded me are you saying Nott's don't buy plat?

If any developers are reading I would like to kindly remind them they have a forums for a reason, it shows what the community thinks of people like robhawk and what kind of mentality he has. They should have a closer look at previous posts by and at him before taking anything he says into consideration.




1. instant full health? maybe last expansion nott this expansion.

2. At will? no, any decent rogue can break an equal geared mages shield ezpz

3. Last season when I had green and no 200 ms delay I had impeccable shield rotation and was always under shield unless it broke, I haven't PvPed much this season(when I did I had PvE gear and hence was wearing assault gear) but my shield broke every now and then. It was the same last season in a few of your previous posts you've mentioned mages have enjoyed 2 seasons of being OP, it hasn't even been one season, we only got buffs middle of last year and this season hasn't even ended.

I would like to remind you of 36 expansion where mages where the "food class", and they remained the food class till the shield was fixed(remember nekro shield being better than ours? If you don't that was a time on forums when everyone called mages the "pet class") and heal over time for our shield was fixed(this after 4 seasons of getting bullied and pudgered by warriors and rogues alike).

4. warriors have VB, HoR, juff, feeble and even a stun. They deal more damage than mages do they nott? Should tanks be doing that?


This is the only thing you've said so far that I can agree with.

Again IMHO nerfing mages is going to provide any balance in PvP, the right direction for balance is in new pets and weapons.

1). Until we are assured that class balance will come via gear, I'm not buying it.

2). Justifying ignoring balance by making one class OP one season and another OP the other season isn't appropriate.

3). Pets and weapons for balance are just targets for further nerfing e.g. the lvl 46 arcane sword was meant to compensate for the hardships warriors had of gaining PvP kills.

It got nerfed.

4). Mages have always been a useful class since the beginning of PvP. I think that community have forgotten that their role is not to be a tank or rogue when they feel like it.

*Many mages had 30,000+ PvP kills along side rogues since the beginning of PvP. We have mages with over 60,000+ PvP kills now topping the leaderboards. Is it that they learnt to play their class properly? Because frankly, they were already competing with rogues before the mage class received the shield or heal buff.

You don't see tanks complaining about not getting kills in PvP because we know our role. Heck some even dummy farm to get kills due to this.

We know our role. What is the role of the mage class? To be a tank? To be a rogue? I'm actually confused. Please, enlighten me.

5). Platinum purchase keeps this game running. If we are spending money on platinum for our desired class, we would rather not be told to "make the new OP class and stop crying" and invest in that instead after spending so much.

Money doesn't come easy.

[Robhawk]

said the one who started playing warrior because he was soooooooo*insert a mountain of o's* at mage that he had to make a warrior!

One reason why i switched from mage to warrior is connection problems. There is a thread you can see the problem: http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?353891-connection-advantage-in-duel-arena

My mage is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo bad that he only has around 38000 tdm kills. You can have a look in leaderboard, its the pvp section where you don't appear. :smiley_simmons:



Also would like to point I never said that Im having trouble playing a mage. There are several nice people in the world you should try being one too!

Looks like your own medicine doesn't taste that good eh? You should start with yourself before asking other people to be a nice person!

[Fredystern]

Arcane shield absorbing 2x more damage than it should be is not balance.

The lava proc of the lvl 46 arcane sword has already been nerfed in damage and stun btw.

So you mean our shield was OP when absorb 55% ?
So you think 1 aim that could instantly kill a mage isnt OP?
You think a team with full 46 arc sword staying on a place spamming lava and pull us to there isnt OP?
Yes only mage was OP in 15 second in defend or should i say 8 second when vs a rogue no no not 8 second lets say 2combo will break mage shield and need 1 combo more to kill a mage :/ MAGE ARE OP!!!!

If you want to nerf our shield than nerf nekro AA so we can do our job as stunner :/

[Breakingbadxx]

On the case of the mage class, I wouldn't mind a 35% reduction in the amount of damage the arcane shield absorbs as opposed to a 50% reduction.

However the reduction amount. It needs to be reduced.

[Dizzywizzie]

Keep in mind it is an ARCANE shield. Not just mythic or legendary no arcane

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[Breakingbadxx]

Keep in mind it is an ARCANE shield. Not just mythic or legendary no arcane

Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-I9505 met Tapatalk
Definition of juggernaut:

A huge, powerful and overwhelming force.

However the skill doesn't increase damage or make warriors semi-rogues for 15 seconds.

[Breakingbadxx]

Juggernaut is a "metaphorical force regarded as mercilessly destructive and unstoppable".

So basically just because warriors have a skill named juggernaut they should be unstoppable?

[As an Indian myself I would like to point out it's one of the many names of one of the main deities in Hindu religion and it doesn't really mean what the figurative term it has come to be known as]

If skills worked as they were named, Shadow pierce skill would be left redundant, let's nott take things literally? Or rogues will be left with a skill that only attacks the shadows of characters and mages will become slaves to The Arlor Electrical Company with their lightning skills.

The intention was to prove to 'Dizzywizzie' that definitions can't always be attributed directly to names.

[Dizzywizzie]

The intention was to prove to 'Dizzywizzie' that definitions can't always be attributed directly to names.
It was a joke.... or at least it was intended like that.

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[Seoratrek]

We understand that some of the recent changes may not bode well with some of you. However, insulting each other and creating page after page of drama isn't going to lead anywhere productive. Thank you for taking the time to post your feedback and suggestions. I'll make a note of this thread in my report today.