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WhoIsThis
09-16-2011, 06:58 PM
Introduction

The dramatic increase in difficulty with Nuri's update has significantly altered how players seem to play. Note that these observations are of PUGs and may not be representative of your experiences. Rather, they are observations of how the majority of PUGs have adapted. Of course, you can expect better skills from people on the forums.

I would like to emphasize that it is possible with a competent and experienced team to complete any Nuri level without deaths. However, there is no denying that deaths will be more frequent overall.

Notice

Please do not complain about game mechanics nor about elixirs in this thread. This thread is intended to discuss whether or not my observations are factually accurate and the implications of them. Finally, this thread is to be used for discussing strategies on how to adapt to this increase in difficulty level.

This guide is currently under construction and will be expanded.


Class specific thoughts

You'll find that players are generally more scared of leading the party than ever before, regardless of their class.

Birds
1. Without an elixir, the "Physiologic" style of charging forward and burning pots with custom recurve or even a level 55 talon set (or sentinel) is now suicide. It seems to have disappeared entirely. Birds seldom lead parties now, even warbirds.

2. Even in PUGs, players that were once reluctant to burn a lot of potions appear to be willing to do so. Generally, a failure to do so means death. On a positive note, blaming mages for "not healing" seems to have declined. From my experiences on my main character, birds generally were the worst offenders on this one.

3. Int birds have almost entirely disappeared. I have only seen 1 int bird so far in Nuri. It seems that when push comes to shove, birds turn away from int. They were never that popular, but it is interesting to see.

Mages
1. The proportion of pure int to pally has gone in favor of pally as multiple int mages respec. Expected given the losses in survivability.

2. Staff with no elixir means frequent deaths, even if you stay to the rear.

Revision 21/09/2011:

With a good team, a pure int with a staff is viable and the death count is acceptably low (1 in every 5 to 10 runs). However this is heavily contingent on you running with a good team. You cannot lead the party, which was possible in Sewers with the enchanted, although being right behind the bear is viable. You will also do significantly more damage output. I recommend that you only do this though when there is a second mage present.

When facing bosses, be advised that if there are no players with elixirs, even if there are pure dex birds in full obedience unloading spells as fast as they can, you will probably pull aggro with the glyph charming staff set. In fact, you may find yourself pulling aggro with a glyph staff over pure dex birds with 2x elixirs. Bears seem to have a difficult time getting aggro from bosses when you have a staff. Perhaps staff for mobs and wand/bracer for bosses is optimal.

I consider the ability for a pure int mage to use a staff effectively in Nuri a way of separating decent mages from those that are truly outstanding.


3. Dex mages have also respeced in large numbers and there are many more dex/str pallies than before.

4. Few mages without an elixir are willing to lead, which is probably understandable, given how easy it is for an int or dex mage to die.

Bears
1. There are now fewer dex bears and more str bears ... a return to the traditional tank.

2. Many bears appear to be more timid about leading than before. I suspect that it is a fear of dying. The one hit procs are especially potent against strength builds that must close to melee to auto.

3. Bears that are willing to lead generally won't use the dex gear, unless they have an elixir. They shouldn't tank with dex gear in Nuri. If they do and you are a mage, be ready to revive them on short notice.



Party specific thoughts

There are 3 distinct types of parties (for the purposes of this discussion, elixir will be assumed to be a combo elixir):

1. Parties where nobody uses elixirs

2. Parties where 1-2 people use them

3. Parties where a majority of players use them



1. These runs are generally slow. They are forced to adopt a fairly conservative play-style because of how hard enemies hit. Deaths are not uncommon. Even with a bear, they tend to adopt "death train" style tactics where generally there is nobody in front. If somebody is in front, usually a strength based build, they are not as far as they would be in the sewers. It seems as if there are few people willing to lead a party in many PUGs. When fighting bosses, group wipes are not uncommon, particularly for Snake. Often in Symphony, people can get left behind. This is particularly troublesome in Nuri's madness, where int and dex based builds without an elixir can have difficulties reaching the boss alone. Some players I have spoken to (and I have spoken to what I consider some of the best players on PL on this matter) often skip the boss when there is a PUG. Players in these types of groups have become more fearful when fighting bosses of attracting aggro than before.

2. With the increase in difficulty, parties with elixirs are the norm rather than the exception. Where 1-2 people have elixirs, it tends to be a "follow the leader" sort of thing. Even with an elixir, there are occasional deaths for the elixir users and for the followers. Depending on how skilled the leader is, these runs can either be no faster than the first category or noticeably faster. The elixir user's main cause of deaths is the one hit ko procs, although bosses can also kill. In some PUGs, I have found myself attracting the aggro of the boss, despite the one (or sometimes two) of the players having a combo elixir. This is very alarming, because people with the elixir should be attracting the aggro. Sometimes the followers will purchase a levelling elixir to make the most of the leader's fast kills, especially if they know that they are going to be going level after level with the group.

3. These are the fastest runs, not surprisingly. Deaths still sometimes happen and are almost always from the one hit procs, but they are usually quickly revived. Some hosts will boot non-elixir players. Group wipes tend to be uncommon. Challenges include keeping the same group of elixir users together for the following run (this is desirable in order to maintain a fast run speed and to get the highest xp to time ratio, along with boss drops to time ratio). Another challenge is to synchronize the elixirs, as different people will have elixirs expiring at different times and will need to make a run to their guild halls to get the 10-15% discounts. A final challenge is that people will be leaving or wanting a break at different times. Maintaining a group of 4-5 people who use combo elixirs can be a challenge, but quite rewarding during the duration of the elixir.




Implications(please keep refrain from complaining to STS in this thread; if you have any complaints, I recommend using the suggestions and feedback section)

1. It would appear that STS is aggressively encouraging the usage of elixirs. First, the drastic increase in difficulty level is probably comparable to the pre-nerf AO3 days where death counts went up significantly (so in this respect, the difficulty is not without precedent). The use of "Vinny" for free elixirs appears to be a reinforcement.

2. Teams without elixirs inevitable suffer from a drastic slowdown in efficiency and higher death count.

I would like to keep further speculation about STS' business motives off this thread.






Thoughts

1. Team coordination is now critical, particularly if the majority of players are not using elixirs.

2. Most Nuri runs now have at least 1 person who uses elixirs. Said player should always lead and hold aggro. Many PUG players don't do this.

3. You have to be much more conservative now with your playstyle.

4. Any player entering Nuri (with the possible exception of pure int mages on elixirs) would be well advised to have a large stock of potions.

5. Previously, we saw many players holding PUGs. I can see that the locked game to PUG ratio is going more and more in favor of the locked games. This is because players want to play with people that they know are reliable and competent. PUGs in a sense are a roll of the dice. The increase in locked games may also have been caused by the introduction of guilds.




Strategies for Adapting

To begin with, even with these strategies, you can expect your K/D ratio to decline unless you use elixirs a lot (even then, expect to die from one hit procs and bosses regularly). If you are "ratio-ing", Nuri is not the place to be.

Compared to before, joining a PUG is now a far more daunting idea, unless you are joining one where the majority of people are using elixirs. This means that changes are needed in tactics. You can disregard many of these suggestions if you have an elixir or are in a type 3 party. These tactics are meant for people who do not frequently use elixirs or are in parties without many people using elixirs to adapt:

1. To begin with, you can't assume that everybody in the PUG is well experienced in Nuri. Players who have just come from the Sewers for the first time will likely be shocked at the increase in damage that they sustain. Don't be surprised if there are players that die frequently. That means carrying a lot of potions, including some in case a teammate runs out. Potions are cheap, unlike in SL, so don't grouse about this one. If you're in the Hallows, you can afford to give a couple of dozen pots to someone. Very important: You cannot be conservative in your potion usage.

2. I highly recommend having at least 2 mages per party now, particularly the ones without elixir users (and even with elixirs, it is highly recommended). Revive is a skill that will be pressed more often ... trust me.

3. It's very important that group members now assume their intended roles. Leading the party should be restricted to bears and perhaps pallies or warbirds. Bears are strongly advised not to be pure dex and to have at least 140 str. Be sure to Hell Scream fairly early as bear. It is imperative that if you are a bear, you keep aggro off the "squishies". Pure int and dex mages can die in 2 hits from a mob's regular attacks.

4. If you are in front, do not go too far ahead of your group. In Sewers, you could hold off a couple of guys on you. In Nuri, that's likely to end in a one hit ko with something like "grave stoned" going over your head. If you are in the rear, follow up immediately with the leader. Do not run in front of the group if you are a dex or int based character; very high probability of death.

5. Should you be a person with an elixir, and there are only 1-2 people with one, it's your job to lead. Besides, you want as many kills as possible for the duration of that elixir. When you reach the bosses, hold the aggro. Don't worry about the potion expenses. Oh, and don't get separated from the group. You are not invincible and despite the critics of elixirs, elixirs do not make this "Forest Haven". In Forest Haven, you don't see mobs one hit killing a level cap player. If you are in a type 2 group and don't have an elixir, time to play "follow the leader". Don't run in front of them, even as a bear.

6. Do not get separated from the main group. In some levels, like Symphony, there are areas that can be skipped. If you see the rest of the group going on direction, follow them. Don't get cut off. You will likely die without an elixir and can often die even with a 4x. Even if you survive, you'll be behind the group, which weakens the effectiveness of the group overall. All too often I see this happening. If you die and the only mage is on an elixir, remember that asking them to go back and revive costs the mage real money. Don't be offended if they don't.

I never thought I would say this, but if you are a mage on an elixir, and there is a dead person far away from your group, don't bother going back and reviving. It is costing you real money. Most likely the player will just leave. Hopefully they have learned their lesson. Do not be too concerned on about the loss in firepower. Compared to an elixir user, the loss of 1 player is relatively insignificant. This will open up a slot for a new player, although seldom do new players come and reach the boss in time. Furthermore, it isn't just money that is at stake. If you are the only person or there are only 1-2 out of 5 people with an elixir, the simple act of turning back will expose your entire group to aggro, likely causing more deaths for your teammates that did do the right thing and follow you.

7. If you do not already do so as a mage, get in the habit of spamming heal.

8. Use debuffs frequently. You need to minimize the amount of damage your group takes and maximize the damage that the group does. Be sure to take advantage of combos. Unlike in the Sewers, where hot flash did not work, hot flash works on everything except bosses and minibosses.

9. If you are in a group with only one elixir user than that elixir user leaves, a serious adjustment in tactics is needed immediately. Remaking is another option well worth considering.

10. Generally, mini bosses don't drop things of worth, so in most cases, I advise skipping them. The best thing they drop are the "junk" pinks. The only exception may be when a new player needs to unlock a level. By the way, if the player needs to says that they unlock, unless you are reasonably certain that this is not their first character to brave Nuri, assume that they are a novice in the Hallows and plan accordingly.

11. Do not do round-ups in Nuri. I have seen a few players try this one. Unless you have 4-5 people with elixirs (even then it can be risky), you are asking for a group wipe.

I had a situation in the Sewers level, the Catacombs where people would do round-ups. The truth is, most PUGs have difficulties handling more than 5 or 6 fireball shooting flame creatures, let along 20+ slime creatures in a roundup where around a third to half will be fireball shooters. As I liked to say, you know you are in trouble when you see all 4 of your teammates dead and there are 5 guys shooting fireballs at you simultaneously.

Nuri in this regard is even more dangerous. Plus, even if you as a strength-based char or elixir user can survive, this does not mean that your teammates can nor can you assure them that you can keep all of the aggro off them. In any event, the way that the Nuri maps are laid out, roundups do not save time.

12. Finding good players and adding them to your friend's list is now more important than ever. I want to stress this one. With good teammates, you can play in locked games with people that you have past experience with and are reasonably certain are reliable. Plus, because you encountered each other at a given time, there's a good chance that they often will play at the times that you play!

As the percentage of locked games continues to increase, it means that players without a list of reliable friends could find themselves with other players that failed to impress others, so it is probably imperative to make friends. In other games, WoW for example, good players generally found themselves in guilds while players that were deemed not skilled enough to were usually left in PUGs. The introduction of guilds is likely to lead to a similar situation here in PL and has already done so in SL. Be sure to do runs with your guild members as well. Apart from strengthening guild bonds, often guild members are better than PUGs and would have to be competent enough to have satisfied the guild master to be admitted.

13. Reinforcing the above, ensure that you join a good guild with lots of experienced players or a group of people that you feel comfortable playing. It will make your runs much smoother.

14. Don't be too aggressive. Deal with mobs in their intended group sizes of 5-6 at a time. If you don't have elixirs, it will be tough enough. Biting off more than you can chew is a sure way to die. If you see a group member going ahead, don't join them. You need to deal with the current mob first. If person who is charging has no elixir, they will likely have to be revived. If they have an elixir, then there's a pretty good chance that they will prevail, especially with buffs. Worse case is when they decide to come back with the mob behind their tail. As mentioned in 11, rounding up is not a good idea. If that happens, be ready to retreat and reset the entire mob. Tell your eager comrade not to run ahead. If they persist, consider booting or asking the host to do so.

Whirlzap
09-16-2011, 07:05 PM
I completely agree with you on this.
STS has to stop making elixirs so potent.
I used to be concerned about 4x EXP, however now 4x Damage/Armor is gettig into my mind.
"IT SEEMS AS IF STS MADE THE NEW LEVELS THE DIFFICULTY FOR ONLY ELIXIR USERS!"
^Cannot say it better than that.

-1. The proportion of pure int to pally has gone in favor of pally as multiple int mages respec. Expected given the losses in survivability.

2. Staff with no elixir means frequent deaths, even if you stay to the rear.

3. Dex mages have also respeced in large numbers and there are many more dex/str pallies than before.

4. Few mages without an elixir are willing to lead, which is probably understandable, given how easy it is for an int or dex mage to die.
Oh boy, poor mages. Good-bye to the recommended stat builds.

WhoIsThis
09-16-2011, 07:08 PM
I completely agree with you on this.
STS has to stop making elixirs so potent.
I used to be concerned about 4x EXP, however now 4x Damage/Armor is gettig into my mind.
"IT SEEMS AS IF STS MADE THE NEW LEVELS THE DIFFICULTY FOR ONLY ELIXIR USERS!"
^Cannot say it better than that.

I would prefer it if you did not use this thread to complain about elixirs. There is already a thread and discussion about the impacts of elixirs on the game in the suggestions section.

Whirlzap
09-16-2011, 07:11 PM
You kinda sparked it here:
1. Without an elixir, the "Physiologic" style of charging forward and burning pots with custom recurve or even a level 55 talon set (or sentinel) is now suicide. It seems to have disappeared entirely. Birds seldom lead parties now, even warbirds.
And here:
2. Staff with no elixir means frequent deaths, even if you stay to the rear.

But ok.

Driazsomethingiforgot
09-16-2011, 07:13 PM
I think they are trying to push us to use elixers more. I lve noticed it since the announcing of Nuris curcis early summer. Alot of people thought the new campaign was gonna come come sooner than it did. So I noticed huge spike in elixir users in the sewers to reach lv56 and get the crown of persistance. This was quickly followed by the release of Vinny and trying to push elixir use in game by having the npc appear in all levels. And now the free everyday elixir has come. Im kinda wondering if STS are trying to push the players into buyin elixirs to compinsate for the now free main spine. Just my opinion though.

Edit: oops sorry didnt see your post before I wrote this

Ixillicus
09-16-2011, 07:14 PM
Wow this is a pretty detailed post, and I agree that most of this stuff is true.

WhoIsThis
09-16-2011, 07:15 PM
You kinda sparked it here:
1. Without an elixir, the "Physiologic" style of charging forward and burning pots with custom recurve or even a level 55 talon set (or sentinel) is now suicide. It seems to have disappeared entirely. Birds seldom lead parties now, even warbirds.
And here:
2. Staff with no elixir means frequent deaths, even if you stay to the rear.

But ok.

Whirl, please do not bait in this thread.

These are observations. I do not intend for them to be used for you as a platform to complain to STS.

Megabird56
09-16-2011, 07:28 PM
Havent played shadow caves in a very long time but Nuri is still easier now when im level 60 than the shadow caves when I was level 56 lol

So the increase in difficulty is not THAT dramatic

WhoIsThis
09-16-2011, 07:37 PM
Havent played shadow caves in a very long time but Nuri is still easier now when im level 60 than the shadow caves when I was level 56 lol

So the increase in difficulty is not THAT dramatic

True. But if memory does serve me, enemies do not hit as hard in Shadow, and the regular mobs generally don't one hit ko. Certain bosses in Shadow though, like the Witch can be very tricky.

It's also why Shadow Cave gear commands such a premium - hard to obtain.

CrimsonTider
09-16-2011, 07:48 PM
Wow... a lot to digest, but I will comment on what I know the most about: Bears.

You have hit the nail on the head with your observation on bears staying back. As for myself, I will NEVER let a mage or bird lead the back, but I also realize that with each update, I am a dying breed. As for the decline in dex bears, with the vast improvement on hit% and damage with the strength sets, the use for dex gear is not as needed as before. Granted, I am still dual specced to aid in additional hit% through stats, but for the first time since I can remember, I do not have any dex gear (other than custom crown) equipped on my bear. THAT is a good thing.

I do, however, disagree with it being recommended bears have 140 INT. Bears never have, nor ever will, have a need for increased mana and m/s. An increase in dex is much more efficient for a bear.

Overall, an amazing thread. Hats off to one of the first useful, detailed posts I have seen in a while.

WhoIsThis
09-16-2011, 07:53 PM
I do, however, disagree with it being recommended bears have 140 INT. Bears never have, nor ever will, have a need for increased mana and m/s. An increase in dex is much more efficient for a bear.

Overall, an amazing thread. Hats off to one of the first useful, detailed posts I have seen in a while.



Lol - meant to type strength. Thanks.

Edit:
I did see an int bear in Nuri the other day. He/She played reasonably well (at least with an elixir anyways), although I don't recommend people using int bears in Nuri. Dex bears will also be a less common sight, even when there are 2 bears and 1 is in the "tank" position.

Moogerfooger
09-16-2011, 08:06 PM
Excellent posts.

There are still some of us that are aggressive on archer or mage, even without elixirs. Call us stubborn :) but the death count certainly took a (one)hit(KO) to some extent.

PUGs have always been slower than a good group, with or without elixirs, but now often painfully so.

The single most obvious thing to me, besides the increased elixir use and the one hit KOs, is the overall timidity of people. Even if you were say a lvl 59, and the rest of the party was 55-57...in PUGs they will stand around for you, even if you are a dex bird or pure int mage, and wait for you to lead. Kinda sad to see.

Roundups are gone...thankfully. They were always very risky to dex archers/int mages, due to the sudden huge mob aggro you could get, and one just couldn't spam health fast enough to stay alive, much less kill anything. But I have seen bears, including the usual pros, focus a lot on perfecting beckons even more so, which not only helps them but the party as a whole :) smaller groups of mobs though.

Definitely gone are the days, except for a select few running elixirs (and even then it can get risky), of getting all spread out. One good thing is that I see a lot more emphasis on the party staying tightly together.

WhoIsThis
09-16-2011, 08:10 PM
@ Moog:

That reminds me - don't do round ups in Nuri. I have seen a few crazy people do try them.

bronislav84
09-16-2011, 08:11 PM
Wow. This needs to either be sticky or moved to guides then sticky. This is gonna be my primer for the Circus.

First time I'm actually subscribing to a thread, like ever.

WhoIsThis
09-16-2011, 08:55 PM
I added a section on elixirs and how to use them effectively as a group.

Edit:
I have decided to move it to a separate thread:

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?37151-How-to-use-elixirs-effectively-in-a-group&p=418703#post418703

YYZ????
09-16-2011, 10:24 PM
Great post. A must read for frequent PUG players like myself.

Potions are definately more needed now than ever. Before this campaign unless you were super aggresive you could usually chug a few in between mobs, and be fine. Now with a pure dex bird I find when I get aggro I have to continuously chug like a college frat boy. (Hooch hat should contain 5 potions for quick consumption).

I am a little worried about elixir addiction. When players stop buying, they are going to have to re-learn or adjust gamplay. If they read this post it will help them through detox.

Off topic - Attackelf, I was running with you using YYZbird on our first run through Nuri's. I have yet to get a group to go all the way through with my mage.

WhoIsThis
09-16-2011, 11:27 PM
Off topic - Attackelf, I was running with you using YYZbird on our first run through Nuri's. I have yet to get a group to go all the way through with my mage.


Don't try unless clearing for a new character.

In terms of xp to time yield, clearing the whole map makes no sense.

pastrychef
09-16-2011, 11:59 PM
My bear hasn't used anything other than leveling elixirs since the introduction of plat elixirs. I don't care who I'm playing with, I want to lead and I willingly take aggro. The only thing I ask is that the team follows me and not wander off. That's when I die. Having bad bears on teams spreading out mobs like warm butter on toast can now be quite deadly.

As for spec'ing, I agree that Nuri's is far more suited to pure str bears than before. However, personally, I still have 140 dex due to the need to equip a ranged weapon for soloing purposes.

I think part of the reason why Nuri's is more difficult is because of skills. When level cap was increased from 50 to 56, skill level max was raised from 5 to 6. This didn't happen with the increase to 61. Most of the important skill we use most often had already been maxed out at level 56. So we just increased the secondary skills to 6.

In regards to Nuri's vs Shadow Caves... The mobs in Nuri's is far tougher than the Shadow Cave mobs (including the early days, prior to the dumbing down of Shadow Cave mobs). But, in my opinion, there's still no boss tougher than the murderous Witch.

WhoIsThis
09-21-2011, 07:45 PM
I would like to revise what I said earlier. Staffs are viable with good teams.

Aneheazatek
09-21-2011, 08:02 PM
Well explained . Perhap nuri hollow and even futher new maps would really heading toward the direction of potting 4x exlixer for runs to be possible. i would not grumble much as i believe the plat users are the ones who are keeping this game running.

Btw, +1 for your detailed write up. :)


I completely agree with you on this.
STS has to stop making elixirs so potent.
I used to be concerned about 4x EXP, however now 4x Damage/Armor is gettig into my mind.
"IT SEEMS AS IF STS MADE THE NEW LEVELS THE DIFFICULTY FOR ONLY ELIXIR USERS!"
^Cannot say it better than that.

-1. The proportion of pure int to pally has gone in favor of pally as multiple int mages respec. Expected given the losses in survivability.

2. Staff with no elixir means frequent deaths, even if you stay to the rear.

3. Dex mages have also respeced in large numbers and there are many more dex/str pallies than before.

4. Few mages without an elixir are willing to lead, which is probably understandable, given how easy it is for an int or dex mage to die.
Oh boy, poor mages. Good-bye to the recommended stat builds.

WhoIsThis
09-21-2011, 08:04 PM
Well explained . Perhap nuri hollow and even futher new maps would really heading toward the direction of potting 4x exlixer for runs to be possible. i would not grumble much as i believe the plat users are the ones who are keeping this game running.

Once again, please keep this thread clean of STS' business motives.

Haowesie
09-21-2011, 08:40 PM
My bear hasn't used anything other than leveling elixirs since the introduction of plat elixirs. I don't care who I'm playing with, I want to lead and I willingly take aggro. The only thing I ask is that the team follows me and not wander off. That's when I die. Having bad bears on teams spreading out mobs like warm butter on toast can now be quite deadly.

As for spec'ing, I agree that Nuri's is far more suited to pure str bears than before. However, personally, I still have 140 dex due to the need to equip a ranged weapon for soloing purposes.

I've seen a few good bears still leading (hats off to you guys) and I try hard to be right behind. It's frustrating sometimes with scatter-bears, but do understand about survivability which is also the reason why I respec'd, I'm a lot slower, but die less often. The increase in respec may also be due to the rarity of the items and people just holding on to them. Glyph prices are high and costs a lot listing in CS.

I also observed a lot of low level peeps leaving after dying... what I don't understand is why they leave so far in the game -- I'm often left abandoned right up at the boss. I understand there are people who just want to level up, but with the rarity of these items, it's funny that they pass up a chance for the boss when it's so hard to get there.

Good post!

Aneheazatek
09-21-2011, 08:41 PM
Just a discussion , not a debate on STS game development. Chill.


Once again, please keep this thread clean of STS' business motives.

Artemis
09-21-2011, 08:46 PM
1. That is to damn long lol my lil mind cant handle that much ;)

2. Ill just say what i think of it. TO MUCH EXP BETWEEN EVERY LEVEL! not even 56 yet because i got bored halfway lol

mackjack
09-21-2011, 09:51 PM
I disagree with the comments that Nuri's is too hard and is targeting 4x elixir users.

I think most of us have spent too long running sewers with enchanted/customized/fortified gear, such that sewers felt easy to us. And once we started playing Nuri's, it feels harder than it actually is because we are not used to constantly spamming pots anymore. I have no idea what STS will do with Mount Fang and future maps, but Nuri's is perfectly doable with a decent group of level 55/56 players without elixirs.

One thing I want to point out is that I see way too many players rushing through the sewers these days (lots of 1/2 finished hideout xp runs). If you hit Nuri's with crappy gear and without having learned to work in a team, then yeah, Nuri's will be hard.

pastrychef
09-22-2011, 01:29 AM
I don't remember any other map where mobs have special attacks and combos.

Prior to Nuri's, I never had more than 25 health pots in inventory even when soloing. Doing that in Nuri's is suicide.

Yes, it's certainly possible to with a decent team without pots but it's most certainly more difficult than what we've seen in PL thus far with the exception Shadow Caves for bosses.

Riccits
09-22-2011, 04:32 AM
IMO the Nuri campain is hard in some way, thats ok. BUT the new Nuri gear isnt that great improvement compared to the Sewer gear.
In Sewers the lvl 50 was kinda poor, but with the new 55 sets playing in Sewers was going quite smooth. Now i dont feel much difference between Sewer gear and Nuris. But the mobs are much harder do kill, their armor isnt the problem, but the huge hp they have. More than they from Shadow Caves
Without elixiers is pretty hard to play.

My suggestion is to reduce HP of mobs or make nuri gear better... non elixiered parties are very slow.. to slow to have fun... and PL should be fun for ALL, not pain..

Kelstrick
09-22-2011, 07:48 AM
Wow, all I can say is this is an incredible post and I couldn't agree more.

One comment for you to consider to add to your strategy section is, if you're the host or if you're leading the group, you must communicate your intent to "skip" a miniboss or "keep left", especially in a huge map such as Symphony. (You kind of touch on this in your thoughts section, but I believe the communication tip can't be stressed enough, especially if you're in a PUG with players in their mid-50s still in Sewer gear)

WhoIsThis
09-22-2011, 11:07 AM
Just a discussion , not a debate on STS game development. Chill.

I do feel that I have some right to control the direction of the conversation as this is my thread. In any event, I specifically said at the top of this thread not to post comments on STS business motives.






I disagree with the comments that Nuri's is too hard and is targeting 4x elixir users.

I think most of us have spent too long running sewers with enchanted/customized/fortified gear, such that sewers felt easy to us. And once we started playing Nuri's, it feels harder than it actually is because we are not used to constantly spamming pots anymore. I have no idea what STS will do with Mount Fang and future maps, but Nuri's is perfectly doable with a decent group of level 55/56 players without elixirs.

One thing I want to point out is that I see way too many players rushing through the sewers these days (lots of 1/2 finished hideout xp runs). If you hit Nuri's with crappy gear and without having learned to work in a team, then yeah, Nuri's will be hard.

It's certainly worth considering. The Shadow Caves too were significantly harder than AO3. Frozen Nightmares is considerably harder too if you consider the level range that it is for. Of course, it does beg the question why would they introduce the 4X around the time of the release of Nuri? It certainly suggests that they knew that people would have difficulty adapting. Either way, lets keep the business motivations off this thread.

When Nuri came, I was expecting a bump in difficulty comparable from when AO3 to Sewers - fighting aliens to fighting bandit boys, green slime creatures, and a newer generation of more potent goblins. Mount Fang was reportedly the "elite" level, so I was expecting again something comparable to Frozen Nightmare to it's Lost Expedition counterpart.

It is quite doable as you say - if it were undoable, the entire purpose of this thread is to convey ideas for adapting would be pointless. I will mention that it is quite doable though in this thread.

Rare
09-22-2011, 02:58 PM
I'd have to say your finding are pretty spot on. I've noticed a lot of the same things.

Although, I haven't had as many problems with the instant deaths that a lot of people have been mentioning (still using Fury, MM, and Custom sets BTW).

For my dex mage, I definitely have second thoughts about leading (unless on elixir), especially if there is a bear in the group. Although, I have found that even some full STR bears will not lead or do not know they should lead. When running with a bear that will lead and beckon I generally will do my best to follow directly behind them to launch combos and spam heal.

For my pure dex bird, I will almost never lead.

For my dex bear, I have no problems leading. It does burn a lot of pots though, even when using x4 elixir. If I'm not on the juice, I'll lead in Fury gear. If I'm on the juice I'll use Custom gear.

One of the biggest problems I've found is that groups tend to not stay together. I think it necessary more in Nuri than in any other campaign. When you do find a good group that can run in a pack, its great. As soon as it breaks up you're likely to see 5 dead toons a lot of times.

Two places I see this problem the most are in Haunted Symphony. First at the first miniboss. Some skip, some fight. The second is at the opening just after the miniboss. Some go right, some go left.

ATL

Rare
09-22-2011, 03:02 PM
One thing I want to point out is that I see way too many players rushing through the sewers these days (lots of 1/2 finished hideout xp runs). If you hit Nuri's with crappy gear and without having learned to work in a team, then yeah, Nuri's will be hard.

That started LOOONG before Nuri's. I remember about the last two month or so before Nuri's it was really hard to find a group that would finish hideout runs.

ATL

WhoIsThis
09-22-2011, 05:53 PM
That started LOOONG before Nuri's. I remember about the last two month or so before Nuri's it was really hard to find a group that would finish hideout runs.

ATL

Most groups tended to stop at Catspaw to maximize their xp to time ratio.

Personally, I recommend asking the intentions of the group before joining. Also, assess whether or not based on the skill demonstrated whether they have a realistic chance of killing the boss.

pastrychef
09-23-2011, 06:55 AM
IMO the Nuri campain is hard in some way, thats ok. BUT the new Nuri gear isnt that great improvement compared to the Sewer gear.
In Sewers the lvl 50 was kinda poor, but with the new 55 sets playing in Sewers was going quite smooth. Now i dont feel much difference between Sewer gear and Nuris. But the mobs are much harder do kill, their armor isnt the problem, but the huge hp they have. More than they from Shadow Caves
Without elixiers is pretty hard to play.

My suggestion is to reduce HP of mobs or make nuri gear better... non elixiered parties are very slow.. to slow to have fun... and PL should be fun for ALL, not pain..

Strongman Glyph and Glyph Big Top actually give less dodge and health regen than sewer gear. However, it is more balanced in the sense that they offer hit % and damage improvements.

I like the difficulty of Nuri's, though, and enjoy the chanllenge when running with a team of players not on elixirs. One thing that infuriates me is fighting Snake Charmer. Sometimes, even when clearly well behind a column, he still manages to wipe a party.

WhoIsThis
09-27-2011, 09:40 AM
Hmm, saw an int bird today with the glyph charming wand set. Performance was actually quite good. Perhaps int bird is actually viable in PvE?

If I can get more data, it may be time for a revision in conventional thinking.

Duped
09-27-2011, 12:50 PM
FWIW, as a bear primarily, I always still tank, and I tank all levels except Symphony in dex gear. If the party is weaker, I'll swap to a STR/ DEX hybrid, and my bear is still only lvl 58, so its definitely doable.

As to why the big jump in difficulty, I think its been stated very clearly, the "skills" we are putting points into contribute substantially less than before, and the gear is also only a slight improvement IMO. I always enjoy your posts and your character in runs, very well thought out.

WhoIsThis
09-27-2011, 06:06 PM
I am currently in the process of gathering more data for int birds. I know that some people are gonna be skeptical, but we'll see. It could end up that said player would have been more effective had he selected dex gear.


FWIW, as a bear primarily, I always still tank, and I tank all levels except Symphony in dex gear. If the party is weaker, I'll swap to a STR/ DEX hybrid, and my bear is still only lvl 58, so its definitely doable.

As to why the big jump in difficulty, I think its been stated very clearly, the "skills" we are putting points into contribute substantially less than before, and the gear is also only a slight improvement IMO. I always enjoy your posts and your character in runs, very well thought out.

It is indeed doable - it can be done with everyone at level 55 with no elixirs.

Skill ranks are indeed less significant.

Compared to the previous level, we would expect:

60 / 55 = 1.0909 ...

We would expect our gear to be about 9-10% more effective overall than end game pinks (enchanted, custom, fortified).

You can read Moog's dex gear comparison here:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?36231-Nuri-Dex-Gear-Comparo-vs.-Custom-Recurve

I will be doing a comparison of int gear myself at a later date, but I expect to find the int gear in line with my expectations.

WhoIsThis
10-02-2011, 06:30 PM
This thread will be receiving ongoing updates as I make new observations.

That latest is that pure dex birds CAN lead a party without elixirs with their daggers set and some report success using all drainers.

However, this is very costly in potions (although the amount of drops you get will more than make up for it), and the bird will be forced to only lead when evade is up. Leading with evade down is very risky.

LoveMadrid
10-02-2011, 07:16 PM
The stuff about Charmin set mage with staff and no elixir= frequent death is too true.. Mobs (in any lvl cept for den) hit 250 to 205 on me .. So its a two hit K.O..

Too hard to survive..

Pakax
10-02-2011, 07:33 PM
I would like to revise what I said earlier. Staffs are viable with good teams.

I agree. I am a pure int staff mage and with a good team it is manageable. However, i have quite drastically changed my tactics. I tend to go in (dont mind being first) cast icestorm and go out, heal to clean debuff effect for party, weakness etc and then when a bear has used beckon cast fire and lightening, etc

My use of heal has generally increased significantly, both for myself but also for party and to fight the debuffs mobs are using. If i can keep my party alive and give them that extra second to use a pot, then i stay alive. Learnt that the hard way :)

Pakax
10-02-2011, 07:35 PM
The stuff about Charmin set mage with staff and no elixir= frequent death is too true.. Mobs (in any lvl cept for den) hit 250 to 205 on me .. So its a two hit K.O..

Too hard to survive..

Need to use ur shields effectivelly for sure but u can also reduce their damage = that helps a lot. Also move fast and aim for ranged ones with staff. Survival ultimately depends on a good party (that stays alive as well)

Pakax
10-02-2011, 07:39 PM
Most groups tended to stop at Catspaw to maximize their xp to time ratio.

Personally, I recommend asking the intentions of the group before joining. Also, assess whether or not based on the skill demonstrated whether they have a realistic chance of killing the boss.

Some things will never change :-)
Am going to go and kill fever tomorrow, i cant seem to remember what he looks like :-)))

WhoIsThis
10-07-2011, 02:01 AM
Some things will never change :-)
Am going to go and kill fever tomorrow, i cant seem to remember what he looks like :-)))

So what was it like?