"Dear Commandos: Use your Heavy Weapons, dangit!"

[Nightarcher]

Seriously, this bugs me so much. Commandos are masters of AOE attacks, and we are the only class which can use powerful AOE weapons. However, I hardly see anyone taking advantage of this. The biggest thing I see is that Commandos use a shield/pistol set-up, claiming it "helps them tank better."

Hey all you Commandos who use a shield! 144 armor will not increase your tanking ability. The only thing it does is decrease your damage output, by taking away the AOE advantage that a Heavy Weapon gives you.

Unlike PL where 1 armor = -1 damage to you, it seems that in SL, 50 armor = -1 damage to you. To get the protection 100 armor in PL gives you, you would need 5,000 armor in SL! As you can see, armor as we know it in SL is extremely weak. Tanking is a mix of dodge, crowd control, Stims, and experience.


P.S.- Using a rifle is good too, having excellent single-target damage. Just don't use a pistol/shield!

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Ok, rant done. I put in General so people will actually see it, and hopefully learn to play their class better. ;)

[Bakoffmycandy]

I LMAO evey time I see an Op using a shield. They all say the same thing. "I really dont loose much dps at all & I get all this armor." Personally I like to Dual wield & maximize damage per second. Thats what an Operative is, pure single target dps.

[Growwle]

The plat rifles are the best stat wise, and the pistols do significantly more dps. STS needs to make heavy weapons that are worth taking.

[Nightarcher]

The plat rifles are the best stat wise, and the pistols do significantly more dps. STS needs to make heavy weapons that are worth taking.

Heavy weapons have lower stats because they aren't single-target. In reality, the ability to hit many anamies makes it a far superior weapon damage-wise, and for the aggro it draws. The only time it isn't the best is at a boss where you don't need AOE.

[Cahaun]

The plat rifles are the best stat wise, and the pistols do significantly more dps. STS needs to make heavy weapons that are worth taking.

Heavy weapons have lower stats because they aren't single-target. In reality, the ability to hit many anamies makes it a far superior weapon damage-wise, and for the aggro it draws. The only time it isn't the best is at a boss where you don't need AOE.
True thats why we use armor for mobs and dps for bosses.

[Growwle]

The plat rifles are the best stat wise, and the pistols do significantly more dps. STS needs to make heavy weapons that are worth taking.

Heavy weapons have lower stats because they aren't single-target. In reality, the ability to hit many anamies makes it a far superior weapon damage-wise, and for the aggro it draws. The only time it isn't the best is at a boss where you don't need AOE.

It's been a while since I have grouped with people who have had trouble with trash mobs, so I usually just worry about the boss, but you make a good point.

[McBain]

I totally agree with your viewpoint of what makes a good commando. Thing is, though, heavy weapons don't really help in the aggro-holding department. I've experimented a bunch with this, and I seem to gain and hold aggro better with a rifle than with a heavy weapon, which makes sense because, from what I understand of aggro, there's a direct correlation to the amount of damage you dole out. The AOE effect doesn't seem to matter from what I've been able to tell. In other words, damage spread over a bunch of enemies in a mob doesn't hold priority over an equal amount of damage dealt to a single target or multiple single targets over the course of a battle (and the devs' few comments on aggro seem to hint at this). Damage is damage. The heavy weapons would only make sense to me if they had either had higher base damage than rifles, an armor boost, or their damage was direct AOE (more or less average weapon damage to multiple enemies) and not splash damage (only minor secondary damage to non-targeted enemies). Rifles just do more damage, plain and simple, which means more aggro.

Of course, again, this is all based on my own observation, no hard number-crunching, scientific evidence, or anything like that. I've tried using heavy weapons, and it just seems like I can do a better job "commando-ing" with a good rifle than with a heavy weapon. I know that, in theory, AOE damage should be a big deal, but so far I haven't been convinced when it comes to the real world. I can't speak for everyone, but when you when you see me running around with a rifle, that's why. :) There was some thought and trial-and-error that went into it.

[Moogerfooger]

I LMAO evey time I see an Op using a shield. They all say the same thing. "I really dont loose much dps at all & I get all this armor." Personally I like to Dual wield & maximize damage per second. Thats what an Operative is, pure single target dps.

Dual wield is all right for mobs...but one could say the heavy rifles are best for bosses due to the higher base damage being able to overwhelm the boss' armor better....I try to switch out depending if at a boss/min or not.

DPS = damage against air, not taking armor into account. Most overrated stat in PL/SL.

[peacemaster]

I don't know about this one... In numa it did seem to make a difference beacuse the bugs would just pack insane amounts of damage. In the new campaign however, I do not think that agro holding is an issue that much for some reason, I don't seem to gain agro on my engi and if I do, I don't have problems coping with it. In numa, I died instantly in some situations.

[Nightarcher]

It's not as much about the aggro, but rather, the damage output lost in an attempt to gain a puny amount of defense. I'm pretty much speaking out against shields... which are pretty much useless without any dodge. Use 2h weapons you babies! (or at least Comms/Ops)

[McBain]

A case could be made for a commando using a DPS weapon like a pistol against a boss, where single target damage is much more of a priority. In that case, it would be kinda stupid to not use a shield, given that you have the extra hand free already. That's not taking into account the thing about armor that Moogerfooger mentioned, which...is that definitely true? I don't know. Kinda makes sense. Either way, as an all-purpose commando weapon, the rifle seems the way to go in my opinion. They've got a good combination of high base damage and speed.

[BodMaster]

Hmmm I know what you are saying.. however for instance what if your using custom with18 Dodge and 750+ armour with skill 1100 armour.. IMO with that much Dodge I think the shield/pistol works.. didn't really find an AoE gun worth using within new update.. or rifle

[Brickwall]

I'm gonna agree with McBain on this one, while the aoe weapon may be good, as soon as one trigger happy party member attacks the wrong mob you lose all the aggro you might have gained at that point. Plus the extra damage isn't even guaranteed, I find myself missing a good deal of the time.

Also all the commando exclusive weapons look boring. Pistol/shield ftw!

[Nightarcher]

Hmm, maybe I need to make a separate thread explaining why a rifle is far superior to a pistol/shield in terms of single-target damage output. ;)

[Cheah]

Totally agreed bro. Tank should yield with HW. (only aoe weapon in game)
Don't u think that the tank com with a pistol and shield look so G:) lol

[skavenger216]

I think a lot of the problem is that most people are unaware of the aoe effect of heavy weapon. Usually, when people ask why I'm using heavy instead of shield/pistol, and I explain how the heavy weapons are aoe, they tell me they didn't know that. I usually see those same people using a heavy weapon shortly thereafter, lol.

[Cahaun]

Commandos are for tanking. Why worry about dps soo much?

[Nightarcher]

Commandos are for tanking. Why worry about dps soo much?

Commandos are two things mainly:

1. Tanks who use dodge/armor/crowd control to increase team survivability.

2. Incredible AOE fighters. When it comes to bosses we're mostly for keeping aggro, but we excel at fighting large amounts of enemies. There are less large clusters in Slouch-O than in Numa Prime, so people have kinda forgotten it. With our Gravity Well beckon, Singularity pulse knockdown/knockback, and Neutron Stomp knockdown, you have a whole other dynamic to Commandos that has been lost.

I don't use Increase Mass any more because it's such an inefficient buff, and armor is underwhelming. I put 6 points into the Commando crit skill, and let me tell you, that 60 crit for 15 seconds is beastly.

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My opinion of a skilled Commando is someone who can both tank efficiently, and use their AOE capabilities (mainly skills) to do some nice damage to clusters of enemies. You have more than enough skill points to spend, so don't be afraid to use some offense too. :)

[javier995]

only reason im using a pistol and shield is cause im not lvl30 yet once i hit lvl30 im switch between the epic weapons(since i have them all). but im planning on using the heavy weapon(cause of the effect lol) not sure which will work best yet still debating, but in the end it's all up to the player if they prefer dps over damage or vise versa. personally il use whatever gets the job done^_^

[Kindread]

I just experienced firsthand how ridiculous a commando with pistol and shield is. I died 3 times against the Director Droid becaue I was effectively the tank as I was doing more damage than the Commando with pistol and shield. I was livid. I didn't accept the revive and just kept hounding the tank to switch weapons and do his job and tank so I can do my job and heal him. A commando not tanking is like me running around not healing and calling myself an attack engineer. Ok end rant.

[Acyer]

Im gonna agree with night here even tho we had this argument. Cannons should be used in groups of mobs as if u get damage on mobs u get aggro. Dont worry bout anything else your main role is tanking cannons help you do your job easier. Also rifles should be a must on single targets imo.

[Moogerfooger]

hat's not taking into account the thing about armor that Moogerfooger mentioned, which...is that definitely true?

Yes, that is definitely true in PL, and I would be willing to bet the same for SL. DPS does not account for the enemy's armor...it is hypothetical damage output against air, so to speak. That is why high base damage weaps in PL and then SL are generally more effective against high armor bosses/mobs. I won't get into the debate going on about Commandos as mine is only lvl 11 or something and I don't know enough about the class...but in general, lower DPS but higher base damage weaps can overwhelm enemy armor values more.

Stupid made-up example with made-up numbers:
Enemy mob with 35 armor
Weap 1: Pistol that has an avg of base dmg of 55, speed 0.8 (roughly 69 DPS)
Weap 2: Rifle with avg base 65, speed 1.0 (65 DPS)

Eight seconds.

Weap 1 gets 10 shots in 8 secs = (Base dmg - enemy armor)*10 = (55-35)*10 = 200 actual damage dealt.
Weap 2 gets 8 shots in 8 secs = (65-35)*8 = 240 actual dmg dealt.

Barring any kind of proc/AoE that Weap 1 has that may make it more handy, gamesetandmatch for Weap 2, despite having a slightly lower DPS.

Again, made up example numbers....until someone figures out some of the mob/boss armor like Physiologic did for most of PL, and disproves this with real numbers.....base damage (USUALLY) > DPS.

Speaking of aggro....I have the new Op skill maxed at 6...when that is active, I am running 79 crit and unfortunately steal aggro from Commandos quickly on bosses sometimes. Double-edged sword.

[Raulur]

I'm only 20ish on my comm, but I will say that by feel it was best to use the heavy weapons (aoe) on mobs and a rifle of some sort on bosses. You can wreck mobs at a wicked pace by starting off with auto attack, using the pull skill near a wall, stomp, then back away and hit the aoe knockback skill. In the end I always get frustrated that I can never find a good engineer to run with. Then I go back to my engineer and help guildies.


I just experienced firsthand how ridiculous a commando with pistol and shield is. I died 3 times against the Director Droid becaue I was effectively the tank as I was doing more damage than the Commando with pistol and shield. I was livid. I didn't accept the revive and just kept hounding the tank to switch weapons and do his job and tank so I can do my job and heal him. A commando not tanking is like me running around not healing and calling myself an attack engineer. Ok end rant.

I had a similar experience this weekend on my engineer. The attack engineer bit made me chuckle though. :) I don't understand the attack engineer thing. If you want damage, there are 2 other classes that are better suited at it. Yes, even commandos if they are played right.

[Rob Prose]

I'm kinda reluctant to go for pistol+shield simply because of the damage factors. I remember reading in the commando forums that when someone tried to use the plat pistol for tanking because of the higher dps it actually backfired and they couldn't hold agro as well. What I'm curious about is if there is some kind of agro modifier for using the cannon because when I go between my SGT rep rifle(25) and my wastelander(25) against bosses the wastelander seems to hold more agro despite being a non-premium green. As for the armor factor from the shield I think thats a moot point seeing as any 1/4 brained engineer has empathy and trans at 6 which does mad overhealing. It was also found that bosses require less armor to mitigate damage than the clustermobs where it is just a skill spam rather than a coordinated fight so the additional armor isn't even necessary. IMO shields seem more like an OP/eng item to help keep those squishies from dying.