WhoIsThis
09-21-2011, 08:51 PM
Ever since the Big Top set, there has been speculation that bears may "rule" level cap PvP. It is clear to me after some experimentation that although very formidable, this is now unlikely.
Comparisons to prior sets
Compared to it's immediate predecessor, it is clear that Big Top represents a significant upgrade. Compared to the 55 sets (fortified and royal sewer; for the purposes of this discussion, fury will be assumed to be a pally set). Unsurprisingly, like before, the 2h version does poorly, so this discussion will focus on the shield and sword:
1. There is now a buff to hit %. This is very important for strength bears and is probably more useful than just buffing damage (which happened in fortified), particularly when debuffed. Big top also somewhat buffs damage (5 per piece).
2. There is a respectable amount of health regen, although less than fortified, still very adequate.
3. High mana regen. Less useful for bears, but potentially makes big top viable for warbirds and pallies. Whether big top or strongmans is a better set is beyond the scope of this thread, although I suspect that strongmans wins (birds don't need the extra hit %, especially not with focus; pally could be a toss-up although some people think that for str/dex, strongmans is better).
4. Very important: The mace has a proc, rooting the target in place and making it impossible to kite. This has proven decisive in many battles.
5. Armor is slightly greater than the already impressive fortified armor. Strongmans has even more, but at the expense of dodge for inferior net survivability.
Finally, most important:
6. The dodge is impressive. Royal Sewer actually gave 8% a piece, versus 6% for fortified, so a fury shield + sword/royal sewer helm + plate offered more dodge, but it's the combination of high dodge, health regen, and high armor that give Big Top the best survivability of the sets. In fact, the dodge is so high that they will often dodge debuffs, rendering them ineffective. Fortified represented a tradeoff of dodge and hit for maximum health regen and armor.
Among the 3 sets, I would argue that strength got the biggest buff of them all compared to its 55 counterpart. For a strength set, it does not have any natural weaknesses. It has buffed both survivability and damage output.
Compare to the obedience set which has its armor and base damage buffed, but at the expense of crit. Dex mages and birds will find the increased mana regeneration useful though.
The glyph staff set appears to have only crit buffed. Compared to mm, it has lost mana regen (only about 26m/s in a fight, which for a mage is well, less than what I would like). It has also not buffed base damage nor armor. However, the significant increases in crit are what make it a great set. The wand set received a bigger buff compared to the mm wand set and gained in base damage, crit, and survivability, making it an arguably superior set to the staff. The wand set received a buff comparable to the big top set.
Thoughts on implications for PvP:
Other level 60 end game sets will be compared, as this is the most "fair".
Birds
Obedience dex birds seem to be able to kite more effectively, unlike their custom predecessors. Generally, the first beckon is critical. If beckon hits, then chances are the bear will be able to kill the bird via the "smash" combo. If beckon misses, the bird will probably will via kiting. All in all, big top closes the gap substantially compared to custom bird vs fortified bear.
Warbirds seem to be a toss-up more so than before. Previously, against fortified birds, bears could rely on the warbirds eventually running out of mana. Given the high regen of strongmans, this will not be happening. I would give the advantage still though to bears, although it seems to have narrowed.
Other Bears
Big top vs big top is usually a very long fight and in many cases, players end up in a draw. Need more data.
At this time, in big top vs strongmans, big top seems to have the upper hand in bear vs bear. The opposite is true for pallies and likely warbirds. Need more data here.
Mages
Dex mages can be extremely effective and win as many as 90% of battles through kiting. Their mana shields make them more resilient to the smash combo and the newer obedience set has a higher mana regen. All in all, dex mages are probably the most effective counter for big top bears. However, if the big top bear is successful in beckoning the dex mage into melee range and using their proc, unless the mage can quickly put some distance in between themselves, the dex mage will usually lose. This is a fight between crit and dodge.
Strongmans pallies has been described as a tough fight. Like bear vs bear, it is often a long fight. Need more data, but it looks like neither has a decisive advantage.
Big top is enormously more powerful against int mages than before. In fact, they will win as many as 90% of the time in big top bear vs mage glyph staff of charming fights. However, once the int mages begin using wand sets, things begin to change in the favor of int mages. The key for int mages and pallies appears to be debuffing early (dex mages generally should bombard at long distance). Like dex mage, it is very much a fight between crit and dodge.
Conclusions
While not the OP set that it was initially feared to be, the big top set represents a formidable challenge in both 1v1 and group fights. Big top bears are now by far the best candidates for flag capturing in CTF games as well.
Edit:
The important thing that I want to emphasize is that bears have made significant relative gains compared to mages and birds. They are not overpowered, but are a far more effective force than before. It would appear that STS has opted too make them more tanky than damage dealing, although the damage output is respectable. It was probably influenced by the increases in difficult that the Hallows would provide.
Comparisons to prior sets
Compared to it's immediate predecessor, it is clear that Big Top represents a significant upgrade. Compared to the 55 sets (fortified and royal sewer; for the purposes of this discussion, fury will be assumed to be a pally set). Unsurprisingly, like before, the 2h version does poorly, so this discussion will focus on the shield and sword:
1. There is now a buff to hit %. This is very important for strength bears and is probably more useful than just buffing damage (which happened in fortified), particularly when debuffed. Big top also somewhat buffs damage (5 per piece).
2. There is a respectable amount of health regen, although less than fortified, still very adequate.
3. High mana regen. Less useful for bears, but potentially makes big top viable for warbirds and pallies. Whether big top or strongmans is a better set is beyond the scope of this thread, although I suspect that strongmans wins (birds don't need the extra hit %, especially not with focus; pally could be a toss-up although some people think that for str/dex, strongmans is better).
4. Very important: The mace has a proc, rooting the target in place and making it impossible to kite. This has proven decisive in many battles.
5. Armor is slightly greater than the already impressive fortified armor. Strongmans has even more, but at the expense of dodge for inferior net survivability.
Finally, most important:
6. The dodge is impressive. Royal Sewer actually gave 8% a piece, versus 6% for fortified, so a fury shield + sword/royal sewer helm + plate offered more dodge, but it's the combination of high dodge, health regen, and high armor that give Big Top the best survivability of the sets. In fact, the dodge is so high that they will often dodge debuffs, rendering them ineffective. Fortified represented a tradeoff of dodge and hit for maximum health regen and armor.
Among the 3 sets, I would argue that strength got the biggest buff of them all compared to its 55 counterpart. For a strength set, it does not have any natural weaknesses. It has buffed both survivability and damage output.
Compare to the obedience set which has its armor and base damage buffed, but at the expense of crit. Dex mages and birds will find the increased mana regeneration useful though.
The glyph staff set appears to have only crit buffed. Compared to mm, it has lost mana regen (only about 26m/s in a fight, which for a mage is well, less than what I would like). It has also not buffed base damage nor armor. However, the significant increases in crit are what make it a great set. The wand set received a bigger buff compared to the mm wand set and gained in base damage, crit, and survivability, making it an arguably superior set to the staff. The wand set received a buff comparable to the big top set.
Thoughts on implications for PvP:
Other level 60 end game sets will be compared, as this is the most "fair".
Birds
Obedience dex birds seem to be able to kite more effectively, unlike their custom predecessors. Generally, the first beckon is critical. If beckon hits, then chances are the bear will be able to kill the bird via the "smash" combo. If beckon misses, the bird will probably will via kiting. All in all, big top closes the gap substantially compared to custom bird vs fortified bear.
Warbirds seem to be a toss-up more so than before. Previously, against fortified birds, bears could rely on the warbirds eventually running out of mana. Given the high regen of strongmans, this will not be happening. I would give the advantage still though to bears, although it seems to have narrowed.
Other Bears
Big top vs big top is usually a very long fight and in many cases, players end up in a draw. Need more data.
At this time, in big top vs strongmans, big top seems to have the upper hand in bear vs bear. The opposite is true for pallies and likely warbirds. Need more data here.
Mages
Dex mages can be extremely effective and win as many as 90% of battles through kiting. Their mana shields make them more resilient to the smash combo and the newer obedience set has a higher mana regen. All in all, dex mages are probably the most effective counter for big top bears. However, if the big top bear is successful in beckoning the dex mage into melee range and using their proc, unless the mage can quickly put some distance in between themselves, the dex mage will usually lose. This is a fight between crit and dodge.
Strongmans pallies has been described as a tough fight. Like bear vs bear, it is often a long fight. Need more data, but it looks like neither has a decisive advantage.
Big top is enormously more powerful against int mages than before. In fact, they will win as many as 90% of the time in big top bear vs mage glyph staff of charming fights. However, once the int mages begin using wand sets, things begin to change in the favor of int mages. The key for int mages and pallies appears to be debuffing early (dex mages generally should bombard at long distance). Like dex mage, it is very much a fight between crit and dodge.
Conclusions
While not the OP set that it was initially feared to be, the big top set represents a formidable challenge in both 1v1 and group fights. Big top bears are now by far the best candidates for flag capturing in CTF games as well.
Edit:
The important thing that I want to emphasize is that bears have made significant relative gains compared to mages and birds. They are not overpowered, but are a far more effective force than before. It would appear that STS has opted too make them more tanky than damage dealing, although the damage output is respectable. It was probably influenced by the increases in difficult that the Hallows would provide.