View Full Version : Base points to equip
Long story in short. Just like previous elites the base point requirements to equip L77-80 elites should be pretty high.
Thanks.
Marika1
10-08-2016, 12:48 PM
350 int points for magor, 350 points for warat, 350 for arzac. No more warat mages, no more warat dex bears, everybody learns to play their class or quit the game.
Burningdex
10-08-2016, 07:44 PM
350 int points for magor, 350 points for warat, 350 for arzac. No more warat mages, no more warat dex bears, everybody learns to play their class or quit the game.
47dex isnt nearly enough for a bear..
George Clooney
10-09-2016, 12:16 AM
Yep, in 76 cap str elites were the only useless ones out of the three, but it worked out since it didn't ruin the balance. Here that would completely trash it.
47dex isnt nearly enough for a bear..
We don't want bears to have all advantages, right? 90+ dodge , hit % is well over decent. What's this? PvP? Or arena of exploitation?
Yep, in 76 cap str elites were the only useless ones out of the three, but it worked out since it didn't ruin the balance. Here that would completely trash it.
Can you elaborate that how it would trash it? I'll comment after that.
Marika1
10-10-2016, 04:21 AM
You're missing the point George Clooney. As always.
Magic Sword
10-10-2016, 04:15 PM
u have like 150%+ hit pure str with warat anyways so idk how this would help
u have like 150%+ hit pure str with warat anyways so idk how this would help
We're now in a situation where pure str can have decent hit but still some people argue that it would trash it, its looking like just for the sake of argument they're saying it, now coming to ur point, it would definitely help, infect I would say that if anything smallest change ( in term of work needed to implement) can have positive effect on endgame PvP balance, this would do that.
Magic Sword
10-13-2016, 03:42 PM
We're now in a situation where pure str can have decent hit but still some people argue that it would trash it, its looking like just for the sake of argument they're saying it, now coming to ur point, it would definitely help, infect I would say that if anything smallest change ( in term of work needed to implement) can have positive effect on endgame PvP balance, this would do that.
1. the game isnt getting updated
2. stat req is not the problem for the lack of balance
3. the 76 bow was really the only one that was used because its damage was so much higher than the legendary bow. I mean the savage scythe has more max dmg and a faster speed than the elite L80 scimi
1. the game isnt getting updated
2. stat req is not the problem for the lack of balance
3. the 76 bow was really the only one that was used because its damage was so much higher than the legendary bow. I mean the savage scythe has more max dmg and a faster speed than the elite L80 scimi
1- The game is not updating that's the reason we can't expect much work on pl and address broader issues. Smallest amount of work is needed to do this. "the game isnt getting updated" does not mean, it can't be updated in future also does not mean that we can't suggest anything.
2- There are more issues in pvp balance it's true but as said earlier, those issues need much big attention and work at the same time. But it's not correct that stat req is not the problem for any kinda balance. Infect this small change can address much big issues.
3 - What do u wanna say about "76 bow" this point is totally unclear, each elite has higher stats, just compare L80 elites with Legendary items, it's hugh and hell & heaven difference not just your so called dmg difference was higher in "76bow". Anyway the whole point does not make any sense to me, just clarify.
George Clooney
10-14-2016, 12:00 AM
1- The game is not updating that's the reason we can't expect much work on pl and address broader issues. Smallest amount of work is needed to do this. "the game isnt getting updated" does not mean, it can't be updated in future also does not mean that we can't suggest anything.
2- There are more issues in pvp balance it's true but as said earlier, those issues need much big attention and work at the same time. But it's not correct that stat req is not the problem for any kinda balance. Infect this small change can address much big issues.
3 - What do u wanna say about "76 bow" this point is totally unclear, each elite has higher stats, just compare L80 elites with Legendary items, it's hugh and hell & heaven difference not just your so called dmg difference was higher in "76bow". Anyway the whole point does not make any sense to me, just clarify.
I'll try to break down my thought process on the issue. I totally agree that Elites of alternate stat attributes should not be available to any one class (i.e. bear shouldn't be able to equip an elite talon.) What I found flawed was the extremely high base required (350), but after changing your initial post, I completely agree.
Unfortunately, as aforementioned, there's plenty of reasons why Sts refuses to update. Even after Cinco to graciously added a NEW level pack to our game, we didn't hold our gratitude for long. There will always be something for people to whine about. IF a 3pc ring were to be granted to everyone, to "even the field," there would be people asking for founders helms too, and angel sets. Then people would ask for a forgotten event again, and L71 elite reintroduction etc.
All in all, in a hypothetical sense, I agree that balancing it by increasing the base points for each specific item should be raised, but I think that It's not worth changing, as there is more variety of builds and such in the game right now, and it's not impossible to beat anyone.
Magic Sword
10-14-2016, 01:51 PM
1- The game is not updating that's the reason we can't expect much work on pl and address broader issues. Smallest amount of work is needed to do this. "the game isnt getting updated" does not mean, it can't be updated in future also does not mean that we can't suggest anything.
2- There are more issues in pvp balance it's true but as said earlier, those issues need much big attention and work at the same time. But it's not correct that stat req is not the problem for any kinda balance. Infect this small change can address much big issues.
3 - What do u wanna say about "76 bow" this point is totally unclear, each elite has higher stats, just compare L80 elites with Legendary items, it's hugh and hell & heaven difference not just your so called dmg difference was higher in "76bow". Anyway the whole point does not make any sense to me, just clarify.
I'm just saying the 76 bow was really the only higher req item that was even a good weapon to use. The 76 staff and hammer sacrificed way to much defense barely increasing damage, where the 75 talon was really only good with the egg shield due to the dodge which is essentially the whole defense for dex builds
The 76 elites were the only elites with huge stat requirements, the 71 elites only required around 15 extra of the stat so your statement that all other elites isn't really a valid precedent.
Also the 77-80 elites do have higher stat requirements and then the "improved elite" armors and helms have even higher stat requirements so you kinda were mentioning a concept already implemented.
This really is a non-issue
There will always be something for people to whine about.
I'll start with this, although this has not been said directly to this thread but to "this kinda threads". I've watching forum community, I've to say that, if Ya folks say "stop whining" "stop crying" etc to this kinda situation in forums, it actually shows your INABILITY to understand the basic purpose of forums & to do debate in a logical/constructive way. The irony is, you people complain about the forum community.
If someone with 2pc play against 3pcs, it's nothing wrong for him to make thread about it in a non spammy and proper way, it's different matter that this should be addressed or not. Doing such isn't degradation of forum rather purpose of discussion board aka forums. The degradation of forum happens when forumers tag that as "crying" and suggest to "stop crying", "stop whining" etc, and it's kinda bullying when you folks do it all together.
I'll try to break down my thought process on the issue. I totally agree that Elites of alternate stat attributes should not be available to any one class (i.e. bear shouldn't be able to equip an elite talon.) What I found flawed was the extremely high base required (350), but after changing your initial post, I completely agree.
I never changed my initial post, neither said anything like that you mentioned. I said something about devs and JustG edited that out, fair enough. You talked about CLASS SPECIFIC GEAR that never happened in PL before neither I TALKED about that. Bear would be able to equip talon even if base point requirement is high but he would not be able to equip str/int gear at the same time and his str/int point would be low because dex point would be pretty high.
Unfortunately, as aforementioned, there's plenty of reasons why Sts refuses to update. Even after Cinco to graciously added a NEW level pack to our game, we didn't hold our gratitude for long. There will always be something for people to whine about. IF a 3pc ring were to be granted to everyone, to "even the field," there would be people asking for founders helms too, and angel sets. Then people would ask for a forgotten event again, and L71 elite reintroduction etc.
On the contrary there's is ONLY ONE reason why sts refuses to update, business perspective they have another game that generate way much more money than pl would do with same amount of work. There's two point, the first is, asking for more or asking for something old that has not been tagged with discontinued is not bad the way you're trying to project because that's what approximately all the gamers want not just PL-ers, it's different matter devs wanna put more effort on that game or not and as for me I never cared about recolored and similar new content for long time, all I wanted balance.
Secondly, you're comparing this pvp balance issue with "There will always be something for people to whine about" then let me tell you, this is not just any small issue, the pvp is literally at it's worst condition but still I didn't suggest to work hard rather something that can be done easily.
All in all, in a hypothetical sense, I agree that balancing it by increasing the base points for each specific item should be raised, but I think that It's not worth changing, as there is more variety of builds and such in the game right now, and it's not impossible to beat anyone.
Actually there's not much variety of builds practically, because players exploiting the OP builds. That's the point if it implemented then those op builds would be vanish to an extent.
It was never "impossible to beat anyone" so whey there have been enormous amount of PvP balance threads in past? and I totally believe you at least supported some, no? what a logic.
I'm just saying the 76 bow was really the only higher req item that was even a good weapon to use. The 76 staff and hammer sacrificed way to much defense barely increasing damage, where the 75 talon was really only good with the egg shield due to the dodge which is essentially the whole defense for dex builds
The 76 elites were the only elites with huge stat requirements, the 71 elites only required around 15 extra of the stat so your statement that all other elites isn't really a valid precedent.
Also the 77-80 elites do have higher stat requirements and then the "improved elite" armors and helms have even higher stat requirements so you kinda were mentioning a concept already implemented.
This really is a non-issue
That's because previously elite were two handed weapons and two handed weapons other than dex were never viable that much mostly. This time we have all.
Where did I say "all other elites"? I said "like previous elites".
The whole point is to make refrain players from equipping mix gear (eg str+dex) and go towards pure, what you saying "improved elite" or WHATEVER does not matter neither implemented.
Ya calling it a non issue but didn't even understand this small easy topic, otherwise you would not say - "so you kinda were mentioning a concept already implemented"
and George would not say - "I totally agree that Elites of alternate stat attributes should not be available to any one class (i.e. bear shouldn't be able to equip an elite talon.)"
kinda funny :)
Magic Sword
10-15-2016, 08:13 PM
Like I said if you are basing it off previous elites, some have much higher stat requirements and some don't.
These have slightly higher requirements already so I really think it is a non-issue, not sure how you misunderstood that part
I guess your real issue is being able to equip two different stat elites at the same time. I see no reason to not allow people to go hybrid, basically every cap you have been able to equip the best dex weapon with str armor and shield. For instance, I belive there were some people who used 66 str helm and armor with 66 bow back in fang cap.
There's so many issues with the balance but this isn't the problem
And again this isn't going to change anything because the game no longer gets updated
No sure why so many players can't accept this
Like I said if you are basing it off previous elites, some have much higher stat requirements and some don't.
These have slightly higher requirements already so I really think it is a non-issue, not sure how you misunderstood that part
I guess your real issue is being able to equip two different stat elites at the same time. I see no reason to not allow people to go hybrid, basically every cap you have been able to equip the best dex weapon with str armor and shield. For instance, I belive there were some people who used 66 str helm and armor with 66 bow back in fang cap.
There's so many issues with the balance but this isn't the problem
And again this isn't going to change anything because the game no longer gets updated
No sure why so many players can't accept this
Get your facts right before arguing here. There's no difference of base point requirement between pink to elite to so called "improved elites" there's only small difference between helm to armor/wep etc and that's even not difference from pink to elite to arzac/warar/magor that's difference between helm to armor/weps etc.
If you're unable to understand this basic difference then how would imagine the benefits? As a result you're taking this as non issue.
Let me tell you, this is not a problem, rather consider as solution of problem (balance problem) also yes it was possible to go hybrid in past caps BUT WITH PINKS NOT WITH ELITES.
PvP is already disbalanced and hybrid makes it worst. if you really do endgame PvP which I doubt, you should think twice about the matter and then argue, thank you.
Lastly. You don't need to keep saying that pl no longer gets updated specially to someone who have been here all the time and know the whole story, this is not ur duty, if you tried to inform that would be fine. It's devs concern that they'll update or not.
Magic Sword
10-16-2016, 09:31 PM
i need to get my fact straight for sure
here we have the L80 elite of the ao2 robe
156035
then here we have one of the better versions based off the ao3 robe
156036
200 = 205 in the factual world apparently
also yes it was possible to go hybrid in past caps BUT WITH PINKS NOT WITH ELITES.
156037
so requires 163 str
156038
and here you clearly see at 71 you have plenty of attributes to be able to equip str and dex
obviously you cant have them both at the same time because this is the first cap that you have been able to to have 2 slots(excluding vanities and rings) filled with elites at the same time
When I said "with eliteS" I also meant that. I didn't mean going hybrid with one elite.
As for L80 screenies you posted is just some variants out there with negligible base requirements whearas what I meant was - you don't need more base point requirement if you wanna wear elite rather than pink version for example sentinel pink & elite has the same requirement.
You can't say with this variant that it is a concept already implemented. Whearas the whole purpose IS TO REFRAIN PLAYERS FROM EQUIPING MIX GEAR & go pure TO AN EXTENT (not totally pure but close to pure) and if you can understand this, you'll know that this concept is not implemented at all but in past.
Magic Sword
10-17-2016, 07:24 PM
When I said "with eliteS" I also meant that. I didn't mean going hybrid with one elite.
and here you clearly see at 71 you have plenty of attributes to be able to equip str and dex
obviously you cant have them both at the same time because this is the first cap that you have been able to to have 2 slots(excluding vanities and rings) filled with elites at the same time
actually just realized I was totally wrong you totally could be hybrid at 71 with non-vanity black dragon and a 71 elite since all 71 elites req 163 of whichever stat
str gear with esb, yes pls
As for L80 screenies you posted is just some variants out there with negligible base requirements whearas what I meant was - you don't need more base point requirement if you wanna wear elite rather than pink version for example sentinel pink & elite has the same requirement.
Get your facts right before arguing here. There's no difference of base point requirement between pink to elite to so called "improved elites" there's only small difference between helm to armor/wep etc and that's even not
if only I could get my facts right on this one
I was incorrect on the pinks i had been comparing a L77 so i mistook the stats for being lower, pinks are basically trash this cap anyways though, elites are essentially the pinks now
You can't say with this variant that it is a concept already implemented. Whearas the whole purpose IS TO REFRAIN PLAYERS FROM EQUIPING MIX GEAR & go pure TO AN EXTENT (not totally pure but close to pure) and if you can understand this, you'll know that this concept is not implemented at all but in past.
I really disagree thats one of the great things about PL mixing and matching class gear, unlike the SL or AL where gear is almost totally class specific, theres so much customization available to PL builds
Good to see that you realized the mistakes and I didn't read much those para.
When you say pinks r trash this cap that's because elites stats r pretty high, thus serving the purpose of elites. If you compare then you'll find l77 pinks r better than previous cap l77 pinks. So theres nothing wrong to make elites base point requirement pretty high and it won't be against orthodox pl behavior that's because, these r not pinks like the way pl meant to be hybrid with pinks as you mentioned along with the fact that it will only impact endgame not twink levels and specially because these reasons -
First off, I never suggested class specific gear, it's different. For ex a bear can go str/dex/int so a bear can be pure (not totally) str or pure dex or pure int, similarly all the classes can do it.
There are a lot things can be done to balance endgame PvP but I didn't even bother to suggest those because that would be pretty complex & harder to implement, and we don't even expect much that devs would work hard in this game but if its something easy they may take interest. What I've suggested is pretty simple and could have nice impact on balance .
Let me ask, what customization? If someone get a op build, would he change his op build for the sake of customization? No. There's no customization only exploitation of op builds.
Magic Sword
10-18-2016, 04:54 PM
Good to see that you realized the mistakes
1 mistake about pinks which no one uses
When you say pinks r trash this cap that's because elites stats r pretty high, thus serving the purpose of elites. If you compare then you'll find l77 pinks r better than previous cap l77 pinks. So theres nothing wrong to make elites base point requirement pretty high and it won't be against orthodox pl behavior that's because, these r not pinks like the way pl meant to be hybrid with pinks as you mentioned along with the fact that it will only impact endgame not twink levels and specially because these reasons -
idk if i understood that, heres what i got from it:
When you say pinks r trash this cap that's because elites stats r pretty high, thus serving the purpose of elites.
"Elites are meant to be better than pinks" I agree
If you compare then you'll find l77 pinks r better than previous cap l77 pinks.
"New cap stuff is better than old cap stuff" obviously, thats how the entire game has worked thus far from L50 to L51, most of the oranges would beat L50 sets with set bonuses, nothing new here
So theres nothing wrong to make elites base point requirement pretty high
^pretty straight forward; I don't think theres anything wrong with it, but i aslo don't see any need for it, change for the sake of change...
and it won't be against orthodox pl behavior that's because, these r not pinks like the way pl meant to be hybrid with pinks as you mentioned along with the fact that it will only impact endgame not twink levels and specially because these reasons -
"PL was only meant to allow you to be hybrid with pinks not elites though" Elites have been dropped for 3 cap areas now 71 which as I alrdy said allows you to be hybrid with elites, 76 which you could not be hybrid while equipping elites, and now L80 allowing 4 more level of characters to be fully hybrid with elite gear. Obviously they intended for this to be possible. Does this make some builds to be considered op? More than likely. But what cap has not had an op build or set.
First off, I never suggested class specific gear, it's different. For ex a bear can go str/dex/int so a bear can be pure (not totally) str or pure dex or pure int, similarly all the classes can do it. I was just referring to builds in their other 2 games AL and SL
There are a lot things can be done to balance endgame PvP but I didn't even bother to suggest those because that would be pretty complex & harder to implement, and we don't even expect much that devs would work hard in this game but if its something easy they may take interest. What I've suggested is pretty simple and could have nice impact on balance.
It is simple but its very necessary. Also if they do this really simple thing off you suggestion, why shouldn't they go ahead and do every other little simple thing, lowering the dodge on all the elites or changing the stat increases on a couple buffs. We just gotta accept no more updates, no ones happy about it but thats how it is now
Let me ask, what customization? If someone get a op build, would he change his op build for the sake of customization? No. There's no customization only exploitation of op builds.
If it's so op why don't you just copy it and beat them to prove you are better
Its repetitive now, go read everything CAREFULLY, most of the things answered already.
When you say pinks r trash this cap, then definitely I had to mention that pinks r trash because elites r there not BY DEFAULT.
Go suggest about lowering dodge and buffing cuple of things, if it's justified and in proper direction I'd support that and I wouldn't argue with u for sake of argument the exact way you're trying to do here. As I kept saying its somewhat I suggested is to make way bigger impact on balance with minimal work its just you totally unable to understand it.
if it's so op why don't you just copy it and beat em to prove you are better
There have been enormous amount of threads & post regarding PvP balance and almost every pro pvp-er who used forum made their voice against PvP disbalance. The answer could be same? Switch to op build/class and do PvP, how many times you said that if you were there?
Hypocrisy/irony is at its best.
BTW. Do you endgame PvP?
Magic Sword
10-19-2016, 09:09 AM
Hypocrisy/irony is at its best.
BTW. Do you endgame PvP?
Please explain anything I did or said that was hypocritical.
I have pvpd endgame this cap, not so much anymore since the game is dead
Please explain anything I did or said that was hypocritical.
I have pvpd endgame this cap, not so much anymore since the game is dead
I explained b4 saying it :)
Magic Sword
10-19-2016, 03:24 PM
I explained b4 saying it :)
no you just said a bunch of stuff none of which describes hypocrisy and then said hypocrisy after it :)
hy·poc·ri·sy
həˈpäkrəsē/
noun
the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform
heres an example
Get your facts right before arguing here.
Fair standard to have; let's argue with accurate information, I concur.
Oh that same post
There's no difference of base point requirement between[...]elite to so called "improved elites"-FALSE
[...]
yes it was possible to go hybrid in past caps BUT WITH PINKS NOT WITH ELITES.-Yes you could
Does the behavior match the standard?
Oh my. Let me ask, what's "improved elites"? nothing actual term but your kinda definition, Arzac/warat/magor CAN ALSO BE DEFINED AS "IMPROVED ELITES" infect that's what came to my mind reading your so called "improved elites" and you know that what I said is true because arzac does not need more base point requirement than xar and same to warat/magor.
I already explained, I said PINKS not Pink, I said elites not elite means now we can wear multiple elites not just one, which was not possible in past.
And you argue with accurate information whereas you yourself accepted your mistake (that's good side of you tho) and several times I proved you wrong.
There was the solid hypocritical point that I said, you ignored.
When you say that "if it's so op why don't you just copy it and beat em to prove you are better "
Let me ask, how many times you said this when there have been enormous amount of pvp balance thread in past? if this is your logic then you could say this to all those threads/ posts, go change to op build/class problem solved. This is exactly the double standard I mentioned
Lastly it kinda repetitive now, I'll try to refrain from wasting more time on you specially someone who don't even do endgame pvp and try to justify things related to endgame pvp.
Percense
10-20-2016, 06:31 AM
I kinda agree with that since there are only hybrids, not just one class.
Magic Sword
10-20-2016, 02:44 PM
Oh my. Let me ask, what's "improved elites"? nothing actual term but your kinda definition, Arzac/warat/magor CAN ALSO BE DEFINED AS "IMPROVED ELITES" infect that's what came to my mind reading your so called "improved elites" and you know that what I said is true because arzac does not need more base point requirement than xar and same to warat/magor.
I can see how you would think i meant warat, thats fair but there is a difference between different elites, so you could have inferred what I meant by my description
I already explained, I said PINKS not Pink, I said elites not elite means now we can wear multiple elites not just one, which was not possible in past.
Elite black dragon helm and armor with esb, ems, ewt, or one of the quest elites
And you argue with accurate information whereas you yourself accepted your mistake (that's good side of you tho) and several times I proved you wrong.
I wasn't the one that said said to argue with accurate facts, so it wasn't my standard so i couldnt have broken it
There was the solid hypocritical point that I said, you ignored.
When you say that "if it's so op why don't you just copy it and beat em to prove you are better "
Let me ask, how many times you said this when there have been enormous amount of pvp balance thread in past? if this is your logic then you could say this to all those threads/ posts, go change to op build/class problem solved. This is exactly the double standard I mentioned
I don't have to have the same opinions about every balance idea, some I agree with, this one I dont and dont ever think it will happen
I have said that same concept to friends or used it myself use and op build to combat an op build, so its far from hypocritical
Sure I dont post it on every balance thread because im not a robot, i dont have to have the exact same response to everything
Same repetitive points that I ALREADY JUSTIFIED, Read carefully I'm not gonna waste much time here.
Iheybeautiful
10-21-2016, 04:38 AM
all those essays
Cinco
10-21-2016, 08:42 AM
Closing this thread 'cause I'm mean.