Dilemma with Numa Contest winner..

[Ebalere]

Ok, so here's the Skinny. I have found and paid all winners of the race, except for 2nd. Today, a contestant who didn't win, asked me who the winners were, I told him who, and told him that I'm still looking for 2nd place to hand out his prize. He asked who second place was, I told him, he disappeared. 2 minutes later, the 2nd place winner comes online and pm's me for his prize.

Being the suspicious Operative that I am, I asked if they were the same person. The winner replied "No, that was my brother. We share a device." I said that I wished they would have told me prior to racing, as I would've only let one of them race, to avoid someone entering twice with different toons. I then had to leave for turkey dinner, because I'm Canadian.

A little while after, the original older brother asks why I didn't pay his little brother his winnings, and mentions that he's only 7 years old and that they share an account. I state that account sharing is a direct violation of ToS, and that they unfortunately are disqualified. Another thing that bothers me is that the apparent "7 year old" types and chats like a 17 year old.

What I'm getting from all this is that the dude entered on two toons and has some story about his little brother, because no 7 year old I've ever met talks like he did. And, even if the story is true, they are sharing an account (self admitted), and that is a violation of ToS, and impossible to prove it is two seperate people. I feel they should have mentioned it before entering, and I think a disqualification is in order. What do you guys think? I'm not trying to save myself 65k, as I will bump the winners up and pay out accordingly. If Samhayne can comment on this it would be appreciated.

Note to future contest holders: Make sure everyone uses a seperate device for these kind of contests, as it just creates complications later on.

[SUPAPRODIGY]

Sorry to hear that but i would just give him 10% of the Price for winning..

At least give him something if not he will constantly send u hate messages and flame on ur threads... If not dont give him anything he simply Violated TOS...

[Drues]

Good awareness bro!
And I'm Canadian to "eh" :)

[Lowlyspy]

I just reviewed ur contest announcement thread and i have to tell you, you never said a person couldnt enter with more than one toon. I know a lot of people will disagree, in fact i disagree with myself, but that is a huge loophole which he did exploit but you didnt ban anyone against so technically you cant deny him. HOWEVER, if he was indeed sharing an account then that is against ToS rules and he should be disqualified.

[Ebalere]

Sorry to hear that but i would just give him 10% of the Price for winning..

At least give him something if not he will constantly send u hate messages and flame on ur threads... If not dont give him anything he simply Violated TOS...

Idk, if he flames me and sends hate messages I will report and ignore.. not worried about that. I'm worried that one single guy cheated in my contest by entering twice and if that's the case, he deserves nothing. If it was his little brother and he's a 7 year old genius who is smart enough to argue with me in a very intelligent manner, yet too young to start his own account, then he doesn't need any money because the account will be banned soon anyway for violating ToS.

Edit: Lowly, you are right, but he's already admitted in game that he shares the same account with his brother and it was his brother who raced and won. And I didn't think of that loophole prior to the contest, but I only allowed one forum account to enter, and the only reason he got two names up there is because he approached me in game and asked as the "little brother". If he came on here and said me and my brother want to enter, I would have nipped it in the bud. I had to expand the number of entries for him to compete even. And never once thru the whole contest did he mention anything about it. Just seems underhanded to me, and I'm reluctant to give away the prize money to someone acting so shady..

[Conradin]

Just an idea but maybe he ment to say 17? And i know the devs frown on account sharing but it was hardly hurting anyone in this case.

[Nourish]

I find no harm or consequences needed for brothers using one account. Maybe they can only afford one device instead of two? It's not like they live in different homes, it's just they use DIFFERENT characters on the SAME device.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm flaming because I'm not :) ToS stands as it is but think if you were in their place, even if he lied and said seven instead of seventeen.

[Ebalere]

Just an idea but maybe he ment to say 17? And i know the devs frown on account sharing but it was hardly hurting anyone in this case.

No, he said his little brother shares his account because he doesn't know how to set up a hotmail, and that he's "only" 7. Doubt that's a typo.. whats fishy is, he's too young to set up a email, but he can sit there and argue with me that his older brother has an android and he doesn't, etc..

And in this specific instance, account sharing is hurting what would have been the real 2nd 3rd and 4th place winners. Keep in mind if this IS one person, the original toon he entered as, lost. It was the "little brother" who joined late, came in second, and hasn't been online since he raced.

Also keep in mind I intend on paying out the prize money to those who deserve it, so I'm purely doing this for the fairness of the contest, and whether he is or isn't one person, I don't gain anything from this.

Basically,

If he's:

1 person: he lied to me and said it was two seperate people, implying he knew he was wronging the system, hardly deserving of any prize.

2 people: he's admittedly sharing an account, and just like I told him in game, it doesn't matter if it's harmless, if he's only 7, or if they're siamese twins. Account sharing is against ToS, and therefore should disqualify him from the race.

[Ebalere]

I find no harm or consequences needed for brothers using one account. Maybe they can only afford one device instead of two? It's not like they live in different homes, it's just they use DIFFERENT characters on the SAME device.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm flaming because I'm not :) ToS stands as it is but think if you were in their place, even if he lied and said seven instead of seventeen.

Meh, you can use seperate accounts with one device, no need to be on same account. The reason why this is a violation of ToS, is for this exact thing. I have no way of proving if it was the same person or not, and since he insists it's two different people, he didn't loophole my contest by adding an alt, but he raised another issue by saying that. I think this is better answered by a dev, speculation alone won't help decide what should be done. I'll be hanging on to the prize money until I get a straight answer from a dev I think.

I have put myself in his shoes, and I'm also putting myself in mine. I just don't feel like handing out 65k to someone who is either blatantly lying to my face, or cheating the system to win. It kinda goes without saying that a contest like that can only be entered by one toon, linked to one forum name. I thank you all for your opinions, and I generally feel the same, except I really dislike being cheated out of my money, not to mention the people who donated.

[Kahlua]

Unfortunately, you're gonna have to pay him :(. If this loophole wasn't addressed in the original contest rules, you have to abide by the rules that were stated. Think of it as a learning experience for next time.

Is it wrong of him to do that? Yes. Is it unfair that he got to enter twice? Yes. Does that change the fact that he won a prize under the the given rules? No. You'll have to pay him now, and make sure this rule is addressed in future contests. Maybe not allow him to enter other contests you run. It'll cause more problems and issues if you don't pay him then if you just bite the bullet and pay the kid, letting everyone know that he exploited a loophole and there's nothing we can do about it.

[Ebalere]

Unfortunately, you're gonna have to pay him :(. If this loophole wasn't addressed in the original contest rules, you have to abide by the rules that were stated. Think of it as a learning experience for next time.

Is it wrong of him to do that? Yes. Is it unfair that he got to enter twice? Yes. Does that change the fact that he won a prize under the the given rules? No. You'll have to pay him now, and make sure this rule is addressed in future contests. Maybe not allow him to enter other contests you run. It'll cause more problems and issues if you don't pay him then if you just bite the bullet and pay the kid, letting everyone know that he exploited a loophole and there's nothing we can do about it.

If it's two people on one account, he should be disqualified, as he entered under broken rules.

If it's just one guy, then he lied to ensure he could recieve the winnings, as he obviously knew from what he told me that entering twice isn't really legit.

The way i see it, if he would of just said they were both him, I woulda had to review my rules and ultimately end up paying out. Since he admitted they are two people on one account, he effectively shot himself in the foot, IMO.

[Kahlua]

Yes but you're not an STS employee. Their rules are enforced by their staff. We can only preach them. If he won under your rules, you'll have to follow through with the transaction. If STS decides that he was in fact sharing a device and violated the TOS, then his account will be dealt with. But by those terms, you'll have to pay.

It's not right or fair...but that's how these things work.

[Kahlua]

Also, I don't see anything in the TOS about sharing a device =\....all I see is that you cannot share an account. He could have 2 email addresses that are used to log in, making them different accounts. Even using the same email log in and different characters under that email is the same thing as having alternates. Yes, they share a stash...but they cant both play at the same time.

[Ebalere]

Also, I don't see anything in the TOS about sharing a device =\....all I see is that you cannot share an account. He could have 2 email addresses that are used to log in, making them different accounts. Even using the same email log in and different characters under that email is the same thing as having alternates. Yes, they share a stash...but they cant both play at the same time.

No offense, but I'm not simple.. I made sure he was using the same account, and not two seperate emails, hence all the talk about his lil bro not being able to set up his own. And, I know I'm not a STS employee, but if he entered and won whilst violating ToS, he should be disqualified.

Example. You're driving a car, but you have no license. Someone blows a red light, and puts you in the hospital. The red light runner walks away scot-free. And not only do you cover your own hospital expenses, you owe buddy a new car.

Why?

If you had been following the rules, and not driving without a license, you would have not been there in the first place to get T-boned. You lose. This is how it works in Canada, and probably US as well.

So, I thank you all for your input, but I still don't feel right about handing over 65k to this guy. So I will pm Sam, get him to review the thread, and tell me what he thinks I should do. I don't really care, as I will be giving the money out either way, I just don't wanna give everyones hard earned money to an account that's gonna be banned anyway, nor do I want to screw the rightful winners out of money. Thanks again guys, I'll let ya know what happens, unless it's something I can't discuss.

[n00b13st]

In addition to the account sharing, the "little brother" is under the required age (13) required by the TOS. So for more than one reason the "2nd place winner" should not just not win, they should be banned. They are repeatedly violating the TOS and one of the main reasons I play here and not other similar games is the TOS and the enforcement of it.

Don't swear. Don't be racist, hateful, glorify sexual violence, don't engage in any behavior that would get you arrested and jailed IRL. This is a game and seems to be intended to be a safe place for kids. There are only a couple of places I spend my entertainment money - I almost never go to movies, I very rarely go out to dinner - this is my gaming home so long as STS defends it being a fun and safe place to be.



Ok, so here's the Skinny. I have found and paid all winners of the race, except for 2nd. Today, a contestant who didn't win, asked me who the winners were, I told him who, and told him that I'm still looking for 2nd place to hand out his prize. He asked who second place was, I told him, he disappeared. 2 minutes later, the 2nd place winner comes online and pm's me for his prize.

Being the suspicious Operative that I am, I asked if they were the same person. The winner replied "No, that was my brother. We share a device." I said that I wished they would have told me prior to racing, as I would've only let one of them race, to avoid someone entering twice with different toons. I then had to leave for turkey dinner, because I'm Canadian.

A little while after, the original older brother asks why I didn't pay his little brother his winnings, and mentions that he's only 7 years old and that they share an account. I state that account sharing is a direct violation of ToS, and that they unfortunately are disqualified. Another thing that bothers me is that the apparent "7 year old" types and chats like a 17 year old.

What I'm getting from all this is that the dude entered on two toons and has some story about his little brother, because no 7 year old I've ever met talks like he did. And, even if the story is true, they are sharing an account (self admitted), and that is a violation of ToS, and impossible to prove it is two seperate people. I feel they should have mentioned it before entering, and I think a disqualification is in order. What do you guys think? I'm not trying to save myself 65k, as I will bump the winners up and pay out accordingly. If Samhayne can comment on this it would be appreciated.

Note to future contest holders: Make sure everyone uses a seperate device for these kind of contests, as it just creates complications later on.

[thequickone]

Hi Ebalere. Sorry you have been put in what is indeed proving to be a tough spot. :( I also believe payment is in order, though it pains me to say so. Let me explain:


1 person: he lied to me and said it was two seperate people, implying he knew he was wronging the system, hardly deserving of any prize.
Unfortunately, lying is not against the rules you laid out for the event. Just as Lowlyspy did, I have combed through your OP for the event (twice, in fact), as well as the various follow-up posts, and could not come up with a clear violation. He may have been purposely misleading you and "wronging the system", which would indeed make him unworthy. However, he did not technically break any rules in this regard.


2 people: he's admittedly sharing an account, and just like I told him in game, it doesn't matter if it's harmless, if he's only 7, or if they're siamese twins. Account sharing is against ToS, and therefore should disqualify him from the race.
You are correct, account sharing is against the STS ToS. However, your event rules did not require compliance with the ToS, either. Nor should they have. In this case, you will have to leave the investigation and potential assignment of penalty to STS. In the event STS investigates and discovers a ToS violation, they will take the appropriate disciplinary measures. Look at it this way, the winner(s) may be banned shortly after receiving their prize. Keep in mind, if they were only sharing a device and not an account, the ToS would not have been violated. However, it sounds like you clearly recall them stating "account". Bottom line; you cannot get to the bottom of this one, nor should you. But STS can...

There are lessons to be learned all around:

First (Ebalere), the rules need to be very clearly stated. Some additional "catch-all" rules; i.e., "no unsportsman-like conduct", "no lying", and "the event organizer's interpretation will be considered final in the event of a dispute" couldn't hurt. Next time the Speedway opens, ask each participant "is this your first and only time competing in this event". Maybe we have some RL attorneys among the ranks of SL players that could draft/review the next event's rules...

Second (contestant), follow ALL applicable rules. In the event of uncertainty, ask. If you do not, situations like this arise. At best, you may be out 65k. At worst, ban hammer.

Third (me), I really should have competed. Maybe I would have gotten second place, and we would not be having this conversation! ;)

Hope this helps!

[Lowlyspy]

Maybe we have some RL attorneys among the ranks of SL players that could draft/review the next event's rules...
Chairman of his school's Junior Attorney's Association reporting for duty. I would be happy to do this next time the Speedway opens its doors.

[Kahlua]

Wow if that's the way your accident system works in Canada, you should consider moving lol :( I'm not 100% sure (about 99.99% sure though) that depending on what state you live in, if you are not at fault, regardless of the circumstances, you will not pay for the accident. If someone runs a red light and hit's you, they pay for the damages, your hospital bills, and will lose their license for some period of time if they have enough strikes against them. You, on the other hand, will probably get your license (which you don't even have yet) for 6 months or so, meaning you just can't get it for that time. As long as it's 100% their fault, and in the example you posted, it is, you will not pay for the vast majority if not all of the fees. A good defense attorney can maybe get the charges to 50/50 for both parties, but that's it.


Sorry off topic, just had to reply :D

[Cabero]

IMO I would just pay them and in the future try to cover every possibility to avoid complications.

[Ebalere]

Hi Ebalere. Sorry you have been put in what is indeed proving to be a tough spot. :( I also believe payment is in order, though it pains me to say so. Let me explain:


1 person: he lied to me and said it was two seperate people, implying he knew he was wronging the system, hardly deserving of any prize.
Unfortunately, lying is not against the rules you laid out for the event. Just as Lowlyspy did, I have combed through your OP for the event (twice, in fact), as well as the various follow-up posts, and could not come up with a clear violation. He may have been purposely misleading you and "wronging the system", which would indeed make him unworthy. However, he did not technically break any rules in this regard.


2 people: he's admittedly sharing an account, and just like I told him in game, it doesn't matter if it's harmless, if he's only 7, or if they're siamese twins. Account sharing is against ToS, and therefore should disqualify him from the race.
You are correct, account sharing is against the STS ToS. However, your event rules did not require compliance with the ToS, either. Nor should they have. In this case, you will have to leave the investigation and potential assignment of penalty to STS. In the event STS investigates and discovers a ToS violation, they will take the appropriate disciplinary measures. Look at it this way, the winner(s) may be banned shortly after receiving their prize. Keep in mind, if they were only sharing a device and not an account, the ToS would not have been violated. However, it sounds like you clearly recall them stating "account". Bottom line; you cannot get to the bottom of this one, nor should you. But STS can...

There are lessons to be learned all around:

First (Ebalere), the rules need to be very clearly stated. Some additional "catch-all" rules; i.e., "no unsportsman-like conduct", "no lying", and "the event organizer's interpretation will be considered final in the event of a dispute" couldn't hurt. Next time the Speedway opens, ask each participant "is this your first and only time competing in this event". Maybe we have some RL attorneys among the ranks of SL players that could draft/review the next event's rules...

Second (contestant), follow ALL applicable rules. In the event of uncertainty, ask. If you do not, situations like this arise. At best, you may be out 65k. At worst, ban hammer.

Third (me), I really should have competed. Maybe I would have gotten second place, and we would not be having this conversation! ;)

Hope this helps!

Well, I will pay him, I just don't like it. I understand that I didn't make the contest a legal document, I laid out the rules with faith in people not to abuse it. It's too bad, and discouraging. Sorry to all who donated, your money may possibly go to a short-lived account. I already said if it is one person then I will pay up, even if he lied, but I guess I'm forced to either way. Oh well, thats the way she goes.

[Rodvik]

Wow if that's the way your accident system works in Canada, you should consider moving lol :( I'm not 100% sure (about 99.99% sure though) that depending on what state you live in, if you are not at fault, regardless of the circumstances, you will not pay for the accident. If someone runs a red light and hit's you, they pay for the damages, your hospital bills, and will lose their license for some period of time if they have enough strikes against them. You, on the other hand, will probably get your license (which you don't even have yet) for 6 months or so, meaning you just can't get it for that time. As long as it's 100% their fault, and in the example you posted, it is, you will not pay for the vast majority if not all of the fees. A good defense attorney can maybe get the charges to 50/50 for both parties, but that's it.


Sorry off topic, just had to reply :D
Well this is under the assumption that the person that hit you has insurance. Theres alot of uninsured drivers out there. If they dont have insurance they can pay your bills with potential property they might have. Which normally someone who doesnt have insurance usually dont have any property. I've been hit by an uninsured drunk driver before I got nothing from him, thankfully my insurance company paid for my repairs due to the ccircumstances but i still had to pay my 500 dollar deductible out of my own pocket. That guy in the long run did 11k damage to my truck, not to mention i had just put brand new 22 inch rims on my truck and he messed those up so i was out another 2 grand + had to buy a whole new set for another 2 grand...lol my insurance company ended up suing im pretty sure.

[Serbian]

Its simple, he admitted to going against the ToS by sharing so he automatically disqualified himself. No winnings to be paid. He will not be angry with this decision because in his head he was expecting this outcome. I would not give him anything. Do not worry about it. Also do not worry about "saving" 65k and looking cheap. You are handing out prizes...thats not cheap lol.

[Ebalere]

That's for Dev's to deal with, I'm gonna pay him.

[Acyer]

Hey Ebalere just pay him bro. I totally agree with ya but its not worth the hassle.

[BodMaster]

Well, I will pay him, I just don't like it. I understand that I didn't make the contest a legal document, I laid out the rules with faith in people not to abuse it. It's too bad, and discouraging. Sorry to all who donated, your money may possibly go to a short-lived account. I already said if it is one person then I will pay up, even if he lied, but I guess I'm forced to either way. Oh well, thats the way she goes.

My poor credits :( (Im not rich you know.. :p)

Nah I agree with most, read the whole thread, and looks like your gona have to bite your tounge on this one, and like quick said a diclaimer. Even tho this shouldnt be needed, its only way to stop this from happening in the future bro.

[thequickone]

Well, I will pay him, I just don't like it. I understand that I didn't make the contest a legal document, I laid out the rules with faith in people not to abuse it. It's too bad, and discouraging. Sorry to all who donated, your money may possibly go to a short-lived account. I already said if it is one person then I will pay up, even if he lied, but I guess I'm forced to either way. Oh well, thats the way she goes.

My poor credits :( (Im not rich you know.. :p)

Nah I agree with most, read the whole thread, and looks like your gona have to bite your tounge on this one, and like quick said a diclaimer. Even tho this shouldnt be needed, its only way to stop this from happening in the future bro.

OK, now I feel like garbage! I still stand by what I said, but this really sucks. Maybe give the player in question the option to refuse the prize. It may not redeem the honor they have lost, but it would be a good gesture and a step in the right direction. If they wonder why you are asking, point them in the direction of this thread...

Please don't forget; you organized a wonderful event, and everyone had a great time. You had over 30 participants that ran their feet off and did so following every rule you set out. And the majority of players were honorable and well-behaved. Only two slots were affected by dishonorable behaviour. Don't let the bad Apples spoil the bunch!

I say this because I can see you are disheartened. I am, too, as are most of the rest of us here. Please don't let this bad experience keep you down. I'm looking forward to your next event! :D

Maybe the only disclaimer we need is "dishonest = disqualified".

[CappinClutch]

"Dishonest=your winnings automatically go to Cappinclutch and you can take it up with him." lol! Now THAT I like!

All jokes aside, whether 17, 7, or 45 living vicariously through all of the aforementioned, he beat ya...sad day that it hadda be that way, but it is what it is...now we know for next time.

[CanonicalKoi]

Don't be too hard on yourself Eb. You're an honest guy so you expect other people to be honest. Let the Devs sort out if any shenanigans took place account-wise while you do the right thing and stand by the rules you set. Next time, throw a disclaimer in there about "...anyone violating the TOS will be automatically disqualified..." and let it go. I'll agree, though, that it's sad that people have to put lines like that in their contest rules. :(

[BigBah]

Yes its just better to just pay the guy.

[Necrobane]

Personal thoughts, would it not be fair to give him a week? Let the devs decide whether to ban or not and give the money if he comes clean? Seems like the most fair option to me, not like he needs the money if he gets banned eh?

[atsuki]

How do you join these contests

[Nightarcher]

If someone did something against the ToS involving a contest I had set up, I would just let it be (besides that handy report button,) provided that it didn't interfere with the contest.

The thing is, this does. All the other contestants were only allowed one run except in the instance that they disconnected mid-run, and it was stated. This certainly sounds suspicious to me, and while you can't be sure, there is a possibility that he could have just been trying to get an unfair second chance.

--

The choice to pay him or not should be based solely on whether or not you feel he took advantage of you to beat the other contestants. If you truly believe he is outright lying, the fairest thing to do is give the money to the rightful recipient: the next in line.

And I agree that ToS issues are more the Devs' problems, even if it's natural to shun them. ;)

[BodMaster]

How do you join these contests

You wait until a Race thread is made and reply to it on the forums.. sure another will be made :D

[BodMaster]

The choice to pay him or not should be based solely on whether or not you feel he took advantage of you to beat the other contestants. If you truly believe he is outright lying, the fairest thing to do is give the money to the rightful recipient: the next in line.

And I agree that ToS issues are more the Devs' problems, even if it's natural to shun them. ;)

Missed the part where they disconnected and was allowed a second chance..

Well although Eb feels disheartened by this... we made up for it with some amazing fun runs yesterday to take his mind off it and hopefully able to see a little clearer now :)

Do what you feel is right! exactly what 'Fast' said :p what ever you decide we have your back on this one buddy and will surely we will fully understand your reason's.

This contest was an awesomely fun event! Which brought the whole SL community together we had great fun! And all that participated can't wait for the next.. saying that even the ones that didn put their name down is prob wishing they had! hehe head up bro we salute you :D