Dolloway
05-11-2017, 09:29 PM
Easy way to balance pvp:
- Raise the level cap to 90.
- Change the pvp level range to zero instead of 2. Twinking is mostly dead anyway now. Anyone remaining around the 20ish range will either get friends to pvp at their level range or level up to endgame... Which means more $ for you, Cinco. I've been half opposed to this range change simply because endgame isn't balanced while other levels are surely more balanced (or were, before changes), like 56 and 61. But if you balance endgame, balanced pvp is balanced pvp, no matter the stats or level range. This will prevent players from merging down to a level 85 arena instead of a level 90 one.
- Have there be "PVP stats" and "PVE stats" in descriptions of stats when selecting an item. The pvp stats will apply to pvp, the pve stats will apply to pve. You, Cinco, have shown this to be possible, as shown with stat modifications made when entering certain zones (i.e. Wearing LAT'KO in Oktal maps).
- Make at least 6-7 types of sets or gear types for each spec (Dex, int, str). Copy stats from Sewers cap, the sets that were most useful, at least. Custom, Raid Roach, Drainer, Bagman, Henchman, Underling, Sewer King for dex. Enchanted, Mega Mage, Scrapers, Mastermind, Lowmans, Sewer Queen for int. Fortified, Fury Fighter, Cleaners, Bodyguards, Bellows, Royal Sewer. Obviously the new gear will have the same stats in pvp but not the same look or
- Make each weapon do the same proc as the previous gear from Sewer cap (important).
- To elaborate on a previous point, the new level 90 gear will have the stats of Sewer gear depending on what set of gear or combination of gear you choose to wear in level 90 arenas. All gear 85 and below will have severely nerfed stats in level 90 arenas and not be able to compete with the Sewers gear at all. Level 85 gear will retain its stats in level 85 arenas (and all other sets/gear will retain its stats in arenas 1-89).
- Do not make the level 90 equivalent gear of a Sewers set like Henchman give a set bonus. No stat set bonus (...in pvp. Give it a bonus in pve if you'd like). Only cool visual effects for wearing the entire set in pvp, if anything. Have the sets like Custom, Fort, etc. give the same set bonus as they did at the 56 cap.
- Chop hit% on each piece of Sewers gear so that you get roughly the same hit% that you would as a level 90 in a level 90 arena as you would as a level 56 in a level 56 arena. Because more int, dex, and str is added to stats over the course of 56-90, we will need to cut hit% on each piece of gear by perhaps 4% each piece. Test it out and see how it matches up vs. Sewer sets at 56. If it comes close to the same hit% or matches it, you have chopped enough hit% on each piece of gear.
- Get rid of the arena modifiers you currently have in place and replace them with any modifiers that existed during the 56 cap.
- Keep the hit% changes you've made to the game in previous updates
- Undo the other changes and make it like the 56 cap.
- Possibly adjust healing effectiveness down a certain percentage (probably not 7% like right now). But because extra INT from levels 56-90 will provide more heal, reduce healing effectiveness by 3% or the equivalent of how much heal would be gained when entering level 90 pvp arenas.
- Add a dmg output arena modifier in arena 90 that reduces dmg by the amount of skill dmg gained from 56-90
- 3pc rings/Dragon rings will offer very low pvp stat additions compared to level 90 rings or platinum rings while in level 90 arenas. Platinum rings will be valuable again (or the elite ring(s) from level 90).
- Level 80 and 85 rings will give a fraction of the stats they currently do while in level 90 pvp zones. They will have nerfed stats in level 90 arenas just like the 80-85 sets.
- Did I miss anything? Probably, but I'm not the one who can test stats like Cinco can. I have just given him a framework.
Skills (needs a separate section because there are several ways to go about this):
- Change ALL skills back to what they previously were at 56. Check game logs, files, info, forums to find out the stats for these skills (or check with Mysticaldream, he's a PL knowledge God). Level 6-9 skills have always made pvp more imbalanced because these skills were so horribly scaled and had a major impact on creating the dodge nightmare we experienced and still experience to this day. Levels 56-66 were quite balanced... And they have level 6 skills. 56 was the most balanced, of course.
Option 1):
Make it so that skills become maxed out at 55 skill points. Not the best idea, but this will surely balance skills.
Option 2):
Make it so that skills are changed back to what they were at level 56 cap in regards to skill levels 1-6. Heavily reduce increases in skills from 6-9. Why? Short example: If a mage uses nightmare and does a -60% dodge debuff to a bear at endgame BUT this debuff is dodged, the mage will be in a far worse position than if stats are properly balanced and the mage uses nightmare and does a -30% dodge debuff to a bear but this bear dodges. The mage who missed the -30% dodge debuff will be in a far greater position to rebound and possibly still win the battle than a mage who misses a -60 dodge debuff because the gap will be brought down significantly.
If a bear has 80 dodge and a mage misses a -60 dodge debuff, the mage has to deal with that huge layer of dodge. If a mage misses a -30 dodge debuff to a bear who has 50 dodge, the mage has to deal with a significantly less amount of dodge. It's not as much of a disadvantage.
If choosing this option, for hit buffs and debuffs, I recommend a slight increase of +2 from each level 6-9. Something very low but still impactful. When stats and gear are balanced, smaller increases (like 1 crit, 1 dodge, etc.) mean MUCH more in pvp than they do now. Do not be deceived by how small the increases are.
Option 3):
Create a PVP skills section and a PVE skills section. Pvp skills will be maxed out at 55 skill points and apply in PVP. PVE skills could go on forever, whatever kind of loco affect you want them to have in PVE.
Option 4):
Raise the skill cap to level 12. Rework all skills so that, for example, level 1 beckon does half of the dmg that level 1 beckon did at the level 56 cap. Another example: level 12 blast shot will do the same dmg level 6 blast shot did at the 56 cap.
For PVE players:
If skills are adjusted, PVE players will not be affected very much. Just adjust mobs' stats, and make stats for gear be loco in PVE so players can deal with mobs/bosses like they do now. This keeps them happy.
Fox/Rhinos:
Any problems with foxes or rhinos are a problem of the class itself. Skill adjustments may need to be made after this is implemented, but I can see 'Fortified' (whatever the gear name will have) foxes becoming a thing in pvp. Rhinos will be able to tank effectively with Fury and perhaps be dmg dealers with Fortified, if you go that route. Perhaps staff foxes will even be a thing.
Players who did well during Sewer cap (random list which will show the diversity that Sewers pvp offered):
Int mages: Jjjlove, Jcoultet, Amyxrose/Ruby
Dex mages: Kellylita, Nobounds, Bglir
Str mages: Ghost
Dex Birds: Kanital, Xrax, Tla
Int Birds: Mysticaldream's bird Mystich
Str birds: Hahahahabirdy, Xazic
Int Bear: Ovocotto, Kingfu
Str Bear: Cloakker/Cloak, Fabiokmd, Redwolfak
Dex bear: Papapat, Ajejejeje
As you can clearly see, any spec was viable. Everything had strengths and weaknesses. Int bird? You get high crit with enchanted and low defense, but have the ability to create a combo with the proc from Enchanted staff. Dex bear? Very good dmg, but lower defense with Custom. Scraper mage? Dodgy mage that can support well but has lower mana and dmg. Lowman mage? Very good mana and heals but lower crit and dmg. Drainer bird? Very good defense but low dmg and zero mana. Bodyguard bear? Good dmg but lower defense. Its like wanting to be a tank but have high dmg. It puts the emphasis on hybrid. Fury mage? Great defense and tanking but lower dmg. Fortified mage? Good dmg, but little mana.
As you can see, each set or combination of gear gives a trade off.
Pros of implementing this:
- staff mages, wand mages, pallies, bow mages, bow bears, sword bears, staff bears, warbirds, bow birds, and staff birds were all viable in pvp? There's a reason why so many builds were viable in pvp and that's because pvp was far more balanced than at any other time in PL's history. Nowadays seeing an INT bird (or "nerdy birdies," as they were called) in level 85 pvp is as common as seeing a unicorn in real life. Meaning, they don't exist, unless you want to get destroyed.
- People from the Sewer cap ('Sewer rats') will love this change. Those who never experienced Sewer pvp will get to experience it, which will be far more balanced than what we currently have.
- Every set of gear will be valuable since every piece will be viable in pvp. Players will want to obtain every single piece of gear so they have options!
- Players can mix and match gear to obtain better stats/secret builds. Want to mix the level 90 equivalent of Drainer armor, Sewer King helm and henchman bow to produce stats that have some mana, decent defense, and decent dmg (weakness: lacking crit)? Go ahead! Want to mix the level 90 equivalent of Underling helm/armor with a Custom Xbow to get stats that have good mana and decent crit but have their own strengths and weaknesses compared to full blown Custom Xbow Mage? Go ahead. Want to try Lowman and Mastermind to get good mana and high dmg? Your choice.
- These builds and mixing and matching of gear have been rarely attempted at level 56 since the introduction of glyph sets. Mostly everyone uses (or used, since it's dead now) glyph or tries to be a hipster by wearing Sewers sets instead of ever mixing like during 56 cap.
- Those who complain about balance after these changes are just simply bad at pvp and need to learn to get better.. And they will, because 56 is the most skilled cap in the history of PL.
- Teamwork will be emphasized. Teamwork will prevail more often.
- 1v1s will be skillful again.
- Dodge will rarely be a factor in deciding winners. If your opponent does have decent dodge, they sacrifice dmg, mana, etc. so that the gameplay is truly balanced.
- We get to play as 'nerdie' birdies (int birds) again! Pallies will be a thing again! But of course, much less terrifying than the level 76-77 caps because sets will be balanced so that pallies have something like either lower dmg or lower mana depending on which set or pieces of gear they select. Str Bears haven't been so hot this 85 cap. They will play a vital role as tank again! Fortified foxes will be a thing! Dex foxes with drainer and raid bow might be a thing too! The options are endless!
- More gear being valuable = more $ for cinco
- You can add cool vanities into the loot table in the next cap (White dragon) or make a plat map just for farming certain items... More $. Want to add a vendor that pops out after killing a special boss and offers new faces? More $.
- People leveling again = more $. Close down the prison (or make it so that xp orbs don't drop or drop very little of what they once dropped during 85 cap) after this cap ends so that people will have to spend $ on something new that will level them up.
- Platinum rings being useful and valuable again for Cinco = $. Add in a level 90 elite ring that has good comparable stats with platinum rings = more $.
- Everyone wins! Except that one random angry person who doesn't like balance or change or something something like that.
Cons of implementing this:
- Uh... You can't spam skills and expect to win half the time anymore?
- Your kdr might go down if you're not good?
- Talon mages will actually be balanced because they'll have low mana if they desire all that defense?
- You can't two shot people with your bow bird anymore?
- Groups of the same class/type will rarely work on teams, so you won't be able to hide in groups of what is most op (i.e. 3 bow birds or 3 talon mages)? You'll actually have to have *gasp* diversity on your team.
- Being different will gain you brownie points for standing out and honing a particular build or secret set of gear. And you don't like being different. :grumpy:
- Realistic cons? Not much.
Remember: balanced pvp is balanced pvp, no matter how low or how high stats are.
Like I said, I cannot test stats to know exactly what other changes will need to be made. I have just given Cinco a framework for balancing pvp.
The future of pvp is now in your hands, Cinco.
- Raise the level cap to 90.
- Change the pvp level range to zero instead of 2. Twinking is mostly dead anyway now. Anyone remaining around the 20ish range will either get friends to pvp at their level range or level up to endgame... Which means more $ for you, Cinco. I've been half opposed to this range change simply because endgame isn't balanced while other levels are surely more balanced (or were, before changes), like 56 and 61. But if you balance endgame, balanced pvp is balanced pvp, no matter the stats or level range. This will prevent players from merging down to a level 85 arena instead of a level 90 one.
- Have there be "PVP stats" and "PVE stats" in descriptions of stats when selecting an item. The pvp stats will apply to pvp, the pve stats will apply to pve. You, Cinco, have shown this to be possible, as shown with stat modifications made when entering certain zones (i.e. Wearing LAT'KO in Oktal maps).
- Make at least 6-7 types of sets or gear types for each spec (Dex, int, str). Copy stats from Sewers cap, the sets that were most useful, at least. Custom, Raid Roach, Drainer, Bagman, Henchman, Underling, Sewer King for dex. Enchanted, Mega Mage, Scrapers, Mastermind, Lowmans, Sewer Queen for int. Fortified, Fury Fighter, Cleaners, Bodyguards, Bellows, Royal Sewer. Obviously the new gear will have the same stats in pvp but not the same look or
- Make each weapon do the same proc as the previous gear from Sewer cap (important).
- To elaborate on a previous point, the new level 90 gear will have the stats of Sewer gear depending on what set of gear or combination of gear you choose to wear in level 90 arenas. All gear 85 and below will have severely nerfed stats in level 90 arenas and not be able to compete with the Sewers gear at all. Level 85 gear will retain its stats in level 85 arenas (and all other sets/gear will retain its stats in arenas 1-89).
- Do not make the level 90 equivalent gear of a Sewers set like Henchman give a set bonus. No stat set bonus (...in pvp. Give it a bonus in pve if you'd like). Only cool visual effects for wearing the entire set in pvp, if anything. Have the sets like Custom, Fort, etc. give the same set bonus as they did at the 56 cap.
- Chop hit% on each piece of Sewers gear so that you get roughly the same hit% that you would as a level 90 in a level 90 arena as you would as a level 56 in a level 56 arena. Because more int, dex, and str is added to stats over the course of 56-90, we will need to cut hit% on each piece of gear by perhaps 4% each piece. Test it out and see how it matches up vs. Sewer sets at 56. If it comes close to the same hit% or matches it, you have chopped enough hit% on each piece of gear.
- Get rid of the arena modifiers you currently have in place and replace them with any modifiers that existed during the 56 cap.
- Keep the hit% changes you've made to the game in previous updates
- Undo the other changes and make it like the 56 cap.
- Possibly adjust healing effectiveness down a certain percentage (probably not 7% like right now). But because extra INT from levels 56-90 will provide more heal, reduce healing effectiveness by 3% or the equivalent of how much heal would be gained when entering level 90 pvp arenas.
- Add a dmg output arena modifier in arena 90 that reduces dmg by the amount of skill dmg gained from 56-90
- 3pc rings/Dragon rings will offer very low pvp stat additions compared to level 90 rings or platinum rings while in level 90 arenas. Platinum rings will be valuable again (or the elite ring(s) from level 90).
- Level 80 and 85 rings will give a fraction of the stats they currently do while in level 90 pvp zones. They will have nerfed stats in level 90 arenas just like the 80-85 sets.
- Did I miss anything? Probably, but I'm not the one who can test stats like Cinco can. I have just given him a framework.
Skills (needs a separate section because there are several ways to go about this):
- Change ALL skills back to what they previously were at 56. Check game logs, files, info, forums to find out the stats for these skills (or check with Mysticaldream, he's a PL knowledge God). Level 6-9 skills have always made pvp more imbalanced because these skills were so horribly scaled and had a major impact on creating the dodge nightmare we experienced and still experience to this day. Levels 56-66 were quite balanced... And they have level 6 skills. 56 was the most balanced, of course.
Option 1):
Make it so that skills become maxed out at 55 skill points. Not the best idea, but this will surely balance skills.
Option 2):
Make it so that skills are changed back to what they were at level 56 cap in regards to skill levels 1-6. Heavily reduce increases in skills from 6-9. Why? Short example: If a mage uses nightmare and does a -60% dodge debuff to a bear at endgame BUT this debuff is dodged, the mage will be in a far worse position than if stats are properly balanced and the mage uses nightmare and does a -30% dodge debuff to a bear but this bear dodges. The mage who missed the -30% dodge debuff will be in a far greater position to rebound and possibly still win the battle than a mage who misses a -60 dodge debuff because the gap will be brought down significantly.
If a bear has 80 dodge and a mage misses a -60 dodge debuff, the mage has to deal with that huge layer of dodge. If a mage misses a -30 dodge debuff to a bear who has 50 dodge, the mage has to deal with a significantly less amount of dodge. It's not as much of a disadvantage.
If choosing this option, for hit buffs and debuffs, I recommend a slight increase of +2 from each level 6-9. Something very low but still impactful. When stats and gear are balanced, smaller increases (like 1 crit, 1 dodge, etc.) mean MUCH more in pvp than they do now. Do not be deceived by how small the increases are.
Option 3):
Create a PVP skills section and a PVE skills section. Pvp skills will be maxed out at 55 skill points and apply in PVP. PVE skills could go on forever, whatever kind of loco affect you want them to have in PVE.
Option 4):
Raise the skill cap to level 12. Rework all skills so that, for example, level 1 beckon does half of the dmg that level 1 beckon did at the level 56 cap. Another example: level 12 blast shot will do the same dmg level 6 blast shot did at the 56 cap.
For PVE players:
If skills are adjusted, PVE players will not be affected very much. Just adjust mobs' stats, and make stats for gear be loco in PVE so players can deal with mobs/bosses like they do now. This keeps them happy.
Fox/Rhinos:
Any problems with foxes or rhinos are a problem of the class itself. Skill adjustments may need to be made after this is implemented, but I can see 'Fortified' (whatever the gear name will have) foxes becoming a thing in pvp. Rhinos will be able to tank effectively with Fury and perhaps be dmg dealers with Fortified, if you go that route. Perhaps staff foxes will even be a thing.
Players who did well during Sewer cap (random list which will show the diversity that Sewers pvp offered):
Int mages: Jjjlove, Jcoultet, Amyxrose/Ruby
Dex mages: Kellylita, Nobounds, Bglir
Str mages: Ghost
Dex Birds: Kanital, Xrax, Tla
Int Birds: Mysticaldream's bird Mystich
Str birds: Hahahahabirdy, Xazic
Int Bear: Ovocotto, Kingfu
Str Bear: Cloakker/Cloak, Fabiokmd, Redwolfak
Dex bear: Papapat, Ajejejeje
As you can clearly see, any spec was viable. Everything had strengths and weaknesses. Int bird? You get high crit with enchanted and low defense, but have the ability to create a combo with the proc from Enchanted staff. Dex bear? Very good dmg, but lower defense with Custom. Scraper mage? Dodgy mage that can support well but has lower mana and dmg. Lowman mage? Very good mana and heals but lower crit and dmg. Drainer bird? Very good defense but low dmg and zero mana. Bodyguard bear? Good dmg but lower defense. Its like wanting to be a tank but have high dmg. It puts the emphasis on hybrid. Fury mage? Great defense and tanking but lower dmg. Fortified mage? Good dmg, but little mana.
As you can see, each set or combination of gear gives a trade off.
Pros of implementing this:
- staff mages, wand mages, pallies, bow mages, bow bears, sword bears, staff bears, warbirds, bow birds, and staff birds were all viable in pvp? There's a reason why so many builds were viable in pvp and that's because pvp was far more balanced than at any other time in PL's history. Nowadays seeing an INT bird (or "nerdy birdies," as they were called) in level 85 pvp is as common as seeing a unicorn in real life. Meaning, they don't exist, unless you want to get destroyed.
- People from the Sewer cap ('Sewer rats') will love this change. Those who never experienced Sewer pvp will get to experience it, which will be far more balanced than what we currently have.
- Every set of gear will be valuable since every piece will be viable in pvp. Players will want to obtain every single piece of gear so they have options!
- Players can mix and match gear to obtain better stats/secret builds. Want to mix the level 90 equivalent of Drainer armor, Sewer King helm and henchman bow to produce stats that have some mana, decent defense, and decent dmg (weakness: lacking crit)? Go ahead! Want to mix the level 90 equivalent of Underling helm/armor with a Custom Xbow to get stats that have good mana and decent crit but have their own strengths and weaknesses compared to full blown Custom Xbow Mage? Go ahead. Want to try Lowman and Mastermind to get good mana and high dmg? Your choice.
- These builds and mixing and matching of gear have been rarely attempted at level 56 since the introduction of glyph sets. Mostly everyone uses (or used, since it's dead now) glyph or tries to be a hipster by wearing Sewers sets instead of ever mixing like during 56 cap.
- Those who complain about balance after these changes are just simply bad at pvp and need to learn to get better.. And they will, because 56 is the most skilled cap in the history of PL.
- Teamwork will be emphasized. Teamwork will prevail more often.
- 1v1s will be skillful again.
- Dodge will rarely be a factor in deciding winners. If your opponent does have decent dodge, they sacrifice dmg, mana, etc. so that the gameplay is truly balanced.
- We get to play as 'nerdie' birdies (int birds) again! Pallies will be a thing again! But of course, much less terrifying than the level 76-77 caps because sets will be balanced so that pallies have something like either lower dmg or lower mana depending on which set or pieces of gear they select. Str Bears haven't been so hot this 85 cap. They will play a vital role as tank again! Fortified foxes will be a thing! Dex foxes with drainer and raid bow might be a thing too! The options are endless!
- More gear being valuable = more $ for cinco
- You can add cool vanities into the loot table in the next cap (White dragon) or make a plat map just for farming certain items... More $. Want to add a vendor that pops out after killing a special boss and offers new faces? More $.
- People leveling again = more $. Close down the prison (or make it so that xp orbs don't drop or drop very little of what they once dropped during 85 cap) after this cap ends so that people will have to spend $ on something new that will level them up.
- Platinum rings being useful and valuable again for Cinco = $. Add in a level 90 elite ring that has good comparable stats with platinum rings = more $.
- Everyone wins! Except that one random angry person who doesn't like balance or change or something something like that.
Cons of implementing this:
- Uh... You can't spam skills and expect to win half the time anymore?
- Your kdr might go down if you're not good?
- Talon mages will actually be balanced because they'll have low mana if they desire all that defense?
- You can't two shot people with your bow bird anymore?
- Groups of the same class/type will rarely work on teams, so you won't be able to hide in groups of what is most op (i.e. 3 bow birds or 3 talon mages)? You'll actually have to have *gasp* diversity on your team.
- Being different will gain you brownie points for standing out and honing a particular build or secret set of gear. And you don't like being different. :grumpy:
- Realistic cons? Not much.
Remember: balanced pvp is balanced pvp, no matter how low or how high stats are.
Like I said, I cannot test stats to know exactly what other changes will need to be made. I have just given Cinco a framework for balancing pvp.
The future of pvp is now in your hands, Cinco.