GCD/Macros

[Otukura]

Sent basically this exact thing as a PM to a friend, but I also want to get some public opinion. clicking skills is too hard as it is(yay. dying on low levels I've got no reason to die on), so I was tying them to my mouse:


WAITMS is wait ___ milliseconds. Numbers are just numberss. Say...


1{WAITMS250}2{WAITMS250}3
||skill one, waits 250 ms, skill two, waits 250 ms, skill three
||this only sets off skills one and three

1{WAITMS300}2{WAITMS300}3
||skill one, waits 300 ms, skill two, waits 300 ms, skill three
||this only sets off skills one and two

1{WAITMS300}2{WAITMS600}3
||skill one, waits 300ms, skill two, waits 600ms, skill three
||this only sets off skills one and two

So it seems as though the GCD is not the same? Maybe, you can't set off more than two skills per second? But the threshold for those two skills seems to be between 250 and 300 ms.

So... if X is 50 ms, and you can only cast 2 skills every second when they are no more than 300 MS apart:

1XXXXXX2XXXXXXXXXXXXXX3XXXXXX4XXXXXXXXXXXXXX5XXXXX X6

Again, the one second is just a guess, I haven't tested that.

Thoughts?

[JaytB]

Wait, you want to make a macro that automatically activate specific skills when pressing a mouse button? Or did I just completely misread that?

[Otukura]

Wait, you want to make a macro that automatically activate specific skills when pressing a mouse button? Or did I just completely misread that?

Yeah. It appears that the GCD isn't just, say, .3 seconds between each skill. It's like max two skills/second, and you can't have two skills less than .3 seconds apart. I was wondering if anyone else has tried anything like this.

[JaytB]

Uhmm... Wouldn't these kind of macro's be 'illegal'? I mean, I could see the advantage in PvP (when it ever arrives in SL). It's sound and awful lot like making a 'bot'. Maybe that's the reason the timings seem 'off'. In order to prevent this kind of tampering with macro's. To me it just doesn't seems very fair, if one could make macro's to get skills off, and it's the kind of thing that makes me worry about having SL/PL available on PC/Mac to be honest. Not meaning to flame here, just expressing my opinion about it :)

[Kakatoa91]

Didnt STS say they would balance portable devices vs computer in some way?

Like filterin from server side or so?
Cant find where they talk about this before when they announced SL on computer.

Sequencing skills on macro buttons is just a an advantage against handphone or tablet.
More if you can tweak it to speed it up.
It will b harder to win in pvp.
Well not everybody have a hardcore gamer keyboard or mouse.

[JaytB]

Didnt STS say they would balance portable devices vs computer in some way?

Like filterin from server side or so?
Cant find where they talk about this before when they announced SL on computer.

Sequencing skills on macro buttons is just a an advantage against handphone or tablet.
More if you can tweak it to speed it up.
It will b harder to win in pvp.
Well not everybody have a hardcore gamer keyboard or mouse.

It gives players and advantage? I'm sorry, but how is this fair? Don't get me wrong, I have a pretty hardcore gaming PC/keyboard/mouse/detachable num key board and the works, but if I could legally use that as an advantage to win PVP games, I wouldn't feel any sense of accomplishment. Gameplay has always been with no advantages depending on the device you play on (except for some occasional exploits that the devs fixed). If it becomes easier to win because you could program a device, so you can just move and press 1 button, that wouldn't be honest IMO. Or am I looking a this the wrong way?

[Kakatoa91]

It gives players and advantage? I'm sorry, but how is this fair? Don't get me wrong, I have a pretty hardcore gaming PC/keyboard/mouse/detachable num key board and the works, but if I could legally use that as an advantage to win PVP games, I wouldn't feel any sense of accomplishment. Gameplay has always been with no advantages depending on the device you play on (except for some occasional exploits that the devs fixed). If it becomes easier to win because you could program a device, so you can just move and press 1 button, that wouldn't be honest IMO. Or am I looking a this the wrong way?

Dont shoot at me Jay... lol :D
I didnt say it was fair, just stated it was an advantage.

Check the post in this section "pvp balance",
IBN talk to dev at bbq. Sorry cant link with my phone.
Theres an other post where dev talk I think but cant find it.

[JaytB]

Dont shoot at me Jay... lol :D
I didnt say it was fair, just stated it was an advantage.

Check the post in this section "pvp balance",
IBN talk to dev at bbq. Sorry cant link with my phone.
Theres an other post where dev talk I think but cant find it.

Lol, wasn't meant to sound like if I was shooting. I was also just expressing my opinion about the matter, it wasn't meant to be personal :)

[Ellyidol]

Sensitive issue, IMO. I think STS will have to redefine the rules especially now that it's on the PC platform.

Not sure how many saw my leaving thread with the picture of my mouse/game pad on it. Basically, 18 buttons on my mouse alone. I was actually wanting to try it out in SL/PL, haven't gotten around to it though.

My opinion, I'd say it's legal if it's just using device macros.

Edit:

Long edit, lost connection so couldn't post.

By device macros, I mean binding a key to different buttons on a mouse. I've heard of illegal stuff with macros though, not exactly sure what though.

[Moogerfooger]

My two cents is with Jay. Macros in PvP would be what most consider an unfair advantage (whether it'd be more effective, who knows). Remapping/mapping certain skills to certain buttons even could be considered an unfair advantage compared to someone playing on a phone/tablet setup where you physically have to tap a skill and be up against someone with the EllyNator 5000GT SuperController with skills mapped. Granted, server response times will also affect it, but I can't say I see using Macros as something fair. In PvE it wouldn't really make much of a difference/hurt anyone so to speak....but PvP? No. You want three skills, you tap three skills/click three skills.

And like Jay said, this is why I hoped that PL/SL never came to PC. Sorry, Otu, mad respect for you, but have to disagree with using macros (unless STS has purposely built something in to render it level/fair, and even then....)

[Ellyidol]

EllyNator 5000GT SuperController

I like it :D

But yeah, now that you mention it, I do see your point. Not everyone has access to macros/EllyNators, so it should be labeled illegal.

[Riccits]

theres was already banned one guy for making a macro wich made him operate like a bot...

so pay attention and dont do things like these...

[Moogerfooger]

I like it :D

But yeah, now that you mention it, I do see your point. Not everyone has access to macros/EllyNators, so it should be labeled illegal.

I'm kind of on the fence about controllers, because with GCD/system limitations it's not like your 3 button presses in 0.117 seconds will register in 0.117 seconds in-game...but ti is still easier/faster for you to hit them in the first place :p. Can anyone stop anyone from physically using a gaming controller? Of course not. But even with GCD/system limitations, it is still easier/faster/less distracting to use the skills. No way to enforce, however, and any advanatge performance-wise may be just notional and not real, so I am kinda "meh whocares" about controllers to some extent. Just an opinion :D

[krazii]

This is just the beginning as these games migrate to the PC platform. STS can do little about it unless somebody is messing (hacking) the game code. Macros are perfectly legal and virtually undetectable. They will certainly give an advantage, especially when playing against someone on a phone/tablet who has to change skill screens etc. Part of me wonders if this isn't why STS hasn't implemented PvP in SL or made PL playable on Chrome. I totally agree with Jay, but at this point there's not much that can be done.

[WhoIsThis]

Raise the GCD on computers by perhaps 20%. It should negate the advantages that a PC would have.

The best thing though would be to make PvP inaccessible on PC.

[Moogerfooger]

This is just the beginning as these games migrate to the PC platform. STS can do little about it unless somebody is messing (hacking) the game code. Macros are perfectly legal and virtually undetectable.

Have to disagree here, to some extent. A lot of people were using macros/3d party emulators for Storm8 games, and Storm8 caught on after a little while. They came up with software to analyze server logs for certain repeated-ad-nauseum server logs/entries, as people were doing things that were very repetitive for hours on end...in the end, was pretty easy for S8 to detect from analyzing their logs. Whether that would work on a few second long sequence from a single mouse-click, who knows.

They may be legal, but me personally, just because something is not illegal, doesn't mean it is fair/morally right. That is kind of dramatic for what we are talking about, but you get the point ;)

[Otukura]

The best thing though would be to make PvP inaccessible on PC.

I'm fine with that, but there's no possible way to click each skill and do everything else at the same time on a PC. Hotkeys require too many hands. WRT PvP, if someone is kiting, and you macro, you're screwed. All the rest of the skills in the macro just got wasted. I still think PvP would need a lot more quick reactions to the opponents actions than a macro would offer.

Would binding it to a 19 button mouse be OK?


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WRT GCD, half the reason I made this post. It seems as though, even though the devs lowered the initial .5 second GCD for two skills, it didn't change how many skills you could cast per, say, 5 seconds.

[CanonicalKoi]

My two cents is with Jay. Macros in PvP would be what most consider an unfair advantage (whether it'd be more effective, who knows). Remapping/mapping certain skills to certain buttons even could be considered an unfair advantage compared to someone playing on a phone/tablet setup where you physically have to tap a skill and be up against someone with the EllyNator 5000GT SuperController with skills mapped. Granted, server response times will also affect it, but I can't say I see using Macros as something fair. In PvE it wouldn't really make much of a difference/hurt anyone so to speak....but PvP? No. You want three skills, you tap three skills/click three skills.

And like Jay said, this is why I hoped that PL/SL never came to PC. Sorry, Otu, mad respect for you, but have to disagree with using macros (unless STS has purposely built something in to render it level/fair, and even then....)

What Moog (and Jay) said. It's too much like the "IOS users have an unfair advantage with button mashing" thing from PL PvP (which was true--IOS users did. GCD took care of that issue). At the same time, someone using the standard Google controls is going to have a devil of a time against someone with a touchscreen. i can see why PvP has been delayed due to "balancing" issues and I'm really, really glad not to be the one having to try and make it work. :/

[MoarPewPew]

Since I do not play SL really, I will focus on mastering macroing when PL comes out. Other mmo's such as Wow encourage macro use. I don't see why STS would not mind this. Macros improve a players performance when looking to complete a task such as maximizing dps, or having an easier time crowd controlling.

Yes it may be viewed as unfair, but you could make the same argument saying that android devices and apple devices do not have the same quality regarding something like the touch screen registering.

[CanonicalKoi]

Actually, WoW has banned people for using programmable keyboards and gaming mice. There's at least one angst-filled site of a guy talking about being banned for using a programmable keyboard. They get suspended under a section of the TOS dealing with botting, even though the rule talks about the use of third-party software and not hardware peripherals. If you ask the folks at Blizzard, they will tell you, "one button push = one action".

In any case, it would be up to STS how they interpret this section of the TOS: "hacks, modifies or otherwise makes use of cheats, mods, automation software (bots) or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the game experience"--does "third-party software" include drivers for gaming mice/other devices?

[Gluttony]

Have to disagree here, to some extent. A lot of people were using macros/3d party emulators for Storm8 games, and Storm8 caught on after a little while. They came up with software to analyze server logs for certain repeated-ad-nauseum server logs/entries, as people were doing things that were very repetitive for hours on end...in the end, was pretty easy for S8 to detect from analyzing their logs.

That's not actually detecting the macros, but rather detecting a repeating pattern. The macros went unnoticed since it didn't even have to be macros at that point but something as simple as a rudimentary auto mouse program. As stated before detecting macros is virtually impossible.

[Moogerfooger]

That's not actually detecting the macros, but rather detecting a repeating pattern. The macros went unnoticed since it didn't even have to be macros at that point but something as simple as a rudimentary auto mouse program. As stated before detecting macros is virtually impossible.

I'll bite...one time :D You can call that "repeating patterns were detected not the actual macro" and I can call it "the usage/existence of macros or auto mouse programs were detected due to the repeating pattern outputs being readable/analyzable and deduced that a macro was being used", it is six of one and half dozen of the other and a matter of personal perspective and semantics. Both are technically correct depending on our POV :p

Can they detect simple two-button sequences bound to a mouse? Dunno. I won't be trying to find out.

-------

Regardless....I am not buying the other argument that touch-screen sensitivity differences between devices is the same as the difference between someone using a macro or a macro-programmed/enabled mouse or controller.

[Ellyidol]

Actually, WoW has banned people for using programmable keyboards and gaming mice. There's at least one angst-filled site of a guy talking about being banned for using a programmable keyboard. They get suspended under a section of the TOS dealing with botting, even though the rule talks about the use of third-party software and not hardware peripherals. If you ask the folks at Blizzard, they will tell you, "one button push = one action".

In any case, it would be up to STS how they interpret this section of the TOS: "hacks, modifies or otherwise makes use of cheats, mods, automation software (bots) or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the game experience"--does "third-party software" include drivers for gaming mice/other devices?

I think that has changed big time. People talk about the best mice/keyboards for the game virtually anywhere now. I think they might have even done some tie-ups with these devices. A few popular YT people that advocate the game advertise using them outright :p

[Otukura]

unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the game experience"--does "third-party software" include drivers for gaming mice/other devices?

What about things like XPadder, or other programs for console controllers?

WRT blizzard, taken from their website:


Please also note: The User Interface will reset upon transferring. You may wish to save all macros, etc. prior to doing so.

Doesn't seem as thought they're against it, if they're telling you to save it.

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more about macros, if you tie, say drain, ice, fire to your mouse, but only have it cast one per click, there wouldn't be anyway to determine that. Spam clicks as fast as you can get a drain ice fire combo out really fast, but you could interrupt that at anytime.

[Moogerfooger]

This has nothing to do with this directly, but I always laugh when I see it :D

http://www.pileofwit.com/forums/images/smilies/SmashingHeadOnKeyboard.gif

[Otukura]

This has nothing to do with this directly, but I always laugh when I see it :D

http://www.pileofwit.com/forums/images/smilies/SmashingHeadOnKeyboard.gif

Lol. Haven't seen that since the Nexon forum days.

Anyway, was looking into the Blizzard thing -- the keyboards that Blizzard themselves sell have software for running macros. They ban macros in tourneys, but not in random games apparently.

[Ellyidol]

Lol. Haven't seen that since the Nexon forum days.

Anyway, was looking into the Blizzard thing -- the keyboards that Blizzard themselves sell have software for running macros. They ban macros in tourneys, but not in random games apparently.

Yup, they do. They have a macro menu right in-game, so using them can't be illegal at all. I didn't know about their tourneys, Blizzcon ones you mean? I can see that since they provide all the equipment and all the in-game stuff. To be honest, I can't imagine using the normal keyboard anymore after using the mouse.

[Bakoffmycandy]

Very interesting read all the way through. It certainly does give an advantage over someone using a touchscreen if your have a good lay out for Xpadder or a Macro Made to use skills.Xpadder is simply amazing & I'm still curious on STS's point of view on these topics.

Would it consider breaking TOS?
Making your own macros? (for single ability use etc. Any thing that performs more than 1 command per click or touch should all ready be illegal)
Using Xpadder?

Should they break STS's TOS? I really hope not. As discussed above It certainly would provide a huge advantage in PVP. I am very curious myself if that is a reason we have not seen PVP yet in SL. Very well could be why PL has been released for Chrome yet as well. These are very handy tools, I think that they should be legal within reason.