Weapon Equality

[iNFaMous]

So first of all ill say this applies mostly to Warriors,
We have a selection of 1 handed Weapons / 2 handed Swords & for Warriors implementing dexterity Daggers

Now as this goes 1 handed and 2 handed swords are quite fairly compared
2 handed is a little stronger than 1 handed in respect of no shield

Daggers however are tremendously over powered

The average DPS for each of these weapons at 25-30 comes to..
1 Handed - 35
2 handed - 39
Dagger - 79

As you can see a Dagger can quite easily be two times as strong, and you even have the added benefit of a Shield.

--

Following this analysis i question whether it is worth even adding further into strength just to keep up with the requirements of Armour and under powered weapons.

Has anyone else been noticing this trend in equality whether it be for Warriors or any other class?

[diesel]

So first of all ill say this applies mostly to Warriors,
We have a selection of 1 handed Weapons / 2 handed Swords & for Warriors implementing dexterity Daggers

Now as this goes 1 handed and 2 handed swords are quite fairly compared
2 handed is a little stronger than 1 handed in respect of no shield

Daggers however are tremendously over powered

The average DPS for each of these weapons at 25-30 comes to..
1 Handed - 35
2 handed - 39
Dagger - 79

As you can see a Dagger can quite easily be two times as strong, and you even have the added benefit of a Shield.

--

Following this analysis i question whether it is worth even adding further into strength just to keep up with the requirements of Armour and under powered weapons.

Has anyone else been noticing this trend in equality whether it be for Warriors or any other class?


There's a whole thread on how badly warrior is underpowered and unbalanced and frustrating to play, for many reasons one of which you raised. You are dead on with your observation. Hopefully this will be fixed.

[tubbies]

It's all screwed up in a role playing sense too. How does a puny dagger do more damage than a big *** sword?

[FeralDruid]

It's all screwed up in a role playing sense too. How does a puny dagger do more damage than a big *** sword?

The dagger has an attack power of something small like 11-13, but the swing rate is 0.6!

Thats how :P

I have a grey dagger that ups my dps by 25, however I'm using an orange axe atm because of the +h/s

[iNFaMous]

The dagger has an attack power of something small like 11-13, but the swing rate is 0.6!

Thats how :P

I have a grey dagger that ups my dps by 25, however I'm using an orange axe atm because of the +h/s

Ursan Spike-Axe 1h
Req Lvl 29, 91 Str
33-43 Damage, 1.5 Speed, 3 str, 1 H/s, 2 Armor


Assassin's Thin Dagger
Req Lvl 29, 90 Dex
30-33 Damage, 0.6 Speed, 3 Dex, 1% Crit

[Suzume]

It sounds like the dagger formula needs nerfed and the warrior's weapons needs buffed with a larger emphasis on STR weapon damage.

[rdurham527]

If they would change dagger speed to about .9 or 1.0 it would even things out as far as 1h weps go

[Suzume]

I agree, an attack speed change would be great to solve the problem.

[Flamin]

two handed should be alot better. and daggers should be a little worse. But if duel weaons are released in some update, then the daggers should be a lot worse, and the two handed weapons should be a ton, a lot better.

[Jetshrike]

I think its more messed up that I have a wand that carries a 24 armor buff. I mean its a piece of wood. My bracer only gives me 9 armor :/ . That said it makes it a more resonable choice over the staff depite the very slight dps boost XD

[Justg]

The fire and ice wands went out a bit buggy. Sez Cinco: Wands should give the wearer zero (0) armor. Supplemental armor comes from the Enchantress' ability to wear a bracer on her off-hand.

We'll be patching out a fix any minute now...

[Banned]

Please do not change the dagger. Seriously. For real. Don't. The dagger is the only thing that balances out the fact that a dagger Archer dies in 3 damn hits. If you don't like the attack simply use a dagger instead. Us dagger Archers have already been screwed over once. Please do not cause this to happen again.

[FeralDruid]

But Dagger Archer =/= Rogue o_____o

[Banned]

I don't understand weapons complaints o.o. You can use ANY weapon you want in the game so nothing is really unbalanced. Just go dex if you wanna use the dagger. I have seen tons of bears using daggers and they seem pretty fine.

[iNFaMous]

Please do not change the dagger. Seriously. For real. Don't. The dagger is the only thing that balances out the fact that a dagger Archer dies in 3 damn hits. If you don't like the attack simply use a dagger instead. Us dagger Archers have already been screwed over once. Please do not cause this to happen again.

Dagger Archer

when you chose your class i would assume you planned on being an Archer ( with a X / Bow ), Reasons to switch to a Dagger were mostly caused by a over powered skill ( Evasion - 100 Evade )

And an argument as to dying within 3 hits because of a weaker dagger, Us Warriors also get hit for 150+ by bosses.

[Banned]

Actually I chose the Archer because I thought the other classes looked ugly =P. I was originally going to be a Str Archer until I found out that they could use daggers (I hate bows) and I was late on the whole evasion thing. I actually think I was the first Archer to use a dagger instead of a bow. I got the game on release day and my first kill got me a Golden Dagger. I had not seen anyone with a dagger besides me for a couple weeks and I would always get questions on it. And yeah, 150+ on BOSSES. My Warrior does fine against every other enemy so there's nothing to complain about. And a couple hits from a boss takes out a dagger Archer as well so I still don't see how a being a Warrior is worse then a dagger Archer. Didn't Warriors get evasion just recenty as well?

[FeralDruid]

I use a dagger on my tank, he's just level 14, but has 39 dps. Its a grey item too, Golden Dagger farmed from trash mobs.

[Banned]

^^^ See? Just use a dagger if you have a problem with your current weapon.

[iNFaMous]

I don't understand weapons complaints o.o. You can use ANY weapon you want in the game so nothing is really unbalanced. Just go dex if you wanna use the dagger. I have seen tons of bears using daggers and they seem pretty fine.

The issue you don't understand that i'm bringing up is that they are Dex requirement weapons, Not only does this make 1 handed and 2 handed weapons near useless, Warriors are intended to Add Strength and by currently doing so we are vastly under-powered


Actually I chose the Archer because I thought the other classes looked ugly =P. I was originally going to be a Str Archer until I found out that they could use daggers (I hate bows) and I was late on the whole evasion thing. I actually think I was the first Archer to use a dagger instead of a bow. I got the game on release day and my first kill got me a Golden Dagger. I had not seen anyone with a dagger besides me for a couple weeks and I would always get questions on it. And yeah, 150+ on BOSSES. My Warrior does fine against every other enemy so there's nothing to complain about. And a couple hits from a boss takes out a dagger Archer as well so I still don't see how a being a Warrior is worse then a dagger Archer. Didn't Warriors get evasion just recenty as well?

Unrelated/
This point you made is actually a point i told you in my previous post where you stated your Dagger Archer dies easy, now your saying it to me..?
/Unrelated

What is your problem with survivability that Warriors aren't dealing with also?

There will be no more than a deficit of 50 HP which is minute in comparison of the total and all equipment is near enough equal, Your evade skill is also still better than ours.

[Banned]

Your making the argument that your weak because you are adding strength. SIMPLY DON'T ADD STRENGTH. It's not that hard to understand. If your weapons are nearly useless the simply DON'T USE THEM. Just use a dagger if you don't think your 1h and 2h aren't strong enough. And about what you said about how the point I made was the same as your previous one. You said that your Warrior gets killed by bosses easily. I then stated that dagger Archers get killed easiy by EVERYTHING. And if you just won't except the fact that a Warrior CAN use dex then I think it might be time for you to switch over to the Archer side if you dislike your Warrior so much.

[iNFaMous]

Your making the argument that your weak because you are adding strength. SIMPLY DON'T ADD STRENGTH. It's not that hard to understand. If your weapons are nearly useless the simply DON'T USE THEM. Just use a dagger if you don't think your 1h and 2h aren't strong enough. And about what you said about how the point I made was the same as your previous one. You said that your Warrior gets killed by bosses easily. I then stated that dagger Archers get killed easiy by EVERYTHING. And if you just won't except the fact that a Warrior CAN use dex then I think it might be time for you to switch over to the Archer side if you dislike your Warrior so much.

To sum that up for you, you think,
We should ignore the fact that Warrior Weapons and the Strength Stat on a Whole should be useless in comparison to Daggers & Dexterity?

[Banned]

What I have been trying to say is simply that I don't want daggers to be downgraded. I'm all for improvent toward the Warrior class but your also asking for the devs to screw over dagger Archers because you don't find it fair. Why can't the Warrior just be improved without dagger Archers having to be crapped on in the process?

[iNFaMous]

Well do me a favor and quote me where I've asked for Anything to be down graded.

The objective i had for this thread was for acknowledgment that Warriors have a very short straw in terms of weapon choice to Damage output if they intend to Follow a Warrior ( Strength ) Path.

[Banned]

The first post I did on this thread was addressing the people that wanted to have the dagger downgraded. You responded to my post and therefore I assume you think that downgrading the dagger is a good idea.

[Buvet]

I think that the same argument could be made for upgrading weapons. Under-power is always better than over-power. I don't think that changing either weapons is a good idea, but making something less powerful is always better than making something more powerful, as long as everything balances in the end. A good compromise might be throwing in a couple of good dagger skills in there, like a sneak attack or something that would allow the archer to do a ridiculous amount of damage, but give it a moderate recharge.

[Banned]

^^^ Thats pretty good idea.

[tubbies]

Your making the argument that your weak because you are adding strength. SIMPLY DON'T ADD STRENGTH. It's not that hard to understand. If your weapons are nearly useless the simply DON'T USE THEM. Just use a dagger if you don't think your 1h and 2h aren't strong enough. And about what you said about how the point I made was the same as your previous one. You said that your Warrior gets killed by bosses easily. I then stated that dagger Archers get killed easiy by EVERYTHING. And if you just won't except the fact that a Warrior CAN use dex then I think it might be time for you to switch over to the Archer side if you dislike your Warrior so much.

Nobody likes to see a toon half your level with more dps than himself. My 25 bear gets outdps'd by anybody carrying a dagger above level 10, be it a bear bird or chantress.

By the way the evasion skill for chickens was a bug. They didn't nerf dagger chickens, just made them what they were meant to be.

[Flamin]

I think that what would solve this problem is to make the warrior over powered and a lot better with some really good skills, and add in just a few improvments to the archer class. But what would really solve the problem is a theif/rogue/assassin class and a squirrel as the avatar for that class. so that archer would not be able to use daggers.


Here is a great idea by dakkine.

This might be a little more off in the future but, sounds like fun for players and a money maker for spacetime...

How about making the warrior a little more like a paladin, with some decent self heal skill and maybe a strong shielding (+defense) skill, this would be nice since the war is kinda lame past lvl 13.

Also, everyone loves a thief/assassin class. duel wield daggers, higher % for loot, steal gold, invisibility...

After these new classes the next major update would require maybe 2 new attributes. This would take a little thinking, but the 3 right now could easily be spread out a little more. This would give every character a little more variation and allow for more customized builds.

maybe...

STR
Strength still increases hp
hp regen
damage is more for 1H weps
also slightly for all base damage

DEX
hit %
affects crit
more damage for ranged, 2H weps, duel wield...

AGI (agility)
overall movement speed
attack speed
dodge
slightly improves crit

INT
same old basicaly
magic damage
mana pool size
mp regen

FOC (focus)
slightly improves both hp and mp regen
faster skill cast rate (maybe even skill duration)
very small + hit% and + crit%

[Flamin]

Warriors should be tons better, and have a massive area damage skill. The archer class would just have a few improvements. But what I think would really solve this problem. Archers should be archers with lots of damage and dps with bows and not daggers, archers should have very little defence/armor but a reasonable amount of health. Warriors should be warriors like tanks with massive, huge, high damage, and great, huge health and defence/armor, Warriors should absolutely NOT be just underpowered grunts, like they are now. Assassins should be assassins with daggers and massive damage and extremely good dps, with quite a lot of defense but not even close to as much as the warrior, and a little (not a very little) health, assassins should have extreemely good dodging, assassins should have quite a bit less damage than the warrior. Please post your comments about this post.

The warrior and assassin should be better (have higher damage and health and armor and regen) than the enchantress and archer because warriors and assassins are melee and are hit alot more by enemies, exept the assassin would not be hit as much by enemies because assassins would have very high dodge rating/percentage. Esepcially the warrior should have higher regen and a self healing skill (a healing skill kind of like what the healing skill for the archer is now). And I really, really think the avatar for the assassin class should be a squirrel and im leaning toward a non humanoid squirrel because a squirrel's looks are very nice as they are (thanks to mothernature) and they are extemely fast and have extremely good reflexes. I have a squirrel trap and ive seen one squirrel trigger the trap then actually get out before the spring snap the door shut(now that is FAST!). Even my german shepard dog has not ever cought a squirrel(but he has been 2 feet from catching a squirrel though).

[Banned]

The way you wanna solve this problem is to completely over power a class. That isn't a very good idea seeing how the whole thread is arguing against having a certain class being so over powered.

[iNFaMous]

Everything Class & Skill wise is fine.

Its the Weapon stats that need tweaking,
There are 3 solutions:

1. Strength as a Stat needs to have more emphasis on damage ( possibly hp )

2. Daggers needs to either be slowed or preferably the damage reduced ( Daggers are and should be Fast)

3. The most Obvious solution is making Warrior Weapons Alot more effective damage wise

[Jetshrike]

I think now wands will have there armor nerfed to 0 that they should have a higher dps boost to make them viable over staves.

[SMELTN]

I think this was just a case of wanting daggers to be a good weapon with high stats on it. All the lvl "x" weapons have pretty close to the same numbers dps wise on the item, I think someone just forgot that swing speed means a lot

[iNFaMous]

I think now wands will have there armor nerfed to 0 that they should have a higher dps boost to make them viable over staves.

If you mean the Very high Armor rating they had, i believe it has been fixed now as it was a bug.

From my views of wands and staves they are fairly balanced, with the speed rating included, but Enchantresses shouldn't base opinions on that because its normal attack motivated, they have real unstable damage as far as AoEs to make a Good conclusion.

[FeralDruid]

Everything Class & Skill wise is fine.

Its the Weapon stats that need tweaking,
There are 3 solutions:

1. Strength as a Stat needs to have more emphasis on damage ( possibly hp )

2. Daggers needs to either be slowed or preferably the damage reduced ( Daggers are and should be Fast)

3. The most Obvious solution is making Warrior Weapons Alot more effective damage wise

STR DEFINITELY needs to affect HP. No other class needs to drop points into this attribute as much (if at all) like Warriors do. Therefore it should provide some additional bonus for the parent class that uses it, i.e. Warriors - HP/DMG

[nerdherd]

This might be slightly off-topic, but I think the real problem isn't daggers. The problem is that warriors have no incentive to beef up their strength because it doesn't give you much advantage.. Warrior gear isn't powerful enough, specifically armor, it needs to be about double what it is now so that they can effectively tank in the new, harder dungeons.

I don't play my warrior much lately because I take way too much damage and even when I have an enchantress playing with me the heal spell ruins everything because it draws waaaaay too much aggro/threat and then I can't tank. And since I take so much damage they have to heal a lot and I'm constantly losing control of mobs.

Sorry for my random, disconnected commentary. In short: the warrior class needs to be revisited.

[Buvet]

@Flamin- Haha, I love how having the avatar is a major component of the solution. FTW!

But as I said in my earlier post, I don't think that making something stronger is a solution, finding an intermediate is what will work. Otherwise things will just spiral upwards until everything is ridiculously strong.

[iNFaMous]

This might be slightly off-topic, but I think the real problem isn't daggers. The problem is that warriors have no incentive to beef up their strength because it doesn't give you much advantage.. Warrior gear isn't powerful enough, specifically armor, it needs to be about double what it is now so that they can effectively tank in the new, harder dungeons.

I don't play my warrior much lately because I take way too much damage and even when I have an enchantress playing with me the heal spell ruins everything because it draws waaaaay too much aggro/threat and then I can't tank. And since I take so much damage they have to heal a lot and I'm constantly losing control of mobs.

Sorry for my random, disconnected commentary. In short: the warrior class needs to be revisited.

Thats not off-topic, its the same point in a different view,
Warriors just need some Tweaking.

[Flamin]

This might be slightly off-topic, but I think the real problem isn't daggers. The problem is that warriors have no incentive to beef up their strength because it doesn't give you much advantage.. Warrior gear isn't powerful enough, specifically armor, it needs to be about double what it is now so that they can effectively tank in the new, harder dungeons.

I don't play my warrior much lately because I take way too much damage and even when I have an enchantress playing with me the heal spell ruins everything because it draws waaaaay too much aggro/threat and then I can't tank. And since I take so much damage they have to heal a lot and I'm constantly losing control of mobs.

Sorry for my random, disconnected commentary. In short: the warrior class needs to be revisited.

Yes I agree, and the damage for the warrior needs to be a lot, a ton better too.

[Buvet]

...............I don't think the warrior is bad, just it's interaction with the other classes

[Azrael]

Banned: Stop hating on warriors needing improvements, because they really do.

From the weapons, to the repetitve skill set, to the fact that they actually require all three stats to function properly (unless they guzzle pots or go for croc m/s gear) Warriors are the weakest class.
This is not about daggers and archers, its about having a balanced game where the tanks can actually function as such.

Archers are by far the most refined class and have the most versatility. And even with my armor wand nerfed, i for one am tired of having to tank with mage shield when i throw AoE bombs.

Warriors need a lot of improvement.

[Flamin]

Banned: Stop hating on warriors needing improvements, because they really do.

From the weapons, to the repetitve skill set, to the fact that they actually require all three stats to function properly (unless they guzzle pots or go for croc m/s gear) Warriors are the weakest class.
This is not about daggers and archers, its about having a balanced game where the tanks can actually function as such.

Archers are by far the most refined class and have the most versatility. And even with my armor wand nerfed, i for one am tired of having to tank with mage shield when i throw AoE bombs.

Warriors need a lot of improvement.

I agree, warriors are the weakest class, and therefore warriors need a lot of improvement.

[iNFaMous]

Archers are the most refined, but they are pretty balanced with mages.
It's just the Warriors that need to be brought up and and it shouldn't be a prelonging issue

[Azrael]

Archers are the most refined, but they are pretty balanced with mages.
It's just the Warriors that need to be brought up and and it shouldn't be a prelonging issue

This is not true at all. Mages are just as underpowered in regards to the benefits they receive from their stats, and by extensions their gear. For example mages receive no damage bonuses from intelligence, just like warriors receive no damage from strength. In fact the two classes are very similar in this respect. Mages gain .5 mana points per point of int, and it takes 50 mana to give 1 point of m/s. That is all they get from intelligence.

If you would like to know more, read this: http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?555-The-Thread-o-the-Future-By-the-Legends-Guild

[Splurd]

This is not true at all. Mages are just as underpowered in regards to the benefits they receive from their stats, and by extensions their gear. For example mages receive no damage bonuses from intelligence, just like warriors receive no damage from strength. In fact the two classes are very similar in this respect. Mages gain .5 mana points per point of int, and it takes 50 mana to give 1 point of m/s. That is all they get from intelligence.

If you would like to know more, read this: http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?555-The-Thread-o-the-Future-By-the-Legends-Guild

But mages are still a good character due to their list of usefull skills. Multiple aoe spells make crowd clearing a blast, so to speak.

Warriors are gimped, firstly in weapons, secondly in skills. For a character class which cannot kite and must rush into the fray, they dont really have a good skillset to deal with it.

[Azrael]

But mages are still a good character due to their list of usefull skills. Multiple aoe spells make crowd clearing a blast, so to speak.

Warriors are gimped, firstly in weapons, secondly in skills. For a character class which cannot kite and must rush into the fray, they dont really have a good skillset to deal with it.

I'm not saying that warriors don't need work, i'm saying that mages obviously need to be fixed as well. Btw when done properly a level 30 warrior tank specced is able to hold agro well. What warriors can't do properly atm is put out sustained dps. Level 30 warriors with 2h weapons and a 93 strength / 45+ dex build can put out high burst damage with the right (aka best) gear. Both classes need work is all that i'm saying. But seriously, the best stat for mages right now is dex and many of the high level mages are using bows. Its not like the warriors are using full int builds and using wands... unless you look at that wand warrior post. Anyway that was an attempt at humor but the point is both need work.

[Splurd]

personally, I think that stats are not balanced. str and int dont give enough bonuses as compared to dex.

But I think the melee weapons need a damage boost to compete with daggers attack speed. Rather then nerf daggers, buff swords.

[iNFaMous]

I'm not saying that warriors don't need work, i'm saying that mages obviously need to be fixed as well. Btw when done properly a level 30 warrior tank specced is able to hold agro well. What warriors can't do properly atm is put out sustained dps. Level 30 warriors with 2h weapons and a 93 strength / 45+ dex build can put out high burst damage with the right (aka best) gear. Both classes need work is all that i'm saying. But seriously, the best stat for mages right now is dex and many of the high level mages are using bows. Its not like the warriors are using full int builds and using wands... unless you look at that wand warrior post. Anyway that was an attempt at humor but the point is both need work.

Would you care to explain what build that tank might have? I have lv 5 Stomp, Taunt, Evasion & Beckon. 50 : 50 Str to Dex.
Yet I struggle to maintain any aggro and when I do I have to repeatedly tap my pots while getting critted 335 by a Normal monster ( with a healer present ).

And I'm pretty sure the reason you don't see int build warriors is because it would not benefit them at all, neither would it cater to their skillset.