Open letter to the devs

[wvhills]

Dear Devs,
I read the latest SL update and saw where the level of the drop you receive is now based on your level rather than the level of the highest level player in the party. I am asking you, please, do not bring this to Pocket Legends. In the update you specifically mentioned holiday maps. I'm glad you are listening to the concerns of the players (because higher levels coming in and ruining the drops in the halloween map was a problem) but I do not believe this is the way to address it. Many of us use scale farming as a source of income plus it is fun trying to get through a map with minimal level characters. If the drop goes to player level then scale farming will become extinct. Many of the players with twinks are still bitter due to the changes in dual spec (many items still haven't had their stat requirements changed) and turning off kill gains when xp is turned off.

I think players need goals to keep playing a game like this and many players once they are level capped go to twink scale farming. I myself made a new level 10 toon and spent over 100 plat on item equips, inventory slots, etc. (I've done the same with a level 20, 30, and 35). I personally know of several players (myself included) who were planing on getting a toon on every fifth level. If this change is made to PL then this source of revenue for STS will be lost (and twinks use elixirs also).

Overall, I thank you for listening to the voice of the players but I feel like simply making the halloween maps lockable would be a much better solution than a more drastic change such this.

Sincerely,
Robert

[ZHEOTARE]

Well said!!

[Gluttony]

Already tossed my opinion about this one into the ring, hope that the devs listen to reason but most changes have been carted PL side after a brief testing period. I think this issue was only voiced in PL due to the Halloween issue; this will indeed ruin another niche in the game that related to low level toons. STS doesn't seem to have love for our alternative forms of PL amusement. The Winter Festival shouldn't pose any issue since maps can be locked and high leveled unwanted characters can be kicked. All I can say foresee in the future is plenty of winter items up in cs in preparation for the collapse of the twink economy.

I've read some replies that are for this move since it can be used to lower the market, but you have to remember that this is just one aspect of the market and a way to make some actual gold. Removing the twink economy isn't necessarily going to cause the level cap gear to fluctuate, so this will in turn just remove a money making opportunity for some of the non-capped toons.

[wvhills]

I've read some replies that are for this move since it can be used to lower the market, but you have to remember that this is just one aspect of the market and a way to make some actual gold. Removing the twink economy isn't necessarily going to cause the level cap gear to fluctuate, so this will in turn just remove a money making opportunity for some of the non-capped toons.

I had a statement in the OP that addressed this but decided to take it out. I'll include it now:
"Some may feel this will benefit lower level players because they will have access to better equips at a lower level but it's my opinion that they can do what I did- take a main (or 3) to level cap and then use their gold to equip twinks and then scale farm for themselves".

I took it out because I thought it sounded harsh and I didn't mean it to be but I couldn't find any other way to word it. I know this is just a game and really doesn't mean anything but not everything in life has to be handed to you. There's nothing wrong with putting some work in to get the things you want whether it's in this game or in real life.

[RedRyder]

I agree with you, but they implemented SL's UI into PL, so we might get that same patch :/
Some will like it, others wont; damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[drewcapu]

Thanks for posting this. I was going to do the same as soon as I got to work this morning in hopes that it catches the devs' attention.

SL and PL are very different currently when it comes to scaled farming. PL simply has more desirable scaled items, especially at the lower levels.

The "problem" in the Halloween event isn't enough to warrant a change in the scaled drop dynamics. Even though maps weren't hostable, people were still able to "make groups" to drop items of the levels they were aiming for.

As has been said before, changing the drop mechanics only makes it easier for a low level toon to farm the item which lessens the value and scarcity of the item. It also promotes low levels essentially leeching the items in a group of higher levels rather than trying to make runs with only low levels.

[drewcapu]

Also, when it comes to holiday events where anybody of any level can be in an instance, if they are promoting L10s being in the same instance as a L60, they might as well make it so that the L10 takes on L10 damage instead of L60 damage.

Doesn't make sense, does it?

Once a L60 barges into a L10 run and the mobs become L60, all the L10s in the run become useless!

The problem I saw in Halloween wasn't that people couldn't make runs. The problem were the high levels barging into low level runs and not leaving when politely asked.

So, if this is implemented in PL for Winter Fest, we'll see the opposite happen.

We'll see low levels barging into high level instances and not do any work. They aren't going to attack. Why would they? They can't inflict damage. And if they do, they'll get attacked back and die in one hit. And it doesn't matter to them because they'll still get the low level drop they want!

[Ellyidol]

Due to my lack of experience in the lower level department, I don't know if this is the case, but is there a maximum level gap for players in the same map? Much like how it works in PvP, +/- 5 of the host.

If not, could see it working in PvE now. At least mitigates the blow towards lower level toons from being completely useless with a Lv 60 in a 25 campaign, to only slightly disadvantaged when a +5 Lv toon appears.

[drewcapu]

In PvE, the only restrictions in place are a minimum level. You have to be no more than 2 levels below the minimum level of the map. After that, anybody can be in the map. But since the maps only scale 5 levels for non-holiday maps (FH maxes at L10 even if a L60 is in it), it isn't that big of a deal except for the highly sought after minimum level pinks in each campaign.

Holiday maps scale to all levels, so gameplay there is totally affected by the levels of the players in the instance.

[Gluttony]

Due to my lack of experience in the lower level department, I don't know if this is the case, but is there a maximum level gap for players in the same map? Much like how it works in PvP, +/- 5 of the host.

There is a limit but it's more like +/-2 from the recommended level, for example Ancient Swaps level would be between 28 and 37, so a total of 9 level difference max for the drops but more than likely a difference of 5 for scaled items since they are at the bottom and top of the recommended levels. Take one of the more extreme examples using FH, a level 60 could do all the work while a level 1 could follow and get a level 1-2 drop from the bosses. These items aren't very rare or particularly useful but it's just an example of how this system can be exploited.

[drewcapu]

There is a limit but it's more like +/-2 from the recommended level, for example Ancient Swaps level would be between 28 and 37, so a total of 9 level difference max for the drops but more than likely a difference of 5 for scaled items since they are at the bottom and top of the recommended levels.
You can level in Swamps above L35, but the items and map will only scale to 35. Just like you can have a full group of L28s, but the maps and drops will only scale down to L30.


Take one of the more extreme examples using FH, a level 60 could do all the work while a level 1 could follow and get a level 1-2 drop from the bosses. These items aren't very rare or particularly useful but it's just an example of how this system can be exploited.

Them thar are words to get people's attention. hehe

[drewcapu]

Don't waste your time with the L1.

Just join any DF1 run with a L10 and hope for a pink armor.
Do the same with a L30 in swamps.

Honestly, the one that I have somewhat mixed feeling for is SSC. It's a campaign that people have to pay for and it is *DEAD*. There are L25s who bought it not knowing what it's about and they end up getting booted when they try to join a L21 farming group. There's no need to try to struggle with it on a L25 when you get the same drops doing it on a L50-60+.

The main problem with this *fix* is that it is really most useful for holiday maps where the scaling range is *huge*. At the same time, it's most useless in the holiday maps because, due to the scaling, the lower level players just end up leeching. On all other PvE maps, it basically does nothing but cause other problems.

[drewcapu]

Well, the one good thing that would come out of it is it'll be easier to find runs for my twinks because i can join any run I find in the join screen.

Leeching and economy be darned.

Perhaps this is STS's intention?

There are no gold sinks anymore. So instead, just make it so that prices for scaled items will be lower?

It might be true for lower leveled items. But the only thing I see will be that level cap items will grow exponentially in value every increase in cap instead. By the time we get to L70, level cap custom gear will fetch 9M per item.

What will happen then is there will be fewer and fewer people getting up to Sewers before quitting the game. Only the truly hardcore will bother with trying Nuri. Only the people who either have been here a long time or have the means of getting a ton of plat will go for level cap.

And it all started with taking away stash from L1s and taking out kills for frozen xp...

[Aikiebo]

Dear Devs,
I read the latest SL update and saw where the level of the drop you receive is now based on your level rather than the level of the highest level player in the party. I am asking you, please, do not bring this to Pocket Legends. In the update you specifically mentioned holiday maps. I'm glad you are listening to the concerns of the players (because higher levels coming in and ruining the drops in the halloween map was a problem) but I do not believe this is the way to address it. Many of us use scale farming as a source of income plus it is fun trying to get through a map with minimal level characters. If the drop goes to player level then scale farming will become extinct. Many of the players with twinks are still bitter due to the changes in dual spec (many items still haven't had their stat requirements changed) and turning off kill gains when xp is turned off.

I think players need goals to keep playing a game like this and many players once they are level capped go to twink scale farming. I myself made a new level 10 toon and spent over 100 plat on item equips, inventory slots, etc. (I've done the same with a level 20, 30, and 35). I personally know of several players (myself included) who were planing on getting a toon on every fifth level. If this change is made to PL then this source of revenue for STS will be lost (and twinks use elixirs also).

Overall, I thank you for listening to the voice of the players but I feel like simply making the halloween maps lockable would be a much better solution than a more drastic change such this.

Sincerely,
Robert

I'm trying to understand exactly what this possible change might be. I read the SL patch notes and this letter to the devs. This change, if understand it correctly, seems PERFECT for the players who want to control the level of their drops.

I don't see how this change would end low level farming any faster than being able to host/lock games. Don't get me wrong, I am not disagreeing with you or doubting you in any way. I am just trying to understand what your point of view is.

For example: If I'm on a lev 20 toon and I am all excited about getting as many level 20 holiday pinks as possible, I'm going to be able to get plenty level 20 drops if the holiday games are hostable/lockable, right? I'll be in complete control of the level of my drops.

But, if this change that you are worried about in this letter to the devs go through, won't I be able to do the exact same thing? All I have to do, is log on to one of my 20s, then zone into games, then as soon as the boss drops, I get a level 20 drop. Is that right, or am I completly misunderstanding something in the upcoming change that you are speaking against?

So either way, ain't I in complete control of the level of my drops?

Either way, I am going to get level 20 drops, right? I will be able to get as many level 20 drops that I want (or whatever level drop). The only thing that will limit the number of level 20 drops I get is the amount of time I can play while the holiday maps are live.

If I play a whole lot, I'll get a whole lot of level 20 drops. If I don't have a lot of time to play, then I won't get as many.

Either way, I am the one in control of how many drops I get and what the level of those drops will be.

And of course, if I use elixirs I will be able to get WAY more drops. But, I don't think that is really the issue here.

So this change seems perfect for the people who want to be in control of their drop level. But, you don't think that at all, lol. And I don't understand (again not disagreeing or doubting). It seems to me that this change that might happen should make you estatic.

I don't see how "scale farming is going to become extinct" as you say in your letter. Again, I am NOT disagreeing with you at all. I just don't understand the thinking on this subject. You may be right, I just can't see how the change you are objecting too will hurt or end low-level scaled farming.

It just seems like exactly what the low-level farming alts have been asking for. I don't see the difference between this and hosting/locking games.

What I do think, is that either alternative is going to really, really hurt the value of low-level holiday pinks.

First off, as many others have said, once the low-level alts got smart, it was easy to have basically an unlimited number of level 20 groups. And if, either change is made (hosting/locking or the one the op is talking about), then tons and tons of people are going to make level 20 groups and there will be a gigantic supply of level 20 drops. This will be bring the value of these items way, way down.

I do not understand why the people who want to profit big-time off these events wants ANYONE to be able to control their drop level. I was told by several that the mid and high levels that played these holdiay maps are helping NOT hurting the low-level farmers. It is because of the high levels that the items have huge value. It is the high levels that are making the low-level items rare. If everyone can control drop level then level 20 items are really, really not going to be rare and valuable at all, lol. It is thanks to the mid and high level players that the items are super valuable.

I'm sorry you spent so much plat on your 20 twink. You didn't have to do that. At least not for this last Halloween event. Level 20 boss went down in 10 - 30 seconds. It was really easy. All the level of bosses were really easy. The only reason that sometimes the high-level boss seemed hard is that a lot of times the high-level player was playing with low-level players so there wasn't a full or near-full group of high levels to take the boss on.

If this change goes into effect, can't you still make alts at every 5th level. That's basically what I have done. I thought many, many players did that already.

And yeah, like you, I thank the devs for listening to the players.

I hope the holidays work out the way you want them to.

[Skeletonlord]

good speech!

[drewcapu]

For example: If I'm on a lev 20 toon and I am all excited about getting as many level 20 holiday pinks as possible, I'm going to be able to get plenty level 20 drops if the holiday games are hostable/lockable, right? I'll be in complete control of the level of my drops.

Yes.



But, if this change that you are worried about in this letter to the devs go through, won't I be able to do the exact same thing? All I have to do, is log on to one of my 20s, then zone into games, then as soon as the boss drops, I get a level 20 drop. Is that right, or am I completly misunderstanding something in the upcoming change that you are speaking against?

So either way, ain't I in complete control of the level of my drops?

The way it currently works for holiday maps is, if you start a run as a L20 and then a L60 joins the run before you encounter the boss, his level scales up to L60 and he hits you like a L60 would and will give a L60 drop to the whole group.

If PL follows suit with the recent SL change, the same as the above would apply, except you would get a L20 drop instead.

For holiday maps, this might sound like a good thing at first glance.

That is until a L60 starts a run and finds a bunch of L10s joining him staying as far away as possible so that they don't die in one hit.

This may not sound like a big deal, but do remember how things are in Sewers also. A lot of runs in Sewers aren't locked. Think about how hard it is for a L55 to do a run if he's joined by a bunch of L51s. This will not work for non-player-started games due to the lack of boot capabilities.

It may not seem like it at first, but this change will promote leeching.

[ZHEOTARE]

[QUOTE=robert7204:478438]
I don't see how "scale farming is going to become extinct" as you say in your letter. Again, I am NOT disagreeing with you at all. I just don't understand the thinking on this subject. You may be right, I just can't see how the change you are objecting too will hurt or end low-level scaled farming.
way, way down.


I don't think scale farming would become extinct. The problem is the value of the items would plummet. The reason for this is this... It makes it so much easier.

Example: I want to farm Dark Forest, stage one for lv10 gear. Right now, I can solo in, lets say, 4 minutes. With a group, maybe 2.5 minutes. The time it takes makes it undesirable for most people to want to do. However, with the possible new system, I can get a high level to clear the stage with me. Now we are clearing the stage in 1 minute. This makes the farm more desirable to more people.

Thus, more lv 10 drops are now in the market causing the prices to drop. A lv 10 armor that at the moment is worth 1.5m, will now be worth, say, 100k.

I agree that we have a good system in place. The issue with the halloween event is the inability to host/lock games. Then, high levels not leaving low level farming groups, and vice versa. My understanding is the winter event did not have that issue because you could host/lock your games

[drewcapu]

I don't think scale farming would become extinct. The problem is the value of the items would plummet. The reason for this is this... It makes it so much easier.

It won't become extinct, per se. But it will definitely be easier to do, in some cases, for those who know how to optimize their farming. As a result, as mentioned many times already, prices will plummet (to an extent). L10 Pink Armors will still be very difficult to farm, but you'll definitely see them in CS more often.

When it comes to DF1 farming, you'd also basically be able to just rush the boss since you don't have to worry about how many enemies are remaining.

You'll also see more high levels trying to lowball low levels for their drops. Probably not a good thing.

[Fyrce]

If this change is ported to PL, it'll definitely change our world.

It's easiest to see this affecting lower levels in an area: such as players in FH dropping items they can use, which probably is a good thing. Players would drop items at or close to their level even as they join higher level players or higher level players join them. On the face, this sounds like a positive. Players would join the highest level group they could find in the campaign they're interested in running, leveling and dropping useable items at the same time. This is generally how most games work.

The flip side, though, isn't just the possible leeching, though I can see plenty of "fun-with-high-level-players" possibilities, particularly in open maps or holiday maps that are generally not hosted.

How many players are like me: We might do a bit of scale farming, but we also use our current gear, join higher level players, and try to drop the end gear items we'll use when we finally level a bit. So for example, after the 1st few days or week, most gear dropped from BS runs are L55 gear, which means that a player can start L55 farming pretty much when someone meets the minimum level to enter a campaign. With the SL-style drops though, that no longer will be true. An L48, L49, L50, L51 and possibly an L52 will drop L51 gear, which currently sounds great, until you realize what that means to drop the L55 BS sets -- you have to be least L55. Maybe L54. A player from L48-L53 will always drop the scaled pinks.

In that sense, the end-level items will likely go up in price, particularly sets. That will likely be where the farmers will go -- from lower level scaled farming to higher level end-campaign farming. Instead of taking 3-5 levels to farm your end-campaign pinks or sets, you will now have to be at that higher level or even level beyond the top level of the campaign.

This might actually mean that those "higher" level equips won't be that useful to the ones farming, since they'll likely have leveled beyond the level of the drop before they get those items.

When I read about this implementation for SL, I thought about how the SL stuff has been ported to PL and then about how things I find interesting to do keep getting programmed out :)

But then I thought about what this means, because I not only scale farm, but I also run with higher level players in order to start dropping the higher level equips and sets. If this change is ported though, I'll always just be dropping the scaled items, not the end-campaign stuff until I get high enough in levels, which means a much shorter window where I receive both xp and a possibility of end-campaign drops. So for example, in Nuri's, after the 1st few days, most of the runs include a level 60, which means a chance at an L60 Glyph even though I'm L56. However, if the SL style drops are implemented, does this mean that my L56 could only get L56 pinks, which aren't bad, but will mean that I have to be L59 or L60 to drop L60 items or I'll have to troll the CS.

I think this means higher prices on the end-game items and sets, which BTW, are already high-priced.

Anyways, just another thought!

[drewcapu]

AGREED!

The pricing ramifications will present themselves in an entirely different monster at the level cap campaigns.

Without gold sinks, whatever is the currently highest level gear will demand the highest prices.

When L61 Pinks first start dropping, those will be roughly 3M until L63 starts dropping and L65 starts dropping.

Essentially, there won't be a point in "farming" low level gear in the higher campaigns. Reverse pricing!

If you ask me, the one thing that can stop the gold madness will be to have non-combo elixirs with scaled gold pricing. ie... keep the current 2k gold xp elixirs for up through L50 players and have higher priced gold elixirs for Levels above 50. The scaling can probably change based on what set of 5 levels are the top levels. New gold elixir pricing would be a good thing even without changes to PL's scaled drops.

[Aikiebo]

[/QUOTE]
except you would get a L20 drop instead.

For holiday maps, this might sound like a good thing at first glance.

That is until a L60 starts a run and finds a bunch of L10s joining him staying as far away as possible so that they don't die in one hit.

This may not sound like a big deal, but do remember how things are in Sewers also. A lot of runs in Sewers aren't locked. Think about how hard it is for a L55 to do a run if he's joined by a bunch of L51s. This will not work for non-player-started games due to the lack of boot capabilities.

It may not seem like it at first, but this change will promote leeching.[/QUOTE]

Ahhh.... one thing is, I didn't realize this change was for all maps of PL all year long. Both the op and the post over at SL mentioned holiday maps, so I thought it was just that.

So now I can see bit more of the concern and of the issues involved. I was wondering what the stir was all about, cuz this is basically what the low-level alt holiday farmers wanted -- a way to control drop level.

Even tho, like I was saying, this is going to make holiday drops almost worthless. EVERYONE is going to farm level 10 or 20, w/e they think is going to be valuable. Players begged for a way to control drop level. And now that it looks like they might get what they wished for, it's just gonna render holiday pinks almost worthless.

Be careful of what you wish for.

As far as a level 60 having to run the Halloween maps basically solo cuz low levels over in cornor leaching. There were many, many times, really just a huge percentage of mixed groups where the low-levels helped out. The times when there was actual leaching by low-levels is when they were mad at the high-levels for being there. It didn't happen that often. When it did, I didn't care, cuz, well, the map was set up for all levels.

And, like I said before, the boss wasn't that hard. There were numerous times I had to solo the 60 boss while on my 53 dex mage. It was ez. Yeah, took bit longer than if I was in a group of course, but it wasn't hard at all.

There are only a very few instances in this game when the above is going to be an issue. Cuz most everything is hostable/lockable.

Your example of high-levels and low-levels mixing it up in the sewers, well, so often, players get real good at doing the same thing over and over, with the same people, with the same gear. They get real good at that, in fact. But, it is important to be able to be flexible and to be capable of handling the unexpected and something other than what you've already done 2000 times, lol. But, this is a whole nuther thread, lol.

But for me, as far as holiday maps go, I am totally ok with w/e sts decides to do, cuz i am sure they are doing what is best for the game and I'm gonna have fun wether hostable/lockable or w/e they decide to do. I don't care one way or the other. But, hmm... yeah, for overall game this is a larger issue.

Edit: btw, I have no idea how this post is formatting on the pc, but on this device, the quote at top is all underlined. I have no idea how that happened. I did nothing on purpose for that to happen. I'm very sorry.

[drewcapu]

Halloween is easy compared to Winter Fest.

I don't care what level you are. If a snowman all of a sudden becomes 25 levels higher than you are, you are going to die!

Toy Man takes a long time to solo at your own level. If he becomes 25 levels higher than you are, you are going to die!

:)

[ZHEOTARE]

I don't think scale farming would become extinct. The problem is the value of the items would plummet. The reason for this is this... It makes it so much easier.

It won't become extinct, per se. But it will definitely be easier to do, in some cases, for those who know how to optimize their farming. As a result, as mentioned many times already, prices will plummet (to an extent). L10 Pink Armors will still be very difficult to farm, but you'll definitely see them in CS more often.

When it comes to DF1 farming, you'd also basically be able to just rush the boss since you don't have to worry about how many enemies are remaining.


So you're saying the same thing I said to clarify my comments??

Lol!!

[Gluttony]

I was in Balefort Castle talking about the change with some of the farming groups and it seems that they're actually for the change:

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/7089/img1281.png

I must say it's getting quite discouraging to see that most of the updates are breaking the game more than fixing it. There are numerous bugs from the emote that appears in the status screen when attacking, to the overlap of vanity items vs regular gear... I see plenty for the staff at STS to work on but they continue to overlook these issues and remove something that players have learned to integrate into the dynamic of the game. Changes like this continue to reinforce my choice to not spend money on this game due to the fact that PL/SL is always one update away from becoming a game that I no longer enjoy.

[Aikiebo]

I was in Balefort Castle talking about the change with some of the farming groups and it seems that they're actually for the change:

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/7089/img1281.png

I must say it's getting quite discouraging to see that most of the updates are breaking the game more than fixing it. There are numerous bugs from the emote that appears in the status screen when attacking, to the overlap of vanity items vs regular gear... I see plenty for the staff at STS to work on but they continue to overlook these issues and remove something that players have learned to integrate into the dynamic of the game. Changes like this continue to reinforce my choice to not spend money on this game due to the fact that PL/SL is always one update away from becoming a game that I no longer enjoy.

If these changes get implemented, I don't think that they will be breaking the game at all. This game is getting better and better. It seems to me, that the purpose of this change, is so that more and more players can loot (and otherwise obtain) the better gear. This is a good thing!! If more than a tiny few have hope of obtaining the best stuff (at all levels) this will ATTRACT and HOLD players. The only peole that MAY lose out is the people who spend a huge amount of time to farm and hold back on items to manipulate the market so that they can profit huge. Which in principal I have no problem with. But if good business sence and an overwhelming concern for the game/community at large takes a back seat to private greed then that hurts the game.

The farmers and merchants who are can roll with the punches, be agile and flexible will be the most resilient and will be able to survive as farmers/merchants. Some of their approach to what they do may have to change, but that's ok, if it helps the game.

[Gluttony]

If these changes get implemented, I don't think that they will be breaking the game at all. This game is getting better and better. It seems to me, that the purpose of this change, is so that more and more players can loot (and otherwise obtain) the better gear. This is a good thing!! If more than a tiny few have hope of obtaining the best stuff (at all levels) this will ATTRACT and HOLD players. The only peole that MAY lose out is the people who spend a huge amount of time to farm and hold back on items to manipulate the market so that they can profit huge. Which in principal I have no problem with. But if good business sence and an overwhelming concern for the game/community at large takes a back seat to private greed then that hurts the game.

The farmers and merchants who are can roll with the punches, be agile and flexible will be the most resilient and will be able to survive as farmers/merchants. Some of their approach to what they do may have to change, but that's ok, if it helps the game.

Well I am more for players actually playing the proper campaign with others of the same level and gaining gear that they can use, over players rolling with a pack of over powered bodyguards so they can leech "the best stuff" the game has to offer. This change doesn't really promote a team dynamic but will attract a breed of player that doesn't have to learn the game. I don't merch, so the loss of revenue isn't really my point. I am focusing on what it removes from the game, which has basically been there since the beginning and is now being removed to fix what exactly?

I see that you think this is about greed and perhaps that is one aspect of it, but it has quite a lot to do with the fact that those same farmers/merchants carved this area out for themselves and it's now being take away. I recall a thread about Evolt (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?37069-Out-of-Business...thoughts-on-CS), one of the game's biggest merchants, calling it quits due to the fact that it was no longer lucrative. If that is the case and the items that allow lower leveled players to gain large sums of gold gets removed, then those same players that "manipulate the market" have even more power than before.

[Aikiebo]

[QUOTE=Aikiebo;48044

Well I am more for players actually playing the proper campaign with others of the same level and gaining gear that they can use, over players rolling with a pack of over powered bodyguards so they can leech "the best stuff" the game has to offer. This change doesn't really promote a team dynamic but will attract a breed of player that doesn't have to learn the game. I don't merch, so the loss of revenue isn't really my point. I am focusing on what it removes from the game, which has basically been there since the beginning and is now being removed to fix what exactly?

I see that you think this is about greed and perhaps that is one aspect of it, but it has quite a lot to do with the fact that those same farmers/merchants carved this area out for themselves and it's now being take away. I recall a thread about Evolt (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?37069-Out-of-Business...thoughts-on-CS), one of the game's biggest merchants, calling it quits due to the fact that it was no longer lucrative. If that is the case and the items that allow lower leveled players to gain large sums of gold gets removed, then those same players that "manipulate the market" have even more power than before.[/QUOTE]

Gluttony, I'm sorry, you misunderstood what I was saying.

I am all for farming and merchanting. And I firmly believe that if you are a farmer and/or merchant and you are really, really good at what you do, you should be rewarded.

There is nothing wrong with being a rich farmer/merchant.

But if in a quest to get / stay rich, the market is being manipulated in such a way that it hurts the game, then that is a bad thing.

If this change happens, I believe that there are still gonna be rich famers and merchants. It just looks like they are gonna have to change their methods a bit. But, they will be able to survive if they are good at thinking things through, if they are agile/flexible and can roll with the punches. If they are resilient, they will survive.

One possible change, instead of having farming alts at every fifth level, a farmer/merchant may want to have a few more at the various in-between levels (i.e. not just alts at 10 and 15, but also, like at 11, and/or 12 and/or 13 and/or 14: just an example). This is going to sell a ton of elixrs, lol.

It just seems to me, that the point of this change, at least in part, is to allow more and more players to get their hands on the better gear (at all levels). This will attract players and hold players a lot longer.

It's kind of amusing to me when I see people acuse other's of wanting to get the best gear for themselves and call them leechers, but if the merchants want to hord the best then manipulate the market that seems morally ok, lol.

I think that what some are alarmed at is the idea, as you said that this will promote leaching. I have said many times in the past, that I can't stand leaching. There was always one extremely MINOR exception in my mind, but it is not important to the game play cuz it is irelevant cuz so small and not even possible in this game. Then another exception to my hatred of leaching just occured to me as I played the Halloween maps. Some leaching did happen. Sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for stupid, tarded reasons. But, in either case, as others have said I didn't really see it as such a big deal. Those runs were so short lived, not much of issue.

But, what I think people are talking about with this change is way huge. But in 99% of the game leeching it NOT going to happen unless the high level involved is ok with it. Cause of ability to lock games. If a high level is in forest haven farming rares and is all uptight about low-level players being in there also, all he has to do is lock his games.

So unless, STS nerfs the ability of high-levels in low-level dungeons, I think farmers/merchants will be able to figure out a way to deal with and accept these changes. And if, the players of high/low levels are working in cooperation then it's not leeching so much as it is a business arrangement.

Maybe STS will nerf the ability of higher levels in low-level dungeons. For the players who live in mortal fear of power leveling, lol, that should make you happy.

But remember, be careful of what you wish for. The Halloween farmers begged for a way to control drop-level. If this change happens, they have what they begged for but seem unhappy about it.

But no matter what happens, if more players vs. less players are attracted to and stay with the game longer, that is a very, very good thing. We all have to put our individual interests below what is best for the game overall.

Farmers and merchants can be as rich as they are good enough to be, but hopefully they can maintain a sense of community in addition to the desire to obtain as much gold as possible.

[drewcapu]

i can live with it either way. but that doesn't mean i'm gonna like it. for me the biggest 'good thing' is that you'll always be dropping gear you can use.

however, as far as i'm concerned, it'll mean the death of pve twinks.

you may ask, is it still leeching if a low level group is being helped by a high level friend/guildie?

it may not seems so, but it is since the low levels don't have to do any work.

this will be the optimal method for farming any of the good scaled pinks (and purp L15 xbows).

and that's just on the low end of the spectrum.

there won't be any need to farm scaled pinks for end game. the harder drops to get will *always* be the top level gear since not as many players will be there.

there will be more begging in the game. why? because there won't be a way for ppl to make decent money until they get closer to level cap. remember when laser wands were over 300k? remember when there were a ton of shadow cave gear in cs? you're gonna be broke if you're still working on BS right now.


if any if you think glut and i were essentially bumping this thread on friday, you might be right. but i do hope at least some if what we've discussed has made sense to some.


ultimately i was/am hoping for a dev to explain the reasoning behind the change. it can't just be the halloween thing because that is such an isolated example. this change would affect a huge part of the gameplay if/when it comes to PL.

[Fyrce]

I agree that the primary effect of this change will likely be that players generally will drop gear they can use or soon use, such as a level 30 dropping level 31 items, independent of the composition of the group, versus dropping level 35 items, which would take that player longer to be able to use.

I'm not sure I agree that players will more easily end up in the best equipment:

The best equipment in general, for each level, are pinks. These will generally still be rare to drop, which means a player would have to farm a bit at that level to acquire that equip. I think most players will end up with a mixture of equips, ranging from their level down, unless they use the CS. This might result in a greater amount of various level equips in general, but I am not sure it means each player will have that gear without actually pausing every few levels.

Farmers might take advantage of this by, yes, creating farming toons every other level or so, depending on the scaling of the drops. So for example, for swamps farming, farmers might have L31, L33 and L35 twinks. Farmer will farm the in-between equips for players who do not otherwise have the time.

Pinks though are not really the best equipment. The best equipment are the various SETS, which, unless STS changes this, are available only at the max level for that area. For example, the Balefort Sewers sets are not the L51 equips nor the L53 equips, but just the L55 equips. Previously, people spent the entire time they were leveling from L51 to L55 (4-5 levels) farming L55 equips. Most people did not scale farm. The change would make everyone scale farm, so that actually farming for L55 SETS can occur only when one is L55, or possibly L54.

This might not make a difference for some place like the Sewers, where many sets and pinks are available. However, imagine new pinks and SETS at level 15 in a new area for level 10-15. Players can enter the area at level 8 but those players would drop L11 items. Maybe level 10 items. The SETS are only for the level 15 equips. At level 15, the players can begin to make their sets. Almost all of them will level out of that area (no xp after level 18) before they drop enough pinks. Farmers will make up some of the demand, but without the help of the general population farming, farmers will not be able to meet the demand. The 'best' equips will end up being the 'best' priced.

Think of right now, the amount of time and number of people involved in farming the end-level equips for each area. Now quarter that time (at least) and probably quarter the number of people (or even fewer). Now think of the pricing...

Good? Bad? I'm undecided. I just think that'll be the new reality. Maybe that means people will stop a bit at the end levels before moving on to the next area? OTOH, the next area will have new stuff...

I seriously doubt a few dedicated farmers (the future) can match the dropping ability of everyone who plays in the area (the present situation).

[drewcapu]

I'm beginning to think about how Mt. Fang would be if they implemented the new drop mechanics.

Think about how rare it is to get glyphs in Nuri and all the materials you need to make a Demonic set.

Now imagine having to wait until you reach the top level for the campaign (non-elite) to start dropping the scalable items, as opposed to just being a L55-L59 in a run with a L60.

When Mt. Fang comes out and Nuri is no longer the cap, *nobody* L55-60 will be able to make a Demonic set without using CS. I can pretty much guarantee it.

And when it comes to trying to get top gear in Mt. Fang, well, that'll be another thing...

[MightyMicah]

WELL said man. I agree whole heartedly. However, the simple truth is, STS does not. If you look very carefully you will notice that STS is trying to get rid of twinking. Don't believe me?

1. They started adding cap level bonuses. This will encourage people to level up and not twink. The bonuses are massive. Irresistable.

2. They ended pve twinking for kills. This made all those who were twinking for that reason want to level up.

3. This next update. They are now removing the scale farmers. Scale farmers are now leveling up...or will be

What's next? Pvp twinking? I can't say for sure. But I can say this: I wouldn't be surprised. After all there are simple solutions to each and every problem presented, STS just doesn't seem to want twinks. I don't know why, but I've resolved to just trust the devs and go with it. Thanks you for reading this post, and best of luck to you.

~~~MightyMicah

[StompArtist]

Agreed entirely.

[Samhayne]

Thanks for the good thoughts on both sides of the fence.

[Snakespeare]

I'm mostly OK with it.

Mainly I think it would result in lower prices. My twinks are already pretty much useless. I made some just so they could be dual-class, and that got nerfed. I made others at the high end of each campaign to use the old pinks that would otherwise have been deleted, but it turned out I should have made them at the low end. And I made up stories in my head about them then they changed the stories. I leveled my mules finally, after months of pleading to allow level 1 to access stash but all the gear I had on my mules is now equally useless, since the twinks no longer have a reason to exist. I tried being deathless but that never caught on; being "an immortal" had no significance if it can't be recognized in a public way.

But it's the JOURNEY not the destination, I have to remind my self, that makes the game fun. So I guess that's where I was whacky thinking about twinks.

And PL has really entered into a grinding/leveling phase due to the logarithmic XP requirements (thanks Cinco et.al. for the two week reprieve).

So am I for or against drops scaling the new way they do in SL?

I'm OK with it. This darn game keeps changing. Whatever reason I had for making 14 characters seems ludicrous now. If I only had one character like most of the 133t, I would have complained through all the long level caps and built up huge stockpiles of gp from rushing in Boss Gauntlet, Plasma Pyramid, and Victory Lap. I would have gained items of persistence. And I would probably have a character in O&C like many of them.

I failed to see the changes in the wind. So, while this simply would make my style of play even more off-the-beaten-track, I really can't complain. The game I played was simply a different game. I can play the new game. It's an elixir game now, right? I should have started playing the new game months ago instead of struggling to try to make it stay the same in my head.

STS has learned a huge amount about game balance since they first started out. They really have a choice between making PL as consistent as SL is, or freezing PL. I think if they freeze PL... if they froze it before the day they incorporated the SL code... it would have stagnated and died. I feel their only profitable way forward is to make PL and SL consistent.

As a result, my level 51 oranges are all liquidation fodder. I used to be able to sell them for a modest fee. But what was that money for? To buy other items that I needed. Well, if those items are also cheaper, then it should even out.

But I think I will re-read all those very nicely discussed opinions above again because I'm not sure about my final opinion yet.