What Endgame PvP Really Needs

[Congeniality]

Hi all,

For those of you aware, I have been posting as of late about the current state of fox, and unfortunately have gotten little response from the community, thus, I am taking a new approach and going to suggest things that I think each class could use to make the game a healthier place for all :)! This discussion will be solely regarding endgame PvP, as I find talking about the lower levels to frankly be boring.

The Big Three:
168857

At the time of PL's launch, the only three classes available were the Archer, Enchantress, and the Warrior. To this day, these three classes remain both the most played and the relative strongest in PvP throughout most levels.

Archer:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/pocketlegends/images/c/ca/PL_avian_badge.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110427120639

Currently, the archer, or bird, is indisputably the second strongest class in endgame PvP. However, contrary to previous power surges, the bird's power this cap resides in its tankiness. Rather than having the ability to deal damage beyond comprehension for my puny peanut brain, it now gains 10k hp and 1k armor upon receiving the talon proc bonus. Because of this bonus, the bird is seeing a lot of play, and is generally unhealthy for PvP balance. Suggestions I would have are:


Lowering Base Armor From Talon Itself (Thus lowering the base armor of talon set)
Lowering Health Given From Proc
Removing Armor Bonus From the Proc


Enchantress:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/pocketlegends/images/5/5b/PL_enchantress_badge.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110427120947

At the present moment, enchantress finds itself in perhaps the most healthy state it has been in since it's release. Historically, the mage has either been relatively overpowered, as seen in 66 and 80 caps (mage was op in those caps imo), or extremely weak as seen in 76, 77 and 85 caps. Now, we see mage at a point in which it is a true supportive class with high damaging abilities. The only few things I would look to tweak mage would be:


Nerf Mana Regen on the Wand Proc by 10%
Buff or Create a Visual Update For the Endgame Elite Staff (I don't even know what it's proc is... that's how seldom it is used)


Warrior:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/pocketlegends/images/3/37/PL_bear_badge.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110427105810

Warrior (bear), yet again, is a class that seems to be in the best spot it has been in a while. The bear had been anywhere from viable to overpowered from 56-77 cap. However, 80, 85 and 100 did not treat the bear as nicely, and finally we see the bear with a relative buff since our last cap. I would say that the bear at the moment does its job, it provides the best crowd control in the game (stuns, hit % buffs, more stuns XD), while also being tanky enough to survive well longer than any other class.... (besides bird). For relative changes to bear, I would:


Increase Base Armor Stat on Endgame Elite Set
Increase Base Damage on Super Mega Slash
Reduce the Cooldown Of the Abillity "Stomp" by 1-2 Seconds at Rank 10


The Not-So Dynamic Duo:
168858

Paladin:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/gF2v-LAcbcOzSxKvnAXWYWdbzx9eZZ34pa5Tmsc25NsRtQh9RbDub-kQZypGPAJ9BU0bF15donswEpVu6CaFSyZKBGlZSCstM4Vjuf_s 8PUuFhtMSBu9Bnw=w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu

Paladin (rhino), being the easily noticeable to be the most overpowered class at level 105 has received much criticism for its unbelievable survivability in conjunction with its relatively high damage, which in turns allows it to assassinate enemies without taking a knick of damage. This class is the epitome of unhealthy gameplay at level 105. Although I may be biased because I play the squishiest character in game (fox), I find it unfun to be taken to 1/4 health by two abilities in a cap where it takes 10 abilities for me to get any other class to that hp.

A lot has been said about the set Rhinos are currently using, the Volta Dagger Set. However, I believe that this attribution of strength has been misguided onto the set, when in reality it lies on the class. If you watch closely, it is clear to see that rhino is even MORE overpowered when using the strength set. Furthermore, we see foxes using the dagger set and being easily the least playable class in the game period. Thus I would say that the rhino class is the issue, not the dagger set. Changes I would make are:


Lower Paladin Skill Damage
Lower Paladin Dodge Buff
Lower Paladin Armor Buff
Increase Crit Chance on Paladin Crit Buff
Decrease Paladin Heal Scaling (Scales with INT)
Decrease Paladin "Charge!" Damage by 60%


Ranger:
https://o.aolcdn.com/images/dims?thumbnail=1200%2C630&quality=80&image_uri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.blogcdn.com%2Fmassivel y.joystiq.com%2Fmedia%2F2012%2F12%2Fpl.jpg&client=cbc79c14efcebee57402&signature=737a6bb7d3e0e5e3c2d30418d7a9b8573e661885

Finally, I believe it is beyond apparent that the fox class is the most under-powered at endgame PvP. Why is this? As mentioned in my post the last week, it is because the fox currently does nothing better than another class. It nukes worse than the mage, tanks worse than the bird, crowd controls worse than the bear, and dashes around the map worse than the rhino. So what is fox good for? "NADA!" What does the fox say? NADA, because it's too busy dying to every other class in PvP. I would reiterate what I have said in other posts, but for the sake of length, I will decide against it here. If you want in depth explanations, you can search for it in the general discussion. Changes I would make are:


Increase Dodge Buff Time While Also Increasing It's Cooldown Proportionally
Increase Fox Slow Debuff on Needle Abilities
Decrease Fox Cooldown on Howl
Increase Fox Bonus Armor Given From Evasion
Increase Armor On Volta Dagger (If it becomes class specific)
As a LAST RESORT, Give Fox An Unstun On Howl

[Cinco]

Good write-up! I look forward to our fellow players' contribution to the thread!! :-)

[killinclaw]

I like all the pictures, very nice visuals. I would like to see cooldown of Stomp reduced as well and I do agree with you on fox needing an actual unstun.

[Fwend]

Years ago Dollway made a thorough thread about balancing pvp.

Thank you for making this thread Walie, it is what Cinco needs to help with his pursuit of balancing end game pvp.

It was what I was trying to suggest in the nerf dagger thread. For someone to make a thread like this.

The bow range is still an issue, and when it procs skilled players are difficult to counter.

The fox class needs a healing skill that negates stuns, roots, ice, include this with the bandage skill.

The rhino class has skills restore and redemption. Similar to mage class with skills heal and drain life. But the mage is less tanky than the rhino. Please reduce the regan buff in rhinos restore and the amount health stolen in redemption.

[Absolize]

So you’re saying make paladin completely useless? Nerf every single thing that I need besides crit. What seems fair to me, nerf the damage in general and buff the “Guardian” buff to last longer. The only thing I play currently is the Paladin class, and Walie, you’ve watched before your very eyes the Ranger class get destroyed as caps when on. Please don’t encourage the same thing to happen to the Paladin. I love playing rhino in my own way, and I feel I’ve mastered my class, that is why I’m very good at moving around and being consistent.

Coming from I would say a very skilled rhino, here is what could be done to nerf it but make it still able to kill and not make it completely useless:

- BUFF the “Guardian” buff to last a bit longer, maybe like a 5 second addition, and a slightly bigger armor advantage, so I can run in and serve my role as the tank without all the debuffs nuking me at once.
- NERF the damage in general, not by an insane amount because the way I play rhino I like to play with a damage/support build like a mage for example, making it tank as much as it needs to, to be able to kill in 1v1 PvP but also play its role in FFA or CTF (The “tank” of course) also making it not be able to kill as fast give the other class a chance to perform better. Point is for this make rhino not be able to kill AS FAST.
- LEAVE EVERY OTHER BUFF AS IS! While I’m a long time player of rhino I realize without those buffs I die easy, as of every other class with their buffs. If my buffs got nerfed me being the tank I couldn’t tank enough for the damage classes to do their job.
- NERF the heal. The rhino is not the best class this cap, Mage is, I’ve found out that using the volta dagger is a way rhinos can kill mages (because of high dps autos) in any other way I’ve not seen a rhino be able to beat mages, but this could make or break. If the heal is nerfed, not a to intense one is what I’m getting at. So, if the rhino heal is nerfed, mages heal would also have to be nerfed, rhinos heal takes longer to cooldown than mages so there’s a disadvantage there, so that would need to be tweaked to balance. If this happened and mage was left alone rhino would have no chance vs mages, that’s not how it should be, every class should have a chance. Rhino already has to be close and mostly when it comes to mages they have 8-12m attacks. Rhino needs to tank so I have time to get close.

Being a long time rhino player, this is what I’ve come to. What I listed I think would be a fair balance between the support classes. :)

-Hook

[Congeniality]

So you’re saying make paladin completely useless? Nerf every single thing that I need besides crit. What seems fair to me, nerf the damage in general and buff the “Guardian” buff to last longer. The only thing I play currently is the Paladin class, and Walie, you’ve watched before your very eyes the Ranger class get destroyed as caps when on. Please don’t encourage the same thing to happen to the Paladin. I love playing rhino in my own way, and I feel I’ve mastered my class, that is why I’m very good at moving around and being consistent.

Coming from I would say a very skilled rhino, here is what could be done to nerf it but make it still able to kill and not make it completely useless:

- BUFF the “Guardian” buff to last a bit longer, maybe like a 5 second addition, and a slightly bigger armor advantage, so I can run in and serve my role as the tank without all the debuffs nuking me at once.
- NERF the damage in general, not by an insane amount because the way I play rhino I like to play with a damage/support build like a mage for example, making it tank as much as it needs to, to be able to kill in 1v1 PvP but also play its role in FFA or CTF (The “tank” of course) also making it not be able to kill as fast give the other class a chance to perform better. Point is for this make rhino not be able to kill AS FAST.
- LEAVE EVERY OTHER BUFF AS IS! While I’m a long time player of rhino I realize without those buffs I die easy, as of every other class with their buffs. If my buffs got nerfed me being the tank I couldn’t tank enough for the damage classes to do their job.
- NERF the heal. The rhino is not the best class this cap, Mage is, I’ve found out that using the volta dagger is a way rhinos can kill mages (because of high dps autos) in any other way I’ve not seen a rhino be able to beat mages, but this could make or break. If the heal is nerfed, not a to intense one is what I’m getting at. So, if the rhino heal is nerfed, mages heal would also have to be nerfed, rhinos heal takes longer to cooldown than mages so there’s a disadvantage there, so that would need to be tweaked to balance. If this happened and mage was left alone rhino would have no chance vs mages, that’s not how it should be, every class should have a chance. Rhino already has to be close and mostly when it comes to mages they have 8-12m attacks. Rhino needs to tank so I have time to get close.

Being a long time rhino player, this is what I’ve come to. What I listed I think would be a fair balance between the support classes. :)

-Hook

Hi Hook,

Firstly, thank you for your input.

When I generically said "nerf this", and "nerf that", I didn't necessarily mean nerf it hard. My vision was to remove a fifth of the dodge and a fifth of the armor from the buffs, while decreasing the overall damage a rhino can deal. That being said, I also felt that the crit buff should compensate for any lack of kill potential the rhino may have from the overall damage nerf.

On a side note, I stand by my belief in the "Nerf 'Charge!' Damage by 60%".

Thank you!
Walie

EDIT: Thus, the class would be still be tankier than the bear considering its heal while also having just slightly less kill potential, mostly relying on its crit buff for kill pressure.

[Absolize]

Hi Hook,

Firstly, thank you for your input.

When I generically said "nerf this", and "nerf that", I didn't necessarily mean nerf it hard. My vision was to remove a fifth of the dodge and a fifth of the armor from the buffs, while decreasing the overall damage a rhino can deal. That being said, I also felt that the crit buff should compensate for any lack of kill potential the rhino may have from the overall damage nerf.

On a side note, I stand by my belief in the "Nerf 'Charge!' Damage by 60%".

Thank you!
Walie

EDIT: Thus, the class would be still be tankier than the bear considering its heal while also having just slightly less kill potential, mostly relying on its crit buff for kill pressure.

Okay, understood what you think will be balanced, but if that were to happen nerfing the Paladins armor/dodge, the crit buff will need a buff you are correct, BUT, also I feel adding time to the “Guardian” buff would need to take place if these suggestions were to happen.

On another note, rhinos skill damage is not good as it is, I rely on autos and timing. I heavily disagree with the “Charge!” skill being nerfed, the other suggestions are acceptable with the added time on “Guardian”.

[Congeniality]

Okay, understood what you think will be balanced, but if that were to happen nerfing the Paladins armor/dodge, the crit buff will need a buff you are correct, BUT, also I feel adding time to the “Guardian” buff would need to take place if these suggestions were to happen.

On another note, rhinos skill damage is not good as it is, I rely on autos and timing. I heavily disagree with the “Charge!” skill being nerfed, the other suggestions are acceptable with the added time on “Guardian”.

With all due respect, I feel as though your requested state for rhino is still overpowered. One fifth off of "Brute Force" would still give you +24% Dodge, on fifth off of stone skin would give 46 armor, one fifth off of guardian would give 40 armor and 16 dodge.

Thus, you would still have +91 armor, and +40% dodge for 8 seconds, then +46 armor and +24% Dodge for another 4 seconds, and finally "Brute Force" wears off after 20 seconds.... by that time, Guardian is back up (20 second cooldown) and stone skin is 2/3 of the way back up (32.5 second cooldown)

I find those stats to still be very, VERY good.

IF WE DID YOUR +5 SECOND BUFF, YOUR STATS WOULD BE:

+113 Armor, +50% Dodge for 12 seconds, then, at 13 seconds, you would have +55 armor, +50% dodge, and finally, you would have +5 armor and +30% dodge until your "Brute Force" would wear off at 20 seconds, at which point Guardian is back up.

I am sorry, but the numbers say that your class is ridiculously overpowered to the point of just being broken, and doing any less than what I stated wouldn't do anything.

Note, I get one dodge buff that lasts 10 seconds, and is my only unroot AND I DO LESS DAMAGE THAN YOU.

Furthermore, Guardian unroots you AND nearby allies, SO BASICALLY YOU ARE A FREE WIN! With a +5 second duration, you would have the buff for 65% of the time you are fighting, unrooting yourself for free, and your allies.

[Mine AGK]

Hi all,

For those of you aware, I have been posting as of late about the current state of fox, and unfortunately have gotten little response from the community, thus, I am taking a new approach and going to suggest things that I think each class could use to make the game a healthier place for all :)! This discussion will be solely regarding endgame PvP, as I find talking about the lower levels to frankly be boring.

The Big Three:
168857

At the time of PL's launch, the only three classes available were the Archer, Enchantress, and the Warrior. To this day, these three classes remain both the most played and the relative strongest in PvP throughout most levels.

Archer:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/pocketlegends/images/c/ca/PL_avian_badge.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110427120639

Currently, the archer, or bird, is indisputably the second strongest class in endgame PvP. However, contrary to previous power surges, the bird's power this cap resides in its tankiness. Rather than having the ability to deal damage beyond comprehension for my puny peanut brain, it now gains 10k hp and 1k armor upon receiving the talon proc bonus. Because of this bonus, the bird is seeing a lot of play, and is generally unhealthy for PvP balance. Suggestions I would have are:


Lowering Base Armor From Talon Itself (Thus lowering the base armor of talon set)
Lowering Health Given From Proc
Removing Armor Bonus From the Proc


Enchantress:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/pocketlegends/images/5/5b/PL_enchantress_badge.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110427120947

At the present moment, enchantress finds itself in perhaps the most healthy state it has been in since it's release. Historically, the mage has either been relatively overpowered, as seen in 66 and 80 caps (mage was op in those caps imo), or extremely weak as seen in 76, 77 and 85 caps. Now, we see mage at a point in which it is a true supportive class with high damaging abilities. The only few things I would look to tweak mage would be:


Nerf Mana Regen on the Wand Proc by 10%
Buff or Create a Visual Update For the Endgame Elite Staff (I don't even know what it's proc is... that's how seldom it is used)


Warrior:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/pocketlegends/images/3/37/PL_bear_badge.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110427105810

Warrior (bear), yet again, is a class that seems to be in the best spot it has been in a while. The bear had been anywhere from viable to overpowered from 56-77 cap. However, 80, 85 and 100 did not treat the bear as nicely, and finally we see the bear with a relative buff since our last cap. I would say that the bear at the moment does its job, it provides the best crowd control in the game (stuns, hit % buffs, more stuns XD), while also being tanky enough to survive well longer than any other class.... (besides bird). For relative changes to bear, I would:


Increase Base Armor Stat on Endgame Elite Set
Increase Base Damage on Super Mega Slash
Reduce the Cooldown Of the Abillity "Stomp" by 1-2 Seconds at Rank 10


The Not-So Dynamic Duo:
168858

Paladin:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/gF2v-LAcbcOzSxKvnAXWYWdbzx9eZZ34pa5Tmsc25NsRtQh9RbDub-kQZypGPAJ9BU0bF15donswEpVu6CaFSyZKBGlZSCstM4Vjuf_s 8PUuFhtMSBu9Bnw=w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu

Paladin (rhino), being the easily noticeable to be the most overpowered class at level 105 has received much criticism for its unbelievable survivability in conjunction with its relatively high damage, which in turns allows it to assassinate enemies without taking a knick of damage. This class is the epitome of unhealthy gameplay at level 105. Although I may be biased because I play the squishiest character in game (fox), I find it unfun to be taken to 1/4 health by two abilities in a cap where it takes 10 abilities for me to get any other class to that hp.

A lot has been said about the set Rhinos are currently using, the Volta Dagger Set. However, I believe that this attribution of strength has been misguided onto the set, when in reality it lies on the class. If you watch closely, it is clear to see that rhino is even MORE overpowered when using the strength set. Furthermore, we see foxes using the dagger set and being easily the least playable class in the game period. Thus I would say that the rhino class is the issue, not the dagger set. Changes I would make are:


Lower Paladin Skill Damage
Lower Paladin Dodge Buff
Lower Paladin Armor Buff
Increase Crit Chance on Paladin Crit Buff
Decrease Paladin Heal Scaling (Scales with INT)
Decrease Paladin "Charge!" Damage by 60%


Ranger:
https://o.aolcdn.com/images/dims?thumbnail=1200%2C630&quality=80&image_uri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.blogcdn.com%2Fmassivel y.joystiq.com%2Fmedia%2F2012%2F12%2Fpl.jpg&client=cbc79c14efcebee57402&signature=737a6bb7d3e0e5e3c2d30418d7a9b8573e661885

Finally, I believe it is beyond apparent that the fox class is the most under-powered at endgame PvP. Why is this? As mentioned in my post the last week, it is because the fox currently does nothing better than another class. It nukes worse than the mage, tanks worse than the bird, crowd controls worse than the bear, and dashes around the map worse than the rhino. So what is fox good for? "NADA!" What does the fox say? NADA, because it's too busy dying to every other class in PvP. I would reiterate what I have said in other posts, but for the sake of length, I will decide against it here. If you want in depth explanations, you can search for it in the general discussion. Changes I would make are:


Increase Dodge Buff Time While Also Increasing It's Cooldown Proportionally
Increase Fox Slow Debuff on Needle Abilities
Decrease Fox Cooldown on Howl
Increase Fox Bonus Armor Given From Evasion
Increase Armor On Volta Dagger (If it becomes class specific)
As a LAST RESORT, Give Fox An Unstun On Howl


I play the main 3 classes and i know fox and rhino both need to be balanced out more then the OG 3. Rhino needs to be tanky but shouldnt recieve as much heal as it does. (Mainly at L105)
I agree with your write ups here Walie. The only other thing that is another contributing factor to endgame being unbalanced is enchantments. Of course 1 step at a time in the right direction is nice but once this is all sorted out, we need to address the P2W aspect at endgame.

[Absolize]

With all due respect, I feel as though your requested state for rhino is still overpowered. One fifth off of "Brute Force" would still give you +24% Dodge, on fifth off of stone skin would give 46 armor, one fifth off of guardian would give 40 armor and 16 dodge.

Thus, you would still have +91 armor, and +40% dodge for 8 seconds, then +46 armor and +24% Dodge for another 4 seconds, and finally "Brute Force" wears off after 20 seconds.... by that time, Guardian is back up (20 second cooldown) and stone skin is 2/3 of the way back up (32.5 second cooldown)

I find those stats to still be very, VERY good.

IF WE DID YOUR +5 SECOND BUFF, YOUR STATS WOULD BE:

+113 Armor, +50% Dodge for 12 seconds, then, at 13 seconds, you would have +55 armor, +50% dodge, and finally, you would have +5 armor and +30% dodge until your "Brute Force" would wear off at 20 seconds, at which point Guardian is back up.

I am sorry, but the numbers say that your class is ridiculously overpowered to the point of just being broken, and doing any less than what I stated wouldn't do anything.

Note, I get one dodge buff that lasts 10 seconds, and is my only unroot AND I DO LESS DAMAGE THAN YOU.

Furthermore, Guardian unroots you AND nearby allies, SO BASICALLY YOU ARE A FREE WIN! With a +5 second duration, you would have the buff for 65% of the time you are fighting, unrooting yourself for free, and your allies.

And, that’s where you’re wrong. When I tap Guardian, it will unroot, IF ANYONE IS ROOTED AT THAT TIME! It does not unroot my allies for as long as it lasts, the benefits are only to me. The Guardian buff only will clear negative effects to them once (which is when I activate it) AND it’s not like they can be unroofed from anywhere, they have to be close to me. Otherwise, it is STRICTLY my heal, which has a longer cooldown than mages so that takes a HUGE toll in FFA gameplay. Also, with a massive decrease in my dodge/armor, the “Guardian” buff would need a buff for the Paladin class to remain useable. You’re asking for a all loss no gain here with Paladin, Walie. And no, if our enchants matched you would do loads more damage than me so you have to put that in effect. A player that doesn’t have the best enchants isn’t gonna beat a player with great enchants in 1v1. How the game works now sadly.

[Congeniality]

And, that’s where you’re wrong. When I tap Guardian, it will unroot, IF ANYONE IS ROOTED AT THAT TIME! It does not unroot my allies for as long as it lasts, the benefits are only to me. The Guardian buff only will clear negative effects to them once (which is when I activate it) AND it’s not like they can be unroofed from anywhere, they have to be close to me. Otherwise, it is STRICTLY my heal, which has a longer cooldown than mages so that takes a HUGE toll in FFA gameplay. Also, with a massive decrease in my dodge/armor, the “Guardian” buff would need a buff for the Paladin class to remain useable. You’re asking for a all loss no gain here with Paladin, Walie. And no, if our enchants matched you would do loads more damage than me so you have to put that in effect. A player that doesn’t have the best enchants isn’t gonna beat a player with great enchants in 1v1. How the game works now sadly.

The math remains valid. End of story. That's all I will argue about my opinions on rhino. With math backing it, I see no convincing me. I think we will need to agree to disagree

[3pc]

A Paladin is half bear half mage and Ranger is half bear half bird. We can see in endgame that rhino is very OP with the right sets but can still be killed. Foxes on the other hand are bad no matter what in endgame unless they get a proper set which hasn't happened since 77 cap. Even though fox is half bear we dont see the tankiness in it which i feel is the problem. They can do a lot of dmg (with the proper gear) but not enough armor and such to survive which is why rhino is so OP at endgame and fox class is not.

[Mine AGK]

A Paladin is half bear half mage and Ranger is half bear half bird. We can see in endgame that rhino is very OP with the right sets but can still be killed. Foxes on the other hand are bad no matter what in endgame unless they get a proper set which hasn't happened since 77 cap. Even though fox is half bear we dont see the tankiness in it which i feel is the problem. They can do a lot of dmg (with the proper gear) but not enough armor and such to survive which is why rhino is so OP at endgame and fox class is not.

Rhino isnt balanced out with this new gear. Remember to take into account the +15 and +5 skill points added from 85-100 and 100-105. Both those caps, rhino became OP. I dont think it was adjusted for those points added. Bear/mage/bird didnt get much in terms of getting those extra skill points. Bear- a little more armor (after ironblood was fixed when stats didnt increase from 9-10)
Mage- a bit more armor with buffs and a slightly longer lasting MS (which at the point is gone in 2-3 seconds of auto)
Bird- more dodge for buffs and just a tad more damage from some points.

Rhino gained so much because it has 4 buffs. Adding the extra 20 points for rhino meant they could MAX out ALL their buffs and still deal damage. It was only after they gained those extra 15 skill points from 85-100 they became OP.

[Absolize]

The math remains valid. End of story. That's all I will argue about my opinions on rhino. With math backing it, I see no convincing me. I think we will need to agree to disagree

Walie, you need to understand a rhinos role is a tank with not nearly as much crowd control as a bear, your “math” makes rhino irrelevant in teams.

[Congeniality]

Walie, you need to understand a rhinos role is a tank with not nearly as much crowd control as a bear, your “math” makes rhino irrelevant in teams.

So perhaps the crowd control abilities may need more utility if your armor and dodge get nerfed? What if Holy Tempest had a damage debuff on it instead of hit chance? What if your stomp decreased mana regen instead of hp regen to counter the mage mana pool? Do you think those could work? I honestly find rhino far too tanky right now so I stand by my statements earlier, but these might help you fulfill the role of a tank still.

(Keep in mind that my 1/5 nerf suggestion wouldn't be costing you much..... like 10% dodge and 22 armor so it seems very fair to me......).

[Draebatad]

Just noting that Paladins are supposed to be tanky warriors with mage abilities per the AD&D designs after which it was adapted here. Nice thread BTW.

[Buchmeister]

Bears are disgusting in 1v1s. The sword if not bear needs some definite help

[Absolize]

So perhaps the crowd control abilities may need more utility if your armor and dodge get nerfed? What if Holy Tempest had a damage debuff on it instead of hit chance? What if your stomp decreased mana regen instead of hp regen to counter the mage mana pool? Do you think those could work? I honestly find rhino far too tanky right now so I stand by my statements earlier, but these might help you fulfill the role of a tank still.

(Keep in mind that my 1/5 nerf suggestion wouldn't be costing you much..... like 10% dodge and 22 armor so it seems very fair to me......).

Understood, but if those nerfs DID happen, people would yet again complain how it was “not enough” or something. Honestly if it was to be nerfed, a lot of my skills would need tweaking to make me useful still.

[Congeniality]

Bears are disgusting in 1v1s. The sword if not bear needs some definite help


Understood, but if those nerfs DID happen, people would yet again complain how it was “not enough” or something. Honestly if it was to be nerfed, a lot of my skills would need tweaking to make me useful still.

I have heard from several bears that a lot of the time it feels like you are stunned too much of the fight to be able to do much, whether that be a 1v1 or FFA. That's why I included my suggestion of a 1-2 second cooldown reduction of the "stomp" skill. This in turn would make bear a little more mobile overall (stomp destuns) and thus create more wiggle room for warriors to stick to their opponents.

@Absolize, Keep in mind that you are using dex set. With str set, you would be much tankier and have comparable damage. The only reason rhino can utilize dagger set right now is because it is over tuned. When reading my suggestions, imagine yourself playing with a str set, as the fact that you can use dex set effectively on paladin at the moment is because of the over tuning.

[Absolize]

I have heard from several bears that a lot of the time it feels like you are stunned too much of the fight to be able to do much, whether that be a 1v1 or FFA. That's why I included my suggestion of a 1-2 second cooldown reduction of the "stomp" skill. This in turn would make bear a little more mobile overall (stomp destuns) and thus create more wiggle room for warriors to stick to their opponents.

@Absolize, Keep in mind that you are using dex set. With str set, you would be much tankier and have comparable damage. The only reason rhino can utilize dagger set right now is because it is over tuned. When reading my suggestions, imagine yourself playing with a str set, as the fact that you can use dex set effectively on paladin at the moment is because of the over tuning.

I can use more than the dagger, the dagger isn’t needed for me to pvp I rarely use it, only for 1v1 some of the time. As of right now for me being able to compete in the tournament (you also) dex set is needed for us. Plus I feel as if I prefer the nukey playstyle.

[jackelpl1035]

I hope fox can be op like rhino too lol.

通过我的 SM-N935F 上的 Tapatalk发言

[Waug]

What endgame pvp need at very first is to fix the utmost broken thing that is proc, proc should be nerfed highly, not just talon proc but each and every proc because proc is random, proc is luck based and proc is so high that, proc is the single most valuable thing that decides the outcome of a fight.

- Skill buffs and debuffs should be increased significantly, because they are getting minimal effect because of high amount of stats, eg armor, damage, hit% etc and those things are crucial determining your skill and command on pvp because what's the difference if someone spamming his skill and the other experienced one doing his skills in a right sequence, debuffing at right places. Combos matter less in endgame the very first basis of skilled pvp.

- Once procs have little value after nerfing, there's no point decreasing talon, rather it need dmg boost maybe even in form of dmg proc like +100 yes talon doesn't need defensive prc, it need offensive proc.

- Bear doens't need further buff, it was buffed recently

- Every 2h weapon need buffing if we need to see them in this scenerio but str and int ones need more buffs than dex one of course.

- We don't need and we don't want elites to become class bound, specially because we're in a good situation right now where, every class prefer to use it's own gear cause of the advantages it has, very few exception eg rhino dagger. From my point of view, it's because dagger bringing the extra damage they need, they have defensive stats, degger seems to complete the duality, maybe the solution is to change dagger's offensive procs to defensive proc.

- Fox need slight buff true but it should also be kept in mind that, it has dashes which is a "skill" that's what you get as a skill advantage, so basically if fox get as much defensive and offensive skill as other class with no speed advantage, it's actually getting op. Once dagger getting it's proc changed I think fox gonna get the thing that it need most is defensive stat.

To be very concise.

[yannjoel]

There is one thing confusing me :D I dont think that bear was underpowered at 76-77

[Congeniality]

There is one thing confusing me :D I dont think that bear was underpowered at 76-77

I think you read it wrong.

[Congeniality]

What endgame pvp need at very first is to fix the utmost broken thing that is proc, proc should be nerfed highly, not just talon proc but each and every proc because proc is random, proc is luck based and proc is so high that, proc is the single most valuable thing that decides the outcome of a fight.

- Skill buffs and debuffs should be increased significantly, because they are getting minimal effect because of high amount of stats, eg armor, damage, hit% etc and those things are crucial determining your skill and command on pvp because what's the difference if someone spamming his skill and the other experienced one doing his skills in a right sequence, debuffing at right places. Combos matter less in endgame the very first basis of skilled pvp.

- Once procs have little value after nerfing, there's no point decreasing talon, rather it need dmg boost maybe even in form of dmg proc like +100 yes talon doesn't need defensive prc, it need offensive proc.

- Bear doens't need further buff, it was buffed recently

- Every 2h weapon need buffing if we need to see them in this scenerio but str and int ones need more buffs than dex one of course.

- We don't need and we don't want elites to become class bound, specially because we're in a good situation right now where, every class prefer to use it's own gear cause of the advantages it has, very few exception eg rhino dagger. From my point of view, it's because dagger bringing the extra damage they need, they have defensive stats, degger seems to complete the duality, maybe the solution is to change dagger's offensive procs to defensive proc.

- Fox need slight buff true but it should also be kept in mind that, it has dashes which is a "skill" that's what you get as a skill advantage, so basically if fox get as much defensive and offensive skill as other class with no speed advantage, it's actually getting op. Once dagger getting it's proc changed I think fox gonna get the thing that it need most is defensive stat.

To be very concise.

Dash isn't defensive because I can't dash away unless I have an alternate target to lock onto who is over 12m away. I have to dash in. Thus, I find that I am constantly dashing into instantly dieing because I have the least armor, health, and dodge, and unroot of any class.

[Mine AGK]

Dash isn't defensive because I can't dash away unless I have an alternate target to lock onto who is over 12m away. I have to dash in. Thus, I find that I am constantly dashing into instantly dieing because I have the least armor, health, and dodge, and unroot of any class.

Once again. Rhino gained 15 points from 85-100 and still no one addressed that? Before 100 cap rhinos had to sacrifice buffs for damage or damage for buffs. Now they can MAX OUT ALL BUFFS with those extra points.

Birds have 2 buffs
Mages have 2 buffs
Bear technically has 4 buffs (taunt, rage, evade, ironblood)
Fox has 2 or 3? Cant remember.
Rhino has 4 buffs.

Rhinos only became OP AFTER gaining those extra 15 points which helped them max out all buffs and be able to also output damage. There was no having to sacrifice damage/buffs to fit peoples play styles.
Before 100 cap, rhino actually took skill to play, at this point it doesnt. Its too tanky and dodges way too much.

[MageFFA]

Hi all,

For those of you aware, I have been posting as of late about the current state of fox, and unfortunately have gotten little response from the community, thus, I am taking a new approach and going to suggest things that I think each class could use to make the game a healthier place for all :)! This discussion will be solely regarding endgame PvP, as I find talking about the lower levels to frankly be boring.

The Big Three:
168857

At the time of PL's launch, the only three classes available were the Archer, Enchantress, and the Warrior. To this day, these three classes remain both the most played and the relative strongest in PvP throughout most levels.

Archer:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/pocketlegends/images/c/ca/PL_avian_badge.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110427120639

Currently, the archer, or bird, is indisputably the second strongest class in endgame PvP. However, contrary to previous power surges, the bird's power this cap resides in its tankiness. Rather than having the ability to deal damage beyond comprehension for my puny peanut brain, it now gains 10k hp and 1k armor upon receiving the talon proc bonus. Because of this bonus, the bird is seeing a lot of play, and is generally unhealthy for PvP balance. Suggestions I would have are:


Lowering Base Armor From Talon Itself (Thus lowering the base armor of talon set)
Lowering Health Given From Proc
Removing Armor Bonus From the Proc


Enchantress:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/pocketlegends/images/5/5b/PL_enchantress_badge.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110427120947

At the present moment, enchantress finds itself in perhaps the most healthy state it has been in since it's release. Historically, the mage has either been relatively overpowered, as seen in 66 and 80 caps (mage was op in those caps imo), or extremely weak as seen in 76, 77 and 85 caps. Now, we see mage at a point in which it is a true supportive class with high damaging abilities. The only few things I would look to tweak mage would be:


Nerf Mana Regen on the Wand Proc by 10%
Buff or Create a Visual Update For the Endgame Elite Staff (I don't even know what it's proc is... that's how seldom it is used)


Warrior:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/pocketlegends/images/3/37/PL_bear_badge.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110427105810

Warrior (bear), yet again, is a class that seems to be in the best spot it has been in a while. The bear had been anywhere from viable to overpowered from 56-77 cap. However, 80, 85 and 100 did not treat the bear as nicely, and finally we see the bear with a relative buff since our last cap. I would say that the bear at the moment does its job, it provides the best crowd control in the game (stuns, hit % buffs, more stuns XD), while also being tanky enough to survive well longer than any other class.... (besides bird). For relative changes to bear, I would:


Increase Base Armor Stat on Endgame Elite Set
Increase Base Damage on Super Mega Slash
Reduce the Cooldown Of the Abillity "Stomp" by 1-2 Seconds at Rank 10


The Not-So Dynamic Duo:
168858

Paladin:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/gF2v-LAcbcOzSxKvnAXWYWdbzx9eZZ34pa5Tmsc25NsRtQh9RbDub-kQZypGPAJ9BU0bF15donswEpVu6CaFSyZKBGlZSCstM4Vjuf_s 8PUuFhtMSBu9Bnw=w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu

Paladin (rhino), being the easily noticeable to be the most overpowered class at level 105 has received much criticism for its unbelievable survivability in conjunction with its relatively high damage, which in turns allows it to assassinate enemies without taking a knick of damage. This class is the epitome of unhealthy gameplay at level 105. Although I may be biased because I play the squishiest character in game (fox), I find it unfun to be taken to 1/4 health by two abilities in a cap where it takes 10 abilities for me to get any other class to that hp.

A lot has been said about the set Rhinos are currently using, the Volta Dagger Set. However, I believe that this attribution of strength has been misguided onto the set, when in reality it lies on the class. If you watch closely, it is clear to see that rhino is even MORE overpowered when using the strength set. Furthermore, we see foxes using the dagger set and being easily the least playable class in the game period. Thus I would say that the rhino class is the issue, not the dagger set. Changes I would make are:


Lower Paladin Skill Damage
Lower Paladin Dodge Buff
Lower Paladin Armor Buff
Increase Crit Chance on Paladin Crit Buff
Decrease Paladin Heal Scaling (Scales with INT)
Decrease Paladin "Charge!" Damage by 60%


Ranger:
https://o.aolcdn.com/images/dims?thumbnail=1200%2C630&quality=80&image_uri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.blogcdn.com%2Fmassivel y.joystiq.com%2Fmedia%2F2012%2F12%2Fpl.jpg&client=cbc79c14efcebee57402&signature=737a6bb7d3e0e5e3c2d30418d7a9b8573e661885

Finally, I believe it is beyond apparent that the fox class is the most under-powered at endgame PvP. Why is this? As mentioned in my post the last week, it is because the fox currently does nothing better than another class. It nukes worse than the mage, tanks worse than the bird, crowd controls worse than the bear, and dashes around the map worse than the rhino. So what is fox good for? "NADA!" What does the fox say? NADA, because it's too busy dying to every other class in PvP. I would reiterate what I have said in other posts, but for the sake of length, I will decide against it here. If you want in depth explanations, you can search for it in the general discussion. Changes I would make are:


Increase Dodge Buff Time While Also Increasing It's Cooldown Proportionally
Increase Fox Slow Debuff on Needle Abilities
Decrease Fox Cooldown on Howl
Increase Fox Bonus Armor Given From Evasion
Increase Armor On Volta Dagger (If it becomes class specific)
As a LAST RESORT, Give Fox An Unstun On Howl


I can agree on most points but i don't believe rhino is the most OP class this Season/level, i think that title goes to mage here. I'll touch up with rhino and correct some points starting with rhinos infamous charge. Me being a long time rhino player it comes with a perk noting that max charge is mostly useless. I'm not going to say who but there is a rhino in Apex who only use 1 charge. Could be Goah could be hook but it's one of them. Nerfing charge by 60% would NOT change anything on damage just like maxing rabid was never useful in any cases. If you're wanting to know where the damage lies then it's simple, juiced.

The Juiced combo is your equivalent of drain that never works. You're supposed to get HP back but it never seems to do anything but dmg. Nerfing rhino Juiced COULD cripple the class again like many years prior. That's the entire blame of why rhino sucked in the first place. Touching juiced and Holy Tempest would make the class overall garbage like bird in levels lower than 45. I would not recommend doing this what so ever.

Paladins dodge is a joke i refuse to touch on it but I'll be the one to say that i NEVER USE BRUTE. If i could take those 4 skill points and invest it into Vital or Rev i would. Paladins Dodge does need a nerf to stop people from spamming but not to the point where it cannot dodge any attacks. Fully agreed on that one.

Decreasing heal scale is eh. Heres the thing, it's not really about the health given but the the HP Regen that comes with it. Reducing int would just force rhinos to go either pure str or dex. Me being pure Dex already i don't see the problem with this unless you're fighting str tank rhinos.

Rhinos armor buff is the same amount as bears Iron Blood. They tank just the same amount but bears are more durable as a whole. Nerfing rhinos armor would just make them as tanky as a mage which could hurt their credibility as a supporting tank. If you do that then there would be no point in rhinos anymore. Why play rhino that's inferior as a support compared to mage that's not even a supporting class. Armor is the only good thing about rhinos. Their heal is 5 seconds which takes forever and makes a difference in a fight. They have absolutely no damage and this is backed by the Arena of Honor. Their DMG Party buff, THAT ONLY BUFFS DMG, is a weak 46 when players in Endgame is in 4 digit number not 3 anymore. Rhinos health is the biggest kick. Even mages have morr health than us which is why mages could completely dominate a rhino in a fight. It's the sets that are your problem not the class. Though Fox is a whole different subject

Foxes in endgame is no where near the OP announce it is in twink. In twink foxes dodge every attack and every auto from players no matter their weapon. I can spam dagger and 80% of the attacks don't land. And foxes dmg in twink is a dead joke so when i saw that StS buffed their damage by 25% i died inside. Instead of Rabid Ham being the 2shot it's now just rabid.......help us cinco. Foxes need more DODGE, CRITICAL, DAMAGE, and more skill dmg/Buff. Have you tried talon fox walie if that doesn't work then StS will need to revamp the class.

[Absolize]

I can agree on most points but i don't believe rhino is the most OP class this Season/level, i think that title goes to mage here. I'll touch up with rhino and correct some points starting with rhinos infamous charge. Me being a long time rhino player it comes with a perk noting that max charge is mostly useless. I'm not going to say who but there is a rhino in Apex who only use 1 charge. Could be Goah could be hook but it's one of them. Nerfing charge by 60% would NOT change anything on damage just like maxing rabid was never useful in any cases. If you're wanting to know where the damage lies then it's simple, juiced.

The Juiced combo is your equivalent of drain that never works. You're supposed to get HP back but it never seems to do anything but dmg. Nerfing rhino Juiced COULD cripple the class again like many years prior. That's the entire blame of why rhino sucked in the first place. Touching juiced and Holy Tempest would make the class overall garbage like bird in levels lower than 45. I would not recommend doing this what so ever.

Paladins dodge is a joke i refuse to touch on it but I'll be the one to say that i NEVER USE BRUTE. If i could take those 4 skill points and invest it into Vital or Rev i would. Paladins Dodge does need a nerf to stop people from spamming but not to the point where it cannot dodge any attacks. Fully agreed on that one.

Decreasing heal scale is eh. Heres the thing, it's not really about the health given but the the HP Regen that comes with it. Reducing int would just force rhinos to go either pure str or dex. Me being pure Dex already i don't see the problem with this unless you're fighting str tank rhinos.

Rhinos armor buff is the same amount as bears Iron Blood. They tank just the same amount but bears are more durable as a whole. Nerfing rhinos armor would just make them as tanky as a mage which could hurt their credibility as a supporting tank. If you do that then there would be no point in rhinos anymore. Why play rhino that's inferior as a support compared to mage that's not even a supporting class. Armor is the only good thing about rhinos. Their heal is 5 seconds which takes forever and makes a difference in a fight. They have absolutely no damage and this is backed by the Arena of Honor. Their DMG Party buff, THAT ONLY BUFFS DMG, is a weak 46 when players in Endgame is in 4 digit number not 3 anymore. Rhinos health is the biggest kick. Even mages have morr health than us which is why mages could completely dominate a rhino in a fight. It's the sets that are your problem not the class. Though Fox is a whole different subject

Foxes in endgame is no where near the OP announce it is in twink. In twink foxes dodge every attack and every auto from players no matter their weapon. I can spam dagger and 80% of the attacks don't land. And foxes dmg in twink is a dead joke so when i saw that StS buffed their damage by 25% i died inside. Instead of Rabid Ham being the 2shot it's now just rabid.......help us cinco. Foxes need more DODGE, CRITICAL, DAMAGE, and more skill dmg/Buff. Have you tried talon fox walie if that doesn't work then StS will need to revamp the class.

This is another one who knows what he’s talking about when it comes to rhinos. Nerfing “Holy Tempest” or the “Juiced!” combo would destroy rhino, a “Brute Force” nerf is acceptable.

[Congeniality]

I can agree on most points but i don't believe rhino is the most OP class this Season/level, i think that title goes to mage here. I'll touch up with rhino and correct some points starting with rhinos infamous charge. Me being a long time rhino player it comes with a perk noting that max charge is mostly useless. I'm not going to say who but there is a rhino in Apex who only use 1 charge. Could be Goah could be hook but it's one of them. Nerfing charge by 60% would NOT change anything on damage just like maxing rabid was never useful in any cases. If you're wanting to know where the damage lies then it's simple, juiced.

The Juiced combo is your equivalent of drain that never works. You're supposed to get HP back but it never seems to do anything but dmg. Nerfing rhino Juiced COULD cripple the class again like many years prior. That's the entire blame of why rhino sucked in the first place. Touching juiced and Holy Tempest would make the class overall garbage like bird in levels lower than 45. I would not recommend doing this what so ever.

Paladins dodge is a joke i refuse to touch on it but I'll be the one to say that i NEVER USE BRUTE. If i could take those 4 skill points and invest it into Vital or Rev i would. Paladins Dodge does need a nerf to stop people from spamming but not to the point where it cannot dodge any attacks. Fully agreed on that one.

Decreasing heal scale is eh. Heres the thing, it's not really about the health given but the the HP Regen that comes with it. Reducing int would just force rhinos to go either pure str or dex. Me being pure Dex already i don't see the problem with this unless you're fighting str tank rhinos.

Rhinos armor buff is the same amount as bears Iron Blood. They tank just the same amount but bears are more durable as a whole. Nerfing rhinos armor would just make them as tanky as a mage which could hurt their credibility as a supporting tank. If you do that then there would be no point in rhinos anymore. Why play rhino that's inferior as a support compared to mage that's not even a supporting class. Armor is the only good thing about rhinos. Their heal is 5 seconds which takes forever and makes a difference in a fight. They have absolutely no damage and this is backed by the Arena of Honor. Their DMG Party buff, THAT ONLY BUFFS DMG, is a weak 46 when players in Endgame is in 4 digit number not 3 anymore. Rhinos health is the biggest kick. Even mages have morr health than us which is why mages could completely dominate a rhino in a fight. It's the sets that are your problem not the class. Though Fox is a whole different subject

Foxes in endgame is no where near the OP announce it is in twink. In twink foxes dodge every attack and every auto from players no matter their weapon. I can spam dagger and 80% of the attacks don't land. And foxes dmg in twink is a dead joke so when i saw that StS buffed their damage by 25% i died inside. Instead of Rabid Ham being the 2shot it's now just rabid.......help us cinco. Foxes need more DODGE, CRITICAL, DAMAGE, and more skill dmg/Buff. Have you tried talon fox walie if that doesn't work then StS will need to revamp the class.


This is another one who knows what he’s talking about when it comes to rhinos. Nerfing “Holy Tempest” or the “Juiced!” combo would destroy rhino, a “Brute Force” nerf is acceptable.

The class does too much damage in my opinion, and it's tankiness is slightly overtuned. I find nerfing the dodge and armor to be a straight forward solution to the ultra-tankiness, and I find the damage nerf to account for the one shotting op rhino this cap. I don't think there is anything beyond that I really need to say. I look forward to hearing what other people think about my rhino propositions.

[MageFFA]

The class does too much damage in my opinion, and it's tankiness is slightly overtuned. I find nerfing the dodge and armor to be a straight forward solution to the ultra-tankiness, and I find the damage nerf to account for the one shotting op rhino this cap. I don't think there is anything beyond that I really need to say. I look forward to hearing what other people think about my rhino propositions.

If i was a dev i wouldn't even give rhinos dodge like that to be honest with you. I've been complaining about nerfing rhinos dodge since 100 cap.