Ellyidol
11-14-2011, 11:00 PM
First of all, a big thank you to the devs for releasing Mount Fang. The rate of content upgrades lately have been astoundingly fast - controversial, but always a good thing.
In previous expansions, the bear was always the slight underdog in PvP. No, it wasn't completely useless or powerless, but it wasn't at par with the birds and mages either. However, bears have always had one of the best roles in PvE. They made everything in PvE easier - clearing mobs, tanking bosses, and preventing deaths.
Unfortunately, in Fang, things seem to have changed. The PvP aspect of bears are still lacking, especially if you compare them to other melee classes, but worst of all, it seems the PvE strengths have also been removed rendering the class almost useless.
I know, it's early, it's only been a few hours into the expansion, but it doesn't take hours of killing the same bosses/mobs to realize and observe what the changes have been. Others are pretty straightforward, you tank and spank the boss. Other bosses have more mechanics, which may have not been fully countered yet, but are pretty clear.
Also, there are those interested in PvE or PvP only. That said, I'll divide this into those two sections so you don't have to read the area you don't want to.
Finally, please note that I could be mistaken - in fact, I hope I am. A new update always brings the entire community together, I was extremely happy to be playing with my guild again and seeing all my friends that I haven't seen in a long time online on my friends list. This is why I wanted to make this post. If the same update that brings these people back together is the same update that also pushes them away, there is definitely something wrong.
PvE
There is small discussion on the bear's PvE shortcomings here:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?42521-Tip-For-Defeating-Aunt-Emma
(http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?42521-Tip-For-Defeating-Aunt-Emma)
I have three main points,
1. Mob clearing (CC-ing via Beckon, Stomp).
2. Boss encounters + aggro (main bosses, not named/mini-bosses).
Mobs
Generally, the mob clearing method for a bear has always been the same. Gather up, Beckon Stomp, etc etc, you know the drill. This, IMO, has always been the best PvE strength of a bear. It can determine the speed of the run and the amount of deaths - especially in Nuri's.
When I started the Fang maps, I had the expectations of Nuri-par trash mobs ready. Eg. gravestone, pesky slows, and just good damage - a challenge for a tank. However, it seems that the trash mobs in Fang are literally that, trash. They don't do anything special and they barely hit for anything which removed the challenge and essence of having a tank in the group.
Worse, it seems that the mob's dodges have been scaled up. Bears already have the ancient problem of Hit % issues, having to be dual spec, etc etc etc, old argument. I was running with a 105 Hit % bear, which IMO, is quite high already especially for PvE. I am not saying that only 50% of the mobs are actually getting hit, I would put the number at only 90% of mobs seem to be fully controllable. To put it into context, the first three mobs in the first map, when I beckoned, only 1 of them was actually pulled closer. The other two dodged it. How much hit % do we actually need?
Add up mobs that do not bring a challenge and a use for a tank + making bears less effective in CC-ing (gather, control) and you get a relatively useless class in PvE.
Boss encounters
This goes hand-in-hand with aggro. As far as I know, which means I could be mistaken, the boss mechanics, from my experience, are:
Map 1 - Tank and spank
Map 2 - Tank and spank
Map 3 - Something with movement, shadow waves, distance.
Map 4 - Tank and spank
Map 5 - Something with the boss Beckon+Stomping of some sort.
Tank and spank means you literally just tank it, and spank it, until it dies.
However, there doesn't seem to be really any tanking left. The tanking seems to have gone to birds and mages to kite the boss. As a tanking melee class, that's a big blow against us. Taunt doesn't seem to be working as effectively as it did in previous campaigns, therefore leaving aggro out in the open for the highest DPS to take. Furthermore, if these birds/mages are the ones kite-tanking them, what exactly is the use of a bear in a boss? We have sub-par damage in comparison to birds and mages, our debuffs shine in reducing damage taken (if any are taken, they are kiting after all), and our Beckon doesn't affect the boss. The only true input I see is the dodge debuff for the boss - so that the birds/mages can hit more.
At first, I thought that making the bosses immune to Beckon was a good thing. Less scattering, less pushing out of range therefore resetting the boss, and it made two bears less detrimental to each other. But that was when we could grab aggro, so we didn't need to fling the boss around. Now that we can't grab aggro, again, what is the purpose of a bear in a boss fight?
Map 5 boss is a prime example. There's nothing to tank other than his deadly pull+damage combo - which seems to be avoidable only if you have existing distance between you and the boss. If you're at melee range and get pulled, there's simply not enough time to run and avoid his damage after the pull. Damage strong enough to nearly one-shot almost anyone. Solution? Kite-tank. What good is a bear for kite-tanking, when it's skills are melee oriented?
PvP
Since the campaign was just released, there has been no true PvP-ing yet for 65/66. The best glimpse into the 65 PvP world is through the crafted stats - something which I immediately go to once a new campaign is out.
In a nutshell, the bear will be the weakest melee class. I can definitely be mistaken, but that's my prediction.
If I remember correctly, crafted stats for a strength piece were: (please correct me, have no access to the game at the moment).
7 Dodge, 3 Crit, 7 HS, 5 MS, 11 Damage.
The stats are awesome. But as a melee bear, it's a point against us. Dodge is good, crit is good, HS is good, damage is good, but 5 MS?
It's been brought up before. If strength is the main and defining attribute of a bear, therefore making it the prime strength class, what good does 5 MS per piece do for a bear? 5 MS from the entire set with the bonus is already sufficient. If this 20+ MS is reduced to 5 MS and the remainder changed to another more useful stat, strength bears may be more potent as a melee class.
Therefore, the crafted stats are more suited to pally/warbird game play more than anything else. End story, you cannot balance bears through gear. If you buff strength gear, pallys and warbirds will benefit more. If you nerf strength gear, yes there may be less pallys/warbirds running around, but how bad will a strength bear be by then?
Does anyone remember the original Fury change to the pally/warbird fury?
PS. Nothing against paladins/warbirds here, just using you guys as a strength reference to bears.
Suggestions
The issue of skill levels is looming in again. For those that don't know, the original skill level cap per skill was only up to Level 5. I think level 6 was introduced when Balefort Sewers came out?
Anyway, with more and more skill points being introduced to the same number of skills, almost everyone will have the same skill builds and skill levels again. Furthermore, with the rate of which the new campaigns are coming, therefore more level caps and more skill points, the skills will be becoming more of an issue.
That said, I believe that to truly rebalance PvE and PvP, a review and restructure of the skill system would be effective. I think that the opportunity to rework the classes into their true roles is highest through the skills. Balancing through gear seems very broad. eg, to try and balance a bear through gear affects pallys/warbirds too, as mentioned. So a skill rebalancing would allow individual class balances.
I don't know with the rest, but a new and exciting skill tree/system would be a big bonus to attracting veteran players.
In conclusion, I'm not asking or suggesting to make the bear OP. If it does become OP, I'll be re-rolling to a bird. But at least add utility to the class. Right now, there's really nothing a bear can do that a mage/bird cannot do better. A single skill (Beckon) shouldn't be the only skill that makes that class amount to anything.
Unfortunately, the release of Fang is dead center on my semester finals. One more test to go, but I haven't started on it yet. I was and will be able to squeeze in playing time though, after all, what are those hourly breaks for ;)
Thank you.
In previous expansions, the bear was always the slight underdog in PvP. No, it wasn't completely useless or powerless, but it wasn't at par with the birds and mages either. However, bears have always had one of the best roles in PvE. They made everything in PvE easier - clearing mobs, tanking bosses, and preventing deaths.
Unfortunately, in Fang, things seem to have changed. The PvP aspect of bears are still lacking, especially if you compare them to other melee classes, but worst of all, it seems the PvE strengths have also been removed rendering the class almost useless.
I know, it's early, it's only been a few hours into the expansion, but it doesn't take hours of killing the same bosses/mobs to realize and observe what the changes have been. Others are pretty straightforward, you tank and spank the boss. Other bosses have more mechanics, which may have not been fully countered yet, but are pretty clear.
Also, there are those interested in PvE or PvP only. That said, I'll divide this into those two sections so you don't have to read the area you don't want to.
Finally, please note that I could be mistaken - in fact, I hope I am. A new update always brings the entire community together, I was extremely happy to be playing with my guild again and seeing all my friends that I haven't seen in a long time online on my friends list. This is why I wanted to make this post. If the same update that brings these people back together is the same update that also pushes them away, there is definitely something wrong.
PvE
There is small discussion on the bear's PvE shortcomings here:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?42521-Tip-For-Defeating-Aunt-Emma
(http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?42521-Tip-For-Defeating-Aunt-Emma)
I have three main points,
1. Mob clearing (CC-ing via Beckon, Stomp).
2. Boss encounters + aggro (main bosses, not named/mini-bosses).
Mobs
Generally, the mob clearing method for a bear has always been the same. Gather up, Beckon Stomp, etc etc, you know the drill. This, IMO, has always been the best PvE strength of a bear. It can determine the speed of the run and the amount of deaths - especially in Nuri's.
When I started the Fang maps, I had the expectations of Nuri-par trash mobs ready. Eg. gravestone, pesky slows, and just good damage - a challenge for a tank. However, it seems that the trash mobs in Fang are literally that, trash. They don't do anything special and they barely hit for anything which removed the challenge and essence of having a tank in the group.
Worse, it seems that the mob's dodges have been scaled up. Bears already have the ancient problem of Hit % issues, having to be dual spec, etc etc etc, old argument. I was running with a 105 Hit % bear, which IMO, is quite high already especially for PvE. I am not saying that only 50% of the mobs are actually getting hit, I would put the number at only 90% of mobs seem to be fully controllable. To put it into context, the first three mobs in the first map, when I beckoned, only 1 of them was actually pulled closer. The other two dodged it. How much hit % do we actually need?
Add up mobs that do not bring a challenge and a use for a tank + making bears less effective in CC-ing (gather, control) and you get a relatively useless class in PvE.
Boss encounters
This goes hand-in-hand with aggro. As far as I know, which means I could be mistaken, the boss mechanics, from my experience, are:
Map 1 - Tank and spank
Map 2 - Tank and spank
Map 3 - Something with movement, shadow waves, distance.
Map 4 - Tank and spank
Map 5 - Something with the boss Beckon+Stomping of some sort.
Tank and spank means you literally just tank it, and spank it, until it dies.
However, there doesn't seem to be really any tanking left. The tanking seems to have gone to birds and mages to kite the boss. As a tanking melee class, that's a big blow against us. Taunt doesn't seem to be working as effectively as it did in previous campaigns, therefore leaving aggro out in the open for the highest DPS to take. Furthermore, if these birds/mages are the ones kite-tanking them, what exactly is the use of a bear in a boss? We have sub-par damage in comparison to birds and mages, our debuffs shine in reducing damage taken (if any are taken, they are kiting after all), and our Beckon doesn't affect the boss. The only true input I see is the dodge debuff for the boss - so that the birds/mages can hit more.
At first, I thought that making the bosses immune to Beckon was a good thing. Less scattering, less pushing out of range therefore resetting the boss, and it made two bears less detrimental to each other. But that was when we could grab aggro, so we didn't need to fling the boss around. Now that we can't grab aggro, again, what is the purpose of a bear in a boss fight?
Map 5 boss is a prime example. There's nothing to tank other than his deadly pull+damage combo - which seems to be avoidable only if you have existing distance between you and the boss. If you're at melee range and get pulled, there's simply not enough time to run and avoid his damage after the pull. Damage strong enough to nearly one-shot almost anyone. Solution? Kite-tank. What good is a bear for kite-tanking, when it's skills are melee oriented?
PvP
Since the campaign was just released, there has been no true PvP-ing yet for 65/66. The best glimpse into the 65 PvP world is through the crafted stats - something which I immediately go to once a new campaign is out.
In a nutshell, the bear will be the weakest melee class. I can definitely be mistaken, but that's my prediction.
If I remember correctly, crafted stats for a strength piece were: (please correct me, have no access to the game at the moment).
7 Dodge, 3 Crit, 7 HS, 5 MS, 11 Damage.
The stats are awesome. But as a melee bear, it's a point against us. Dodge is good, crit is good, HS is good, damage is good, but 5 MS?
It's been brought up before. If strength is the main and defining attribute of a bear, therefore making it the prime strength class, what good does 5 MS per piece do for a bear? 5 MS from the entire set with the bonus is already sufficient. If this 20+ MS is reduced to 5 MS and the remainder changed to another more useful stat, strength bears may be more potent as a melee class.
Therefore, the crafted stats are more suited to pally/warbird game play more than anything else. End story, you cannot balance bears through gear. If you buff strength gear, pallys and warbirds will benefit more. If you nerf strength gear, yes there may be less pallys/warbirds running around, but how bad will a strength bear be by then?
Does anyone remember the original Fury change to the pally/warbird fury?
PS. Nothing against paladins/warbirds here, just using you guys as a strength reference to bears.
Suggestions
The issue of skill levels is looming in again. For those that don't know, the original skill level cap per skill was only up to Level 5. I think level 6 was introduced when Balefort Sewers came out?
Anyway, with more and more skill points being introduced to the same number of skills, almost everyone will have the same skill builds and skill levels again. Furthermore, with the rate of which the new campaigns are coming, therefore more level caps and more skill points, the skills will be becoming more of an issue.
That said, I believe that to truly rebalance PvE and PvP, a review and restructure of the skill system would be effective. I think that the opportunity to rework the classes into their true roles is highest through the skills. Balancing through gear seems very broad. eg, to try and balance a bear through gear affects pallys/warbirds too, as mentioned. So a skill rebalancing would allow individual class balances.
I don't know with the rest, but a new and exciting skill tree/system would be a big bonus to attracting veteran players.
In conclusion, I'm not asking or suggesting to make the bear OP. If it does become OP, I'll be re-rolling to a bird. But at least add utility to the class. Right now, there's really nothing a bear can do that a mage/bird cannot do better. A single skill (Beckon) shouldn't be the only skill that makes that class amount to anything.
Unfortunately, the release of Fang is dead center on my semester finals. One more test to go, but I haven't started on it yet. I was and will be able to squeeze in playing time though, after all, what are those hourly breaks for ;)
Thank you.