Its time we Balance | Evolution of weapons

[PsychoNuke]

The motive of this thread is to shed some light on the class imbalance on the basses of facts. There are three major things that affects the class stats: the most important one are the weapons, followed by armors and helms.

This thread is going to be about weapons. For this demonstration I have chosen Mythic rarity, the weapons used are: Aegis for Warriors, Staffs for Mage and Daggers for Rogues. Why Mythic? Well as per my research they fit perfectly between Legendary and Arcanes. The main and secondary stats are always kept same for all Mythic weapons around all classes, with DPS and Armor as variables. If you like you can perform the same tests on Legendary and Arcanes of the same level range, and you will certainly get almost same results.

My motive is to show that these variables are not balanced correctly, but understand that when I say "balance" I do not mean that they are suppose to be of equal value, what I mean is that there should be a baseline for every class and the increments should be of equal proportions.

Now that you understand the nature of this thread, lets move to the analytics.

Damage & Armor Comparison:
Level 36:
Damage: Warrior = 115, Mage = 158, Rogue = 170.
Armor: Warrior = 117, Mage = 41, Rogue 0. [Baseline]
173529
Level 46:
Damage: Warrior = 117, Mage = 200, Rogue = 215. [Differential: Warrior = 2, Mage = 42, Rogue = 45]
Armor: Warrior = 327, Mage = 48, Rogue 48. [Differential: Warrior = 210, Mage = 7, Rogue = 48]
173530
Level 51:
Damage: Warrior = 128, Mage = 257, Rogue = 299. [Differential: Warrior = 11, Mage = 57, Rogue = 84]
Armor: Warrior = 55, Mage = 55, Rogue = 184. [Differential: Warrior = -272, Mage = 7, Rogue = 136]
173531
Note: Level 57 was a major point for gears, everything got buffed almost 2x+ to match the content difficulty. And as per my research its the possible point in history where the imbalance sprouted.

Level 60:
Damage: Warrior = 251, Mage = 466, Rogue = 653. [Differential: Warrior = 123, Mage = 209, Rogue = 354][Possible New Baseline]
Armor: Warrior = 384, Mage = 0, Rogue = 302. [Differential: Warrior = 329, Mage = -55, Rogue = 118]
173532
Level 66:
Damage: Warrior = 301, Mage = 544, Rogue = 761. [Differential: Warrior = 50, Mage = 78, Rogue = 108]
Armor: Warrior = 493, Mage = 73, Rogue = 402. [Differential: Warrior = 109, Mage = 73, Rogue = 100]
173533
Level 71:
Damage: Warrior = 394, Mage = 628, Rogue = 880. [Differential: Warrior = 93, Mage = 84, Rogue = 119]
Armor: Warrior = 524, Mage = 104, Rogue = 427. [Differential: Warrior = 31, Mage = 31, Rogue = 25]
173534

Now, looking at all those numbers at once might be a little overwhelming and confusing, so let me simplify it for you and compare the damage and armor difference one by one:

[B]Damage:

173535 173536

As I mentioned before - Level 57 cap was a major turning point, you can see a good buff there, but does it continue to grow in proportion?
Here is a graph that shows the damage gap between classes if the initial baseline (Pre Level 57) was taken:

173537

The damage difference between Rogues and Mage would have been very less, a bit of tuning to parallel the damage difference between Mage and Rogue and a heavy buff for warriors to narrow down the gap a bit would have done the trick.

Lets see at the Post Level 57 baseline, the present damage gap and how it might look for next 3 level cap:

173538

This seems wide, and now the damage gap is high between all classes. If you see the trend you will notice that the proportions are not parallel, its increasing exponentially.

Armor:

173539 173540

Oh boy! now you know why Mages are blue :p.
I am not even going to use the Pre Level 57 data on this, I mean for obvious reasons.

173541

Post Level 57 baseline does show some promising parallels between Rogues and Warriors, but what happened to Mages?
Also, I am not sure why they started Mages with 0, when they were at 55 on the previous bracket. I do take the shield skill (55% damage reduction for 15sec with a CD of 27sec) into consideration; and I am not asking the armor to be way up there, but I think armor for Mage should get similar justice that Warriors got for damage post level 57 considering they are Tanks.

In conclusion I personally think that its time we have a new baseline, new proportions that will reduce the gap between classes and ensure a parallel growth in future.
I feel the damage gap between Rogue and Mage should go down to 100, Mage and Warrior to 200, which makes Warrior and Rogue 300.
Similarly, the armor gap between Warrior and Rogue to be 100, Rogue and Mage to be 250, which makes Warrior and Mage to be 350.
But then that's just my point of view, what do you guys think?

[Spheresome]

Amazing work, with facts and statistics to back it up. +1 firm, solid argument.

[PostNoob]

Procs

/need11

[ancestor]

Procs

/need11

Plus Dot and group damage are factors. To say mages are at the bottom is a joke. Rogue is most deffently underpowered as aoe damage is very light. Single target is the only damage output and rogue skills have little survivable besides shield and pierce. So armor is a major necessity especially if party is in a mob setting. I get destroyed in mous while mage procs mobs to oblivian. Come on rogue procs are pretty much a joke. Look even at lvl 46 drag dagers. The proc on that is like 1/50 hits while mages are procing away. Rogues kill bosses and single target mobs, mages kill everything. Opppp

[Spheresome]

Procs

/need11


Plus Dot and group damage are factors. To say mages are at the bottom is a joke. Rogue is most deffently underpowered as aoe damage is very light. Single target is the only damage output and rogue skills have little survivable besides shield and pierce. So armor is a major necessity especially if party is in a mob setting. I get destroyed in mous while mage procs mobs to oblivian. Come on rogue procs are pretty much a joke. Look even at lvl 46 drag dagers. The proc on that is like 1/50 hits while mages are procing away. Rogues kill bosses and single target mobs, mages kill everything. Opppp

Mage procs were too good before the nerfs, now they are useless

There is no such thing as good mage procs anymore. And plus, if mages have the lowest base damage in the first place, whats wrong with giving them procs to compensate for that?

[PostNoob]

Mage procs were too good before the nerfs, now they are useless

There is no such thing as good mage procs anymore. And plus, if mages have the lowest base damage in the first place, whats wrong with giving them procs to compensate for that?

Im not against balance, but to throw a bunch of "on paper stats" out like this doesnt fully give you the grasp of mages damage output. To sit here and not show that side of things and just look at the basic stat of damg isnt fair.

Mauso is one of the most profitable places in Arlor. Mages Procs there are not good? And for how long has that been? Just because i gave a thanks on this thread, and threw out the word proc, doesn't mean im saying overall mages are the best.

I commend the op for going through the trouble of putting this together, but its bias imo.

Do others think its fair to put together data like this without taking into consideration Procs and such? I believe this was put together focusing on just singular aspects. If you buff mages too much, it will just give the problems that exist now, class stacking. If you stack AoE dps(along with a few procs that can be had by them) it would be worse than todays Rogue stacking.

Too bad there wasnt two classes of damage, magic and physical, armor as well.

Imo, the main goal of this thread is to buff mages, while not considering all aspects of gameplay. That is why i wouldn't think this is vaulable information. Its nice to see numbers on a screen, but its only half of the equation.

[PsychoNuke]

Procs

/need11

Procs are similar to skills, but they are variables and are based on RNG. If you check Procs for the weapons included in that test you will notice that even Rogues and Warriors had over powered procs in past, it is one of the reason I chose Mythics. But in the end the gap you see at level 71 are with all weapons with same procs.
So, when we dicusss the stats we exclude those variables, because the amount of damage and armor procs bring to the table should be decided on the bases of the constants and not the other way round.

+ @Ancestor: Hope the above explains the intentions of the OP. Also, weapons are only the starting point, I will be covering all other aspects in future if time allows me.

Also, the OP does not suggest that Mage are at the bottom. I am not sure how you got that idea; It only points that the damage and armor is not balanced between classes, I am not sure if you both have read the whole thing properly before commenting.

As mentioned in the OP, you can get similar trend and curves with Legendary weapons too, they have no Procs.

[Alwarez]

Too bad you didn't do a flowchart with proc damage. That blue mage line with ds proc would go through the roof

[mod]

Procs and splash damage needs to be taken account of, these stats make mages look like pure trash when they just aren't

[PsychoNuke]

Too bad you didn't do a flowchart with proc damage. That blue mage line with ds proc would go through the roof

I don't mind including it if you can provide me with that data, and it will be nice if you can also provide me with the data for proc damage for Immo Bow. They both had same proc damage I wonder how it will look on paper. And I see where you are coming from; so, + Post #7.

[PsychoNuke]

Procs and splash damage needs to be taken account of, these stats make mages look like pure trash when they just aren't

No, because its the same curve for Legendary, there are no procs there. and Post#7 for you too :)

[PostNoob]

Procs are similar to skills, but they are variables and are based on RNG. If you check Procs for the weapons included in that test you will notice that even Rogues and Warriors had over powered procs in past, it is one of the reason I chose Mythics. But in the end the gap you see at level 71 are with all weapons with same procs.
So, when we dicusss the stats we exclude those variables, because the amount of damage and armor procs bring to the table should be decided on the bases of the constants and not the other way round. Hope the OP makes sense to you now.

+ Ancestor: Hope the above explains the intentions of the OP. Also the OP does not suggest that Mage are at the bottom. I am not sure how you got that idea; It only points that the damage and armor is not balanced between classes, I am not sure if you read the whole thing properly before commenting. Also, weapons are only the starting point, I will be covering all other aspects in future if time allows me.

As mentioned in the OP, you can get similar trend and curves with Legendary weapons too, they have no procs.

I understood it. Your focused on paper stats, which doesn't reflect overall damage a class can do. For this data you just throw out skills effect on gameplay? I mean, thats a pretty big part of the game your just not assessing. Im not sure how you can say that mages need a damage buff(wars too but thats a diff story) while not even taking into account the sheer AoE then can put out. If you are going by what your eyes see, then i can see why people think they need a buff, but its not correct to just completely disregard one of the cornerstones of this game, skills.

You talk about constants, and how procs and skills cannot be addressed. That just does not make sense, its completely backwards to me. How can you consider making a weapon that is suppose to be balanced without taking into account skills lol?

[PsychoNuke]

I understood it. Your focused on paper stats, which doesn't reflect overall damage a class can do. For this data you just throw out skills effect on gameplay? I mean, thats a pretty big part of the game your just not assessing. Im not sure how you can say that mages need a damage buff(wars too but thats a diff story) while not even taking into account the sheer AoE then can put out. If you are going by what your eyes see, then i can see why people think they need a buff, but its not correct to just completely disregard one of the cornerstones of this game, skills.

You talk about constants, and how procs and skills cannot be addressed. That just does not make sense, its completely backwards to me. How can you consider making a weapon that is suppose to be balanced without taking into account skills lol?

Yes, I don't think you understood what I said, I said variables such as skills, are decided on constants, not the other way round. Your skill damage changes based on the damage stat, not the other way round. You dont even have to take Procs into account for now because you get the same curve for Legendary weapons too. Hope it makes sense now.

Off topic:
The AOE damage of one class is countered with the Single target damage of another depending on the class and role. Skills are different subject matter, they have different baselines which includes not only damage but cool downs too. I would be glad to have a open discussion on skills but on a different thread.

[Earlingstad]

Although spiced with a detailed good-looking and grammatically error-free thread, which almost looks convincing, what the OP is asking for is unnecessary at the moment (my opinion, do not have to agree).

Changes need to be made when a particular class is lagging behind and hence excluded from runs, owing to their class-flaws. It is not like mages are excluded from runs due to any imbalance, there is no imbalance. I see frequent calls for mages, as well as warriors and rogues. All the 3 classes are doing ok according to their roles.

[PsychoNuke]

Changes need to be made when a particular class is lagging behind and hence excluded from runs, owing to their class-flaws. It is not like mages are excluded from runs due to any imbalance, there is no imbalance. I see frequent calls for mages, as well as warriors and rogues. All the 3 classes are doing ok according to their roles.

I disagree on two levels.
1) Class balance is not determined on the basses of if a specific class is excluded from runs. (The issue with exclusion of mage and warrior from being called for end game raids was not resolved with class balance, it does not exist anymore because they removed gold from there)
2) Class balance affects PVP and damage based runs (for example Raid LB) - players are not speaking about it anymore because there are no actions taken for all the outstanding discussions that are already available on the forum.

But you are entitled to your opinion as I am :)

[Crocodile]

People get offended by how good he tabulated the data and they started to make another fuss to prove they are better.
bye.

[PostNoob]

You cant speak on the mage class without taking the classes skills into consideration, the skills are what make a mage.

All i see is a try to marginalize the power of their skills because you made a progression chart. This chart only addresses one classes strength, while subsequent posts are just completely avoiding, distracting away, and deflecting the other aspects that indirectly effect the outcome of said chart.

Skills are what make characters who they are. Skills make the weapons. Everything evolved around skills. Yet it cannot be in the discussion. Weird how thats where mages power comes from. Well, Skills and Procs, both of which are being marginalized or completely lock out of the discussion.

Once again, im all for balanced game play, but buffing mages damage curve is defidently not how you want to approach it. Changes to Rogues that would be considered a "nerf" are a much more suitable fix(which will end up getting the same types of posts as you'd expect).

My fellow rogues may not agree but these changes are better imo:

Global cap on Crit/Dodge

Cap on Critical Damage%

Small increase in Aimed shots cooldown.

Small decrease on effectiveness of armor % for Rogues(diminish the returns)

Slight reduction on enemy armor and all character classes damage.

These changes would be hated by most all rogues but would be alot more healthy for the game.

[Spheresome]

You cant speak on the mage class without taking the classes skills into consideration, the skills are what make a mage.

All i see is a try to marginalize the power of their skills because you made a progression chart. This chart only addresses one classes strength, while subsequent posts are just completely avoiding, distracting away, and deflecting the other aspects that indirectly effect the outcome of said chart.

Skills are what make characters who they are. Skills make the weapons. Everything evolved around skills. Yet it cannot be in the discussion. Weird how thats where mages power comes from. Well, Skills and Procs, both of which are being marginalized or completely lock out of the discussion.

Once again, im all for balanced game play, but buffing mages damage curve is defidently not how you want to approach it. Changes to Rogues that would be considered a "nerf" are a much more suitable fix(which will end up getting the same types of posts as you'd expect).

My fellow rogues may not agree but these changes are better imo:

Global cap on Crit/Dodge

Cap on Critical Damage%

Small increase in Aimed shots cooldown.

Small decrease on effectiveness of armor % for Rogues(diminish the returns)

Slight reduction on enemy armor and all character classes damage.

These changes would be hated by most all rogues but would be alot more healthy for the game.

You put this very nicely, I think there should be caps on %armor buffs.

Buffing the classes is not the way to go, but nerfing and putting caps is better

[Azerothraven]

I like how the game is rn tbh. Please dont change anything thanks

[slaaayerrr]

My fellow rogues may not agree but these changes are better imo:

Global cap on Crit/Dodge

Cap on Critical Damage%

Small increase in Aimed shots cooldown.

Small decrease on effectiveness of armor % for Rogues(diminish the returns)

Slight reduction on enemy armor and all character classes damage.


then:
reduce all slows, stuns, roots from mage's skills (mage should deal pure damage in ur opinion)
neft all procs of mage's weapons, especially from lvl46-60 (yes yes dragon staff still bugged and balanced staff also)
reduce number of targets by mage's staffs, and make it melee weapon
remove armor upgrade from gale (or give mage +100%dodge instead of that 50% armor)
remove 2sec invulnerability from mage's shield, also decrease shield to 20-30% dmg reduce instead of 55%, and decrease amount of damage absorbed

so we will have 2 same dps classes (u wanted damage by mage, if u dont see other mage's advantages)
and as u can see, warriors never complain about those things, because they know their work in party and doing it, if u have support/controlling class, why u complaining that dps class deals more dmg than u? lol

what u still doing on ur mage if its so weak and why dont go rogue if it is so OP in ur opinion?

[swoutttt]

Im fine the way it is right now.. if you think one specific class is better, then play it..

[arcanefid]

I don't remember the game being this nice to all classes in a long time tbh, I haven't been very active in running all maps, but I don't see people changing their class as often as before. Overall, I think it's pretty good as it is.

We can look at stats like armor and damage all day, but in the end it's the procs and skills what really make the difference. There are still warriors who use Glintstone Aegis and Mages that use Flame Staff, they don't care about their stats.

As for classes being excluded from runs, I think it's more because of how the maps are designed. I wouldn't mind putting caps on Armor, Dodge, and Crit % tho.

[PostNoob]

then:
reduce all slows, stuns, roots from mage's skills (mage should deal pure damage in ur opinion)
neft all procs of mage's weapons, especially from lvl46-60 (yes yes dragon staff still bugged and balanced staff also)
reduce number of targets by mage's staffs, and make it melee weapon
remove armor upgrade from gale (or give mage +100%dodge instead of that 50% armor)
remove 2sec invulnerability from mage's shield, also decrease shield to 20-30% dmg reduce instead of 55%, and decrease amount of damage absorbed

so we will have 2 same dps classes (u wanted damage by mage, if u dont see other mage's advantages)

Thank you! This is almost exactly the type of response i was hoping for. I was at a dead end with debate about the OP because it is very bias(ill say it again, you cannot judge damage by paper stats).

I was hoping the last response i got would have shown more on how this is just a "buff mages" thread, and how one sided the info given is.

Believe me, im no fool. I understand how strong CC/AoE is, and how underrated it becomes when you take it for granted. If you take the time to read this whole thread, you'll see what i did. Call it trickery or what you wish, it worked to an extent.

Edit: i see your taking me serious on that quote, which it wasnt. If you actually read my posts, you'll see where my allegiance is. I am a Rogue player, not mage.

[Perceval]

Sure why not send us back to that apocalypse cap where mages totally fooled STS into believing their broken class was balanced.

Apart from putting a class specific cap on armor awakenings, the game is fine as it is.

Of course a mage would have low damage when their health is 100,000.

Maybe try your class specific stat rather than gold loot % and STR sometime.

[slaaayerrr]

Edit: i see your taking me serious on that quote, which it wasnt.

my comment wasnt adressed exactly to u, it was for all whinning selfish mages who think that rogues so op but they still stay on their cheap mages with all mage's advantages and whinning why dps class dealing more damage than support (btw rogue using 3-4 damaging skills when i often see mages with 1-2 skills to deal damage)

and if mages still see any problems about classes balance:
pvp: u was lucky to kill rogues in some pvp brackets, i dont remember any mmorpg where support or aoe mage killing dps class
also i didnt see many good geared mages lvl66-71 (only 3 tbh, for example - check how many lvl60 artifacts u see on mages and on rogues per day), so u think u can come pvp on ur cheap mage and kill everyone? thats funny
even if buff mages for pvp and they will get more damage, what will be role of rogue then as dps class? rogue doesnt have mana, doesnt have stuns or skills to control enemies, it will be food
https://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?428515-Let-s-get-71-pvp-going!!!!!-Chexk-out-my-vs-against-Skyxe-Gear-up-everyone!!! here was nice example about pvp mage vs pve rogue with good stats, i've tried vs that mage also (we both had good gears), it was very hard for me, and ended as tie. (btw it was 1v1 in both sutiations, rogue as dps for 1 target vs mage which supposed to deal aoe damage) so tell me why mages still need buffs in pvp or rogues need nerf? maybe rogues need buffs? lol
pve: same, u was lucky with some procs of staffs (and it was ok that party without dps class more effective than original party), but that was not normal (u could notice rogues in maus at lvl61/66 expansions)
problem is not about damage which different classes dealing, problem is how mage and warrior needed in some endgame locations (it was discussed already many times, but all new maps still after damage, dont need to be skilled or have every class in ur party, just need to be rich to buy good gears and spam skills without any thinking and its sadly)
so why mages whinning about rogues, if they can adress their cryings to sts and ask them to make maps where every class needed (or just go play rogue if u think that its so op)

[Instanthumor]

Cute graphs, but frankly, they are telling us nothing useful.


Im not against balance, but to throw a bunch of "on paper stats" out like this doesnt fully give you the grasp of mages damage output. To sit here and not show that side of things and just look at the basic stat of damg isnt fair.



I understood it. Your focused on paper stats, which doesn't reflect overall damage a class can do. For this data you just throw out skills effect on gameplay? I mean, thats a pretty big part of the game your just not assessing. Im not sure how you can say that mages need a damage buff(wars too but thats a diff story) while not even taking into account the sheer AoE then can put out. If you are going by what your eyes see, then i can see why people think they need a buff, but its not correct to just completely disregard one of the cornerstones of this game, skills.


^ This, can be said a thousand times. In my viewpoint, I think you, the OP, is the one failing to see what several people are trying to tell you throughout this thread. As a mage myself who has been doing nothing but farming the new maps for approximately 60k xp a day this past week, I can unquestionable say that mages are in an exceptional state in the pve aspect of this game.

The damage statistic you are referring to in your graphs is nothing but a number. Each skill's damage value scales with this given number. What I am trying to say is that this number is quite irrelevant alone when considering the damage output of a specific class. For example, a class can have 100 damage and have a skill that does 1000 damage because it scales by 10. On the other hand, another class can have exactly the same stat of 100 damage but have a skill that does only 200 damage because it scales by 2. There is no meaning to comparing the damage statistic of a class by itself.

Another thing I would like to mention is the significance between aoe vs single target attacks which I do not think you are weighing accurately.



The AOE damage of one class is countered with the Single target damage of another depending on the class and role.

I believe this is an absolutely invalid statement. If you were asked which is faster, a plane or a car, what you declared above is pretty much the same as saying traveling by air "counters" traveling by land, so they are equal. Does this make sense? Sorry, but it's going to be a hard negative for me. Let's take the new swamp map for example. If you sent in the three classes with the same gear and you were able to see how much damage each class did at the end of the run, I can guarantee you that mages will beat out the other two classes in this category. The reason why a mage's damage number is lower is because they can hit ten people with one skill thus multiplying their damage by the number of targets hit, while a rogue would generally only hit one target with one skill.


Class balance affects PVP and damage based runs (for example Raid LB) - players are not speaking about it anymore because there are no actions taken for all the outstanding discussions that are already available on the forum.

Last but not least, class balance in pvp and class balance in pve are in two completely different universes. There are contrasting circumstances in play such as having other opponents with different statistical values. Please do not coin them together as I could literally write a book about pvp class balance even if I have not pvp'd in a year, whereas I have nothing else to say on this matter about class balance in pve because I see no real immediate issues regarding this matter.

[slaaayerrr]

I wouldn't mind putting caps on Armor, Dodge, and Crit % tho.
about dodge idk how it works, looking as useless stat, having 100% dodge rogues easily die without pots for example at 1st pull of mobs in maus (mobs dont have skills, only regular attacks).
ofc u wouldnt mind put cap on crit because u playing warrior lol, and high crit will be useless for u even if u reach that.
crit and damage is how rogue becomes dps class, if u want put cap on rogue's crit then why dont put cap on:
- warrior hp (warriors never die now in pve, is it really interesting? in pvp clashes also rarely die)
- warrior damage (warrior for taking agro, pulling and tanking, but not for dealing dmg, aoe dmg is for mages)
- gold loot? 150% gold loot for example as cap? warrior and mages dont need to increase their stats for running pve good, warriors can tanking any map without good awakes/jewels, mages can be good without best stats also (some mages still with full str because of OP procs), i mean: warriors and mages dont loose their effectiveness if they have awakes as full gold loot, but rogues suck because need to choose between stats (and u are good rogue with high dmg, and making ur job well) or gold loot (low dmg, dont have good procs to kill, dont have skills for survive, dodge doesnt work correct, as result - useless rogue)

[arcanefid]

about dodge idk how it works, looking as useless stat, having 100% dodge rogues easily die without pots for example at 1st pull of mobs in maus (mobs dont have skills, only regular attacks).
ofc u wouldnt mind put cap on crit because u playing warrior lol, and high crit will be useless for u even if u reach that.
crit and damage is how rogue becomes dps class, if u want put cap on rogue's crit then why dont put cap on:
- warrior hp (warriors never die now in pve, is it really interesting? in pvp clashes also rarely die)
- warrior damage (warrior for taking agro, pulling and tanking, but not for dealing dmg, aoe dmg is for mages)
- gold loot? 150% gold loot for example as cap? warrior and mages dont need to increase their stats for running pve good, warriors can tanking any map without good awakes/jewels, mages can be good without best stats also (some mages still with full str because of OP procs), i mean: warriors and mages dont loose their effectiveness if they have awakes as full gold loot, but rogues suck because need to choose between stats (and u are good rogue with high dmg, and making ur job well) or gold loot (low dmg, dont have good procs to kill, dont have skills for survive, dodge doesnt work correct, as result - useless rogue)

I would be fine with all that too. In fact, I have mentioned many times that I would get rid of awakenings completely, since they are ruining many things.

As for dodge, it works only for auto attacks, skills have 100% hit chance I think. That's how it seems to work.

PS: I never mentioned any specific number about them, it could be capped to 80% crit which is still good. ;3

[slaaayerrr]

As for dodge, it works only for auto attacks, skills have 100% hit chance I think. That's how it seems to work.


have u read what i've told?
example: i'm rogue with 100% dodge, first mobs in maus never have any skills, they have ONLY attacks, but if i go there without potions with my 100% dodge i cant survive long time, that dodge broken, i would say that it gives 50% real chance to dodge if i have 100% dodge in my stats (or maybe its already have cap? as 70-80% dodge? but hidden from players)
some melee pets cant be dodged, when those pets attack me, sometimes it shows as "miss", but never dodge (almost all their attacks dealing damage, very rare chance to avoid their autoattacks)

[arcanefid]

have u read what i've told?
example: i'm rogue with 100% dodge, first mobs in maus never have any skills, they have ONLY attacks, but if i go there without potions with my 100% dodge i cant survive long time, that dodge broken, i would say that it gives 50% real chance to dodge if i have 100% dodge in my stats (or maybe its already have cap? as 70-80% dodge? but hidden from players)
some melee pets cant be dodged, when those pets attack me, sometimes it shows as "miss", but never dodge (almost all their attacks dealing damage, very rare chance to avoid their autoattacks)

Maybe the enemies that don't have any skill count their regular attack as a skill in order not to become completely useless. Don't worry, I read it.

[PsychoNuke]

^ This, can be said a thousand times. In my viewpoint, I think you, the OP, is the one failing to see what several people are trying to tell you throughout this thread. As a mage myself who has been doing nothing but farming the new maps for approximately 60k xp a day this past week, I can unquestionable say that mages are in an exceptional state in the pve aspect of this game.

As you see many players on this forum and ingame disagree. Please look at the after expansion threads (around 4 months worth) to gain knowledge on the current state of the classes. Farming xp, or being able to solo a map has nothing to do with class balance. But you are entitled to your opinion.



The damage statistic you are referring to in your graphs is nothing but a number. Each skill's damage value scales with this given number. What I am trying to say is that this number is quite irrelevant alone when considering the damage output of a specific class. For example, a class can have 100 damage and have a skill that does 1000 damage because it scales by 10. On the other hand, another class can have exactly the same stat of 100 damage but have a skill that does only 200 damage because it scales by 2. There is no meaning to comparing the damage statistic of a class by itself.


Those numbers are damage and armor stats. Talking about damage: even in your example and in fact - skill damage is dependent on the damage stat, every time the damage from a weapon is reduced the skill damage reduces, every time the damage of a weapon is raised the skill damage raises.

The intent of the OP is very simple: it asks why isn't the proportion maintained every-time the damage for a class is buffed? And it shows that the damage and armor difference between classes is increasing to grow exponentially.

I am not sure why are people trying to read between the lines and if they are reading the OP at all.

Off Topic:


Another thing I would like to mention is the significance between aoe vs single target attacks which I do not think you are weighing accurately.
I believe this is an absolutely invalid statement. If you were asked which is faster, a plane or a car, what you declared above is pretty much the same as saying traveling by air "counters" traveling by land, so they are equal. Does this make sense? Sorry, but it's going to be a hard negative for me.

No It doesn't make sense, that has no significance to skill. It would have made sense if the discussion was about movement speed, but we are not discussion speed/haste of a class.



Let's take the new swamp map for example. If you sent in the three classes with the same gear and you were able to see how much damage each class did at the end of the run, I can guarantee you that mages will beat out the other two classes in this category. The reason why a mage's damage number is lower is because they can hit ten people with one skill thus multiplying their damage by the number of targets hit, while a rogue would generally only hit one target with one skill.


Let me get this right, you are determining the class balance on the bases of completion time of a map?
That is a wrong category to begin with, tanks will fail in every map, mage will excel in maps with lots of mobs and rogue will excel in boss only encounters.

Every class has AOE and Single target damage skills, the damage of every skill has a baseline and increase/reduction of skill damage is calculated on stat damage of the class, number of enemies affected by the skill and the skill cool down are factor that should be taken into consideration when talking about it.

You should compare the skill damage for all skills for all classes on almost same damage stat, and you will understand my point. Trust me I have done my homework, if you like to have a discussion on skill damage differences for each skill and class then we should open a new thread for open discussion - I actually recommend this to @Thread. It will make my life easy.



Last but not least, class balance in pvp and class balance in pve are in two completely different universes.

True, and OP does not suggest any where that the balance should be same/different for PvE and/or PvP. Its upto devs to decide how the changes (if any) to be implemented and if it should be implemented only for pvp/pve or different changes for PvP and PvE.


There are contrasting circumstances in play such as having other opponents with different statistical values. Please do not coin them together as I could literally write a book about pvp class balance even if I have not pvp'd in a year, whereas I have nothing else to say on this matter about class balance in pve because I see no real immediate issues regarding this matter.

Different statistical values over basic stats are variables (such as pets and awakes) and they are not included on this discussion.
You should write a thread on PvP class balance, if not a book. It would be nice to see facts on those sides. oh! and if you do please do not include the variables :)

[arcanefid]

The intent of the OP is very simple: it asks why isn't the proportion maintained every-time the damage for a class is buffed? And it shows that the damage and armor difference between classes is increasing to grow exponentially.

I am not sure why are people trying to read between the lines and if they are reading the OP at all.

The way I see it, it is wrong because you are comparing items that have procs. An item with a better proc is OK to have worse stats than one with a bad proc. That IS balance. It's the name of the thread. Edit: You can't really say Flame Hammer is better than Flame Staff, even if the hammer has 5X more damage.

Basically, to have more accurate results for those graphs and to make a better comparison between weapons, items, and classes in general, you have to include data for each tier of the items, or at least from Legendary to Arcane, but you must also consider the procs that each weapon has, because if you just ignore the most important part of the thing you're investigating, then everything you come up with is pointless.

[PsychoNuke]

Sure why not send us back to that apocalypse cap where mages totally fooled STS into believing their broken class was balanced.

I can say the same, that Rogues are fooling STS now saying everything is fine :). Where in fact it is not.
But then those are personal opinions.


Apart from putting a class specific cap on armor awakenings, the game is fine as it is.

Of course a mage would have low damage when their health is 100,000.

Maybe try your class specific stat rather than gold loot % and STR sometime.

Awakes, pets etc are variables that are not accounted for class balance. And if you read the OP (I doubt), you would know that the discussion is limited to damage/armor gap between weapons.

[slaaayerrr]

Awakes, pets etc are variables that are not accounted for class balance.

why not accounted for class balance?

imagine if remove all pets with shields from pvp, or remove all awakes, balance will be changed much

[PsychoNuke]

The way I see it, it is wrong because you are comparing items that have procs. An item with a better proc is OK to have worse stats than one with a bad proc. That IS balance. It's the name of the thread. Edit: You can't really say Flame Hammer is better than Flame Staff, even if the hammer has 5X more damage.

Basically, to have more accurate results for those graphs and to make a better comparison between weapons, items, and classes in general, you have to include data for each tier of the items, or at least from Legendary to Arcane, but you must also consider the procs that each weapon has, because if you just ignore the most important part of the thing you're investigating, then everything you come up with is pointless.


You can get the same curve and trends for legendary weapons as well, they have no procs. I would really appreciate if players have that concern then they should have a look at the stats of legendary weapons, both dps and armor. I think Warfare type Legendary will give info on both DPS and Armor and they are available level 41+ on all level caps.
Trust me I wanted to do it for Legendary, Mythics and Arcanes and I did spend quite a long time looking for all the weapons for all caps but I failed. When I compared the available material for each rarity I realized that Mystics are like 5% above Legendary and Arcanes are around 10% above Mythics, so graphs almost showed same curves. So I decided to do it on Mythics because they were in middle and I had screenshots of most Mythics.

This is from the time I was looking into Legendary, unfortunately I only have it for armor at present, Legendary (Warfare type)

Level Mage Rogue Warrior

Level 41 42 42 224
Level 51 51 174 246
Level 61 61 354 434
Level 71 70 411 504

173571

I will try to get one for damage as well, till I can, I would appreciate if players check it themselves. Ty.

[arcanefid]

You can get the same curve and trends for legendary weapons as well, they have no procs. I would really appreciate if players have that concern then they should have a look at the stats of legendary weapons, both dps and armor. I think Warfare type Legendary will give info on both DPS and Armor and they are available level 41+ on all level caps.
Trust me I wanted to do it for Legendary, Mythics and Arcanes and I did spend quite a long time looking for all the weapons for all caps but I failed. When I compared the available material for each rarity I realized that Mystics are like 5% above Legendary and Arcanes are around 10% above Mythics, so graphs almost showed same curves. So I decided to do it on Mythics because they were in middle and I had screenshots of most Mythics.

This is from the time I was looking into Legendary, unfortunately I only have it for armor at present, Legendary (Warfare type)

Level Mage Rogue Warrior

Level 41 42 42 224
Level 51 51 174 246
Level 61 61 354 434
Level 71 70 411 504

173571

I will try to get one for damage as well, till I can, I would appreciate if players check it themselves. Ty.

That is better, but still, I know many Legendary weapons which have procs. I can start counting the warrior ones: Dark Watch Sword, Magmatic Claymore, Galen's Maul, Dusk Sword, Planar Club, etc. I think it's only the more recent legendary weapons which have no procs, but then again, now the new Mythics are just a kind of replacement for what would be Legendary in the older times.

Anyway, I think it would be impossible to really find out in detail what, how, when, why, etc. It takes a lot of time and a lot of money. And the amount of things you have to test to come up with accurate results is just too big. We know though that classes weren't balanced in previous caps, but now they are just fine, or at least much better than what it used to be. As a matter of fact, around the time when the OP shows that Mages were at their absolute worst state, I think it was when everyone was becoming a mage because of Flame Staff? Am I wrong?

[PsychoNuke]

That is better, but still, I know many Legendary weapons which have procs. I can start counting the warrior ones: Dark Watch Sword, Magmatic Claymore, Galen's Maul, Dusk Sword, Planar Club, etc. I think it's only the more recent legendary weapons which have no procs, but then again, now the new Mythics are just a kind of replacement for what would be Legendary in the older times.

Feel free to pick any legendary weapon with or without procs., you will get same results. None of the weapons have procs in the graph I shown in last post. Like level 61 dusk had procs but light didn't, so I used light.


Anyway, I think it would be impossible to really find out in detail what, how, when, why, etc. It takes a lot of time and a lot of money. And the amount of things you have to test to come up with accurate results is just too big. We know though that classes weren't balanced in previous caps, but now they are just fine, or at least much better than what it used to be. As a matter of fact, around the time when the OP shows that Mages were at their absolute worst state, I think it was when everyone was becoming a mage because of Flame Staff? Am I wrong?

Flame staff came before the Level 57 Cap but was used till level 66. I cannot blame players to keep using it because then we have warriors with glint that came before that. Sure those weapon should have been nerfed but with all sincerity I do not think these things were taken into consideration for the current baselines we have, because they are same with or without procs.

Anyway, we are not here to play blame games or discuss what happened in past, the idea is to have a discussion to build a more balanced future. Weapons are only the start, it goes to main gear, skills and etc.. but one thing at a time, people are just running all over the place off topic :)

[arcanefid]

Feel free to pick any legendary weapon with or without procs., you will get same results. None of the weapons have procs in the graph I shown in last post. Like level 61 dusk had procs but light didn't, so I used light.


True, and we are not here to play blame games or discuss what happened in past, the idea is to have a discussion to build a more balanced future. And weapons are only the start, it goes to main gear, skills and etc.. but one thing at a time, people are just running all over the place off topic :)

Well that explains a lot actually. It makes sense that the lower tier gears for Mages to have worse stats than those of Rogues and Warriors, simply because of the skills that the classes have.

If we just use gear without procs, Mages would be the best class hands down because of their skills. They have the ability to use Shield, recover Health and Mana, attack multiple enemies at once, attack a single enemy for heavy damage, slow enemies, and other stuff I am probably missing. So this explains that the gear without procs are fine to have worse stats to maintain class balance. I'm not sure if you play the Warrior class, but if you do, playing it feels extremely empty and hard until you get weapons with procs, even if the item stats are above average.

Good procs for Mages like Flame Staff, Immo Staff, or DS, made them the best class for PvE without any contest. This was easily noticeable during the Mausoleum and Underhul times, pretty much around the times when Mages had the worst stats. So in the end we can see that when Mages had the good procs, their garbage stats didn't matter at all.

[slaaayerrr]

and we are not here to play blame games or discuss what happened in past, the idea is to have a discussion to build a more balanced future
lol u are here because of ur selfishness about ur class, dont need to hide it behind ur "clever" graphics and ur seriously talking about balance.



Awakes, pets etc are variables that are not accounted for class balance.
if u are not count pets, awakes and other things - i'll make very simple example about how u want to prove that mage need buff and i'll try to be serious like u:

Lets exclude everything and look only at range of attacks (same as u excluded everything and made graphics about dmg armor) and this DISBALANCE:
173572
mages have so OP range, lets nerf all mages, they really op already for 3-4 years of AL, also give warriors weapon with ranged attack

[PostNoob]

Dude, you do not want to speak of Procs..dont want to hear it about skill AoE damage, awakens, pets.

You only want to talk about how there is a larger damage gap moving forward on mage weapons. Now if you actually did care about balance, dont you think it would be smart to take every single aspect that could have influence on why there is this gap, and consider it? Your not even considering the very things that make weapons. "Its a variable, it doesnt apply"...yes it does! If has a possibility to influence the overall preformance of a weapon, you have to account for that!

You cant simply disregard key aspects of the game soley because it suits your cause to have mages buffed.thats what your doing, its plain as day.

I just dont see how you create these graphs, take as much time as you did(looks like you put some work into it at least) and not see why it is the way it is. It probably took me literally a minute to understand this, its basic stuff man.

[Thewolfbull]

I disagree on two levels.
1) Class balance is not determined on the basses of if a specific class is excluded from runs. (The issue with exclusion of mage and warrior from being called for end game raids was not resolved with class balance, it does not exist anymore because they removed gold from there)
2) Class balance affects PVP and damage based runs (for example Raid LB) - players are not speaking about it anymore because there are no actions taken for all the outstanding discussions that are already available on the forum.

But you are entitled to your opinion as I am :)

Class balance isn't the problem in PvE it's the maps that are the problem. Raids are endgame maps right now and tanks are useless there. With mages close behind, but in mauso 5-6 all 3 classes are needed so that proves it's not a class balance problem it's to easy/only single target maps with easily avoidable red zones (raids) that's the problem.

They almost got raid right with infested swamp raid tanks needed to taunt to stop the one shots on rogues/mages, mages needed op staff procs and rogue was needed at the end to finish off the boss before everyone died. Until people realized you can just use 2 glowstick AAs to stop dying so that leaves tank useless and then mage procs were nerfed which made them useless too so now 4 rogue parties are the best way to run every raid ingame. And the only other map at 71 is deep marsh which only opens once per week oh and i can solo it on my rogue with legendary gear because it's to easy.

PvP is another problem altogether tanks need a way to get kills against rogues. Mages need a way to kill tanks and rogues need to be less op against all 3 classes. Also i tried PvP with my rogue with legendary weapon and free mire gear and got 16 kills the first match.. While i struggle to get 10 kills in 2 hours on my tank that is pretty much max geared.

[slaaayerrr]

PvP is another problem altogether tanks need a way to get kills against rogues. Mages need a way to kill tanks and rogues need to be less op against all 3 classes. Also i tried PvP with my rogue with legendary weapon and free mire gear and got 16 kills the first match.. While i struggle to get 10 kills in 2 hours on my tank that is pretty much max geared.

YOUR problem that u cant complete ur pvp aps same fast as rogues, pvp doesnt have any disbalance, its only about that rogues getting all kills and all deaths
so its problem about that warriors and mages dont getting rewards for their efforts
and easiest way to solve that will be add assists to pvp, and make those assists counts for pvp aps also (i mean pvp aps should look like 10k kills/assists, but not only kills)

[Screenshotz]

YOUR problem that u cant complete ur pvp aps same fast as rogues, pvp doesnt have any disbalance, its only about that rogues getting all kills and all deaths
so its problem about that warriors and mages dont getting rewards for their efforts
and easiest way to solve that will be add assists to pvp, and make those assists counts for pvp aps also (i mean pvp aps should look like 10k kills/assists, but not only kills)

Pvp is balanced? What?

[PsychoNuke]

Well that explains a lot actually. It makes sense that the lower tier gears for Mages to have worse stats than those of Rogues and Warriors, simply because of the skills that the classes have.

If we just use gear without procs, Mages would be the best class hands down because of their skills. They have the ability to use Shield, recover Health and Mana, attack multiple enemies at once, attack a single enemy for heavy damage, slow enemies, and other stuff I am probably missing. So this explains that the gear without procs are fine to have worse stats to maintain class balance. I'm not sure if you play the Warrior class, but if you do, playing it feels extremely empty and hard until you get weapons with procs, even if the item stats are above average.

I doubt that, each class have their unique skills that make their roles stand out, mages might do good at mobs but they lack at single target damage, rogues will do good at boss but they lack at CC, and warriors should not be running alone, I mean they are tanks. And its exactly how it should be. Balance doesnt mean they all be equal at output (I said this in OP too).
Balance only means that the growth of all classes is parallel, the OP only suggests that its is not and the baseline for that growth is probably incorrect (considering only weapons in this thread). Its as simple as that.



Good procs for Mages like Flame Staff, Immo Staff, or DS, made them the best class for PvE without any contest. This was easily noticeable during the Mausoleum and Underhul times, pretty much around the times when Mages had the worst stats. So in the end we can see that when Mages had the good procs, their garbage stats didn't matter at all.

True, and we (players and sts) learnt from the mistakes of past, we dont want more banish and over powered procs. While I do blame players for keeping it quite (they were no different from the players you see on this thread who are just adding speculations to show everything is fine), I do blame devs too for not doing a fact check. I made this thread because it matters to me that all classes should be balanced, more than mage I like to see the damage gap between warrior and rogue to get a bit less, and when it comes to mage armor I only suggested 90 extra armor over the current stats.

Off Topic
If you see the threads from last year you will see I was one of the players who always said nerf flame staff, nerf DS, nerf immo we dont want to use 3 generations old weapons. Those comments are there on vrooms dev blog as well, and I got plenty of hate at that time from not only mages but warriors and rogues saying it will increase the completion time for maus. Trust me I was the happiest guy when they nerfed all old weapons for mage at level 71, feel free to check my posts and threads on forum for the last 6 months.

Now that we are finally at a place where things are getting balanced, old bugs/issues getting fixed, STS is taking measures to balance things - so we are at a very good place. Its the perfect time when class balance for pve and pvp needs to be addressed. I am adding unbiased facts to the table for discussion, you wont see any of my opinions until the conclusion of the OP, and I made sure I highlight my opinion outside the facts at the end because people have the tendency to generalize the facts.

I am not sure what people are loosing their minds about? I already have plenty of hate pms, and most of them didn't even read the OP properly, But its alright, I will just ignore them :)

[Thewolfbull]

YOUR problem that u cant complete ur pvp aps same fast as rogues, pvp doesnt have any disbalance, its only about that rogues getting all kills and all deaths
so its problem about that warriors and mages dont getting rewards for their efforts
and easiest way to solve that will be add assists to pvp, and make those assists counts for pvp aps also (i mean pvp aps should look like 10k kills/assists, but not only kills)

Would be good but do you really think they will do that? Lol. when i'm about to kill some rogues they leave when low hp and even that doesn't count as a kill. If they did it this way it would be great but i'm not getting my hopes up.

[V i o l e t]

As pointed out, there is no denying that with each cap, the weapons do display an increasing gap between the rogue dmg/armor and the dmg/armor of warrior and mage. I understand that the aim of the thread is not a simplified comparison of stats between the classes but it is about the gap in progression of stats for each class.

Was the spurt in rogue stats necessary? Maybe it was. This point is debatable and viewpoints may differ in the future depending on how big the gap gets and if we really need it. Damage stats alone do not decide damage output, perhaps the spurt in stats was deemed necessary by devs for rogues to work well in current zones.

Whether that gap maintains balance or topples it, depends on how it is working currently and how it would work in the future. For now, as a mage, I am not facing any hardship and would not want a buff for the mage class.

[PsychoNuke]

@Thread: Please stop the drama, this thread is not about PVE or PVP is balanced or other things.
It is about class balance and the thread is only specific to weapons, saying that the damage and armor gap between weapons are not parallel, that's all. Make a new thread if you like to discuss skills/procs etc., I would love to help you and add value to it.

Please read the OP properly, its fine if you agree or disagree its your opinion and I respect that. I thank you if you add some value to the discussion. I will report you if you create drama just to make a fuss. I think that's all I can do, thank you very much.

+
@Players who asked why variables are not considered for baselines does not understand what baselines or benchmark are, so I would kindly ask them to start from reading about those things. Feel free to PM once you understand what they are, how they are defined and what they are used for. Ty :)

[slaaayerrr]

Would be good but do you really think they will do that?
that will be fair

when i'm about to kill some rogues they leave when low hp and even that doesn't count as a kill.
so u still able to kill some rogues (even making them to leave pvp)... but in other threads u telling that warriors cant kill rogues and need buff :D

[arcanefid]

I doubt that, each class have their unique skills that make their roles stand out, mages might do good at mobs but they lack at single target damage, rogues will do good at boss but they lack at CC, and warriors should not be running alone, I mean they are tanks. And its exactly how it should be. Balance doesnt mean they all be equal at output (I said this in OP too).
Balance only means that the growth of all classes is parallel, the OP only suggests that its is not and the baseline for that growth is probably incorrect (considering only weapons in this thread). Its as simple as that.

Their single target damage is bigger than Warrior's through both Ice and the Thunder one (I don't remember their names). They also do a better job at damaging multiple enemies at once, and also do a better job at slowing down enemies.

"Warriors should not be running alone"

Mages are a support class and yet they can finish any map solo much faster than a Warrior if we don't take into account weapon procs or Pet AAs. If we include procs and AAs, then it's even worse. That statement is just wrong any way you look at it.


@Thread: Please stop the drama, this thread is not about PVE or PVP is balanced or other things.
It is about class balance and the thread is only specific to weapons, saying that the damage and armor gap between weapons are not parallel, that's all. Make a new thread if you like to discuss skills/procs etc., I would love to help you and add value to it.

Please read the OP properly, its fine if you agree or disagree its your opinion and I respect that. I thank you if you add some value to the discussion. I will report you if you create drama just to make a fuss. I think that's all I can do, thank you very much.

+
@Players who asked why variables are not considered for baselines does not understand what baselines or benchmark are, so I would kindly ask them to start from reading about those things. Feel free to PM once you understand what they are, how they are defined and what they are used for. Ty :)

How do you plan to properly discuss class balance and the evolution of weapons by not considering the weapons and class balance itself?

Skills and weapon procs are literally the most important things that contribute to class balance and the evolution of weapons. Ignoring these two elements completely and asking to discuss class balance doesn't make sense.

I guess this thread is just useless then, because we are not allowed to discuss anything here.

[Tuhguhbuhbuh]

Just give mages rocket launchers. Problem solved. Dvfrgrhtyjhmk!

[Thewolfbull]

that will be fair

so u still able to kill some rogues (even making them to leave pvp)... but in other threads u telling that warriors cant kill rogues and need buff :D

If they use the wrong pet or have very bad gear yeah :p ,majority of tank vs rogue is either endless fights or rogue is able to kill me while I do low dmg to them. Asked a bunch of rogues and they say no tanks can kill them in pvp.

[PsychoNuke]

As pointed out, there is no denying that with each cap, the weapons do display an increasing gap between the rogue dmg/armor and the dmg/armor of warrior and mage. I understand that the aim of the thread is not a simplified comparison of stats between the classes but it is about the gap in progression of stats for each class.

Was the spurt in rogue stats necessary? Maybe it was. This point is debatable and viewpoints may differ in the future depending on how big the gap gets and if we really need it. Damage stats alone do not decide damage output, perhaps the spurt in stats was deemed necessary by devs for rogues to work well in current zones.

Whether that gap maintains balance or topples it, depends on how it is working currently and how it would work in the future. For now, as a mage, I am not facing any hardship and would not want a buff for the mage class.

Thanks Violet, I am happy to see that people are able read and understand the OP.
And from your answer I understand that you are comfortable with the increasing gap of armor and damage because it does not affects you as a mage at present.

^This right here is all I need from this thread, if you are comfortable with it or not, if you are not then tell us what you think right values should be according to you, how much should it be balanced? lower? or higher? etc. And it will be nice if you can add an explanation on why you think it should change or not.

[PsychoNuke]

How do you plan to properly discuss class balance and the evolution of weapons by not considering the weapons and class balance itself?

Skills and weapon procs are literally the most important things that contribute to class balance and the evolution of weapons. Ignoring these two elements completely and asking to discuss class balance doesn't make sense.

I guess this thread is just useless then, because we are not allowed to discuss anything here.

This is the main problem with everyone on this thread (less with you, you are at-least trying to put some ideas and value), trying to merge components and mainly not even reading or understanding the OP properly before commenting. Its not about being allowed (I cannot stop anyone) but more about discussing it right.

None of the comments on this thread actually discussed the OP. You know what OP points out? That the three weapons are not buffed at the right proportion at every cap.
Why there is a gap between damage and armor and should it be reduced or left to be kept increasing. It projects how it will look on next 3 caps if it is not reduced.

Having the same gap on all weapon types (legendary, mythic etc), with or without procs shows that porcs does not affects it.
Skill Damage depends on Stat Damage, so how can skills be the cause? If anything, it adds to the issue that the gap between skill damage for every class is also getting increased every cap.

This thread is to understand what is a "right balance" for damage and armor gap between Rogues, Mages and Warriors to begin with. To understand if the current baseline is correct or if it needs modification, and that happens when people share their inputs. But I think I am expecting too much here, the members on this forum are not suited for it.

Hope you are able to see my stand now. Please tell me if it is hard to understand this out of OP, I would like to know if there are any kind of edits required there. I would be happy to make it more layman friendly, because man I am clueless where does half of the comments on this thread points to. People just see class balance written and start commenting blindly about whatever they feel like, sigh..

As I mentioned before lets take things one at a time. Skills will come into picture, but to have a open discussion on skills on facts we need the data (I am talking about taking baselines of skill damage of all skills of all classes on same stat damage) and I am still figuring out how I will get access to that data, I will sure need help. Right now all we have on this thread are comments with assumptions and speculations, that is just waste of time


Their single target damage is bigger than Warrior's through both Ice and the Thunder one (I don't remember their names). They also do a better job at damaging multiple enemies at once, and also do a better job at slowing down enemies.

"Warriors should not be running alone"

Mages are a support class and yet they can finish any map solo much faster than a Warrior if we don't take into account weapon procs or Pet AAs. If we include procs and AAs, then it's even worse. That statement is just wrong any way you look at it.



I agree, now apply what I said above to your comment, and tell me do you see the issue?
I think this is the part where we finally come to same page.

[arcanefid]

This is the main problem with everyone on this thread (less with you, you are at-least trying to put some ideas and value), trying to merge components and mainly not even reading or understanding the OP properly before commenting. Its not about being allowed (I cannot stop anyone) but more about discussing it right.

None of the comments on this thread actually discussed the OP. You know what OP points out? That the three weapons are not buffed at the right proportion at every cap.
Why there is a gap between damage and armor and should it be reduced or left to be kept increasing. It projects how it will look on next 3 caps if it is not reduced.

Having the same gap on all weapon types (legendary, mythic etc), with or without procs shows that porcs does not affects it.
Skill Damage depends on Stat Damage, so how can skills be the cause? If anything, it adds to the issue that the gap between skill damage for every class is also getting increased every cap.

This thread is to understand what is a "right balance" for damage and armor gap between Rogues, Mages and Warriors to begin with. To understand if the current baseline is correct or if it needs modification, and that happens when people share their inputs. But I think I am expecting too much here, the members on this forum are not suited for it.

Hope you are able to see my stand now. Please tell me if it is hard to understand this out of OP, I would like to know if there are any kind of edits required there. I would be happy to make it more layman friendly, because man I am clueless where does half of the comments on this thread points to. People just see class balance written and start commenting blindly about whatever they feel like, sigh..

As I mentioned before lets take things one at a time. Skills will come into picture, but to have a open discussion on skills on facts we need the data (I am talking about taking baselines of skill damage of all skills of all classes on same stat damage) and I am still figuring out how I will get access to that data, I will sure need help. Right now all we have on this thread are comments with assumptions and speculations, that is just waste of time



I agree, now apply what I said above to your comment, and tell me do you see the issue?
I think this is the part where we finally come to same page.

I never really checked the stats in as much detail as you did in the OP, but I am sure I understand the point of it very well.

You started the discussion with the stats, but I am not sure if that is the correct step to start with. There are some things that I (and many others here) think you should take into account before going to the numbers, such as the roles of the class, and also the skills. I will not mention the procs this time.

If we discuss things in a different order, not starting from the numbers, we might have some findings which explain why the stats are what they are. If the Mages are the support class, then do they really need higher damage and higher armor? You mentioned that tanks shouldn't run alone, in that case we should be able to say that Mages shouldn't be running alone too, and the same for Rogues.

And the skills are still very important if you want to discuss numbers. You simply can't ignore that and go straight to the stats graphs. I understand that Skill damage is based on the stats, but you're not calculating what the skills actually do.


Let's do some extremely simplified calculations just to show what I mean:

A mage with 100 Damage stat
A rogue with 400 Damage stat
A warrior with... 50 Damage stat

If Fireball hits 6 enemies for 100 damage each or even 50 damage each, then one Fireball you cast is doing a total of 600 Damage (or 300 in the case of 50 each). If a Rogue's arrow is doing 400 Damage to one enemy, then a mage is still dealing more (or almost the same in the case of 50) damage even if their damage stats is much smaller. And this is why you can't just go straight to the numbers. I won't take any example for warriors here.

If you still think that no one is understanding the OP, or assume that we are all ignoring what you said, then I think you should definitely re-write it and make it more clear. But I also ask you to carefully read what we are saying, because no one is as off topic as you're saying they are.

Edit: I forgot to mention one other thing, since we're discussing mostly PvE here, then you should know that the three classes work together and not against each other, so my armor is your armor, and your damage is my damage. ;3

Edit 2: I am definitely comfortable with how the stats are progressing now. But I will not be comfortable when warriors become useless again because we won't be getting the TB proc all the time. :P

[slaaayerrr]

If they use the wrong pet or have very bad gear yeah :p

1) before u talking about pvp balance, are u sure that YOU using correct pet in pvp? we dueled how many times? 30?40? i was always using nox bolt instead of aimed, and i never see u using glowstik or nilbog in those duels for remove dot from nox (u dont even try it), there are 4-5 stacks of poison on u before u die, what u used last time? toxy or venim? why not pets which removing dot? or maybe its so hard to swap pet (in middle of fight, for example after ur jugg) in new stable which all players so liked
2) if u telling that rogues getting all kills in pvp, why u dont tell who getting all deaths there? lol
3) if rogue win u in 1v1 with score 3:0 it doesnt means that rogue dealt to u over 100k damage and u dealt 0 dmg to rogue, it means that rogue was a bit better than u 3 times (again question why balanced pvp means that warrior should easily kill rogue), most of rogues in pvp have perfect (or close to perfect) awakes, maybe u can show urs? or "balance" for u means u can buy average awakened items, go pvp (by tank) and kill everyone? your story about how u bought cheap items for ur rogue and killed all - u could see how i bought some staffs for my mage (no jewels no awakes, no pet, no shield, nothing + half of gears was dex type) and on that mage i was more usefull in maus than by my geared rogue, so which class needed to be nerfed? rogues or mages?
4) imagine teams 2warr + 1rogue vs 3 rogues... guess who will win? so it means 2 warrior stronger than 2 rogues, disbalance here, lets nerf warriors (ur logic)
5) if u are so worried about that u cant kill rogues 1v1, have u ever tried vs mage? i mean vs strong pvp mage with correct gears and skills, not those cheap mages which u see everywhere? i'm sure result will be same, so why u still about nerfing rogues if mages better in 1v1 (vs warrior, this is important for u) and still better and cheaper in maps like maus for gold farming?
6) if u are best in pve and have so much expierence - means u already best in pvp?

[PsychoNuke]

@arcanefid: Do me a forever, instead of discussing on hypothetical numbers compare the skill damage for all classes on same base damage stat. You will realize that reality is different than what you are speculating, also, each class have aoe and single target skills, so you should compere aoe skill with aoe, and single target with single target, not any skill with any skill. (I already did some homework on this but I don't have the complete data yet, bit busy)

I understand PVE interdependence but that does not mean your armor is my armor and my damage is your damage, that's only applicable if the game was designed to force party to include 1 of each class every time (like in other MMOs) :).
Also I wont label the roles on classes as justification to anything, I mean if warriors are given all that armor because they are only suppose to be Tanks then Taunts are not suppose to be an option, aggro should be by default enabled on them. If Mages are suppose to be only support then they should have Utility skills more than Damage skills, buffs/debuffs for party/enemy, and other attributes like interrupts. But that's not the case for any of those classes, isnt it.

[arcanefid]

@arcanefid: Do me a forever, instead of discussing on hypothetical numbers compare the skill damage for all classes on same base damage stat. You will realize that reality is different than what you are speculating, also, each class have aoe and single target skills, so you should compere aoe skill with aoe, and single target with single target, not any skill with any skill. (I already did some homework on this but I don't have the complete data yet, bit busy)

I understand PVE interdependence but that does not mean your armor is my armor and my damage is your damage, that's only applicable if the game was designed to force party to include 1 of each class every time (like in other MMOs) :).
Also I wont label the roles on classes as justification to anything, I mean if warriors are given all that armor because they are only suppose to be Tanks then Taunts are not suppose to be an option, aggro should be by default enabled on them. If Mages are suppose to be only support then they should have Utility skills more than Damage skills, buffs/debuffs for party/enemy, and other attributes like interrupts. But that's not the case for any of those classes, isnt it.

What is the point of this thread exactly?

I don't want to be rude, but you're still ignoring what everyone is saying.

[Thewolfbull]

1) before u talking about pvp balance, are u sure that YOU using correct pet in pvp? we dueled how many times? 30?40? i was always using nox bolt instead of aimed, and i never see u using glowstik or nilbog in those duels for remove dot from nox (u dont even try it), there are 4-5 stacks of poison on u before u die, what u used last time? toxy or venim? why not pets which removing dot? or maybe its so hard to swap pet (in middle of fight, for example after ur jugg) in new stable which all players so liked
2) if u telling that rogues getting all kills in pvp, why u dont tell who getting all deaths there? lol
3) if rogue win u in 1v1 with score 3:0 it doesnt means that rogue dealt to u over 100k damage and u dealt 0 dmg to rogue, it means that rogue was a bit better than u 3 times (again question why balanced pvp means that warrior should easily kill rogue), most of rogues in pvp have perfect (or close to perfect) awakes, maybe u can show urs? or "balance" for u means u can buy average awakened items, go pvp (by tank) and kill everyone? your story about how u bought cheap items for ur rogue and killed all - u could see how i bought some staffs for my mage (no jewels no awakes, no pet, no shield, nothing + half of gears was dex type) and on that mage i was more usefull in maus than by my geared rogue, so which class needed to be nerfed? rogues or mages?
4) imagine teams 2warr + 1rogue vs 3 rogues... guess who will win? so it means 2 warrior stronger than 2 rogues, disbalance here, lets nerf warriors (ur logic)
5) if u are so worried about that u cant kill rogues 1v1, have u ever tried vs mage? i mean vs strong pvp mage with correct gears and skills, not those cheap mages which u see everywhere? i'm sure result will be same, so why u still about nerfing rogues if mages better in 1v1 (vs warrior, this is important for u) and still better and cheaper in maps like maus for gold farming?
6) if u are best in pve and have so much expierence - means u already best in pvp?

There is bad and good for each pet if i use glow i do no dmg and get stunned and it's endless fight, and you can heal. Venim does dmg and stops heal. Nekro stops stun and freeze from breeze. I have tried pets and still am testing different stuff but nothing seems to work when i can't do enough dmg to get the kill.
Of course rogues get most of the deaths but it's by other rogues not tanks.
I've vsed some mages even that one u linked in video once i think to and it's endless fight 100% of time same as tank vs tank
The only way i ever kill rogue is if they run out of mana and with pets like mishi and jack and heal that never happens.
My awakens are pretty good rn not perfect but good.
I'm not best in pvp not even close.
It's just annoying how an undergeared noob rogue (me) gets random kills faster than any tank.
If you find any warrior who can kill rogues or any class consistently let me know how they do it please.
I don't want a buff on warriors I don't think that would help but a nerf on all classes armor might help so that everyone can do decent dmg to eachother.

I don't mind if tank become the class to die the most as long as we are getting some kills too

Or just change pvp kill ap so it's not just about kills and leave classes as is, It's a good idea and i hope the devs do this.

[PsychoNuke]

What is the point of this thread exactly?

I don't want to be rude, but you're still ignoring what everyone is saying.


I didn't ignore, I only said we should not use hypothetical data but actual numbers. Did I miss something?
I explained the motive of this thread on post# 53. But then your reply to that shows that you can only comprehend and add value to the OP if skills are discussed.

So I agreed to discuss it, and I was serious on last comment, I thought you can help on the warrior side, and we might need a rogue to help on that front to evaluate the skills.
Please let me know if you disagree on anything I said on previous comment and why?

[Trader]

I think the current DPS difference between the arcane weapons in the winter preview is fine. But I agree that the gap should not increasing like how it shows in those graphs, its not symmetrical. I think people don't really care about these things anymore because its all about gold loot in pve. It does matter in pvp but nobody plays it anymore.

People will only cry about class balance when there is gold involved, remember what happened in hydra that is the sad truth. People do not even remember anymore that mage get 5% and warrior get 10% damage buff on both raids. If everything is balanced that should not be there, so even devs agree that it is not balanced.
Lastly I think armor for mage should be raised by like 40, I mean that is like 2 excellent jewels.

Thanks for taking the effort to make this thread but sorry I think this thread is going to die like any other rational thing on internet.

[arcanefid]

But then your reply to that shows that you can only comprehend and add value to the OP if skills are discussed.

Exactly. I think this is where we can't really agree, because I don't see how we can come up with reliable conclusions on balance and evolution of weapons if we don't include skills and even procs.

As for the numbers alone, and to answer the question that you said is the whole point of the thread, then I already said that I am comfortable with how they're progressing, because I don't see any class being left out at the moment. However, if I notice that Mages are being left out and having a hard time specifically because of their bad stats, then I will of course support buffing them.

[PsychoNuke]

Exactly. I think this is where we can't really agree, because I don't see how we can come up with reliable conclusions on balance and evolution of weapons if we don't include skills and even procs.
lol, did you literally didnot read the next line on last comment :p you hasty owl xD
I said: "So I agreed to discuss it, and I was serious on last comment, I thought you can help on the warrior side, and we might need a rogue to help on that front to evaluate the skills."

But anyway if you are interested lets pick this up after holidays, I can only do my research over weekends.



As for the numbers alone, and to answer the question that you said is the whole point of the thread, then I already said that I am comfortable with how they're progressing, because I don't see any class being left out at the moment.

That's cool.

[Twiinks]

+1


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PsychoNuke]

I think the current DPS difference between the arcane weapons in the winter preview is fine. But I agree that the gap should not increasing like how it shows in those graphs, its not symmetrical. I think people don't really care about these things anymore because its all about gold loot in pve. It does matter in pvp but nobody plays it anymore.

People will only cry about class balance when there is gold involved, remember what happened in hydra that is the sad truth. People do not even remember anymore that mage get 5% and warrior get 10% damage buff on both raids. If everything is balanced that should not be there, so even devs agree that it is not balanced.
Lastly I think armor for mage should be raised by like 40, I mean that is like 2 excellent jewels.

I hate to say this but I am starting to see that your analogy might be right, and boy I do hope it's not. But anyway thanks for the feedback.



Thanks for taking the effort to make this thread but sorry I think this thread is going to die like any other rational thing on internet.

I think its better to have 1 logical insightful comment on this thread then having a zillions of comments that makes no sense. And Its Okay even if it dies, I am sure it will help some other nerd like me in future to understand and pick things up :)

[arcanefid]

But anyway if you are interested lets pick this up after holidays, I can only do my research over weekends.

Yeah, maybe some other time in the future, because I also have tons of things to do in real life which I consider more important. As for now, we'll just splash the cash and buy overpowered items. XD

[slaaayerrr]

Um... If there's no imbalance, then why at the end of events rogues lead the lb with most points followed by mages then warriors?

last 2-3 events there were warriors who got most points if u didnt notice, and how event lb can show any balance idk

[Dispressor]

Wow good post with fact and stats hope devs read it +1000. Hope we get a new baseline.
I know that I am asking u a lot but I think that a new baseline for stats is needed.
I will be great if u post an analisys of damage done by skill and dps done considering cool down.
Cool work again one of the best post in forum section.

[Nohealth]

Ok. Thats not true. The hole lb, not 3-4 in top who run 24/7.

Basically, two thirds of the players spend less energy (rogues running way faster given the same amount of time), that means less plats, that means less money.

Hypothetically, if you expand the event to 300 days, so you would remove the possibility for some players running 24/7, guess who will be on the lb? rogues, all of them!

If you cannot comprehend this basic concept then i got nothing else to speak to you.

Its not like devs can't ckeck the data if they care enough to do so.




Wow good post with fact and stats hope devs read it +1000. Hope we get a new baseline.
I know that I am asking u a lot but I think that a new baseline for stats is needed.
I will be great if u post an analisys of damage done by skill and dps done considering cool down.
Cool work again one of the best post in forum section.



For some reason I can't like the posts so I'll just QUOTE them by giving it +1 XD

[PsychoNuke]

I will be great if u post an analisys of damage done by skill and dps done considering cool down.


This is something I want to do as this has been suggested many times on forum, I am just stuck at getting materials. I need a level 71 Warrior and Rogue who can help. Because unfortunately my Rogue and Warrior alts are level 66 :\ (These things are very easy to do on public test servers, unfortunately its closed in AL :p)