Global Mage Balance Suggestion!

[MageFFA]

I don't think this thread needs a full on intro on why mages should be nerfed but I will give it a run down.

Critical: Mages Crit is unrivaled without a doubt. While most classes can barely top 300 on a critical attack Mages easily can drop 400-600 on simple skills such as Frost and fire, while major damage skills like drain and lightning are landing for 700-750. These random Super Criticals can absolutely obliterate the oppentent without any chance of fighting back to win.

Examples: In 15 a bear who has been hit by a paw proc (-25 Armor reduction) can be followed up by a 200-300 Critical attack on light and drain that will kill them easily. In 27 even when Crushing blowed( Damage and Dodge reduction) mages can still sneak in a 200 Lightning followed by sometimes a 400 critical drain. In L.30-45 it is no where near uncommon to get 1 shot by a 500-600 Critical Drain, Lightning, Fire, or even frost. If that wasn't enough mages can also drop 700 critical drains which is 300 more crit than the highest landed crit a fox has landed on a player, fox being the second strongest class in twink. In L.30-45 Honor it is more balanced but critical is still a issue as we see mages landing 469 critical on just a mere frost.

Hit%: A minor problem compared to the rest. Mages hit actually broken. My L.30 War bird has 89 base Hit% but since it's a bird I can buff my Hit% with focus. Now since I'm buffing up to 105 I can still lose alot of hit from another birds blind skill. A single blind from another bird leaves me powerless to fight back yet in the same situation a mage with 99% Hit is not effected by blind what so ever. I've Blinded a mage -30 Hit with 2 Forgotten Bow procs -15 stacked (-60 Hit reduction in total) yet I was still nuked by drain light fire right after.

Armor: Mages armor value is extreme. Another major problem on this list is the fact that mages can tank full combos such as beck stomp, shatter blast, rabid ham, and charge redemption without taking any significant damage. Beck stomp in 27 does not effect my mage at all. In 35 while most bears use maximum dmg, I can use ms to tank most of the damage while using combos to nuke them. In 30-40 Honor mages CANNOT be nuked by a singlar combo. Even being able to tank 2 consecutive bird combos without needing to heal and ms alot. 105 needs no comment as we see dex mages unable to be killed by dex bears or str bears.

I could easily bring up more topics and examples so these are just a few. My input for what I think the nerf should be is

25% Critical Reduction
12% Base Damage Reduction
5-8% Hit Reduction
Armor reduction of 15%

Comment on what you guys think the nerf should look like

[burntoutdex]

Cannot fault that. These suggestions should be trialed for one to two weeks to see how it affects pvp across the board.

Heal missing should also be fixed if that's still an issue. (Can't remember if it got fixed.)

[Draebatad]

Cannot fault that. These suggestions should be trialed for one to two weeks to see how it affects pvp across the board.

Nice detailed rebalance suggestions, op.

Cinco said he won't have any time for issues like this until after the 110 cap, but that is not far off at this point in time.

I'm a big proponent of trial testing. In this case, try out suggested rebalances, and see how they work.

Birds should also get some buffing whenever they get around to balancing the mage class.

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[burntoutdex]

Nice detailed rebalance suggestions, op.

Cinco said he won't have any time for issues like this until after the 110 cap, but that is not far off at this point in time.

I'm a big proponent of trial testing. In this case, try out suggested rebalances, and see how they work.

Birds should also get some buffing whenever they get around to balancing the mage class.

We are happy to wait for balance, it's only natural that the cap should be perfected first.

The easiest buff for bird would be to replace meditation in the way detailed by Dolloway in the other thread.. and trial that also.

[Draebatad]

Cam,

Would you please quote Dolloway's suggestion in this thread, just for easy access by all who read this thread?

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[burntoutdex]

Cam,

Would you please quote Dolloway's suggestion in this thread, just for easy access by all who read this thread?


Good idea! I need eleven.


I do not think there needs to be a new skill made - we can just use the existing one (Meditation). While I do partially agree with Quality and Burningdex, I also believe the skill needs a risk component as well to make it balanced (a self armor debuff, as the skill was intended when originally created).

L1 5dmg 1 crit, -1 armor
L2 10dmg 2crit, -2 armor
L3 15dmg 4crit, -4 armor
L4 20dmg 6crit, -6 armor
L5 25dmg 8crit, -8 armor
L6 30dmg 10crit, -10 armor

Level 7-9 could be scaled as follows:
L7: 35 dmg, 12 crit, -12 armor
L8: 40 dmg, 14 crit, -14 armor
L9: 45 dmg, 16 crit, -20 armor

The highest level offers the highest risk/reward element in the game with a self-debuff of -20 armor as compared to the -14 at level 8.

The same could apply to rhinos' Divine Aura as well, who tend to struggle in low level PVP, even above level 30. Both changes would be greatly more useful in both PVP and PVE for both classes and could go a long way in making rhinos and archers viable in low level PVP once more.

[burntoutdex]

I started making a collection of imgur albums to compare average damage across classes..

I say average damage because these some 30 photos were taken in the span of 4games..

Statistically: 7.5 kills a game were insta kills

No one in this set of matches was using max damage - this isn't anywhere close to the max damage you can do on any class.

https://imgur.com/gallery/LWUupjd

I'll add more here as i play more, i'll most likely do honour tomorrow night and get some there.

[MageFFA]

I started making a collection of imgur albums to compare average damage across classes..

I say average damage because these some 30 photos were taken in the span of 4games..

Statistically: 7.5 kills a game were insta kills

No one in this set of matches was using max damage - this isn't anywhere close to the max damage you can do on any class.

https://imgur.com/gallery/LWUupjd

I'll add more here as i play more, i'll most likely do honour tomorrow night and get some there.

Most of that fight I was just using ms drain to 1 shot or ms drain fire to get a Insta kill.

[burntoutdex]

Most of that fight I was just using ms drain to 1 shot or ms drain fire to get a Insta kill.

You beat me using 2damage skills the entire game. lol.

[MageFFA]

We will be posting more screen shots in a bit. Quick overview of what happened lately.

I recently made a 15 mage after merching off a L.15 Paw and Evi. In L.15 while mages aren't as OP as they are in 27 and 30-40 they still have their moments. I've drained Iron Blood (Armor and Health buff) Bears for over 200 crit consistently and has easily beaten some 18 bears which would have been next to impossible to do back some 3+ years. Fbow bears Proc doesn't effect me as it should and other mage can be hit by a large barrage of critical attacks from drain and fire. Safe to say 15 is no different outside of the facts that 15 bears are always reigning L.15 PvP as the best class, though mages do come closer than ever now.

[Yogaa]

Cinco is busy now making a New level cap , it's not the right time for this. If you really want a balance PVP play in honor map.

I believe Cinco will make a perfect PvP system in this new cap so just be patient.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

[burntoutdex]

Cinco is busy now making a New level cap , it's not the right time for this. If you really want a balance PVP play in honor map.

I believe Cinco will make a perfect PvP system in this new cap so just be patient.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

He said he would tweak mages after adjusting the 110cap. to do this effectively, he suggested that we make a forum thread. Honour isn't perfectly balanced either, mages are still op, lol

[Snacking]

I don't think this thread needs a full on intro on why mages should be nerfed but I will give it a run down.

Critical: Mages Crit is unrivaled without a doubt. While most classes can barely top 300 on a critical attack Mages easily can drop 400-600 on simple skills such as Frost and fire, while major damage skills like drain and lightning are landing for 700-750. These random Super Criticals can absolutely obliterate the oppentent without any chance of fighting back to win.

Examples: In 15 a bear who has been hit by a paw proc (-25 Armor reduction) can be followed up by a 200-300 Critical attack on light and drain that will kill them easily. In 27 even when Crushing blowed( Damage and Dodge reduction) mages can still sneak in a 200 Lightning followed by sometimes a 400 critical drain. In L.30-45 it is no where near uncommon to get 1 shot by a 500-600 Critical Drain, Lightning, Fire, or even frost. If that wasn't enough mages can also drop 700 critical drains which is 300 more crit than the highest landed crit a fox has landed on a player, fox being the second strongest class in twink. In L.30-45 Honor it is more balanced but critical is still a issue as we see mages landing 469 critical on just a mere frost.

Hit%: A minor problem compared to the rest. Mages hit actually broken. My L.30 War bird has 89 base Hit% but since it's a bird I can buff my Hit% with focus. Now since I'm buffing up to 105 I can still lose alot of hit from another birds blind skill. A single blind from another bird leaves me powerless to fight back yet in the same situation a mage with 99% Hit is not effected by blind what so ever. I've Blinded a mage -30 Hit with 2 Forgotten Bow procs -15 stacked (-60 Hit reduction in total) yet I was still nuked by drain light fire right after.

Armor: Mages armor value is extreme. Another major problem on this list is the fact that mages can tank full combos such as beck stomp, shatter blast, rabid ham, and charge redemption without taking any significant damage. Beck stomp in 27 does not effect my mage at all. In 35 while most bears use maximum dmg, I can use ms to tank most of the damage while using combos to nuke them. In 30-40 Honor mages CANNOT be nuked by a singlar combo. Even being able to tank 2 consecutive bird combos without needing to heal and ms alot. 105 needs no comment as we see dex mages unable to be killed by dex bears or str bears.

I could easily bring up more topics and examples so these are just a few. My input for what I think the nerf should be is

25% Critical Reduction
12% Base Damage Reduction
5-8% Hit Reduction
Armor reduction of 15%

Comment on what you guys think the nerf should look like

If you take off 8% hit from my lvl27 mage it’d be in the low 80’s. No thank you. Maybe it should scale with level.
If this “balance” becomes effective,, mages will literally become useless at lvl22-27 and that is THE MOST active level in pvp. Maybe a nerf is needed but not this significant.
Don’t kill off the what little is left of the pvp community. 27 is almost a safehaven for somewhat balanced pvp. Like I said. Scale it with level.

[burntoutdex]

If you take off 8% hit from my lvl27 mage it’d be in the low 80’s. No thank you. Maybe it should scale with level.
If this “balance” becomes effective,, mages will literally become useless at lvl22-27 and that is THE MOST active level in pvp. Maybe a nerf is needed but not this significant.
Don’t kill off the what little is left of the pvp community. 27 is almost a safehaven for somewhat balanced pvp. Like I said. Scale it with level.

The unfortunate thing is, even after these suggest balances, mages are still going to be far superior to everything else. I also don't understand how you think 27 is even slightly balanced when only one class is half-decent.

80% hit is a lot, very near to the hit% cap too :). Perhaps you might remember back in 2011 when dex mages reigned superior at 23-6 because they had hit% from Artisan's Leathers and their dex spec - have you considered using those items? Sure, you might lose 20skill damage, but, i assure you, mages will still 3hit everything after these changes so you don't need to worry about no longer being OP.

[MageFFA]

If you take off 8% hit from my lvl27 mage it’d be in the low 80’s. No thank you. Maybe it should scale with level.
If this “balance” becomes effective,, mages will literally become useless at lvl22-27 and that is THE MOST active level in pvp. Maybe a nerf is needed but not this significant.
Don’t kill off the what little is left of the pvp community. 27 is almost a safehaven for somewhat balanced pvp. Like I said. Scale it with level.

I have to disagree with that statement wofu. I've personally seen you take 2 Fbows proc stacked (-30 Hit in total) while hsed (-30 Hit again) and still end up winning the fight against a bear. Now if we do the math an average 27 mage has what 94-96 Hit right? 96 Highballed subtracted by 60 is 36 hit in total. Let me Highball this even more. Let's say 27 mages have 105 hit in total. Again subtract 105-60 and you'll have a total of 45. Again let's Highball this even more with mages having 130 hit. 130-60 is 70.

98-100 Hit is the absolute most you can have to not miss a single attack unless debuffed. You can play 27 mage pure int( which I did before) and still have enough hit to slap classes like bears and foxes. Now unless mages stats are boosted but not shown visible from attributes I find this dam near impossible to happen.

[P u r e]

You people know WAY to much about PvP number computing....

[MageFFA]

Recently tested Hit% for mages in honor PvP. Shelby my test subject has over 80-85 Hit because he is int dex. I blinded him for -30 Hit and we conducted the test. First Hit% debuff test shelby fired me 4/5 times while under blind which dropped him to 56 base Hit%. The second test only dropped down to 3/5 fires.

Now I don't know about you but unless hit Is broken I can't comprehend how he's landing these attacks with 56 base hit. Anyone of you mage users want to explain?

[burntoutdex]

Just thought i'd leak my mage skillmap:
https://i.imgur.com/DqT0BHA.jpg

[burntoutdex]

You people know WAY to much about PvP number computing....

PL PvP is life.

[Snacking]

Yeah hit is broken, but it shouldn’t be nerfed. We’re talking about balancing pvp, and ur wanting to take mages hit into the low 80’s making every fight even more LUCK BASED. It’s just gonna be a roll of the dice whether ur enemies attacks hit, and u just gotta pray urs do,, but yes let’s make pvp even more rng based!!
(Every class has a hit buff besides mage/bear, so it makes sense for them to have decently high hit at low level.)

Also cam,, even the best mages still lose to bear and fox all the time. They’re not just miles ahead of every other class,, but yes I agree they are over powered. Rhinos/birds just can’t hang with any class. It’s just not game breaking to the other main pvp classes at 22-27 as long as they know what they’re doing. Maybe ur just bad at pvp. :(

P.s. no I haven’t considered using hit% items bc no hit nerf has taken place yet. Maybe in the future tho :)

[MageFFA]

Yeah hit is broken, but it shouldn’t be nerfed. We’re talking about balancing pvp, and ur wanting to take mages hit into the low 80’s making every fight even more LUCK BASED. It’s just a roll of the dice whether ur enemies attacks hit, and u just gotta pray urs do,, but yes let’s make pvp even more rng based!!

Also cam,, even the best mages still lose to bear and fox all the time. They’re not just miles ahead of every other class,, but yes I agree they are a over powered. It’s just not game breaking to other classes as long as they know what they’re doing. Maybe ur just bad at pvp. :(

P.s. no I haven’t considered using hit% items bc no hit nerf has taken place yet. Maybe in the future tho :)

No disrespect but do you play any classes outside of mage? For what I have to witness in every level, they are ahead of every class by miles. By your logic I guess many birds, bears, and rhino are just bad at PvP overall right? You're talking about dropping mages hit to the low 80s. Read my previous post. I completely explained that my test dummy shelby who was int dex landed 4/5 and 3/5 Fires through blind which dropped him to 56 total Hit%. Again unless this is some phantom Hit% or EVERY MAGE PLAYER has god tier luck I find it hard to believe it's everyone else.

[Snacking]

No disrespect but do you play any classes outside of mage? For what I have to witness in every level, they are ahead of every class by miles. By your logic I guess many birds, bears, and rhino are just bad at PvP overall right? You're talking about dropping mages hit to the low 80s. Read my previous post. I completely explained that my test dummy shelby who was int dex landed 4/5 and 3/5 Fires through blind which dropped him to 56 total Hit%. Again unless this is some phantom Hit% or EVERY MAGE PLAYER has god tier luck I find it hard to believe it's everyone else.

Bro, that’s not a problem with the class, that’s a problem with the hit system. Every class besides mage/bear has a hit buff so it makes sense for those 2 classes to have decently high hit at low level no? Also yes I’ve played every single class at 27 with the best gear. Want a screenshot of my toons? Im positive on all but bird. As a bear or a fox I could easily wipe most mages. Like I said though, I agree mage is overpowered, but not miles ahead. Hit nerf is not the way to go.

[MageFFA]

Bro, that’s not a problem with the class, that’s a problem with the hit system. Every class besides mage/bear has a hit buff so it makes sense for those 2 classes to have decently high hit at low level no? Also yes I’ve played every single class at 27 with the best gear. Want a screenshot of my toons? Im positive on all but bird. As a bear or a fox I could easily wipe most mages. Like I said though, I agree mage is overpowered, but not miles ahead. Hit nerf is not the way to go.

I understand your reasoning but it makes no logical sense for a mage, a class that has low base hit anyways, to somehow not be effect by hit% debuffs if not just negate them as if they were never there. Hit% is one of the most important attributes in PvP along with ranges. Mages main important attacks are all 8-12 meters which makes kiting useless as heck. All it takes is a simple well placed drain to end most fights in 30-40 or a consecutive frost fire drain stacked 2-3 times in 15 to win also. Since 27 mages are already tanky enough now you have to work overtime. I've cbed and hsed mages in 27 which seems to never effect most. Heck I've seen plenty of bears get owned by 27 mages even when they have the advantage of procs and debuffs.

Hit% plays a major role in PvP and do remember mages could always use different gear to add on to their Hit%. There are 3 different Halloween sets and one of them adds hit so I can't comprehend how a 8% reduction is going to body the class.

My 27 Mage has 89% Hit with just Dex Halloween Helm, Armor, and hit face. No 3pc or amulet. 3pc adds 5 so I don't see how hit is a problem.

[burntoutdex]

Yeah hit is broken, but it shouldn’t be nerfed. We’re talking about balancing pvp, and ur wanting to take mages hit into the low 80’s making every fight even more LUCK BASED. It’s just gonna be a roll of the dice whether ur enemies attacks hit, and u just gotta pray urs do,, but yes let’s make pvp even more rng based!!
(Every class has a hit buff besides mage/bear, so it makes sense for them to have decently high hit at low level.)

Also cam,, even the best mages still lose to bear and fox all the time. They’re not just miles ahead of every other class,, but yes I agree they are over powered. Rhinos/birds just can’t hang with any class. It’s just not game breaking to the other main pvp classes at 22-27 as long as they know what they’re doing. Maybe ur just bad at pvp. :(

P.s. no I haven’t considered using hit% items bc no hit nerf has taken place yet. Maybe in the future tho :)

The thing is, nerfing hit% isn't even a nerf because hit% got boosted across the board somewhat recently... not sure if you remember.

All a nerf would be is to put it back to where it was in 2013.. i didn't see anyone complaining about missing skills then (not even yourself) - so surely it can't be as big a deal as you are making it out to be. Besides, dex mantles and OvG rings get you well over the hit% cap (86).

I agree that PvP is quite rng based as of right now, but that has nothing to do with hit% and rather the luck of getting a crit on your damage skills.

I also don't think i have once seen "the best mage[s]" lose to a bear at 27.. if that doesn't say anything then i really don't know what to tell you. Mages are miles ahead of everything in the game in twink brackets, and there really should be no need to argue about this - it's backed up by facts.

Also, you're correct, i am mediocre at PvP - but at least i can get a tournament off the ground.

[IiRose]

Although I’m not very active, as a 9 year mage main, I can agree that mages need a nerf in lower levels. I can sometimes one shot my opponents with a single drain or fire. As for endgame, int mages are much weaker than their twink counterpart, compared to other classes. So in that case, it’s not the skills but the set itself that makes dex mages so strong. (With this being said, I don’t think sets should be class specific. Balance of both sets and skills should be focused on.) However, I understand nerfing mages at lower levels is necessary. Unfortunately, it will inevitably affect endgame mages, so I’m not sure of the scaling that should occur.

Similarly, I must agree with some statements said by other players about birds. Birds should be overall buffed at lower levels. However, because of the endgame dex set, they excel at endgame. So their would have to be proper scaling again, similar to that of the mage class.

Since I’m talking about endgame I’ll put my 2 cents about what’s op. I would say the hierarchy of “opness” atleast at endgame 105 pvp (for the 3 main classes) would be
Dex mage
Dex bird
Dex bear
Int mage
Str Bear
I think these rankings, which are based on 1v1s against other players, are a result of the endgame sets/procs.

But I must warn you, these buffs and these nerfs should be more than just skills. The root problem of high dmg output (for ALL classes) at low levels are a result of the gear present at these levels (amulets, rings, Halloween, etc). The gear is scaled differently compared to skills. Fixing gear scaling in relation to their skills for all classes will provide flexibility for any class to play with any set, while also allowing for an even playing field in pvp.

-IiRose

[Snacking]

The thing is, nerfing hit% isn't even a nerf because hit% got boosted across the board somewhat recently... not sure if you remember.

All a nerf would be is to put it back to where it was in 2013.. i didn't see anyone complaining about missing skills then (not even yourself) - so surely it can't be as big a deal as you are making it out to be. Besides, dex mantles and OvG rings get you well over the hit% cap (86).

I agree that PvP is quite rng based as of right now, but that has nothing to do with hit% and rather the luck of getting a crit on your damage skills.

I also don't think i have once seen "the best mage[s]" lose to a bear at 27.. if that doesn't say anything then i really don't know what to tell you. Mages are miles ahead of everything in the game in twink brackets, and there really should be no need to argue about this - it's backed up by facts.

Also, you're correct, i am mediocre at PvP - but at least i can get a tournament off the ground.

“The rng in pvp has nothing to do with hit% rather than crit”
OKAY loooooool
So say I miss drain on an enemy mage and he hits his drain. He gains like 150 hp, does 150 damage and I lose that skill for another couple seconds and do no dmg. That puts him 300 hp ahead. If he crits drain he hits me for 300 and gains 300 hp but I miss drain that puts him 600 hp ahead.
HITTING SKILLS IS COMPLETE RNG IF U DONT HAVE 100% HIT
My question for you is-
My drain missed and he hit his, since it’s not rng based, what could I have done to prevent that?

Also pvp in 2013 is completely different than pvp now, not only hit % was different but bear as well as bird have both been nerfed since then. Not to mention 2 entirely new classes JUST being introduced close to the beginning of 2013. Pre-forgotten too? Bro ur bringing up a whole different era of pocket legends.

How does this guy have as big of voice as he does in the community?

Quality is actually making valid points tho,, I agree with most of the things you’ve said and I respect where ur coming from. I do feel like mage needs a nerf though because they ARE superior to other classes like I’ve said in the past, but once again, they are beatable. Good dex bears/str bears such as; itsmrn, stomp, bearmagebird, benjye, etc can shred thru mages. Good foxes can easily do the same. Birds and rhinos are kind of useless though, but they can’t really hang with any class not just mage, which is why they need a buff atm as well.
Once again though,
The problem with the hit/debuff lies in the hit system rather than the class itself.

I agree with rose though. I think in balancing low level, rather than changing the base stats / skills of the mage, tweaking the gear would be better. Nerfing enchants / rovgs would make pvp significantly better. Birds are still at a disadvantage until endgame though even if the buff/nerf becomes active, which is why I believe they should be buffed.

[Eatmyshred]

“The rng in pvp has nothing to do with hit% rather than crit”
OKAY loooooool
So say I miss drain on an enemy mage and he hits his drain. He gains like 150 hp, does 150 damage and I lose that skill for another couple seconds and do no dmg. That puts him 300 hp ahead. If he crits drain he hits me for 300 and gains 300 hp but I miss drain that puts him 600 hp ahead.
HITTING SKILLS IS COMPLETE RNG IF U DONT HAVE 100% HIT
My question for you is-
My drain missed and he hit his, since it’s not rng based, what could I have done to prevent that?

Also pvp in 2013 is completely different than pvp now, not only hit % was different but bear as well as bird have both been nerfed since then. Not to mention 2 entirely new classes JUST being introduced close to the beginning of 2013. Pre-forgotten too? Bro ur bringing up a whole different era of pocket legends.

How does this guy have as big of voice as he does in the community?

Quality is actually making valid points tho,, I agree with most of the things you’ve said and I respect where ur coming from. I do feel like mage needs a nerf though because they ARE superior to other classes like I’ve said in the past, but once again, they are beatable. Good dex bears/str bears such as; itsmrn, stomp, bearmagebird, benjye, etc can shred thru mages. Good foxes can easily do the same. Birds and rhinos are kind of useless though, but they can’t really hang with any class not just mage, which is why they need a buff atm as well.
Once again though,
The problem with the hit/debuff lies in the hit system rather than the class itself.

I agree with rose though. I think in balancing low level, rather than changing the base stats / skills of the mage, tweaking the gear would be better. Nerfing enchants / rovgs would make pvp significantly better. Birds are still at a disadvantage until endgame though even if the buff/nerf becomes active, which is why I believe they should be buffed.most mages are ez.

Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk

[Dolloway]

How does this guy have as big of voice as he does in the community?

Burningdex has such a big voice in this community because he genuinely cares and wants this game and community to succeed. Not a lot of people would take two weeks out of their time to create an analysis of PL in 2019, almost 9 years into the game and far beyond the game's most glorious days. And he did so selflessly, not out of self-interest but out of love and wanting the game to prosper. There are plenty of things that he mentioned in his thread concerning new players and other such ideas that will not benefit him at all if they are to be implemented into the game, but he still took the time to provide a detailed proposal so that the game can improve.

Burningdex has had a forums presence since December of 2011 when he made his original account:
https://www.spacetimestudios.com/member.php?64803-Burningdex

He has posted thousands of threads containing helpful information, countless guides, contests, sponsored tournaments, and sincere banter over a long period of time. He has a proven track record.

I believe his opinion and voice should be respected. Even if you disagree with him, there's no need to try to undermine his character with such remarks that seem to be coming from a place of anger. We all have love for this game. Let's try to build the community up instead of tear it down.

[Dolloway]

Now, to get this thread back on track and hopefully continue the conversation...

Your efforts to balance lower level pvp are admirable, Jay/Quality. Although I may not agree with everything you have proposed, I do respect your opinion.

Personally, I think this will have a ripple effect on other levels, particularly endgame. 105 Honor mages certainly do not need any of the nerfs you have described in this thread. The problem with Volta Talon Mages on the other hand lies within the set itself in my opinion. The set offers near invincibility when the proc is up and when the proc is down, mages can simply heal all the dmg that they take until the proc is back up once more. On top of this, dex mages do great dmg to enemies for having such tankiness.

As far as lower level pvp is concerned, I believe the extreme dmg problem started when arena modifiers were changed for levels 1-40 or something around that. Many complained about the tankiness of 35 mages when Cinco tested out a brief buff to the armor effectiveness arena modifier and when so many complained about long-lasting fights, the dmg modifier was increased.

What I think should be done is to first focus on the arena modifiers, perhaps tone down dmg a bit for arenas 1-40 and *maybe* buff armor effectiveness slightly. Of course, 30-40 should most certainly have the biggest dmg reduction arena modifier applied because of the rampant one shot kills. Arenas below that should have less of a dmg reduction modifier. All of this should be done during a testing period. Once these changes have been made, we can identify which pieces of gear or stats should be buffed for other classes such as birds and rhinos and which pieces of gear should be nerfed. If we do this, it won't create such a ripple effect on the rest of the pvp levels above and dmg will be toned down especially for arenas 30-40.

[Snacking]

Now, to get this thread back on track and hopefully continue the conversation...

Your efforts to balance lower level pvp are admirable, Jay/Quality. Although I may not agree with everything you have proposed, I do respect your opinion.

Personally, I think this will have a ripple effect on other levels, particularly endgame. 105 Honor mages certainly do not need any of the nerfs you have described in this thread. The problem with Volta Talon Mages on the other hand lies within the set itself in my opinion. The set offers near invincibility when the proc is up and when the proc is down, mages can simply heal all the dmg that they take until the proc is back up once more. On top of this, dex mages do great dmg to enemies for having such tankiness.

As far as lower level pvp is concerned, I believe the extreme dmg problem started when arena modifiers were changed for levels 1-40 or something around that. Many complained about the tankiness of 35 mages when Cinco tested out a brief buff to the armor effectiveness arena modifier and when so many complained about long-lasting fights, the dmg modifier was increased.

What I think should be done is to first focus on the arena modifiers, perhaps tone down dmg a bit for arenas 1-40 and *maybe* buff armor effectiveness slightly. Of course, 30-40 should most certainly have the biggest dmg reduction arena modifier applied because of the rampant one shot kills. Arenas below that should have less of a dmg reduction modifier. All of this should be done during a testing period. Once these changes have been made, we can identify which pieces of gear or stats should be buffed for other classes such as birds and rhinos and which pieces of gear should be nerfed. If we do this, it won't create such a ripple effect on the rest of the pvp levels above and dmg will be toned down especially for arenas 30-40.

I can get behind this.

[burntoutdex]

keep in mind, i'm for the most part strictly talking about twink levels here (1-40,) everything else is either inactive (literally no games,) ruined by Qtr stats, or is considered an endgame level.

Whilst we're on the topic of twink balance, i don't think it would be right to purely talk about twink mages. There are definitely other fundamentally broken things now included in the game's mechanics since recent additions have been made to the game.

Before i delve into what i think each class needs in terms of balance i would like to again reaffirm that the quickest and most effective solution to balance twink pvp is to do the following:

- remove enchantments entirely from PvP, OR make them give little to no benefit (see the L10 amulets)
- add the level restriction back to 3pc and 2pc rings
- undo the 'great nerf of 2013' along with the nerfs in 2016 in levels aforementioned (but i think a rhino's charge should be kept at 12m)
-including later nerfs to items such as Artisan Leathers
- fix heal missing on mages
- Only let halloween and forg items be used in PvE

Whilst a lot of you would disagree with this proposal, i challenge you to find anyone who twinked before these changes and ask them if they preferred PvP now or then, and for what reasons..

Now that that somewhat unrealistic proposal is out of the way i think it's a good time to talk about each class in terms of twink PvP and the current meta.

Obviously, the aforementioned changes to PvP must not also be implemented with what i suggest below, it must be one or the other. Preferably the one above, please :)

Keep in mind, changes sugegsted below are specific to that level range and are not to be stacked across levels.

Mages
With the current state of obtainable items in this game, mages are definitely the most dominant class across the board. Whilst i agree with what others have said, i do not think a blanket nerf to the class would be perfect; we must consider the fact that twinking and endgame are two entirely different metas.

As stated by Dolloway, the best (realistic) solution is to adjust level modifiers separately for each interval of 10 levels. For example, mages at 30-40 need much more of a damage nerf than they do at 10-20.

10-21
Mages at this level have had a lot of unique builds over the years.. from high frost, to high fire, to high lightning, and then back to high fire.

Since the addition of 3pc rings, lightning has almost entirely dropped out of this meta when in years gone by mages relied on its dps to kill everything. Now that 3pc rings exist it is a fairly simple matter to run 5fire and high drain to kite any opponent whilst healing off all damage taken to you.

For the most part, i think this is fine as mages have always had to rely on their kiting ability to play in this level bracket. However, i think the critical damage on fire and drain should be toned down so that if you land a crit drain & fire, your opponent doesnt end up having 200-300 hp left. (that is 20-40% hp depending on what class you are facing).

Perhaps a 10% reduction in damage to fire & drain?

22-29
Now that mages have a damage buff it is an entirely different story.

At this level, mages rely on 6BoM and 3-6 drain coupled with 4+ lightning to kill their opponents stupidly fast in one to two combos depending on what class you're facing.

Though, i do credit this to be almost entirely a product of the gear you have access to. If the gear is here to stay then some nerfs to the class need to be put in place.

I tried 27 mage again somewhat recently after not having touched it since early 2011. It now plays entirely differently because you really only need to hit drain once to win..

In earlier years i would have argued that bear or rhino was the best class, but now it is almost impossible to make a case for that - in the few months in which i tried 27 again i don't think i saw the best 27 mage(s) lose to either of those classes once (and that is not an exaggeration.)

This is not only due to their skill (of course,) but also because of the ridiculously high damage mages can output with 6BoM and a 3pc.

6BoV also makes mage the tankiest class at this level despite them being the support class. This makes it very difficult for other classes to ever kill mages because of the damage they can deal coupled with the armor they have.

I think the solutions that should be tried separately are:

- a reduction in crit given from BoM
- OR, a 15% reduction in light, fire, and drain's damage
-OR, a 10-15% decrease in BoV's armor buff

30-40
Oneshot Legends

I will save this for its own section as it needs to be spoken about as one entire thing.

bears

10-21
Bears used to use ironblood here to make them tanky enough to kill kite mages. Now that 3pc rings are available, the added armor means it is more effective to rely on taunt instead. Dodge, as usual, creates a meta that is more luck reliant than skill.

Taunt stacks, meaning it is possible to get 28 extra dodge before even equipping items. Once gear is equipped you can get up to 48 dodge.. This means that you will dodge almost half the attacks thrown at you whilst still being able to deal large amounts of damage because of rage.

I think a potential solution is to change taunt to be 6-8% dodge overall (3%-4% per stack) instead of 14% per stack. This brings a bear's max dodge down to between 25-27%... i personally think this is too much still so i will see what other people have to say once you read this.

22-29
Bear is quite balanced at this level. The only real buff they need is an indirect one, and is the aforementioned tweak to mages. Versus other classes they play fine and are balanced enough to not earn any complaints.

30-40

I'll save this for another section mentioned earlier.

Birds
10-19
I think the class is fine at this level, no need to adjust things here.

20-21
Fighting equal level opponents here as a bird is fine, it's just rare to fight L20's.

22-29
I'd sooner drink a whole carton of expired milk than play this level bird. It is abysmal, awful, and extremely underpowered.

A fully geared pure dex bird can't kill anything besides a pure str bear.

There are lots of changes i could suggest, but i think the most effective ones would include either of these (not all at once, just one or the other):

-increase break armor's proc from -26 at l6 to -40 (specific to Levels 22-29)
or
-25%-35% increase in base damage

30-40
blest shoot

i'll write more about this later on.

Rhinos
10-19
17 rhino used to be really good, but i don't really see any active ones now - i'm sure they would still perform fine now that they can have a 3pc equipped.

20-22
Hammer rhinos here perform fine against equal level opponents, no real need for changes here.

23-29
From what i've seen, this level doesn't really cater to rhinos. A lot of that could be due to the recent nerf to redemption's damage along with the other classes carrying too much damage.

The changes i would propose for this level are:
- undo the redemption nerf (add the 15% back from what was taken away)
- nerf mages as suggested above
30-40
what's a rhino?

i'll talk more about this in a later section.

Foxes
10-19
Foxes don't really work at all here, and i don't think any change would help them - they're just too squishy. It's been this way since their implementation (except for the first day, of course). I don't really see a way to change this now considering we haven't had a good suggestion for it yet.

20-21
Foxes are fine here if they fight equal levels.. no real need for changes.. they perhaps have a little too much damage here, but they are countered by stuns and a short evade buff so i think it's fine overall.

22-29
The nerf to mages will balance it out enough. Foxes already perform great here, so there's no reason to suggest a change.

30-40
nani, a fox? *dead*

To be discussed shortly.


30-40 Overall
To put it bluntly, i almost wouldn't be surprised if the logic behind this level's balance was: "if everything is stupidly OP, that's fair. Right?"

Having access to enchantments at this low a level is awful and has completely ruined this level bracket. I've made numerous posts about this along with many others who all agree that this level is completely unbalanced.

A suggestion by Quality is to allow amulets to make a set bonus of the corresponding items..
Example:

Sniper's Dead-Eye Derby +
Sniper's Bayou Bow +
Sniper's Croc Scale Leather +
Snipers Vixus Amulet

The set bonuses that these sets could give would help balance out the stats that are wildly out of proportion at this level. Though, i'm not sure exactly what they could be as of yet.

Another idea is to add Shivering, Iceberg, and Brain Freeze helmets that can be farmed at A Hidden Ice Cave that allow us to complete the set. We've been wanting these for years and i really don't see why they cannot get added. The set bonuses for these also could potentially go a long way to help balancing this level range if enchantments are toned down.

If i was to sum up why 30-40 was broken it would be this:

As of right now, mages are able to hit everything for 650+ quite consistently (refer here (https://imgur.com/gallery/LWUupjd)).

Birds can kill everything except for a 60armor mage in 4skills or less (including 40bears) if they haven't died in an instant.

Bears bacon stamp EVEYRTHING

Foxes kill everything as soon as you step into 12m but are squishy (as it should be).

Rhinos are nonexistent.

The best approach to tackling balance at L30-40 is to make the enchantment bonuses PvE only or make the stats given negligible (on par with the L10 amulets).

I don't think the suggested changes in the original post can happen without also adjusting birds, bears, and foxes because without doing that, other classes will be just as overpowered.

If enchantments, 3pc, and bling rings are not removed, i propose the following changes be put in place:

mages
- the suggested changes in original post

bears
- the taunt nerf as above
- 15%-25% reduction in smash combo damage

birds
-10%-15% increase in base crit chance
-maybe a 5% decrease in damage to compensate for an increase in crit chance

foxes
- As suggested by Walie: let howl be the unstun instead of evade so that foxes aren't forced to save their buff until after ice.

rhinos
- Remove the redemption nerf
- there are probably other adjustments to make to this class, but i'm not sure what they could be, i don't play enough rhino.