The future of PL ... long term recommendations; my most important post for this year [Archive]

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WhoIsThis

12-08-2011, 10:35 PM

Introduction

To begin with, I know that there have been others that have made other similar threads. My goal is to summarize the list of grievances and to make recommendations. I would like this kept in the General Discussion for now. I intend for this to be the most important post that I have ever made since I joined the forums, so please keep this civil readers (I desperately wish to avoid this being locked, moved, or to turn this into a flame war). The other thing I would like to say is that if you ignore every other post that I make, I would like this one to have the most weight. This will also be the first post that I at some point plan on blogging.

Recently, there have been trends in PL that have been ... controversial. Perhaps the last time that the PL was so controversial was the introduction of the Global Cooldown System which heavily split the community in two, resulted in heavy flaming, and a variety of other unpleasant effects. I am also a bit troubled at the long term direction that things have been going. There has been the perception that the developers have been less receptive to feedback overall (and in my opinion, not without justification).

I have played several MMOs before, and I can tell the long term trends. Were this any other MMO, I would not have bothered to have posted this and left quietly. I have known several people that have quit out of frustration with the direction of the game, most prominently (and those of you who are new to the forums will not know him), a player known as "Royce", who had disagreements with the random drop packs and the quality of the forums themselves.

I will split this into a 2 part post for readability purposes.

Today

The typical PL character looks something like this (this is my main, circa December 2011):
3512

Many players have spent varying amounts of platinum and have put varying amounts of time into the game.

Lately however, there has been a decline in the satisfaction of players, particularly after the fall of 2011.

Nuri's Hallows

Ever since the introduction of Nuri's Hallows, there has been the perception that the developers have been more profit rather than quality of content driven.

Problems
For the most part, I found Nuri's Hallows to be somewhat underwhelming. There was nothing truly new in a sense. The last time I was disappointed was the introduction of the Shadow Caves. I felt that it was like Alien Underground, with the monsters of Alien Oasis (the Djinn, Shadow Monsters, and the like) with nothing truly new that only hit hard. I think that many others got similar motivation in Nuri:

1. The environment did not look "new"; it looked like the old Forest backgrounds in Symphony, old bog backgrounds, etc. Madness looked like Alien Oasis. The others, such as Lion's Den looked new enough.

2. The monsters were not new in the case of Symphony; they said the same things as before

3. They just hit harder, with nothing more interesting (ex: in Lost Expedition, monsters could freeze you)

4. The bosses said the same things that prior bosses in the Sewers (ex: Bandit King and Queen, Goblin King, etc) said; and King Mynas was reused for the Snake Charmer

5. There was less creativity overall it seemed

Contrast this with the Sewers, which had relatively new content, an acceptable difficulty level, and challenges for the boss. Up until 5 months in, people were not bored. The only good thing about it was that the Demonic sets looked cool. The custom, enchanted, and fortified by contrast looked plain, especially when one compared to their predecessors (void, rift, cosmos) which looked unique.

Demonic Glyph
Yet the demonic itself caused much controversy. I created a thread, recommending that people could craft their sets for platinum. The reaction from those that spent money was instantly negative and resulted in a flame war. I asked a friend of mine to tell me how much he spent to finish his demonic obedience dex set (he purchased it on the first day). He said ~15 million gold and 90 plat. What is astounding is that it was just the bow, helm, and leather. He would have had to spend more if he wanted the dagger and wing (which he did not). I suppose int mages are at a drawback here - they may need the staff, wand, and bracer. This also means that they need to spend more platinum than dex builds who just need 3 pieces.

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?38036-Controversial-Idea-Make-the-remaining-demonic-crafting-components-buyable-with-plat

He was indifferent to the fact that prices dropped to 9 million shortly, but others were very protective of their investment. The point is that it illustrated the growing rich-poor gap in PL and resulted in a flame war. Unfortunately some of the posts in the thread above were deleted. Nonetheless, the gist of it is clear. It took months for many to get the demonic, by which point the depreciation was at a much faster rate. The poorer players had envy of the rich, while many of the wealthy resented how fast their demonic sets declined in value.

I think that for demonic, STS made it too hard to obtain. The many threads complaining about this are a testament to that. It was a chore, not an accomplishment. Fortunately, this was rectified with the latest level, Mount Fang.

The Elixir Controversy
However, the biggest controversy that resulted was the difficulty level. Combined with the aggressive promotion of elixirs that STS had made (free dailies, the placement of Vinnie the Vendor, etc), it led to the perception that all that mattered was platinum. At first, I defended STS, but when I realized that in a typical PUG, this game was approaching unplayable, I found myself frustrated.

Some of the oldies told me that the last time they recalled this level of difficulty was what they called the "pre-nerf" AO3 days. I have not been around long enough to know what that was like, so I am forced to take their word for it.

The point is that the game for many was extremely difficult without elixirs. A standard Bandit Boy Hideout run in the Sewers could be completed in 5-6 minutes, and under 4 minutes with a proficient team. Catacombs and other more difficult levels were also not as long. Without elixirs, the run length (I believe STS formally calls this the "rate of content consumption") was several times that of others, particularly for Symphony, with only Nuri's Madness being of comparable length.

Needless to say, STS made a significant windfall over this. But the bigger problem is that of lost goodwill. A lot of players no longer view STS as benevolent as before. Most of course understand that STS is a business, but they felt that things had gone too far.

In frustration, I introduced a guide for players:

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?37140-Thoughts-and-observations-about-level-cap-since-the-update

Seeing how few people read it, I will not be introducing a guide for Fang.

Mount Fang

Mount Fang relieved few of the problems that Nuri had, but worsened a few.

Observations

Timing - Earlier than Expected

The first problem that occurred was the timing of the release. The level cap was supposed to have been raised on the 24th of November. When it came sooner, several players complained as they had (barely) missed the cap. They were perhaps 0-30k of xp from the cap and had originally been timing for a release on the 24th. They missed their chance at the vanity shield.

For PvP Balance, I have voiced some ideas:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?43299-Yet-another-%28but-hopefully-more-insightful%29-thread-on-the-COP-Shield-and-now-Armor

For those that are in this position though ... I'm at a loss on what to say. I thought it was going to be on the 24th as well. I think that the crown of persistence and vanity clothes should give the same set bonus as crown and shield. I also recommend that STS give more warning if they intend to do this in the future. People ... be advised, whenever there's a cap rise, get to the elite if you want it ASAP.

The Release

After the release came, there were other problems:

1. The background again: Nothing original - I though for a moment that I was playing in Balefort Castle only with harder monsters. Little things like this imply a lack of effort, especially combined with how rapidly the dungeon was released (3 months, although the 6 months of Sewers was mainly due to the bottleneck by SL).

2. The monsters hit less hard relative to the new equipment, but they had an insane amount of hp. Eyeballing it, I'd estimate 7-9 thousand hp. A standard non-elixir run requires for a bird 50-100 pots (depending on what level), although it can be less than 25 with a good bear (which are unfortunately in short supply and the bear will need to consume a lot of potions as well). This was huge. It worsened the perception that STS wanted platinum elixirs. This also worsened the fact that the levels would take a long time without elixirs.

3. Some people found the equipment ugly looking. On one hand, I do applaud STS for making the equipment original (the vampire theme), on the other hand it did not look truly "end game".

4. Some people are unhappy with PvP balance - in particular, dex gear needs a buff (preferably to crit).

Things Resolved

It is easier to get the end game gear now than it was in Nuri. This is a good thing. It means that the rich-poor gap has been somewhat narrowed. The introduction of the daily quests was also a step in the right direction. I do not understand why similar quests were not present in Nuri - they were there in the Sewers for crafting materials. For end game equipment to be optimal, it needs to be hard enough to seem like an achievement, but at the same time, not so hard as to divide the community and cause the controversy that it did.

The mobs do not hit as hard (which I said earlier), which makes the game somewhat more playable than Nuri. A competent group of players at level 60 with level 60 gear should be able to complete the level. However, this was largely negated by the volume of health the mobs had. It takes 2 nature strikes from a pure int mage with a staff to wipe out the mobs. Few PUGs have players that have the good enough timing to execute this successfully.

However, the big problems introduced in Nuri still remain.

The Big Problem

The big problem though still remains. There is the perception that STS has been milking people of platinum too hard while players do not feel as if they are getting their money's worth. I have asked some players in my guild. Apparently I am cheap by comparison. To date, I have purchased "only" 4,800 platinum. Others have spent $500 - $1,000 USD on the game.

I think that the biggest problem is that STS is going to make a windfall in the short run, but lose customers in the long run due to frustration.

I have seen similar trends in other MMOs.

In order for a game to succeed, 2 things need to happen:

1. STS must make enough money in order for its developers to enjoy a good living and to be able to afford high quality content

2. The players must feel as if they are getting their money's worth. Increasingly, #2 is in question.

I suspect that for a game like this, the initial cost of developing the game engine (which takes years) is the most expensive, and then the marginal costs of releasing new dungeons declines with time. However, server costs should increase as more players come in, although this should be more than offset by the increased platinum sales. If this is not true, please disclose. Transparency on these matters is always welcomed.

Part 2 will go on about my recommendations on how to fix this.

WhoIsThis

12-08-2011, 10:35 PM

The PL Community

There are 4 basic types of PL Players. Let me Split them into 2 categories first.

PvE Players

1. Casual players. They may play PvP for a bit, but by far their main attraction is PvE. They don't spend a lot of time on PL, may or may not reach level cap. Only a portion will buy platinum. The main spine was made free in an attempt to get more of this type of player.

2. Hardcore PvE players. They may have experienced PvP, but do not like it, usually due to their poor performance or bad experiences. They spend a lot of time playing PvE and are among the richest players in the game. They can be a good source of revenue, with many consuming hundreds of plat (sometimes thousands) per month in elixirs, vanity, and other items. They may have serval alts. There are also many aggressive merchants in this category. A subcategory are a handful that do PvP, but mainly PvE.

PvP Players

3. Twinkers: They are hardcore PvPers. They usually have multiple twinks and spend lavishly per character, trying to get the perfect "twink". They play at many different levels and love what they do. Their only recent complaint has been the decline of twinking, which has seen a rise of rushers and sore losers.

4. Level Cap PvPers: I myself am in this category. They are usually the first to get to the level cap. Level cap PvP is why they exist. Money only matters as an end to get the best equipment. At each level cap, they get their quickly, get the end game equipment, and basically spend 80%+ of their time (some 100%) in PvP. If they did not have to, many would spend little or even no time in PvE.

Note that the first 3 people since the elite caps were introduced to reach them were:

Thelonercher ("Mike")
Dolloway
AlwaysDTF

All of them are hardcore PvP players. They want to reach the cap and go PvP not drag on in the world of PvE.

Categories 2-4 are a reliable source of revenue. Category 1 - only a percentage will become hardcore, at which point, they ultimately end up in one of those categories. Perhaps research should be done in how to make a higher proportion of category 1s into 2-4. By making more players around, there should be more money for higher quality content and the costs can be reduced (ex: less platinum for certain things) because they are now spread around a larger player base, which in turn attracts more people.

Recommendations

To begin with, it's important to recognize that STS is a for profit business (which many players do not). At the same time, I feel that STS has put a decreasing importance on each player's loyalty, perhaps due to the influx of new players.

It is also important to recognize that players that play more hours or spend platinum will have an advantage over those that do not play as much or spend as much. The important thing (which STS is now failing in my opinion) is to NOT force everyone to spend a lot of platinum, while making sure that people who do spend feel satisfied.

PvE Runs
With a growing number of people disenchanted about elixirs, there needs to be 3 categories of games. Basically, whenever a player hosts a game, I feel that they should be able to select 3 categories:

1. Default Category: People with or without elixirs can enter. This is like before.

2. Combo Only: Only 2x, 3x, and 4x combo players may enter. This is to prevent leeching and because as paying customers, they are entitled to their own games (think of it like a "first class" on a ship or airplane kind of thing). They want fast runs and are either levelling to the cap or are hardcore farmers. This is also because there may not be enough players on an elixir for a private game.

3. No Platinum Elixir: There is a growing number of people that lament the direction that this game is going. They are unhappy with the elixirs. In this category, people who buy anything other than a luck elixir for platinum are not permitted. People in this category may still purchase gold elixirs. I recommend for this category, that players here become a focus group for STS to do market research to see how they may please them in a manner that encourages them to spend platinum if STS wishes.

Another reason why this category is important is for players that wish for a challenge. Having a person jump in with a 4X ruins this.

Finally, this category will allow players that do not use a lot of plat elixirs to not feel marginalized and obligated to "pot up". In the future, they may spend more.

For those interested, I have completed a guide on how to optimize for 4X elixirs and to get the most "bang for buck".
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?37151-Guide-How-to-use-elixirs-effectively-in-a-group

On that note, it takes under 2 hours to get from level 61 to 65 and then another 12 hours for level 65 to 66, assuming you are in a good party with all 4X users and follow my guide. Good teams with all damage dealers may be able to do this in under 12 hours - remember that time is money with elixirs.

Rate of Cap Rises

As it turns out, people seem to like having slower cap rises. The Sewers lasted for 6 months. Why? SL bottlenecked it. By contrast, there are feelings of unhappiness from many players when the cap is raised to quickly. Why?

1. It makes the elite cap unreachable without platinum for busier people. I know that in the short run, this may seem desirable for STS, but in the long run, it is not good at all - people will get fed up and leave.

2. It amplifies the rich - poor gap. Each time a new dungeon is released, it forces everyone to level (when cap is raised) and for the hardcore, to get new items (due to the rise in difficulty).

3. It increases the perception that the game is all about platinum now. Every time, PvP players will want to use elixirs to get to the cap.

4. Level Cap PvP players (category 4) are at a huge disadvantage compared to their twinking and PvE brethren. PvP does not pay money. It means that they must get to the cap and get the money needed to buy the sets. Most PvP players would not PvE if they did not have to. This means for them, a second windfall is that they will often have to choose the easier crafting. At 30 plat, this means 150 plat or more. Not a problem for PvE players (who are rich from their farming) and twinking (who do not need to level with a new cap, although it may open up new categories for twinking, which usually entails a new character).

5. The quality of the new levels has not been up to par, and they do not compare favourably with AO3 or the Sewers, for reasons I have discussed earlier.

I recommend that the level cap be raised once every 4-6 months, based on player feedback. Humania should not be released until Q2 2012 for this reason. See how many people are "ready" for it by making threads on the forums.

The new level, Humania needs to be as polished as possible.

Quality of New Caps

The quality of the new caps must be epic. Alien Oasis 3 was considered epic for its time, although its difficulty was criticized and resulted in the nerf, people ultimately remembered it fondly.

1. The backgrounds must be truly unique. There are plenty of ideas. Underwater, lava, ice, middle ages factory, perhaps an Asian theme (ex: Ancient China now that Ancient Egypt has been done), etc.

2. The mobs should be original. What they say should be original. Perhaps even how they attack should be original. They should reflect the background theme (ex: look at Alien Oasis where the Djinn, Mummies, and Aliens reflect the desert theme or the monsters of Frozen Nightmare or the slime creatures in the Catacombs). This was broken in the Symphony.

3. Bosses need to be be unique and epic. For the most part, STS has gotten this one right. However, they should say original text. They need to be original too. (ex: King Mynas model reused as "Snake Charmer" in Nuri).

4. Equipment must look "cool" and be reflective of the theme. End game gear must look like it is worth getting and must be distinct from lower level gear (one of the failures of the Sewers).

5. For reasons discussed earlier, the ultimate end game pinks should not be too hard to get. The difficulty level of Mount Fang is fine - keep it and make sure that there are daily quests.

6. The difficulty should be balanced. On one hand, it should be somewhat harder than the prior level. On the other hand, it must be playable without elixirs. At the same time, there needs to be some incentive to get elixirs. This is the biggest challenge.

7. Elite level rewards should remain and they should offer something unique. I am disappointed at the rather uninspired look of the mage and bird vanity cloths (they look like mega mage and raid roach). The vanity shield could also look "cooler". One thing the Sewers did right was make the helmet look unique.

8. New obstacles. For example, perhaps more mobs should debuff. The vents of the Sewers (and earlier levels), along with the traps in Lion's Den were an example of an "obstacle". Perhaps things like a lava trap (for the lava theme I suggested) could be made. The dropping weights from Gustav is another good example. Monsters too should be given unique abilities.

To date, what we have are 3 generic monsters:

A. A melee monster; typical grunt
B. An archer; usually more dangerous than the melee guy
C. A healer or mage

Variants have been made, such as the slime creatures. We need to see more unique monsters and more unique obstacles.

9. Incentives to keep playing. The daily quests are a good example. We need more incentives to keep playing and more rewards. Remember - the more people play, the more they spend plat.

10. It is important that PvP be balanced. No single class of equipment should be overpowered or underpowered. I feel that dex in Mount Fang as I said earlier needed a buff. For a further discussion on what ideal equipment is, here is a somewhat dated, but still useful guide. I recommend that all future equipment follow this, not just for PvP balance, but also because PvE difficulty will only increase:

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?42435-Towards-the-perfect-equipment-a-commentary-and-observations-from-the-past

Quality is more important than how often the cap is raised. Good quality means good replayability, which means a satisfied customer and not one that looks forward to the next cap because the current dungeon was underwhelming.

New optional things to get with platinum

The vanity pets were a movement in the right direction. They need to be completely optional (no stats), but cool enough for people to buy.

Thoughts:

1. Must have more variety of vanity pets

2. Distinction between high end and low end pets (bats vs turkeys/balloon, but more variety needed)

3. Should be not be annoying (bats in particular can be distracting)

4. Able to identify whose vanity it was (bats fly all over the place; need one big bat to circle the player)

5. Should not have stats to make it optional

There can be other ideas in this direction. The important thing is that they are completely optional, but cool enough to be worth buying. They should have no effect in game. Perhaps something like a personal space would by cool. I'm sure there are other ideas.

Incentives to spend

The deal of the day was a step in the right direction. However, I feel that there needs to be more for players in order to give them an incentive.

I am open to the following ideas:

1. Packaged deals - the ability to unlock everything at a discount, buy every ring, etc.

2. Unlimited deals (ex: if I were to pay x number of platinum, I could get 1 free respec per week for the indefinite future)

Monthly Subscription?
Another idea is to open up an optional monthly subscription. This would alleviate the platinum fears on elixirs.

Say, for $15 or $20 USD a month (give a discount for an annual subscription, say $150 or $200), a player has 4x elixirs whenever they enter a dungeon and a few other perks (need good incentives for this to happen). Combined with the fact that dungeons are now segregated, we should see:

1. More players willing to pay up, which should offset the massive amounts that individuals have spent

2. No obligation to pay up due to the segregation system I proposed

Perhaps a perk could be something like a discount on all platinum purchases. For example, if I buy this subscription and I buy a vanity, I get x% off.

This would alleviate the massive perception that STS only cares about platinum elixirs - people can farm unlimited now. Buyers would also need an option to "turn off" the elixirs when they wanted a challenge (not a loss as they already paid for this service anyways).

The goal should be to get a large and loyal subscriber base.

Again, I must emphasize that this is optional and that nobody should ever feel that they have to spend. In the long run, this will lead to more subscribers. Ensure that other incentives are given to give people a good reason for signing up and make sure that people who do sign up feel that they get their money's worth.

Completely new things to address the boredom

There has been increasing boredom of the builds. Skill combos are now uniform. If nothing happens at 71, we will basically be able to put 6 points in all but 1 skill. For now I recommend the following.

On the next level cap:

1. All non-buff skills should be raised to a maximum of 8 points per skill

2. Buffs for bear (rage, taunt, evade), bird (evasion, focus), and mage (blessings of might/vitaility) should remain at 6 points. This is prevent overreliance on buffs.

3. Points should give a percentage rather than an fixed value. For example, at maximum, rage gives 60 more damage. This is HUGE at low levels, but gets less important as levels go up. Percentages work better. Same with points. Example - blast shot. The first point gives the basic skill. The next point gives a percentage on top of that skill and so on. This will favor pure builds somewhat (intended because pure builds are at a disadvantage now with the new dual spec system). Base stats should offer the most skill damage. For bear, it should be adjusted so that str gives more than dex in skill damage.

A fundamental new skill system could be made. There could be branching or 4 new skills, of which 12 can be picked, or perhaps as many as 20. They should be all comparable in power and not lead to OP combinations (must test).

The need for a PvP reward system

After careful consideration, I have come to the conclusion that PvP players are at a huge disadvantage to their PvE counterparts. An hour of PvP brings satisfaction (if you weren't rushed or met a bad player anyways), but little else.

First, the goal should be to get more PvP players. Second, there needs to be an incentive to PvP. At the same time, PvP should remain optional. Out of fairness for PvP players though, if PvE players don't have to PvP, then why should PvP players be forced to PvE when many clearly dislike it?

I think that the reward for PvP should be either money or drops. An example - you get a drop every time you get a kill or score a goal (with a better chance in 5v5 CTF than 3v3). The rewards should be roughly equal to the amount of time that you spend in PvE. That is, an hour of PvP and an hour of PvE will give you roughly the same chance of getting say, an end game pink. A mechanism needs to be put in place for boosting. This would need a bit of tweaking though to prevent abuse from kill boosters (probably see if the target player is doing anything; if the target player has not used skills 3 times in a row; or based on their IP address, they are from the same location, something is up). More tweaking would be needed to ensure that the drop rates are fair and that prices are not affected. Remember that end game sets need to be tough enough to be a challenge, but not too tough to get.

This is a problem for level cap in particular, who need money to get the end game sets and go back to PvP.

I have also recommended new maps for PvP - there should be new maps every few months:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?44131-Can-we-have-some-new-PvP-Maps

New maps should occur roughly as often for PvP as level cap increases in PvE - to spice things up.

Greater developer involvement

One of the great things about PL in the early days was that the developers frequently were involved and posted in most of the threads. I feel that the developers overall have become more detached. It is true that the players deserve some of the blame. The quality of the newer generation of players has declined and you can see the decline in useful posts. Nonetheless, greater developer involvement would be a huge asset. It would allow the developers to see what the players wanted, what they feel affects them, and perhaps gain insights into how to get more platinum sales. Furthermore, it gives the feeling that customers are valued.

Forum Programs
The introduction of the GOA and other programs has led to disagreements on who should be selected and why. I think at this point, the GoA should just be scrapped and every GoA just become a regular member once more. The quality of GoAs has declined with each generation and selections appear arbitrary at times.

Who gets the AoA and the like should also be watched carefully. I recommend little or no perks for the AoA program. Otherwise, people will join for the perks, just as the GoA was an aspired title for the shield. Pick people who do it out of passion, not for perks.

Other Concerns
I am not sure what to do about these:

1. The quality of the average player seems to have seriously declined; many PUGs cannot finish a Mount Fang level, and sometimes, even with 3 people on elixirs, there can be a group wipe

2. The quality of the forums have declined, with more flame posts

Part of the reason that this is happening is that the first generation of players was dedicated. Eventually, the game got more popular and this led to the creation of the "Mynas Gen". The expansion into Android brought a lot of good players and also players that did not have a clue what they were doing. I suspect that the player skill level is similar between the 2 platforms now that the game has been on Android for over a year. Another problem may be that there are more younger players now, many of whom this is their first forum.

At the same time, now that the game is free (main spine anyways), there may be players who have come in with the feeling that they have nothing to lose as they did not spend platinum. Either way, the skill level has declined. Power leveling was considered a culprit and the blocking of low levels was a good solution (although to be honest, I think that alts from an established player should be allowed), but it evidently was only a small part of the problem.

I am open to suggestions on this matter. For now, I recommend greater enforcement and a willingness to use temporary bans. It's a far from perfect solution though.

In game, I am not sure how to improve the quality of player. There are for example, plenty of mages at level 65 that don't heal, bears that don't know how to use stomp, birds that refuse to do a lot of damage to bosses, etc. Nonetheless, it is a serious issue. It worsens the problem earlier - that people perceive the game as unplayable without elixirs. The culprit may be their own lack of skill, but they will blame the developers for it.

In an attempt to improve the quality of player, I have made a fairly comprehensive guide on game mechanics that I recommend newer player's read:

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?28825-The-general-guide-on-end-game-team-mechanics

For players who would like to know how to fight bosses correctly, I have also made this:

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?40467-Mini-Guide-Aggro-Priority-Order-when-fighting-bosses

These guides will help you understand the game mechanics better. I also recommend reading up Physiologic's guides on birds, Ellyidol's bear guides, and the outdated, but still useful Enchantress Class Headquarters by Pharcyde for more class specific information.

Conclusions

Today, STS is making quite a bit on platinum. However, many players have voiced their dissatisfaction. This is good in the short run, but bad in the long run.

We could see a larger group of disillusioned players leave at some point. The new caps have offered little creativity and an increase in difficulty that many perceive are nothing more than a ploy to get more plat. Players do not feel that they are getting their money's worth, while the older players look at the "good old days" more so than ever before. I think that a ton of goodwill has been destroyed since Nuri has come out.

Failing to act will lead to the long term decline in reputation and perhaps revenue of PL. It has happened before to other MMOs.

Furthermore, if a success is made, then we could see other benefits. Players will be much more willing for example to recommend PL to their friends and STS will continue to enjoy a good reputation among gamers. Today in the PC world, many big companies like EA and Activision are disliked for "milking" customers through DLC, restrictive DRM, and other questionable business practices. STS so far has enjoyed a relatively good, but now declining reputation.

I will end this on an optimistic note. I think that STS has built a solid foundation so far, and I hope that these suggestions are considered and many implemented for a enjoyable game in the future.

Catwoman

12-08-2011, 10:36 PM

Exactly spoken very well :)

Redbridge

12-08-2011, 10:43 PM

A very good read. One of the best written recent posts I've seen. Sweet

Hankomachos

12-08-2011, 10:53 PM

LOve it. :) Well said.

Decur

12-08-2011, 11:41 PM

Wow!! I want to commend you on a well thought out and wonderfully laid out post with excellent points.

I agree with all your observations. In my opinion, your recommendations seem just about perfect. Personally, I can't think of anything more that could improve it... I look forward to reading more.

WhoIsThis

12-09-2011, 12:44 AM

Okay ... I think that is everything I intended to write on this matter. It remains to be seen how the community receives it.

Edit:

This has now been entered into my blog.

Zeus

12-09-2011, 01:52 AM

WhoIsThis

12-09-2011, 02:07 AM

WhoisThis, thank you very much for a thread that I have never had the courage to post. I am looking at the benefits between playing a PC MMO vs a Mobile MMO like SL and PL. The reason why I continue to endorse STS instead of jumping onto WoW and other MMOs is that I still have faith that they can turn it around. Any reprieve on this would be incredibly welcome, as players are not used to spending this much money on games, especially MMOs.

Right now, I haven't seen any PC MMOs that have anything to offer that PL or SL doesn't.

Thoughts:

1. Most PC games tend to have more elaborate game mechanics. This can be a good and bad thing. Good thing in that it encourages variety. Bad in that certain combos require very hardcore playing and can cause more balance problems.

2. There are 2 distinct models for PC: F2P (which really aren't "Free"; typically you have to pay for stuff - not unlike PL, but I'd be careful; there are some questionable ones online) and P2P (typically a monthly fee like WoW)

3. Classes tend to be much more varied - again hinting at the problem in 1, although it can be an advantage too

4. So far, STS has been among the best dev teams in terms of responsiveness that I have seen among MMOs; surprisingly important for many reasons (bugs, balance, experience)

5. Most MMOs seem to suffer from the problems I hinted. Bad PUGs, unfriendly PvP experience, etc. FPS games are like that as well. Interestingly enough, the most welcoming games I have seen are generally indie multiplayer games.

I'd say for now, STS has one of the best MMOs around ... barring a further decline, it's well worth staying.

MightyMicah

12-09-2011, 02:24 AM

Has anyone sent this link to a dev? We should. Whoisthis, not that it means anything but, my respect for you just went up. ALOT. You did an excellant job of getting to the core problems and issues that have risen. Very nice.

mafiainc42

12-09-2011, 02:39 AM

@whoisthis I have alpha and beta tested several Mmorpg games biggest bein ffxl, Kudos to u, this is by far one of thee best posts in any mmo forum I have ever read. One hella of a job..

Ellyidol

12-09-2011, 05:22 AM

Indeed your most important, and IMO best, post yet. Fully agree on all points.

I also commend you for seeing the bigger and long-term picture; arguably more important than the short-term, IMO.

If I could just add as well, I miss the addition of more systems and features. More than just a new campaign bringing new maps, gear, monsters, levels, etc, I also miss the introduction of stuff like the CS, crafting, guilds (though this was new, it was almost "expected"). You get my point :)

Again, kudos Elf. Very well said and an awesome read.

Zaltiar

12-09-2011, 06:00 AM

Wow, I have to say, that was one hell of a good read. Very thorough and great points. I do hope a dev sees this post :)
Props to you WhoIsThis!

zuesmirza

12-09-2011, 06:51 AM

Great work bud.. DEVS should read it..

Xazic

12-09-2011, 07:01 AM

Excellent points, i pretty much agree on every single thing recalled on this thread. Really hope devs see this AND take the action needed...

Kelstrick

12-09-2011, 07:08 AM

Great post! Extremely well thought out and written on a sensitive topic that could have easily become an emotional rant!

One item for consideration is creating new end game gear quests similar to the Mystery & Cyber quests in AO to your new content or boredom section. I see this as a positive as:

1) it addresses the rich/poor gap, in that a casual player can earn quality gear (especially now that the experience curve has been reduced leading to less time to earn gold as a player climbs the ladder to end game)
2) it gives collectors something to grind for
3) it gives STS the opportunity to sell a player an elixir, vanity, etc... as the player may log in more often in order to complete the quest and obtain his/her next piece of gear.

Or instead of creating a whole new set of gear, perhaps the ability to complete a series of quests which would allow you to "craft" or "upgrade" an old set. (One of the coolest things I saw in Fang was a 4x elixir user in Shadow gear. Made me really miss those old looks!)

Thanks again for such a righteous post and for taking time to consider my recommendation.

JaytB

12-09-2011, 07:45 AM

I think you expressed what many of us feel, and provided valuable points on how to make it better.

I sure hope STS is taking notes from your post.

Great post!

WhoIsThis

12-09-2011, 08:16 AM

Rare

12-09-2011, 09:00 AM

...Others have spent $500 - $1,000 USD on the game.

Good lord!!!

Snakespeare

12-09-2011, 10:27 AM

This is a great example of how to provide feedback without drama. I bet G has read it 2 or 3 times already.

I don't agree on all points, but it is true that I don't like PvP so I see the game from a different point of view. The few times I went to PvP the other players were ... well ... darn I wish I could swear here ... let's just say they were rude. I don't know why anyone would actually seek such an experience. I play games for fun. So, in my opinion, this game started going downhill with the introduction of PvP. Since then, little by little, I have had to learn to accept that change happens here and we either find a way to have fun our own way, or go on to a different game. That's kind of an odd perspective for someone who has had as many suggestions accepted as I have, but I have also seen suggestions implemented then a half year later some other devs circumvents the change. (For instance, the anti-power-levelling movement finally succeeded but eventually they brought it back for plat.) And... I am 55 years old, and if I hadn't learned to accept change by now I would be in a constant struggle with reality.

I think the relaxed XP requirements help to offset some of the difficulty factors for people who don't use plat elixirs. In AO2 we could get 2x xp elixirs for 1500 and the mobs plus drop liquidation would come out to about 1500 gp, so there was a grind. And that was OK because, even though it was boring and repetitive, you could actually calculate how long it would take and dedicate the necessary time. But as things went on, the grind took over. That put them in a position to need to present alternatives to grinding.

The devs all came here from developing different games, but that just meant that they knew how to WRITE games, not how to MAINTAIN and EXPAND games. This they have had to learn by the school of hard knocks. And they have learned a lot! Just look at how much more balanced SL was from the start. But in PL they are in a phase where they need to create balance at higher levels. They need to make the high levels so that they are not just about grinding and rewarding the most hardcore grinders. They are not done. The problem isn't solved. They have reduced the huge xp needed, and made some level-anywhere elixirs. They are going to watch and play and learn and we will no doubt see other changes that try to address this.

Just one other thing, then I will re-read and maybe post again. Royce was highly disappointed when they didn't create new skills. They just bumped the max level to 6. He said before they did it, in chat, that if that was their solution, that would end it for him. He and others wrote detailed suggestions for new skills. He might have even stayed if they allowed us to add cross-skills from other classes after a certain level. But just increasing the max to 6 was disheartening to him. But you know, he just went on to another game where the devs were practically non-existent. So how could he have been happy there? I'll never get it. But that's his choice. Anyway, yeah, we miss him.

noobmigo

12-09-2011, 05:47 PM

I agree on all points.
Well said.
Nice job.

Whirlzap

12-09-2011, 07:01 PM

Extremely good post with thoughtfulness incorporated.
It's hard to get a good comment from me, so you should feel very accomplished:)
I agree/disagree with many things said.
I'm very agreeing with the Platinum->Gold Elixirs, however the Combo only runs seem sort of freedom-taking. People may simply be isolated if they don't use Plat, and the majority of people now only run on Elixirs.
Long time ago when I started leveling Xwhirlz, I saw so many sewers runs that functioned 100% correctly without elixirs and so many farmings without elixirs.

I believe since Elixirs came out, people basically do the following, in order;
-Get elite cap or unelite maximum cap
-PVPers go PVP, rest go hibernate until next campaign

I used to WANT to get the elite cap. Now, I feel FORCED to, because I want the reward.
Long time ago, THERE were actually low level people in the lower level campaigns. This is the only game in which the lower level campaigns(AKA not Mt.Fang) are usually empty, except for Forest Haven.
I have also noticed the amount of players drop 20-30% already.

We get less and less new players join, and when some do, they simply get bored with the content.

The above is from one cause:
Platinum elixirs have become so much of an influence since Sewers, and now dominate the overall amount of dungeons being played. Think about it. What farming runs can actually work out without someone on combo elix in Mount Fang?
None. Some leave when they so no one on elixir, or when a lot of people die.
Another issue, is the soloing. At high levels in other games, it is STILL POSSIBLE to solo the dungeons EASILLY with the top gear(sometimes easily without top gear).
However, right now, with a Full Crafted Lv65 Lilith Staff Set, and three vanities plus a vanity face, ring, and everything possible(top gear), a bear/bird/mage CANNOT properly solo a dungeon AT ALL.
This was the same for Nuri.
However, in AO3 and Sewers, while it was Pretty hard, it was still possible.
I believe STS is making the difficulties of each new campaign a little harder each time, perhaps to increase the amount of elixireres exponentially.

I do still believe STS is doing great. They just opened the computer component of the game. Now, people who don't have iPod/Phone/Pad/Droid/XPERIA/etc, can now also be sucked into spending platinum.
Not to mention Dark Legends.

I think STS just needs to SLOWWWW IT DOWN!!
Remember, all moral thoughts are what is used when dealing with the market, and one is very important: Slow,reliable, and steady wins the race against speedy, ambicious, and uncautious.
Well, not the exact phrase, but you get the point.

In the end, I believe that STS will become a great and dominant game company, perhaps the next WoW.
There has been many bumps like these in the past, although this time it is a pretty long bump, the STS team will roll past it, and win the race.
Hopefully.

Otukura

12-09-2011, 07:19 PM

Another issue, is the soloing. At high levels in other games, it is STILL POSSIBLE to solo the dungeons EASILLY with the top gear(sometimes easily without top gear).
However, right now, with a Full Crafted Lv65 Lilith Staff Set, and three vanities plus a vanity face, ring, and everything possible(top gear), a bear/bird/mage CANNOT properly solo a dungeon AT ALL.
This was the same for Nuri.

Strongly disagree there, it was hard in Nuri's, because one mess-up would force you to respawn, but I find Fang easily solo-able.

WhoIsThis

12-09-2011, 07:49 PM

Strongly disagree there, it was hard in Nuri's, because one mess-up would force you to respawn, but I find Fang easily solo-able.

More so than Nuri - true enough. Boggy was soloable without elixir, although Symphony was hard even with elixir to solo. The "gravestone" and "death shots" would always get you.

Fang can be soloed, but it will take a LONG time. As mentioned above, the mobs don't hit as hard, but have a lot of hp. This makes it more solo-friendly.

Roc

12-09-2011, 07:50 PM

What we have here is a perfect example of constructive criticism and that is, in my opinion, demonstrating both respect for the game and discontent with its faults without being overly harsh. Well written, well organized, well developed, and well done (not the cooked meat kind of well done either ;))! Hopefully future criticisms will be handled with as much clarity and consideration as has been demonstrated here!

apocketlegend

12-09-2011, 10:33 PM

This is one of the most culminating posts I've ever read. Just for your knowledge, I read every word of your two parts. It hooked me in such a manner that I could not take my eyes from the screen. I precisely agree with your views and thoughts. However may I make a few points?
Firstly, the average PL player doesn't have nearly 117k kills. In some later research I found the average 50+ player had 14k kills. I myself have 40k kills. I'll explain why us high levels see levels see 55+ going into nuris hallows with an embarrassing 2-9k kills. It is by reason of power leveling. Which is a topic I do NOT want to get started on. I am not trying to start a flame or a spark in which dilemmas readers. I'm simply making a correction. The player we saw Oviously used Platnium if he/she wasn't here before ao3. How else were they to get 117k kills in such a short amount of time?
About the elixir issue. Many young PL addicts cannot afford to spend 100-500 dollars on Platnium! I myself fall into that category. Many elixir users in PL have jobs and play when they are not working. How do I know this? I've met and talked with many many of these types of players! I think STS should altogether make the campaigns easier. Isnt this the reason all this started? -aside the issue of pocket legends Devs getting cheap and not caring for us anymore.
•another point, whereas brings up another question. Why have the developers seeming getting "lazy" with the new campaigns? Is it because they are too overwhelmed with SL? Perhaps not paying any attention at all to the well beings of the PL community.(which I'm sure is not true, because they have been working very hard for PL)
These are some of my points and opinios I'd like to share along with the thread owner.

-apocket

WhoIsThis

12-09-2011, 11:39 PM

I'm simply making a correction. The player we saw Oviously used Platnium if he/she wasn't here before ao3. How else were they to get 117k kills in such a short amount of time?

Then let me correct your "correction". To begin with, for most of my kills I did not. Over one year is not a short amount of time. I'd estimate that at least ~90k kills were not on elixir. This is completely off topic though and I want this thread kept on topic. Sorry if I sound defensive, but I think I have some right to defend what I did not use elixirs for and not have false accusations fly in my face.

Edit:
If you are wondering, according to Sxybabrz, a standard 4X elixir can give you ~1,500 kills in Nuri. And Sxy (who recently renamed again) has vastly more kills than me.

Edit 2:
In case you are wondering, Oreii also managed 500,000 kills in an even shorter amount of time.

Cascade

12-09-2011, 11:49 PM

I have 11k kills on my main that has been here since May 8th 2010.

WhoIsThis

12-09-2011, 11:58 PM

I have 11k kills on my main that has been here since May 8th 2010.

I would like this thread kept on topic please.

Aratreoybae

12-10-2011, 12:02 AM

Pl is a great game and I think the points you brought out are practical... I have onlybeen playing about 6 months but I have allready seen a decline in quality I think your pvp suggestions should not be over looked. It has become a growing problem. So I ask the devs please take note of what your players want out pl keep up the best mmo..... Great job elf

Cahaun

12-10-2011, 12:45 AM

WhoIsThis

12-10-2011, 12:49 AM

This was a slight nostalgia attack! I started playing right after the first Halloween event so I call myself an "old" player. This was the BEST thread I have read that talks about how we can improve PL! I have an idea also that might help a little. How about we just bring back the "go anywhere you want no matter your level"? I LOVED this feature and I welcomed any low level entering my games! It makes the game feel so less "restricted". I had more fun trying to kill an elite djinn with a lvl 20 character than this "lvl'd up, next place , grind exp and items, lvl'd up, next place" way of playing. (Remember when elixers were looked as just some insignificant feature back then but now it seems neccesary?)

The problem there is that it brings leeching. There was a reason why in the AO3 days, non-level 50s were often booted on sight, especially for Victory Lap runs. A good 45-49 is always better than a bad 50, but even so, the perception of leeching was always there.

For now it seems, it's a platinum only feature.

Kalielle

12-10-2011, 01:25 AM

Thank you for the excellent post! It's rare to see people thinking so in-depth about the game. I agree with most of what you said, with the exception of the idea of separating platinum and non-platinum users in dungeons. I think this would widen the divide and the tension between people using different kinds of elixirs, rather than mitigate it. Unless the non-elixir dungeons would have some sort of bonus to them, the non-elixir users would feel excluded. On the other hand adding a bonus for non-plat users would alienate those who spend the most on the game, so it wouldn't be feasible either.

There is the perception that STS has been milking people of platinum too hard while players do not feel as if they are getting their money's worth. I have asked some players in my guild. Apparently I am cheap by comparison. To date, I have purchased "only" 4,800 platinum. Others have spent $500 - $1,000 USD on the game.

If that's true - and I certainly also heard guildmates express similar thoughts about how they can't believe how much money they spent on plat - then we really can't blame STS for what the game became. I think they didn't want the game to be this way but they had to bend to what the market demanded. We made this happen as consumers. Think of how PL used to be in the early days - a very fair game that did not sell power for real money. And what was the result? People would complain when a dungeon like AO3 with tons of new content cost 20 platinum. It was a very fair well-designed game, and I bet it was making a lot less money than it should have been. So then the game turned around and did what it said it would not do, and sold power - and it worked.

A lot of my friends who spent a lot of money on elixirs are now complaining (months later!) that the game has become all about platinum and no longer satisfies them. Take a minute to think about the irony of that. I am grateful to them for supporting the game, and for making my leveling life easier when I was running with them. But I think it shows that as consumers we have no idea what we want. How can we expect STS to know what makes us happy until we figure it out ourselves?

WhoIsThis

12-10-2011, 03:58 AM

I agree with most of what you said, with the exception of the idea of separating platinum and non-platinum users in dungeons. I think this would widen the divide and the tension between people using different kinds of elixirs, rather than mitigate it. Unless the non-elixir dungeons would have some sort of bonus to them, the non-elixir users would feel excluded. On the other hand adding a bonus for non-plat users would alienate those who spend the most on the game, so it wouldn't be feasible either.

The solution I must admit is imperfect. But I do feel that the elixir people are entitled to not have leechers, especially as they paid. I myself have seen that elixir users demand that people pot or boot. I can see why - non-elixir users don't add much firepower and level as well.

I don't think there should be any more pressure to use elixirs in the non-elixir dungeons. There is nobody that they are interacting with to pressure them, unlike in the current arrangement. I think there should be less, because they can't buy elixirs in the non-elixir dungeons. Would it create a permanent class-divide? Well, first, non-elixir and elixir users are much less likely to interact with each other in PvE, and I suppose this is both a benefit (less pressure for non-elixir and no leecher for elixir) and drawback (meet fewer new people). But on the other hand, there are no barriers per se. Elixir users can stop whenever they wish and non-elixir users can buy whenever they wish. So I don't think that it will create a barrier.

A lot of my friends who spent a lot of money on elixirs are now complaining (months later!) that the game has become all about platinum and no longer satisfies them. Take a minute to think about the irony of that. I am grateful to them for supporting the game, and for making my leveling life easier when I was running with them. But I think it shows that as consumers we have no idea what we want. How can we expect STS to know what makes us happy until we figure it out ourselves?

People complaining is not the problem. People thinking about quitting though ... is another matter entirely.

Whatever consumers want, burning a lot of platinum for 1 hour 4x combo elixirs is not it. Truth be told, different people probably have different ideas. I have illustrated what I think will satisfy the vast majority.

Kalielle

12-10-2011, 11:06 AM

But I do feel that the elixir people are entitled to not have leechers, especially as they paid. I myself have seen that elixir users demand that people pot or boot. I can see why - non-elixir users don't add much firepower and level as well.

I suppose I really can't disagree with that, as much as it bothers me. The way the game is set up, non-elilxir users have indeed been turned into leechers.

But doesn't it make you feel uneasy at all when your performance in a game is determined by how much real money you spend on it? I mean, is it even a game at that point? By your own definitions, you're less valuable as a guildmate and group member compared to the friends of yours you mentioned who spend $1000 on the game. MMOs are about showing off success to other players in a virtual world, and whether you segregate elixir users or not, the real issue remains - that success is now granted exclusively in exchange for real money, because elixir users can level much faster and farm the best gear much easier, and their advantage is so big that other players can't overcome (or even equal it) it even if they had immense skill or the most brilliant strategies.

It's not that I'm against spending money on games - on the contrary, I think people have a duty to support the games they love. I maintain 3 World of Warcraft subscriptions for my household, and spend money on many games every month and I don't even think about it twice. It's just - if I get dismissed from a raid in WoW for my low dps for example, I know I can't pay Blizzard a fee to fix it. I'll have to go and do things in the game instead to improve. And that's what makes it a game. If your success in game depends upon your success in real life, then it doesn't feel like a game anymore, and that's what makes me uncomfortable about it.

Fusionstrike

12-10-2011, 03:06 PM

This is a very thoughtful, well-constructed post. I hope the developers and community at large both appreciate the effort invested in producing it.

There's a lot here I agree with, but I'd like to talk about one part that I think would be extremely problematic. You suggested that PvP should be capable of providing drops, basically so that those players need never do anything in PvE again. I don't know what to think about that goal (maybe it would be great for PL, maybe not). However, implementation of the suggestion itself would bring a world of complication. The basic problem is that PvP is, by definition, a game in which players control the difficulty. Having a system that gives out hard-to-acquire items that is controlled entirely by the players themselves would immediately be gamed and abused. After all, if players can get pinks by simply firing up PvP with a "cooperative foe", they can use this system to crank out "pink drop chances" much easier than farming the PvE side of the game.

This fundamental problem would open a gigantic can of worms. The possible outcomes are:
1. PvP becomes the new way to get pinks. PvP becomes the farming grounds, the PvE community is now forced to do PvP just to farm (ironically a complete reversal from PvP players who are "forced" to do some PvE today), and the bottom drops out of the resale market as pinks flood the shop.
2. PvP drop rate is tuned to compensate for players gaming the system to be much lower than PvE. This would prevent all the negatives of item 1 above, but would basically defeat the purpose of the idea. PvP players would get things so rarely that it would do little to address the issue it was intended to solve. The idea ends up having no practical effect on the problem, and PvP players are back to square 1.
3. The devs resolutely commit to creating such a system with a bunch of rules that prevent abuse of PvP as a pink farming ground. There are rules about battle having to go on for a certain duration, or with a certain number of players, or certain amount of damage dealt to each player, etc etc. This is all in an attempt to detect and thwart players "taking a dive" to farm pinks in PvP. Inevitably, the rules will be insufficient, loopholes will be found and PvP farmers will enter an endless cat-and-mouse game with the devs over farming pinks "the easy way". This will either take lots of effort and attention away from the main development the devs ought to be doing, or else a bad system will simply be left in place and provide for endless grumbling about fairness in the community.

In summary, although I understand the idea and the rationale behind it, I believe this idea is doomed to fail in its execution. The fundamental problem is that players control how hard PvP is, and therefore any reward attached to it will inevitably be gamed to unfair advantage. I predict it would be a huge source of drama, bad feelings and community and developer discontent.

WhoIsThis

12-10-2011, 03:44 PM

It's just - if I get dismissed from a raid in WoW for my low dps for example, I know I can't pay Blizzard a fee to fix it. I'll have to go and do things in the game instead to improve. And that's what makes it a game. If your success in game depends upon your success in real life, then it doesn't feel like a game anymore, and that's what makes me uncomfortable about it.

The thing is - with a segregation system, nobody in the 3rd category can dismiss you if you had no elixirs because they don't and people in the 2nd category can't dismiss you because you can't enter with an elixir. The segregation system would see to that.

I could however a rift growing between the permanent elixir and non-permanent, but as I mentioned, there are no barriers to either side.

Strictly, the people without elixirs can always level the traditional way if they wish and pursue the elite levels, collect the best pinks, etc. It's only that for a given amount of time spent, the elixir users will be more productive. Given that there will be less interaction in game, it should actually ease tensions somewhat. None of this is applicable as well in PvP where elixirs don't count.

WhoIsThis

12-10-2011, 03:46 PM

This fundamental problem would open a gigantic can of worms. The possible outcomes are:
1. PvP becomes the new way to get pinks. PvP becomes the farming grounds, the PvE community is now forced to do PvP just to farm (ironically a complete reversal from PvP players who are "forced" to do some PvE today), and the bottom drops out of the resale market as pinks flood the shop.
2. PvP drop rate is tuned to compensate for players gaming the system to be much lower than PvE. This would prevent all the negatives of item 1 above, but would basically defeat the purpose of the idea. PvP players would get things so rarely that it would do little to address the issue it was intended to solve. The idea ends up having no practical effect on the problem, and PvP players are back to square 1.
3. The devs resolutely commit to creating such a system with a bunch of rules that prevent abuse of PvP as a pink farming ground. There are rules about battle having to go on for a certain duration, or with a certain number of players, or certain amount of damage dealt to each player, etc etc. This is all in an attempt to detect and thwart players "taking a dive" to farm pinks in PvP. Inevitably, the rules will be insufficient, loopholes will be found and PvP farmers will enter an endless cat-and-mouse game with the devs over farming pinks "the easy way". This will either take lots of effort and attention away from the main development the devs ought to be doing, or else a bad system will simply be left in place and provide for endless grumbling about fairness in the community.

The goal is to make PvE and PvP both a venue for farming. Drops would be unaltered in PvE. It's just that drops would also occur in PvP. The only thing that might happen is a drop in your chances in PvE to get a pink to compensate and make sure that the same number of pinks is on the market.

The point is to make the drops roughly the same rate for both. That way, neither is favored. Number 3 is the most probable, although it's harder to boost than you think. I don't think that a cat and mouse game would result. For one, you need a target that is willing to just stand there and die. I have proposed a mechanism to prevent people with 2 devices, and that should cover most of it.

Fusionstrike

12-10-2011, 04:11 PM

The goal is to make PvE and PvP both a venue for farming. Drops would be unaltered in PvE. It's just that drops would also occur in PvP. The only thing that might happen is a drop in your chances in PvE to get a pink to compensate and make sure that the same number of pinks is on the market.

The point is to make the drops roughly the same rate for both. That way, neither is favored. Number 3 is the most probable, although it's harder to boost than you think. I don't think that a cat and mouse game would result. For one, you need a target that is willing to just stand there and die. I have proposed a mechanism to prevent people with 2 devices, and that should cover most of it.

I understand the point, but I still believe execution would be the problem. You said they could do something to prevent one person using two devices and therefore being both sides of the "contest". But this doesn't address the very real problem of two legitimately different devices used by two different people from gaming the system. Think about all those hard-core farming guilds that exist now. You think they'd hesitate for a second to have two member agree to take a dive in PvP if they thought it would get them a faster route to pinks? So in the end, there would have to be a lot of effort put into making PvP not the "easy way" to pick drops even with "two device" protection mechanisms.

I get what the goal is and why you suggested it. If there were a way to do it, it might even be better for PL. It's just never going to work in practice.

Bunnyshoota

12-10-2011, 04:13 PM

Very good. 6/5.
What would be your opinion on some possible veterans awards?

WhoIsThis

12-10-2011, 06:54 PM

I understand the point, but I still believe execution would be the problem. You said they could do something to prevent one person using two devices and therefore being both sides of the "contest". But this doesn't address the very real problem of two legitimately different devices used by two different people from gaming the system. Think about all those hard-core farming guilds that exist now. You think they'd hesitate for a second to have two member agree to take a dive in PvP if they thought it would get them a faster route to pinks? So in the end, there would have to be a lot of effort put into making PvP not the "easy way" to pick drops even with "two device" protection mechanisms.

I get what the goal is and why you suggested it. If there were a way to do it, it might even be better for PL. It's just never going to work in practice.

If they don't want to suffer an inordinate amount of deaths - it would make no logical sense to do this.

The amount of time it would take for a person to die and respawn is more or less the same as it would take in a 3v3 FFA. The rate of death would be no more than that of an FFA. In fact, it may actually be less, because there are only 2 people and one is not fighting back. Thus, it would make very little sense for a guild to choose to do this. Plus, the drop rates would not be any more than they would get in PvE for a given period of time, making this even less logical. Unless you prefer PvP, you would not want to do it.

The nature of how you responded does make me want to ask, how much PvP experience do you have? If the answer is less than thousand kills or haven't seen an FFA game (ex: you've always played 1v1 .... which many new players unfortunately do), you probably haven't seen enough. 1v1's are slow-paced. FFA and close quarters CTF though ... is another thing entirely.

Conradin

12-10-2011, 08:18 PM

WhoIsThis

12-11-2011, 04:31 AM

We NEED skill trees. Our skill set ups are lame atm. Ellyidol has a few great discussion threads on this and skill tress would allow us to truly have pales and inters and the such.

And i agree- We've needed pvp rewards ever since it came out. I think you should pm this to the devs.

And for the above problem You cant kill the same person more than 4 times in a row in 57 minutes or the same person 12 times in 15 minutes (the numbers might be bigger when implemented

The drop probabilities would have to be weighted.

How it would work is simple. When a person dies, 3 types of people get a chance to get a drop:

1. The killer - for simply killing
2. The victim - we don't want to penalize victims for being in PvP; we want to reward them for their efforts
3. Anybody else that did damage within 30 seconds of the target's death. Too often pallies, warbirds, and bears do damage but don't get the kill. They should not be penalized for this.

In FFA, this would work out.

Now suppose player A has killed B. C and D did damage to B as well. All four players have an equal chance of getting a drop.

1. Do I get a drop at all? This will be in the same amount as the junk drops you get from killing mobs. Like mobs in PvE, just because you were in 1-3 doesn't mean you are assured a drop.
2. Now chances are you will get a junk drop. Do I roll for a good drop? The drop chances must be carefully weighed.

1 hour of PvE should give an equal (or within 10%) chance of getting a rare pink of the level of the player that got the drop (scaled drops).

In CTF, the chances of getting a drop are somewhat reduced. To compensate, you get drops when your team scores a goal. You will do have almost as high a chance of getting a drop when you make kills. This is to prevent the game from penalizing players in long CTF matches. The number of kills is roughly proportional to a CTF match's length.

Also, there will NOT be messages of who got what. You learn what you got either at the end of a game or upon exit (or if you disconnect, when you log in again). Messages of who received what would be too distracting in fast paced PvP.

WhoIsThis

12-11-2011, 05:16 AM

What would be your opinion on some possible veterans awards?

I am actually opposed to them at this point. When the founder's cap came out, I opposed on the grounds that it might alter twink warfare dramatically (the stats don't matter as much at higher levels). Over time though, I have become more ambivalent on the matter - empirical evidence suggests that what I feared did not come to pass.

The persistence vanity though I did support. Unlike just "being" here, I felt that the vanity was for something that was worth doing (83,840 xp, of which I grinded on 2 characters and at the time used no platinum elixirs). I have voiced my opinions in a thread in the PvP section on the vanity. Admittedly, the sense of accomplishment has now been diminished in the later levels because it is a platinum grindfest, but now it becomes an item that you paid to have and thus are entitled to have the bonus. It is entirely optional.

At this point, I oppose the idea of vanity rewards because it is more of a "being" sort of thing rather than accomplishing something or paying for something. I would however support things like that special shield that came out when the main spine became free, because it was something paid for.

Survivorfan

12-11-2011, 06:36 AM

This was an extremely good read in my mind, and I hope a dev sees this because you have some awesome points in there. On thing though, I know that you say you don't like recycled content but one of the devs said something along the line of, the reason for recycled content is because it takes up less space. I think that they should split the game however. I think a solution would make a game for the levels up to 50, then make a new game that is also free, and has levels 50-66 for now. This would allow the game to have more in it and if you wanted to switch, it is literally a click of a button.

MightyMicah

12-11-2011, 07:34 AM

@fusionstrike & Whoisthis I disagree with you whoisthis in that there won't be people farming for pinks in pvp. I bieve it will be abbused. I think however that if it was set up right, you would be correct. I may not have the idea, but its as simple as making pve slightly more efficiant farming than pvp. Thus, the pvp addicts (such as myself) who simply hate grinding for pinks, could get a lesser set that gets the job done all the while improving with each new pink earned.

Another thing that needs to be realized is that pinks overall rate will increase. Afterall, if theres 2 places being "farmed" then theres almost double the pinks. (i say almost because pvp wouldn't be as fast.) what's this mean? It means pinks will lose value and market prices will go down. Personally I would love that, but i know many would disagree. The only solution would be lowering drop rates in pve and pvp. No hardcore pve player would accept that.

Perhaps there's other solutions but I can't think of any atm.

~MM

RedRyder

12-11-2011, 09:44 AM

Oh my jeebus. I'm never one to read long posts, but I read yours entirely and I don't regret it! Hopefully this will all get put into consideration at least.

mrnofunz

12-11-2011, 10:12 AM

Thank you for your words...I wouldn't have said it any differently. We need more from STS. Some of us have spent a large sum of money, comparatively to other games, for recycled content. If change doesn't come soon...

WhoIsThis

12-11-2011, 08:44 PM

MightyMicah

12-11-2011, 11:40 PM

Agreed :)

WhoIsThis

12-13-2011, 03:45 AM

It remains to be seen whether or not PvP rewards will even be implemented.

Duped

12-13-2011, 01:52 PM

Snakespeare

12-13-2011, 02:16 PM

shanmarie33

12-13-2011, 03:53 PM

Wow. Brilliant. Thank you for taking the time to write out what so many others are thinking. I do not post, but read and enjoy the forums very much.

I adore the idea of a monthly subscription. As a paying customer, I too, have felt taken advantage of. It was a choice to purchase plat for elixers, but one I may not have made if I knew the xp per level was going to be made permanent or the earlier-than-announced fang release. Not to mention, needing one just to surive the mobs or bosses without dying constantly or using 100 pots per run.

I hope STS really makes some big changes to the business plan. We are not just players. We are customers. We are supportive fans. We are Alterra.

66 pure mage
65 pure bird
65 pure bear
and a few others inbetween

WhoIsThis

12-13-2011, 10:41 PM

With respect, and I really mean that as this is an excellent thread, I do not want the game altered to make PvP a central part of the game. It is an add-on, I never liked it, and I wish it would just go away. That's my 2 cents. I would probably have to leave if they started dropping pinks in PvP or giving XP. IMO, they should never have added it. It is the place, from my limited experience, where it's OK to be mean.

I also feel the same way about elixirs. I wish they didn't exist. It's mildly cheating, IMO, and giving those who use them special privileges will be the death of this game.

But I want to reiterate that I really appreciate the thoughtful attitudes in this thread.

In a sense, what I am suggesting will make PvP "go away". I think it would breathe new life into the game.

PvP players will have less reasons to interact with PvE players if they had the ability to farm everything they needed in PvE.

Edit:
On that note, I should point out that there are PvP players that wish that PvE would just disappear. I know I'm not going to convince you, but right now, PvE players have a sense of a superiority complex and PvP players do as well. Both regulars view their main game as "superior" and wish the other one was marginalized.

I think that the best solution is to accept that each side has the right to exist and different needs that need to be catered to. "Wishing" PvP would go away isn't going to solve anything.

Moogerfooger

12-13-2011, 10:48 PM

We NEED skill trees. Our skill set ups are lame atm. Ellyidol has a few great discussion threads on this and skill tress would allow us to truly have pales and inters and the such.

I think the introduction of skill trees would be the single most game-changing thing - for both PvE and PvP, for different but valuable reasons - that STS could do to inject some new life into the game, beyond simply cranking out (in my opinion) slightly underwhelming campaigns just to keep us interested. I like relatively quick updates, but would rather wait a bit longer for something epic like AO3. Skill trees, even done like FailLoft's Order & Chaos, would be a blast. Each race/class had two different types of trees (for example, Rangers could go with an Archer path or an Assassin path) and part of the fun was figuring out what skills did what in relation to others.

It might be tricky to set up and balance initially, but man would it be a breath of fresh air instead of everyone running around at end-game with eseentially the same build like we have now, as far as skills go.

WhoIsThis

12-13-2011, 10:49 PM

Lots of great ideas, here's my thoughts on a few things:

Pvp rewards? I think getting xp for a kill would be a plausible idea, just like pve, except our mobs have much greater health and less actual intelligence :p. I don't favor premium pinks dropping, I agree in theory its nice, but in practice would fail.

Segregation of games is a horrible idea IMO. There is already mechanisms in place to lock games, and that needs no changing. Also, when you say that levels should get progressively more difficult, I think the perfect balance was Sewers. In Sewers, bad players slowed things down, and good players sped things up (then skill point distribution also made a big difference, where it doesn't now). I remember laughing because a good group would clear the level as fast as any group on 4x, it just took longer to kill bosses without the elixirs. Then, skill mattered, and not just who wanted to buy elixirs. The thing is that people will still buy elixirs to hit level cap on their toons, but if the bosses and levels were also enjoyable without elixirs than those like me, who primarily only buy things I can stash with plat, and use patience to level up would be happy too.

The thing is, suppose you have a person who has a 4X. They want to level fast. They want don't want non-combo elixir people. At the same time, they want more 4X people to level, but there aren't enough friends on. At this point, the 4X user has no choice but to start a game and hope more elixir users will go on. Basically, they have to ask every non-elixir user to leave or boot them until they get a full party. Plus, there is no label saying "this is a 4X only run"; segregation would help the 4X user. They won't get their money's worth and that is bad for STS; they may feel disinclined to spend in the future. Locking games does not offer any solutions for this - in fact a player would not want to lock a game in that situation in an attempt to get more people with elixirs to join up.

At the same time, we have players that hate the elixirs with a passion. They can have games with 0 chance of any elixir people intruding on their slower runs.

The problem right now is that we can't match people's desires. There are people joining in 4X runs and getting themselves booted. There are also 4X players who do not feel as if they are getting the best run possible - a run with 4x runners only. By giving an option to segregate, it should prevent bootings and lead to more productive runs. The host always has the choice of course to create a non-segregated game.

Edit:
Finally, remember that STS needs to give people a reason to buy elixirs. You don't want elixirs. You clearly hate them. But, STS does. If elixir buyers get a private game, they're more likely to feel that they've gotten their money's worth. STS wins and the player wins. With the option to segregate, you won't ever have to deal with such players.

I did read all of this, and all the related posts. I think you made some excellent points, however, here is one big problem with your theory. It's all based on the fact that STS will suffer because of people leaving and therefore less profits, etc. I don't have any data, but we both seem to believe that STS is making more profit than ever. If that is indeed the case, than, anything they do to harm elixir sales (the golden goose) is negative to the company until actual numbers show this model is not working. If their sales are increasing, than why should they stop when by and large, consumers are still buying?

I, like you and others that have been around for some time, see growing discontent, but that is among players like me who remember 15-20 plat dungeons and 5-10 plat vanities. The new generation does not know those days, and they are comfortable with the current environ, and many of the older players have simply adjusted right along with the new changes.

That is arguably the best counterpoint I have heard do far.

Presently:

1. The older players are unhappy and some have discussed leaving, including many that are loyal; I think that it wouldn't take much to push some of them out

2. Depending on the demographic, younger players ability to endlessly spend may be limited; need a demographic study of the younger people to confirm or deny this one

But yes, everyone seems to spend more for now. The problem is that milking right now might lead to less happy customers in the long run, even among the newer players that do burn plat. They may not adjust - they may conclude that this game is simply too expensive or deliberately try to restrict their platinum sales, which leads to a less good game in the long run. If large numbers of people do adjust though ... then yes, that would be a flaw in my argument. But there would have to be enough players to make up for the ones that have left or will ration platinum and the fact that there are players leaving could inhibit future growth rates.

Compounding the problem is that when a game begins to lose its most loyal players, from experience with other MMOs, things can become a ghost town pretty quickly. I know it will sound hard to believe, but from experience, games can crash surprisingly rapidly (and in the span of less than 1 week). The only other outcome possible in such a situation is that a bunch of for lack of a better term, noobs come in and the whole MMO declines because the quality of player is now extremely poor to the point where it is no longer worth playing.

WhoIsThis

12-13-2011, 10:58 PM

I think the introduction of skill trees would be the single most game-changing thing - for both PvE and PvP, for different but valuable reasons - that STS could do to inject some new life into the game, beyond simply cranking out (in my opinion) slightly underwhelming campaigns just to keep us interested. I like relatively quick updates, but would rather wait a bit longer for something epic like AO3. Skill trees, even done like FailLoft's Order & Chaos, would be a blast. Each race/class had two different types of trees (for example, Rangers could go with an Archer path or an Assassin path) and part of the fun was figuring out what skills did what in relation to others.

It might be tricky to set up and balance initially, but man would it be a breath of fresh air instead of everyone running around at end-game with eseentially the same build like we have now, as far as skills go.

I'd have to agree that something needs to be done to spice up game play.

Either skill trees or perhaps something radically new like a completely different environment for which the players can interact in.

So far, 2 of the big suggestions that have been proposed here, skill trees, and PvP rewards are major changes that will need plenty of balancing.

I think that we need to suggest a combination of minor and major changes.

zeusabe

12-13-2011, 11:52 PM

I'll just focus in on the PVP-looting idea and pay-to-play suggestion. Just to clarify, the PVP-loot isn't unique as it has been done in the past especially on PVP servers where you can literally kill anyone, anywhere except in towns and villages and get rewarded for it. I, myself, actively plays an MMO in a private-PPV server so I know exactly the pro's and con's of it as far as my own personal experience (not claiming as general fact). I understand that you are not suggesting a conversion from PVE server to PVP server, but at least I know what it's like to kill another player for loot. With that experience let me share some of my assessments: There is a reason why PVP servers are mostly "private" and that is because the system is flawed, even without being a seasoned player, you can easily pinpoint it. With that system, I can simply talk to another player and kill each other repeatedly to gain "infinite" loots or for as long as both of you want to kill each other, that has been the problem that most PVP servers face, everyone became "God-like" therefore it destroyed the entire economy and PVP servers became battle of numbers in FFA's than skill. Which brings me to my second analysis, PL is not ready for "numbers", they cannot even have instances with more than 50 people in it, their servers simply cannot hold it. There is a reason why we have a 3v3 or 5v5 mechanic, that's because, unlike other MMO's with "bigger" servers, they cannot hold an open FFA map with higher population. So anyway, going back, item leeching will be practiced to its greatest form. Your suggestion will ultimately lead to a PVP-oriented game which the game itself is not ready, definitely, not ready, both in in-game mechanic and technical aspect. I'll leave my opinion on that note, I'll see what you'll have to say. Going to your second point, the pay-to-play subscription, you do realize that venturing into that market will put PL along with the likes of World of Warcraft, Rift, Darkfall, Eve Online, Aion...etc? these titans will eat PL alive. Personally, I will not pay for this game on a monthly, it's a rip-off if you will compare it to other pay-to-play games. Even Old pay-to-play games are better than PL. One of the major cloaks protecting PL from huge criticism is because of the fact that it's free and it's in a mobile/tablet hence technical limits, the moment you remove that cloak, the game is gonna get clobbered by game critics and hardcore players alike because now you will require people to spend hard-earned money to spend in a game, they will have to justify the $$$ they will charge and after playing other pay-to-play games, I've not seen a single thing in this game that will make me pay for it monthly (my own opinion) over the other ones. This game might be one of the best innovation in 2010, but no way in hell is it on the same level of existing titans in pay-to-play, IMO, the game will die painfully if they do that. The bar is simply too high in pay-to-play market as of the moment, and PL isn't really touching that market right now because they know they can't, the game is geared for casual not for hardcore, requiring people to pay is calling out hardcore market. The logic will be like this, "Why would I pay for PL if I can pay for WoW or Rift or Aion", the moment that sinks in, it's over. Anyway, that's it on my opinions. I'll reserve others after you address these. Thanks. XD

Moogerfooger

12-13-2011, 11:54 PM

As far as skills go, and I know you and others have debated what to do with skills, perhaps another solution, if they will not do skill trees due to size limitations or whatever, is to raise max skill level to 8. But, of course if we did that, some skills would be overwhelmingly powerful.

Maybe, for example....increase max level of skills to 8.

In the past (and I am making these numbers up, not accurate, just for illustrative purposes):

Say Drain Life at lvl 61 was 430-500, currently maxed at 6.
Say at 66 it is 470-550, currently maxed at 6
Say at lvl 71 it is.....500-580....IF maxed to lvl 8. Keeping it at 6 (out of a 8 point max scale) would drop it back down to say 400-450.

You could have some varied builds now, without having the new max level of 8 being ridiculous. It would force players to re-think skill builds, without radically altering the skills if it is not possible/STS chooses (unfortunately) not to implement.

I would love skill trees, even just a couple for each class....but I can't think of a drawback off the top of my head to a scaled max level change to 8, for example.

Thoughts?

Duped

12-14-2011, 02:00 AM

I agree theres not any real reason to up the skill levels to 8. I put my first point in meditate, and gosh, what a horrible horrible skill. 45 second cool down for a 3 second ms boost. Even having a point in heal felt noobish to me. My birdy was awesome in sewers and a good bird and bad bird stood out very clearly. Now, we all have the same builds, sheesh, a player by max level can't really even mess up his skills, its all just automatic now, no thought required

WhoIsThis

12-14-2011, 04:11 AM

Tetraeder

12-14-2011, 06:47 AM

Wow!
Thks WhoIsThis for this great job.

Imsebastiaanl

12-14-2011, 07:57 AM

Well said attackelf

utaca

12-14-2011, 08:17 AM

Thanks for a great start now if sts will follow through this should be all time post.

Thanks for your time and thoughts of many.

Moogerfooger

12-14-2011, 08:28 AM

I think we'll be fine ... so long as each class has their non-buff skills upped to 8. Buffed skills would remain at 6.

It would force some decision making at least ... which skills to max out?

Some are obvious choices:

Bird:
- Blast shot
- Break armor

For PvP
- Blinding shot
- Repulse

And so on ...

I'm reluctant to go above 8 right now though - we don't want for example birds breaking massive amounts of armor.

I didn't mean that raising max skill levels (on non-buff/de-buff skills) was a great idea, for sure....it just would lead to some variety and some thought required when picking a build. I am pretty sure almost every end-game archer, bear and mage have pretty much the same skill build at this point, give or take a point or two here or there.

I still think skill trees is the way to go. Would make PL and SL way more hugely varied/entertaining. Not to mention the plat generated by all the constant respecs ;)

WhoIsThis

12-14-2011, 08:43 PM

We need either more skills, or a skill tree - hmm.

With more skills, the skills have to be roughly comparable in power. Otherwise, we'd have the same problems.

I'm against the idea that one person suggested of allowing other skills from other classes.

Otherwise, what to choose?

- Beckon
- Thorn Wall
- Lightning
- Ice Storm
- Fire Blast
- Drain life (or alternatively shattering scream for blast)
- Blast Shot
- Blessings of Might
- Evade (bird)
- Mage Heal
- Mana Shield
- Perhaps Revive, or alternatively stomp

Reason?

1. Beckon, if stomped available, use
2. Thorn
3. Lightning
4. Hot flash, which if timed well can hit as same time as nature strike
5. Blast shot

Unstoppable AOE domination.

Moogerfooger

12-14-2011, 09:14 PM

No, imho cross-class skill usage would be tragic for one, and be almost impossible to balance for two. Hey, an idea is an idea, but that would be too hard to balance out.

The idea of a beckoning archer or taunting mage is kind of funny, though :_

WhoIsThis

12-14-2011, 11:40 PM

So anyway, going back, item leeching will be practiced to its greatest form. Your suggestion will ultimately lead to a PVP-oriented game which the game itself is not ready, definitely, not ready, both in in-game mechanic and technical aspect.
...

The bar is simply too high in pay-to-play market as of the moment, and PL isn't really touching that market right now because they know they can't, the game is geared for casual not for hardcore, requiring people to pay is calling out hardcore market. The logic will be like this, "Why would I pay for PL if I can pay for WoW or Rift or Aion", the moment that sinks in, it's over. Anyway, that's it on my opinions. I'll reserve others after you address these. Thanks. XD

The thing is - WOW you must pay. With PL, you have the option to pay or not to pay, with no real penalty if you do not. No elixirs when you do a run. That is not something that everybody wants. People who want to can pay. People who do not, won't. You get 100% of the content if you pay or not, which is a huge difference. In a typical MMO, you MUST pay often to get access to content or to even keep playing.

Equally important, to your response about a PVP centric game - not at all. I have repeatedly said that PvP will not have a higher drop than PvE. You also do not lose your items when you die in PvP - in fact under my system, you gain items.

AbsolutePally

12-15-2011, 01:12 PM

Disappointing to not see any dev comments. Fearfu that if something like this goes unnoticed it may have tragic consequences for PL.

Snakespeare

12-15-2011, 01:30 PM

Disappointing to not see any dev comments. Fearfu that if something like this goes unnoticed it may have tragic consequences for PL.

Devs read every post. This whole thread is so well thought out, you can be certain they have read and discussed it among themselves.

zeusabe

12-15-2011, 01:42 PM

The thing is - WOW you must pay. With PL, you have the option to pay or not to pay, with no real penalty if you do not. No elixirs when you do a run. That is not something that everybody wants. People who want to can pay. People who do not, won't. You get 100% of the content if you pay or not, which is a huge difference. In a typical MMO, you MUST pay often to get access to content or to even keep playing.

Equally important, to your response about a PVP centric game - not at all. I have repeatedly said that PvP will not have a higher drop than PvE. You also do not lose your items when you die in PvP - in fact under my system, you gain items.

The psychological effect of subscription will still be there, obviously, in order to sell that optional subscription, at all, it must have some sort of leverage compared to purchasing platinum items one by one (product bundling to summarize your idea), otherwise, nobody would even touch that. People will start to think that STS is forcing their players into subscribing. However you put it, there is no such thing as a hybrid pay-to-play and free game, the moment you put that option, it will be classified as pay-to-play. That's how the industry works. Name one game where it's classified as hybrid pay-to-play and subscription. None. When somebody checks out a "new" game they haven't played before unlike yourself, they will only see that "subscription" option and automatically classify it as such. I don't think it's a good business move for STS.

Regardless of drop rate, they can still abuse the item drops from PVP kills by coercing. I did not say that losing items is the problem, it's the fact that you can repeatedly kill a fellow player with consent and get loots regardless if they lose that particular item or not. It's a proven flaw already that's happening now. Anyway, you're just suggesting so I won't really bother too much about it since you didn't really claim it would be the best direction. Nice effort for the write-up though. Thanks. XD

WhoIsThis

12-15-2011, 10:03 PM

The psychological effect of subscription will still be there, obviously, in order to sell that optional subscription, at all, it must have some sort of leverage compared to purchasing platinum items one by one (product bundling to summarize your idea), otherwise, nobody would even touch that. People will start to think that STS is forcing their players into subscribing. However you put it, there is no such thing as a hybrid pay-to-play and free game, the moment you put that option, it will be classified as pay-to-play. That's how the industry works. Name one game where it's classified as hybrid pay-to-play and subscription. None. When somebody checks out a "new" game they haven't played before unlike yourself, they will only see that "subscription" option and automatically classify it as such. I don't think it's a good business move for STS.

Regardless of drop rate, they can still abuse the item drops from PVP kills by coercing. I did not say that losing items is the problem, it's the fact that you can repeatedly kill a fellow player with consent and get loots regardless if they lose that particular item or not. It's a proven flaw already that's happening now. Anyway, you're just suggesting so I won't really bother too much about it since you didn't really claim it would be the best direction. Nice effort for the write-up though. Thanks. XD

You're kidding right? Coercion to PvP? Nobody is compelled to PvP - in fact the PvE chances remain better (due to the availability of elixirs). The incentive to PvP does not exist in that respect. If drop rates in PvP > PvE, then yes, there could be. But I did not advocate for such a system. And if anybody is trying to "coerce" anybody else into PvPing (or for that matter doing anything), that player ought to be reported. How is it already happening? In PvP, there are no rewards. There is no "coercion" to PvP happening right now either. Everybody who PvPs does so voluntarily - PvPing is very much a labor of love right now because there are no rewards.

I did not advocate for losing items for a very good reason - in fact I'd consider quitting if they did.

Finally, there is an incentive to subscribe yes, but so long as 100% of the content is free, there should not be an obligation. I make it very clear that there needs to be no obligation in my original post, which I think you need to re-read and my response earlier. In most other MMOs, you must pay for access - what I am advocating is to keep the full game accessible for non-platinum and to make an option to subscribe, but a subscription that gives no new content and nothing that could not be purchased with platinum should the player so desire. I suppose in that respect, it is an unconventional idea. But, the volume of platinum sales suggests that there are plenty of players that are willing to put a lot of money into this game. How the subscription is billed is key.

WhoIsThis

12-15-2011, 10:12 PM

Disappointing to not see any dev comments. Fearfu that if something like this goes unnoticed it may have tragic consequences for PL.

I have not been on since this morning, but the winter campaign does not bode well. Platinum for runs is worsening the earlier perception that things are not going well. I suspect that this post has largely been ignored.

blurryeyes

12-15-2011, 10:30 PM

WhoIsThis

12-16-2011, 11:47 PM

good work.....long and precise

I do suggest devs to look into the event pack plat purchase

in halloween 2011, people were crazy about getting all the vanities and the pink pitchfork, so what happened to our duplicated extra vanities? They just sit in our stash/inventory occupying space and we dont even want to loot any of them because its would be a 'waste' to do so.

in the new xmas 2011, people will be crazy again for the gingerbread and keep on buying packs until they get one.

at the end..our stash/inventory will be filled with extra vanities which we can't do anything about it.

I strongly suggest devs to make use of the extra vanities so that the plat buyers feel they are worth to spend

To be honest, vanity, I am not too worried about.

If you wish to spend 500 plat to buy that vanity or for random vanities, so long as they don't have stats (or in the case of the holiday weapons, not stats powerful enough to change the game), it should be ok.

Vanity is 100% optional for purchase, although I do support the idea of a la carte vanity purchases at a raised price.

Samhayne

12-17-2011, 12:15 AM

Great post. Just a quick note to say thanks and let you know that yes the team reads the forums.

WhoIsThis

12-17-2011, 12:18 AM

Great post. Just a quick note to say thanks and let you know that yes the team reads the forums.

To begin with, I am glad that this post has been read (and I hope that given the amount of time it took me to write it ... a couple hours by the entire PL dev team), I do however feel that there needs to be some sort of formal response to everything that has happened - perhaps a 2,000+ word post regarding the future.

Something like a road map for the next year or so. As the length hints, it should be in significant detail. We are seeing some players get discouraged and leave or go on hiatus.

Moogerfooger

12-17-2011, 12:29 AM

To begin with, I am glad that this post has been read (and I hope that given the amount of time it took me to write it ... a couple hours by the entire PL dev team), I do however feel that there needs to be some sort of formal response to everything that has happened - perhaps a 2,000+ word post regarding the future.

Something like a road map for the next year or so. As the length hints, it should be in significant detail. We are seeing some players get discouraged and leave or go on hiatus.

+1.

It is not enough, at this point in light of semi-recent events, to simply know that the devs are reading. What people are looking for are dev responses other than "We have mouths to feed". We know this. Multiple concerns/issues have been raised, most regarding plat in some shape or form, that have not been answered or addressed with anything other than "We are a business". We know this. The majority of vet forumers know this and did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday. A lot of people are looking for answers, that have not been very forthcoming in the last few months at times with any detailed responses. We respect you guys and look for justification/answers/reasoning/cookies along the lines of how it used to be more often during the first year but becoming more scarce, objectively.

WhoIsThis

12-17-2011, 06:04 PM

This is getting very, very troubling. A lot of posts have been deleted and threads locked.

After the holidays, I think that we as a community want some sort of a response.

CrimsonTider

12-17-2011, 06:41 PM

This is getting very, very troubling. A lot of posts have been deleted and threads locked.

After the holidays, I think that we as a community want some sort of a response.

I think most of us have earned the right to have those responses sooner.

Silentarrow

12-17-2011, 10:20 PM

Thank you WhoIsThis, for the best post I have ever read on the forums.

mejslll

12-18-2011, 12:11 AM

op - i dont know who you are, i dont know what you do for a living but sts should send you a constulting fee for taking the time to bridge the Gap between players and sts, well said, well said and well said

you have your words put exactlly on the pulse of how we as the characters feel, and should have shed light on that pl is a biz, and sts should make health money for the devs!! if these "things" are implimented i will be the first in line to stay, and sign up to the new benifits.

i am in this only for pvp, and love to take time out to kill bosses and help lower lvl ppl lvl up... i spend 200 - 400 in us dollars a month, and honestly am thinking of not spending any more plat cuz really cant justify the money based on the value i get out of the prestent system (there are some suttle changes i would like to see with vanity, and making end game players not all look the same - and willing to pay for it)

sts i am so impressed with what you guys have done!! keep up the good work - dont let us down!!!

mej

SUPAPRODIGY

12-18-2011, 12:39 AM

this should be a sticky. Imo

WhoIsThis

12-20-2011, 11:43 AM

I think most of us have earned the right to have those responses sooner.

Agreed - the events of the Winter Festival have increased the urgency.

Hans

12-27-2011, 10:14 AM

Hello,

I agree with you 100 %. Good job!

STS have to bring more fresh features in SL and PL.

WhoIsThis

01-09-2012, 05:50 PM

Aikiebo

01-09-2012, 09:39 PM

Hello,

I agree with you 100 %. Good job!

STS have to bring more fresh features in SL and PL.

The real question right now is not whether or not the community believes that PL has stagnated or not. The real question is what (and if) actions will be taken.

No, actually, that is not the real question. Not at all.

That is not the real question right now, it has never been the real question, and if things continue the way they are going, it will never be the real question.

Fncrazy

01-11-2012, 07:23 PM

Aikiebo what was the point of that?
Do u like to hear yourself talk too?

JTZ

01-13-2012, 12:33 AM

A wonderful post, took me a while to read. :P

Arterra

01-13-2012, 01:00 AM

I honestly dont think I have anything to add that has not been brought up or considered. This is a thread from an active, dedicated, actually good player... a dying breed.

I guess I can simply give my opinion on certain issues you bring up, although that is pretty one sided...

-The GoA and AoA situation has frankly been discussed to shreds. If it comes to it all being deleted, well, it was a nice long run. But you cannot deny that some of the members of both programs DO deserve the titles they earned. What we need is a re-evaluation, not a wipe, although that would doubtlessly hurt many, many feelings. Heck, I'll admit to not have being top notch material when I was awarded, though I have since striven for proving it.
-I have not been able to experience anything past sewers, but if it is really being described as "pre Ao3 nerf" then I pity the fools. seriously, if it has been left like that, along with STS' recent drug-pushing habits and an influx of susceptible new players, we have passed the point of no return. They are USED to it now.
-I honestly cannot tell if the devs are or are not up to their old habits of patrolling the forums as they used to. Obviously, they have grown less jaunty and more public-shunning, but there is nothing more player-base-inducing that responsive and accessible developers. How in hell do you think it all started out so well?
-It is really hard to accurately value a virtual item... the value that the owners of valuable stuff put on it is the time spent getting it, and the value that people who dont have it place on it is the abstract and frankly arbitrary price placed by the above owners. We really cant blame it on STS, getting the balance right the first time is nearly impossible, and any subsequent changes are usually resented.

question: is Royce OFFICIALLY gone? He left, came back, left, came back again, etc as far as I can remember, but did it finally get to be too much or what? I honestly owe my own GoAhood to his example to follow...

goddessofpower

01-13-2012, 01:33 AM

What happened? I remember the old pl before grinders were considered "cool". People would meet others from around the world and have nice conversations and level up with each other. No one would be strongly rewarded for grinding.

Pve was full of fun and mildly difficult levels,(why did you take away the original forest haven levels, they contained good memories.)

Pvp I can't talk about because I started about a year into the game:/.

Money didn't make you better. Prices were reasonable. Almost all of the oldies left and alterra was thrown into chaos.

The one thing I've been happy with is the guild system. It is very well organized rank wise.

WhoIsThis

01-14-2012, 07:32 PM

-The GoA and AoA situation has frankly been discussed to shreds. If it comes to it all being deleted, well, it was a nice long run. But you cannot deny that some of the members of both programs DO deserve the titles they earned. What we need is a re-evaluation, not a wipe, although that would doubtlessly hurt many, many feelings. Heck, I'll admit to not have being top notch material when I was awarded, though I have since striven for proving it.
-I have not been able to experience anything past sewers, but if it is really being described as "pre Ao3 nerf" then I pity the fools. seriously, if it has been left like that, along with STS' recent drug-pushing habits and an influx of susceptible new players, we have passed the point of no return. They are USED to it now.
-I honestly cannot tell if the devs are or are not up to their old habits of patrolling the forums as they used to. Obviously, they have grown less jaunty and more public-shunning, but there is nothing more player-base-inducing that responsive and accessible developers. How in hell do you think it all started out so well?

1. A viable option. At this point, though, I have serious doubts about the potential of both programs. GoA I agree there are players that do deserve the distinction and there are those that don't. Perhaps a thorough re-evaluation as you propose should be in order.

2. Nothing truly new has been introduced since guilds. The monsters too look pretty unoriginal.

3. The devs appear to be relatively inactive in threads and far less receptive towards feedback. The winter festival was handled particularly poorly and does not bode well. But yes, I agree that the long term future of PL is very much in doubt.

Jugernugett

01-14-2012, 07:54 PM

U really don't make sense.... XD btw I only have purchased 200 platinum, why u talking about "only"? Let's see how many people have something to say back to me-.-
P.S: everyone

WhoIsThis

01-14-2012, 08:06 PM

I meant "only" as a relatively small figure compared to some hard core players. Note the quotes.

Aikiebo

01-14-2012, 10:15 PM

GoA I agree there are players that do deserve the distinction and there are those that don't.
That is not accurate. All the GoAs deserve the distinction they earned. There were a couple who made some mistakes during Rage Fest. But, people are entitled to make mistakes. We all do. They should not be stripped of their honor.

-----------------------------------------

Nothing truly new has been introduced since guilds.

This is obvioiusly incorrect.

-----------------------------------------

The monsters too look pretty unoriginal.

Who cares, lol. Do you realize that in most games the goblins that attacked us when we were level 6 look exactly like the goblins that attack us at higher levels?

Do you think that the 1 million plus people who play PL every month care that the zombies look the same at high levels as they do in Forest Haven. Why would anyone care about this?

Oh, wait, I know, it is something to complain about.

------------------------------------------

The devs appear to be relatively inactive in threads and far less receptive towards feedback.

Again, totally incorrect. They prove everyday how receptive they are to feedback and how the player's concerns are foremost.

-----------------------------------------

The winter festival was handled particularly poorly and does not bode well.

But yes, I agree that the long term future of PL is very much in doubt.

On this point, I agree with you to some extent. All though, our reasons for feeling this way are different.
Yes, I feel the devs should have handled Rage Fest a bit differently. They should have ended it way, way, waaayyy sooner then they did. Now, I TOTALLY realize the reason they didn't is because they were trying to be decent and show concerns for player's feedback. In other words, they were trying to do the right thing. And look how people treated them.

Devs of other game forums would have ended that mess a lot sooner.

the long term future of PL is very much in doubt.

This is an opinion that is has no basis in reality at all. There is no logic to support this what so ever. There is not one shred of evidence to support this. And quite a few pieces to discredit it. The idea is ridiculous.

WhoIsThis

01-14-2012, 10:37 PM

Aikiebo, what do you have to contribute to this thread but discord? So far you have said that I am incorrect and nothing else. So far, it seems that what you have said has more opinion than anything else. You have said that I am incorrect but have not said anything as to why.

Sapient

01-15-2012, 02:35 PM

Shouldn't it be standard to have re-evaluations on a regular basis? The only reason why I don't seeing it be required is because STS stated that GoA's have no responsibilities other then to not break their honor. AoA should be re-evaluated on a regular basis, because they represent STS in a way and their performance has to stay excellent.

As for any of the GoA's doing something unworthy of the Shield, or something worthy of stripping the shield, I doubt it. I'm gonna use police as comparison. If a police officer does something wrong, do they strip him of his badge? Only if it is a major enough of a mistake. Most officers make their mistakes because they are doing what they think is the right thing. That is what made them want to be a police officer in the first place. Yeah there are a few corrupt ones out there, that is why you do evaluations to root them out.

I don't know any of the GoA's personally, but I have never seen one step out of line. Players have accused Apollo of this during rage fest 2011, but to me it was necessarily. Even though he did slightly take a stand against STS during that, he still provided viable feedback and proved to the community exactly why he earned the Guardian of Alterra status.

WhoIsThis

01-15-2012, 04:22 PM

At this point, it would seem that the existing GoAs are entrenched. Basically, it seems to be one of those things that you get and you can maintain by doing more or less nothing. Whether this is the best solution is a matter of debate. But it seems to be the way that things are.

I'd have to agree though that a thorough re-evaluation is in order or to scrap the program and re-nominate from ground up.

Arcanahasabumrash

01-15-2012, 04:41 PM

TRUTH! I remember when gold potions were 2k each for 2x whatever, and they had an option for speed. Now its 2k for 1.5x . ALL THEY ARE AFTER IS MONEY! I can't even enjoy the game now.

Samhayne

01-15-2012, 05:12 PM

I disagree with scrapping existing GoA. They earned that shield. As a reminder, the GoA program is a "Thank you" one to recognize people who contribute to the community.

Regarding the future of Pocket Legends - we know that fans want new stuff and content is king. I would argue that the future is always in question. Of course if we don't do anything, well then of course growth would be hard to envision. I would point to JustG's 2011/2012 post: http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?47195-A-Look-Back-at-2011-and-Forward-to-a-Rockin%92-2012! PL (and SL) continue to win awards and continue to grow in terms of playerbase.

We really appreciate positive, constructive feedback. There are some great comments in this thread and there are some that are less than great. :)

Regarding premium paid options, Spacetime Studios philosophy with premium options is just that – they are optional. All players can play Pocket Legends from level 1 to the elite level cap without paying any real world money. We appreciate and value all of our players, however they choose to play. As always, thank you for your support.

Conradin

01-15-2012, 05:17 PM

A lot is riding on humania.It will determine for many of us if we stay in this game or move on.

Samhayne

01-15-2012, 05:31 PM

A lot is riding on humania.It will determine for many of us if we stay in this game or move on.

I think it is like that with any of our expansions.

Conradin

01-15-2012, 05:50 PM

I think it is like that with any of our expansions.

true dat- and i guess im still around eh?

WhoIsThis

01-15-2012, 06:57 PM

A lot is riding on humania.It will determine for many of us if we stay in this game or move on.

Indeed it is. Indeed it is.

When Humania comes out, I think that most of the players that have left will give it a shot. If it fails for them, they are probably never coming back. So far, I think the general consensus among most players on the forums is that Nuri's Hallows and Mount Fang have not been what they wanted.

TruePlayer

01-15-2012, 08:13 PM

You actually wrote all of that lol. Nicely done seem like you really care and put alot thought into pocket legends. Hopefully devs will not hold back and give us r money worth ;)

TruePlayer

01-15-2012, 08:21 PM

I think we should be able to farm eachother in pvp. Like if get really lucky get a rare pink drop that person is equiped with. And if get unlucky lose that gear ;). That would be so fun. Honestly people quiting this game cause its too easy and too friendly. There no competition, and no war. Its a fighting game which alot adult play but still seem like it just for the young crowd. Guilds really didnt added anything but just a name, theres other game i play where guild was made very useful and for a purpose. After collecting gold and pvping everybody there nothing much else to do. We need to play against eachother at some
Point.

AbsolutePally

01-15-2012, 08:23 PM

TruePlayer

01-15-2012, 08:33 PM

Ive thoroughly enjoyed this game. I think people forget it is in a phone, mobile, and we can actually interact with the real developers. This game is amazing and has a lot of different enjoyable options so just take it into perspective and be grateful.

Not to mention. The 50 cap was amazing and in the grand scheme of things it is the midway point. More and more is being introduced, slowly. We are just 3 caps away, the filler caps in retrospec away from halfway! More to come guys, dont expect every cap to blow your socks off then again and again. It is a work in progress and one day you will see and understand what these genius people are doing for PL

Greatful itsnt a correct word for all us like you and me we invested alot into this game we expect the best. Thats why there have been alot complaining. Becuase people have spent beyond any game system or any game they have owned r played on pocket legends. And acutally we are the ones paying and the devs like us is
There job to make us happy. R opinion is important.

Sapient

01-15-2012, 11:06 PM

Humania will have to be especially good with the release of World of Midgard's 3rd and semi betas. Make or break time, a lot riding on this particular expansion.

Regarding premium paid options, Spacetime Studios philosophy with premium options is just that – they are optional. All players can play Pocket Legends from level 1 to the elite level cap without paying any real world money. We appreciate and value all of our players, however they choose to play. As always, thank you for your support.

That is a great philosophy, but wouldn't it logically make more sense to give more options? Yes you can get from 1 to elite, but that is such a small part of the game. I know I would be more inclined to spend money if there was a balance between content and optional purchases.

Aikiebo

01-16-2012, 12:36 PM

There is no reason to believe that there is anything 'more' or 'extra' riding on the release of Humania than any other expansion in this game or in any video game ever created.

Most video games have expansions. There is always a lot of anticipation and hope. But this is true for every video game ever made. It is not MORE true for Pocket Legends.

In the history of video games, there has been at least 100 expansions that have failed to live up to expectations. But, there has been at least 1,000 expansions that turned out to be far better than hoped.

There is certainly no consensus that Nuri's and Fang was some how inferior. In fact, the proof proves otherwise.

Playing the game from level 1 thru elite cap IS THE MAIN MOST IMPORTANT part of the game. It is free to play, but, it is not minor, lol. OMG, omg, omg, I couldn't stop laughing when I read that. Playing the game from start to finish is the most important part and it takes far, far, far, far longer to do that than optional paid content.

As far as having more options and also balance between free content and optional content. It is not clear what you mean. But, if you mean that there should be more options for paid content, I agree.

There are really quite a few things that I wish they would add to our options in the plat store.

I have never seen this many complaints over something that is free.

StompArtist

01-16-2012, 01:42 PM

There is certainly no consensus that Nuri's and Fang was some how inferior. In fact, the proof proves otherwise.

Not saying that I agree or disagree with the above statements but would you mind telling me where you got those facts? I am reading through these posts and you seem intent to overwhelm posters with words and opinions stating them as facts when, in fact, they are just this: opinions. Perhaps a disclaimer on your posts would be helpful?

I personally get bothered by facts that are made up on the spot for the sake of winning some internet argument and do not truly contribute to the conversation. Sorry nothing against you and I am sure you have some interesting contributions to make but statements like this tend to make one want to stop reading whatever it is you are attempting to get across to your target audience.

AbsolutePally

01-16-2012, 04:08 PM

Greatful itsnt a correct word for all us like you and me we invested alot into this game we expect the best. Thats why there have been alot complaining. Becuase people have spent beyond any game system or any game they have owned r played on pocket legends. And acutally we are the ones paying and the devs like us is
There job to make us happy. R opinion is important.

No entiendes, habla english? Por favor.

Aikiebo

01-16-2012, 07:09 PM

Stompartist, I am very glad that you brought this up. This is something that I have been thinking about long and hard for a long time.

I agree, that when people present their opinion as if it was some kind of fact. That can help destroy any chance of logical debate.

It is almost as bad when someone presents their opinion, making it clear it is just an opinion, but still not giving any sort of supporting details.

Do you know why many of my posts are so long? It is because, when I make a point. I spend time backing it up. It only takes a few words to make some statement, that is nothing more than an opinion and try to pawn it off as a fact. But, if you take a good look at my long posts, you will see that they are long because I am trying to prove my argument.

I agree, it is not enough to just present opinions that are empty if you are trying to actually make some sort of improvement.

But, again, to make a statement: "Here, this is what I believe", then TO ALSO PROVIDE supporting details, can take a long time.

Just the opinion = short. Opinon plus supporting details = bit longer.

Yes, I agree, that the thing I said that you quoted was an opinion. It is an opinion that obviously I believe to be accurate. But, your right, I didn't give the supporting details. (I did go on to imply that I had proof, but that is a different matter.) Why would I do such a thing?

1. I was trying to show that short posts are very easy to write. You can make all kinds of statements, imply they are facts and never have to provide the supporting details.

2. I was trying to show that, just as you pointed out, that a statement without supporting details is TOTALLY USELESS in a debate.

3. And more than anything else, I was trying to show, that what I was responding to is EXACTLY what you are critisizing me for. An mere personal opinion that is being presented as a fact with no supporting info.

In other words: The point I am making now, is that a giant, huge percentage of the things that are being said in THIS THREAD AND RAGE FEST are nothing more than someone's opinion. And the people who shared these wonderful opinions with us made little or no attempt to try to prove them. Just left them as unsubstantiated opinons.

I have made a spoiler tag. Behind that tag is 14 opinions that someone presented as fact. JUST IN THIS THREAD ALONE. I am sure, I could find 2 or 3 dozen more of these empty opinions in just this thread. None of these opinions have any supporting info. This was the problem with Rage Fest. It was a tiny few people going from thread to thread saying the same thing over and over, never proving or justifying anything. Just getting people all worked up.

In the next post I make, I am actually going to answer your question (why do I say there is no concensus about Nuri's/Fang). Just didn't want to make this post too long.

One last thing (to everyone, not just you Stomp): NO NEED TO FLAME ME with the idea that all opinions are important and valued. I know that. I have said that 100 times. But, if all you do is give an opinion without backing it up. People may not take it seriously. And, they may also basically just say, 'right back at ya' and just give their differing opinion on the same matter without backing it up. If so, a person can't complain.

These are all statements that are presented as facts. But, they are nothing a the person's opinion. The person who said these things didn't offer any facts, data, supporting info, locic, examples or anything to support the opinion.

Please note, my device is on the blink. These were not placed here by cut-n-paste. I retyped going back and forth trying to remember as I typed. If I made any mistakes. Not intentional and I will fix IMMEDIATELY.

The quotes are in italics. My comments are in bold.

1. "I agree that the long-term future of PL is very much in doubt.

How would anyone without the data know this?

2. "The real question right now is not whether or not the community believes that PL has stagnated or not. The real question is what (and if) action will be taken.

No, it's not.

3. "So far, I think the general concensus among most players on the forums is that Nuri Hollows and Mount Fang has not been what they wanted.

There is no concensus.

4. "Humania will have to be especially good with the release of World of Migard's 3rd and semi-betas. Make or break time, a lot is riding on this particular expansion.

Who says? Why does this person think this?

5. "The devs appear to be relatively inactive in threads and far less receptive towards feedback.

Tons of data to show otherwise.

6. "Basically, it seems to be one of those things that you get and you can maintain by doing more or less nothing.

Prove this.

7. "I'd have to agree though, that a thorough re-evaluataion is in order or to scrap the program and re-nominate from the ground up.

Why?

8. "So far you have said that I am incorrect and nothing else. So far, it seems that what you have said is more opinion than anything else.

9. "You have said that I am incorrect but have not said anything as to why.

[B]I did give some reasons. And the point of this is this poster did not give reasons why.

10. "I have serious doubts about the potential of both programs.

Huh?? Why??

11. "Nothing truely new has been introduced since guilds.

Like the rest, this needs to be backed up.

12. "The events of the Winter Fest has increased the urgency.

How so?

13. "As it turns out, people seem to like having slower cap rises.

14. "The quality of the new caps must be epic."

Btw, when I asked a question in bold, I'm not really asking that question now, like I want an answer. The questions are really just examples of what should hve been explained originally.

StompArtist

01-16-2012, 07:54 PM

yes dear

Sapient

01-16-2012, 08:01 PM

1. I was trying to show that short posts are very easy to write. You can make all kinds of statements, imply they are facts and never have to provide the supporting details.

This is a short post.

This is not.

Stompartist, I am very glad that you brought this up. This is something that I have been thinking about long and hard for a long time.

I agree, that when people present their opinion as if it was some kind of fact. That can help destroy any chance of logical debate.

It is almost as bad when someone presents their opinion, making it clear it is just an opinion, but still not giving any sort of supporting details.

Do you know why many of my posts are so long? It is because, when I make a point. I spend time backing it up. It only takes a few words to make some statement, that is nothing more than an opinion and try to pawn it off as a fact. But, if you take a good look at my long posts, you will see that they are long because I am trying to prove my argument.

I agree, it is not enough to just present opinions that are empty if you are trying to actually make some sort of improvement.

But, again, to make a statement: "Here, this is what I believe", then TO ALSO PROVIDE supporting details, can take a long time.

Just the opinion = short. Opinon plus supporting details = bit longer.

Yes, I agree, that the thing I said that you quoted was an opinion. It is an opinion that obviously I believe to be accurate. But, your right, I didn't give the supporting details. (I did go on to imply that I had proof, but that is a different matter.) Why would I do such a thing?

1. I was trying to show that short posts are very easy to write. You can make all kinds of statements, imply they are facts and never have to provide the supporting details.

2. I was trying to show that, just as you pointed out, that a statement without supporting details is TOTALLY USELESS in a debate.

3. And more than anything else, I was trying to show, that what I was responding to is EXACTLY what you are critisizing me for. An mere personal opinion that is being presented as a fact with no supporting info.

In other words: The point I am making now, is that a giant, huge percentage of the things that are being said in THIS THREAD AND RAGE FEST are nothing more than someone's opinion. And the people who shared these wonderful opinions with us made little or no attempt to try to prove them. Just left them as unsubstantiated opinons.

I have made a spoiler tag. Behind that tag is 14 opinions that someone presented as fact. JUST IN THIS THREAD ALONE. I am sure, I could find 2 or 3 dozen more of these empty opinions in just this thread. None of these opinions have any supporting info. This was the problem with Rage Fest. It was a tiny few people going from thread to thread saying the same thing over and over, never proving or justifying anything. Just getting people all worked up.

In the next post I make, I am actually going to answer your question (why do I say there is no concensus about Nuri's/Fang). Just didn't want to make this post too long.

One last thing (to everyone, not just you Stomp): NO NEED TO FLAME ME with the idea that all opinions are important and valued. I know that. I have said that 100 times. But, if all you do is give an opinion without backing it up. People may not take it seriously. And, they may also basically just say, 'right back at ya' and just give their differing opinion on the same matter without backing it up. If so, a person can't complain.

These are all statements that are presented as facts. But, they are nothing a the person's opinion. The person who said these things didn't offer any facts, data, supporting info, locic, examples or anything to support the opinion.

Please note, my device is on the blink. These were not placed here by cut-n-paste. I retyped going back and forth trying to remember as I typed. If I made any mistakes. Not intentional and I will fix IMMEDIATELY.

The quotes are in italics. My comments are in bold.

1. "I agree that the long-term future of PL is very much in doubt.

How would anyone without the data know this?

2. "The real question right now is not whether or not the community believes that PL has stagnated or not. The real question is what (and if) action will be taken.

No, it's not.

3. "So far, I think the general concensus among most players on the forums is that Nuri Hollows and Mount Fang has not been what they wanted.

There is no concensus.

4. "Humania will have to be especially good with the release of World of Migard's 3rd and semi-betas. Make or break time, a lot is riding on this particular expansion.

Who says? Why does this person think this?

5. "The devs appear to be relatively inactive in threads and far less receptive towards feedback.

Tons of data to show otherwise.

6. "Basically, it seems to be one of those things that you get and you can maintain by doing more or less nothing.

Prove this.

7. "I'd have to agree though, that a thorough re-evaluataion is in order or to scrap the program and re-nominate from the ground up.

Why?

8. "So far you have said that I am incorrect and nothing else. So far, it seems that what you have said is more opinion than anything else.

9. "You have said that I am incorrect but have not said anything as to why.

[B]I did give some reasons. And the point of this is this poster did not give reasons why.

10. "I have serious doubts about the potential of both programs.

Huh?? Why??

11. "Nothing truely new has been introduced since guilds.

Like the rest, this needs to be backed up.

12. "The events of the Winter Fest has increased the urgency.

How so?

13. "As it turns out, people seem to like having slower cap rises.

14. "The quality of the new caps must be epic."

Btw, when I asked a question in bold, I'm not really asking that question now, like I want an answer. The questions are really just examples of what should hve been explained originally.

Fact.

Fncrazy

01-16-2012, 10:06 PM

Aikiebo I got a fact for you. That post was way to long.

WhoIsThis

01-18-2012, 05:40 PM

It's not the length of the posts Aikiebo - it's the quality of content in the posts. If long posts were hated, then my first 2 posts by that logic should be reviled.

I'm gonna have to ask you - in those 2 long posts, what have you said? And could it be condensed?