Can I get a dev to answer these questions?

[Fncrazy]

Are the bears skills gonna be revamped or not?

I ask this for several reasons. Most are pvp related.

Bears are not good at end game pvp. Really good birds own bears. It should be a fair fight and there should never be a reason for me a big bad bear to have to kite a little chicken.

Beckons is the only 12m skill a bear has that does dmg unless there is a way to taunt someone to death that I don't know about. I suggest that u start the revamp by making hell scream and stomp 12m skills and making all other bears skills 5m. Then we can go from there.

If the skills don't need revamped then the str sets do. There is no reason for me a tank to have only 17 more armor than the mage set. There is no reason for my bear to have 20 mana regen. Move it down to 4 or 5 and give me something a bear needs. IDC if a mage or Bird can't use my set because of low mana. I'm a tank and I want my set to be made for me.

Finally, If you are not going to revamp the bear skills or sets, and this hurts me to say because I hate being a (chicken)bird, then I would like for my vanity set that I've earned made stashable with lvl requirements, so I can also enjoy and dominate endgame pvp like most good (chickens)birds do.

Trying to bring the bear back!!!

[CrimsonTider]

Hey bro, been doing A LOT of thinking on this lately and here are a few thoughts/concerns I have:

1. Change in gear stats. This would be the simplest, most logical fix. A decrease in mana regen and increase in hit % is what a lot of us have been asking for a while now. A slight increase in 1h weapon damage would be nice to help pump our skill damage to be more effective as well. Con: Would only make pallys/warbirds more powerful.

2. Class specific gear. Now, before the spazoids start freaking out, please read the entire paragraph. With the rise in pally and warbirds, pvp has become much more monotonous. What I mean is, if anyone has ever entered a CTF match when 9/10 players are equipped with strength gear: it gets old really quick. Now, I am not, NOT, in favor of these changes. However, it is an option to allow for better class balance and would also allow the changes in point 1 to be more effective. Con: There would be a MAJOR fallout unless bear gear got a major overhaul at all levels.

3. Skill revamping. This topic has been highly suggested by multiple bear lovers and Ellyidol has mad numerous threads to provide ideas and feedback to the community. Currently, bears have two ranged attacks: Beckon and Stomp. All of the other classes have at least five and when combined with higher hit percentages, place a huge disadvantage to our class. Suggestions like giving Beckon a 100% success rate and adding ranged skills in place of useless skills like Restore would be a beginning. Con: A revamp of skills would change the dynamics of tactics for a bear in all aspects and could destroy low level pvp for this class.

There are a lot of ideas out there and no ONE simple solution. I do, however, agree it is time for a change. Lack of effectiveness in pvp and the rise of elixirs in pve is causing our class to become less useful and even more less visible.

[Fncrazy]

Good post crim.

I do think if they make str sets with low enough mana regen mages and birds would run out of mana during fights and die. So I'm not sure if it would be a problem with them being overpowered.

I forgot one thing in my first post.

Sometimes when I beckon a bird they get the stun stars but they don't move. Or when they do move they are still able to lay down 2 or 3 skills and kill me with some crazy combo. All a chicken should be doing if my beckon hits is screaming for his life on his way to certain death.

Some feed back from the dev team would be nice guys.

[Ellyidol]

Fn, glad you decided to start another thread, hopefully we can get a lot more discussion done on here.

Like Crim, I also agree. However, again like what Crim said, I am a strong believer in the skill changes of the bear. I'm learning more and more that gear change is not the way to go for PL.

If strength gear is changed, both hybrid classes (warbird and pally) will benefit more from these changes than a bear ever will. If MS is reduced to 4/5, although it's not enough to sustain a bird/mage, I can only imagine how good they will be in duels where you do not need constantly high MS since they finish relatively quick (less so on str vs str).

That said, in order to buff up the bear without touching the other two classes, specific changes have to be made to the bear itself, be it stats or skills. I am inclined to skills since birds and mages have strength as well.

There are heaps of probable new or different skill suggestions, what are yours?

Personally, I've always believed that a warrior (bear) has a skill that "Rushes or Charges" to the opponent; not the other way around. However, I also know that Beckon is the definition of bear PvE - without it, there's really nothing else for a bear to do in PvE. Consequently, I believe that given a choice between being a PvE/PvP bear is essential; you either Charge (PvP) or you Beckon (PvE). A lot has to do with skill trees, skill diversities, and skill specialization.

Also, Crim, I see your point that a skill revamp will definitely change the bear gameplay (PvE and PvP) throughout all levels. However, with all due respect to any twinkers out there (myself included), I strongly disagree that twinking should be any type of priority when it comes to class balance. If anything, twinking should adjust to the class balances.

I would love to have my bear back as well, even if its the only character I really play :p

[Fncrazy]

My skill suggestions:

1. Charge, but only if I get to keep beckon with it.
2. Run faster power, would be great to stay ahead of pack in pve
3. Turn some slashes into blade throws

[RedRyder]

I've never played bears outside of twink pvp, but I have suggestions as far as skills go, that would pertain to all classes.

Instead of new skills that would be unlocked in end levels, perhaps skill books that drop that would add effects to skills. An example would be gaining a book that would add the throwing effect to slash for bears. To add more of a challenge toward obtaining skill books and more incentive toward farming, make the skill books crafted items. The pages would drop, ink (in case of mt fang perhaps vampire blood ink dropppets?, hard book covers and deciphering specs?

It wouldn't be unfair advantages since its be the equivalent of obtaining better gear to get the edge on pve/pvp.

Thoughts?

[WhoIsThis]

Bears right now are very powerful at FFA and CTF, but are quite weak at 1v1. To be honest, I'm not sure how to apply a buff or for that matter if a buff is needed. Right now, the class at level cap that needs it the most IMO are dex birds.

[Fncrazy]

You wouldn't think that if you were a bear getting owned by a bird in 1vs1.

[CrimsonTider]

Also, Crim, I see your point that a skill revamp will definitely change the bear gameplay (PvE and PvP) throughout all levels. However, with all due respect to any twinkers out there (myself included), I strongly disagree that twinking should be any type of priority when it comes to class balance. If anything, twinking should adjust to the class balances.

I would love to have my bear back as well, even if its the only character I really play :p

I completely agree. I twink for two main reasons: farming and playing a more relevant bear. If endgame bears were to get a revamp, my use for twink bears would be specifically for farming.

[CrimsonTider]

Bears right now are very powerful at FFA and CTF, but are quite weak at 1v1. To be honest, I'm not sure how to apply a buff or for that matter if a buff is needed. Right now, the class at level cap that needs it the most IMO are dex birds.

Sorry for the double post.... I'm slower posting on my phone.

As someone who pvp/pves with bear and bird, bears are muchvmore in need. Just my opinion tho.

[WhoIsThis]

You wouldn't think that if you were a bear getting owned by a bird in 1vs1.

As it stands, the changes proposed here would significantly alter game balance and not necessarily in bear favor. Keeping in mind that changes in str gear affect warbirds and pallies, it may very well be that they make relative gains to bears. I should mention by "very powerful" in my earlier post I really mean borderline OP.

Second, the disadvantage bears have is not that large - basically for a bear it comes down to if beckon hits, they are probably going to win against all but the very best birds. If we consider the net effect, bears are reasonably well balanced. I have seen good bears give some good birds (and mages) quite the whipping. Remember, bears have 76 dodge (with ring and buffs) and the very potent smash combo, so there is a lot of potential.

Right now, warbird and wand int mage are relatively OP. Pally and bear IMO are fine. Dex bird needs a buff though, preferably to crit much more than bears do right now. Staff mage needs a buff relative to wand mage as well, perhaps to damage. Contrast this to demonic strongman, where bears and warbirds were OP. I haven't seen many dex bears, but I'd hesitate to guess that they would likely do better than their str counterparts and all other things being equal, perhaps win most fights. Dex bears would also benefit from the crit buff I propose.

Edit:
I should mention that all of these observations are at level cap.

[Fncrazy]

Whoisthis I like ur reads and ur opinion, but by ur comments u haven't played bear in awhile. A bear gets destroyed in dex gear. Winning and losing shouldn't be decided by the chance beckon hits or misses, and I don't just want a chance to beat good birds I want to chance to beat the best birds.

[Fncrazy]

Plus if bears skills were fine there would be more of us bears still playing end game pvp.

Like I said in my first post lets start with increasing the range of the skills we got and go from there.

[FluffNStuff]

There is a lot of talk here about other classes using 'bear gear', as it used be great for high armor, but not sure if people have noticed that trend has been erased in Mt. Fang:
Leather: 67 Armor, Plate 70 Armor, Robe 71 Armor
Wing: 54 Armor, Shield: 56 Armor, Bracer: 55 Armor
Hat: 45 Armor, Helm: 47 Armor, Cowl: 47 Armor

Now Lets look at Uncrafted Sewer Armor for a comparison:
Leather: 46 Armor, Plate 58 Armor, Robe 55 Amor
Wing: 28 Armor, Shield: 47 Armor, Bracer: 33 Armor
Cap: 21 Armor, Helm: 34 Armor, Cowl: 28 Armor

As you can see, in the sewers the Bear had a 44 Armor Advantage over the Bird and a 23 Armor advantage over the Mage, and that advantage is gone in Mt. Fang. So now a bear using a mele weapon has the same armor as range classes? This is both good and bad for a bear. The reason it is good, is because most bears have at least half dex for hit percentage. This means you can make your own bonus by using both bear and bird gear. This is bad because a bear would have to tear through 200 points of armor just to get a single damage, and they only have two (unlisted) armor reductions and those account for 10 points each. Bears simply do not have the damage potential to cut through that. Add to that the mage mana shield (which BIRDS can break, why can't bears?) and it becomes a pretty useless fight.

Oh, so whining done, here are my suggestions:
Becon needs to NOT be affected by hit percentage.
M/S on Bear Gear needs to be DODGE
Bears need more Armor Breaking Potential
Bears Need a way to drop Mage Mana Shield.
Mages need to NOT be able to heal debuffs in PVP.
Stun NEEDS TO STOP SKILLS!

[WhoIsThis]

Whoisthis I like ur reads and ur opinion, but by ur comments u haven't played bear in awhile. A bear gets destroyed in dex gear. Winning and losing shouldn't be decided by the chance beckon hits or misses, and I don't just want a chance to beat good birds I want to chance to beat the best birds.

Actually, I just played within 4 hours of logging in. I have fought a level 66 bear who managed to get a lot of damage inflicted with exactly dex gear (level 65 crafted sanguine) just days ago, so I am not 100% sold on the idea that crafted sanguine is unsuitable.

No I do not have a bear at the high level, but if you think about it, winning has for a long time been dictated by exactly whether or not beckon misses or hits. The exception was during the strongman period where bears were so powerful that it did not matter. I don't think that changing gear would help.

With dodge at 76%, there's little room to buff without making something OP. Buffing armor would make warbirds (and likely pallies) OP, as would buffing H/S. Buffing hit% doesn't solve the fundamental problem. If you were to make bears better at 1v1, they'd be so powerful that they would be OP in FFA and CTF.

Bears need a change to their skills it seems.

[Fncrazy]

It's funny that the only one against any of these suggestions is not a bear and doesn't play a bear. I do not want the bear to be overpowered, but I do want all 1v1 to be even , and right now they are not.

[Nick41324]

I never could understand why mages got their buffs so late. It makes it impossible to win against a dex bear with rage. If mages could get their attack buff at a low lvl and their def buff at lvl 16.... I don't see why not. It only makes it fair against a bear fight.

[Fncrazy]

Good point man, but this is for end game pvp.

[Ellyidol]

Nice perspective Fluff, haven't seen the armor angle as well as now.

To be honest, Nick has a point. It almost sounds like a good idea to have all skills semi-standardized between all three classes. Eg. All buffs come as last three skills, all regen skills come early, damage skills alternate between AoE/single target, etc. it may even help even out the irregularities of twink levels. I know that anything in the range of 10-20 is almost purely bear dominant due to Rage being available so early.

[Xazic]

Taunt someone to death!! Lmfao made me laugh so bad... *dries tears of laugh*

[Duped]

Whoisthis is the ONLY person I know who thinks that bears will win if beckon hits. I don't pvp much, but I know when I do, my bear is far worse at it, and I know that pvp is def. favored to mages and birds, for the reasons stated here. I also think a bear should have both a charge and a beckon. I know that being "stunned" by a charging bear seems very plausible to me :)

[Ellyidol]

Whoisthis is the ONLY person I know who thinks that bears will win if beckon hits. I don't pvp much, but I know when I do, my bear is far worse at it, and I know that pvp is def. favored to mages and birds, for the reasons stated here. I also think a bear should have both a charge and a beckon. I know that being "stunned" by a charging bear seems very plausible to me :)

In Elf's defense though, it can go both ways. A successful Beckon can spell victory, it sometimes cannot.

A lot of RNG comes into play on a bear; dodge and crit. If you don't dodge, you die. If you don't crit, you don't kill. A bit worse on crit since if you don't have Hit in the first place, you don't land anything.

[Elyseon]

Seriously beckon makes a bear, i cant tell u how many times ive gone for initial beckon it gets dodge and they run away after debuffing my hit, armour, and dodge, beckon is the only kite reducing skill bears have, we need like a throw skill that roota or something.

Also why is int gear so ridiculously high on armour?

[WhoIsThis]

Whoisthis is the ONLY person I know who thinks that bears will win if beckon hits. I don't pvp much, but I know when I do, my bear is far worse at it, and I know that pvp is def. favored to mages and birds, for the reasons stated here. I also think a bear should have both a charge and a beckon. I know that being "stunned" by a charging bear seems very plausible to me :)


In Elf's defense though, it can go both ways. A successful Beckon can spell victory, it sometimes cannot.

A lot of RNG comes into play on a bear; dodge and crit. If you don't dodge, you die. If you don't crit, you don't kill. A bit worse on crit since if you don't have Hit in the first place, you don't land anything.

To begin with, I have observed hundreds of bear fights, and have fought many bears.

I should emphasize the most - there are going to be cases where the target dodges a lot or where the beckon misses, the bear crits a lot. On the other hand, if the bear's beckon misses, the bird can simply back away, repulse or root (2 roots available), so even with a bear with 76 dodge, it's very probable that they can bombard at a distance, whereas the bear needs to close within 4m to unload their slashes. If the beckon hits, things can get tough for the bird ... true they still can root (not as useful because bear skills like SMS can root), but they are stuck and have to move fast (hence my emphasis on all but the best - good birds will be able to react quickly, unless the bear is lucky on the dodges, which at 76 I suppose is not too hard).

This is a non-issue in FFA and CTF where the bear will have support, but in 1v1, it is a challenge.



Seriously beckon makes a bear, i cant tell u how many times ive gone for initial beckon it gets dodge and they run away after debuffing my hit, armour, and dodge, beckon is the only kite reducing skill bears have, we need like a throw skill that roota or something.

Also why is int gear so ridiculously high on armour?

Technically bear skills can "root" with the some of the slashes and other moves.

This current cap seems to favor int gear, although it has also been very kind to warbirds. Int gear has high armor and high crit. By contrast, the demonic strongmans favored str gear and the 55 days favored custom birds.