1.7.5 Content Update (75561)

[Elyseon]

Hey PL can u add a tin beggars cup shield for u poor folks?

Actually, some of us just don't have daddy's money to spend. Some of us actually have families to support, and have an income that we have to save. I find it disgusting that they're letting you be an ambassador for the new players, when you can't even use proper grammar. Go max out daddy's credit card

Oh sry that was supposed to say 'us' definately meant to include me. Sry I will fix that now

[adidaman]

Oh sry that was supposed to say 'us' definately meant to include me. Sry I will fix that now

Sorry. I'll edit my post in that case. I'm just very heated on that subject. Sorry for the misunderstanding

[Lowellpimpd]

to quote the poet uncle scrooge baaaaaa baaaa humbug

[Rubikin]

Thank you STS for giving us some new toys and nice decorations! From a merching aspect, I like that the Winter gear will not be as abundant as the Halloween gear, and will retain some value.
I feel for those who cannot afford to spend on plat, and am questioning how much I'm willing to put into this game. But like it or not, STS's current business model depends on charging for premium content, and they are still trying to figure out the optimal way to make money while keeping customers happy. Hopefully they'll take all of these complaints and come up with a compromise that makes them money while providing more perceived value to the players for future events. I personally don't mind the per run model. 2 plat just feels like a lot. I'd feel like I was getting more value at 1 plat per run or the ability to buy access for a period of time.

[mackjack]

The force of delete is strong in this thread.

[Imacoolbirdd]

Are any devs even reading this? Because i think no one is.

[oxy]

Well i think this is not really nice from devs , but dont forget they brought this cool game to us.....
so be grateful they are doing amazing job....

[mackjack]

Are any devs even reading this? Because i think no one is.

With the speed that posts are deleted and a certain poster banned? Yeah, the devs are reading this thread.

It remains to be seen if they'll take all the complaints seriously and actually do something about them. Frankly, I dont have any high hopes of that happening at this point.

[Duped]

Are any devs even reading this? Because i think no one is.

I'm sure they are reading, but unless there is a change of heart, I think the answer they gave is basically the response (see JustG on page 2 or 3?). I've continued to read every post, because I'm hoping there is a different response.

Also @Red, the solution has been given IMO, the solution that has got STS to where it is today, a flat fee for unlimited access. My old fishing buddy always said "Dance with the one that brung ya." Doesn't seem so hard.

[mafiainc42]

How much on average are we expecting the players to spend? This free game is starting to cost more than a XBOX360 game every 2 weeks...
Ikr I might b new to the forums but not to the game, I could of bought 3 ps3 & 3 xbox360s with what ive spent on platnium..ughhhhhh.

[Rare]

I'm sure they are reading, but unless there is a change of heart, I think the answer they gave is basically the response (see JustG on page 2 or 3?). I've continued to read every post, because I'm hoping there is a different response.

Also @Red, the solution has been given IMO, the solution that has got STS to where it is today, a flat fee for unlimited access. My old fishing buddy always said "Dance with the one that brung ya." Doesn't seem so hard.

Lets be honest. What could they do now? It would be a PL PR nightmare if they made it unlimited access. The sky would fall for the people who have already spent a great deal of plat for the holiday event.

[angeldawn]

I decided to wait before making this post because to see if my feelings changed and I have to unfortunately they didn't.

Im very saddened by the actions of STS. There have been minor things in the past that have bothered me (early release of fang, screwing me out of hundreds of plat on my bear with 70k xp) however, I have always defended and supported STS.

2 plat per boss kill!!! Just doesnt feel right. A flat fee feels more appropriate. It upsets me even more when I think of all the kids that play the game and may get the chance to run the maps maybe twice.

The absolute worst part of this is to add salt to my wounds!!!!! I feel some of the developers continue to offend and insult their loyal and paying fans! Do u really think we arent intelligent enough to comprehend your a business and need to make a profit. Additionally, stop insulting me please by saying ppl want everything for free. If that were the case why have I spent hundreds upon hundreds of dollars on your game. Please pull my plat purchases to confirm that last sentence. I spent the money cuz I can and wanted to show support especially since so many others can't or won't.

As for ppl who say the maps are for farmers to get rich. I love grinding and I love farming! However, I'm a hoarder and rarely ever sell anything and my toons are broke. But I do give plenty of items to my friends and kids.

I could continue to go on but I guess its just better to say I very happy I got SWTOR early access yesterday and I plan to not purchase anymore plat from STS and only come on to see friends. I was planning to still grind and hit level caps but after this don't think my heart will ever be in it again.

Much love to my friend I have made in game. You all made the game fun for me. Sorry to see it all go this way.


**please forgive the inevitable typos and grammar, I'm using my phone and full of emotions**

[Redbridge]

Lets be honest. What could they do now? It would be a PL PR nightmare if they made it unlimited access. The sky would fall for the people who have already spent a great deal of plat for the holiday event.

Like someone suggested earlier... They could allow every account/toon one daily (or a one off) access to the content. Everything else stays the same. people who have paid still get the freebie, so no-one could moan about that could they. SOme players who weren't keen might actually spend on a few extra tickets/passes once they see the drops, etc.

It would mean people get to see the content for free and decide whether they want to pay for more. There aren't lots of heavy (free) farmers flooding the market and everyone gets to 'participate'

Personally a one off free access per toon would be nice but I'm bias, I got more than one.

[drewcapu]

The colors on the PJs look toooooooooooooooootally off.

[StompArtist]

The colors on the PJs look toooooooooooooooootally off.

Spandex does that when in the wrong light :-)

[drewcapu]

SL WF gives xp/kills while PL WF does not.

Which is correct?

[Disko]

New update today with no addressing this sitch... I'm not boycotting the holiday action, just lining the coffers like a good addicted automaton... But I am still disappointed and still hoping that they will do something to make this right. We are STILL waiting devs! We (some of us) have faith in you!!

Lastly, whats with the digs on farmers, guys? Who cares whether someone wants to keep the gear or sell it? I'm personally thankful for the 'heavy' farmers, otherwise all the fun holiday gear would just get hoarded away and/or cost $2mil per pink..!

Happy Holidaze! Fix the 2 plat per entry pls!!

[Imacoolbirdd]

well if they are reading this i think they are ignoring what everyone wants.

[Appleisaac]

Lets be honest. What could they do now? It would be a PL PR nightmare if they made it unlimited access. The sky would fall for the people who have already spent a great deal of plat for the holiday event.

They could lower drop rates... That way those who spent tons on farming would still have many more pinks then the rest of us...

[Swimmingstar]

Did they stop posting?

[Justg]

Did they stop posting?

Still listening, just not posting as much. Drop rates in WF are huge, if you want to farm it over and over to sell your pinks to other players, by all means do so. If you want to get in and out and score a few nice holiday items, it should not cost you too much at all.

[Sassinya]

Boycott ended when i logged in for the first time since last night's winter town caper. When what to my wandering eye should appear? A miniature bottle filled bout to here.
Turns out since I didn't get credit for killing KillJoy, I still had over three hours of level access left!
Now I haven't received a holiday drop off any snowmen but I can still go and help my kids get their wings too!!

[MightyMicah]

I have to agree with justG its not gonna cost much at all. Especially if you use the luck elixar. Granted that cost some, however you will get a pink like every round. (I know this from talking with others ingame) although I do say, its gonna cost way more than last year...

[Appleisaac]

I have to agree with justG its not gonna cost much at all. Especially if you use the luck elixar. Granted that cost some, however you will get a pink like every round. (I know this from talking with others ingame) although I do say, its gonna cost way more than last year...

Every round?...

[Moogerfooger]

Still listening, just not posting as much. Drop rates in WF are huge, if you want to farm it over and over to sell your pinks to other players, by all means do so. If you want to get in and out and score a few nice holiday items, it should not cost you too much at all.

Drop rates or not, you still have not addressed the whole pay-per-instance issue. You are setting a dangerous precedent that have a lot of people very nervous about the direction of the game - which has already been going in a certain direction that we mostly accept due to we are not so dumb as to not realize you are a business first. However, a lot of your loyal long-time players are waiting to see what happens here.

[Moogerfooger]

I have to agree with justG its not gonna cost much at all. Especially if you use the luck elixar. Granted that cost some, however you will get a pink like every round. (I know this from talking with others ingame) although I do say, its gonna cost way more than last year...

You forget that a lot of people do not have the plat to spend 2 on every round. It may not seem like much to an adult, and yes there is Tapjoy to help a little bit, but Tapjoy offers are not endless either. Not to mention many of these players cannot afford the pretty expensive and not proven super-effective Luck Elixirs constantly either.

[Nick41324]

JustG, can the WF be free on christmas day?

No need to reply, but at least give it some consideration.

[noobmigo]

JustG, can the WF be free on christmas day?

No need to reply, but at least give it some consideration.

That'd be some good PR.
Wikipedia "Bread and Circuses"

[MightyMicah]

Moogerfooger, notice I said "cost" implying there is a cost. I agree 100% with what you said. I'm only stating that when you are spending it won't cost too much. The main thing I hate is the concept itself. If it ever progreses further than this one instance, you can count me out.

Edit: @appleisaac not every round "like every round" lol that means about 3/4

[Slush]

The 500 plat vanity was just a test to see how much some people are willing to cough up. It's funny how the same people who are complaining now are the same people who bought the 500 plat vanity.

[WhoIsThis]

The 500 plat vanity was just a test to see how much some people are willing to cough up. It's funny how the same people who are complaining now are the same people who bought the 500 plat vanity.

To be honest, I'm not complaining about the 500 plat vanity. If people were crazy enough to pay that much for a vanity item ... well, so be it. So long as it has no stats, it's not really a problem.

What is a problem is that we are now seeing content restricted by platinum and that we have to pay for each run. That is, in most people's mind's unacceptable. It's one thing to charge for elixirs (which are optional) or to charge a one-time fee for unlimited access. It's another thing entirely to charge for every run.

[MightyMicah]

^diddo. Well put Whoisthis.

[derricks2]

JustG, can the WF be free on christmas day?

No need to reply, but at least give it some consideration.

To be perfectly honest, this would probably make matters worse.

If you think about it, they are not saying anything about what they intend to do about this. So, if they say it will be free on xmas, then all the people who ARE spending plat will not and simply wait until xmas to do their running. As such, if they continue to keep quit and DO make it free on xmas, all the people who spend 100s of plat on a hand-full of runs will be extremely upset that now its free for a day and had they known they wouldn't have invested all that plat, they would have waited for the free day. The last thing that they want to do is piss off the people that are paying right now.

As it is, theirs a bunch of pissed of players who arent paying for runs. If they make it free on christmas, they appease the people not "contributing to their business" (in other words make them money), and really pissing off the only people who ARE making them money by duping them into paying first, then making it free without letting them know beforhand.

To be honest, I feel like that would be a horrible decision by them. They need to make a decision and stick with it. Personally I think the 2p a run thing is a joke, especially since this is last years content with new loot tables.

[Southriver]

The devs lock down fourms and sat to send our feed back here but were getting ignored with the same answer. I'm not buying plat from STS i'm downloading it off tapjoy

[WhoIsThis]

This post has been copied from here at the request of Pandar:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?45724-Is-the-winter-campaign-a-precendent-for-future-campaigns-Dev-response-urgent.


The winter campaign employed a model where people would have to pay per run. Reception of this has been very poor, and the pink drop rates are not enough in the eyes of many players for compensation.

I find this one ironic. Earlier today, a player called csb told me that PvP players were all platinum burners and that is why they were skilled. I laughed in real life when I read his reply - it demonstrated a total ignorance of PvP. Platinum does not buy skill in either PvP nor PvE. But, for this campaign, csb's accusation that anybody that farmed a lot of the winter campaign would be a platinum spending "elite" holds true. Players are being charged by the run. I don't mean to pick on this player, but he/she does raise an important point, although not in PvP, but rather the Winter campaign.

In future campaigns (and holiday events), will we have to pay platinum for each run or will the main spine remain free (or accessible for a one-time purchase of platinum?)

Most players are willing to pay a reasonable amount of platinum for high quality content (see my long thread as to what defines high quality content) provided that they feel that they get their money's worth.

Edit:
What we are not willing to do is to pay for each run - this is simply prohibitive and unrealistic.

[Elyseon]

Did they stop posting?

Still listening, just not posting as much. Drop rates in WF are huge, if you want to farm it over and over to sell your pinks to other players, by all means do so. If you want to get in and out and score a few nice holiday items, it should not cost you too much at all.


My pink cost me about 44 plat (luck elixir and over 10 runs)


Also the 500 plat crown is totally different it was a one time payment for the best designed vanity IMO. What they are doing now is like if they rented the omnipotent crown out for 100 plat a day.

[Slush]

To be honest, I'm not complaining about the 500 plat vanity. If people were crazy enough to pay that much for a vanity item ... well, so be it. So long as it has no stats, it's not really a problem.

What is a problem is that we are now seeing content restricted by platinum and that we have to pay for each run. That is, in most people's mind's unacceptable. It's one thing to charge for elixirs (which are optional) or to charge a one-time fee for unlimited access. It's another thing entirely to charge for every run.

I know, but what I'm saying is that the people who bought the vanity spurred on STS to make the WF cost plat per run, as well as many other decisions unfavoured by most of the community. I think you misread or misunderstood my post, feel free to correct me however.

[Elyseon]

To be honest, I'm not complaining about the 500 plat vanity. If people were crazy enough to pay that much for a vanity item ... well, so be it. So long as it has no stats, it's not really a problem.

What is a problem is that we are now seeing content restricted by platinum and that we have to pay for each run. That is, in most people's mind's unacceptable. It's one thing to charge for elixirs (which are optional) or to charge a one-time fee for unlimited access. It's another thing entirely to charge for every run.

I know, but what I'm saying is that the people who bought the vanity spurred on STS to make the WF cost plat per run, as well as many other decisions unfavoured by most of the community. I think you misread or misunderstood my post, feel free to correct me however.

Nah I think it all started with the plat elixir system

[WhoIsThis]

I know, but what I'm saying is that the people who bought the vanity spurred on STS to make the WF cost plat per run, as well as many other decisions unfavoured by most of the community. I think you misread or misunderstood my post, feel free to correct me however.

I'd have to agree with Elyseon. Platinum elixirs were more like a pay per run kind of thing - or should I say pay per hour.

500 platinum is a one time expense that you never have to worry about again, assuming you even buy it (I didn't for obvious reasons).

There were people chugging elixirs before the 500 plat vanity. I think that the main decline started with Nuri - a level clearly intended for elixir usage.

[Protank]

It's just seems like sts would make more $ if they charged a one time fee like last year.

I can't see the #'s so I have no idea.

it just doesn't seem like this would be good for business.

[Pandamoni]

First, I'd like to preface my post by saying I've typed two responses and deleted them both after sitting on them for hours. I found myself rambling and couldn't understand why and then I realized it's because I'm all over the place with how I feel about the direction of the game. I can't really address how I feel about the WF this year without touching on how I feel about the game.

When I first started playing PL I was impressed by the diversity between levels. I loved the creativity I saw and I had no idea what I'd see next. It was exciting and new and fun. It was enough to pull me in and hook me.

I have not spent money on video games, aside from exercise games for my Wii, in my adult life but when I hit level 13 I bought the main spine without hesitation. I was glad I bought it and I continued to buy the other maps in order to access the really cool content. I felt that my money was well spent and I couldn't believe that this great little game was so much fun.

I started perusing the forums in order to learn my skills. Because I'd never played a video game like this I had no idea what I was doing and wanted to learn how to allocate skill points, etc. I would browse the forums for hours reading guides, learning more about my character and learning how to be a better player. In the process I found a community that was thriving with active players who were full of advice and knowledge and a palpable love of the game.

I was also shocked to see the game developers actively participating in threads. What I felt was almost like a big family. I come from a very close family so seeing this mutual respect between the developers and players (and the players seemed like more than players--they were contributors to the game whose ideas were respected by the devs) made me feel all warm and fuzzy. I'd see Asommers in town talking to people, having fun, showing off his yeti costume or alien costume and it was just really cool.

Eventually, though, the devs became more distant and much less visible. Rather than seeing the team on the boards the collective voice of the devs was spoken through Samhayne. Concerns were quickly shut down with, "please leave feedback here_____ and we will look at all concerns", with very little follow up. I can't speak for everyone but it began to feel that we were being dismissed.

I can understand some of the business decisions because, obviously, you do have a business you are growing. I get that. What I don't understand is where the creative content went. In the past you may have been charging too little for what you gave us (the creative content all the way up to AO3) but you did a complete 180 and started charging WAY too much for content that was inferior. I've seen people argue on the boards that creating more diverse dungeons would be cost prohibitive but I know beyond a doubt STS is making much more money than in the past, when the content was amazingly creative.

I think what you are seeing recently is negativity due to the feeling that we are being expected to pay money for what many feel is not great content. To take it a step further, many of us feel you are charging PL players obscene amounts of platinum in order to fund your other projects. This wouldn't be horrible if you were actually providing new content that was mind boggling but that hasn't been the case. Many of us who play PL are not interested in playing SL or DL so having to pay to fund the creation of games that don't interest us while watching our own beloved game become a cash cow/money drain is quite depressing.

Rather than getting defensive and feeling attacked I wish the devs could feel the amount of emotion people feel for this game. Honestly, how many games have players who would plead with the developers to listen to their complaints to help bring the game back to what it was rather than just bail? I know a lot of people have just left with their hands in the air but many of us are sticking it out and asking that you at least stop and hear where this frustration is coming from rather than going to the fall back, "we have to make money!" We get that. We don't refute that. But when making money usurps the quality of the game, the quality of game play and the decisions being made are obviously all based on how much more plat you can get people to spend I think the developers need to take a step back and ask themselves why they developed the game in the first place.

I worry that STS will either lose a ton of players and flounder. Or that they'll continue on the plat chase and not listen to the players and be happy being a game that consists of a revolving door of players who spend plat on ridiculousness and then leave. Great. You'll be making money. But you'll have lost the heart that so many of us felt when we first started playing. I can't believe you began PL with the sole intent of making dough or you wouldn't have been so involved initially. I'm still trying to figure out what happened--did you sell part of the company to a new firm who is demanding that these new changes take place or was I just imagining what I felt when I first started playing?

I won't be playing the WF this year, which is depressing because I really enjoyed last year's event. It was awesome and I met Drewcapu, a great buddy, playing those dungeons. I've chosen to not play the campaign because I feel that supporting your decision to charge 2 plat per run is just supporting the decline down a slippery slope of disaster. I'm starting to get less positive so I'll just leave you with one last point.

When you have a sea of old players who have consistently supported STS leaving I think that STS needs to stop for a moment and reflect on what that means.

[Slush]

First, I'd like to preface my post by saying I've typed two responses and deleted them both after sitting on them for hours. I found myself rambling and couldn't understand why and then I realized it's because I'm all over the place with how I feel about the direction of the game. I can't really address how I feel about the WF this year without touching on how I feel about the game.

When I first started playing PL I was impressed by the diversity between levels. I loved the creativity I saw and I had no idea what I'd see next. It was exciting and new and fun. It was enough to pull me in and hook me.

I have not spent money on video games, aside from exercise games for my Wii, in my adult life but when I hit level 13 I bought the main spine without hesitation. I was glad I bought it and I continued to buy the other maps in order to access the really cool content. I felt that my money was well spent and I couldn't believe that this great little game was so much fun.

I started perusing the forums in order to learn my skills. Because I'd never played a video game like this I had no idea what I was doing and wanted to learn how to allocate skill points, etc. I would browse the forums for hours reading guides, learning more about my character and learning how to be a better player. In the process I found a community that was thriving with active players who were full of advice and knowledge and a palpable love of the game.

I was also shocked to see the game developers actively participating in threads. What I felt was almost like a big family. I come from a very close family so seeing this mutual respect between the developers and players (and the players seemed like more than players--they were contributors to the game whose ideas were respected by the devs) made me feel all warm and fuzzy. I'd see Asommers in town talking to people, having fun, showing off his yeti costume or alien costume and it was just really cool.

Eventually, though, the devs became more distant and much less visible. Rather than seeing the team on the boards the collective voice of the devs was spoken through Samhayne. Concerns were quickly shut down with, "please leave feedback here_____ and we will look at all concerns", with very little follow up. I can't speak for everyone but it began to feel that we were being dismissed.

I can understand some of the business decisions because, obviously, you do have a business you are growing. I get that. What I don't understand is where the creative content went. In the past you may have been charging too little for what you gave us (the creative content all the way up to AO3) but you did a complete 180 and started charging WAY too much for content that was inferior. I've seen people argue on the boards that creating more diverse dungeons would be cost prohibitive but I know beyond a doubt STS is making much more money than in the past, when the content was amazingly creative.

I think what you are seeing recently is negativity due to the feeling that we are being expected to pay money for what many feel is not great content. To take it a step further, many of us feel you are charging PL players obscene amounts of platinum in order to fund your other projects. This wouldn't be horrible if you were actually providing new content that was mind boggling but that hasn't been the case. Many of us who play PL are not interested in playing SL or DL so having to pay to fund the creation of games that don't interest us while watching our own beloved game become a cash cow/money drain is quite depressing.

Rather than getting defensive and feeling attacked I wish the devs could feel the amount of emotion people feel for this game. Honestly, how many games have players who would plead with the developers to listen to their complaints to help bring the game back to what it was rather than just bail? I know a lot of people have just left with their hands in the air but many of us are sticking it out and asking that you at least stop and hear where this frustration is coming from rather than going to the fall back, "we have to make money!" We get that. We don't refute that. But when making money usurps the quality of the game, the quality of game play and the decisions being made are obviously all based on how much more plat you can get people to spend I think the developers need to take a step back and ask themselves why they developed the game in the first place.

I worry that STS will either lose a ton of players and flounder. Or that they'll continue on the plat chase and not listen to the players and be happy being a game that consists of a revolving door of players who spend plat on ridiculousness and then leave. Great. You'll be making money. But you'll have lost the heart that so many of us felt when we first started playing. I can't believe you began PL with the sole intent of making dough or you wouldn't have been so involved initially. I'm still trying to figure out what happened--did you sell part of the company to a new firm who is demanding that these new changes take place or was I just imagining what I felt when I first started playing?

I won't be playing the WF this year, which is depressing because I really enjoyed last year's event. It was awesome and I met Drewcapu, a great buddy, playing those dungeons. I've chosen to not play the campaign because I feel that supporting your decision to charge 2 plat per run is just supporting the decline down a slippery slope of disaster. I'm starting to get less positive so I'll just leave you with one last point.

When you have a sea of old players who have consistently supported STS leaving I think that STS needs to stop for a moment and reflect on what that means.

Very well said, loved the last point especially. Great post Pandamoni.

[Decur]

It was a calculated risk. They knew there would be many people unhappy about this situation. You'd have to be naive to think otherwise. However, people continue to pay and eat it up. That's why there is no change and they continue to push the envelope.

[Elyseon]

It was a calculated risk. They knew there would be many people unhappy about this situation. You'd have to be naive to think otherwise. However, people continue to pay and eat it up. That's why there is no change and they continue to push the envelope.

Exactly, I guess they wanna kill the game and the community. And just be powered by mindless mass plat spenders

[Decur]

Exactly, I guess they wanna kill the game and the community. And just be powered by mindless mass plat spenders

As we have been remiminded so many times, it is a business and their primary objective is to earn money. Unfortunately, it's a double edged sword. By alienating the community, they run the risk of losing the very thing that made PL great. Of course, this is just my opinion...

[noobmigo]

First, I'd like to preface my post by saying I've typed two responses and deleted them both after sitting on them for hours. I found myself rambling and couldn't understand why and then I realized it's because I'm all over the place with how I feel about the direction of the game. I can't really address how I feel about the WF this year without touching on how I feel about the game.

When I first started playing PL I was impressed by the diversity between levels. I loved the creativity I saw and I had no idea what I'd see next. It was exciting and new and fun. It was enough to pull me in and hook me.

I have not spent money on video games, aside from exercise games for my Wii, in my adult life but when I hit level 13 I bought the main spine without hesitation. I was glad I bought it and I continued to buy the other maps in order to access the really cool content. I felt that my money was well spent and I couldn't believe that this great little game was so much fun.

I started perusing the forums in order to learn my skills. Because I'd never played a video game like this I had no idea what I was doing and wanted to learn how to allocate skill points, etc. I would browse the forums for hours reading guides, learning more about my character and learning how to be a better player. In the process I found a community that was thriving with active players who were full of advice and knowledge and a palpable love of the game.

I was also shocked to see the game developers actively participating in threads. What I felt was almost like a big family. I come from a very close family so seeing this mutual respect between the developers and players (and the players seemed like more than players--they were contributors to the game whose ideas were respected by the devs) made me feel all warm and fuzzy. I'd see Asommers in town talking to people, having fun, showing off his yeti costume or alien costume and it was just really cool.

Eventually, though, the devs became more distant and much less visible. Rather than seeing the team on the boards the collective voice of the devs was spoken through Samhayne. Concerns were quickly shut down with, "please leave feedback here_____ and we will look at all concerns", with very little follow up. I can't speak for everyone but it began to feel that we were being dismissed.

I can understand some of the business decisions because, obviously, you do have a business you are growing. I get that. What I don't understand is where the creative content went. In the past you may have been charging too little for what you gave us (the creative content all the way up to AO3) but you did a complete 180 and started charging WAY too much for content that was inferior. I've seen people argue on the boards that creating more diverse dungeons would be cost prohibitive but I know beyond a doubt STS is making much more money than in the past, when the content was amazingly creative.

I think what you are seeing recently is negativity due to the feeling that we are being expected to pay money for what many feel is not great content. To take it a step further, many of us feel you are charging PL players obscene amounts of platinum in order to fund your other projects. This wouldn't be horrible if you were actually providing new content that was mind boggling but that hasn't been the case. Many of us who play PL are not interested in playing SL or DL so having to pay to fund the creation of games that don't interest us while watching our own beloved game become a cash cow/money drain is quite depressing.

Rather than getting defensive and feeling attacked I wish the devs could feel the amount of emotion people feel for this game. Honestly, how many games have players who would plead with the developers to listen to their complaints to help bring the game back to what it was rather than just bail? I know a lot of people have just left with their hands in the air but many of us are sticking it out and asking that you at least stop and hear where this frustration is coming from rather than going to the fall back, "we have to make money!" We get that. We don't refute that. But when making money usurps the quality of the game, the quality of game play and the decisions being made are obviously all based on how much more plat you can get people to spend I think the developers need to take a step back and ask themselves why they developed the game in the first place.

I worry that STS will either lose a ton of players and flounder. Or that they'll continue on the plat chase and not listen to the players and be happy being a game that consists of a revolving door of players who spend plat on ridiculousness and then leave. Great. You'll be making money. But you'll have lost the heart that so many of us felt when we first started playing. I can't believe you began PL with the sole intent of making dough or you wouldn't have been so involved initially. I'm still trying to figure out what happened--did you sell part of the company to a new firm who is demanding that these new changes take place or was I just imagining what I felt when I first started playing?

I won't be playing the WF this year, which is depressing because I really enjoyed last year's event. It was awesome and I met Drewcapu, a great buddy, playing those dungeons. I've chosen to not play the campaign because I feel that supporting your decision to charge 2 plat per run is just supporting the decline down a slippery slope of disaster. I'm starting to get less positive so I'll just leave you with one last point.

When you have a sea of old players who have consistently supported STS leaving I think that STS needs to stop for a moment and reflect on what that means.

Panda, I'd like to say,
If you ever leave.
I'll miss ya.

Thanks for the great times, especially last summer.

[Moogerfooger]

Pandamoni, I won't pull a noobiemigo and quote your whole post :D but this is one of the best posts on the subject, and in general, I have seen in a long time.

[noobmigo]

Pandamoni, I won't pull a noobiemigo and quote your whole post :D but this is one of the best posts on the subject, and in general, I have seen in a long time.

Oopsies, habit. :o

[Moogerfooger]

Moogerfooger, notice I said "cost" implying there is a cost. I agree 100% with what you said. I'm only stating that when you are spending it won't cost too much. The main thing I hate is the concept itself. If it ever progreses further than this one instance, you can count me out.



Gotcha, thanks for clarifying. Looks like we have a general viewpoint in common, as well as being at Osan (I was there several years ago) in common.

[MightyMicah]

No problem, and you were at Osan? Awesome!

[Reaganite]

I understand that this is first and foremost a business, but two plat per run is excessive. One plat maybe, but not two. Keep it reasonable.

[Duped]

.......In the past you may have been charging too little for what you gave us (the creative content all the way up to AO3) but you did a complete 180 and started charging WAY too much for content that was inferior.

Are you sure it wasn't a 360 they did :P

Wonderfully worded, 100% agree, even if you are Debbie Downer.

[PatsoeGamer]

Interesting read, here's my top comments for feedback to STS on the latest update:

Pro's
1. new vanities awesome
2. new weapons awesome

Con's
1. Pay per run dislike
2. Same maps as last year
3. Spent too much on xmas pack

To improve on future holiday promotions and leave me and others as more satisfied customers
1. Remove pay per run and make the pink drop difficult
2. Make new maps, with new scenery
3. Make the holiday pack a non lottery item, have the lottery for pink drops & equipment. Make different holiday packs with different items. Or charge plat per item and scale it in price.

[Appleisaac]

No matter how many powerful posts are written here, it won't make a difference... :-( I say that 2 plat per run is a tremendous rip off for farmers, but it lowers the cost of getting the Christmas vanities and just running through the campain once to get the vanities and have fun... I really think this would have been a great idea if they had kept the other option availible to spend about 20-50 plat so people could farm without giving sts every cent they have ever made... :-) I do like the Christmas vanities though :) four plat is a good price for two cool vanities! :-D

[Xenzix]

Honestly... I really can't understand the 2plat per run issue for 2011 x'mas festival... Especially for anyone who paid for x'mas festival last year. Seriously Devs.. This is not the way to earn the loyalty of your players... Purchasing a winter festival should account for purchasing access to winter festival whenever it brought back.. Making your loyal longtime players to pay repeatedly for the same (or very similar content) is really a slap in the face for those who play continually and continue to buy plat for new and original content. I was very disappointed with the request for Plat to use the same winter festival I paid for last year... VERY disappointed!
This is not the way to establish a loyalty base and really should be addressed.

[Justg]

Xenzix, there are all new items in the levels and the drop rates are huge. If you want to jump in and score some cool items, it does not cost very much at all. If you want to repeatedly farm to sell the items to other players, it will cost more to do so. We feel it is a good balance.

[Rare]

Xenzix, there are all new items in the levels and the drop rates are huge. If you want to jump in and score some cool items, it does not cost very much at all. If you want to repeatedly farm to sell the items to other players, it will cost more to do so. We feel it is a good balance.

Not trying to start anything but Netflix thought they were being fair when they split DVD and streaming video. How did that turn out? Of course a company like Netflix has a pretty long leash.

[CrimsonTider]

Xenzix, there are all new items in the levels and the drop rates are huge. If you want to jump in and score some cool items, it does not cost very much at all. If you want to repeatedly farm to sell the items to other players, it will cost more to do so. We feel it is a good balance.

Well, there is our answer: no change or consideration put into our suggestions. Highly disappointed.

[Jaymonee]

Well, there is our answer: no change or consideration put into our suggestions. Highly disappointed.

Only because they are suggestions, I'd say that the suggestion box is overflowing.

[StompArtist]

Xenzix, there are all new items in the levels and the drop rates are huge. If you want to jump in and score some cool items, it does not cost very much at all. If you want to repeatedly farm to sell the items to other players, it will cost more to do so. We feel it is a good balance.

Was checking pms and saw this comment, here is a small reply: some players enjoy running the beautiful dungeons more than farming or being obsessed with pinks. This approach makes it impossible/irrational for these players to truly enjoy the content since it is entirely geared towards plat for items or plat for gold. Some players enjoy playing a bear looking for coal hearts not role playing being the best dressed vain toon or the wealthiest pixel owner... cheers.

PS: JustG do you honestly think that the only reason folks are playing these games is to get pinks? Because that is how you are making it sound...

[Kalielle]

I understand the thinking behind the system now - charge hardcore farmers while allowing everyone to casually enjoy the content. It makes sense in theory, but I think the issue is that it leaves no way for players who are not rich in real life to become rich and powerful in game, which is what many play an MMO for. The assumption is that low-spending players will be happy to just have some fun and get a few neat items for themselves. This leaves out those who can't spend a lot but are hardcore players and want to feel successful in game.

I'm hoping that PL can find another solution to make both classes of players feel satisfied. For example if the inflation in PL was fixed, then maybe the gold-buying options would become more attractive to platinum users. Then the free users could feel good about themselves farming items to sell to plat buyers. The plat buyers would still have an advantage but it wouldn't be as visible, or as exclusive.

Or maybe sellable plat items and elixirs could be introduced. I know the idea was rejected in the past, but I wonder if it would really be such a bad thing. Even WoW now introduced a pet that people can buy for $10 and resell to other players for gold. If players had another way to get items other than plat, then maybe there wouldn't be such a divide in the community based on plat spending.

[Elyseon]

They don't really care what we say, ask, or think because they know some people will throw loads of plat in and make them a lot of money, which is all they care about

[Pharcyde]

I understand the thinking behind the system now - charge hardcore farmers while allowing everyone to casually enjoy the content. It makes sense in theory, but I think the issue is that it leaves no way for players who are not rich in real life to become rich and powerful in game, which is what many play an MMO for. The assumption is that low-spending players will be happy to just have some fun and get a few neat items for themselves. This leaves out those who can't spend a lot but are hardcore players and want to feel successful in game.

I'm hoping that PL can find another solution to make both classes of players feel satisfied. For example if the inflation in PL was fixed, then maybe the gold-buying options would become more attractive to platinum users. Then the free users could feel good about themselves farming items to sell to plat buyers. The plat buyers would still have an advantage but it wouldn't be as visible, or as exclusive.

Or maybe sellable plat items and elixirs could be introduced. I know the idea was rejected in the past, but I wonder if it would really be such a bad thing. Even WoW now introduced a pet that people can buy for $10 and resell to other players for gold. If players had another way to get items other than plat, then maybe there wouldn't be such a divide in the community based on plat spending.

Well said -

The old PL, or as many oldies call fun PL had its fair share of issues. A lot of the issues had been resolved, but the new biggest issue is the increasingly big gap between rich and poor.

I liked the old system were you could buy decent elixirs for gold, then the power elixirs for platinum.

[Appleisaac]

They don't really care what we say, ask, or think because they know some people will throw loads of plat in and make them a lot of money, which is all they care about

As long as there are rich obsessed people sts won't give us new original stuff/or lower the need for plat...

Sts please prove me wrong! :)

[Appleisaac]

Well said -

but the new biggest issue is the increasingly big gap between rich and poor.

I liked the old system were you could buy decent elixirs for gold, then the power elixirs for platinum.

Sounds like london in the days when charles dickens wrote the book A Christmas Carol to try to get the rich to be more charitable towards the poor... Lol I know this isn't related to the post at all, but I just thought it was cool!

[pastrychef]

To all those who defended the plat elixirs, 500 plat vanity helm, etc with "it's optional", "it's not needed to enjoy the game", "don't buy it if you don't want to". Right back at ya.

[kallima]

I have not been able to post my feedback as I was limited to only mobile devices and knew my feedback would be rather long-winded. So forgive the delay as the point seems pretty moot now.

I do think STS has become more plat driven and WF just confirms this for me. I took a hiatus and was a bit shocked at how contradictory the latest decisions have been. The thrasher elixirs are not an issue for me. I didn't rage quit when they retired my twinks from scale farming because I discovered that I can still scale farm - just the drops will be worth less due to an increase in scaled drops. I understood STS is a business. They need revenue to sustain their business, pay their employees, advertise their game etc.

However, my issues are with the seemingly hypocritical decisions that negate patches the devs realized were issues. They stated "we want to maintain the integrity of leaderboards" then counteract that by presenting the "enable xp" and thus kills lixir. I haven't seen a reasonable response to why they no longer want to maintain the integrity of the leaderboards, so I can only assume that plat purchases mean more to them than the integrity of the leaderboards.

They've recognized that powerleveling introduces an influx of unskilled players (scatterbears, mages that don't heal, birds that refuse to do damage etc) so place a prevention to this by limiting players to gain xp at a level appropriate dungeon. Once again, this is nullified by the "access any map" elixir. Again, I have not seen a response from the devs stating why they went against their own words and patch, so can only assume that plat purchases are of more value than players that actually want to learn and experiene their game in full.

If I'm incorrect in any of my two previous points, please quote them or direct me to the link where they state WHY they decided to essentially void these patches. I did read they wanted players to have the option to more variety - but frankly they can disable kills from the "enable xp" lixir and disable xp from the "access any map" lixir. That way end game players can still level toons without the monotony of the same campaign, and early toons that just want to explore a map can - but without the benefit of powerleveling or leeching xp while contributing nothing to the team.

Winterfest has confirmed my fear of a plat-driven STS. Let me just state that when I came back I bought two 2K plat packs - not a problem because frankly, I'll spend my disposable income as I see fit (don't ask what I spend on shoes, lol). But the pay to play is rather cumbersome and inconvenient, not to mention, psychologically I begin to feel nickel and dimed. Charge me 1K plat for an all access pass. Charge others without my means, 30-50 plat for 1-4 hours. These are just random numbers but figures I would be willing to pay. I get that the 2plat is a nominal amount to pay but that isn't conducive to the group play you also encourage, or lip-service whatever the case may be. So for the plat conservative, if they have already done their quests to get the Xmas tree hat and Snowflake wings, they have to shell out more plat to help a friend obtain them too? Where is the community interaction in that, because all that inspires is an "I'm in it for me attitude." I foresee people looking for friends to join them in WF questing with a response like "Sorry man, out of plat and out of tap joy offers, good luck finding a group." Which is fine, but it is our nature to WANT to help friends, to share the joy we experience when in a new map and say "Wow, STS did an awesome job," or lament the fact that the environment is the same.

I was prepared to continue purchasing those 2K plat packs but now am hesitant to do so as I do not like to indirectly support decisions with which I disagree. I will state that I have changed my ratings for PL on both the ios and android market, just as I did when GCD was first introduced. I will change it back depending on what, if anything, the devs decide to change. If I remember correctly the GCD meltdown resulted in PL being downgraded to 2 stars in approx a week. I'm not encouraging others to do the same, but we've spoken with our voices on forums, some have voiced it with their pocketbook, this is just another avenue. By all means, for those that applaud this pay to play strategy - show them with your ratings just as I did when I began my first journey into the world of Alterra, but my perception has changed as did my rating.

I'll end on a positive note, because there are positives about this campaign - devs you did a great job with the new weapons. Can i just say that I absolutely love my Cuddle Me Santa bracer! And the update on the launcher is pretty sick - bravo. The stats are the same, but level 10 items having no stat requirements...it will be super interesting to see how level 10 PVP will change, if at all.

My last appeal - please provide us with more than just 2plat per boss kill. 30-50 plat per x hour(s) or an all access plat for 500-1000plat. Crunch the numbers, there has to be a middle ground where you are still making money and everyone feels like they get to experience it for more than 5minutes.

P.S. We are the same forum users that encouraged with a thread for EVERYONE to buy plat on your one year anniversary. I know I did. We WANT STS to thrive, we show you with our plat purchases (whether necesary or celebratory) - that in itself should tell you that we don't feel entitled to "free" anything. Thank you and I hope I don't get banned, I kept my post constructive, if there is anything you feel is offensive, plesae PM me and I will remove it ASAP.

[Pakax]

Ill make it shorter: this leaves me being unsatisfied. I have spend plat on this WF and usually, i dont mind spending plat. This time, i do. Something is wrong. I reckon you would have got a lot more money from me on luck elixir for free runs in WF with lower drop rate. And guess what, i would have felt happy.

[CrimsonTider]

Let me put this whole situation in another light:

I average around 30-35 friends at any given moment when I log into PL. Since this update, the MOST friends I have had on is 9 and average, yes AVERAGE, 4. Allow me to add my friends are some of the most hardcore players in the game. Some of who I see around 2-3 hours per night, I have not seen in a few days.

This is not coincedence.

[FluffNStuff]

Xenzix, there are all new items in the levels and the drop rates are huge. If you want to jump in and score some cool items, it does not cost very much at all. If you want to repeatedly farm to sell the items to other players, it will cost more to do so. We feel it is a good balance.

Will you be changing the side levels to this or will you just be doing it with the next side level?

[Bunnyshoota]

STS, lets make this easy.
How about you change the 2 platinum to like 1k gold?
Or take it away completely, but make the maps so that you actually have to kill x amount of regular mobs.
This would make many peoples' xmas.

[Elyseon]

They don't really care what we say, ask, or think because they know some people will throw loads of plat in and make them a lot of money, which is all they care about

As long as there are rich obsessed people sts won't give us new original stuff/or lower the need for plat...

Sts please prove me wrong! :)

Yes Id love to see a change due to the mass input. Plz dont make the suggestion box a trash can

[LADYHADASSA]

Email support (at) spacetimestudios.com

After reading countless thoughts i must say I too had issue in my 66 paid the palt for the vanity item quest.. But the dang elves would not work...

So this comment about dasher was good :) nice to see a spec of humor

[Fyrce]

But the dang elves would not work...


Dont' forget to reset the elves, by talking to Prancy again. I do this right after I take the quest, because the elves never worked for me unless I did that. Just do this and you can get the elves to count.

[ladyjanegrey217]

I would probably be ok(kinda). Except every time I go into the winter village there's five other players who have either beaten the quest or killed all of the enemies. That's the whole point of paying to go into the level! If you can't fight anyone, you can't pick up any drops. And if the party ahead of you finished the quest, you have the annoying quest completed sign (which will appear even if there are more enemies roaming around). So basically you have to be a psychic. You need to know the.exact second that everyone is at the beginning! I don't know if its easier when your a higher level, but if your on the lower level there's only a slim chance at getting items, and to me that's sending a "we don't care if you get item's" message.

[derricks2]

Xenzix, there are all new items in the levels and the drop rates are huge. If you want to jump in and score some cool items, it does not cost very much at all. If you want to repeatedly farm to sell the items to other players, it will cost more to do so. We feel it is a good balance.

Enjoying the content doesnt have everything to do with getting pinks.

Also...

Please dont say its new items.. they are the exact same items with a slightly different name and a new image.

It took 1/100th of the time this year to program the winter event. Same lands, same quests, same loot with different names, same monsters.. the most new thing about this holiday event STS seems to be more in the spirit of taking than the spirit of giving.

[Swords]

Every holiday event the devs announce it but they always leave out 1 detail, the cost! They don't want to tell us because then we will complain !

[Bebsi]

Idk how long I've been playing this game so far, guess 9-12months?
I remember at the beginning I didn't buy plats...

Well, I have been trying to close my eyes to many things STS, but I have to admit that the game is not so fun as it used to be.
I looked up the plat stats from my account and woah..., for my first lvl cap I just used up a few hundred plats, but now...
thousands of plats in a few weeks or months ;((

MF campaign for free?
Not really.
Ever tried to make runs on your own without elixiers? --> you hardly survive
Play with a team? --> getting kicked out all the time if your not on thrasher

What's different?
I tell you what's different. New players don't know.
When we leveled for the first cap (COP), an experienced user could do a Sewer run alone, not easy but it could be done.
Two experienced user would be capable of killing Gold without elixiers (I did with Haowesie), so we could farm without spending plats.
For me all the new campaigns are a f***ing joke (sry). Even as an experienced user I hardly get to the boss without elixiers.
Now try doin' the bosses without elixiers... well, there are groups that can do it without elixiers but why do I never get to join one of these?

I paused 2-3 months after I reached lvl 56.
When I came back, Nuri was out and just a few weeks to MF.
That's when all the crazy plat spending started...

I'd love to post my plat spendings (but I'm not sure if it goes with the TOS), so you would see my plat stats reflect exactly what everybody is saying...
The game turned into a cash sink game.
Idk where my limit is devs, but the game is not that fun if you have to contantly pay (more!!!) real cash.
Instead of giving just a veteran vanity (in near future), you should build an NPC that turns ingame gold to plats for the hardworking gamers or people that can't afford to buy plats.
I love PL and I even started to support SL, so please listen to the old players, too.

P.S.: I got my WF hat in SL and I bought the WF pack in PL, but I don't feel like spending constantly :(

Sry for the ranting, but I'm just sad like many others.

[Elyseon]

Fang isnt too bad unelixd

[Rare]

Fang isnt too bad unelixd

Solo?

[Elyseon]

The point of a co op mmo isn't to solo, the maps aren't made for solo but teamwork. They not only scale in stats but in difficulty, by lvl 60 ur expected to be better than lvl35

[Decur]

I don't know about others, so I am just speaking from personal experience. Keep in mind, I don't use elixirs. But I'm quite certain that anyone on plat elixirs can solo anything.

In My Fang, soloing the maps are not very difficult. The only hard part are the boss. Two of them I've solo'ed. The other three boss would probably require at least a gold melee elixir. All maps can be completely cleared with two players, no elixirs needed.

In my opiniion, Nuri's was more difficult to solo due to the special attacks of the mobs, but it was still possible. You just need to take more care when doing it. The only place I was unable to clear alone was the section with two mini bosses in House of Pain (bosses not included). As for the boss, I solo'ed three of the five. The other two needs two people. I don't know if gold elixirs will help.

In the Sewers, again, all maps can be cleared without much difficulty (not including bosses). Notable tough spots include the section that leads to daily quest in Hideout and the grate grid section of Stronghold. When it comes to bosses, three of the five can be solo'ed. For the bosses, as a bear, I did not have enough damage to take down Bandit Queen before she healed herself and was unable to destroy the totem before Goblin King healed. I don't think gold elixirs would have helped. All are possible with two players, no elixirs needed. When trying to defeat Goblin King with two bears, it is important to save your buffs for the totem, otherwise, you will not be able to destroy it in time. Of course, that was when I was level 56, things might be very different now that I'm level 66.

[Pharcyde]

The point of a co op mmo isn't to solo, the maps aren't made for solo but teamwork. They not only scale in stats but in difficulty, by lvl 60 ur expected to be better than lvl35

I soloed the oldschool AO3 pre-nerf with the oldschool pre-combat rebalance squishy mage.


AO3 wasn't meant to be soloed, it was still done.

What he is saying is Mt. Fang should be soloable, but yet it isn't. But you can solo if you drop a elixir, which isn't cool with the oldies who know all about the oldschool solo days.

[Marcoolio]

Let me put this whole situation in another light:

I average around 30-35 friends at any given moment when I log into PL. Since this update, the MOST friends I have had on is 9 and average, yes AVERAGE, 4. Allow me to add my friends are some of the most hardcore players in the game. Some of who I see around 2-3 hours per night, I have not seen in a few days.

This is not coincedence.

Thats so true mr. crim, like i told my earlier post i have normaly lots of friends online and last few days there is 0-5 online same time. Maybe ppl prepare xmas in reallife or just too lazy to play?!?! :P

Its funny where this all goes. I just make my move and NOT buy next pack of plats and if i do it i do that next year when this "happy xmas" is over. I just lost that meaning to get "elite lvl" what dosent means nowdays nothing, so if i miss 66lvl i really dont care anymore. I have 2 "elite lvl" and that cost a lot. I think ppl shud say last lvl "harcore spender" or something :) now someone post here "you can get it without plat", sure you can if you dont have nothing to do in real life ;) I understand that everyone cant buy plat like i can if i want but biggest guestion is why shud i spend more cash in this?! Im sure sts gets new way to rip off us plats (no hard feelings)

Like i say before i dont say only WF ruins this all.. after sewers things going this way imo and lets see how deep this boat can go before sinking :)

[Slush]

As time goes by, the community gets quieter and quieter, all according to plan...
/evil laugh

[pastrychef]

As time goes by, the community gets quieter and quieter, all according to plan...
/evil laugh

There's nothing left that hasn't been said. Since we already know nothing is changing, no one is bothering anymore.

[Marcoolio]

There's nothing left that hasn't been said. Since we already know nothing is changing, no one is bothering anymore.

Sad but so true.. i leave this too and go enjoy xmas with my kids.. cya next year..maybe :)

[WhoIsThis]

Well, it's the weekday. Lets see if there are any changes. If there aren't any be the end of the week - I think we will know.

[Justg]

Snikkel, we're just deleting threads that are non-constructive or full of rage. Someone demanding answers this morning is just more rabble-rousing.

[Dark Avenger]

...To those of you who don't think it is fair that we are charging access, please understand that we are running a business. We give away almost the entire game for free (including some xmas antlers). You have ways to earn platinum without paying us anything. Salaries and servers don't run on gold... we wish they did!

Well when I first started playing the game used to cost plat to unluck maps after the first world. They came out and told those of us who purchased the maps previously made the game possible for future players to play the game for free, and in turn gave us a vanity sheild that doesn't have any stats or anything, but don't get me started on that sheild thing...why did STS, knowing that they had to pay their employees, make it free for people to play there game? I personally would like to of still purchashed maps inorder to access these kind of events for free. I'm sure others are like this or maybe I just liked the older style because it was more elite as far as who played and the quality of the game play was better. All I know is this years winter fest just feels wrong in the way your making us pay each time we run in this map. Even if you had it be a set purchase price for the map for unlimited runs you guys would still be making money and would probably have far less gripes about it. and for the free 800 plat packs and chromebooks...they were nice to give out to promote your game but I would rather not be penalized for your advertising.

This is not a rage post or me "dissing sts" they posted a feed back thread and I'm giving my honest feedback so please donoot delete my post again :)

[elrond]

I still think they could of made more money by offering a choice. Unlimited access to WF for X to 1.5X(X = whatever they charged last year) Platinum, 2 hours access for 10 Platinum, 1 run through each map for 2 platinum. I started playing around the time of the winter festival last year, but never payed the entrance fee, so I do not know what it cost. This way the farmers, and those who just want to play the festival can buy unlimited access and play to there hearts content. Those who have some platinum and want to get a good taste of it and get a few winter items can buy a couple hours access and run as much as they can in that time. Those who just want a taste can get a couple free platinum and run the two maps and quests and see what it is and get the vanities and see what all the fuss is about. I bet they get more money this way than how they set it up and everyone gets to play the WF the way they want to.

[Rare]

why did STS, knowing that they had to pay their employees, make it free for people to play there game?

From a business perspective, it was a great move.

1. While some were alienated, the vast majority saw this is STS "giving back".
2. You open all the main content to new comers. Think about it this way... You log on and play in forest have to get a taste. Sure, game is cool, but you probably won't invest your money or time into it (I almost didn't). Now, open ALL the maps and allow these same people to get deep into the game, get an attachment to their characters, and make friends, and they WILL invest their money and time. I for one paid plat for all of my maps through AO3 and got the shield (which I still wear on my mage).

Don't fault them for opening the main spine. It was a prudent business decision.


and for the free 800 plat packs and chromebooks...they were nice to give out to promote your game but I would rather not be penalized for your advertising.

Then you my friend might not want to ever buy anything that has any advertising.

[adidaman]

I just wish justg would stop pretending that STS is justified. I've been playing this game since April 9th, 2010, and have loved it ever since. Back then, I gladly shelled out the 1.99$ per campaign (no plat back then), but I feel as if you guys have taken it too far. Sure, you made the main spine free; I give you that one, however you make it almost necessary to purchase an elixir to get the full game experience. I'm not one to skirt around the truth, and the truth is fairly obvious here. You guys need to step up your game, or you will lose many veteran players and prominent forum members. Also, stop deleting peoples critical posts. STS could use all the criticism they need right there.


Edit- On a side not, I do not believe the game should be completely free; you need to make money like any other business. I feel like we should go back to the 10plat per campaign days, and leave the extra stuff free. (just an opinion)

[Zenidal]

I've just started playing a few months ago, and after reading all the previous posts, I wonder if it's worth staying in PL. I mean, 2 plat per run in the Winter Festifal seems a little expensive. :(

[Pharcyde]

Don't fault them for opening the main spine. It was a prudent business decision.

It was a very good business move I agree. What I really dislike is they use that as a reason to justify high prices and a excuse to produce poor content.


None of us asked for free content
Even though they say it is 100% free (Which is is), there are still players who spend well over the maps worth to get a upper hand.
If you don't spend money, you will always be a casual gamer with a major disadvantage.
Other prices are so high because content is free, but lets be honest.. 95% of the content will be passed very rapidly, since everyone aims for end game. Dropping 15 platinum for a map that will last you a week is a pretty good deal on STS's end.
A lot of purchases are considered "unnecessary extras", when really, if you don't purchase them. You will literally be playing for just fun and sightseeing. Not skill




Edit- On a side not, I do not believe the game should be completely free; you need to make money like any other business. I feel like we should go back to the 10plat per campaign days, and leave the extra stuff free. (just an opinion)

All I ask for is that they make content worth the price.. Like you said, it's almost a necessity to purchase elixirs to enjoy the game. 5 bucks for a 30 min elixir is a bit crazy.

[Rare]

I've just started playing a few months ago, and after reading all the previous posts, I wonder if it's worth staying in PL. I mean, 2 plat per run in the Winter Festifal seems a little expensive. :(

Well... Winter Fest is just an event. Future campaigns won't (I HOPE) charge per run.

All in all, PL is a great game. Some bumps in the road, but nothing that can't be fixed.

[Rare]

It was a very good business move I agree. What I really dislike is they use that as a reason to justify high prices and a excuse to produce poor content.


None of us asked for free content
Even though they say it is 100% free (Which is is), there are still players who spend well over the maps worth to get a upper hand.
If you don't spend money, you will always be a casual gamer with a major disadvantage.
Other prices are so high because content is free, but lets be honest.. 95% of the content will be passed very rapidly, since everyone aims for end game. Dropping 15 platinum for a map that will last you a week is a pretty good deal on STS's end.
A lot of purchases are considered "unnecessary extras", when really, if you don't purchase them. You will literally be playing for just fun and sightseeing. Not skill




All I ask for is that they make content worth the price.. Like you said, it's almost a necessity to purchase elixirs to enjoy the game. 5 bucks for a 30 min elixir is a bit crazy.

I pretty much agree with all your points. Especially regarding elixirs.

[Snakespeare]

It was a very good business move I agree. What I really dislike is they use that as a reason to justify high prices and a excuse to produce poor content.


None of us asked for free content
Even though they say it is 100% free (Which is is), there are still players who spend well over the maps worth to get a upper hand.
If you don't spend money, you will always be a casual gamer with a major disadvantage.
Other prices are so high because content is free, but lets be honest.. 95% of the content will be passed very rapidly, since everyone aims for end game. Dropping 15 platinum for a map that will last you a week is a pretty good deal on STS's end.
A lot of purchases are considered "unnecessary extras", when really, if you don't purchase them. You will literally be playing for just fun and sightseeing. Not skill




All I ask for is that they make content worth the price.. Like you said, it's almost a necessity to purchase elixirs to enjoy the game. 5 bucks for a 30 min elixir is a bit crazy.

So, I pretty much disagree, unlike the person above me.

Yes, they ARE asking for MORE free stuff. For instance, asking that the free antlers be diffferent from last year. And they want to buy an unlimited pass to WF for several weeks, then loot the daylights out of it, and sell at absurdly high prices. And that is because greed is actually quite normal. People want to be greedy themselves, but don't want to pay more then a dollar at most. A dollar? If that's what constitutes "not free", then I say it's a very thin line.

People who spend money are paying for the game. People who do not spend money are reaping the benefits of those who do. The game would not exist if nobody spent money on it. So when you say the people who do not spend money are at a major disadvantage, I respond, "you say that like it's a bad thing." It's not that they are at a DIS advantage, it's that the ones who pay for the game GET an advantage. I think that's a big difference. The 95%, as you say, content that will be passed over quickly... is free. One may choose to play more slowly and enjoy it a bit more.

And the part about skill is confusing to me. Skill means choosing your targets, not over-pulling, not setting off traps. To play without elixirs takes MORE skill, so how do the unnecessary extras help that? This idea evades me.

Finally, you mention 15 platinum, last year's price, but in PL I only paid for it once. I got the free antlers, paid and entered, did the quest and got my wings. 4 plat. Then I went to CS and spent 100K on other people's drops. I got exactly what I wanted and spent less. While in SL I ran the map 20 times, spending 40 plat. I got two pinks and a smooch-me vanity. I ran it that many times because I took characters of various levels to get some nice xmas bling for them all.

You ask that they make it worth the price. To me, it has been worth the price. After seven or eight runs, it's the same price as last year. I bet most people are happy to make a half dozen runs, which is cheaper than last year.

While those who are greedy and want to hoard treasures to sell at outlandish prices during the summer are now expected to pay their own way.

I don't know why I am the only one pointing it out, but STS is writing two new games as we speak. They have tripled their staff since last WF. They have to pay the people TODAY who are writing the new games that are coming out. Unlike the core four, those people can't work without pay to get something launched. When we are playing Dark Legends and Western Legends, just remember that all the plat buyers paid for it, and not one non-plat buyer did. So if we get advantages, it's only right! They should be thanking us plat buyers, not howling about how they can't get 5 dollars to spend on something they like! I don't believe them anyways.

[mafiainc42]

@snake well written agree 100%..

[Aikiebo]

I don't know why I am the only one pointing it out, but STS is writing two new games as we speak. They have tripled their staff since last WF. They have to pay the people TODAY who are writing the new games that are coming out. Unlike the core four, those people can't work without pay to get something launched. When we are playing Dark Legends and Western Legends, just remember that all the plat buyers paid for it, and not one non-plat buyer did. So if we get advantages, it's only right! They should be thanking us plat buyers, not howling about how they can't get 5 dollars to spend on something they like! I don't believe them anyways.

Wow!! A very excellent post, the entire post, thank you.

[Rare]

I don't know why I am the only one pointing it out, but STS is writing two new games as we speak. They have tripled their staff since last WF. They have to pay the people TODAY who are writing the new games that are coming out. Unlike the core four, those people can't work without pay to get something launched. When we are playing Dark Legends and Western Legends, just remember that all the plat buyers paid for it, and not one non-plat buyer did. So if we get advantages, it's only right! They should be thanking us plat buyers, not howling about how they can't get 5 dollars to spend on something they like! I don't believe them anyways.

I missunderstood Pharcyde's last point. I do not agree with that. I agree, without the "extra purchases" (e.g. elixirs), MUCH more skill is required.

However, I do agree with the final point. I have no problem paying for content. I would like to see STS take more time to create better content as opposed to rushing things out to appease the minority that are elixir fiends and get to end game in two days.

I personally maintain three characters and try to level them all to the cap. Unfortunately with the pace it is increasingly difficult (and expensive) to do. Better content that is more sustainable will allow the game to grow larger and have more positive results. I keep saying it... releasing new campaigns and maps is not the only way to keep people interested. I hope in the future STS takes advantage of a lot of the suggestions that have been made available from various people.

[Snakespeare]

Well, that's another thing I see people repeating, that there is some sort of better content or superior creativity or something. This particular trope is grounded in the concept of cynicism. It is easy to be cynical and find things to not like, because there's no risk. There's no risk to finding fault. But there is a risk to stating that you like something. When you like something, you are put upon to defend your taste. I find this in the arts all the time. There are people who pay scads of money to go to concerts just so they can say what they didn't like. And this seems to give them an air of knowledge. But it's a sham. They can't say what they do like. They can't create it better themselves. In the grand scheme, they contribute nothing, only take a lot of personal ego boost from thinking that others think them smart for poo-poo-ing everything.

So, when someone says this vague term about "lacking creativity" or "inferior content" they are saying nothing to me. They have made no mental effort to say what they do like in comparison... except maybe to throw the past in someone's face. Like George Harrison's second album had inferior content to his first, they say, to throw the past in George's face. But they themselves couldn't do a bit of it, and they don't even know what they would have done differently.

So I basically see these "inferior content" posts as mere cynicism by people who find it easy and safe to shoot others down, when they themselves never dare to poke their own heads up.

[Snakespeare]

Bull, if you pay for a product and get less the next time
Like what happens in pl people get unhappy. Got nothing to do with sticking your head out.

Case in point. There is no actual material here, just a person being cynical. It's easy to write these words. There's no risk. There's nothing to defend. It sounds true and therefore the person seems smart, but only on the surface. Other than repeating an unsubstantiated gripe, there is no content in the post.

[Weak_Sauce]

I have basically quit. I can tell you one thing, sts isn't getting another dime out of me.

[FluffNStuff]

Well, that's another thing I see people repeating, that there is some sort of better content or superior creativity or something. This particular trope is grounded in the concept of cynicism. It is easy to be cynical and find things to not like, because there's no risk. There's no risk to finding fault. But there is a risk to stating that you like something. When you like something, you are put upon to defend your taste. I find this in the arts all the time. There are people who pay scads of money to go to concerts just so they can say what they didn't like. And this seems to give them an air of knowledge. But it's a sham. They can't say what they do like. They can't create it better themselves. In the grand scheme, they contribute nothing, only take a lot of personal ego boost from thinking that others think them smart for poo-poo-ing everything.

So, when someone says this vague term about "lacking creativity" or "inferior content" they are saying nothing to me. They have made no mental effort to say what they do like in comparison... except maybe to throw the past in someone's face. Like George Harrison's second album had inferior content to his first, they say, to throw the past in George's face. But they themselves couldn't do a bit of it, and they don't even know what they would have done differently.

So I basically see these "inferior content" posts as mere cynicism by people who find it easy and safe to shoot others down, when they themselves never dare to poke their own heads up.
Case in point. There is no actual material here, just a person being cynical. It's easy to write these words. There's no risk. There's nothing to defend. It sounds true and therefore the person seems smart, but only on the surface. Other than repeating an unsubstantiated gripe, there is no content in the post.

[mackjack]

@FluffNStuff

Lol. Love it.

[Rare]

Well, that's another thing I see people repeating, that there is some sort of better content or superior creativity or something. This particular trope is grounded in the concept of cynicism. It is easy to be cynical and find things to not like, because there's no risk. There's no risk to finding fault. But there is a risk to stating that you like something. When you like something, you are put upon to defend your taste. I find this in the arts all the time. There are people who pay scads of money to go to concerts just so they can say what they didn't like. And this seems to give them an air of knowledge. But it's a sham. They can't say what they do like. They can't create it better themselves. In the grand scheme, they contribute nothing, only take a lot of personal ego boost from thinking that others think them smart for poo-poo-ing everything.

So, when someone says this vague term about "lacking creativity" or "inferior content" they are saying nothing to me. They have made no mental effort to say what they do like in comparison... except maybe to throw the past in someone's face. Like George Harrison's second album had inferior content to his first, they say, to throw the past in George's face. But they themselves couldn't do a bit of it, and they don't even know what they would have done differently.

So I basically see these "inferior content" posts as mere cynicism by people who find it easy and safe to shoot others down, when they themselves never dare to poke their own heads up.

As I mentioned, I've posted on numerous occasions ideas that I think will make for better content. Creativity is in the eye of the beholder.

The concept of critiquing requires that you identify the underlying problem as well as provide a possible solution. MANY people on these forums have done this on a number of occasions.

To make a generalization like you have done isn't any different than people making generic statements like it "lacks creativity".

[Snakespeare]

In that case u must be the only one that may write something here and solo the forum with or without pots.
Since there is. 1 thruth yours.
U did a managers workshop?

I am not saying that I own the truth, I am saying that people who do nothing but crap on other people's work only SOUND like they are smart. When you look inside and try to find any real content, it's not there. And I am certain that these people who just put down others are incapable of creating anything themselves.

And as for quitting... suit yourself. It's just a game.

[Rare]

I am not saying that I own the truth, I am saying that people who do nothing but crap on other people's work only SOUND like they are smart. When you look inside and try to find any real content, it's not there. And I am certain that these people who just put down others are incapable of creating anything themselves.

And as for quitting... suit yourself. It's just a game.

I'm curious as to your use of "these people." I'm not sure if you are referring to me or if you are generalizing.

[Snakespeare]

Oh Atlannie, I think you are right! How dumb of me.

Yeah, I am talking about the general wave of cynicism that has hit the boards. I am definitely not saying you do this. I'm saying that human beings find it easy to trash things, but it takes a lot more effort to suggest improvements.

And you are right, there are many good suggestions for improvement. And that IS the purpose of feedback.

I hope I haven't stepped on anyone's toes accidentally.

Generally, the "nattering naysayers of negativity" aren't helping, and I was just saying that, just because there are a lot of them right now and it's cool to be down on others, that doesn't mean that they are contributing anything worthwhile.

[Weak_Sauce]

Edited, topic all ready covered.

[kallima]

@Snake - you did come off a bit harsh as there have been plenty of good ideas in suggestions/feedback thread for new content etc. Some of these naysayers like Whoisthis, Pharcyde, and many others have made separate threads in the correct section. Basically the devs have said that the reason why they reuse many backgrounds/themes is due to the limitations of mobile apps, I have no clue about the technical aspect so will take their word for it.

My negativity concerns issues that have yet to be answered. The ever increasing direction of a plat driven PL. Most recently their "solution" to the level anywhere and access all maps lixir. Instead of fixing a problem they themselves recognized "maintaining LB integrity" and "unskilled players a a result of power leveling," they just decided to make it more expensive. As a community, several solutions were offerred and none were applied.

Until they justify those aforementioned issues or implement a true fix, I will continue to voice my "negative" opinions various ways, by repeating it ad nauseum (until I get a real answer), refraining from any add'l plat purchases, and keeping my rating for them in both ios and android market.

[Snakespeare]

No way, kall... I'm not talking about the same things as you. You're referring to very specific problems for which we all have given some suggestions. What I am referring to is the "lack of creativity" trope that keeps getting repeated. I assert that these folks wouldn't know creativity if it hit them on the head. The game engine is based on modular construction. It makes about as much sense to complain about the similarity of the modules as it does to complain about the key a song is written in or the alphabet a person uses when they write a poem. All artists have limitations in their medium of some sort. In my opinion, they have done excellent work within their limitations.

But the specific issues you are talking about do need to be addressed. We don't disagree.

I am so glad I don't have 10,000 teens thinking it's cool to insult MY work.

[kallima]

And yes, it would be difficult to receive 10,000 criticisms from teens of varying age but that is the business in which they work - they market it for a demographic that goes well under and above "teen." Some, not all teens are surprisingly elouent and thoughtful, but those that aren't are also limited by their life experience. I could say the same for adults.

Honestly, I understand what you are saying but there will be contrarians and brown-nosers everywhere and originally I thought you were lumping all the naysayers together - but consider that the lack of backing up that "trope" is a direct result of already exhausting all your attempts at being heard. There have been many in-depth and lengthy threads, to have to repeatedly justify "a lack of creativity" every time its stated gets redundant. All I have to do is check the feedback thread to know that those most VOCAL have also voiced their ideas for improvements to no avail. Hence, the frequency of the one-liners.

[Moogerfooger]

I fail at subsequent-post-reading-comprehension :D

(Soz, snake.)

[Snakespeare]

Gee, moogerfooger, I thought I had made a clear distinction between the "sane/thought-out/grounded feedback" and the people who are just bashing other people's work because they are bored.

[Snakespeare]

After chatting it over in chatbox I came to understand that I wasn't very clear.

I guess I feel the phrase "lacking in creativity" to be a nasty slight on the work of others, and I would think those things (that they wouldn't know creativity if it bit them on the nose) of anyone who said it of me.

We discussed the concept and others felt that the idea was an important one to convey even though nobody could define it beyond repeating what the dictionary said. So while I find it vaguely denigrating to say that about other people, and I would never say it, apparently I am in the minority.

[Aikiebo]

This thread is supposed to be about this patch. The patch that brought us the WF update.

People were upset because they did not have cheap or free acess to farming winter pinks and because they think that STS is not listening to them.

But, the fact is there is no reason why anyone should have free or cheap access to pink farming. In fact, it would hurt the game if they did. Also, just because someone gives an idea and STS doesn't implement it doesn't mean they didn't listen. All it means is that someone else had a better idea.

WF content is optional. It does not impact the core game at all. You can play this entire game free without spending a penny on plat. If someone can't figure out how to play this game plat free and still have huge fun then that person isn't much of a gamer. Everytime I read that someone thinks that STS is forcing them to buy plat, I crack up laughing.

Yes, some people gave constructive criticism without spamming, raging, lobbying, flaming or ranting. But most posts were not constructive. So, I am not refering to anyone who choose to help the game instead of hurt it. I realize that no one was trying to hurt anything, but that is what happened.

But Rage Fest 2011 all boils down to 1. some players wanted free or cheap access to holiday pinks and/or 2. some players feel that buying a lot of plat and/or being a veteran should give them more clout.

The reason why WF costs plat to play is so that STS can raise funds. It is people buying all sorts of optional items that is making this game even possible. Players who love the game should hope that STS makes TONS of money off of WF. We cannot have new content, fresh content, creative content, epic content or any content at all if STS is not hugely profitable.

Just cause someone gives an idea. Even if they give that same ol' idea 200 times. If STS doesn't implement that idea, that doesn't mean that they didn't listen, all it means is that someone else had a better idea. And by better idea, I mean something that was more helpful than the first idea.

But, just because every idea that someone has isn't going to be implement, doesn't mean that people's ideas aren't important. If you buy a lot of plat and/or a veteran, you're opinions are highly valued. But, when all the dust settles, STS has to do what is best for the game. You would too, if you were them.

I suggest that people stop complaining that Winter Fest isn't cheap. It would hurt the game if it was.

[kallima]

@Aikiebo - i thought you were going to keep your posts shorter? :p

As someone that managed their family's business(es) and having held numerous supervisory position in the corporate world as well, I an tell you that ALL feedback is valuable. Complaints (and compliments) are what keep a business relevant, encourage them to stay competitive, and help them improve on weakenesses, both predicted and unforeseen. But it is their voice to do with as they please. Suggesting that people stop complaining, no matter how politely it's done, is quite presumptuous.

I think you misunderstand our statements or views. Let me make this clear, I'm pretty sure EVERYONE wants STS to thrive - their complaints are an attempt to make it better. WE are the same people who did NOT need to buy plat for their 1yr anniversary, but did so as a THANK YOU, to show our appreciation. I hardly think those actions indicate anything else other than a true desire to see STS flourish. WE ALL UNDERSTAND it's a business - but businesses can increase revenue a multitude of ways other than increasing the pricepoint (and in this case a VERY steep spike). There is more than one way to succeed in business other than gouging a loyal customer base.

As far as ideas go, we are not self-centered children who expect our every whimsy to be indulged, but when we ask very pertinent questions about why they contradicted their OWN statements - and we don't get an answer - that's NOT listening.

Yes, there were some rage posts (by both sides, I might add) but don't take our words out of context. I don't think I read one single post that said, "I'm a veteran, therefore my opinion matters more." As far as your other point concerning ragefest '11 - some did want free, some wanted discounted - but mainly we wanted a heads-up that such an extreme price hike was coming. Have you seen the fallout when petro companies raise their rates (STS essentially charged 10plat last year & using average customer runs from '10 - increasesd it by a minimum of 10x that amount for '11, of course it's not going to be pretty. Again, I will state that there are other ways for a company to be successful.

[Aikiebo]

I can tell you that ALL feedback is valuable.

Suggesting that people stop complaining is quite presumptuous.

but businesses can increase revenue a multitude of ways other than increasing the pricepoint

As far as ideas go, we are not self-centered children who expect our every whimsy to be indulged, but when we ask very pertinent questions about why they contradicted their OWN statements - and we don't get an answer - that's NOT listening.

but don't take our words out of context. I don't think I read one single post that said, "I'm a veteran, therefore my opinion matters more."

but mainly we wanted a heads-up that such an extreme price hike was coming. Have you seen the fallout when petro companies raise their rates

I will state that there are other ways for a company to be successful.




My negativity concerns issues that have yet to be answered. The ever increasing direction of a plat driven PL. As a community, several solutions were offerred and none were applied.

Until they justify those aforementioned issues or implement a true fix, I will continue to voice my "negative" opinions various ways, by repeating it ad nauseum (until I get a real answer)

Hey!

First, lets focus on the things that I think we ALL agree on, ok?

This thread is about the WF update - nothing else. Agree?

Customer feedback is vital to any business. Agree?

One reason STS gave us this forum is that we could give them our feedback. Agree?

Forum members, even if they are mad, are not supposed to lobby, flame, rage, or otherwise troll? Agree?

Forum members, even if they are really, really, really mad, are not supposed to lobby, flame, rage, or otherwise troll? Agree?

Players who buy lots of plat should not have more clout. Agree?

Veterans should not have more clout. Agree?

STS is a business that needs to profit in order to make their games even better than they are now. Agree?

STS should listen to all feedback and then choose what, if any, they will implement. Agree?

STS must, i.e. they have to, choose NOT to implement ideas that are NOT as helpful as other ideas. The better ideas win. Agree?

Just because an idea wasn't implemented, doesn't mean that it wasn't heard. This is true anywhere in the universe. Agree?

Some ideas are better than others. This is also true anywhere in the universe. Agree?

Anecdotal evidence sucks. Humanoids in other galaxies put their fingers down their throats to mock anecdotal evidence. Agree?

STS should use data (market research, player spending patterns, etc.) in addition to verbal feedback when making decisions. Agree?

STS should listen to ALL players not just the ones who use the forums. Agree?

The founders and employees of STS have far more information than the players. Agree?

Therefore, STS has a much better idea of what is best for the company and the games. Agree?

Platinum sales has been the primary way that STS gets income. Agree?

If anyone has suggestions on how STS can increase their profits besides raising plat prices or spamming us with other companies advertising, they should submit those ideas. Agree?

If there are no other ideas that would actually work then there is no point in whining about high prices. Agree?

STS has the right to base their prices on what they think is best for the game and their company. Agree?

STS uses player feedback, data and gut instinct to determine prices. Agree?

If a player doesn't want to pay those prices, they don't have to. Agree?

STS uses player feedback, data and gut instinct to make changes in gameplay. Agree?

STS has always answered players when they asked why a certain gameplay change has been made. Agree?

Some players don't like the explanation STS gave. So, instead of accepting the fact that this is STS's game, they have a ton more information than any of the players, and they are doing what is best for the game, some players just proclaim that no answer was ever given even tho one was. Agree?

If a player only wants the Winter Fest vanities, they can get them cheaper this year than last year. Agree?

The only players that need to spend very much plat on WF at all are farmers and collectors. Agree?

If players want to benefit from farming or collecting, they should have to invest. Agree?

If players want to do a lot of farming or collecting they should have to invest more than those who just want to do a little bit of farming or collecting. Agree?

Players have only claimed to have three problems with this WF update. They want free or cheap access to pinks, they are upset because they don't feel their feedback is being heard and they wanted more notice about the changes. Agree?

It has been established that any other pricing plan would be unfair to all players and hurt the game by bringing in less revenue. Agree?

It has been established that just because a piece of feedback isn't immediately implemented doesn't mean it wasn't heard and isn't valued. Agree?

The biggest problem with the 2-plat per run was the shock, surprise and confusion. Agree?

STS has acknowledged this and has vowed to change the way things are communicated. Agree?

They are already doing a fantastic job. Agree?

If a player can create games as good as these, AND continue to stay ahead of the competition AND at all times make EVERYONE happy, that player should do so. Because we would all love to see that. Agree?

In fact, those humonoids from those other galaxies would fly their spaceships all the way to Earth because they'd love to see this also. Agree?

[kallima]

@Aikiebo

As much as I would like to continue this discourse ad infinitum, I feel it would be a dis-service to others because I do not want for anyone's feedback to get lost in a circular argument between our posts, which for better or worse is unduly taking up space.

I will keep it short and sweet - disagree. If you want to know why, we can handle it via pm because I am bot going to promote bogging down this thread with long-winded arguments.

Cheers and happy holidays.

[Aikiebo]

Every major concern that players on this forum have voiced have been responded to by the devs. For example, some players do not like the low-level xp anywhere elixrs. The devs have repeatedly answered players questions about this. They have said that the purpose of this elixir is so that players can play the game with their friends or guild mates. When concern was voiced that this could be abused, the devs raised the price to 60 plat an hour. Several times this was explained that it was designed to curtail abuse. Just because a few players may not agree with what the devs are doing, doesn't mean they haven't addressed concerns. They do a better job than the devs on other games.

Btw, if you want a good laugh, Google "anecdotal evidence".

For now, this is all, I'm taking off for the holiday. I hope everyone has a wonderful time, Many warm regards to all.

[Tsarra]

Every major concern that players on this forum have voiced have been responded to by the devs. For example, some players do not like the low-level xp anywhere elixrs. The devs have repeatedly answered players questions about this. They have said that the purpose of this elixir is so that players can play the game with their friends or guild mates. When concern was voiced that this could be abused, the devs raised the price to 60 plat an hour. Several times this was explained that it was designed to curtail abuse. Just because a few players may not agree with what the devs are doing, doesn't mean they haven't addressed concerns. They do a better job than the devs on other games.

Btw, if you want a good laugh, Google "anecdotal evidence".

For now, this is all, I'm taking off for the holiday. I hope everyone has a wonderful time, Many warm regards to all.

Man, I am seeing this all over the internet today. I work with a guy just like YOU, too. Geez, interwebz.

Merry Christmas and all that.

[lionblaze149]

I agree that it should be a 1-time purchase, but does everyone need to get so upset? Alls thats really on the line are items? In the long run, would you pay a ton of money for virtual money? I wouldn't.

[Bwahahagirl]

I think that this "pay per entry" thing wasn't a smart idea, but it's not like anyone's making you pay it. I decided not to participate in the festival this year. I just put on my antlers and said "happy holidays" on the sidelines. If you don't want to pay, then why would you?

[Swimmingstar]

This died down...

[kallima]

Eh, it's Jan 5, horse is dead and I'm tired of beating it. :p

[Aikiebo]

Eh, it's Jan 5, horse is dead and I'm tired of beating it. :p

Winter Fest is still going on. And, I'm glad the only people who determine if a post is acceptable are the devs.

But, you know, you guys that went on those long rants and raged on so much, well, you kinda got me thinking that, well, maybe you're on to something. Let's see.

You wanted STS to implement some sort of pass so that players could access Winter Fest content cheaply. The "logic" that came handcuffed to the pass idea was that STS would actually make MORE money because.........oh yeah, "so many more people would buy the pass". Now........ isn't that just the cutest little win-win you ever saw!

I'm thinking a lot of businesses should develop some sort of pass - like a monthly pass. Everybody likes a cute win-win.

For instance, instead of Starbucks charging us for every cup of coffe we order, they could sell us a pass so that we can order as many cups of coffee as we want for that whole month.

Hmmm.......... I wonder if that would be profitable.

Well, they certainly would sell lots and lots and lots of passes. I'm sure their little stores would be mobbed every minute of every day with people trying to get something for....well, for practically nothing.

And if the goal of a business was ONLY to have lots of customers, then the pass idea would work great.

But the goal is to make a profit. You have to sell your product at a price that will make a profit. Once you have decided how much to charge, THEN you can try to get a lot of customers.

But, if you lose money on every cup that's sold, the pass idea wouldn't be a good one, would it?

Then of course, OUR FAVORITE, McDonalds, could sell us a pass where we could order as many Big Macs as we wanted to all month long. You could just go there every day as many times as you wanted to and order as many Big Macs as you want. How yummy!!

I wonder how many people would want to buy that pass? I bet you bunches of people would.

Unless, OH NO!!!! They had to make the pass hugely expensive. I mean a masssive, gigantic sum of money.

Hmmm.... well, it was an idea. Maybe Starbucks should just go on selling us one cup of coffee at a time. And maybe McDonalds should not print up too many of those expensive monthly passes - probably wouldn't be a huge seller.

The 2 plat per run for Winter Fest makes perfect sense. As we all know:

1. Winter Fest is OPTIONAL.

2. Free-2play games like Pocket Legends make their income from OPTIONAL content.

3. The free-2-play business model IS DESGINED FROM THE VERY BEGINNING so that only a small portion of players buy the optional content.

4. This benefits the other players who don't/can't spend money. They get to play the game for free.

5. Free-2-play video games is a multi-million dollar industry.

6. They all operate on this same principle. Everyone gets to play. The only people who pay are the ones that WANT to.

7. A Winter Fest all access pass would have to be so incredibly expensive. No one would buy it and everyone would scream about how unfair life is.

[kallima]

The thread pretty much died as swimming stated, I basically said same in a fun, light hearted way and we get yet another longvwinded reply. Do you just love to hear yourself talk? Here is a BIG ROUND OF APPLAUSE since you seem to be in desperate need of it. Or better yet, here's my stick so you can continue to beat the same dead horse.

Brevity is a virtue.

[Aikiebo]

Brevity is a virtue.

So is logic.

Lol, hahahahha

Wait.... are you saying that:

I got more logic but not enough brevity
and
You got more brevity but not enough logic?

OK, let me THINK about that for a sec. Hmmmm....... hmmmmm........ I'm making the pose like "The Thinker" (the statue, not the poem or SL helm).

Oh, shoot! I just lost my train of thought. Let me see, you were saying that:

I got more logic but not enough brevity
and
You got more brevity but not enough logic?

Hmmm.......

Yep! I might just have to go along with that idea. I mean, if that is what your're saying. Lol Hahahahahahhahhaha, lol

Oh, relax! I'm just having a bit of fun fun. You got to cut me a break, after all wasn't it you or one of the other ring leaders that broke the bad news to the forum that I was suffering from Stockholm Syndrome? That Stockholm Syndrom...... man, it's some ruff stuff. LOL


[QUOTE=kallima:521513]
Suggesting that people stop complaining is quite presumptuous.

Suggesting that people shouldn't post thoughts that disagree with yours, might just be a wee presumptuos also, lol.

I don't know if you realize, but WF is still going on. People can post on this patch update anytime they want, if they not breaking any forum rules and ESPECIALLY while WF is still happening.

The post that lionblaze149 made came after what appears to be about a 3 week break from the board. His last post was saying he was having tech problems with chrome. I have no idea, but I imagine that between the tech issues and holiday obligations, he couldn't post for a while.

When, he did post, the previous post had only been four days earlier. That's a ok thing to do. People do that all the time.

I myself took a 2 week break from the board. On Christmas Eve I said I was breaking for the holiday. My next post was the one that you don't like and came only 11 hours after you bumped the thread.

Winter Fest is still going on. People can post. If you want to silence thoughts that disagree with yours, I suggest you stop bumping the thread, lol. I'm not telling you not to post, I don't have that right. I'm just saying, if you're uneasy about opposing veiw points being heard, you may want to stop bumping the thread, lol.


Until they justify those aforementioned issues or implement a true fix, I will continue to voice my "negative" opinions various ways, by repeating it ad nauseum (until I get a real answer)

Btw, over at Ad Nauseum.com they're looking for a new mascot for 2012. You might have a real shot at it!

Ok, so back on topic. Parts of bwahahagirl and lionblaze149's posts I agree with. And was trying to add to the converstation. Yeah, I don't think that people should have made such a big deal about it. It was highly inappropriate.

[kallima]

I have met many people of your caliber and will do what I have done in the past, ignore them as they are non-factors. I never said you shouldn't post but was questioning with whom you are continuing this discourse.

I have not been the only one to tell you that you twist words and stack the deck to support your "points/arguments."

I have not been the only one to tell you that your posts and feedback monopolize any discussion or thread in which you are involved. Apparently, you have such a grandiose opinion of yourself that you have taken none of the constructive criticism to heart. So I will do what so many are already doing, just not read your posts.

[Aikiebo]

I'm thinking a lot of businesses should develop some sort of pass - like a monthly pass...

About the 'pass', it's called 'gift cards' Billions of dollars are spent each year on merchant-specific gift cards. You can spend that 'money' only at those merchants.

Just had to say... you're right. It's being done already. STS did not lead.

Hey!

Fyrce, I'm not sure what you're thinking, but montly passes and gift cards are way, way, way two different things. They have nothing to do with each other.

STS doesn't have a gift card. I don't think Android has a gift card. If a player is using iOS, they can use an I-tunes gift card to buy plat.

But, an I-tunes gift card is not some sort of monthly pass.

Both, Starbucks and McDonalds have gift cards. You can go to McDonalds and give them $20 and they'll give you a gift card. Then you can give that to someone as a gift or keep it for yourself to use. But, in no way, is it some sort of monthly pass.

[Aikiebo]

I basically said same in a fun, light hearted way and we get yet another longvwinded reply. Do you just love to hear yourself talk?*

Brevity is a virtue.

You said you wanted fun and lighthearted, so I gave you bit o' fun and light heartedness.

Yeah, a few people have complained on the length of my posts. In my over 300 posts, I think that someone has complained 3 or 4 times. Every time they did, I showed them that they were wrong. For example:

1. In the last HALF of just THIS thread.

2. There are 16 posts longer than mine.

3. About half of those 16 are twice as long as mine.

4. Kalima, you made a post in this thread that is longer than mine.

5. In fact, Kalima, your post in twice as long as mine.

6. I have screen shots of all these posts.

The following is the opening paragraph of the post that you made that is 2x longer than mine.


I have not been able to post my feedback as I was limited to only mobile devices and knew my feedback would be rather long-winded. So forgive the delay as the point seems pretty moot now.

If I seem to be a bit stern in this post, I am sorry, but it is getting bit tiresome to be attacked by someone who is critisizing me for something they are worse at.

Frankly, a lot of short posts are just someone agreeing with someone else. While, I have no problem with that, sometimes it takes a while to say what you are trying to say. In fact, many short posts are just someone sucking up to someone else. Which, I got no problem with but you can't file that under the heading 'Something Wonderful', you can only file that under the heading 'Something Acceptable'.

Your post was twice as long as mine. It is obvious, the only reason you are complaing about mine is because I was disagreeing with you.


I have not been the only one to tell you that you twist words and stack the deck to support your "points/arguments."


If I'm incorrect in any of my two previous points, please quote them or direct me to the link

No one has told me that I twist words or stack the deck. Just as you said above, please back that up in the form of quotes or links. You can't cuz it didn't happen. It is not possible to show me even one example of me twisting anybody's words around. Because it never happened.

I'm not sure that you even know what 'stack the deck' means.

It is so hilarious when people get mad because someone else had a better idea: For example:

Guy A has an idea and three points of logic to back up that idea.

Guy B has 12 points of logic that shows that Guy A's idea was, well, kinda gooftastic.

Guy A gets all mad.

It's not Guy B's fault if Guy A's idea wasn't too logical.

Don't get mad. Just come up with better ideas.


I have not been the only one to tell you that your posts and feedback monopolize any discussion or thread in which you are involved. Apparently, you have such a grandiose opinion of yourself that you have taken none of the constructive criticism to heart. So I will do what so many are already doing, just not read your posts.

This is another example of someone attacking me for something that I'm not even doing at all. And that they do very frequently.

When I post some ideas, I welcome critisism and discussion. There are a few people on this board, for example, the ring leaders of rage fest, who fly into rages when someone disagrees with them. They believe that they have such a grandiose opinion of themselves and ideas that they feel they are untouchable. That no one should have the right to disagree with them.

If someone's ideas are so frail that they would shatter at the least bit of scrutiny, but they want the devs to hear the idea, they shouldn't post 'em on the board. they should just PM a dev with the idea. Why? Because the purpose of this forum (read the first 3 paragraphas of the forum rules) is to foster open and free discussion.

If someone thinks their ideas are too precious for open debate, don't post them, PM them.

[Snakespeare]

Fortunately, today the WF closes and in its place, there will be pay-to-play Boss Brawls. With any luck this will make the boss brawl population decrease to almost nothing, then they will get deleted to make room for awesome future content.

[Sapient]

You said you wanted fun and lighthearted, so I gave you bit o' fun and light heartedness.

Yeah, a few people have complained on the length of my posts. In my over 300 posts, I think that someone has complained 3 or 4 times. Every time they did, I showed them that they were wrong. For example:

1. In the last HALF of just THIS thread.
2. There are 16 posts longer than mine.
3. About half of those 16 are twice as long as mine.
4. Kalima, you made a post in this thread that is longer than mine.
5. In fact, Kalima, your post in twice as long as mine.
6. I have screen shots of all these posts.
The following is the opening paragraph of the post that you made that is 2x longer than mine.

A few words are always stronger then many, if they have good relevance.

As for this topic, the winter festival passed and the only feedback that should be given is suggestions for next years festival in the suggestions forums. Aikiebo, if you wish to continue your debate with the engaged players, please do so through private message, such forum clutter is unnecessary.

[elrond]

Fortunately, today the WF closes and in its place, there will be pay-to-play Boss Brawls. With any luck this will make the boss brawl population decrease to almost nothing, then they will get deleted to make room for awesome future content.

My question is what are they going to do about people who payed for levels that included boss brawls (swamps, skeller returns, etc.) before they made the main spine free. We have already paid for this content, do we then have to pay to use the content we already paid to get?

[kallima]

The only reason I will respond is because you attacked my character. As I stated earlier in this thread if you want to continue a personal debate PM me, and we can continue ad infinitum.

1. Quote me where I said or implied "do NOT post your ideas." To me, WF is a dead horse, it was Jan 5th, the devs obviously were not going to change anything so why beat it? I actually even handed over my figurative "beat stick." I did NOT engage in any discourse with you so why was I quoted in your dissertation of a reply? AGAIN, I only asked "with whom are you having this discourse"; YOU quoted ME so of course I was wondering why you are continuing a convo with me. That ONE question AGAIN, triggered a novella of a reoly.

2. I had ONE post longer than your AVERAGE post, my long posts are less than 10% of my total post count, I doubt you can say same. Not ONE person has complailned on the length of any of my posts. My issue is not that your opinion differs from mine but in the manner in which its done. You repeating the SAME idea using diferent words/synonyms does not make it any more true. I have no pattern of lengthy posts that monopolize or clutter a thread - that pattern is uniquely yours.

3. You want me to quote where someone else said you twist words; Page 5, Post 87, BOLDED in point 8 of this thread - http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?44384-Official-Feedback-Thread-for-Purchasing-High-and-Low-level-Dungeon-Access/page5

4. As far as attacking you and your insinuation that I am "ringleader" of anything is downright funny. YOU are the one making peresonal attacks. I have ignored your posts where you imply "I'm a bad boss, that I am illogical, and a bully." All I have consistently said is please keep your posts shorter. An insult, however cleverly disguised in the abyundance of words, or how innocently implied is STILL an insult. That Stockholm Syndrome comment was not made by me, get your facts straight. And if you are using fallacious arguments and stacking the deck to impugn me publicly - I will defend myself. BUT LETS KEEP IT VIA PM, I respect my fellow forumers enough to not clutter threads with PERSONAL debates but have let multiple insults slide, enough is enough.

5. I didn't visit adnauseum.com but suffice it to say, I AM SATISFIED THAT THERE ARE NO PARODIES OF ME, on any other forum.

*****to my fellow forumers, again my apologies for both the nature and length of this unnecessary post.

P.S. DID everyone know that you can IGNORE a forum user!? That hitting the ignore button prevents you from being subjected to their posts? Activating now...

[Gaddy]

My question is what are they going to do about people who payed for levels that included boss brawls (swamps, skeller returns, etc.) before they made the main spine free. We have already paid for this content, do we then have to pay to use the content we already paid to get?wow. Keep the aspidistra flying, bro!

I wouldn't hold my breath for anything if I were you...

[Aikiebo]

My question is what are they going to do about people who payed for levels that included boss brawls (swamps, skeller returns, etc.) before they made the main spine free. We have already paid for this content, do we then have to pay to use the content we already paid to get?

Elrond, that is a good question. No, the content that was already paid for doesn't have to be paid for again. The new boss gauntlets they are talking about are simply ADDITIONAL AND NEW maps. That just like Winter Fest, follow the excellent idea of the turnstyle, plat-per-use model. Boss guantlets that people have been able to play all along are still there unchanged.




1. The only reason I will respond is because you attacked my character.

2. Quote me where I said or implied "do NOT post your ideas."

3. To me, WF is a dead horse, it was Jan 5th,

4. the devs obviously were not going to change anything

5. YOU quoted ME so of course I was wondering why you are continuing a convo with me.

6. I had ONE post longer than your AVERAGE post,

7. My issue is not that your opinion differs from mine but in the manner in which its done.

8. You repeating the SAME idea using diferent words/synonyms does not make it any more true.

9. You want me to quote where someone else said you twist words; Page 5, Post 87, BOLDED in point 8 of this thread - http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?44384-Official-Feedback-Thread-for-Purchasing-High-and-Low-level-Dungeon-Access/page5

10. I have ignored your posts where you imply "I'm a bad boss, that I am illogical, and a bully."

11. All I have consistently said is please keep your posts shorter.

12. That Stockholm Syndrome comment was not made by me, get your facts straight.

13. stacking the deck to impugn me publicly

14. to my fellow forumers, again my apologies for both the nature and length of this unnecessary post.

15. you can IGNORE a forum user

Hey Kalima,

You seem upset, I hope not. That is never a good thing.

There is a really odd, weird and kinda whacky thing about you last post: You waited four full days before posting it. I mean, I stopped talking about this subject a full four days before you posted this. I agreed with others that it was beginning to die down. And I said everything that I had to say on the subject. That is why I stopped speaking on it a full four days before you posted this.

Now, don't get me wrong: I COULDN'T CARE LESS that you waited four days. I am not one of those obnoxious forum members who go around acting like they have the right to dicate to others how they should act on the forum. So the fact that you waited four days, don't bother me at all. You, like everyone else, has the right to post as long as they not breaking any forum rules. It's just that, you are complaining that I monopolize a thread. Umm.. no. I was done.

In fact, two days after I stopped posting, someone came on and made a comment that to some extent disagreed with my ideas. If I had wanted to continue the discussion, It would have been completely reasonable for me to do so in response to him. But, hmm.. I had said everything I wanted to say and I was done.

But, moving on....

To very quickly answer some of you concerns in your last post on this thread:

1. I never have attacked your or anyone else's character. Not once, ever. Hasn't happened.

In the very last post on this thread that I made, I defended myselt from attacks that you made against me many many times. But, while I did that, I didn't attack you once.

In fact, you have made so many attacks against me I said, it was actually getting 'tiring' to read them.


If I seem to be a bit stern in this post, I am sorry, but it is getting bit tiresome to be attacked by someone who is critisizing me for something they are worse at.

But, even after saying that I never attacked your character. It is impossible for you to show me where I did. The closet thing, I guess, is where I said the only reason you were complaining about my long posts is because they disagree with you. That's not an attack, its my opinion based on many facts. But, it's not an attack, so no need to worry about that.

2. I can't quote that because I never said that even once. I don't know what you mean, actually.

3. You posted on Jan. 4 that you thought WF was a dead horse or w/e. But, see, you said, "to me". Apparently, you didn't want to discuss it. But it obvioius that other people did. Which means, if you were no longer interested all you needed to do was ignore the other people's posts. Is it possible, that you did this because those two members were - in part - disagreeing with you?

If you really weren't even interested, why did you even open the thread on Jan. 4 and take the time to post? There are a lot of threads that for what ever reason don't interest me. But I don't go on 'em and tell them that people shouldn't post.

Just cuz some issue may be dead for me, don't mean it is dead for anybody else. I am not the center of the universe. This forum is not a personal, private playground for me. I don't get to decide what other members post on.

4. You said: "it is obvious the devs aren't going to change anything". Exactly, why should they? It seems obvious that Winter Fest was a huge success. I am very glad that so many people had such great fun.

5. Yes, I quoted you. I'm not sure why that bothers you tho. I was talking to you as well as everyone else also. And that is an ok thing to do. I'm not sure what, well, what you are actually complaining about here, sorry.

6. Yes, I have long posts. So, does many, many other people. You didn't complain about any of their long posts cuz they were agreeing with you. In mine, reallly the idea is not to disagree with someone as it is to show that an idea that is being suggested isn't very logical. That it doesn't make sense and would in fact hurt the game if implemented. That is all.

In the last half of this thread, 16 people had posts longer than the one you were complaining about. Yeah, I have long posts, so do others. If people don't want to read a long post, they shouldn't do so. Just like elixirs, if people don't want to use 'em, there is no reason they should. Just like the 2-plat per boss run/wf thing, if they don't want to do that, there is no reason they should. In other words, reading a long post is optional. Don't do it if you don't want to.

All these long posts in this thread and hundreds of other threads, don't get deleted by the devs. In fact one of my long posts on this thread got thanked by a dev. Other long posts got thanked by a dev.

No post should ever be longer than it needs to be. Also, no post should ever be shorter than it needs to be. As long as there is not forum rule violations, each member has the right to decide how long or short their post is gonna be. Each member has the right to decide what posts they want to read.

Sometimes seven words can have huge impact. Sometimes more than seven words are needed. Either way is ok. (This very paragraph is a excellent example of that idea.)

7. Unless someone is doing something to break the rules, it doesn't matter 'the manner' in which they post. I don't get to dictate to others 'the manner' in which they post. No forum member gets to do that.

8. Very true. Which is exactly one of the reasons that Rage Fest was so awful. A handful of people going from thread to thread to thread to thread saying the same thing over and over again. So, it seems like on this point, we agree.


Until they justify those aforementioned issues or implement a true fix, I will continue to voice my "negative" opinions various ways, by repeating it ad nauseum (until I get a real answer)

9. This is a good example of you accusing me of something - I'm not even doing - and that you are way worse of. This quote that you linked to, why don't we show the WHOLE thing. Instead of leaving out details that 'stack the deck':


Everyone has a say, well not so much a say, but everyone is completely able to give their opinions and feedback to STS about these new elixrs. Are you saying, I'm sure you are not, cuz this would be awful and I know that you are not this way, but are you saying you should have more say because you buy loads of plat?
That's not at all what I'm trying to say. You and I both know it. I'm trying to say that PL requires teamwork in parties. It's a reason why it's called a party. You're only as strong as your weakest link; I'm assuming you heard of that quote. But what happens when you have many weak links? That's when I feel there is a problem. Honestly, if the Ao2/Ao3 had to show us anything, it WILL happen. Also, I'd appreciate if you didn't twist my wording like that. It's not what I meant, you and I both know it.


The part that I underlined (or tried to, lol, the part 'tween the two [U]'s) is that part that shows that I was not twisting words, but merely asking for clarification. just cuz someone makes an accusation, don't mean it's true. Here is another example:


Instead of diffusing the situation they fan the flames even further by using remarks that are plain insulting. Let me quote a few examples that have particularly stood out: "we are ungrateful zealots," "spoiled, whining crybabies," and "entitled brats who expect everything for free."

it's an affront to even have to defend our opinions against those kind of remarks.

How would you feel, after spending several hours (as some have done) to formulate their thoughts and suggestions in a thread - to be only told that the only reason you feel this way is because you are either "ungrateful, spoiled, entitled or just a crybaby?"

I am not a sensitive person but if you can dish it, I expect you to be able to take it. Sadly, that does not seem to be the case with some.

It's a fact that a handful of people went raged on and on. You claim that someone called the ragers: "we are ungrateful zealots," "spoiled, whining crybabies," and "entitled brats who expect everything for free." (these are obviously not actual direct quotes, btw). (Just practicing my 'bold' skills, lol)

It is not the purpose of this thread to discuss if the ragers were in fact "we are ungrateful zealots," "spoiled, whining crybabies," and "entitled brats who expect everything for free."

But, my question to you is: Just cuz the accusation was made, does it make it true? No, if the ragers were "we are ungrateful zealots," "spoiled, whining crybabies," and "entitled brats who expect everything for free." it would be because of the things they did. Not simply cuz someone accused them of doing it.

In other words, an accusation, isn't proof.

But in the above quote, I especially like what you said in the last paragraph.

10. I never implied that you were a bad boss.

11. You said: "All I have consistently said is please keep your posts shorter." LOL, lol, I have tons of screen shots that show otherwise.

12. You said: "The Stockholm Symdrom remark [read insult] was not made by me, get your facts straight". Uh uhh uhhhh.... another example of you critisizing me for something I never do but that you are worse at. Please don't twist my words.


Oh, relax! I'm just having a bit of fun fun. You got to cut me a break, after all wasn't it you or one of the other ring leaders that broke the bad news to the forum that I was suffering from Stockholm Syndrome? That Stockholm Syndrom...... man, it's some ruff stuff. LOL

13. I did not impugn you publically. I merely discussed the ideas that you were suggeting and showed that they weren't too logically. Nothing about you personally at all.

14. I feel the same way.

15. I agree, if someone is actually bothered by long posts or posts that disagree with them, they probably shouldn't read them. This would make the forums a lot more peaceful.

At his point, I agree, if you want to discuss this more, probably PM would be the best way. Hope you had a good holiday. And here is hoping you have a good 2012.

[StompArtist]

Good Lord. Is there a max post size on the forums?

[Aikiebo]

Good Lord. Is there a max post size on the forums?

I've asked that a couple of times and no one has answered so far.

[adidaman]

Well, it was great while it lasted...

[Sapient]

I've asked that a couple of times and no one has answered so far.

60,000 characters max per post.


http://www.spacetimestudios.com/private.php?do=newpm&u=34820

I think you should to use it instead of debating in a dead thread.

[Scottred]

Merry Xmas until dec.