Dodge vs Armour

[Primal]

I was wondering if 6 dodge is better than 13 armour or vice versa. More like 12 dodge vs 26 armour. No time to search, so I posted the question. Thx a bunch.

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[CrimsonTider]

Dodge > armor

Think of it this way, if you have a better chance at dodging, the amountbof armor doesn't matter cause you're not getting hit. No damage is better than partial damage.

[LelouchX]

I guess it depends on your level and total armor. If you are a bird, the armor may come in handy. If this was SL, i would say dodge without a doubt, but in PL, armor works differently (pretty sure it's still like this, but correct me if i'm wrong). +1 armor = -1 damage you take. so if an enemy/opponents damage output is 100, and your armor is 106, he should only do damage on you if he crits. if you take the dodge, then your armor would be 80, and he would do 20 damage since his attack is 100.

It's really your decision though, if you are a bird with a good tank, you shouldn't get focused on much so the dodge would be helpful because you have a better chance of escaping the attack if the bear loses aggro on an enemy for a few seconds. if you are a bear, you probably want the higher armor. Just my take on it, i also have only done PvP in SL, so this is just my PvE suggestion. I'm sure someone more qualified will post soon enough, hope i helped a bit.

Edit: or a master ninja like crimson will beat me to it :D

[Appleisaac]

Unless your in a newbie dungeon like dark forest you never get enemies who attack with less force then your armor btw

I think dodge is better for both pvp and pve. Why do you need armor if you can't be hit? ;-)

[Primal]

Shield set for Emma. Lelouch ty for your input. I'm gonna get the shield. :)

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[CrimsonTider]

I guess it depends on your level and total armor. If you are a bird, the armor may come in handy. If this was SL, i would say dodge without a doubt, but in PL, armor works differently (pretty sure it's still like this, but correct me if i'm wrong). +1 armor = -1 damage you take. so if an enemy/opponents damage output is 100, and your armor is 106, he should only do damage on you if he crits. if you take the dodge, then your armor would be 80, and he would do 20 damage since his attack is 100.

It's really your decision though, if you are a bird with a good tank, you shouldn't get focused on much so the dodge would be helpful because you have a better chance of escaping the attack if the bear loses aggro on an enemy for a few seconds. if you are a bear, you probably want the higher armor. Just my take on it, i also have only done PvP in SL, so this is just my PvE suggestion. I'm sure someone more qualified will post soon enough, hope i helped a bit.

Edit: or a master ninja like crimson will beat me to it :D

LOL... I am no ninja. My bones creek too much to sneak up on anyone!

As for bears, dodge is king. As we gather mobs, if we don't dodge, we are getting hit. Yes, high armor helps but hits equal stun and that affects our ability to crowd control. It can lead to beckoning too soon and results in mob scattering (a pet peeve of mine.) The higher the dodge, the less likely I am to be hit and spend time spamming pots to keep my health up. I can run right through a mob without being touched and control much easier.

Since you are talking about birds, yes, armor does help but you also want to deal damage. Just as a bears job is to gain aggro and control the mobs, a birds job is to deal damage. Just make sure your able to do so. ;)

[zeusabe]

(PVE) On paper, dodge will always be better than armor, in reality though having high dodge doesn't mean you dodge every time this is where armor comes in. Bears have evasion skill + iron blood + hp spam pots, I would say armor is still king for bears and dodge only a bonus not an essential, as long as you don't die in one hit, dodge will remain to be a luxury stat while armor is an essential, so that's my take for bears. Imagine a boxer being very slick but has a glass jaw. You can get away with it and maybe go on without a loss for a couple of fights, but you're leaving a lot to chance, a single lag can spell your death for example. For mages, armor is king as well because mages do not have access to any skill that will boost their dodge to a "significant" point anyway, might as well focus on armor to compliment the armor buff. Birds, dodge is king, they are fragile cannons, they have no other means to keep their "multiple" enemies off them like stomp and fireblast, no buff that will support armor aside from restore which is insignificant if you know how to use pots properly, they're health pool is low, they can go down fast even pots can't do much in some instances so this is when dodge turns from luxury to an essential. Paired with evasion and hit debuff, birds are built to dodge and run away. In summary, bears = armor, mage = armor, bird = dodge. That's my opinion. Thanks.

[CrimsonTider]

(PVE) On paper, dodge will always be better than armor, in reality though having high dodge doesn't mean you dodge every time this is where armor comes in. Bears have evasion skill + iron blood + hp spam pots, I would say armor is still king for bears and dodge only a bonus not an essential, as long as you don't die in one hit, dodge will remain to be a luxury stat while armor is an essential, so that's my take for bears. Imagine a boxer being very slick but has a glass jaw. You can get away with it and maybe go on without a loss for a couple of fights, but you're leaving a lot to chance, a single lag can spell your death for example. For mages, armor is king as well because mages do not have access to any skill that will boost their dodge to a "significant" point anyway, might as well focus on armor to compliment the armor buff. Birds, dodge is king, they are fragile cannons, they have no other means to keep their "multiple" enemies off them like stomp and fireblast, no buff that will support armor aside from restore which is insignificant if you know how to use pots properly, they're health pool is low, they can go down fast even pots can't do much in some instances so this is when dodge turns from luxury to an essential. Paired with evasion and hit debuff, birds are built to dodge and run away. In summary, bears = armor, mage = armor, bird = dodge. That's my opinion. Thanks.

I disagree completely with respect to bears. If this were the case, bears would not have two skills which provide dodge (evade and taunt with taunt stacking) and strength gear, especially at endgame, would not provide insane amounts of dodge. Yes, higher armor does help lower the overall damage provided from a mob attack, but your quote about birds needing to dodge to slice through enemies is the same argument for bears.

As a bear tanks, as I stated previously, dodge allows a bear to gather mobs to a particular area, beckon and stomp into a group without being touched. If dodge was not high, we would constantly be stunned, which stops us in mid group, and causes us to spend more time spamming pots as the group attacks than gathering the mobs; our sole purpose in any pve game. As someone who has spent many, MANY hours as a tank and messed with many builds and equipment, tanking as a bow bear is much more difficult than tanking with strength gear. Yes, I generally have higher hit and deal more damage, but also get stunned a lot, spam more health pots, and unless I am with a good team, my runs are less efficient because I am stunned a lot more.

Yes, the ideal makeup is a mix of high dodge/armor (which bears have) but, and most bears will agree, dodge is king. You used boxing as an example. Mohammed Ali was the complete package; agile, strong, quick, and powerful. However, he was best known for his quickness to not only get those jabs and uppercuts quickly, but also not get pounded on. Do you think if he just stood up there, without the quickness and ability to "dodge" punches, he would have been as good a fighter? Maybe. But I'm sure he it was much easier for him to "Float likrle a butterfly, sting like a bee."

[JaytB]

I agree with what Crim said. Dodge > Armor IMO

[Primal]

Well, as a damage dealer I agree on dodge being king. I opted for defense for shield bearing purposes, since damage its no longer the primary purpose. And looking at Emma, I need to survive. I'm worried though cause when she targets me, I'm still toast. If I remember, I'll let you guys know how it goes without being targeted.

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[Primal]

O and it was 18 defence vs 6 dodge. Vampyr shield vs snarling one. (The orange one with plenty dodge). Level 61 btw.

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[Elyseon]

If ur armours high enough u dont take dmg either, dodge is good, but its luck, for instance someone might still hit u everytime, but against 13 armour, i would choose the dodge

[Primal]

I can confirm that Emma is no longer a threat, so long as she doesn't target me. More comfortable with a mage of course, but it good.

I seen a bird take little to no damage once. He soloed the last bit cause party was dead. I remember cause a vampyr fangs dropped. I was wondering how much defence I need to do that and will I need strength as well?

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[Moogerfooger]

As others have said, 6 dodge > 13 armor. In both, but especially pvp.

[WoundedEagle]

As others have said, 6 dodge > 13 armor. In both, but especially pvp.

Moog :D

[slaveleia]

Mooger! :-)

[Moogerfooger]

:rolleyes:

[Buddyf97]

I picture this as a large debate especially when it comes to bears at end-game. Both are very successful and have different pros and cons:
Dodge:
Absolutely amazing when stacked high and gives you that chance to dodge your opponent's combo, getting them frustrated. One downside is that there are a lot of dodge debuffs that take majority of your dodge, such as the bird's root.
Armor:
In my opinion, armor is there, but doesn't seem to make a HUGE difference at times but is constant. Dodge is more on the gamble side while armor tends to be more reliable. Armor debuffs don't take majority of your 250+ armor at endgame.

Dodge seems to be the better choice but try them out! Dodge gets frustrating at times but also is totally beast! If you arnt the gambling type, u might wanna try armor!

-Buddyf

[Whirlzap]

I'll give you the ACTUAL proof.
Dodge is ONLY better than armor if you get it really high.
Armor, means a guaranteed safeshield from high damage, EXCEPT critical damage.
I'm looking at Mages, Birds, and Bears.
Each have a critical buff.
Armor is useless in PvP if you're against something with over 60 critical.
That's why bears failed at Sewer Era.

However, dodge also is risky.
Dodge, actually has a cap.

Lovenus tested it a long time ago and found the cap to be around 30% or around that.
He stated, that there was no way the game would just let him dodge 1/3 of all hits.

However, the cap of 30% states the Opponent as having 100% Hit.
Most classes besides STR have over 100% hit.
So, it's actually around 40ish%, the dodge cap.

[Moogerfooger]

I'll give you the ACTUAL proof.
Dodge is ONLY better than armor if you get it really high.
Armor, means a guaranteed safeshield from high damage, EXCEPT critical damage.
I'm looking at Mages, Birds, and Bears.
Each have a critical buff.
Armor is useless in PvP if you're against something with over 60 critical.
That's why bears failed at Sewer Era.

However, dodge also is risky.
Dodge, actually has a cap.

Lovenus tested it a long time ago and found the cap to be around 30% or around that.
He stated, that there was no way the game would just let him dodge 1/3 of all hits.

However, the cap of 30% states the Opponent as having 100% Hit.
Most classes besides STR have over 100% hit.
So, it's actually around 40ish%, the dodge cap.

Not true about Dodge being capped at 30. I tested with Physiologic once, who had a hit of well over 100% of the time, and while buffed with Evasion on my bear to the point where my Dodge was well over 30 (I think it was like 40, and that was back in the Sewers when I had 30 base dodge), and he missed me 6 times in a row (or more) more than once, and we tested for about an hr off and on. It has something to do with your Dodge against enemy's hit, you are correct...but it is not capped at 30 as far as we could tell. No one has ever proved conclusively if Dodge has a cap. Some have guessed that Hit % is capped, but no one is quite sure, that I have ever seen/read.

[Cytokinesis]

However, dodge also is risky.
Dodge, actually has a cap.

Lovenus tested it a long time ago and found the cap to be around 30% or around that.
He stated, that there was no way the game would just let him dodge 1/3 of all hits.


I got 38% dodge on my bird once (unbuffed).

[Primal]

Well, it's like the man said, a huge debate. Last time I tried Emma, I got slaughtered with my armour so I switched to dodge. Only had 20%, but it got me back in for a min. I'm gonna have a snarling set on me just in case.

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[Imsebastiaanl]

Go for armor, 12 dodge is not enough in total to dodge many attacks. If you can get like 25 dodge, go for dodge.

[Primal]

Highest I can get is 32 and I wasn't impressed. Trying to get my armour much higher.

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[Bunnyshoota]

Actually, I believe it's best if you have high armor and high dodge. :)

[razerfingers]

No matter how high your armor is or health regen is in pvp a low lvl bird lets say 61 for example and you're a lvl 66 crafted orlok if the bird knows how to kite or how to stay outta range well you're golden but dodge does help a little bit sometimes you can get to close and be the end of you but you're talkin pve i think anyways thats my two cents from personal expirience lol

[Primal]

Actually, I believe it's best if you have high armor and high dodge. :)

I dig man. I switch my dagger for some dodge without sacrificing armour. :D

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[trunzoc]

I'm currently a lvl 65 full dex bird.

I tried 4 different sets in a few different situations...

1) I just got a full drainers set (with void wing since drainer's wing doesn't seem to exist) just to see what happens. I had 29 dodge, 143 armor.
2) My NORMAL max armor set (lvl 65 Vampyr set, except with a snarling quickstrike talon, or drainer dagger, depending on need) is 14 dodge, 200 armor.
3) My normal armor set with drainer's helm instead of vampyr is 20 dodge, 186 armor
4) My max damage set (full lvl 65 vampire dagger set) is 6 dodge, 189 armor, and 250+ more DPS than any of the other sets.

Situation A) Plasma Pyramid farming... Set #1 sucks. Didn't dodge nearly enough to make up for the tremendous amount of armor, mana regen, and DPS i sacrificed to get it. With set #4 I can walk away from the game with 5 mobs beating on me and come back 5 minutes later with full health. When killing, I can go non-stop spamming skills with no mana drain. With set #1 I actually almost died a couple times going at the same pace as with set #4, and my mana bar was empty very quickly. Sets #2 and #3 both performed well, but I think I actually preffered #3 over #2. Either way, none of them compared to #4 for efficiency in this dungeon.

Situation B) XP runs in Mt. Fang floors. #1 was pointless. With a decent group you don't get hit enough to warrant losing so much damage on the off chance that you do get attacked. #2 and #3 both worked well, and I did seem to take less damage when I did get aggro, but still suffered pretty hard in the damage dept. As a bird, if you play smart, I just don't think you get hit enough in normal xp runs to worry about needing more dodge.

Situation C) Bosses in fang that aren't named Aunt Emma. I found basically the same results as Situation B. If you play smart, you shouldn't get hit.

Situation D) Bosses in fang that ARE name Aunt Emma. I was hoping the Drainer set would prove itself here, but nope. Her normal screams were hitting me over 250 each and the 29 dodge did nothing to help that I could notice. sets #2 and #3 seems about the same again. Damage from her attacks were between 150-160. #4 didn't do well. With a dagger up close, she is tough without HP to keep you alive.


My conclusion...

If you're playing a level that you can solo, go for the quicker kill than the higher armor.
If you are playing in groups, play smart. to the party overall, the DPS more than makes up for the higher armor and playing smart is better than armor/dodge rating.
Against bosses, unless they AOE, damage and smart gameplay is better than armor/dodge.

In the end, the ONLY time I saw higher armor/dodge as a benefit was against Emma because smart gameplay does nothing to keep you safer.
As far as armor OR dodge, it really doesn't seem effective at my level to go with the much lower level dodge set instead of the much higher level stuff with better armor. I'd imagine that in the sewers, the Drainer's gear would be really good against the bosses there to help you stay alive, but it's hard to tell what is helping: The Drainer's higher than normal (for lvl 55) armor, or the drainer's higher than normal (for lvl 55) dodge.