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View Full Version : Can you make it a bit harder to level?



doot
04-17-2010, 02:49 AM
Honestly, you raise the level cap, and that same night, I'm seeing 28-30s running around towne talking about starting their uberguild. Since we're not paying a monthly fee, I don't see the harm in making it harder to gain XP.

And just so I don't sound like a complainer, I've got a 25 mage and a 27 archer. Didn't anyone play Ultima Online? This reminds me of early UO, and back then, a 7X GM actually meant something. Anyone can hit level 30 in this game with a little effort.

setec
04-17-2010, 02:51 AM
I'm not saying make this super easy, but I don't need a WoW experience where it takes forever (unless you avoid work, life, etc) to level to 80. I like going through the content quickly, leveling up my 3 chars, and then going back to get better loot.

doot
04-17-2010, 03:07 AM
I'm not saying make this super easy, but I don't need a WoW experience where it takes forever (unless you avoid work, life, etc) to level to 80. I like going through the content quickly, leveling up my 3 chars, and then going back to get better loot.

Oh no, not comparing it to WOW (or DAOC, if anyone played that), but like I said, if they raise the level cap 5 levels, and people are hitting it within a few hours, then that cap increase is almost arbitrary. Personally, I'm not killing things much quicker (or surviving) 5 levels later, so why not enjoy looting and leveling simultaneously? You can "get better loot" whether you're 25 or 30.

_ck
04-17-2010, 06:12 AM
Some people are playing this in a way it wasn't really intended though. This game was/is supposed to be more of a pick it up, play a few levels, leave it at that, come back tomorrow kind of game. People are playing this non-stop for hours and hours (certainly to level up by 5, it DOES take time). I don't think it should take longer to level up, it's just that some are playing this like crazy and just burning straight through any new level pack. If Spacetime changed it and it took twice as long to level up, these guys might still play all the way through a new map non-stop, it's just in their nature it seems. ;)

Dizko
04-17-2010, 07:09 AM
Some people are playing this in a way it wasn't really intended though. This game was/is supposed to be more of a pick it up, play a few levels, leave it at that, come back tomorrow kind of game. People are playing this non-stop for hours and hours (certainly to level up by 5, it DOES take time). I don't think it should take longer to level up, it's just that some are playing this like crazy and just burning straight through any new level pack. If Spacetime changed it and it took twice as long to level up, these guys might still play all the way through a new map non-stop, it's just in their nature it seems. ;)

This is true. Our clan had at least 12 people in chat ALL DAY. And many of them were the same 12.

These types of games attract the hardcore and they will always be ahead.

setec
04-17-2010, 07:16 AM
I like the way it is now. I can play it for hours at a time or I can put it down for days. It's even great for killing time if you only have 5 minutes. And whether you play for hours or minutes, it's fun. I don't want to loose the fun factor.

Shebee
04-17-2010, 07:57 AM
I haven't leveled to high levels yet.
But I certainly don't want a Knight Online like leveling experience in a handheld device I maybe play max 1h a day or so.

KronicDecay
04-17-2010, 08:46 AM
Just because a select handful of people who are playing 24 hours a day and max leveling is no reason to make leveling harder.. This would just reward them for already beating the curve and hurt everyone else whose not already level 30

Shinrai
04-17-2010, 11:17 AM
I would have to agree with Kronic.
I think there are better ways to separate the hardcore and the causal then just make harder to find xp.

One separation that is arguably doing this is paid content, people that wants to pick up this game to have a good time doesn't need to buy anything if they do not wish. The people that wants more out of this game will support the devs and pay for the extra maps.

That said, the game isn't terribly all that interesting. In no disrespect to the devs, if you stand back and look at this and compare this to any other successful mmo's on the PC. This is just another typical hack and slash, xp grinding MMO.
The only grab for me personally is that this is the a typical hack and slash, xp grinding MMO IN MY POCKET. Done right! (caplocks and bold o show how stocked I am!)

I would personally see some sorta challenging and intuitive game play mechanics.

I have a few ideas but I dont want to say anything til I see "end game".

Shebee
04-17-2010, 11:52 AM
I would personally see some sorta challenging and intuitive game play mechanics.
I completely agree with that!

doot
04-17-2010, 11:57 AM
This is why I was selective with my wording. "A bit harder" does not equate to "twice as long" or hours and hours". There is some tweaking that should be made. It's slower to level initially, but once you're around 10-15 and hunting in appropriate dungeons, it doesn't take 24 hour a day play to start leveling.

The fun factor is specific to everyone. The players trying to hit the new cap immediately will always be the hardcore players, and as it stands, it's too easy. The casual pick-up-and-play players shouldn't be concerned with max level (I have plenty of friends in this category) and will have their fun hunting at low-mid levels with like-minded players.

Shebee
04-17-2010, 12:09 PM
This is why I was selective with my wording. "A bit harder" does not equate to "twice as long" or hours and hours". There is some tweaking that should be made. It's slower to level initially, but once you're around 10-15 and hunting in appropriate dungeons, it doesn't take 24 hour a day play to start leveling.

The fun factor is specific to everyone. The players trying to hit the new cap immediately will always be the hardcore players, and as it stands, it's too easy. The casual pick-up-and-play players shouldn't be concerned with max level (I have plenty of friends in this category) and will have their fun hunting at low-mid levels with like-minded players.
Well hardcore doesn't always mean that your a powerleveler, or in this case powergrinder :P
I used to play wow wow too much, and when the expansion from 70-80 came, I didn't powerlevel at all, I thought it was boring and when i finally reached 80 I started playing too much again.
I just don't like stuff that is repetitive.

Deathshock
04-17-2010, 01:37 PM
Personally I agree with doot that you should make it harder to level. Way to many people reach max level with no effort. It would also work if you raised the level cap a lot more (like 10 to 15 levels) per expansion.

KronicDecay
04-17-2010, 01:53 PM
How can making it harder to level benefit anyone? This brings me back to my original point above, you'd be hurting the people who are not already at level 30. Also the casual players who don't play often will have to play even longer to level up. Not a good idea IMO

edit : also I've been playing the game in my freetime in and off work since release and I'm only level 24, so how can you say it's too easy to level? Only for those who are playing 8+ hours a day

Shinrai
04-17-2010, 02:07 PM
Slowing lv progression won't do anything for this game.
The problem is that this game that doesn't have much to go by.

New maps and lvs are the only way atm they can drag out the longevity of the game. In essence, given a set amount of time, anyone: soft, mid?, hard-core players will eventually react a lv cap; be it lv 30 or lv 100. Prolonging that progression only makes it an annoyance.

In terms of game mechanics, I think lving is a bit out of date. Sure you need a meter stick to give measure to players a sense of progression but IMO, thats the only thing it is good for. "I am this lv now, I am skilled enough to go do something with these lvs" is what it is met to be used for. (think of roller coaster rides, "you have to be this tall to ride this ride")

A good design would giving the player something to do with these lvs and abilities.

This game is new. give it time. I'm willing to give this a benefit of a doubt. I bought these map packs, I'd enjoyed it. I just hope the next 1.99 I spend isn't another lv cap increase and more "same old" mobs and instances I've been playing for 30 lvs.

doot
04-18-2010, 02:51 AM
How can making it harder to level benefit anyone? This brings me back to my original point above, you'd be hurting the people who are not already at level 30. Also the casual players who don't play often will have to play even longer to level up. Not a good idea IMO

edit : also I've been playing the game in my freetime in and off work since release and I'm only level 24, so how can you say it's too easy to level? Only for those who are playing 8+ hours a day

And how is it hurting people to extend the value of a game for players with something to reach for? This game is a grindfest. Let's be realistic. Casual players don't care about hitting the level cap. If they did, they wouldn't be casual players.

Your free time is relative. How long did it take you to hit 24?


Slowing lv progression won't do anything for this game.
The problem is that this game that doesn't have much to go by.

New maps and lvs are the only way atm they can drag out the longevity of the game. In essence, given a set amount of time, anyone: soft, mid?, hard-core players will eventually react a lv cap; be it lv 30 or lv 100. Prolonging that progression only makes it an annoyance.

In terms of game mechanics, I think lving is a bit out of date. Sure you need a meter stick to give measure to players a sense of progression but IMO, thats the only thing it is good for. "I am this lv now, I am skilled enough to go do something with these lvs" is what it is met to be used for. (think of roller coaster rides, "you have to be this tall to ride this ride")

A good design would giving the player something to do with these lvs and abilities.

This game is new. give it time. I'm willing to give this a benefit of a doubt. I bought these map packs, I'd enjoyed it. I just hope the next 1.99 I spend isn't another lv cap increase and more "same old" mobs and instances I've been playing for 30 lvs.

You're sure that slowing level progression won't do anything for this game. You're solely speaking for yourself, you realize?

At the moment, yes, slowing level progression will absolutely extend the longevity of the game. At this stage in the game's lifespan, it's one of the few things you can do to extend the longevity of the game. Do you expect the devs to implement new maps daily? Weekly? Grinding is an annoyance to you, but not to the millions of people that have purchased RPGs over the years. It's an absolute joy to others, and if you don't believe that, you are naive.

Your idea about doing away with leveling has nothing to do with my post and is a very strange idea. New levels are obviously a treat for everyone, and the devs have been knocking them out, in my opinion.

This game is new. Give it time.

Splurd
04-18-2010, 03:45 AM
Shinrai is not wrong about levels being out of date. Using the ever cliche example of WoW, WoW had a rather small level cap for a mmorpg, but yet it was insanely popular. This was due to the content they had outside of grinding for exp.

But frankly, this is not WoW. This is a iPhone game, its not meant for hardcore gaming, and if I have to spend 1 hour playing to see my exp bar move by a pixel, it is stupid. I think the leveling rate is fine as it is. Saying that slowing leveling to stretch out the playability, is a rather naive method of thinking. Should look to other areas to improve playability, rather then make it more tedious.

Disastrix
04-18-2010, 02:12 PM
I do agree it takes a while, but tbh i wouldnt mind it taking twice as long because you dont need to play a bunch. If you play wisely. My melee dps archer kills mobs really quickly and i solo most dungeons making it ez for me to level rather quickly, plus since i solo i get all the gear. Ill leave it at that.

doot
04-19-2010, 04:35 AM
Shinrai is not wrong about levels being out of date. Using the ever cliche example of WoW, WoW had a rather small level cap for a mmorpg, but yet it was insanely popular. This was due to the content they had outside of grinding for exp.

But frankly, this is not WoW. This is a iPhone game, its not meant for hardcore gaming, and if I have to spend 1 hour playing to see my exp bar move by a pixel, it is stupid. I think the leveling rate is fine as it is. Saying that slowing leveling to stretch out the playability, is a rather naive method of thinking. Should look to other areas to improve playability, rather then make it more tedious.



You are correct. This is not WOW. It will never be WOW, so stop using it as a point of comparison. That is stupid.

To say that an iPhone game cannot be meant for hardcore gaming is rather naive. Why can't hardcore gaming exist on a device that is more capable than a DS with publishers that develop hardcore games for other platforms?

Does it really take you an hour to move a pixel? No, really? PM me for tips on basic gameplay.

Nothing in your post makes sense.

Splurd
04-19-2010, 05:11 AM
You are correct. This is not WOW. It will never be WOW, so stop using it as a point of comparison. That is stupid.

To say that an iPhone game cannot be meant for hardcore gaming is rather naive. Why can't hardcore gaming exist on a device that is more capable than a DS with publishers that develop hardcore games for other platforms?

Does it really take you an hour to move a pixel? No, really? PM me for tips on basic gameplay.

Nothing in your post makes sense.


Well arnt you a bundle of joy.

Yes, I said this is not WoW. But that does not mean we cannot compare it. Give me a reason why we cant compare two mmorpgs together? Hmmm? :confused:

Like I said. WoW was popular despite not being a exp grindfest. It is an example how a game can be fun without the focus on grinding for exp and levels. My point is, a game can still be fun even if its not about grinding for levels. If this example is too complex for your closed mindset to handle, I cannot help you.

As to why do I say the iPhone is not meant for hardcore gaming.

Because its an iPhone. :cool:

The battery life cannot last a day. Playing this game for an hour or two will sap it down to red. And then what, you have a near flat phone for the rest of the day.

And no, read carefully. I said if it gets to a point where I have to spend an hour to get a pixel's worth of exp, the game has reached a level of stupidity. We're not there yet. And I hope we never will.

And lighten up, will you. Whats up with the bee in your bonnet.

Shinrai
04-19-2010, 10:05 AM
And how is it hurting people to extend the value of a game for players with something to reach for? This game is a grindfest. Let's be realistic. Casual players don't care about hitting the level cap. If they did, they wouldn't be casual players.

Your free time is relative. How long did it take you to hit 24?

What or who gave you the power to dictate whether or not a casual player wants to hit lv cap? I play 1/2 hours a day during lunch (slack off at work to post on forums) and I want to react lv cap, does that mean I'm a hardcore player? Moreover, how do you define a "casual player"? Does posting on this forum make me hardcore because I care to make my opinions heard?

And yes, some of us are being sensible and realistic. This game is a grindfest. Some of us don't particular care for this type of gameplay. IMO, its lazy design. It's been tried and done to death. Just because something works doesn't mean it is "fun". ("fun is relative to the user experience, I get that)

Take trasportation for example: since the dawn of time, we've been able to move about just fine on our own two legs. Why then did we find the need to invent the wheel? It was because we needed to get around using other methods, we relied on our wits to enriched a very mundane action. Innovation thru the use of intelligence was what seperated us from the animals.

"Design" in itself borrows from this very same principal. You can't re-invent the wheel, but nothing is stopping you from improving upon it.


You're sure that slowing level progression won't do anything for this game. You're solely speaking for yourself, you realize?

You're sure that making level progression slower will do anything for this game. You're solely speaking for yourself, you realize?

What was your point again? lol



At the moment, yes, slowing level progression will absolutely extend the longevity of the game. At this stage in the game's lifespan, it's one of the few things you can do to extend the longevity of the game. Do you expect the devs to implement new maps daily? Weekly? Grinding is an annoyance to you, but not to the millions of people that have purchased RPGs over the years. It's an absolute joy to others, and if you don't believe that, you are naive.

Your idea about doing away with leveling has nothing to do with my post and is a very strange idea. New levels are obviously a treat for everyone, and the devs have been knocking them out, in my opinion.

This game is new. Give it time.

I think it was back in 97' when I first got my hands on a Kr Beta MMO called Lineage. For weeks, I sat infront of my CRT monitor for a unhealthy period of time starring at the rationation emitting device, grinding mobs to react an unattanable lv cap. (because there was none) It was a joy...a decade ago.

And please pardon my inability to explain anything, I thought I said that leveling is still required because it gives the player some sort of progression. I didnt say to do away with it, I just think it's irrelevant. Personally, I am not smart enough to find or design a better system to replace it.

And also, based on your suggestion and feedback, I came up with a new concept for Monopoly:

Don't give anyone any money at the start of the game.
Roll "pass go" for a few hours til someone is rich enough to buy a property.
When you land on someone's property, u only pay 10% of the cost of the land value.
Rinse. Repeat. Lather (if needed)

Good times.

In your words, grinding in itself is a tried and true mechanic that "millions of people" have previously enjoyed. I believe it. Not a tedious nor mundane thing to do. My previous comments were totally naive.


Do you expect the devs to implement new maps daily? Weekly?
No, I don't want new maps everyday/week. I want to know that the next map pack I buy is thought out. I want my next map pack to implement more then a re-skinned dungeon with the same types of enemies. I want more then just another lv cap increase or a better weapon. I want something different, not something I've done already. I expect that the boss at the end of the stage looks and play different.

Did I make myself crystal clear?

123seeyah
04-19-2010, 07:12 PM
I'm good at the current progression of leveling. After work, spend an hour or two and level up by 3 levels and im good with that. Looking for a party at the expansion maps is hard on its own. So i dont think making it hard to level will be beneficial unless you want to jack your phone up and play it non-stop. If that's the case then have yourself an MMORPG that's meant to be played on a PC if you'll be spending this tad amount of time

KronicDecay
04-19-2010, 07:25 PM
Still at this huh? I still agree with the current progression of levels and will fight to the bitter end that you will be screwing everyone over by doing this. It took me two weeks of "casual play" to hit level 30 and I'm very proud of it. Making level progression harder is a very stupid idea IMO

Banned
04-19-2010, 08:16 PM
And the fact that the level cap is still only level 30 so it should be getting alot harder. Not that hard to understand.

maxvegas
04-19-2010, 08:35 PM
Still at this huh? I still agree with the current progression of levels and will fight to the bitter end that you will be screwing everyone over by doing this. It took me two weeks of "casual play" to hit level 30 and I'm very proud of it. Making level progression harder is a very stupid idea IMO

ftw to what he says :)

Splurd
04-19-2010, 09:00 PM
And the fact that the level cap is still only level 30 so it should be getting alot harder. Not that hard to understand.

They obviously plan to raise it. If you look in the itunes store for archers, I see a heavy crossbow for lvl 30 - 50's.

Deathshock
04-19-2010, 09:02 PM
It seems to me that it took about the same time to level from 25-30 as it did from 20-25, which is 4-5 hours. I dunno, I think that the level cap raise should take a little longer than that...

Banned
04-19-2010, 09:15 PM
They obviously plan to raise it. If you look in the itunes store for archers, I see a heavy crossbow for lvl 30 - 50's.

I know. Like I said, the level cap is still only at level 30 so it will be getting alot harder. Higher level cap= harder enemies.

doot
04-19-2010, 11:12 PM
Well arnt you a bundle of joy.

And aren't you quite the speller. See how easy this is? Stay on topic.




Yes, I said this is not WoW. But that does not mean we cannot compare it. Give me a reason why we cant compare two mmorpgs together? Hmmm? :confused:

Like I said. WoW was popular despite not being a exp grindfest. It is an example how a game can be fun without the focus on grinding for exp and levels. My point is, a game can still be fun even if its not about grinding for levels. If this example is too complex for your closed mindset to handle, I cannot help you.

And this is why I took that tone with you. That and the naive comment you made.

We can compare PL to Tetris, and it would make just as much sense. For example, "Tetris can be fun if it is not about grinding for levels".

It's an rpg. Grinding happens. At this stage in the game's lifespan, it's a huge part of it. I'm sure you have a million fun suggestions on how to make this game better. Be patient, and maybe they will come.




As to why do I say the iPhone is not meant for hardcore gaming.

Because its an iPhone. :cool:

The battery life cannot last a day. Playing this game for an hour or two will sap it down to red. And then what, you have a near flat phone for the rest of the day.

And no, read carefully. I said if it gets to a point where I have to spend an hour to get a pixel's worth of exp, the game has reached a level of stupidity. We're not there yet. And I hope we never will.

And lighten up, will you. Whats up with the bee in your bonnet.


Nope, still not making any sense. I guess we all have our own idea of what hardcore gaming is. If yours is based solely on a device's battery life, then I don't know what to tell you. That's a very strange opinion to me.

Condescending and then asking the other party to lighten up always makes me laugh. Maybe if you make the font even bigger and use more smilies, I'll see the light.

doot
04-19-2010, 11:17 PM
Too much to read.

I had to go back and re-read the thread because I forgot who you were. Did you really just write me a book and throw some weird Monopoly reference in there?

I'll just say that I agree with you, because I don't want to read it all..

And I think we've hunted together. I find that funny.

Splurd
04-19-2010, 11:37 PM
My simple point is that grinding for exp is not the only way a game can be entertaining. I used WoW as an example of an MMORPG which has entertainment, even outside of gridning. Both PL and WoW are MMORPGs. Tetris is not a MMORPG. So what is the problem with comparing them? Yes, they are on different consoles so we cannot expect the same standards of a game, but are the core, both games follow the same style of gameplay. It makes sense. Comparing Tetris do not make sense, and neither do you.

The reason why I mention the iPhones battery life is because,
tell me how many hours do you think it will take to get from level 20-25?
And can the iPhone battery last through that gaming session? And still function as a phone for the rest of the day.
So this is why I say the iPhone is not meant for such strenuous gaming.

Now, other then saying "oh your opinion is naive or strange" is there anything constructive you can say about justifying an exp reduction?

And if I think I'm condescending, well I cannot really change that. I add the smiles in a attempt to lighten the post, but if you still take offence then so be it. I'm not going to be some internet carebear just so someone can go bashing on.

doot
04-20-2010, 01:01 AM
My simple point is that grinding for exp is not the only way a game can be entertaining. I used WoW as an example of an MMORPG which has entertainment, even outside of gridning. Both PL and WoW are MMORPGs. Tetris is not a MMORPG. So what is the problem with comparing them? Yes, they are on different consoles so we cannot expect the same standards of a game, but are the core, both games follow the same style of gameplay. It makes sense. Comparing Tetris do not make sense, and neither do you.

The reason why I mention the iPhones battery life is because,
tell me how many hours do you think it will take to get from level 20-25?
And can the iPhone battery last through that gaming session? And still function as a phone for the rest of the day.
So this is why I say the iPhone is not meant for such strenuous gaming.

Now, other then saying "oh your opinion is naive or strange" is there anything constructive you can say about justifying an exp reduction?

And if I think I'm condescending, well I cannot really change that. I add the smiles in a attempt to lighten the post, but if you still take offence then so be it. I'm not going to be some internet carebear just so someone can go bashing on.

Please try to be more of an internet carebear by adding more smilies because you're really hurting my feelings :( You are one tough mofo!

Hey, let's agree that neither of us make sense to each other since I'm not sure English is your first or second language, anyway. I'd rather you just add me (dootbird) so we can grind for hours together asap.

See you in game!

123seeyah
04-20-2010, 01:14 AM
good thing you settled your differences. let's just enjoy what the game is offering us. let's not waste time debating and let's just hunt for those motherf**ing rare loots!!!!! :D

Zithorio
04-20-2010, 01:27 AM
God it's finally over! That took me almost an hour reading! Anyways, for the original topic, I like the current level up speed. If it were slower, it would literally become a five hour grindfest that I would rather spend time doing stunts on a motorbike with rockets attached, even if it's a death sentence! (see what I did there? I'd rather be dead IMO!). So, harder leveling, bad idea for the current basis of how this game operates. The only reason I find it fun is because of the looting, broken down. Mmo's in general, all have the same flaw in essence, eventually the grindfest becomes too apparent, and the lack of diversity is too noticeable. That is when people say, "why in gods name did I spend money on this?" and quit. So, if anything, the leveling time should be shortened, but I like it how it is. Frankly, if only maplestory was this easy to level in, by grinding I mean...

Things I think would improve the experience are first off, quests... with loot.
Second, the dlc give you increments of +10-15 levels per campaign, instead of five. This way the fun stops less abruptly.
Third, a free loot and random loot toggle button. That way you get what you kill. I have never played an mmo where people invite me to a party and I reject because they don't have free loot toggled on.
Fourth, a few faster instances.
Finally, after buying dlc, the level limit shouldn't be there, really, I hate that IMO.