Why a Bow over Crossbow???

[Mahk]

As I'm levelling up my archer, I keep running into Dex Birds with Bows. So I ask, why are you using a bow instead of a crossbow? The response is almost always, "the best thing I've found so far." I'm sure that's what they think, but I've got to think they're looking at Damage not DPS?

What should we look for in a Dex Bird? I would have thought pure DPS, really that's all I've been working on. I guess I can understand that the higher Damage of a Bow would mean a greater crit. All things equal, if I'm crit'n with a X-bow and a Bow, isn't the speed of the crossbow going to win out in a 2-3 min long battle?

Do Bows have more abilities, boost Dex/Hit/Crit/M-s/H-s or stuff? Do you get more bonuses outta the bows? What gives? Do they have a longer range?

I even hand out excess Purple crossbows I've gathered, and seen only 1-2 toons actually switch to what I gave them. Can't believe there's that many leveling archers running around with pink bows.

And of course, I always check their stats -- that's why I ask 'em. (And I like to make sure my DPS is reputable.) I've found Dex Birds 3-5 levels higher than me with 10-15 less DPS. And I can't see that their hit/crit or anything is stellar enough to justify doing less damage.

Will check when I gets home, but I'm pretty sure I'm a Lvl 34 Pure Dex Build and doing about 87 DPS with a purple crossbow of finesse or something. With focus, my hit/crit jump up to over 200/80 I think. (That was my first "whoa" moment, when I saw an archer wiht some insane hit/crit scores, then figured out the Focus was in play! I'm right up there with 'em...)

Tough to compare as we level, but I'd be interested in hearing about DPS/Hit/Crit rates for uber-archers!

[FluffNStuff]

Bows over Xbows are mainly for PVP, when the higher damage offsets the lower speed / DPS. In PVE (main game) just go for the highest DPS you can find, unless you have a bow with good side stats, like regen or high crit / dodge.

[Royce]

If the DPS of a crossbow is only slightly higher than a bow, than the effective DPS of the bow (taking into account armor) is probably actually higher.

[Tavore]

I have used Horus alien blaster and scarab bow but I think the cross bow seemed more affective. I could be wrong though.

[FluffNStuff]

I have used Horus alien blaster and scarab bow but I think the cross bow seemed more affective. I could be wrong though.

Scarab bow higher damage AND DPS. Definitely the best, but not nearly as fun as a blaster. PEW PEW PEW!

[FluffNStuff]

If the DPS of a crossbow is only slightly higher than a bow, than the effective DPS of the bow (taking into account armor) is probably actually higher.

How does that work?
---SH*T you may be right, depending on how armor reduces, just did the math for really simple example.:
weapon1: 2 damage, .5 speed, 4dps
weapon2: 4 damage, 1 speed, 4dps
apply armor that reduces a hit by 1 damage:
weapon1: 1 damage, .5 speed, 2dps
weapon2: 3 damage, 1 speed, 3dps

That is if armor reduces damage by a specific amount. It it reduces by a fraction, say 25% then they are the same:
weapon1: 1.5 damage, .5 speed, 3dps
weapon2: 3 damage, 1 speed, 3dps

[Mahk]

Whoa, what Royce??? You're saying that the armorclass of the MOB reduces my DPS on him? Hmmm, ok, ok ... I guess I've seen that in action. (Initial reaction was that armor only affected my chance to hit a mob... but you're right, I do different amounts of damage to different mobs, the little numbers scrolling up off of the sucker as i'm plunkin' him...)

"effective DPS of the bow (taking into account armor) is probably actually higher"

I can not grok that.... I still don't see how that affects DPS? Armor would reduce the bow and crossbow equally, no?

Regardless, the bows I'm seeing now at Lvl 35 are no match for the crossbows -- like 10-14 DPS pts lower than crossbows. So, do we think armor is a percentage reduction (probably) or a hard number reduction? Doesn't matter really:

80 DPS - 10% = 72
70 DPS - 10% = 63

And I didn't think bows WERE faster? Dang it, should wait til i'm home wiht the iPad to pop off, but I'm thinking the crossbows do MORE DPS and are 0.1 faster?!?!!? They're slower? hmmm, double check that.

OH WAIT, are you saying because the crossbow IS faster, it's getting a bigger chunk of damage taken away over a minute of combat??? Hmmm! (OK, my mind now hurts....)

Regardless -- all the "elite" archers I'm seeing are crossbow, every archer I see with a bow within 2-3 levels of me (plus or esp minus) I'm easily 10-14 dps higher. Just last night I ran across a level 36 x-archer at 90 DPS! First I'd seen in awhile that was slightly higher than me!

[Raxie]

dps isn't everything. some people choose weapons because they add special stats like 4hs or something. also, 10 dps isn't that much of a difference. when the difference gets to like 20, maybe.

[Royce]

"effective DPS of the bow (taking into account armor) is probably actually higher"

I can not grok that.... I still don't see how that affects DPS? Armor would reduce the bow and crossbow equally, no?

Regardless, the bows I'm seeing now at Lvl 35 are no match for the crossbows -- like 10-14 DPS pts lower than crossbows. So, do we think armor is a percentage reduction (probably) or a hard number reduction? Doesn't matter really:

80 DPS - 10% = 72
70 DPS - 10% = 63

And I didn't think bows WERE faster? Dang it, should wait til i'm home wiht the iPad to pop off, but I'm thinking the crossbows do MORE DPS and are 0.1 faster?!?!!? They're slower? hmmm, double check that.

OH WAIT, are you saying because the crossbow IS faster, it's getting a bigger chunk of damage taken away over a minute of combat??? Hmmm! (OK, my mind now hurts....)

I think you sort of get it. Imagine this oversimplified example. Crossbow does 50 dmg 2 times per second for 100 DPS. Bow does 90 damage 1 time per second for 90 DPS. Now let's say your opponent's armor reduces damage by 15. Crossbow is actually doing (50-15) 35 dmg 2 times per second for an effective DPS of 70, while the bow does (90-15) 75 dmg 1 time per second for an effective DPS of 75 ;)
This gets much more complicated when you factor in buffs, debuffs, and crit, but that's the basic idea.
Anyway, they kind of screwed up with level 30 and 35 bows. The battle/heavy crossbows completely overpower level 30 bows, and the level 35 Impish bows are probably no match for the bayou/crossbone bows, but below level 30 and above 35, bows are a viable option.

[jonboy]

Damn Royce, your good.

[Snakespeare]

But Royce, your example, it needs two actual weapons of the same level, because I don't see crossbow doing 50 damage 2 twice versus bow doing 90 once per second. What two items are you comparing?

And the whole thing becomes moot when you debuff the opponent.

Plus, the auto-crossbow, when you buff up, is doing crits. I go from about 14% crit to 64%, which is about 1 in three chance. So, over three seconds, 6 shots, you get 4 crits, compared to the bow who only gives you 2 crits. And therein lies the difference.

[Royce]

But Royce, your example, it needs two actual weapons of the same level, because I don't see crossbow doing 50 damage 2 twice versus bow doing 90 once per second. What two items are you comparing?
I was not comparing any two actual items. That's why I called it an oversimplified example. I was simply trying to show mathematically how the DPS of a low damage, high speed weapon is reduced more by opponent armor than the DPS of a high damage, low speed weapon is. And then there is crit and buffs/debuffs of it...


And the whole thing becomes moot when you debuff the opponent.
It changes the equation, but it doesn't make it moot unless you debuff your opponent to zero armor. However, you are correct that an armor debuff favors the high speed weapon more than the low speed one. But the buff/debuff component of this argument is much more complicated than even that. A buff to your damage (or strengh or anything affecting damage) will favor the high speed weapon more, while any debuff to your damage or anything affecting it will favor the low speed weapon.


Plus, the auto-crossbow, when you buff up, is doing crits. I go from about 14% crit to 64%, which is about 1 in three chance. So, over three seconds, 6 shots, you get 4 crits, compared to the bow who only gives you 2 crits. And therein lies the difference.
There are a lot of different arguments I've heard concerning DPS and crits. Basically bigger damage weapons do bigger crits. However, there is currently a bug where all crits ignore armor, so I think definitely crits favor the high speed weapon currently. However, when that is fixed, it should be a wash, a bunch of little crits vs. a few large crits should equal out in the end. But yes, effective DPS is very complicated to consider. Basically, it seems that high speed low damage weapons (typical crossbow) are better for low armor opponents like common PvE mobs, while low speed, high damage weapons (typical bow) are better against high armor opponents like PvE bosses or PvP opponents.

[FluffNStuff]

I think you sort of get it. Imagine this oversimplified example. Crossbow does 50 dmg 2 times per second for 100 DPS. Bow does 90 damage 1 time per second for 90 DPS. Now let's say your opponent's armor reduces damage by 15. Crossbow is actually doing (50-15) 35 dmg 2 times per second for an effective DPS of 70, while the bow does (90-15) 75 dmg 1 time per second for an effective DPS of 75 ;)
This gets much more complicated when you factor in buffs, debuffs, and crit, but that's the basic idea.
Anyway, they kind of screwed up with level 30 and 35 bows. The battle/heavy crossbows completely overpower level 30 bows, and the level 35 Impish bows are probably no match for the bayou/crossbone bows, but below level 30 and above 35, bows are a viable option.

In this you are stating that armor reduces damage by a set value, and not a percentage of damage. If the reduction was 15% instead of 15 damage, then higher speed would not be affected more by the armor then the lower speed. I guess I am asking how sure you are the armor reduction is fixed and not a percentage?

[Royce]

I guess I am asking how sure you are the armor reduction is fixed and not a percentage?

I'm not ;) But from my testing it seems to be the case. For instance a low enough damage attack can do 0 damage which would not happen if it were a percentage reduction. Also, it is what most of the people I have discussed this with believe to be the case (not that I expect you to put much weight in that ;) ). Anyway I would be glad to be corrected if I am wrong :)

[FluffNStuff]

I'm not ;) But from my testing it seems to be the case. For instance a low enough damage attack can do 0 damage which would not happen if it were a percentage reduction. Also, it is what most of the people I have discussed this with believe to be the case (not that I expect you to put much weight in that ;) ). Anyway I would be glad to be corrected if I am wrong :)

Gotta look into doing some testing, but need to find the right mobs. They need to be high enough to have armor, but low enough to not debuff (which is definitely a fixed amount, and ~could~ account for the 0 damage). Guess debuffs could be checked by walking into a mob and opening your avatar screen.

[Mahk]

Are you sitting down? Here's two level 35 pinks (admitted, you said Lvl 35 is messed up):

Jewel Thief's Impish Bow
48-58 Damage, 1.2 Speed, 7 Dex, 2H/S, 2 Armor

Player's Damage: 83-93; DPS 74; Armor 57

Jewel Thief's Crossbone Bow
44-46 Damage, 0.9 Speed, 7 Dex, 2 H/S

Player's Damage 79-81; DPS 89; Armor 55


In 30 Seconds of Combat, the Crossbow will fire off 33 shots, the bow 25 shots.

With my Dex-Birds stats, Crossbow will do 2,633-2,700 pts; The Bow 2,075-2325 pts in 30 seconds -- a roughly 14% advantage for the crossbow.

By pure DPS calculations over 30 seconds: 2,670 Xbow / 2,220 Bow. A 17% difference, huh.... why?

If MOB's armor is reducing the damage by 25%, those eight extra shots DON'T cause a greater decrease in reduction for the xbow over the bow; over 30 seconds, it's still just a total 25% reduction.... (English major, don't hate my inane insights, but I had to see a spreadsheet confirm this to grok it!). But I think we covered that, a pure POINT reduction would hurt faster weapons; percentage reduction, not so.

So what about Crits?

The Crossbow gives you 33 chances to crit over 30 seconds, the bow 25. Let's say you crit 33% of the time (X-bow crits 11 times, Bow crits 8 times). Those 3 extra crits by the crossbow MAINTAIN the edge of the crossbow over the bow, it just doesn't change, still 14% more damage!

What the heck am I doing wrong? I just don't see that 2 extra armor makes up for 14% LESS damage! And yes, maybe that's the messed up nature of Lvl 35 Pinks.

[Elffy]

Impish bows are also complete crap should compare with pharaoh bows

[Mahk]

Well, that's certainly what I'm getting after, why are these bows crap?
The point is these two 35s above are equitable in all regards, 'cept Damage/DPS. Do two highly similar Lvl 40s or 45s still hold to this same "bump to armor, but less damage" formula?

[Snakespeare]

I just went by experience. The crossbow takes them down faster, in PvE. I grok you Mahk (and share water, too!)

[Mahk]

In 30 Seconds of Combat, the Crossbow will fire off 33 shots, the bow 25 shots.

With my Dex-Birds stats, Crossbow will do 2,633-2,700 pts; The Bow 2,075-2325 pts in 30 seconds -- a roughly 14% advantage for the crossbow.

OK, so if Armor reduction is a number and not a percent -- say it takes 20 pts off each hit. 20 pts x 33 shots = 660; 20 x 25 = 500 -- so sure, the crossbow got crunched more, so in 30 seconds your 14% advantage has dropped to an 11% advantage -- but it stays right there 90 seconds beyond that, still just 11% diff, it doesn't creep up.

[Raxie]

Damn Royce, your good.
that's what she said. sorry, just had to do it.