Some sort of stat conversion or balance?

[Kingslaya]

Ive just been skimming through the fourms and ive read a couple times about a stat balance? Its supposed to like make hybrids less powerful i belive. If you have any more info please tell

[Jstizar]

Ive just been skimming through the fourms and ive read a couple times about a stat balance? Its supposed to like make hybrids less powerful i belive. If you have any more info please tell

Stat Driven Skill Conversion, (even though there are many threads about it on the forum I will talk a little about it), does no make Hybirds any weaker. Each classes skill strength basically depends on how many points they have in their main attribute. Meaning, that pures will be getting stronger which in turn will make it harder for hybrids but hybrids are not directly getting any weaker.

[Kingslaya]

oh ok thanks for the quick reply

[Snakespeare]

I'm opposed to it, but don't waste time arguing with me. People already have and I seem to be the only one who thinks the way I do. And I am a noob to MMORPGs so I don't know what I'm talking about.

that said...

For one thing, it is not about character balance. It's possibly about PvP competitive balance, which is way different. Character balance would be to develop one's main stat as needed for items and to split the rest between the other stats. Problem is, from all I have been able to find, the other stats are not useful enough to encourage players to develop them.

Let's take Enchantress. She starts with 7 Int and like 1 Str and 2 Dex. Well, some people leave those non-main stats at 1 and 2 and only put their 5 points per level into Int. Others put just enough into Dex to increase their hit %, or enough into Str to improve their Health pool and Helth regen, and just put everything else into the main stat. This is what people are calling pures. And they are calling a hybrid someone who develops their non-main stats as if they were their main stats, making it so that they can use weapons of other races, hence the bowchantress and the paladin.

Apparently, in PvP, the hybrids have advantages. I don't play it, but I can guess why. Bears can stun and elves can't. To compensate, elves have good firepower in their weapons (but they are slow). But if you're stunned, it doesn't matter how slowly they shoot you, does it? So, my Ursan Mage pretty much is tearing through Lost from level I through V without dying even once, even killing Lil' Bill solo and the King of Frost solo after everyone else is killed because he can stun and blast. And he's only level 26.

So, it's great for PvE, but would you want to PvP against someone who can do that? That's the imbalance.

I don't know how it works for Paladin but I can also guess. She can heal herself almost back to full hp instantaneously. All the work you did to whittle away her HP is for naught. It's got to be terribly frustrating. Especially when, if you push that button, you get maybe 1/4th of your HP restored. And she's using Warrior weapons. It's got to seem unfair.

So, somehow, making the skill depend on your main stat is going to fix this. Theoretically, if you make the bear's stun based on his Str, then I won't be able to stun you as long with my Ursan mage because my Str is equal to my level, while a Warrior has Str about 5 times as four times as high as mine. And a paladin would not be able to heal hersel as quickly. That's what would happen.

So I don't believe it when they say it will not weaken the hybrids. It clearly will.

The reason I dislike it is because I want each skill to be based on a stat, yes, but not all on the main stat. When a bird restores his mana (I don't use it on my bird so I forget the name), for instance, I think that should be Int based, but the Blast Shot should be Dex based.

This would encourage people to develop their secondary stats.

The idea as it stands just sounds to me like it will make the game even more out of balance, forcing people to create the specialist based on their race and not to make individualized characters.

Argue if you want, but don't waste too much time on it, because I don't believe anyone thinks my version is correct. Except maybe one guy in England who actually wants an even more complex system of every skill available to every character, which is way more whack than me, LOL!!!

[bmc85uk]

Argue if you want, but don't waste too much time on it, because I don't believe anyone thinks my version is correct. Except maybe one guy in England who actually wants an even more complex system of every skill available to every character, which is way more whack than me, LOL!!!

Is that referring to me?

I agree with you to some degree, take a warrior for example, would you really want his 'Evasion' skill to be boosted by high STR? No. But the INT Enchantress clearly needs some love; a reason to boost INT, and that would naturally be more powerful spells, you wouldnt want a Mage/Fighter hybrid to have spells as powerful as a pure Mage, but at the same time, a STR Warrior shouldn't necessarily have more powerful attacks than a DEX Warrior, if you consider that a DEX Warrior is somewhat akin to a DPS Tank.

So the solution would be skill trees, the skills are far too wishy-washy as they are, with all three classes having pretty much the same abilities, armour debuff, knockback attack etc, it just doesn't make sense for all of those abilities to get stronger from going pure. The reason classes can currently adapt to hybridisation is down to all sharing such a broad array of skills, they're all an amalgamation of a variety of traditional classes.

Alternatively, something I'd already suggested was each skill being driven by a certain stat, yeah it's complex, but at least it's more flexible than everything being affected by your leading attribute.

[Snakespeare]

Is that referring to me?

...

Alternatively, something I'd already suggested was each skill being driven by a certain stat, yeah it's complex, but at least it's more flexible than everything being affected by your leading attribute.

But of course...

Yes, this is what I like, too. Evasion based on Dex no matter who uses it. Wall of Thorns based on Int. Stuff like that. In which case, I am totally for it!

[Futumsh]

It actually has little to do with anything that's been mentioned - it has to do primarily with scaling of skills relative to weapon damage as you level.

[bmc85uk]

So, skills scale like weapon damage, feeding from the primary stats (mostly affected by DEX currently), or skills directly correlate to weapon damage, relating to the weapon you currently have equipped?

Either way, I don't really understand how this is going to help balance things out. Feel free to clarify.

[Futumsh]

Example: you're level 10, you put 5 points in a skill, it does 50 damage. You level up to 45. That skill still does 50 damage, but now your weapon does 5x as much damage, making effective skill use less and less significant as you level.

[Royce]

So it has nothing to do with connecting skill strength to attribute points? If so what makes it "stat-driven" skills? Sounds like this will be not at all what people were expecting (something to help pures compete with hybrids). It sounds like something that is needed, but honestly my pure Int mage will be very disappointed at this news, crushed really...

[bmc85uk]

So it's less balance based, more to do with making your skills scale with your level/stats like weapon damage does?

In which case, a health/mana system revamp is needed more than ever if skill damage is set to increase accross the board.

[Jstizar]

It actually has little to do with anything that's been mentioned - it has to do primarily with scaling of skills relative to weapon damage as you level.

We only know the little bit you tell us, and it seems to have been very misleading.

[Violentsaint]

hurry up and release stat driven skill conversion please!

oh and awesome job with 1.3, only downpoint is the playdoh artwork of all the weapons :)

[tjornan]

I don't know how it works for Paladin but I can also guess. She can heal herself almost back to full hp instantaneously. All the work you did to whittle away her HP is for naught. It's got to be terribly frustrating. Especially when, if you push that button, you get maybe 1/4th of your HP restored. And she's using Warrior weapons. It's got to seem unfair.


Not really. I was facing thelone, and a combo with the vine thingy and scream + the damage from the actual weapon (wand)+blast shot and all the other skills killed me pretty fast. ive faced a bear and bird, and all they have to do is use a stunning spell, and when the pally heals to undo the confusion, they waste their heal. so then they spammed with there other skills. im definitely not a pvp pally tho. i dont know how this applies to them

[Snakespeare]

So is it a misnomer? Should it be called level based skill scaling? So, right now the a skill does 50 hp whether you are 10th or 45th level, while the weapons get better with level, but when the change comes, this same skill might do 50 at 45th, but less at 10th, or vice-versa?

[bmc85uk]

I'm pretty sure weapon damage is only relative to base stats, if you re-spec'ed a 45, with no points allocated they're as weak as a level 1, can anyone confirm this?

[Royce]

I'm pretty sure weapon damage is only relative to base stats, if you re-spec'ed a 45, with no points allocated they're as weak as a level 1, can anyone confirm this?

I believe you are correct. However, weapon damage does increase with level, sort of, simply because all three primary attributes increase base damage and nobody levels without putting points in something.
Anyway, I gotta say, I feel pretty dang bamboozled concerning this whole "stat-driven" skills thing, that everyone has been anxiously anticipating and as it turns out is nothing but level-scaled skills. People have been talking about it, and based on the limited input from the devs, believed it meant a certain thing. The devs read the forums. They know what everyone was expecting, and it kinda sucks they waited until now to tell everyone the big change they've been waiting for is not to be...

[bmc85uk]

It's still technically stat driven, as weapon damage is stat driven, enforced by level increase. What I don't understand is why STR doesn't increase the damage on STR weapons more and the same for INT, surely that helps to make it more worth while?

If it's relative to how stats affect weapon damage, then DEX would still own. Unless it's done by stat per class or stat per skill basis.

[Snakespeare]

I believe you are correct. However, weapon damage does increase with level, sort of, simply because all three primary attributes increase base damage and nobody levels without putting points in something.
Anyway, I gotta say, I feel pretty dang bamboozled concerning this whole "stat-driven" skills thing, that everyone has been anxiously anticipating and as it turns out is nothing but level-scaled skills. People have been talking about it, and based on the limited input from the devs, believed it meant a certain thing. The devs read the forums. They know what everyone was expecting, and it kinda sucks they waited until now to tell everyone the big change they've been waiting for is not to be...

You know, I never understood all the hoopla about it, anyway. People seemed to think that some sort of magical balance restoration was going to happen just because of a phrase that was very unclear. That's like where you get bleary-eyed when someone says fancy but meaningless words and then think all your problems will go away if you just do something that doesn't make sense because you want whatever you think the other said... but they never said what you thought they said, you only wanted to believe it so bad you changed the meaning of what they were saying... and they only maybe were talking possibilities and thinking about something complete opposite of what you said. For instance, the word "balance", in game terms, means a different thing to each person who says it. And the word "pure", also, has so many different interpretations that we can hardly understand each other. So people say, "stat-based skill conversion will bring balance and make the pures equal to the hybrids" but these words end up meaning different things to different people.

So, no. There is no bamboozling. It is just a failure to communicate.

And, as I said, I don't ever believe that huge changes necessarily fix things. They almost always cause regression errors. It is better to remain incredulous, in my opinion. Better to take a "we'll see" stance. Getting your hopes up about things you don't really understand is just setting yourself up for disappointment.

[Royce]

You know, I never understood all the hoopla about it, anyway. People seemed to think that some sort of magical balance restoration was going to happen just because of a phrase that was very unclear. That's like where you get bleary-eyed when someone says fancy but meaningless words and then think all your problems will go away if you just do something that doesn't make sense because you want whatever you think the other said... but they never said what you thought they said, you only wanted to believe it so bad you changed the meaning of what they were saying... and they only maybe were talking possibilities and thinking about something complete opposite of what you said. For instance, the word "balance", in game terms, means a different thing to each person who says it. And the word "pure", also, has so many different interpretations that we can hardly understand each other. So people say, "stat-based skill conversion will bring balance and make the pures equal to the hybrids" but these words end up meaning different things to different people.

So, no. There is no bamboozling. It is just a failure to communicate.

And, as I said, I don't ever believe that huge changes necessarily fix things. They almost always cause regression errors. It is better to remain incredulous, in my opinion. Better to take a "we'll see" stance. Getting your hopes up about things you don't really understand is just setting yourself up for disappointment.

I know not everyone was for it, and it would not have been the ultimate in balance, but I think it would have helped. Anyway, miscommunication or bamboozling, it's a gray area. I remember we were in the chat box with justg and everyone was talking about stat-driven skills and PvP balance, etc. Did justg feel like telling us we were wrong about it, no he just said don't worry hybrids won't become weaker, it will just strengthen some players. And that's just one of many examples. They should have let us know a long time ago that we were all wrong about what it meant.
And no bmc, it's not stat-driven skills. It it level-driven skills. If damage of skills increases with level, but not any particular stat, it is not stat-driven...

[asommers]

How about 'Attribute-based skill scaling?' Is that clearer?

-ALS

[Snakespeare]

And it was originally hoped to be released a month ago, but it could be another month or two before it is implemented, whatever it is. No doubt they have tried a few different ways and can't get it to work out. Maybe G was talking about their goal, which is that it not make anyone weaker, but make some stronger, and he was giving assurances that this was their intent. But since it doesn't exist, all they can know is their intent.

I have never once felt any deception from any one of these guys. So I trust that it is miscommunication.

Oops... Post typed before I read asommers...

[Snakespeare]

Will the attribute cause the skill to scale, or will the level cause it?

[Royce]

How about 'Attribute-based skill scaling?' Is that clearer?

-ALS

Not particularly, since it is not scaling with any particular attribute, but just with level (or combined attributes since that correlates directly with level). If skills scale with level why try to say they are scaling with attributes. Sure attributes scale with level but it's like attributes and skills will both scale with level. Trying to call it stat-driven or attribute-based in any way is misleading IMO. I don't really care so much what it is called now that I know what it is, but I think saying skills will scale with level or even with XP is much less convoluted and more clear than trying to connect them to attributes.

In fact, if a level 45 player who had never distributed their attribute points (still had 7, 2, 1 in other words) would have more powerful skills than a level one with those same attributes, than calling it attribute-based in any way is a complete misnomer.

[Tailless]

ow... my head head hurts, no more reading this thread for me :)

[bmc85uk]

I got the impression that it was scaled like weapon damage, which is by base attributes (or stats, whatever you wanna call em) not level, forget the fact that attribute points = levels, weapon damage doesn't feed off of level directly.

If this is truly level based, then I'd hope it would be released at the same time as an updated health/mana system, otherwise skills will decimate at higher levels. If this is infact the case, I think it's a waste of time increasing damage across the board, balance is a bigger issue and making definitive differences between hybrid and pure skills (mainly the enchantress)

Better skill scaling is something still needed though, but with only 5 levels in each skill it's hard to do. What I envision is something like a 10 level skill cap but 2 skill points per level. Skills would max out higher than they currently do, but as skill level increased so would mana cost, preventing powerful skills on characters of too low a level.

Whether skills are scaled this way, by level or attributes, some form of health & mana per level system is needed (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?4677-Overhaul), as skill damage is set to increase, for some if not all classes.

[FluffNStuff]

Not particularly, since it is not scaling with any particular attribute, but just with level (or combined attributes since that correlates directly with level). If skills scale with level why try to say they are scaling with attributes. Sure attributes scale with level but it's like attributes and skills will both scale with level. Trying to call it stat-driven or attribute-based in any way is misleading IMO. I don't really care so much what it is called now that I know what it is, but I think saying skills will scale with level or even with XP is much less convoluted and more clear than trying to connect them to attributes.

In fact, if a level 45 player who had never distributed their attribute points (still had 7, 2, 1 in other words) would have more powerful skills than a level one with those same attributes, than calling it attribute-based in any way is a complete misnomer.

From what I have read from the Devs your skills would be scalled based on your expected primary attribute. So a point in Strength would increase skills for a warrior, a point in Dex would increase skills for an Archer and a point in Intelligence would increase skills for a Mage. Devs, please confirm if this is correct. Oh, and also please remove the turn to shoot spasm.

source of information, a comment from the Pocket Legends Facebook page under the topic July Roadmap:

Pocket Legends: Max, it is a way to address the perceived imbalance of pures vs. hybrids. Essentially your stats will affect how much damage your skills do (as opposed to how it is now, only rank affects the damage). So an INT Mage would cast more powerful spells than bow-mage.

[Royce]

From what I have read from the Devs your skills would be scalled based on your expected primary attribute. So a point in Strength would increase skills for a warrior, a point in Dex would increase skills for an Archer and a point in Intelligence would increase skills for a Mage. Devs, please confirm if this is correct. Oh, and also please remove the turn to shoot spasm.

source of information, a comment from the Pocket Legends Facebook page under the topic July Roadmap:

Wait, that's what I thought it was :D But I thought Futumsh contradicted that. Did I misunderstand?

[Futumsh]

The higher ranks will likely scale with both level and attributes. The lower ranks will likely be very similar to the existing ones.

[Royce]

The higher ranks will likely scale with both level and attributes. The lower ranks will likely be very similar to the existing ones.

Okay I did misunderstand. It sounds like you guys are still working out how it will work exactly. Thanks for the clarification and additional detail.

[LIGHTNINGLORD67]

I don't get any of this lol!

My brain is too weak to handle this much use of vocabulary. Please explain! Kthxbai.

[Snakespeare]

The higher ranks will likely scale with both level and attributes. The lower ranks will likely be very similar to the existing ones.

If the skill scaled to level or attribute, whichever is higher, then it might work. That would mean the Warrior's Stomp, for instance, would be scaled to his Str, but the Bowmage's would be scaled to level, unless he spent more points on Str.

Something like that?

[bmc85uk]

If the skill scaled to level or attribute, whichever is higher, then it might work. That would mean the Warrior's Stomp, for instance, would be scaled to his Str, but the Bowmage's would be scaled to level, unless he spent more points on Str.

Something like that?

From what I've heard so far, skills will scale with level & attribute, so while a STR mage would get a boost from level bonus, an INT mage would gain a level bonus and an attribute bonus.