Is acquiring plat gear a form of gambling?

[Blaquehaaart]

Using real money for the chance to acquire an item seems like a form of gambling.

This leads to the questions:

Is that legal in the Android market and condoned by Google?

Also, isn't gambling illegal in most states. Is using in game currency, purchased with real money, in games of chance get around state gambling laws?

I definitely think the grab box systems raises some ethical question. I can see if the gamble was made with gold acquired in the game, but considering the grab boxes are played with real money I think there are some legal issue involved.

[Blaquehaaart]

Ok just checked the android market policies:


Gambling: We don’t allow content or services that facilitate online gambling, including but not limited to, online casinos, sports betting and lotteries.

Not sure about state laws. I couldn't find anything definitive.

[Carth]

It is a form of gambling.

Gambling: An act or undertaking of uncertain outcome; a risk:

Gambling with the use of real money fits with Android's term that you've provided.

Nice find by the way. :)

[Beanmachine]

Does that mean we all get our plat back:vsmile::vwink::vD::vlol::vP:

or they could fix this with a guaranteed pink.

[Otukura]

It is a form of gambling.

Gambling: An act or undertaking of uncertain outcome; a risk:

Gambling with the use of real money fits with Android's term that you've provided.

Nice find by the way. :)
I'd like to see that hold up in court.

[Carth]

I think a refund and replacement or removal of the service seems reasonable enough.

[Carth]

I'd like to see that hold up in court.
It wouldn't. Fortunately though, this isn't court. :p

EDIT: Uh! Double posted without realizing. I guess that's a sign of needed sleep. :/

[Otukura]

STS doesnt have to do anything. And gaming has quite a few definitions, that one is a very broad form. Google could be talking about gambling real monney, where you could cash out.

[KingFu]

Scratch off tickets are a form of gambling and you can buy them from albertsons. Heck, I went to a fair today and they had a wheel you could spin for a dollar to get different prizes, which is also gambling. As Otu said, there's lots of forms of it, just depends on how strict you wanna get with it.

[Otukura]

Scratch off tickets are a form of gambling and you can buy them from albertsons. Heck, I went to a fair today and they had a wheel you could spin for a dollar to get different prizes, which is also gambling. As Otu said, there's lots of forms of it, just depends on how strict you wanna get with it.

did you win?!?!!? :D

[xfrzen]

Well STS OWNS ALL CHARACTERS AND ITEMS and we get to use them for signing up, so its technically STS gambling as we facilitate how the gambling is done... no lawsuit and against no Google terms, only if we won real cash would there be an issue..

[KingFu]

did you win?!?!!? :D

The wheel? The spinning colors make me dizzy...so I didn't even try

[xkoolwillx]

Using real money for the chance to acquire an item seems like a form of gambling.

This leads to the questions:

Is that legal in the Android market and condoned by Google?

Also, isn't gambling illegal in most states. Is using in game currency, purchased with real money, in games of chance get around state gambling laws?

I definitely think the grab box systems raises some ethical question. I can see if the gamble was made with gold acquired in the game, but considering the grab boxes are played with real money I think there are some legal issue involved.
You got this from the thread earlier on when me and Carth were discussing it -.- but no StS doesnt have to hive money back since gamebling is based on luck while StS has a coding at how often a certain item drops. So now lawsuit against StS

[Blaquehaaart]

You got this from the thread earlier on when me and Carth were discussing it -.- but no StS doesnt have to hive money back since gamebling is based on luck while StS has a coding at how often a certain item drops. So now lawsuit against StS

Ummm...gambling is also based on hard statistics, there is very little luck involved. Casinos wouldn't be a billion dollar industry if there wasn't the hard math to turn over a predictable profit. These statistic can also be used in counting cards, which is the reason it is illegal in Casinos.

There is no statistical difference between computerized randomization and setting the colors and numbers on a roulette wheel, or playing with standard deck of cards, or playing the number combination on a set of dice. They all give predictable statistical outcomes.

STS can argue that people always win because they get a weapon a couple gems, but there is the perceived notion that it is a form of gambling.

Someone also brought up another really good point. I'm fairly certain that it is illegal for 17 year olds to gamble...I actually think that you can't do it under 21 in all the US.

The reason I bring it up is there is because of the ethical reasons. These grab boxes are set up like casino games in which they play into someone's impulses in effort to get people to play it more, thus making more money (considering platinum is purchased with real cash). People are going to dump a ton of money impulsively. I am one of the victims.

[Airrie]

Interesting topic.

In an effort to prevent this from going in the wrong direction, allow me to clarify with some simple points.
If you buy a random pack, you're always rewarded. It may or may not be your favorite item, but the outcome is always positive.
Actual gambling, like at a casino, runs the risk of an absolute negative. There is no guarantee of any positive outcome and the odds are either entirely for you, or against you at either a gain or absolute loss.

Think of it like buying a booster pack of cards from your favorite card game or putting a quarter in a machine that gives you a toy at random. ;) Chance.

[Takezaki]

Interesting topic.

In an effort to prevent this from going in the wrong direction, allow me to clarify with some simple points.
If you buy a random pack, you're always rewarded. It may or may not be your favorite item, but the outcome is always positive.
Actual gambling, like at a casino, runs the risk of an absolute negative. There is no guarantee of any positive outcome and the odds are either entirely for you, or against you at either a gain or absolute loss.

Think of it like buying a booster pack of cards from your favorite card game or putting a quarter in a machine that gives you a toy at random. ;) Chance.

This.

[Beanmachine]

Interesting topic.

In an effort to prevent this from going in the wrong direction, allow me to clarify with some simple points.
If you buy a random pack, you're always rewarded. It may or may not be your favorite item, but the outcome is always positive.
Actual gambling, like at a casino, runs the risk of an absolute negative. There is no guarantee of any positive outcome and the odds are either entirely for you, or against you at either a gain or absolute loss.

Think of it like buying a booster pack of cards from your favorite card game or putting a quarter in a machine that gives you a toy at random. ;) Chance.

Now this resolves all the confusion and controversy of this "gambling" topic. But I feel the need to point out, that in other STS games, plat gear was slightly worse than regular pinks looted from dungeons. Now it seems that plat is the only way to get the top notch gear, which seems quite unfair in PvP. Will this continue as the level cap increases or will it remain as it is?

[Blaquehaaart]

Interesting topic.

In an effort to prevent this from going in the wrong direction, allow me to clarify with some simple points.
If you buy a random pack, you're always rewarded. It may or may not be your favorite item, but the outcome is always positive.
Actual gambling, like at a casino, runs the risk of an absolute negative. There is no guarantee of any positive outcome and the odds are either entirely for you, or against you at either a gain or absolute loss.

Think of it like buying a booster pack of cards from your favorite card game or putting a quarter in a machine that gives you a toy at random. ;) Chance.

Toy machines, grab boxes, and bingo are a form of gambling. It fits the definition of playing a game of chance for intended gain. Never-the-less, these grab boxes are marketed specifically to play for a chance to win a legendary weapon...you get the other stuff as a consulary prize.

No one is playing the game for greens. I'm sure the grab bag loop hole is one sts would use in a legal case. However, the marketed intent is to sell legendary items by impulsive means...I mean when you click on the box it's not showing your toon holding the green weapons.

More over, we are not talking about 25 cent stickers or a $2.50 pack of baseball cards...which I've never seen advertise one particular card or stick in hopes you buy the entire pack. Someone can potential spend hundreds of dollars trying to get a legendary weapon. The scope is far greater in this context, and the intent of the grab boxes...gambling or not...is to game people out real life money. In any case, I believe there are ethical issues concerning this practice. It definitely plays into impulse, which is conducive of a gambling nature.

[Mrsberry]

This thread made me lol.

[Rare]

Toy machines, grab boxes, and bingo are a form of gambling. It fits the definition of playing a game of chance for intended gain. Never-the-less, these grab boxes are marketed specifically to play for a chance to win a legendary weapon...you get the other stuff as a consulary prize.

No one is playing the game for greens. I'm sure the grab bag loop hole is one sts would use in a legal case. However, the marketed intent is to sell legendary items by impulsive means...I mean when you click on the box it's not showing your toon holding the green weapons.

More over, we are not talking about 25 cent stickers or a $2.50 pack of baseball cards...which I've never seen advertise one particular card or stick in hopes you buy the entire pack. Someone can potential spend hundreds of dollars trying to get a legendary weapon. The scope is far greater in this context, and the intent of the grab boxes...gambling or not...is to game people out real life money. In any case, I believe there are ethical issues concerning this practice. It definitely plays into impulse, which is conducive of a gambling nature.

No offense, but this is ridiculous.

You are buying a pack. You are getting items. You may or may not get the legendary item.

In most states, gambling is illegal. In said states, are you prohibited from investing in the stock market?

Point is, A LOT of things in life are gambling when you break them down.

[KillaSkillz]

Yes. every time you are getting something in return for the plat spent. It may not have been what you wanted, but you always get something. Don't do it if it bothers you. Baseball cards are not considered gambling for that reason. You get what was promised and a chance at a rare insert card.

The game is new, in 1 or 2 updates those pinks will be ready for retirement anyways. And there will be another bunch of great weapons released that will also have a limited shelf life when that next update comes.

I use greens, I might suck at pvp because of it, but oh well. When I do beat players with pinks it makes the victory that much sweeter!

[Ripper McGee]

Using real money for the chance to acquire an item seems like a form of gambling.

This leads to the questions:

Is that legal in the Android market and condoned by Google?

Also, isn't gambling illegal in most states. Is using in game currency, purchased with real money, in games of chance get around state gambling laws?

I definitely think the grab box systems raises some ethical question. I can see if the gamble was made with gold acquired in the game, but considering the grab boxes are played with real money I think there are some legal issue involved.


It is a form of gambling.

Gambling: An act or undertaking of uncertain outcome; a risk:

Gambling with the use of real money fits with Android's term that you've provided.

Nice find by the way. :)

It's not gambling, because you're not risking money for an uncertain outcome. When you purchase a pack, you are purchasing items, guaranteed. You always get X number of items for your purchase. The items received may be random and some items may be more desirable than others, but you never run the risk of getting "nothing". As such, it's not gambling, it's a purchase of legitimate goods with an established base price.

[Deathpunch]

It's not gambling, because you're not risking money for an uncertain outcome. When you purchase a pack, you are purchasing items, guaranteed. You always get X number of items for your purchase. The items received may be random and some items may be more desirable than others, but you never run the risk of getting "nothing". As such, it's not gambling, it's a purchase of legitimate goods with an established base price.

Good call.

-----
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D

[Blaquehaaart]

It very much is a gamble considering you are playing for chance, for the best items in the game, for money. If there was a grab bag with only greens would you play it? It's not for vanity items, it's for items that give a great advantage to the overall game mechanics.

The grab boxes are specifically marketed and set up to win a legendary weapon and gems. No one would play it...at least not near the frequency...if the best items in the game wasn't involved.

I could see if it was a grab bag of different legendary weapons with different stats, but it is not.

Bottom line, the game is set up to be impulsive in nature and to game people in playing over and over, and it uses real money to do so. Also, it is necessary play the grab boxes to be competitive in the game, which is another factor that brings into question the morality of these methods.

The intended purpose of the game for both STS and the players is to play for legendary weapons, they market it by showing the picture of your character holding the legendary weapons and it is the main selling point in the description. If you don't get a legendary, yes, they'll give you a consilary prize. However, for all intended purposes if you don't win an epic it very much is an all or nothing game, and very much a gamble especially considering the stakes are for real money.

[Aculeas]

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.

usually when you are gambling you are playing for money/material goods. I get no money in return for my risk taking nor do I recieve any material goods that will bag me some money in the future.

I possibly recieve a pink weapon in a virtual world that has no value to any other player atm except myself. Yes, this is gambling. But it's much like the gambling little kids do at their local church/school no monetary reward = it is all fun and games.

[Xaphan Fox]

Lets focus on the actual issue:

This game represents a bit of a shift in sts's plat philosophy.

Before now, in sl and pl, plat got you esthetic items with no increase to playing power, or items EQUIVALENT to that which is dropped with no increase in playing power over what anyone could do for free with some amount of time investment.

Now: the best items are gained through plat purchases, and random chance plat purchases at that!

This change now weighs game performance, now more than ever, in the plat purchaser's favor.

I understand this is beta, and not at all indicative of what the end game store and its items will actually be...

But sts has already stated the increase in plat costs in this game over pl/sl is to place this game on the same profit footing as other iap saturated games.

The other games are a rip off. Its a mobile bubble everyone is cashing in on, and it will surely, hopefully, burst soon. Sts following this cash heavy model cause everyone else is doing it I find very unfortunate, but completely expected.

No matter how much everyone loathes it, people will still spend 50bucks on firebrand attempts and not get it/get it. Sts will still cash in. Business as usual.

I love sts's games. I love the people on it. I truely hope sts realizes some errors in their gaming philosophy, and act accordingly:

as people who play games also, and not just representatives of a company expanding a bottom line.

Also, as a side note for sts:

The cost of things is very high. 20 bucks can get me a single item or more slots, or it can buy me a whole damn Xbox game.

I might not wanna buy a single 50 dollar item, but if things were 1 2 5 10 dollars, I might buy a lot more stuff and probably spend more than 50 overall. Just a thought.

You all want/need money. I truely understand. But I believe you are moving in the wrong direction to get it.

Love you guys.

As flip has said to me in the past, hopefully this post is free of the vitriol of past critiques of your business model, and you will take some of this to heart.

Bark bark woof.
*nuzzles*

[Xaphan Fox]

Oh also:

Yes I know sl has some plat bought items that are better than dropped (shields that yeild a set bonus), I'm referring to the more cash intensive pattern from game to game, month to month, that seems to flow into sts's games with increasing frequency.

I also am aware I can play for free and do not have to engage into the money game with Sts. Old response to an old argument.

Kindly keep reponces to my responce on the topic of the increasing money cost and game design weighted in the money spender's favor.

Thanks.
*noselicks*

[Rare]

I might not wanna buy a single 50 dollar item, but if things were 1 2 5 10 dollars, I might buy a lot more stuff and probably spend more than 50 overall. Just a thought.


Very true. This goes hand in hand with my stashable vanities argument as well. How many people, honestly, are going to buy 2 or 3 of the same vanity sets? Its just going to make people not want to buy plat at all.

[Takezaki]

That would be like saying buying bubble gum is gambling, cause you might not get the desired flavor.

[Cero]

That would be like saying buying bubble gum is gambling, cause you might not get the desired flavor.


lol

[Ripper McGee]

Using real money for the chance to acquire an item seems like a form of gambling.

This leads to the questions:

Is that legal in the Android market and condoned by Google?

Also, isn't gambling illegal in most states. Is using in game currency, purchased with real money, in games of chance get around state gambling laws?

I definitely think the grab box systems raises some ethical question. I can see if the gamble was made with gold acquired in the game, but considering the grab boxes are played with real money I think there are some legal issue involved.


It very much is a gamble considering you are playing for chance, for the best items in the game, for money. If there was a grab bag with only greens would you play it? It's not for vanity items, it's for items that give a great advantage to the overall game mechanics.

The grab boxes are specifically marketed and set up to win a legendary weapon and gems. No one would play it...at least not near the frequency...if the best items in the game wasn't involved.

I could see if it was a grab bag of different legendary weapons with different stats, but it is not.

Bottom line, the game is set up to be impulsive in nature and to game people in playing over and over, and it uses real money to do so. Also, it is necessary play the grab boxes to be competitive in the game, which is another factor that brings into question the morality of these methods.

The intended purpose of the game for both STS and the players is to play for legendary weapons, they market it by showing the picture of your character holding the legendary weapons and it is the main selling point in the description. If you don't get a legendary, yes, they'll give you a consilary prize. However, for all intended purposes if you don't win an epic it very much is an all or nothing game, and very much a gamble especially considering the stakes are for real money.

It's been explained pretty succinctly to you by both devs and players. It's not gambling. Bicker all you want but an apple is not an orange. You are buying a pack of gear for your platinum. That's it. You pay for a pack of gear and you get a pack of gear... There's no gamble there. As stated before, some pieces of the gear are more desirable than others, but you always get something for your money. That's not gambling. If you choose to keep on buying gear until you obtain that one elusive item you "absolutely have to have" then that's your choice. Still not gambling, because you're still getting exactly what was promised you, X pieces of gear...

Also, you can get other legendary items in your grab boxes. You're guaranteed to get greens, but can also get pink gems and weapons, too. It's a pretty sweet deal, overall, unless you're already totally min/maxed with gear, in which case buying the grab box probably isn't all that smart unless you have money you're willing to burn.

[Ripper McGee]

Lets focus on the actual issue:

This game represents a bit of a shift in sts's plat philosophy.

Before now, in sl and pl, plat got you esthetic items with no increase to playing power, or items EQUIVALENT to that which is dropped with no increase in playing power over what anyone could do for free with some amount of time investment.

Now: the best items are gained through plat purchases, and random chance plat purchases at that!

This change now weighs game performance, now more than ever, in the plat purchaser's favor.

I understand this is beta, and not at all indicative of what the end game store and its items will actually be...

But sts has already stated the increase in plat costs in this game over pl/sl is to place this game on the same profit footing as other iap saturated games.

The other games are a rip off. Its a mobile bubble everyone is cashing in on, and it will surely, hopefully, burst soon. Sts following this cash heavy model cause everyone else is doing it I find very unfortunate, but completely expected.

No matter how much everyone loathes it, people will still spend 50bucks on firebrand attempts and not get it/get it. Sts will still cash in. Business as usual.

I love sts's games. I love the people on it. I truely hope sts realizes some errors in their gaming philosophy, and act accordingly:

as people who play games also, and not just representatives of a company expanding a bottom line.

Also, as a side note for sts:

The cost of things is very high. 20 bucks can get me a single item or more slots, or it can buy me a whole damn Xbox game.

I might not wanna buy a single 50 dollar item, but if things were 1 2 5 10 dollars, I might buy a lot more stuff and probably spend more than 50 overall. Just a thought.

You all want/need money. I truely understand. But I believe you are moving in the wrong direction to get it.

Love you guys.

As flip has said to me in the past, hopefully this post is free of the vitriol of past critiques of your business model, and you will take some of this to heart.

Bark bark woof.
*nuzzles*

1) It's not beta! Why do players keep stating it is? It's not...

2) I personally don't have any issues with the current model. Nobody's making me spend money and I could afford the $50 I did spend (and have about 1/2 of it left). There's nothing I bought that I couldn't absolutely live without and I disagree that it's helping me in PvP. I have a Plat weapon, but it doesn't make me a better PvPer. My kill:death ratio is horrible!

Please note, I'm adamantly opposed to play-to-win pricing, but I just don't see the current items as "play-to-win". Why? Because this isn't a competitive game. Yes, there's PvP, but there aren't any rewards for it. If this was a pure PvP game and the items made a significant difference between non-paying and/or lesser paying players then I would be completely opposed to it. That's just not the way it is. As stated before, in another thread, level and certain skills are the big modifiers for PvP success. Certain tems are just icing on the cake.

[Xaphan Fox]

Version 0.9.1

That's beta.

[Samhayne]

Hello gents,

I think everyone has had their say on this topic and we're just continuing to go around the same arguments.

Thread closed.