Ripper's definition of F2P - how does it apply to Dark Legends?

[Ripper McGee]

First, a little bit about me:

I've been playing game a long time. I'm part of the original Atari generation (actually started with Pong) and have played tabletop and electronic games through my entire life, including MMOs for over 15 years. I was a de facto "unofficial" team member for Dungeon Runners and Associate Producer for a game called Dungeon Bandits that won't ever see the light of day (unfortunately).

One of the ways in which games have evolved over the years has been specific to the payment model. Subscription games have lessened both in popularity and profitability and microtransaction-supported "F2P" games have gained in popularity, due in large part to how profitable they can be. As gaming has evolved, I have too. I grew up, my career has taken off, I've had a family and my entertainment priorities--along with their financial dependencies--have changed over the years. I enjoy both subscription and F2P games, but F2P game seem to fit my life a little better as I'm getting older. I can play a number of games casually instead of being tethered to just one that I have to play "because I paid for it".

With the proliferation of various "F2P" games over the last few years, there's been a lot of player discussion about the concepts of "pay-to-win", "nothing is free" and "there's no such thing as F2P". A lot of games have given players reason for such discussion. From my perspective, the issue really pertains to marketing. Games are marketed as "F2P", but there really aren't any standards that define that term. So, I've come up with my own definition (which I've posted a few places over the last year or two) of what constitutes a "real F2P":

1) The client must be free - if there's a barrier to entry, such as having to buy the client , then the game does not qualify as "F2P". Guild Wars is an excellent example of a game that can be played for free, but only after an initial purchase of the client license.

2) The "game" must be free - What's the "game"? Playable content. All levels, quests, dungeons, instances, etc... must be free. No velvet-ropes cordoning off content. Alganon is an example of a game for which players must pay real money in order to progress beyond a certain character level (30). This is where many studios/publishers get into semantic gray areas, as far as I'm concerned. With Alganon, one can technically play free "forever", never progressing beyond level 30, but why? Wizard101 is a fantastic game (and one for whom several friends work), but I disagree with how it's marketed as being free-to-play. In the case of Wizard101, the semantic arguments are even more egregious. Yes, one can play free forever, but new players are essentially locked into "newbie island". That's not truly "F2P", IMO.

3) No pay-to-win sales - Simply put, a F2P game cannot offer items for sale that give a significant competitive advantage over non-paying/less paying (ex: two players might both spend $50, but one spends it on weapons and another on sparkly ponies) players. Please note, this really only matters in games in which competition matters in terms of progression, rewards, etc... If, for example, you legitimately cannot level without assistance from RMT (Real Money Transaction) items then you're paying to win. If your guild keep can't be maintained unless you buy items that defend against intruders then you're paying to win. Imagine a very competitive game like Darkfall selling uber weapons for real money? What if only those guilds whose members bought the uber weapons were able to be successful in game? Definitely pay-to-win.

Examples of some games that were truly F2P in my opinion were Dungeon Runners and Faxion Online.

How do truly free game make money? Well, the two above are bad examples, because they're both defunct, but that's not due to their revenue model. Free games make money from selling vanity and convenience! Typically, this is achieved through some variation the 89/10/1 revenue model (89% of players never pay anything, 10% pay something and 1% pay a lot!), provided there's sufficient ARPU (Average Revenue per User) and ARPPU (Average Revenue per Paying user). Ultimately, volume is what makes F2P games profitable. The more players the more players that will pay and great chance for increased ARPU and ARPPU!
So, with those definitions in mind (which are entirely my own opinion), how does Dark Legends stack up?

1) Is the client free? Yes.

2) Is the "game" free? Yes.

3) Are there pay-to-win sales? No. Yes, as of now the most powerful items in game do come from platinum purchases, but they don't affect PvP so significantly, IMO, that they adversely affect the outcome of matches. There are far too many other variables, such as character level, player skill and powers chosen for one to state unequivocally that plat weapons determine the outcome of any match. Even so, PvP in Dark Legends is meaningless fun. There are leader boards, but so what? PvP doesn't affect the "game", as a whole. There aren't any PvP rewards and you can't level up through PvP. As such, the use of platinum weapons--as they exist today--in Dark Legends PvP is fairly meaningless. Yes, they're more powerful than any items currently found in game, but they aren't magic "insta-kill" weapons, either.

Please note, however, if experience or rewards are ever implemented in Dark Legends PvP then I would most definitely want to see items that could be found and traded in game that were at least equal to platinum items of the same level, otherwise I might refine my opinion of #3.

So, based on my personal definition of what constitutes a true "F2P" game, Dark Legends is really F2P!

I'm really curious to hear other player's thoughts on this topic.

[morfic]

I disagree to point #3. At this current time, DL is definitely pay to win.

The point is not how much it affects PvP. The point is that the best gear can be purchased with platinum. In every F2P MMO on the market, that is probably the biggest point of concern, and biggest complaint. The best gear in the game should come from PvE content and hard work, with the platinum items being a close second/third. It's not really the point of how much better the weapons are...but rather, that the plat bought stuff IS the best.

Its just kind of disheartening for players who spend sooo much time farming and trying to get the best equipment for their character. Then step into pvp with some guy who just clicked the "buy" button on items even better than his, with no effort, and lose.

Gear should reflect time/effort spent. Not dollar signs.

[Ripper McGee]

I disagree to point #3. At this current time, DL is definitely pay to win.

If it's pay-to-win, then you have to win something, by definition. What do players with plat gear "win"? An e-peen contest? It certainly doesn't guarantee wins in PvP or lack of deaths in PvE.

Unless there's some measurable component of what they win, it can't be called pay-to-win, IMO.

[StompArtist]

If it's pay-to-win, then you have to win something, by definition. What do players with plat gear "win"? An e-peen contest? It certainly doesn't guarantee wins in PvP or lack of deaths in PvE.

Unless there's some measurable component of what they win, it can't be called pay-to-win, IMO.

Well... by that definition a no pay to win game has ever existed.

[Ripper McGee]

Well... by that definition a no pay to win game has ever existed.

I disagree entirely. There are games where one most definitely can't succeed without paying for gear, mostly Asian games. Even "westernized" games like Runes of Magic are arguably pay-to-win, especially when it comes to higher level content, PvP servers or guild-vs-guild pvp.

[morfic]

Pay-to-win isn't a term that ensures automatic victory through items.

Pay-to-win is just a term that was coined from being able to by the best equipment with money. People who put little to no effort into their gear, now have the possibility to perform just as well as people who did. It just belittles the work others have put in for those same (or worse) stats on gear.

[PL Playa]

When it comes to PvP though I in a way must agree, though sorta disagree, some of the better items can be attained through platinum, but in the end the difference between platinum items and PvE acquired items is sorta filled in by the skill of the user.

So basically if u are a very good PvP fighter, you can still win against someone with better stats, though this may change, that is how I see it at this moment

[Ripper McGee]

Pay-to-win is just a term that was coined from being able to by the best equipment with money.

Says who? The term itself is pretty self explanatory.

[StompArtist]

You should hook up with another poster called Akeibo. You guys/girls would have a blast!

[morfic]

Says who? The term itself is pretty self explanatory.

? It's just common knowledge. Go to any game, or any forums and ask, "What makes a game pay-to-win?"

The response will be "a game where you can buy the best gear with money". In your idea of a pay-to-win game, what happens if I buy all the best gear (that is supposed to guarantee victory 100% of the time), and then eat a sandwhich with one hand, smoke a cigarette, and talk on the phone while pvp'n? I would probably lose. Same thing if I went totally afk. There is no button you can press, or money you can spend that will automatically hand you a victory. You have to play, and you have to know how to pvp. At that point, the stats on your gear come into play. If you suck at pvp horribly and run in circles, and can't control your guy, and mash all the wrong buttons, you are going to lose no matter what.

Not even sure what the argument here is.

[Aculeas]

If two players are evenly matched (SKILLS not gear) and they show down in PVP the one with plat gear will come out on top every time (being that their skills are EVENLY matched)

That is Pay-to-Win

[Xaphan Fox]

STS has gradually tweaked its payment philosophy. It has slowly evolved to further promote/influence plat purchases. Pay To Win means the best items are bought. Period. What you do with the items is completely up to the individual player, sure... but all things even, the person with the bought gear will out perform the player of equivalent skill who abstained from purchasing items. Period. This is irrefutable fact.

...and the items in question come from random chance packs and not even sure thing purchases... further promoting the cash inflow.

I too started in the pong/atari days. I have seen games go from artistic obsessions from small teams who love their "baby" to the big business controlled money makers that they are today. As soon as video games were no longer viewed as "geared for children", and their interactive value started to trump the movie industry's earnings, the industry has sold out to profitability, and the players are the ones footing the bill.

STS and DL are wonderful. I truly enjoy them both, but the games have been on an increasing trend of increasing cost.

If the bought items were esthetic only, or just gave you an expedited path to end game only... then I would say its free to play. But having more power in either pve or pvp due to the bought weapons and supporting items giving you an edge, however small, makes the game most certainly pay to win.

woof...

[Aculeas]

STS has gradually tweaked its payment philosophy. It has slowly evolved to further promote/influence plat purchases. Pay To Win means the best items are bought. Period. What you do with the items is completely up to the individual player, sure... but all things even, the person with the bought gear will out perform the player of equivalent skill who abstained from purchasing items. Period. This is irrefutable fact.

...and the items in question come from random chance packs and not even sure thing purchases... further promoting the cash inflow.

I too started in the pong/atari days. I have seen games go from artistic obsessions from small teams who love their "baby" to the big business controlled money makers that they are today. As soon as video games were no longer viewed as "geared for children", and their interactive value started to trump the movie industry's earnings, the industry has sold out to profitability, and the players are the ones footing the bill.

STS and DL are wonderful. I truly enjoy them both, but the games have been on an increasing trend of increasing cost.

If the bought items were esthetic only, or just gave you an expedited path to end game only... then I would say its free to play. But having more power in either pve or pvp due to the bought weapons and supporting items giving you an edge, however small, makes the game most certainly pay to win.

woof...

Out to close another thread are we?

Also I agree plat bought gear is the best gear available so if you buy the packs and recieve the legendary item you seek. You have a better weapon than I do after grinding for a day. You get to go nanny nanny poo poo I got better gear than you! and all you did was shell out some cash.

But since my good friend the fox here decided to mention Star Legends a game I love so dearly I will also have to mention that aside from the gambling aspect of these plat packs in DL. The platinum purchasable gear was better than the in game gear for the first couple of campaigns and I don't seem to recall any such joyous uproar.

Not sure what the point of this post was... PAY ATTENTION ONLY TO THE FIRST LINE.

[Xaphan Fox]

At least I am much nicer and diplomatic with my wording!

The point:

Pay to win is a horrible business model. It insults players who wanna play the game and rewards players who want shortcuts. Which means they play the game less, focus less on the content the devs spend months developing, so they can laser beam focus on end content... a small portion of the overall game.

Bought items should be esthetic only, or short cuts to any items of equivalent power that can be farmed in game. Plat purchases should=time spent in game to some degree.

DL is fun. Better than PL by leaps and bounds, and a refreshing twist on what I like in SL, but popular mobile games "are" progressively getting more saturated with IAP's, and I do not think it is doing the industry any good.

I weep every time a major company offers day one downloadable content, etc... I'd like to not see this in the games I enjoy.

[Gaddy]

Agree. DL is a true F2P . It fits all the req's. Hopefully #3 will never become an issue...

[Cjon]

Going to have to completely disagree with your assessment on PVP. I personally consider the PVE aspect of the game to be for building up your character (Experience and equipment). Due to the lack of any sort of depth or challenge in PVE, and by the fact that the rewards eventually become irrelevant (max level and equipment), there leaves little to no reason to continue doing PVE content (with the exception of achievements, which is also finite). Combined with the energy mechanic limiting the amount of time that can be spent doing PVE content, I feel that PVE can not be considered as the primary source of replayability.

Your argument that PVP shouldn't be considered when determining whether or not the game is pay-to-win, is flawed. Due to the non-limited amount of time one can spend doing PVP, and by the fact that PVP has more depth than PVE (although arguably not by much), implies that PVP is the primary source of replayability. Should this not be considered when determining the significance of pay-to-win items?

Another point to consider is that plat-items do not provide much benefit to PVE content. You can solo every 3d-mission with gear that is far from high tier, meaning that the benefit of the plat gear is minimal.

On the other hand, the plat gear does in fact give you a significant advantage in PVP. And since PVP is arguably the primary source of replayability, this should be taken into account.

DL is not a PVE game, and not all that much of a PVP game. But it is moreso a PVP game than a PVE game, meaning that plat items should be designed with this in mind.

[Cjon]

Pay-to-win isn't a term that ensures automatic victory through items.

Pay-to-win is just a term that was coined from being able to by the best equipment with money. People who put little to no effort into their gear, now have the possibility to perform just as well as people who did. It just belittles the work others have put in for those same (or worse) stats on gear.

As long as the f2p gear is equivalent to the p2p gear, I don't see it as a problem. In order for a f2p game to profit, while still being able to truly fly the "f2p-flag", the developers should sell only things of convenience and vanity. As long as the developer is only selling items equivalent to the f2p items, they are only selling a convenience, and not a benefit. Whether or not a player feels "belittled" is honesty irrelevant. Despite being "f2p", the game still needs to make a profit, and if they can profit off of things that do not give paying players a clear advantage over non-paying players, I see no problem.

[Ripper McGee]

? It's just common knowledge. Go to any game, or any forums and ask, "What makes a game pay-to-win?"

...

Not even sure what the argument here is.

Considering my gaming background, I'd say it's not "just common knowledge". Such an argument belittles the entire discussion.


If two players are evenly matched (SKILLS not gear) and they show down in PVP the one with plat gear will come out on top every time (being that their skills are EVENLY matched)

That is Pay-to-Win

I would agree if that could be shown unequivocally. In fact, I'd love to see that either proven or disproven in Dark Legends. Anecdotal evidence points both ways. Some players believe it makes a difference today, I don't believe it does. I lose too often for it to make any measurable difference! I think some player see particle effects on a weapon and assume that's why you won, not that it's because of a disparity between overall builds, player skill, character level (which does make a large difference) and powers/combos played.


Going to have to completely disagree with your assessment on PVP. I personally consider the PVE aspect of the game to be for building up your character (Experience and equipment). Due to the lack of any sort of depth or challenge in PVE, and by the fact that the rewards eventually become irrelevant (max level and equipment), there leaves little to no reason to continue doing PVE content (with the exception of achievements, which is also finite). Combined with the energy mechanic limiting the amount of time that can be spent doing PVE content, I feel that PVE can not be considered as the primary source of replayability.

Your argument that PVP shouldn't be considered when determining whether or not the game is pay-to-win, is flawed. Due to the non-limited amount of time one can spend doing PVP, and by the fact that PVP has more depth than PVE (although arguably not by much), implies that PVP is the primary source of replayability. Should this not be considered when determining the significance of pay-to-win items?

Another point to consider is that plat-items do not provide much benefit to PVE content. You can solo every 3d-mission with gear that is far from high tier, meaning that the benefit of the plat gear is minimal.

On the other hand, the plat gear does in fact give you a significant advantage in PVP. And since PVP is arguably the primary source of replayability, this should be taken into account.

DL is not a PVE game, and not all that much of a PVP game. But it is moreso a PVP game than a PVE game, meaning that plat items should be designed with this in mind.

Thanks for replying, Cjon. You make some really good points regarding PvP being the primary aspect of the game and, upon reading your post, I'm inclined to agree. It's a unique and new point of view. I still disagree that plat gear gives a significant advantage in PvP, or that it can be easily proven, however, given the myriad of other variables that go into victory even in a 1-v-1 duel. As stated above, though, I'd love to see it proven or disproven so the argument can be put to bed.

All that said, it should be obvious I'm an advocate for true F2P and I think Dark Legends fits the bill given my own personal opinions. If it could be proven empirically that plat weapons absolutely make a significant, measurable difference in PvP outcome I'd be much more inclined to say DL doesn't meet the #3 qualifications. Also, as stated above, should experience or other rewards be granted for victory in PVP, I would absolutely want to take a closer look at the role of plat weapons in PvP.

Regardless, even though plat weapons are currently the "most powerful" in the game, I would rather they weren't. I've always felt their should be gear of at least equivalent power found for free. Then it becomes a matter of convenience buying items.

[Blaquehaaart]

Whoever says this game is not pay-to-win has never played with plat gear, is lying through their teeth, and/or doesn't know what they are talking about. It makes a big difference.

Seriously, try to pvp and pve with, then without plat gear. The difference is night and day. When I upgraded, I can solo instances now without blow tons of pot and do much better in pvp.

Put a plat gear team against a non-plat gear team and they will get smoked in combat...it will be an absolute slaughter. I've 2v4'd non-geared teams consistently, with other geared and skilled players.

This game is definitely play-to-win once you hit 20.

[Xaphan Fox]

Whether plat bought are .1% more potent, or 10% more potent than dropped weapons is not the point. The point is the best are bought, and depending on your build, the gems that drop from the random packs, can be considered the best as well.

The point isnt how good they are, just that they are the best. That is it.

Making dropped gear absolutely equivalent to that which is bought would get rid of the need for these discussions and the drama it inevitably causes.

That is the point.


and Cjon: I love you and shall be friending you in game. Look out for Testament! Ima snuggles you.

[Conradin]

I like runescapes model. They give you an incredible amount of free content (more than moats games have content) and also have a memos payment world (even bigger) now this isn't that uncommon in games, but in RS the members dont get to use their gear/skills in the F2P world, which means everyone has an equal playing field

[Cjon]

Whether plat bought are .1% more potent, or 10% more potent than dropped weapons is not the point. The point is the best are bought, and depending on your build, the gems that drop from the random packs, can be considered the best as well.

The point isnt how good they are, just that they are the best. That is it.

Making dropped gear absolutely equivalent to that which is bought would get rid of the need for these discussions and the drama it inevitably causes.

That is the point.


and Cjon: I love you and shall be friending you in game. Look out for Testament! Ima snuggles you.

Exactly. Buying gear equivalent to the best has absolutely no problems at all. Convenience is a great way to encourage impatient (ie. most people) people to support the game without giving them a clear benefit. Some people will argue that they didn't have to 'work' for there gear, but they're also giving up real world money.

Also. Should I be scared???? :P

[Blaquehaaart]

Whether plat bought are .1% more potent, or 10% more potent than dropped weapons is not the point. The point is the best are bought, and depending on your build, the gems that drop from the random packs, can be considered the best as well.

The point isnt how good they are, just that they are the best. That is it.

Making dropped gear absolutely equivalent to that which is bought would get rid of the need for these discussions and the drama it inevitably causes.

That is the point.


and Cjon: I love you and shall be friending you in game. Look out for Testament! Ima snuggles you.

Well, plat gear is considerably better...

[Cjon]

I like runescapes model. They give you an incredible amount of free content (more than moats games have content) and also have a memos payment world (even bigger) now this isn't that uncommon in games, but in RS the members dont get to use their gear/skills in the F2P world, which means everyone has an equal playing field

Well the benefit of microtransactions is that it allows the free player base to also experience the full game.

[Ripper McGee]

Whoever says this game is not pay-to-win has never played with plat gear, is lying through their teeth, and/or doesn't know what they are talking about. It makes a big difference.

Seriously, try to pvp and pve with, then without plat gear. The difference is night and day. When I upgraded, I can solo instances now without blow tons of pot and do much better in pvp.

Put a plat gear team against a non-plat gear team and they will get smoked in combat...it will be an absolute slaughter. I've 2v4'd non-geared teams consistently, with other geared and skilled players.

This game is definitely play-to-win once you hit 20.

That's just being deliberately rude. I PvP a lot, I have plat gear and it hasn't made any significant difference for me at all. I'm not lying and I do know what I'm talking about because it affects me directly. Just because your experience might be different from somebody else's doesn't make their experience false. The only statement I can't argue with is the post-20 game, because I haven't hit 20 yet. That being said, one of my friends sent me a tell today and was amazed at how different the game was at 20 and how much more powerful he was in PvP. I don't think he has any plat gear, honestly, but I'll have to ask him. But is his new found power the result of gear or a result of the level change? I submit it's a result of the level change...

As for the 20s I've been going up against the last week, it's not their gear that makes a difference, but what powers they choose to use against me, their skill and their builds. Even then, 1-v-1, I still end up losing far more often than not.

[Xaphan Fox]

Level gives more skills which are in turn affected by weapon damage. lvl 20s float around with burst leap vermin combos that are affected by increased damage attribute and the gems that support it.

Everything is connected. Best is bought. I like cupcakes. Everypony knows this...

[Blaquehaaart]

That's just being deliberately rude. I PvP a lot, I have plat gear and it hasn't made any significant difference for me at all. I'm not lying and I do know what I'm talking about because it affects me directly. Just because your experience might be different from somebody else's doesn't make their experience false. The only statement I can't argue with is the post-20 game, because I haven't hit 20 yet. That being said, one of my friends sent me a tell today and was amazed at how different the game was at 20 and how much more powerful he was in PvP. I don't think he has any plat gear, honestly, but I'll have to ask him. But is his new found power the result of gear or a result of the level change? I submit it's a result of the level change...

As for the 20s I've been going up against the last week, it's not their gear that makes a difference, but what powers they choose to use against me, their skill and their builds. Even then, 1-v-1, I still end up losing far more often than not.

At 20, If you don't have plat gear, you'll get one shooted by the vs/fb/stomp combo. However, that combo is only really effective when you out gear and out lvl people. I die far less from it now that I have plat gear.

You won't be competitive in pvp at 20 without plat gear. I'm not saying you don't have the skill, but most people without plat gear are getting rolled. I did really good pre 20 as well.

Frankly, there are more skilled players at 20 rocking full maxed out sets of plat than there is not.

[Ripper McGee]

At 20, If you don't have plat gear, you'll get one shooted by the vs/fb/stomp combo. However, that combo is only really effective when you out gear and out lvl people. I die far less from it now that I have plat gear.

You won't be competitive in pvp at 20 without plat gear. I'm not saying you don't have the skill, but most people without plat gear are getting rolled. I did really good pre 20 as well.

Frankly, there are more skilled players at 20 rocking full maxed out sets of plat than there is not.

interesting. I'm looking forward to checking out the 20+ game.

Back to the original topic, it seems like the primary point of contention is that most respondents feel the game is pay-to-win, due to pl at gear b being the best, no?

Irrespective of Dark Legends, what do you think of the definition overall?

[Otukura]

I would agree if that could be shown unequivocally. In fact, I'd love to see that either proven or disproven in Dark Legends. Anecdotal evidence points both ways. Some players believe it makes a difference today, I don't believe it does. I lose too often for it to make any measurable difference! I think some player see particle effects on a weapon and assume that's why you won, not that it's because of a disparity between overall builds, player skill, character level (which does make a large difference) and powers/combos played.


I can use chrome to play 2 screens. If I make a macro, so that each person on either screen attacks each other at the same time, does the same combos, and only one has plat gear, will you believe it? It favors the plat user, but only slightly so.




You won't be competitive in pvp at 20 without plat gear. I'm not saying you don't have the skill, but most people without plat gear are getting rolled. I did really good pre 20 as well.

Completely disagree, there is a minor advantage, but not nearly enough for me to take down most plat users.

[Blaquehaaart]

interesting. I'm looking forward to checking out the 20+ game.

Back to the original topic, it seems like the primary point of contention is that most respondents feel the game is pay-to-win, due to pl at gear b being the best, no?

Irrespective of Dark Legends, what do you think of the definition overall?

Frankly, I don't think someone can be competitive in pvp without plat gear at this point. You might be able to 1v1 someone that has full plat gear and you without it (improbable though, unless they are bad, or mess up bad), but after that fight is over the next guy will one shot you.

Buy all means try it. You might prove me wrong. Although, I hit a wall at 20, and now I do significantly better after buying plat gear. It's kinda lame, but I don't think it's worth it to grind out in-game pinks. They aren't nearly as good plat gear, and harder to get.

The truth of the matter, is that I'm not going to continue playing this game if this plat cycle continues. I'd rather just buy D3, because it'd be waaaaaay better and waaaaaay cheaper to play.

[Blaquehaaart]

Completely disagree, there is a minor advantage, but not nearly enough for me to take down most plat users.

Are you playing with plat gear?

[Otukura]

Frankly, I don't think someone can be competitive in pvp without plat gear at this point. You might be able to 1v1 someone that has full plat gear and you without it (improbable though, unless they are bad, or mess up bad), but after that fight is over the next guy will one shot you.

Buy all means try it. You might prove me wrong. Although, I hit a wall at 20, and now I do significantly better after buying plat gear. It's kinda lame, but I don't think it's worth it to grind out in-game pinks. They aren't nearly as good plat gear, and harder to get.

I can hold a 2.7-2.8k/d in ffa ctf, against all 20s. I know k/d doesn't mean much, but there's nothing I can really base off of. I will say I am using macros... just to make things a little easier.



The truth of the matter, is that I'm not going to continue playing this game if this plat cycle continues. I'd rather just buy D3, because it'd be waaaaaay better and waaaaaay cheaper to play.
With you on that, did the open beta this weekend, and will probably just quit DL for it later.

[Wererhino]

tl;dr

[Otukura]

tl;dr

Then why post? It's a interesting discussions, go back to your bridge.

[GELLIO77]

if you ask me for every amazing plat weapon, gem etc. that there is there needs to be a rare pink that is drop-able to counter it.

[morfic]

if you ask me for every amazing plat weapon, gem etc. that there is there needs to be a rare pink that is drop-able to counter it.

At LEAST.

In my opinion, they can have equally as good plat weapons, as dropped weapons.. But leave the visual effects to the dropped weapons.

IE: Plat weapons can be just as good as pinks dropped in missions (not better), but they will not have the flaming, or pestilence effect. You HAVE to give the players a reason to farm missions. If the weapons are better, AND they look 100x better... no one will PvE (or at least not much).

This would give casual players the option to buy weapons just as good, and perform just as well as hardcore players, BUT not give them the visual appeal. There HAS to be a drive for people to farm PvE.

[Xaphan Fox]

Please please take note of what Morfic just said sts. Please please. Any animosity towards pwnies or whatever aside: that is worth discussing with your crew.

[Ripper McGee]

At LEAST.

In my opinion, they can have equally as good plat weapons, as dropped weapons.. But leave the visual effects to the dropped weapons.

IE: Plat weapons can be just as good as pinks dropped in missions (not better), but they will not have the flaming, or pestilence effect. You HAVE to give the players a reason to farm missions. If the weapons are better, AND they look 100x better... no one will PvE (or at least not much).

This would give casual players the option to buy weapons just as good, and perform just as well as hardcore players, BUT not give them the visual appeal. There HAS to be a drive for people to farm PvE.

This is really a tangential discussion, but I'm of the opposite opinion. I would absolutely love for there to be equivalent or better weapons in-game than there are from the plat store, but people pay for things like the particle effects. As such, I'd keep the the in-game weapons plain and the plat weapons "shiny".

[roufus]

Even if you made weapons that are equal to the plat weapons there is still the limited farming aspect of it. due to this new found energy crisis and game mechanics the endless hours of farming is no longer. I bought the plat starter set and I'm almost to lvl 20 and refuse to spend anymore plat. I just log on burn my energy and leave what fun

[Blaquehaaart]

This is really a tangential discussion, but I'm of the opposite opinion. I would absolutely love for there to be equivalent or better weapons in-game than there are from the plat store, but people pay for things like the particle effects. As such, I'd keep the the in-game weapons plain and the plat weapons "shiny".

I agree ripper. Plat items should be more vanity based and give novelty effect. Like it has a chance of turning enemy into a chicken...just the appearance though it not actually change any function of your enemy. Or you can have the weapons look awesome with an endless flow of blood dripping from it, or move like a snake. However, stat wise, they should be on par with average gear at that level.

Bought weapons should never by the most powerful in the game, they should not even come close to the most powerful either. It should be only achieved through in game missions and/or achievements and their stats should reflect the difficultly to acquire the item. That would encourage people to play the game. Buying the best items discourage a lot of people to play. They simply buy the best items, and have no motivation to play other aspects. Frankly, I only run the playable missions to open up the next set of missions. I don't care at all about the drops because the plat gear I have is better than any drops, and I don't really need gold anymore because I was mostly saving to buy in-game pinks.

That is the huge flaw in dark legends system, and compounded by gamble it takes to acquire plat gear, it's a horrendously expensive system. At this point I'm playing out my gear, once it's obsolete I'm done with the game. For the amount of money it would take to continuously have good gear I could spent on much better things, like a vacation, or some really good nights out. I play games because they are cheap mindless entertainment for when I don't feel like going out. I understand that STS is running a business...but come on, this game is a complete rip off and it isn't even that good. D3 is probably cheaper than the money I already spent in this game, and it's gonna blow this game away in every aspect except mobile.

[Cjon]

At level 21, the legendaries you get from 3d-missions should be the same as the strongest plat-gear.

[Ripper McGee]

Then why post? It's a interesting discussions, go back to your bridge.

I was hoping for an interesting discussion,thanks!

[Growwle]

I have played to level 20 and the game does seem a little light on actual content, however, I am happy that it does not require a huge amount of time and that the small amount of content is entertaining for the amount of time spent playing it. This game did help me to realize that I have a compulsive spending problem though.

[Ripper McGee]

FYI, I've hit 20, have removed all plat gear (I only had a level 16 firebrand and level 12 gem, anyway) and am still doing great in PvP. That brings up another issue, though: is spending money required to succeed in PvP, not necessarily for gear, but for respecs? If I'm playing against somebody who hasn't paid to respec, chances are I'm going to succeed where they will fail... That actually makes me question point #3 more than gear purchases.

[Growwle]

FYI, I've hit 20, have removed all plat gear (I only had a level 16 firebrand and level 12 gem, anyway) and am still doing great in PvP. That brings up another issue, though: is spending money required to succeed in PvP, not necessarily for gear, but for respecs? If I'm playing against somebody who hasn't paid to respec, chances are I'm going to succeed where they will fail... That actually makes me question point #3 more than gear purchases.

I think that the random zombies and inability to use blood packs somewhat makes up for poor gear / builds. The worst part is when people leave the fight and one side ends up with more players.

[Cjon]

FYI, I've hit 20, have removed all plat gear (I only had a level 16 firebrand and level 12 gem, anyway) and am still doing great in PvP. That brings up another issue, though: is spending money required to succeed in PvP, not necessarily for gear, but for respecs? If I'm playing against somebody who hasn't paid to respec, chances are I'm going to succeed where they will fail... That actually makes me question point #3 more than gear purchases.

If at lvl 20 your spec isn't 6-7 points in abilities (lvl 1 vermin swarm, lvl 1 fatal burst, lvl 1 leap, lvl 1 Unholy Force/Shadow Dance/Hellblade, and prereqs), you will lose to any lvl 20 with this build if they have any more then 20% of their health left. The FB+VS+Leap combo is disgustingly overpowered, which is the main problem right now, but plat gear makes the difference between instant killing/not instant killing or instantly dying/surviving. Without enough survivability, once they get their FB off, you WILL die before you have the chance to react.

[Blaquehaaart]

If at lvl 20 your spec isn't 6-7 points in abilities (lvl 1 vermin swarm, lvl 1 fatal burst, lvl 1 leap, lvl 1 Unholy Force/Shadow Dance/Hellblade, and prereqs), you will lose to any lvl 20 with this build if they have any more then 20% of their health left. The FB+VS+Leap combo is disgustingly overpowered, which is the main problem right now, but plat gear makes the difference between instant killing/not instant killing or instantly dying/surviving. Without enough survivability, once they get their FB off, you WILL die before you have the chance to react.

Oh yeah, that combo is strictly gear based. Is someone has better plat gear than another plat geared player the one-shoot combo will still insta kill you. Although, that combo will only work on someone you out gear, there are a lot of guys pvping with in-game gear using that build and they are getting pwnned by the guys in plat.

[Cjon]

that combo will only work on someone you out gear

Not true. The combo itself will only kill someone you out gear, but if you get it off on someone of equal gear, it still almost guarantees a victory. Its still the most amount of damage you can do, and it disables for a long time, giving you time to auto-attack. And if they're still not dead you have enough of an health advantage over them, that you will be able to finish them off with ease.

[Blaquehaaart]

Not true. The combo itself will only kill someone you out gear, but if you get it off on someone of equal gear, it still almost guarantees a victory. Its still the most amount of damage you can do, and it disables for a long time, giving you time to auto-attack. And if they're still not dead you have enough of an health advantage over them, that you will be able to finish them off with ease.

Haha...yeah, it pretty much is an "I win" button. It's vs/fb are such a lame play style though, and so boring to play...

[Cjon]

Haha...yeah, it pretty much is an "I win" button. It's vs/fb are such a lame play style though, and so boring to play...

Yes, but its better than getting 2 kills and 47 deaths every game.

[n00b13st]

Pay-to-win isn't a term that ensures automatic victory through items.

Pay-to-win is just a term that was coined from being able to by the best equipment with money. People who put little to no effort into their gear, now have the possibility to perform just as well as people who did. It just belittles the work others have put in for those same (or worse) stats on gear.


My experience has been that skill, experience, reflexes and fast thinking are more important. Buying premium gear helps but doesn't make you a star player. I think it actually tends to weaken you, much like power leveling someone who hasn't already played their way to top level - if you can't do it the hard way, you're not as good of a player.

Admittedly I don't PvP, mostly because it seems a great way to make enemies and hard feelings, so I'm only speaking from a PvE point of view.

[Noobified]

It is pay to win. Take out the skill variable, because that makes for an irrelevant comparison. If you have two people with at same skill level and the only difference is equipment, who do you think wins - Plat gear guy or poor man's gear guy? Of course the rich guy who paid for the best gear. It is true that buying gear won't make you a great player, but what if you're a great player and you decide to buy gear? You'll just be unstoppable! If people wish to spend their hard earned money to have an edge on the competition, more power to them!

[Ripper McGee]

Now that in-game gear is comparable to plat gear, can anybody really argue that DL is pay-to-win? It seems like the game meets all three of my criteria for being a true F2P.

[morfic]

Yep, still pay-to-win.

Your criteria doesn't actually make it a true F2P... Just what YOU consider F2P.

It's P2W in my opinion, and everyone else will have a different opinion on F2P or P2W.

[Snakespeare]

I define "winning" as getting all achievements. DL has plat achievements so it's doesn't meet your definition.

However, my opinion of your definition is that #3 is wrong. Everyone else says that only need to be able to reach cap for free.

If we all start defining terms our own way, pretty soon we won't understand what each other means.

[ArtStar]

I am one of the best players you can meet in-game, but I get creamed in PvP it's not even fun lol.

[Ripper McGee]

Yep, still pay-to-win.

Your criteria doesn't actually make it a true F2P... Just what YOU consider F2P.

It's P2W in my opinion, and everyone else will have a different opinion on F2P or P2W.

Obviously it's my opinion, hence the thread title. Why do you consider it P2W, especially considering the pink in-game items are now the equivalent of the plat items?

[Ripper McGee]

If we all start defining terms our own way, pretty soon we won't understand what each other means.

Hence what I consider a need for a good, fairly simply definition of what F2P really means from a marketing perspective. I'm not saying my definition is perfect, but it's the most comprehensive definition I've seen which is why I posted it for discussion.

[Ripper McGee]

double-post

[Snakespeare]

Hence what I consider a need for a good, fairly simply definition of what F2P really means from a marketing perspective. I'm not saying my definition is perfect, but it's the most comprehensive definition I've seen which is why I posted it for discussion.

I do agree that it would be good to have one definition of the term F2P. I think you are being too restrictive. To me, and I bet to most of the people who use the term, it does not mean that plat gear has to be inferior to gear that drops. I do like it that way, but it's not part of the definition of F2P.

For most people, I think it just has to be possible to reach level cap for free.

[Ripper McGee]

I do agree that it would be good to have one definition of the term F2P. I think you are being too restrictive. To me, and I bet to most of the people who use the term, it does not mean that plat gear has to be inferior to gear that drops. I do like it that way, but it's not part of the definition of F2P.

For most people, I think it just has to be possible to reach level cap for free.

That's definitely simpler, and I think it's probably accurate, but what is it that lets you reach the level cap for free? No content content roped off, no levels blocked for non-paying members and not being forced to purchase items. Can you reach the level cap in Dark Legends for free? We'll have to see, but it would appear so. In the examples of the other "F2P" games I gave, that is most definitely not the case, yet their developers/studios market them as "f2p". Alganon forces you to pay to advance past level 30 and Wizard101 forces you to pay in order to even fully complete the initial "world", much less access any of the other worlds. According to their developers/studios, simply being able to "play" free, regardless what you're playing, makes their games F2P.

[Snakespeare]

Yeah, they are just allowing you to sample their games. That's not the same.

STS is pretty cool this way. But they used to only let you play PL to level 13, then you had to pay. Elixir sales must be pretty good.

[Blaquehaaart]

Now that in-game gear is comparable to plat gear, can anybody really argue that DL is pay-to-win? It seems like the game meets all three of my criteria for being a true F2P.

Items are not comparable in the end game. The only way to get lvl 21 pinks is through plat...you can't farm it.

[Ripper McGee]

Items are not comparable in the end game. The only way to get lvl 21 pinks is through plat...you can't farm it.

Is that simply because there's only level 1 - 20 content and gear, currently? Once you hit level 21, do you continue to earn experience? Are none of the items you loot level 21?