Paladin in Arena of Honor (2022)

[Absolize]

I have made a thread on this topic in the past and considering nothing has been done regarding this matter I feel I should give it another shot, I really want these suggestions to be considered so I can have an enjoyable experience in Honor PvP, along with whoever I am teaming with so they don’t have to suffer as well.

I want to start off by saying this, the Paladin class can not compete to any class in Honor PvP, no matter what level it is. After tons of experimenting (a.k.a tons of deaths) I have a few suggestions for a Paladin buff that could make the class have a fighting chance versus the insane amount of damage the other classes do.



1.) Let’s talk about Critical Hit:

The Paladin’s critical hit percentage is only at a very low 36 fully buffed using the critical force buff “Vital Force”.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/991aac2cf0098c3c574caea0d84c8a17.jpg

- Let us compare this number to other classes:

~ Warrior: 54 Critical Hit fully buffed (includes
+100 damage from the “Rage” buff)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/14ee181608b35384beacf64d8afe7f89.jpg


~ Archer: 61 Critical Hit fully buffed

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/52aca393ebd6e28d3bfb11fab53d8c7e.jpg


~ Ranger: 60 Critical Hit fully buffed

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/15e178c78e30f269f5a8ebb4c24f0775.jpg


~ Enchantress: 52 Critical Hit fully buffed

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/571257a56a73f8a3ccca34bd20151f8b.jpg




Now we can see from this simple comparison, the Paladin class 100% needs a critical hit buff to have any chance to compete.

2.) The “Holy Tempest” Skill

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/98d79e3ab87d0f32679b67466a71f8c3.jpg

Holy Tempest does -30% hit for 3 seconds if landed, this is an extremely underpowered debuff, and this is the Paladin’s ONLY hit debuff. It has a current -30% hit, but if the skill lands it only has a 60% chance to actually debuff them. Meaning even if it lands it doesn’t always debuff their hit. With that being said, I think Holy Tempest should do -65% hit for 5 seconds with a 7 second cooldown. Most classes fully buffed will still have over 100% hit if Holy Tempest does land, which makes it a useless hit debuff without the changes above.

- Let’s compare this hit debuff to other classes hit debuffs:

~ Archer: “Blinding Shot” does -70% hit for 5 seconds

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/46e8c197356ce5c48f0d8ba68a3370f1.jpg


~ Warrior: “Hell Scream” decreases damage by 70 and also does -70% hit

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/3a024b4400d828a781293c56674df6fa.jpg


~ Enchantress: “Weakness” decreases damage by 70 and also does -70% hit

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/71388d6130735c3fc0df205093ccb35c.jpg


3.) The “Restore” Skill

As you can see, the restore skill has a 5 second cooldown, compared to the Enchantresses 3 second cooldown. This is a major issue in FFA scenarios due to the Enchantress being able to out heal, out damage & out debuff the Paladin. I’m not asking for the Paladin’s heal to be increased, all I’m asking is the cooldown is slightly less than 5 seconds, I feel it would be a huge difference maker on the Paladin being viable in 3v3 or 2v2 situations.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/cd88cbc082b4af314165135febcbc965.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/99e08cb07c2273bba305a04791cb1403.jpg


I feel like if the Restore cooldown was less than 5 seconds, the Critical Hit & the Holy Tempest hit debuff was buffed on the Paladin, it would be able to compete with the other classes. As of right now, the Paladin has zero chance versus any class in 1v1’s or teams in the Arena of Honor. These issues have been going on for quite some time now, and even players who do not play Paladin agree with me that it is WAY to weak for Honor PvP.

I hope to see the devs look into the statistics and see that some work with the class needs to be done in order to make it a viable class in 1v1’s and in team play, like all other classes are.

I don’t feel the class serves it’s purpose, and it keeps me and other players who want to play Paladin from playing honor with it.

Thank you for reading, any input and/or suggestions is also appreciated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FFA]

I definitely feel rhino in an honors stand point is nearly unusable... I am not a rhino main by any means, But if Cinco could figure a way out to fix how they are played in honor I think that would be a big step in the right direction for the class at endgame.

[Waug]

I think you forgot something, time to remind that, for a complete picture. An equation can never be matched until every bit taken into consideration, right?

1- Rhino can dash, that no other class can except another one called Fox, lets call these classes Dash-ers

A. Dashing is the skill that causes multiple bugs, the way it favors only the dash-ers, the reason no dash-er complain about those BUGS. NEVER EVER. Those bugs include -

i. Being un-targatable until the Dash-er comes back into action again.
ii. Teleport all the way through the map (as long as the radius of a map)

iii. Then there's this bug, that every dash-ers practice to exploit, that is teleporting back from obstacles, back from tree in forest or back from wall in CTF. When you dash back from obstacle, it makes you invisible and penetrate through the obstacle while dashing until you reach the destination.
Tell me this is not intentional? also tell me dash-ers don't practice this in ctf and forest all the time? not to mention, due to double dash foxes are even worst at these bugs.

B. Range is a huge factor in classic pl, and till to this date. Dash-ers breaks the classic range mechanics of pl the main reason, these two classes are the Disgrace to PL pvp. Not trying to be harsh to the players, I'm just criticizing the classes and it's system. Not even talking about the things that revolve around this either in 1v1 or in team play, the unexpected or the exploitative factors adds up to it, if I mention those points, this will get more lengthy.


2 - Paladins has high amount of self buff and also team buff. The self buff is pretty strong and good to tank while it last, no way you compare it with anything else only except a bear, even then you're sitting on those that bear don't have even in this point of discussion. Although bear is also in the edge, the extra armor of bear buff ( 200 armor) was provided earlier to balance this class in the Myth pvp in the past, which makes it not idle for honor. The amount a bear can tank while doing damage is unbalanced.

______________

Dashing should be nerfed in the first place and Fixed the bugs.
Earlier honor fox buff was UNJUSTIFIED.

[Absolize]

I think you forgot something, time to remind that, for a complete picture. An equation can never be matched until every bit taken into consideration, right?

1- Rhino can dash, that no other class can except another one called Fox, lets call these classes Dash-ers

A. Dashing is the skill that causes multiple bugs, the way it favors only the dash-ers, the reason no dash-er complain about those BUGS. NEVER EVER. Those bugs include -

i. Being un-targatable until the Dash-er comes back into action again.
ii. Teleport all the way through the map (as long as the radius of a map)

iii. Then there's this bug, that every dash-ers practice to exploit, that is teleporting back from obstacles, back from tree in forest or back from wall in CTF. When you dash back from obstacle, it makes you invisible and penetrate through the obstacle while dashing until you reach the destination.
Tell me this is not intentional? also tell me dash-ers don't practice this in ctf and forest all the time? not to mention, due to double dash foxes are even worst at these bugs.

B. Range is a huge factor in classic pl, and till to this date. Dash-ers breaks the classic range mechanics of pl the main reason, these two classes are the Disgrace to PL pvp. Not trying to be harsh to the players, I'm just criticizing the classes and it's system. Not even talking about the things that revolve around this either in 1v1 or in team play, the unexpected or the exploitative factors adds up to it, if I mention those points, this will get more lengthy.


2 - Paladins has high amount of self buff and also team buff. The self buff is pretty strong and good to tank while it last, no way you compare it with anything else only except a bear, even then you're sitting on those that bear don't have even in this point of discussion. Although bear is also in the edge, the extra armor of bear buff ( 200 armor) was provided earlier to balance this class in the Myth pvp in the past, which makes it not idle for honor. The amount a bear can tank while doing damage is unbalanced.

______________

Dashing should be nerfed in the first place and Fixed the bugs.
Earlier honor fox buff was UNJUSTIFIED.

The dash bug is not an exploit, unless other people know how to exploit it but I myself do not.

As for the other thing you have mentioned, I’m talking about the Paladin class not the other issues you have with the other classes mentioned. Mythical PvP stats are incredibly high so any of the suggestions I made here would not effect mythic pvp one bit, here’s why:

1.) The Holy Tempest is a debuff and no debuff works in mythical pvp considering no matter what you have over 100% hit.

2.) Adding more Crit to Rhino, every player in mythic no matter what class has insanely high Crit numbers, so adding some Crit to a Rhinos base stats will not make a difference.

As for the buffs, in FFA situations Rhino is still very squishy, and I know that from personal experience considering if I try to tank like a bear would I would be dead in 2 seconds even with healing debuffs.

Now for the dashing, you can always be targeted even if you do decide to dash away. However, Ranger has way better dashing ability then the Paladin does. Rangers can get out of any situation with ease, as for Paladin’s, if the enemy has me cornered I can not escape.

All in all, dashing is not overpowered. If it was, everyone would prefer Ranger over Archer and Paladin over Enchantress. That is not the case, so it’s not overpowered like you stated.

[Waug]

The third bug I mentioned, the one penetrate through wall / tree is practiced by players and used, doesn't matter you do or not but the class you talking about does.

And this the only thing that related with mythical cause there's no tree / wall in honor, everything else that I said in my post is totally about honor, I wasn't talking about myth at all, so what you bring things about myth is irrelevant.

Then if you want everything of bear, you can play bear instead even though as I said, bear "tank - damage" not balanced.

Although I didn't used the term OP for dashing, even if something op, not everyone chose to play with that, time tested fact from the past.

[Traj]

[emoji817] I have a 110 rhino and I have never even used it because of how useless the class is in honor, would love a change so I can finally use my rhino


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[XghostzX]

Despite being pretty inactive, I can confidently say that Hook is deeply invested in maining a Rhino and understands the mechanics and nuances of it better than most folks I know. That said, I do believe Rhinos are due for a buff, and the suggestions Hook outlined above are definitely viable and worth exploring.

[Doobienoobie(Wsrg)]

I don't pvp as much as these guys, but rhino definitely needs something in honor pvp.

Sent from my BE2012 using Tapatalk

[FFA]

The third bug I mentioned, the one penetrate through wall / tree is practiced by players and used, doesn't matter you do or not but the class you talking about does.

And this the only thing that related with mythical cause there's no tree / wall in honor, everything else that I said in my post is totally about honor, I wasn't talking about myth at all, so what you bring things about myth is irrelevant.

Then if you want everything of bear, you can play bear instead even though as I said, bear "tank - damage" not balanced.

Although I didn't used the term OP for dashing, even if something op, not everyone chose to play with that, time tested fact from the past.

You don't play pvp anymore, Let alone have a rhino as a main character for honor. How are you going to say it's over powered, when in fact it's the total opposite? I'm confused on everything you are saying aside from your personal feelings towards rhino and fox with no actual statistics saying how they are truly broken.

[Waug]

You don't play pvp anymore, Let alone have a rhino as a main character for honor. How are you going to say it's over powered, when in fact it's the total opposite? I'm confused on everything you are saying aside from your personal feelings towards rhino and fox with no actual statistics saying how they are truly broken.

"No actual statistics" - Read my og post please, that's full of facts, each word is logically crafted lol, and u don't find logic there, hmm

Sniper doesn't honor only in myth but that's ok.

Anyway I don't have feelings for dash-ers lol I pretty much sure I'm pretty much above of those type of feelings :p in general.

[IiRose]

I believe every class should have the capability to beat another class in 1v1 to some extent. In terms of the average player, mages beat bears in 1v1, bird beats mage in 1v1, bear beats bird in 1v1, and fox beats birds or mages in 1v1. However, even the best rhinos cannot 1v1 other classes and win reliably. The very few times they do is a result of a 5 minute long 1v1 where players are running buff and autoing because they ran out of mana.

I believe giving the rhino more crit in its damage buff and more reliable ranged debuffs would be useful in helping them have a chance at beating at least some of the other classes in 1v1. This buff would not impact mythic gameplay since the numbers are so high. Furthermore, it would not change the hybrid bear/mage role that paladin is supposed to fulfill in team fights, but simply enhance it in a balanced fashion. The rhino will still be useful with its ability to buff the damage of the team, debuff enemies, and revive allies from long ranges. The only difference now would be that a rhino can atleast do damage and sustain itself in a 1v1 duel, if isolated in a team setting.

Best,
IiRose

[Cinco]

I can totally see reducing Restore cooldown by 20% (from 5 to 4 seconds), and increasing the amount of Holy Tempest target debuff to match other class' similar debuffs.

My only issue is with your assumptions about Crit. The screen shots are way too compressed for me to see clearly - but I guess that you're only using min STR to equip the Honor stuff and then all the rest is INT? Give me more info about the stat allocation you're using please.

Thanks!

[Absolize]

I can totally see reducing Restore cooldown by 20% (from 5 to 4 seconds), and increasing the amount of Holy Tempest target debuff to match other class' similar debuffs.

My only issue is with your assumptions about Crit. The screen shots are way too compressed for me to see clearly - but I guess that you're only using min STR to equip the Honor stuff and then all the rest is INT? Give me more info about the stat allocation you're using please.

Thanks!

Certainly!

Yes, my honor preference is minimum STR needed and the rest int. With the vital force buff (being the crit buff) Rhino only has a low 36 crit, compared to Warrior (54 Crit), Archer (61 Crit), Ranger (60 Crit) and Enchantress (52 Crit).

This is why I feel Rhino’s critical hit should be increased, hope this helps!

[Cinco]

Certainly!

Yes, my honor preference is minimum STR needed and the rest int. With the vital force buff (being the crit buff) Rhino only has a low 36 crit, compared to Warrior (54 Crit), Archer (61 Crit), Ranger (60 Crit) and Enchantress (52 Crit).

This is why I feel Rhino’s critical hit should be increased, hope this helps!

It does and it doesn't - since you can get natural 60+ if you put more into STR.
So, this aspect will probably take a bit longer to assess (and might not happen since it's already an option).

[Absolize]

It does and it doesn't - since you can get natural 60+ if you put more into STR.
So, this aspect will probably take a bit longer to assess (and might not happen since it's already an option).

I’ve actually experimented pure str in honor before, and the issue with that is rhinos mana situation is pretty bad even if I’m 400 str rest int. So it’s really bad when I’m pure str by the time I’m finished with a single fight the mana is gone and my regen is not good either.

[Absolize]

It does and it doesn't - since you can get natural 60+ if you put more into STR.
So, this aspect will probably take a bit longer to assess (and might not happen since it's already an option).

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/c1eccfe8c44dd8c083aea6f90d43a89f.jpg

This is the result of pure str, it increased it by 2 putting it at 38 fully buffed which is still significantly lower than all of the competitors.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[IiRose]

I’ve actually experimented pure str in honor before, and the issue with that is rhinos mana situation is pretty bad even if I’m 400 str rest int. So it’s really bad when I’m pure str by the time I’m finished with a single fight the mana is gone and my regen is not good either.

This is because rhino cannot kill due to a lack in damage so the player usually has extremely long 1v1s and runs out of mana, resulting in the opponent eventually killing him. If meditate is included, you lose valuable damage in other skills. Additionally, meditate cannot keep up with the mana consumption of rhino skills.

[Cinco]

I’ve actually experimented pure str in honor before, and the issue with that is rhinos mana situation is pretty bad even if I’m 400 str rest int. So it’s really bad when I’m pure str by the time I’m finished with a single fight the mana is gone and my regen is not good either.

Indeed. This illustrates the tradeoff and the potential for alternative solutions such as: increasing the mana regen that Paladins can invoke via self-buff, addressing the mana cost for Paladin skills overall, or going to the basic statistic formula for Paladin that determines mana contribution from STR. Not saying these are better than just giving more crit to Vital Force... but they'll be part of the possible solution set :-)

[Cinco]

This is the result of pure str, it increased it by 2 putting it at 38 fully buffed which is still significantly lower than all of the competitors.

I see this:

240665

We're missing something. Thoughts?

[Absolize]

I see this:

240665

We're missing something. Thoughts?

So it looks like to me you are using the elite honor set, the information stated above is actually using the 100 honor sets. 100 honor is mostly what players are in, so I was primarily focusing on those stats.

[Cinco]

So it looks like to me you are using the elite honor set, the information stated above is actually using the 100 honor sets.

Yes! Awesome. Thanks!

[Absolize]

Yes! Awesome. Thanks!

Anytime, thank you! :)

[Waug]

I believe every class should have the capability to beat another class in 1v1 to some extent. In terms of the average player, mages beat bears in 1v1, bird beats mage in 1v1, bear beats bird in 1v1, and fox beats birds or mages in 1v1. However, even the best rhinos cannot 1v1 other classes and win reliably. The very few times they do is a result of a 5 minute long 1v1 where players are running buff and autoing because they ran out of mana.

I believe giving the rhino more crit in its damage buff and more reliable ranged debuffs would be useful in helping them have a chance at beating at least some of the other classes in 1v1. This buff would not impact mythic gameplay since the numbers are so high. Furthermore, it would not change the hybrid bear/mage role that paladin is supposed to fulfill in team fights, but simply enhance it in a balanced fashion. The rhino will still be useful with its ability to buff the damage of the team, debuff enemies, and revive allies from long ranges. The only difference now would be that a rhino can atleast do damage and sustain itself in a 1v1 duel, if isolated in a team setting.

Best,
IiRose

'In terms of the average player, mages beat bears in 1v1, bird beats mage in 1v1, bear beats bird in 1v1, and fox beats birds or mages in 1v1' in locked games I bet.

I'll start with fox, why? cause fox was the same dashing class "not viable" before buff similar like Rhino.
When it comes to fox they can run and run until opponent buff is over then it's just one shot kill, even though they got the extreme debuff to cripple the enemy. Rejoin after one kill but it's impossible to rejoin for the opponent. Exploitation at it's best. I'm coming to other things but let me tell something here-

The biggest competitive games in this planet give special power to specific champions cause they know players are very sporty so NONE will exploit anything so they don't release a patch each month to nerf the special powers, this is how things works in realty. This would be sarcasm at it's best.

I bet you know it pretty well Rose, what foxes can do and does in CTF honor, flag is easy with dashing, teleport from the wall, literally there's zero clue when fox will teleport through the wall and easily kill specific chosen opponent.
But I'm pretty sure this doesn't happen in Restoration locked inter guild games, cause there's player made rules are applied. It's different matter guildies lose interest slowly over time and now it's not enough to play locked games.

Fox in honor arena 3v3, running away from team until opponent engage and fox eazy attack from back, fox can get no effort easy kills by farming a class but then that opponent gets his bear and boom.

All these things clearly indicates Fox is class of 90% exploitation in honor pvp and was wrongly buffed. Honor CTF and Arena both 1v1 or 3v3.
Rhino buffs going to be similar, ruining the honor pvp even more. These kinda buffs just fueling the exploitation. Rather adjustment was needed first.

Anyway Fox and Rhino buffs are the last thing I'd like to see in pl and the exploitation with these buffs would fill the remaining portion of the container of exploitation to make it full for me.
Also I sometimes wish Restoration would survive outside of Locked games, at least some sort of courage was there.

From the original poster to the all 'locked game pvp-ers' who commented in this threa, hardly appear in honor, I don't know where did they test, it's obvious, in few locked games.
Well good luck with exploitative pvp.

[xfaringmage]

Paladins are already Op and always been in some caps defiantly this cap -70%hit on someone
just gonna ruin L100 honor especially what’s the reason for buffing a rhino as it’s only a 2 skill class it’s my question since I’m wondering by asking a friend -70% hit is hard but I’m not comparing I’ll stick with the update -70% hit is insanely out of my mind


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Waug]

Paladins are already Op and always been in some caps defiantly this cap -70%hit on someone
just gonna ruin L100 honor especially what’s the reason for buffing a rhino as it’s only a 2 skill class it’s my question since I’m wondering by asking a friend -70% hit is hard but I’m not comparing I’ll stick with the update -70% hit is insanely out of my mind


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"insanely out of my mind" - "just gonna ruin L100 honor"
These two phrases says it all.

Kinda like Myth was ruined slowly. The only supportive fact they have to back it up is that - These two are least used classes, that's fact and that's even after buffs. Cause they are wrongly buffed, not enjoyable overall. Just like in the myth players made rhino if they get rushed by a rhino and can't handle it, they switch to rhino that's it that's the only purpose mostly otherwise they play with other classes.

Summary : Wrongly buffed classes, not enjoyable in terms of it's performance overall, the exploitative portion is huge (Yet they're in a mood to fuel this exploitative part only)
And probably buffing of these classes will only stop once it can one hit kill every other class in PL I guess.

[MageFFA]

"insanely out of my mind" - "just gonna ruin L100 honor"
These two phrases says it all.

Kinda like Myth was ruined slowly. The only supportive fact they have to back it up is that - These two are least used classes, that's fact and that's even after buffs. Cause they are wrongly buffed, not enjoyable overall. Just like in the myth players made rhino if they get rushed by a rhino and can't handle it, they switch to rhino that's it that's the only purpose mostly otherwise they play with other classes.

Summary : Wrongly buffed classes, not enjoyable in terms of it's performance overall, the exploitative portion is huge (Yet they're in a mood to fuel this exploitative part only)
And probably buffing of these classes will only stop once it can one hit kill every other class in PL I guess.

Ah yes. Let's blow off the fact that the caps in recent memory doesn't have a damage to armor ratio problem, hit being in the high 100s, for some classes 200! Set heals that favor healers, especially if you have a super high health pool. Critical being in the high 100s, and hit that's so high that debuffs are irrelevant.

For such a OP class they don't seem to be doing that well in 22, 30-35, 71-76, and 105-110 honor. I wonder why's that. Let's nerf rhino but not the class that can crit you for your entire health pool, WITH A SINGLE SKILL, in every other PvP level. Pray that 115 cap doesn't have honor set where the Hit is above 170, though I'd doubt you'd complain about mages destroying PvP considering you havent even mentioned how broken mages were in 80, 85, and 105. You've always been biased against the newer classes.

[Waug]

Although it's pointless as none had answer of any of my points that I raised pretty clearly, none, neither Dev, neither hook nor anyone who commented here, and not even you.

But I hv answers for all your false accusations and queries just like I had answer for everyone's point here, next time when I get time I'll answer all of that.

Edit -

Ah yes. Let's blow off the fact that the caps in recent memory doesn't have a damage to armor ratio problem, hit being in the high 100s, for some classes 200! Set heals that favor healers, especially if you have a super high health pool. Critical being in the high 100s, and hit that's so high that debuffs are irrelevant.
It's honor discussion and who said myth pvp is idle with no problem, I several times in the past made thread about that and you way in depth that how things are messed.
Crit is a chance of critical damage of either happening or not, it's not the way you think, pretty common misconception I notice anyway.


For such a OP class they don't seem to be doing that well in 22, 30-35, 71-76, and 105-110 honor. I wonder why's that. Let's nerf rhino but not the class that can crit you for your entire health pool, WITH A SINGLE SKILL, in every other PvP level. Pray that 115 cap doesn't have honor set where the Hit is above 170, though I'd doubt you'd complain about mages destroying PvP considering you havent even mentioned how broken mages were in 80, 85, and 105. You've always been biased against the newer classes.

When it was required you brought Myth here, but then cleverly suddenly deviate from rhino - myth situation here, why? cause it took you exception amount of time to indirectly accept that rhino OP in endgame main stream? You would never agree on this.

The whole point is honor 110 rhino, you bring myth at first and then Low level, why? cause not enough point for you to type?

I don't need to pray for what happening with 115 cap, since as I already stated, there's pretty small chance I'm going to suggest balance since as already it been shown that even though they've got no answer the point that I raised, They don't care about valid points and pvp community? there's hardly anything left other than exploiters.

Again I don't need blind to kill honor mages, never did, so pretty much nice assumption there like the play style of average typical bird.


L80 mage is the time when the class that should be doing the least dodge was doing 7-8 out of 10 doges. A hit without dodge itself was getting cap, the mother of all pvp dis balance, you talked about some.

Anyway as I said I don't care anymore about things are being buffed in honor or anything, you can go ahead and ask for more buffs, like rhino can't one hit kill bear, so buff it like another 5 buff already, I'm not going to try to stop, but that not going to stop me from saying these classes are used as skill less.

Someone was saying "best rhino" in this thread somewhere, yes best boosted rhino, most of his kills were generated during the gun arrival, gun + rhino farm on thoose who didn't buy gun at that time.
How hypocritical they don't complain about guns back then like it was pretty balance things over non gun.

Skill less pvp-ers keep going, there's nothing left anyway.

[MageFFA]

Although it's pointless as none had answer of any of my points that I raised pretty clearly, none, neither Dev, neither hook nor anyone who commented here, and not even you.

But I hv answers for all your false accusations and queries just like I had answer for everyone's point here, next time when I get time I'll answer all of that.

Edit -

It's honor discussion and who said myth pvp is idle with no problem, I several times in the past made thread about that and you way in depth that how things are messed.
Crit is a chance of critical damage of either happening or not, it's not the way you think, pretty common misconception I notice anyway.



When it was required you brought Myth here, but then cleverly suddenly deviate from rhino - myth situation here, why? cause it took you exception amount of time to indirectly accept that rhino OP in endgame main stream? You would never agree on this.

The whole point is honor 110 rhino, you bring myth at first and then Low level, why? cause not enough point for you to type?

I don't need to pray for what happening with 115 cap, since as I already stated, there's pretty small chance I'm going to suggest balance since as already it been shown that even though they've got no answer the point that I raised, They don't care about valid points and pvp community? there's hardly anything left other than exploiters.

Again I don't need blind to kill honor mages, never did, so pretty much nice assumption there like the play style of average typical bird.


L80 mage is the time when the class that should be doing the least dodge was doing 7-8 out of 10 doges. A hit without dodge itself was getting cap, the mother of all pvp dis balance, you talked about some.

Anyway as I said I don't care anymore about things are being buffed in honor or anything, you can go ahead and ask for more buffs, like rhino can't one hit kill bear, so buff it like another 5 buff already, I'm not going to try to stop, but that not going to stop me from saying these classes are used as skill less.

Someone was saying "best rhino" in this thread somewhere, yes best boosted rhino, most of his kills were generated during the gun arrival, gun + rhino farm on thoose who didn't buy gun at that time.
How hypocritical they don't complain about guns back then like it was pretty balance things over non gun.

Skill less pvp-ers keep going, there's nothing left anyway.

1) Every point you make I address. It's not my fault you continue to not listen. We've been at this since 100 cap and you are still spouting the same nonsense despite the class getting 2 major nerfs that not only hurt them in endgame but also KILLED THEM in twink. How about you address the points I bring up that disputes your claims for a change.

2) We already know Mythic has its problems, but that never stops you from contributing the issues of it with rhino. Not only is rhino not currently the best class to use, that's OPS bird, but when the cap came out it still wasn't the best. Mages were the strongest with int that's to set heals on top of being overly tanky. Rhinos took 3rd place behind archer who could beat them 7/10 times. It wasn't until people complained did Cinco seemly crank the damage output x9000 did we get in our current state, OPS included. So where exactly is this a rhino issue?

3) I did not deviate from anything. You just can't comprehend that everytime you try or successfully get rhinos nerfed you're condemning rhinos in twink also. That stunt you pulled in 100 cap is responsible for rhino dying out completely in twink when they were already at a disadvantage. All for what exactly? A measly 150 damage on axe that enabled them to be capable of getting kills? If rhinos were actually broken we could of just nerfed the set instead of the class.

Yet that begs the question of whether or not 100 rhino was even broken in the first place.

4) I bring them all up because they correlate together. You and Jen and any other person screaming nerf rhino want to see the class dismantled overall. Not just in endgame. My points still stand regardless, I've explained what the issues are with rhino in all the caps you complained about. 100, 105, and now 110. None of which are rhino problems but set problems

How can you sit here and says mages were broken in 80 because of dodge being so high, making it a set problem even tho it definitely wasn't, yet not show the same energy for rhino when it's 100% a set problem? Rhinos did not receive a single buff that im aware of in 85 cap so how all of a sudden they became broken? How did they go from being trash in 85 to "OP" in 100, to even more "OP" in 105 and 110? What phantom buffs did rhino receive? We know why foxes are op, they literally received a 25% damage buff.

I've disproved everything that you claim in the past yet you are still here not addressing them. Check my posts or any old thread regarding rhino and you'll see each and every one.

5) Exploiters like yourself who exploited 105 cap mage which was actually the most broken class to use? Like that? Exploiters that used hawkens mage which was unkillable unless you ran out the proc? Bow mage which you used to farm birds because they couldn't do anything against the lava proc? Staff mage which infinitely CCd your enemy? Those exploits you mean? Are we forgetting hawkens mage could 10-0 a hawkens rhino? That staff and bow mage could 10-0 a str rhino? Are those the exploits you mean? How many times were you on your bird in 105 cap? Like at best 15?

6) I've seen you struggle to win vs mages with blind in use so I'm not giving that point any attention.

7) So 80 cap is a set problem but 100-110 rhino isn't? Makes sense. Let's also not forget on top of dodge that mages were overly tanky, did far more damage than any other class, crit more often than even bird, and could use any attribute and dominate with it. That almost seems like that's what the class does regardless of level innit? They do the same thing in 15, 20, 22, 27, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 51, 56, 61, 66, 76, 105, and in the early days of 110.

What class dominated 77? We already went over 80. What class dominated 85? 105? Early 110 before damage changes?

8) Since this argument is on 110 honor. Hooks suggestion for rhino change isn't making them op. They still can't replace mages as a support even after the buff. They are better now in 1v1s then what they use to be. Rhinos are skilless? You've never even touched the class. Mages can still land a wack 300-400 crit on somebody in honor Arena when the health pool is only 500, albeit not as common as they do in twink honor it still finds a way to happen.

[Waug]

1) Every point you make I address

Really? So where's the counter point of this -(My very first post in this thread, that none had ansers "I think you forgot something, time to remind that, for a complete picture. An equation can never be matched until every bit taken into consideration, right?

1- Rhino can dash, that no other class can except another one called Fox, lets call these classes Dash-ers

A. Dashing is the skill that causes multiple bugs, the way it favors only the dash-ers, the reason no dash-er complain about those BUGS. NEVER EVER. Those bugs include -

i. Being un-targatable until the Dash-er comes back into action again.
ii. Teleport all the way through the map (as long as the radius of a map)

iii. Then there's this bug, that every dash-ers practice to exploit, that is teleporting back from obstacles, back from tree in forest or back from wall in CTF. When you dash back from obstacle, it makes you invisible and penetrate through the obstacle while dashing until you reach the destination.
Tell me this is not intentional? also tell me dash-ers don't practice this in ctf and forest all the time? not to mention, due to double dash foxes are even worst at these bugs.

B. Range is a huge factor in classic pl, and till to this date. Dash-ers breaks the classic range mechanics of pl the main reason, these two classes are the Disgrace to PL pvp. Not trying to be harsh to the players, I'm just criticizing the classes and it's system. Not even talking about the things that revolve around this either in 1v1 or in team play, the unexpected or the exploitative factors adds up to it, if I mention those points, this will get more lengthy.


2 - Paladins has high amount of self buff and also team buff. The self buff is pretty strong and good to tank while it last, no way you compare it with anything else only except a bear, even then you're sitting on those that bear don't have even in this point of discussion. Although bear is also in the edge, the extra armor of bear buff ( 200 armor) was provided earlier to balance this class in the Myth pvp in the past, which makes it not idle for honor. The amount a bear can tank while doing damage is unbalanced."


It's not my fault you continue to not listen. We've been at this since 100 cap and you are still spouting the same nonsense despite the class getting 2 major nerfs that not only hurt them in endgame but also KILLED THEM in twink. How about you address the points I bring up that disputes your claims for a change.
Not listen? I've replied and provided valid points against yours, just like this one I'm replying each portion, maybe you just don't bother to listen, and when this class was nerfed? I can recall few buffs.


2) We already know Mythic has its problems, but that never stops you from contributing the issues of it with rhino. Not only is rhino not currently the best class to use, that's OPS bird, but when the cap came out it still wasn't the best. Mages were the strongest with int that's to set heals on top of being overly tanky. Rhinos took 3rd place behind archer who could beat them 7/10 times. It wasn't until people complained did Cinco seemly crank the damage output x9000 did we get in our current state, OPS included. So where exactly is this a rhino issue?
Where do you get this imaginary points dude? Do you really endgame pvp or just speculate? Someone saying mage OP in this cap, never heard of, the real ground level pvp makes you hear just all sort of odd statements but this odd? seriously, just to make you post long? In this whole thread it's you who bringing myth -rhino situation not me, in the past I've talked about several issues INCLUDING rhino, this thread it's you keep bringing that for nothing.


3) I did not deviate from anything. You just can't comprehend that everytime you try or successfully get rhinos nerfed you're condemning rhinos in twink also. That stunt you pulled in 100 cap is responsible for rhino dying out completely in twink when they were already at a disadvantage. All for what exactly? A measly 150 damage on axe that enabled them to be capable of getting kills? If rhinos were actually broken we could of just nerfed the set instead of the class.
When The class was nerfed? I can recall several buffs. Again the if scenario, like if Rhino is TP-ing from different side of the map then ok propose to nerf it's damage? makes sense?

Yet that begs the question of whether or not 100 rhino was even broken in the first place.


4) I bring them all up because they correlate together. You and Jen and any other person screaming nerf rhino want to see the class dismantled overall. Not just in endgame. My points still stand regardless, I've explained what the issues are with rhino in all the caps you complained about. 100, 105, and now 110. None of which are rhino problems but set problems As already said, if it's TP behind from the wall then nerf it's set, The exact you can't / deny the reality that once these things are curved, we actually could buff the class in a good way, the thing I told many times in the past.


How can you sit here and says mages were broken in 80 because of dodge being so high, making it a set problem even tho it definitely wasn't, yet not show the same energy for rhino when it's 100% a set problem? Rhinos did not receive a single buff that im aware of in 85 cap so how all of a sudden they became broken? How did they go from being trash in 85 to "OP" in 100, to even more "OP" in 105 and 110? What phantom buffs did rhino receive? We know why foxes are op, they literally received a 25% damage buff. Literally I don't know why I'm bothering to reply again and again who has zero clue what exactly happened, you just stating some assumptions here. clear assumptions, neither you were there doing ground level pvp in endgame there neither current time when you have much practical experience on ground level situation. I don't want to sound harsh but I don't know how to put these facts.

Dodge cap was reduced and that's still in effect in every field of pvp (Myth / honor) although proposal was bit different and that not to nerf mages to reduce dodges, dodge was meant to reduce from everywhere, proportionately accordingly classes accordingly classic PL. Imagine, if you don't mind stating some speculation fact about current pvp, I don't even expect a small amount of knowledge about these matter at that time.


I've disproved everything that you claim in the past yet you are still here not addressing them. Check my posts or any old thread regarding rhino and you'll see each and every one. You don't remember how I did provide counter points against your each time exactly like this? the difference is that, you just don't properly answer mine, more accurately there's no counter point for you.


5) Exploiters like yourself who exploited 105 cap mage which was actually the most broken class to use? Like that? Exploiters that used hawkens mage which was unkillable unless you ran out the proc? Bow mage which you used to farm birds because they couldn't do anything against the lava proc? Staff mage which infinitely CCd your enemy? Those exploits you mean? Are we forgetting hawkens mage could 10-0 a hawkens rhino? That staff and bow mage could 10-0 a str rhino? Are those the exploits you mean? How many times were you on your bird in 105 cap? Like at best 15?

Just like child arguments, "hey you called a class exploiter, ok I'll call you exploiter". What is exploitation? I used mage, when it was never called OP by ground level pvpers, or calling exploitation that, A class TP behind from wall / tree each time, RJ but doesn't let other's RJ due to it's dashing and more. Seriously, fake accusations from you side. I never called you exploiter, I called em who used those classes that way, anway, I hardly care about such bogus accusations. Look at ur logic, I used bow mage and why that that was exploitation against bow bird, cause My bow was equiped with proc. What kinda logic is this, the bow of enemy bird didn't have proc. Even your logic is clueless.


6) I've seen you struggle to win vs mages with blind in use so I'm not giving that point any attention. Strange I don't see you in endgame, yet watch me to fight so carefully.


7) So 80 cap is a set problem but 100-110 rhino isn't? Makes sense. Let's also not forget on top of dodge that mages were overly tanky, did far more damage than any other class, crit more often than even bird, and could use any attribute and dominate with it. That almost seems like that's what the class does regardless of level innit? They do the same thing in 15, 20, 22, 27, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 51, 56, 61, 66, 76, 105, and in the early days of 110. Again the assumption of set issues, It's clear you don't read anything my argue over rhino, like ever?


What class dominated 77? We already went over 80. What class dominated 85? 105? Early 110 before damage changes?

8) Since this argument is on 110 honor. Hooks suggestion for rhino change isn't making them op. They still can't replace mages as a support even after the buff. They are better now in 1v1s then what they use to be. Rhinos are skilless? You've never even touched the class. Mages can still land a wack 300-400 crit on somebody in honor Arena when the health pool is only 500, albeit not as common as they do in twink honor it still finds a way to happen.

Finally a point about honor, there's a huge difference between posting long post and making the post logical. Anyway, Mages can't dash, mages can't enter in range suddenly, mages can't rejoin without forcing other's not to rejoin, Mages don't have that high team buff, mages can't do such high level tanking and so on.
You point is Rhino can't nuke like mage - Give it damage, Rhino can't tanlk like bear - make it more tanky, Rhino can't fast kill like bird - so give it more damage I mean if rhino can't do everything actually more than everthing - it's weak.

[MageFFA]

Really? So where's the counter point of this -(My very first post in this thread, that none had ansers "I think you forgot something, time to remind that, for a complete picture. An equation can never be matched until every bit taken into consideration, right?

1- Rhino can dash, that no other class can except another one called Fox, lets call these classes Dash-ers

A. Dashing is the skill that causes multiple bugs, the way it favors only the dash-ers, the reason no dash-er complain about those BUGS. NEVER EVER. Those bugs include -

i. Being un-targatable until the Dash-er comes back into action again.
ii. Teleport all the way through the map (as long as the radius of a map)

iii. Then there's this bug, that every dash-ers practice to exploit, that is teleporting back from obstacles, back from tree in forest or back from wall in CTF. When you dash back from obstacle, it makes you invisible and penetrate through the obstacle while dashing until you reach the destination.
Tell me this is not intentional? also tell me dash-ers don't practice this in ctf and forest all the time? not to mention, due to double dash foxes are even worst at these bugs.

B. Range is a huge factor in classic pl, and till to this date. Dash-ers breaks the classic range mechanics of pl the main reason, these two classes are the Disgrace to PL pvp. Not trying to be harsh to the players, I'm just criticizing the classes and it's system. Not even talking about the things that revolve around this either in 1v1 or in team play, the unexpected or the exploitative factors adds up to it, if I mention those points, this will get more lengthy.


2 - Paladins has high amount of self buff and also team buff. The self buff is pretty strong and good to tank while it last, no way you compare it with anything else only except a bear, even then you're sitting on those that bear don't have even in this point of discussion. Although bear is also in the edge, the extra armor of bear buff ( 200 armor) was provided earlier to balance this class in the Myth pvp in the past, which makes it not idle for honor. The amount a bear can tank while doing damage is unbalanced."


Not listen? I've replied and provided valid points against yours, just like this one I'm replying each portion, maybe you just don't bother to listen, and when this class was nerfed? I can recall few buffs.


Where do you get this imaginary points dude? Do you really endgame pvp or just speculate? Someone saying mage OP in this cap, never heard of, the real ground level pvp makes you hear just all sort of odd statements but this odd? seriously, just to make you post long? In this whole thread it's you who bringing myth -rhino situation not me, in the past I've talked about several issues INCLUDING rhino, this thread it's you keep bringing that for nothing.


When The class was nerfed? I can recall several buffs. Again the if scenario, like if Rhino is TP-ing from different side of the map then ok propose to nerf it's damage? makes sense?

Yet that begs the question of whether or not 100 rhino was even broken in the first place.

As already said, if it's TP behind from the wall then nerf it's set, The exact you can't / deny the reality that once these things are curved, we actually could buff the class in a good way, the thing I told many times in the past.

Literally I don't know why I'm bothering to reply again and again who has zero clue what exactly happened, you just stating some assumptions here. clear assumptions, neither you were there doing ground level pvp in endgame there neither current time when you have much practical experience on ground level situation. I don't want to sound harsh but I don't know how to put these facts.

Dodge cap was reduced and that's still in effect in every field of pvp (Myth / honor) although proposal was bit different and that not to nerf mages to reduce dodges, dodge was meant to reduce from everywhere, proportionately accordingly classes accordingly classic PL. Imagine, if you don't mind stating some speculation fact about current pvp, I don't even expect a small amount of knowledge about these matter at that time.

You don't remember how I did provide counter points against your each time exactly like this? the difference is that, you just don't properly answer mine, more accurately there's no counter point for you.



Just like child arguments, "hey you called a class exploiter, ok I'll call you exploiter". What is exploitation? I used mage, when it was never called OP by ground level pvpers, or calling exploitation that, A class TP behind from wall / tree each time, RJ but doesn't let other's RJ due to it's dashing and more. Seriously, fake accusations from you side. I never called you exploiter, I called em who used those classes that way, anway, I hardly care about such bogus accusations. Look at ur logic, I used bow mage and why that that was exploitation against bow bird, cause My bow was equiped with proc. What kinda logic is this, the bow of enemy bird didn't have proc. Even your logic is clueless.

Strange I don't see you in endgame, yet watch me to fight so carefully.

Again the assumption of set issues, It's clear you don't read anything my argue over rhino, like ever?



Finally a point about honor, there's a huge difference between posting long post and making the post logical. Anyway, Mages can't dash, mages can't enter in range suddenly, mages can't rejoin without forcing other's not to rejoin, Mages don't have that high team buff, mages can't do such high level tanking and so on.
You point is Rhino can't nuke like mage - Give it damage, Rhino can't tanlk like bear - make it more tanky, Rhino can't fast kill like bird - so give it more damage I mean if rhino can't do everything actually more than everthing - it's weak.

Are you serious? Please show me a single patch that shows a buff towards rhino in the last couple years other than the one that happened recently because of this thread? 105 cap was a 15% damage reduction towards the skill Redemption, I would know because Jen got the class nerfed in rage after I knocked her out of the tourney. The class was previously nerfed in 100 cap also. All you'd need to do is search the forums to see them.

You have never made any counter points to my arguments so don't act as if you have. Let's talk about the argument that you're making now, regarding the bug on dashes/charge. This was never a point you made before so don't try to spin this too.

I've been playing rhino since it first launched. I've put the class on Leadersboard 3 times in zones where they couldn't compete, level 30 x2 and level 61. No one and I mean no one has the same knowledge of the class as me. Not once in my many many many years have I ever known or seen that the rhino teleportation bug can be used at a whim. My knowledge on the bug was always that it happened at random or when you're respawning/reviving while they are dashing. Not only have I've been complaining about this issue for as long as I can remember but I also brought this point up in a thread regarding rhino in 105, about what needs to change for the class.

You say people are practicing the teleportation glitch? I don't even know how to do it. I doubt hook does, or luis or Nae. All of us are OG LB rhino players. Never in my time playing this game have I seen nae or Luis use this glitch intentionally in 20. I've never seen visiting use it intentionally in 76. Never seen marinespride use it in 71. So who's practicing it? Let me know because I want to see it for myself.

Now if you're complaining about rhinos and foxes being able to dash behind trees/walls or dash/charge by targeting a enemy player then that's a different subjection, and quite honestly I don't think anyone truly cares that much. It's been part of their gameplay since the start. Foxes can be easily CCd by nearly every class and rhinos will just reset the fight. What's the difference between those 2 and a bear just simply beck stomping you a mile away to run buff? A mage landing frost to run until his ms is back? Every class can exploit something similar to what you're complaining about. Yet you single out the 2 dashes alone because you refuse to adapt it seems like. If a fox or rhino runs from me do you know what I'd do? I'll just back off and reset for the engagement again. If a bear beck stomped me away from him do you know what I'd do? Reset. If a bird repulsed me started running for his buffs and healing guess what. I'm not gonna chase. How hard is it to play with competence. This is PvP if you can't handle dirty tricks like that then just stop playing. If this was 15-19 you'd be complaining even harder towards mages since they do it also.

Even if we kept everything I said above as a convo then it's irrelevant. It's mythic PvP. Debuffs are meaningless and the damage output is beyond unreasonable. The way you'd normally fight against another class doesn't work here. It's either deal enough damage to 3 shot your enemy or die. Before you come here talking about fixing rhino how about we fix mythic first then see what the issues are afterwards.

Your last point is absurd. That measly team buff means nothing. Mage and bird have not lost a single 2v2 tourney yet. Mage bird and bear are still the best trio to use. Mage and rhino isn't even a comparison because even though rhino has 2 team buffs it still can't support as good as mage. The additional 34 damage means nothing if the enemy focuses down your carry leaving you without anyone to deal damage to utilize the buff in the first place.

Mages don't need a dash. They don't need a team buff, and neither do they need to tank. Mages have the highest amount of skill damage for a skill then any other class. From one of my tests Cam and I did we became aware that they have more base damage on L1 frost than a bear does with 6 stomp, without any items. Their drain is over 100 points more than the second strongest skill if we were only taking 1 skill from each class in game, that would leave foxes needles as second place under drain. Their critical chance is a little under birds, mind you archer is supposed to be the main critical class, but if you were to account the fact that mages have a damage buff then they will crit far more often and much much much harder. No other class in this game can hit past 350-400 critical on a single skill. The most I've ever seen a bird land is a little over 280 and that was with break and shatter.

The only reason mages aren't killing 110 honor like they do 30-40 is because 70% hit reduction skills exist and armor buffs are much stronger. Oh and I doubt you ever took the time to notice but rhino also has less base HP compared to mage. Even with the str points added to be able to use honor sets it'll still be closer to mages hp pool then bear.

[Waug]

Are you serious? Please show me a single patch that shows a buff towards rhino in the last couple years other than the one that happened recently because of this thread? 105 cap was a 15% damage reduction towards the skill Redemption, I would know because Jen got the class nerfed in rage after I knocked her out of the tourney. The class was previously nerfed in 100 cap also. All you'd need to do is search the forums to see them.

You have never made any counter points to my arguments so don't act as if you have. Let's talk about the argument that you're making now, regarding the bug on dashes/charge. This was never a point you made before so don't try to spin this too.

I've been playing rhino since it first launched. I've put the class on Leadersboard 3 times in zones where they couldn't compete, level 30 x2 and level 61. No one and I mean no one has the same knowledge of the class as me. Not once in my many many many years have I ever known or seen that the rhino teleportation bug can be used at a whim. My knowledge on the bug was always that it happened at random or when you're respawning/reviving while they are dashing. Not only have I've been complaining about this issue for as long as I can remember but I also brought this point up in a thread regarding rhino in 105, about what needs to change for the class.

You say people are practicing the teleportation glitch? I don't even know how to do it. I doubt hook does, or luis or Nae. All of us are OG LB rhino players. Never in my time playing this game have I seen nae or Luis use this glitch intentionally in 20. I've never seen visiting use it intentionally in 76. Never seen marinespride use it in 71. So who's practicing it? Let me know because I want to see it for myself.

Now if you're complaining about rhinos and foxes being able to dash behind trees/walls or dash/charge by targeting a enemy player then that's a different subjection, and quite honestly I don't think anyone truly cares that much. It's been part of their gameplay since the start. Foxes can be easily CCd by nearly every class and rhinos will just reset the fight. What's the difference between those 2 and a bear just simply beck stomping you a mile away to run buff? A mage landing frost to run until his ms is back? Every class can exploit something similar to what you're complaining about. Yet you single out the 2 dashes alone because you refuse to adapt it seems like. If a fox or rhino runs from me do you know what I'd do? I'll just back off and reset for the engagement again. If a bear beck stomped me away from him do you know what I'd do? Reset. If a bird repulsed me started running for his buffs and healing guess what. I'm not gonna chase. How hard is it to play with competence. This is PvP if you can't handle dirty tricks like that then just stop playing. If this was 15-19 you'd be complaining even harder towards mages since they do it also.

Even if we kept everything I said above as a convo then it's irrelevant. It's mythic PvP. Debuffs are meaningless and the damage output is beyond unreasonable. The way you'd normally fight against another class doesn't work here. It's either deal enough damage to 3 shot your enemy or die. Before you come here talking about fixing rhino how about we fix mythic first then see what the issues are afterwards.

Your last point is absurd. That measly team buff means nothing. Mage and bird have not lost a single 2v2 tourney yet. Mage bird and bear are still the best trio to use. Mage and rhino isn't even a comparison because even though rhino has 2 team buffs it still can't support as good as mage. The additional 34 damage means nothing if the enemy focuses down your carry leaving you without anyone to deal damage to utilize the buff in the first place.

Mages don't need a dash. They don't need a team buff, and neither do they need to tank. Mages have the highest amount of skill damage for a skill then any other class. From one of my tests Cam and I did we became aware that they have more base damage on L1 frost than a bear does with 6 stomp, without any items. Their drain is over 100 points more than the second strongest skill if we were only taking 1 skill from each class in game, that would leave foxes needles as second place under drain. Their critical chance is a little under birds, mind you archer is supposed to be the main critical class, but if you were to account the fact that mages have a damage buff then they will crit far more often and much much much harder. No other class in this game can hit past 350-400 critical on a single skill. The most I've ever seen a bird land is a little over 280 and that was with break and shatter.

The only reason mages aren't killing 110 honor like they do 30-40 is because 70% hit reduction skills exist and armor buffs are much stronger. Oh and I doubt you ever took the time to notice but rhino also has less base HP compared to mage. Even with the str points added to be able to use honor sets it'll still be closer to mages hp pool then bear.

I didn't make a counter point - You, this shows how ignorant you are to read my points, that also proves how worthless it is to discuss, cause you've no intention to do valid discussion rather some kinda "rage post"?
You don't see these classes wall tp, this alone question your modesty or your experience in endgame, which is correct? if regular rhinos doing it, then how how so called "LB" rhinos don't have any clue. Again if smething doesn't even exist, what is your problem it being fixed? whats the catch here?

The OP demand here rhino buff based on honor, their whole point and whole supporting points from all the supporters here. Rhino can't run until opponents buff is over? and then attack when buff is over? how powerful buff is in honor, it's just a kill without zero defense, literally zero defense for some classes. So called LB rhino doesn't know these, do you have smallest amount of courage to accept these things? also add rejoin factor that extremely common in honor in Ground level pvp not in hypothetical and arranged "friendly" pvp.

This rhino buff is unjustified instead of going through valid points that just showed how forum isn't a place for logical discussion anymore, this is one way game now, that I already stated.
You can deny and try your level best to hide the exploitative part of rhino and these classes and try to boost the other part as much as possible, rather modest approach would be to accept everything and act accordingly.

[Congeniality]

If crit is scaled based on what the base damage would be, then I don't think a crit buff for Paladin would be crazy (since I think paladin base damage is relatively low). Again, promising to see the developers are open to it.

[Waug]

@MageFFA There's no answer as expected
There's no answer from anyone anyway!

[MageFFA]

@MageFFA There's no answer as expected
There's no answer from anyone anyway!

I stopped replying because you never addressed any arguments I made, as you always do, and base your arguments off of emotion instead of logic. I've explained more times than I needed on the issues for 100, 105, and now 110 cap that you continued to ignore. You're now bringing up glitches that we've complained about for the last 6 or so years, but with a twist since you're now saying people can do it intentionally when the top rhino players such as myself have no knowledge of it? Yeah this argument is over.