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View Full Version : Developers please take a step back and look at the big picture...



Dakkine
04-19-2010, 01:56 PM
I've played and supported this game literally from the hour of its release, but im starting to get a little annoyed...

So with the newest update daggers (speed 1.0) are now slower than 1H swords (speed 0.9) and crossbows are WAY too fast.

We know you've been trying to balance out base damage and DPS among other things. By trying to balance things you're beginning to offset some others. Take a deep breath and look at the big picture here, a dagger should be faster than a sword... period. You guys are doing a great job trying to make everyone happy but I know you all are smart enough to figure this stuff out on your own. Put off visiting the board for two weeks and sit down really look over the game for yourself.

The problem is your trying to fix something through the wrong means. The weapons were balanced perfectly from the start. The attribute system was a little quirky but getting better. To further balance out the classes you can't start changing all the weapons because thats not the origin of the problem.

The issue lies in that 3 attributes are not enough to create a natural equilibrium in the game stats. There are 10 stats that are determined by only 3 attributes, there is not enough data spread which means the reliance upon numbers to create a smooth transition between classes is impossible.

its all from simple statistics as well as any theorem or test in any scientific field...

You must have a minimum required set (attribute points) for the amount of data(character stats) to ensure the validity of the results (balance of the classes)

I created a very detailed post (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?373-WAR-gt-PAL-Thief...-other-ideas...) a while ago about additional stats, theres really no way around it.

Synozeer
04-19-2010, 02:04 PM
Totally agree. As a matter of fact, I just posted about the dagger issue before reading this post:

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?627-My-dagger-bear...

I think a lot of the changes in the latest content update were in the right direction, but several caused new issues.

Shebee
04-19-2010, 02:11 PM
I totally agree the problem being the attributes.
I
why not have health come from a own attribute instead?
Make another stat that affects hit and crit rating and let str and dex be the dps stats for warriors and archers for example.
I think the attributes require a complete revamp.

darrensmith016
04-19-2010, 02:39 PM
im sure it will all get sorted in time, the games only been out for a month or so.. give them a chance

Justg
04-19-2010, 02:46 PM
Live for 11 days on the iPhone, but who's counting?

Seriously, love to hear yall's thoughts... keep it up.

Dakkine
04-19-2010, 02:49 PM
Things just starting to over complicated when it should be very simple...

Look at everything realistically...

First, figure out the increasing order of speed for all the weapons, then create a reasonable scale to fit all the weapons into and determine their speed. The general weps for each class should all have a speed of about 1.0 (make this 1 attack per second). This means the 1H sword, bow, and fireblaster should each be within 0.9-1.1. Then each class should have the faster weps like dagger, rapier or scimitar, and wand that have decreased damage, but speed of 1.4-1.8 (again, this is attack/second). Save attack speeds of 2.0+ for the fancy loot of these items with the same damage. Next each class should have the slower more powerful weps (2H swords, crossbows, staffs, etc...) with an attack rate of 0.4-0.7.

You then have the weapons that are more advanced... auto-crossbows, simply give them a very small increase in damage from their non-auto equivalent and speed maybe 0.1-0.2 slower than a bow of similar level. Do the same for corresponding weps of different classes.

Damage should be done in the same manner, set a reasonable scale and use it.

eg., damage ratio for dagger : 1H sword : axe : 2H sword
0.6 : 1.0 : 1.2 : 1.6

Use this scale to find a mid-point base damage, then give 1H swords a range of damage of +/- 30%, daggers a range of +/- 16%, axe's range of 34%, and 2H's a range of 38%

For every 5 levels decrease the damage range percent by 10% ----> 27%, 14.4%, 30.6%, 34.2%... This keeps you from ending up with a weapon doing 350 - 650 damage in the long run...

from here you can finally look at how the stats react to this realistic setup and adjust accordingly. Thanks for reading

darrensmith016
04-19-2010, 02:52 PM
Live for 11 days on the iPhone, but who's counting?

Seriously, love to hear yall's thoughts... keep it up.

aha! 11 days. on my calender!

Shebee
04-19-2010, 03:06 PM
Id likenthe whole attribute thing to be revamped completely, in its current form therw is always that "aah but if its like that then the other thing doesnt work".

This is an idea i just came up with.
Dex for archer dmg
Str for warrior dmg
Int for enchantreas dmg
Hp for well, health

and give armor dmg stat requirements combined with lower hp requirements.
Pure dmg would be stacking the dmg stat wih some hp to use low lvl armor for minot stat buffs, dmg along with survivability would be the normal way, this would also support pvp in the future.
Just an idea.

Dakkine
04-19-2010, 03:07 PM
It also might not hurt to give all characters a skill reset in the event new attributes were implemented. The amount of people getting upset when these big changes come after they pay for a re-spec is growing quite large.

Dakkine
04-19-2010, 03:10 PM
Id likenthe whole attribute thing to be revamped completely, in its current form therw is always that "aah but if its like that then the other thing doesnt work".

This is an idea i just came up with.
Dex for archer dmg
Str for warrior dmg
Int for enchantreas dmg
Hp for well, health

and give armor dmg stat requirements combined with lower hp requirements.
Pure dmg would be stacking the dmg stat wih some hp to use low lvl armor for minot stat buffs, dmg along with survivability would be the normal way, this would also support pvp in the future.
Just an idea.

Those attributes would be way too linear, just like we have now. It would still push players to put full points into one area. It needs to be spread out more as described in the post I linked above.

Banned
04-19-2010, 03:16 PM
There's no other way to put it. This is absolute bull****. Why did daggers have to be decreased to help out warriors? I don't care if it is "fair" it's not gonna make the warrior class any better. I understand that you guys improved the warrior class but making the daggers useless didn't increase a warriors tanking ability did it? Did it increase their health? Did it help out there buffs? Did it make them any more powerful? They answer to all these questions is a obvious NO. Now ANOTHER class is going to be pissed and it's gonna be the warrior drama all over again.

KronicDecay
04-19-2010, 03:38 PM
Dude watch the profanity.... Remember that this is a family game and forum. We understand your upset but you can use a better choice of words to make your point

Garrison
04-19-2010, 03:45 PM
I understand people wanting "balanced" weapons and stats, but if you balance everything too much there will be nothing to distinguish them.

For example, if you really want to get nit-picky you could keep fiddling with daggers, trying to make them faster than other weapons, but also doing less damage so that DPS is comprable to other weapons. That's all well and good to a point, but you still need to create enough diversity in the items to where it's worth picking one over the other - for reasons other than simple style preference.

I suppose it's fine for some of the more standard or mundane weapons at a particular level to have the same DPS, but certainly not all. For the sheer fun of the game, some weapons will have to be unbalanced. The more unbalanced, of course, the more rare or expensive the weapon.

At a certain point, some items should not be available for sale at all and instead be extremely rare drops. This is already in place from what I see. Incidentally, I would support a limit to how many such drops a given character can receive (farming is for soil).

Banned
04-19-2010, 04:02 PM
Dude watch the profanity.... Remember that this is a family game and forum. We understand your upset but you can use a better choice of words to make your point

Sorry, I don't remember this as being advertised as a family game or forum. It's a word, it's not directed at anyone, get over it. And I'll try to do my part and not swear again, but don't make it sound like I just killed someone.

Justg
04-19-2010, 04:05 PM
Folks, we love your passion but please be civil. There are rules about profanity and whatnot right here:

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?27-Message-Forum-Rules

I understand that whatever changes go into the game may please some people and tick off others, but please understand that we are trying to make it better for the greater good. We'll keep balancing, you keep letting us know how you feel about it. In a civil fashion, please :)

maxvegas
04-19-2010, 04:10 PM
as an archer i really dont care about dagers ,i would use them for their dps spec from time to time to f...K around ,bt since range weapons got their dps updated im a happy camper.... and since the team upgrade the game at light speed you will use your precious dagger with another class wink wink assassin

Shebee
04-19-2010, 04:40 PM
Op you might be right with my idea.
I guess my point is that we cant have hp, dmg, weapon speed, dodge, crit and hit rating in one attribute.
In my opinion the hit% is a bit too much for a pocket mmo anyway.

Dakkine
04-19-2010, 05:07 PM
I understand people wanting "balanced" weapons and stats, but if you balance everything too much there will be nothing to distinguish them.

For example, if you really want to get nit-picky you could keep fiddling with daggers, trying to make them faster than other weapons, but also doing less damage so that DPS is comprable to other weapons. That's all well and good to a point, but you still need to create enough diversity in the items to where it's worth picking one over the other - for reasons other than simple style preference.

I suppose it's fine for some of the more standard or mundane weapons at a particular level to have the same DPS, but certainly not all. For the sheer fun of the game, some weapons will have to be unbalanced. The more unbalanced, of course, the more rare or expensive the weapon.

At a certain point, some items should not be available for sale at all and instead be extremely rare drops. This is already in place from what I see. Incidentally, I would support a limit to how many such drops a given character can receive (farming is for soil).

See, you're looking at it from the wrong perspective though. Weapons shouldn't differentiate each class, the stats should. With balanced weapons and a properly configured stat system, the diversity will be so much greater because there will be a reason for each class to distribute points to every attribute. With a greater spread of skill points each class will have at least some ability to wield any weapon to a varying degree, yet still be effective in combat. It's just a more natural course of progression for each class.

Also, with more stats, each players personality will show more on their character since it's more of a customized process.

I'm telling you guys... look at the link in my first post. It just makes sense

Dakkine
04-19-2010, 05:09 PM
Op you might be right with my idea.
I guess my point is that we cant have hp, dmg, weapon speed, dodge, crit and hit rating in one attribute.
In my opinion the hit% is a bit too much for a pocket mmo anyway.

You've got the right idea though. If hit% depended on dexterity, agility, and focus though it would be much more acceptable!

Shebee
04-19-2010, 05:16 PM
Though i dont agree that each class "should" use all of the attributes.

Dakkine
04-19-2010, 07:03 PM
Though i dont agree that each class "should" use all of the attributes.

Not necessarily should, but at least all classes will have some benefit linked to each stat whether big or small

Splurd
04-19-2010, 08:36 PM
I think the trend of how games are getting a point where you simply point one stat, is silly.
Might as well have the stats auto assigned.

I like to see balanced classes, like how warriors add dex to get 100% hit. It should that dex plays a role.

But for archers, its like omg dex dex dex dex dex.

Course, complaining about it and finding a ideal solution are different things.
I'll just stick to the former.

Splurd
04-19-2010, 08:45 PM
As for items, I think the devs have lost their logic. Dropped it somewhere. Or they need to watch robinhood movies and study archery.

Archers should be dps, ok we get the idea.

But there are better ways to be dps rather then just giving them arrow shooting machine guns. I have an Auto Crossbow which shoots faster then my dagger. I can throw spikes, faster then my dagger. It gets alittle silly.
I think a better trade off is increased damage, and return the speeds to normal. they still are dps, but more focused on damage then speed.

Felora
04-19-2010, 09:35 PM
I agree with you. Let's say for Enchantress, 1H wands damage are nerfed and 2H get more damage and faster speed.

I love both types of setups. They are the preferred setup by the DEV. But the changes are too rapid and somewhat not very reasonable.

I am not sure if 3 Stats are enough or not but things need to be clarified to make more sense.

Felora
04-19-2010, 09:39 PM
Not necessarily should, but at least all classes will have some benefit linked to each stat whether big or small

I think it is always good to have alternative playing styles for every class. That's what make a game last long. Let's say a traditional enchantress would focus on INT majorly and cast spells. But there should be an option to mix up and let her weild a sword or bow but she would have to split her attributes. She would become a weaker spell caster but let's say the crit, health would be improved or so on.

It is all about letting the player choose what to make compromises on when they decide to take these alternative paths. Balancing between these setups is the ultimate goal. Frequent nerfs/boosts are not the answer.

nerdherd
04-20-2010, 12:10 AM
In my opinion the changes they made to the daggers was fair and I saw it coming. They were just TOO powerful in comparison to other weapons. I think the changes that were implemented today were very well thought out. They lowered dagger damage, but upped damage for a lot of other weapons. Archers still get much better DPS than warriors, warriors can actually tank now, and the only thing we need is a little tweaking on the enchantress class (like reduced aggro on the heal spell, plus more items with +mana regen) and we'll be good to go. There have been things about the updates that have slightly messed up some of my characters (like my dagger bear's DPS dropping significantly), but that's bound to happen in the first while a game like this is being tweaked. All in all the devs are moving in the right direction, and I have to say that I am very happy overall with the changes that have been made.

Shebee
04-20-2010, 02:20 AM
Im still not happy with the damage, its way too high compared to monster hps.
Make a group of 5 and see how they all drop one by one each second.
Also my lvl 10 enchantress still does more dps than my lvl 30 warrior.

I think 2h weapons should have a significantly higher dps than 1h weapons.
This is logical and it would finally fis the 2hs.

maxvegas
04-20-2010, 03:33 AM
Im still not happy with the damage, its way too high compared to monster hps.
Make a group of 5 and see how they all drop one by one each second.
Also my lvl 10 enchantress still does more dps than my lvl 30 warrior.

I think 2h weapons should have a significantly higher dps than 1h weapons.
This is logical and it would finally fis the 2hs.

dps = damage per second .... try to swing a 6 feet tall sword every 1.0 sec .... doesnt make sense

Splurd
04-20-2010, 04:20 AM
dps = damage per second .... try to swing a 6 feet tall sword every 1.0 sec .... doesnt make sense

Damage per second is not linterally swinging a sword every second.
If I swing the sword once very 2 seconds, and do 500dmg, my dps is 250.

Shebee
04-20-2010, 07:35 AM
dps = damage per second .... try to swing a 6 feet tall sword every 1.0 sec .... doesnt make sense

That made me laugh.