Mages- Even more upsetting

[WarTornBird]

So a buddy of mine let me use his 66 humania set. I went into pvp to mess around, since I quit for a while. I kinda missed it. I went ready to tear holes in some mages. This however was not the case. Even with 65-70 dodge or so, 280 armor. I was dying to easy. Birds wasn't an issue but mages. One mage hit a 340 drain on me. Followed my a hot flash. It's not even fair anymore. Mages have as much armor as me after buff. And a ton more damage and crit. Now I understand as my bear, I'm coming from 55 where mages are easy.

Seeing the armor and dodge of mages, there is no more reason for a pally. A pally literally has 10 more armor then a int mage. Plus less mana regen, maybe with 15 more dodge. Followed by less skill damage. Instead of having 7 on each skill don't you think its time for a revamp. I mean hitting a 340 drain on 280 armor is a little much.

[FluffNStuff]

So what would you suggest for balance?

[saool]

Stop complaining. You have yet to try a really good crafted set. Ugh bears and birds are just as strong. Level up and get a set.

Edit: Btw in Humania even with a full islanders set we mages can get really bad damage from monsters so, it seems like you're saying just cause you're losing in PvP that they should nerf mage gear which will also have a drastic effect in the way we ALSO PvE? I'm sorry, no.

P.S. I love you AngryTornBird :P

[Livemau]

the best birds are not as good as the best mages
Its true that mages have too much cirt
there attacks do as much damage as an archers attacks but a mage can hit multiple. There crit is also too high and they can heal themselves and shield and if its a bunch of mages they can revive each other and heal each other so they never die
5 mages vs 5 birds = 5 dead birds
5 mages vs 5 bears = 5 dead bears
5mages vs 5 mages= endless fighting

thats why im switching to mage

[Elyseon]

yeh using my 70 humanian set vs a 66 angelic mage i took about 400 dmg without even being debuff( doesnt help much when they dodge beckon 3 consecutive times)
however when i got both beckon and crushingblow to hit, they were downed pretty fast

basically now for bears it comes down to beckon hit = win, solidly based on luck
similar to bird vs bird which is simply a blast shot and auto, who ever dodges wins

[Xionskull]

Go int bear ;)

[Elyseon]

i tired it with angelic gear still came to beckon hit = win, miss = loss

by miss i mean mage dodges

[Walkhardd]

Mages should not have Dodge. They should also have the lowest armor of the 3 classes. Heal, drain, and mana shield makes up for it, IMO.


This is coming from a retired Mage. ;)

[Noodleleg]

Mages have about 20 dodge... I like it... That means 1/5 hits, I'll dodge your attack. I just don't see how that's such a biggie... Well, it is kind of annoying how mages tend to dodge my firestorm, but forget that. Birds can beat me. Just cruel blast and repulse me. Shield is down by then and you can whip up a nuke. Learn to kite, bro. Don't rush in and say why we can't use our lightning based nukes.

[Dynastu]

I posted this in another thread, and I'll repost it here:





Today, I was thinking about tweaks to gear/stats that would better balance pvp. The first thing I noticed is that dex gear has low HP regen. I think their hp regen should be greater than 50% more than what it currently is. How would this effect things? Well, birds would have to kite more "Mage-style". By this I mean attacking at 12m, then repulsing away to regen. It would give birds more survivability, as well as offer a new strategical way of looking at things for birds.

Now one would immediately think, "Well, mages and bears can use dex gear, too." That's true. However, HP regen has almost NO effect on mages, especially at endgame. Mages can just heal. They don't need hp regen. But, then you say, "HP regen helps if they have no mana to heal." Mages have 30+ mana regen, I believe. They have no issue with not having enough mana to heal. Or, if they're pinned, they're taking fast damage and will most likely die even with high hp regen. And then there's the argument that bears can use this gear. Str gear already has high hp regen. So it's just like a str bear with more damage and less armor. And here's my closing statement on that--BOWBEARS ARE WEAK, TOO. So, the added hp regen might help another class as well...


Something else I thought about. I was thinking that the dodge stat should completely be removed on mages. But then I thought about pallies. Sigh... IMO, not even pallies need dodge. Thoughts on this?

To sum this up, there are two things "OP" here.
-The int gear, source of high armor on mages and the dodging.
-The superrr high damage skills.


Well, one thing I'd like to say--I do not agree with people who say, "all classes equal burds just require moar skillll". That's crap, lol. The classes are NOTTT (at all) even. Even with good gear. If it requires MORE skill to be equal with an inexperienced Mage, then lol. That means the classes are UNeven, not even...

Edit: Eh, lol, the summary at the end was actually referring to the first paragraph, that I cut out.

[Elyseon]

Mages should not have Dodge. They should also have the lowest armor of the 3 classes. Heal, drain, and mana shield makes up for it, IMO.


This is coming from a retired Mage. ;)
agreed, thats what i liked about AO3 days

also i think they should go back to AO3 standards and only give bonuses to staff int sets, unless they add a quested set like cyber

[Gaunab]

The Devs should take a look at Sewer sets and Gear. Never has there been better class balance and variety of viable builds. Just making the gear more and more powerful each cap and boosting every single attribute really ruins the balance and fun. Same goes for just increasing skill point caps.
WhoIsThis wrote a great thread on gear balance a while back (which seems to have been completely disregarded), I'll put a link in here later.

It really is time for class and gear rebalance (which I was expecting to come with humania >_<), but at this point I'm not even sure if STS even cares about us "complaining" PvPers anymore...

[Elyseon]

The Devs should take a look at Sewer sets and Gear. Never has there been better class balance and variety of viable builds. Just making the gear more and more powerful each cap and boosting every single attribute really ruins the balance and fun. Same goes for just increasing skill point caps.
WhoIsThis wrote a great thread on gear balance a while back (which seems to have been completely disregarded), I'll put a link in here later.

It really is time for class and gear rebalance (which I was expecting to come with humania >_<), but at this point I'm not even sure if STS even cares about us "complaining" PvPers anymore...
yeh 55 was very balanced, although mages say it favored birds
one of my favorite things- notice the crafted int gear only gave the powerful bonus to the staff set, what mages were meant to use

[FluffNStuff]

yeh 55 was very balanced, although mages say it favored birds
one of my favorite things- notice the crafted int gear only gave the powerful bonus to the staff set, what mages were meant to use

I have been looking for this for a while, it is from Cinco's talk at the Game Developers Conference in 2011, right before Sewers were released. It explains why sewers is so popular for PvP and why it is the most balanced. Too bad they did not stick with this :(


Something Spacetime Studios defintely want to do differently in the future is the way they approach balancing the game. Pocket Legends’ PvE gameplay got balanced before PvP – under the assumption that PvE is more important to casual gamers than PvP it sounds logical but according to Barnes this was a huge mistake. Balanced PvP is critical and now has priority over balancing PvE content. Experience tells us that from a player’s perspective imbalanced PvP is considered unfair and frustrating while imbalanced PvE – to a certain degree – is a tough challenge and it can even be rewarding to beat the AI as the underdog.

[Elyseon]

I have been looking for this for a while, it is from Cinco's talk at the Game Developers Conference in 2011, right before Sewers were released. It explains why sewers is so popular for PvP and why it is the most balanced. Too bad they did not stick with this :(
yah nice find, now it seems they are going for pve balance only

[Dynastu]

Fluff, that's a really good find... The devs should stick to that idea, lol. You should make a thread in the Suggestions and Feedback area with that quote; maybe the devs will see it.

[Whirlzap]

If you want I can give you a 500+ crit on your warbird.

[Dynastu]

Another idea I'd like to see the discussion on (using rank 6 skills, as I'm not as familiar with the figures on rank 7:

What if Blessing of Might gave 30 crit and Focus gave 60 crit? So flip flop the crit buffs. I'm not sure if this would just make birds way more powerful, but if it actually evened out pvp, then it wouldnt JUST help endgame, it would help even birds and mages at all levels. I mean, a level 30 bird vs a level 30 mage? It was possible before GCD, but now? Puh-lease! Bears may need a tweak, too, but I personally don't have any ideas.

Another thing that might go along with this idea--give classes their offensive buffs (and defensive buffs, for that matter) at the same level. Then, perhaps, level 10 pvp would be evened out a little.

These are just thoughts, I'm not saying I want them implemented. If the devs test this and it evens things out, then HECK YES I'd want it implemented. Any thoughts?

[trunzoc]

From my experience, Mages ARE overpowered. Like was said earlier, when you have to have the best gear and vastly superior game skills to beat a brandnew-to-pvp mage that looked up comboes here, something is wrong.

From what I've seen in PVP at level 65 and lvl 70 is that a Mage, 1v1, will quickly drop any other build except maybe a dexbird 95% of the time. Dexbirds only win because of the range, but think about that... They win because they are skilled enough ot keep exactly 12m range between them and someone else. Any other class just hits auto and mashes skills.

I'm a war bird. I'm pretty evenly matched against tanks and dexbirds, but not mages. I'd go so far as to say 99% death when I fight them. IF I dodge drain/lightning and IF I crit cruel blast, I MIGHT win. They really are the same as dexbirds as far as damage is concerned, except now they dodge like a bear.

Have to break mana sheild which is harder than hell now with the increased dodge.
then you have to deal enough damage fast enough they they can't heal, or can't get off the 600hp dmg combo.

So yeah, HUGE damage, Mana Shield, Heal spells, now crazy dodge, i can see how they are perfectly balance....

[Zeus]

STS made the PL app icon the face of an elf, obviously they all want us to choose elves so everything will be balanced.

[Phoenixking]

STS made the PL app icon the face of an elf, obviously they all want us to choose elves so everything will be balanced.
The elf is the mascot, it's in the front of both other races in the logo thingy, Mage usually represents Pocket Legends

This means mages are going to be given godly powers, I cant wait till level 100 when little girls that have pointy ears hit 4x damage than a bird or bear can do

[Subscriber]

Saool you are a mage... ._."

[Mothwing]

I'm really over all this hate against mages ._. You don't see Kanital complaining every single update. Oh wait, it's cause we aren't OP.

[Zeus]

I'm really over all this hate against mages ._. You don't see Kanital complaining every single update. Oh wait, it's cause we aren't OP.

He complains in game, lol.

[Phoenixking]

Level 70 gear has less dodge though

[Mothwing]

He complains in game, lol.

Derp. xD

[WarTornBird]

Kanital in himself is OP -_- he also has 50-60k more kills than most people. Some guy with 80k kills obviously knows about pvp. I'm sure he complains.

[Subscriber]

I'm really over all this hate against mages ._. You don't see Kanital complaining every single update. Oh wait, it's cause we aren't OP.

Haha are you joking? People dude, just wow.

[Phoenixking]

Derp. xD
And a very big one, did you ever talk to kanital?

[Elyseon]

make int like str: not add any hit%
imsure that would help

[Phoenixking]

make int like str: not add any hit%
imsure that would help
That would be bad for mages, it would most likely make them underpowered

[Mothwing]

And a very big one, did you ever talk to kanital?

Yeah, in fact I talked to him quite a bit during MF. He never complained about mages. And he never had trouble with them (besides me) (Kidding...)

[Elyseon]

theyll just have to go hybrid like bears are forced too

[Phoenixking]

Yeah, in fact I talked to him quite a bit during MF. He never complained about mages. And he never had trouble with them (besides me) (Kidding...)
You are a Mage though, why would he talk about how OP mages are at you if your main is a Mage

[WarTornBird]

You also have to remember experience. Kanital would have no trouble ragdolling a mage that's has like 7k kills. Now pit Kelly against him. Both have the same amount of experience. He isn't going to ragdoll Kelly like he can someone who isn't near as good.

[Mothwing]

You are a Mage though, why would he talk about how OP mages are at you if your main is a Mage

I'll stop here...

If anybody else wishes to complain about mages, do it in-game where I can't see it, because it's just not true. It all comes down to experience. Play more=win more. It's common sense.

[Gaunab]

I'll stop here...

If anybody else wishes to complain about mages, do it in-game where I can't see it, because it's just not true. It all comes down to experience. Play more=win more. It's common sense.

When even the best can't overcome the unbalanced gear there obviously is something wrong.
Only way a bird can survive anything is dodge (ie luck).
If you are a Mage and don't see it, you either dont want to see it or you need to grow some skills cause the Set can't do all the work for you.

[kellylita]

way to much dodge in all classes now. bear with 80+.... like really?? pallies with 46 dodge amd 100 crit..... like really???? birds suck lije always unless they are str birds. dex bow has less damage then str sword..lol i dont think devs really thought this through.

[saool]

Saool you are a mage... ._."

Yes I am. :P

[Dynastu]

I'm really over all this hate against mages ._. You don't see Kanital complaining every single update. Oh wait, it's cause we aren't OP.

First off--If it requires the skill of Kanital to beat a Mage? THEN MAGES ARE OP. For heaven's sake, people. If the only way birds can be equal with the average Mage is to be incredibly skilled, then that does not mean that it's even! Lol. The whole idea of unevenness is that something is greater than something else. So, in this case, mages are greater than birds. So it seems like 100% of the complaints are saying stuff like, "Oh, the pro skilled birds beat mages," and they're also mostly from mages. Yes, it's possible for incredibly skilled birds to beat a Mage, but Moth. By saying that you're proving the point that mages are OP. Mages are greater than birds. Birds require more skill to beat a Mage. Therefore, mages ARE "OP", or just way more powerful than other classes, birds in particular.

Secondly, it appears that he does complain, as the people who know him best say he does.

This is not intended to be a rant lol.

Another thing I'd like to do. I'd like to see how the stats have changed on sets since level 50 or 55 for each stat. So how have stats changed on dex gear, str gear, int gear, etc. Maybe I'll look into this and post a thread of results.

[Elyseon]

per item raw stats(top end pinks)
level 50 armour stats str>dex>int(same as pre 50)
level 55 armour stats str>int>dex
level 60 armour stats str>int>dex
level 65 armour stats str=int>dex
level 70 armour stats int>str>dex
so we end with cloth being tougher than plate mail or leather

based on non-weapon dmg
level 50 damage stats str>dex>int
level 55 damage stats int>str>dex
level 60 damage stats int>dex>str
level 65 damage stats int=dex>str
level 70 damage stats int>dex>str
so we see int with highest armour and damage per set item

level 50 crit% stats str>dex=int
level 55 crit% stats dex>int=str
level 60 crit% stats dex>int>str
level 65 crit% stats int>dex>str
level 70 crit% stats int>dex>str
so now int has the highest armour, damage, and crit

level 50 hit% stats dex=str=int
level 55 hit% stats dex>int=str
level 60 hit% stats dex>int=str
level 65 hit% stats dex>int=str
level 70 hit% stats dex>str>int

level 50 dodge% stats dex>str=int
level 55 dodge% stats str=dex=int
level 60 dodge% stats str>dex=int
level 65 dodge% stats str>dex=int
level 70 dodge% stats str>dex>int

im gonna leave regen off cuz its really not one of the most important things except to mages

but the health at 70 per the normal member of its class
dex=500+55 elite vanities=555
str=810+55 elite vanities=865
int=400+55 elite vanities+25 buff+800 mana shield=1280

[Dynastu]

No, I meant something more like

Int Wand set-
Crit increased x amount from mega Mage set to sun goddess set
Hit% increased/decreased x amount... Etc.

This would be done for all three attributes.

[Elyseon]

No, I meant something more like

Int Wand set-
Crit increased x amount from mega Mage set to sun goddess set
Hit% increased/decreased x amount... Etc.

This would be done for all three attributes.
u mean per item or an average character?

[TANKKAAR]

Funny how most people dont remember (or maybe werent around) but at lvl 50 cap i recall both bears & birds recieving a nerf... Which at the time was needed in order to balance the classes. Directly after that we got the sewers which IMO and many others was a great time in pvp due to the fact ALL classes had a fair chance. After that is when the balance started to shift in favor of the mages. The point of this story is that that nerf although needed then was the beggining of the imbalance that we are now seeing in PVP with obsurd crits, ungodly armor (before mana shield) and now adding dodge (of substancial amounts) into the mix.

Plain and simple mages need one (or more) of the following things nerfed in order to balance pvp across classes.
Crit
Dodge
Armor

sorry but its true...

[Dynastu]

Funny how most people dont remember (or maybe werent around) but at lvl 50 cap i recall both bears & birds recieving a nerf... Which at the time was needed in order to balance the classes. Directly after that we got the sewers which IMO and many others was a great time in pvp due to the fact ALL classes had a fair chance. After that is when the balance started to shift in favor of the mages. The point of this story is that that nerf although needed then was the beggining of the imbalance that we are now seeing in PVP with obsurd crits, ungodly armor (before mana shield) and now adding dodge (of substancial amounts) into the mix.

Plain and simple mages need one (or more) of the following things nerfed in order to balance pvp across classes.
Crit
Dodge
Armor

sorry but its true...

Yes. At level 50, birds were greatly favored due to incredibly fast dps, as GCD had not been implemented. Birds and bears had to be nerfed. But after GCD came and the 56 cap passed..?

Funny, but just yesterday I was going through several posts from April 2011, and I came across the dozens of rage threads about GCD lol. I can't believe we've come so far with it. Many people don't know what GCD is and nobody ever complains anymore.

[Elyseon]

check this ancient screenie!!!!!!
http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m513/ThePhantomCow/ad47a95f.jpg

[WarTornBird]

Good to know I'm not the only one who's on this boat. This is why twinked at 55 for so long. It's hard to bear a forti bear. But as well I died just the same as the next guy.
Custom recurve has tons of crit.
Mega mage set has the most mana regenerate Evar, and about 100% hit with dex/int.
And bears had tons of armor and tons of hp regenerate.

Now it seems that...
Mages have tons of armor, backed my tons of crit. Now Being backed by dodge. With about 120% hit
Bears have tons of dodge, good armor and good regenerate.
Annnd birds have decent crit. Very low armor compared to the other classes, good hit(not that it surpasses dodge as many people try to say) and that about does it.


55 was WAY easier for all toons cause it was an equal chance for anyone to win. Even nuris was ok.

[Elyseon]

good hit(not that it surpasses dodge as many people try to say) and that about does it.

i swear it does, but yeh we need some moar balance

[Dynastu]

i swear it does, but yeh we need some moar balance

It doesn't lol

[Elyseon]

It doesn't lol
bet it does

[vampinoy]

Actually figured this out since Nuri days that's why I normally FFA in the few instances I PVP in end-game...because even on a 1on1...it's not gona be "fair" anyway...might as well get the upperhand right away :P Plus it's more fun really...your imbalanced gear is no match for my level 7 sneak attack :-D

[Phoenixking]

bet it does
I've tested

You will never miss if hit is above 100 and then the other has the chance to dodge, if they don't dodge you hit, hit cant control if the other will dodge or not

I don't know if you were being sarcastic though

[Mothwing]

First off--If it requires the skill of Kanital to beat a Mage? THEN MAGES ARE OP. For heaven's sake, people. If the only way birds can be equal with the average Mage is to be incredibly skilled, then that does not mean that it's even! Lol. The whole idea of unevenness is that something is greater than something else. So, in this case, mages are greater than birds. So it seems like 100% of the complaints are saying stuff like, "Oh, the pro skilled birds beat mages," and they're also mostly from mages. Yes, it's possible for incredibly skilled birds to beat a Mage, but Moth. By saying that you're proving the point that mages are OP. Mages are greater than birds. Birds require more skill to beat a Mage. Therefore, mages ARE "OP", or just way more powerful than other classes, birds in particular.

Secondly, it appears that he does complain, as the people who know him best say he does.

This is not intended to be a rant lol.

Another thing I'd like to do. I'd like to see how the stats have changed on sets since level 50 or 55 for each stat. So how have stats changed on dex gear, str gear, int gear, etc. Maybe I'll look into this and post a thread of results.

Thanks for the post. I guess after seeing so many of these threads I shut my brain off and immediately went defensive. I retract my previous posts and agree 100% with this one. I am NOT however saying that it doesn't take still to be a Mage, because it does. Every class has its ups and downs, pros and cons.

I also believe the update is way too young to be jumping to conclusions like these. Let's wait for everyone to cap, then make statements towards PVP.