Class Balance (Non-toxic discussion)

[Analytical]

[Note: Cinco, again, feel free to ban/delete those who instigates unsolicited toxicity/names calling and not this whole thread. To AL players, if you can't communicate without getting mad/cussing at each other, this thread is not for you]

From the previously deleted thread, the topic was about:
-Nerfing warrior for being too op in terms of one shoting bosses and
-Buffing mages and rogues primarily because they pale in this particular pve comparison. (@snakeyes Do correct me if I misunderstood anything you originally wanted to discuss, will be edited as per necessary)

The main points worthy of discussion imo are
1. Why is it okay to give warrior the ability to one shot bosses? Or Why not?
2. If you agree with nerfing warrior, then what would you propose making up for it or not at all? Next, is this proposal gonna make warrior needed in maps and not like the old times where they were excluded from all parties for being useless?
3. If you want to buff mages and rogues, again how do you ensure this buff doesn't make wars useless in map?
4. Given the current state of game, to what extent is tanking, taunting still needed(where? Only temple event?)? Or is it pure damage output now? Can decently geared pve players now survive without warriors?
5. Balance between classes, in what aspect? Do you mean no class should dominate pve nor pvp? Is it considered balanced if all 3 classes are good at either pve or pvp but not both? Or Do you mean Ultimates skill balance? What would happen to wars if mages and rogues have X 6 primary stats too? Is it still "balanced"? If not how would you modify it relevant to the current state of game?

(POSSIBLE EDITS: Additional questions & suggestions from responses below)

[Cinco]

I'll zap the whole thread if it goes off the rails.

Good luck, and best wishes.

[Encryptions]

1 Warrior shouldn't be able to nuke bosses, it makes no sense. Warrior is setup to survive and deal damage, bosses do not do a ton of damage in this game other than evg high waves. Warriors should be more powerful at clearing mobs, not bosses. We die to groups of mobs because we can't clear them fast.
2 Rework it to kill bosses at a decent speed like 30s - 1minute to kill say the elite bosses in the zodias maps on a 2k str war, make it able to take on groups of mobs easier, add a damage debuff resistance on charged juggernaut.
3 There is no buffing them, they actually need nerfed down a bit, rogue needs a skill to make it invincible for 3 seconds and increased hp / armor on all 3 classes.
4 Taunt is useless, if you are a lv 81 warrior with say a lv 75 character behind you then you run up to the mobs; those mobs actually run past you and attack the weakest character first.
5 6x stats on a mage or rogue would hurt this game. Do 3x stats on ult at the most for mage and rog, remember they get 700% and 500% dmg buffs while their base damage is already higher than a warriors. My mage already crits for 1mil+ damage.

Just remember swamp temple, rogue and mage right now will go until they die. Warrior will go until he can't kill mobs. See the problem? We should be able to go until we die, not have issues killing mobs. Proc stacking was perfect, it just needed reworked.

[THE GOLDEN KING]

Or we could start over from scratch with a new AL 2.0 game, so we do t have this giant mess of endgame.


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[Irg]

Since they removed proc stacking, a single weapon can tip the balance
Is rogue too weak? Is warrior too strong? Its too early to assume especially
when new arcane is around the corner.
Rogue mage and war all had its time. Maybe they will make rogue absolutely op
again by giving the best proc, and people will spend more gold going for rogue etc
Maybe or maybe not, but its all a part of the plan.

Above all, i personally feel like even rogues should hope that they don't make it too op
Even when rogue got the foreseeably "worst weapons", their gear cost double. If you
dont want quadruple instead, hope that its not that good.

Peace and love, theres never a right choice, or a perfect balance

[Observing]

I just hope that we don't get weapons that require 2 charged attacks to proc

[snakeeyes]

[Note: Cinco, again, feel free to ban/delete those who instigates unsolicited toxicity/names calling and not this whole thread. To AL players, if you can't communicate without getting mad/cussing at each other, this thread is not for you]

From the previously deleted thread, the topic was about:
-Nerfing warrior for being too op in terms of one shoting bosses and
-Buffing mages and rogues primarily because they pale in this particular pve comparison. (@snakeyes Do correct me if I misunderstood anything you originally wanted to discuss, will be edited as per necessary)

The main points worthy of discussion imo are
1. Why is it okay to give warrior the ability to one shot bosses? Or Why not?
2. If you agree with nerfing warrior, then what would you propose making up for it or not at all? Next, is this proposal gonna make warrior needed in maps and not like the old times where they were excluded from all parties for being useless?
3. If you want to buff mages and rogues, again how do you ensure this buff doesn't make wars useless in map?
4. Given the current state of game, to what extent is tanking, taunting still needed(where? Only temple event?)? Or is it pure damage output now? Can decently geared pve players now survive without warriors?
5. Balance between classes, in what aspect? Do you mean no class should dominate pve nor pvp? Is it considered balanced if all 3 classes are good at either pve or pvp but not both? Or Do you mean Ultimates skill balance? What would happen to wars if mages and rogues have X 6 primary stats too? Is it still "balanced"? If not how would you modify it relevant to the current state of game?

(POSSIBLE EDITS: Additional questions & suggestions from responses below)

This is right @Analytical thanks for this threads, rogue players has been quiet for 2 or more years even rogue has been nerf in pve update, now without toxic words the thoughts and suggestions of each class can be clearly expressed specially rogue users.

[Stephencobear]

As to #4 taunt has been broken for years
I pointed out to Futumsh that taunt is over ridden when someone does more damage than the one who taunted
He didn’t say it’s bugged
Both other classes do more damage to mobs normally so they pass by the “tank”

In pl the tank had a clearly defined role to taunt and pull mobs (like tb proc)
Here it’s devolved into a competition to do damage

I said jokingly there are 2 classes now- damage and survive

[PatD]

I think the best recipe is that every class can have fun to run when they have invest some time, gold and money into their characters, i think we can all agree that tedious mechanic is fun for couple of days but become very boring after a while, so the best would be to make every class be able to be op and have fun running :D

Ps: Somberholt was the most fun expansion imo ;) especially with tb and later on with ebon aegis hehe (this is from a warr perspective, idk for other class)

[umarrahim]

1 Warrior shouldn't be able to nuke bosses, it makes no sense. Warrior is setup to survive and deal damage, bosses do not do a ton of damage in this game other than evg high waves. Warriors should be more powerful at clearing mobs, not bosses. We die to groups of mobs because we can't clear them fast.
2 Rework it to kill bosses at a decent speed like 30s - 1minute to kill say the elite bosses in the zodias maps on a 2k str war, make it able to take on groups of mobs easier, add a damage debuff resistance on charged juggernaut.
3 There is no buffing them, they actually need nerfed down a bit, rogue needs a skill to make it invincible for 3 seconds and increased hp / armor on all 3 classes.
4 Taunt is useless, if you are a lv 81 warrior with say a lv 75 character behind you then you run up to the mobs; those mobs actually run past you and attack the weakest character first.
5 6x stats on a mage or rogue would hurt this game. Do 3x stats on ult at the most for mage and rog, remember they get 700% and 500% dmg buffs while their base damage is already higher than a warriors. My mage already crits for 1mil+ damage.

Just remember swamp temple, rogue and mage right now will go until they die. Warrior will go until he can't kill mobs. See the problem? We should be able to go until we die, not have issues killing mobs. Proc stacking was perfect, it just needed reworked.Warrior should not have gold AoE clear capabilities, that's Mage's job.

They need to change the meta in such a way that Warrior's are needed for tanking (aggro mobs and bosses), Mages are needed for clearing mobs (high AoE damage), and rogues are needed for killing bosses and minibosses (high single target damage)

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[flashio]

Since a skill revamp is on the work I think there should be an open beta version to have players test these changes and point out what needs to be changed or give feedback towards making the gameplay more role-balanced so we end up with an endgame where no class is left behind and maybe even a lively PvP.

Bringing a feedback thread whenever that skill revamp is close to be implemented in game would help as well.

Main problem for class balance in my opinion is the impact gear procs have on the actual gameplay, we have come to a situation where we cant kill anything endgame related if we don't have a proc active.

[championboost]

Buff Rogues
less single target damage than mage
less area damage than mage
less shield than mage

its easier to play mage
mage has better ults
rogues need to use a mana potion after every skill( when u use 3 skills in a second that 3 mana potions) for mage u use one hundred skills for 1 mana potion
haste is useless on rogue as bow doesnt get affected
mage is just better in every way

only thing really op about war is that it can one shot like every boss in the game with ult

[Synergia]

Let's start talking about rogue heal ultimate and how useless this thing is

[Encryptions]

Warrior should not have gold AoE clear capabilities, that's Mage's job.

They need to change the meta in such a way that Warrior's are needed for tanking (aggro mobs and bosses), Mages are needed for clearing mobs (high AoE damage), and rogues are needed for killing bosses and minibosses (high single target damage)

Sent from my GM1913 using TapatalkNo one would play war if this was the only purpose for war.

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[AgentStonoga]

Buff warrior in pvp

[umarrahim]

No one would play war if this was the only purpose for war.

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkThey could make it so that the maps are unplayable without a warrior, gives bosses and mobs a lot of damage which only warriors can tank.

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[Adek Nakal]

imagine having end game gear but still died to the mob lol ....
lucky sts made polar for war they can 1 shot dm boss if not we will be left behind,just to recall

[whatwasit]

Buff warrior in pvp

warriors ok in pvp

[AgentStonoga]

warriors ok in pvp

They're not, 2.4k dex rog easily beats 2.7k str war.
Pro sorc can also deal with pro war.

[whatwasit]

They're not, 2.4k dex rog easily beats 2.7k str war.
Pro sorc can also deal with pro war.

lol, unskilled crying

[Encryptions]

They could make it so that the maps are unplayable without a warrior, gives bosses and mobs a lot of damage which only warriors can tank.

Sent from my GM1913 using TapatalkNot possible, mage staff already gives a ton of hp and armor. Rogue players would quit playing rog on this case.
Everyone wants teamwork but there are a lot of really bad players in this game who do not know anything about strategy or teamwork. They spam every skill regardless if its heal or not, they don't pay attention to their team hp, they don't even know how to correctly setup the classes. Alot of the threads made on class balance shows who knows and doesn't know how to setup a class they use based on what they say.
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[Necl]

I'll zap the whole thread if it goes off the rails.

Good luck, and best wishes.Zaaap hehehe

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[umarrahim]

Not possible, mage staff already gives a ton of hp and armor. Rogue players would quit playing rog on this case.

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkAs I said, they'd have to revamp everything.

Make mage staff not give defensive stats, and give 1000% mob damage + 500% boss damage ( so that they can still damage bosses, but the proc would be weaker on boss that it currently is)

Give warriors a proc that taunts nearby enemies and deal %health max damage and reduce enemy armor per sec in combat for example.

This way, the longer they are in battle and the more they are tanking, the more damage they do. I'd say about 5%max health damage per sec vs mobs, and 0.5%max health damage vs boss. The damage vs boss sounds low, but it's 100% of the boss hp in 200sec without the usage of skills and help of other class.

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[Encryptions]

Reminds me of another game. A skill that makes your character invincible for 15 seconds and every bit of damage you take is added up and when you press a button it releases all of the damage taken to near by enemies.
Intake 60 hits of 1k damage each hit so your burst will do 60k damage to each mob near by and it is controlled to when ever you want to activate that damage release in the map only.
The only "exploit" really is if a low lv joins a high lvl map then the explode damage will be in the millions due to lower lvls taking increased damage from higher lvl mobs. Not really an exploit or usable though. Activate that skill and go naked.
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[Necl]

For Rogues users and Mages users your situation isnt too bad just wait for news procs the problem is what we shouldn't be tapping fast and a lot of buttoms on our screens thats bad for the hands (tendon problems) I remember when hotbars didn't exits the gameplay was more soft not agressive, now we have it and also ultimates which maybe arent useful for all clases so need to rework it for Rogues and mages and make better procs or mechanics like a weapon which buff all basic attacks and skills if they all are only charged or something like that

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[PatD]

Personally i think that the best scenario when reaching end game and getting best gears would be this:

Warrior:
Defense - survive cuz of high hp and armor
Attack - high damage to kill both mobs and boss, more taunt, stun and agro

Mage:
Defense - survive cuz of magic, shield etc
Attack - high damage to kill both mobs and boss, more AOE and paralyse skill

Rogue:
Defense - survive cuz of high dodge and speed
Attack - high damage to kill both mobs and boss, more aim shot and snares

So basically all char can if they want solo a map and have fun doing it and if in pt then can clear faster, thats it!!

Clean and simple hack n slash game :D

And all class get different proc but they all need be spectacular, powerful and fun to use

[danielvalentine1403]

I have a good idea. Warrior is op because of polaris + ulti. How about nerf ulti war. The str and armor are the same. The damage ultimate is reduced. ?????

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[Encryptions]

Guys try to play each class.

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[Aayushh007]

Guys try to play each class.

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkThey don't play other classes cuz they lazy to sell gears and buy different gears for other classes. Or just don't have enough gold to buy other character gears too

[AgentStonoga]

lol, unskilled crying

i wonder how better skill can help you with taking 30k dmg from aim shot

[Xyv.io]

Mass pull procs is the only thing that'll be very relevant on warriors, they shouldn't have this one shotting ability.

[snakeeyes]

Lol see the main problem class balance broken because of skill not the proc or the stacking proc that they remove last year, make the each class different passive skill first, what is the use of stat ressetting using respect and if a rogue put their full stat to str and int this is useless ofcourse, same as war and mage put their stat to dex, make skill of mage specialty to element like thunder, water, darkness and earth remove the critical to warior and mage critical is for rogue only, rogue make specialty to poison and high damage crit only, add hide skill and because they are to weak on deffensive, for warior make it specialty to bleed, no critical 0% but high aoe red damage that they can kill boss and mobs not in oneshot, remove 1shot/banished in game.

[Necl]

You guys all what u want is to devs make op your classes and forget it all for warriors i remember the planar tombs expansion when warriors only work for pull and park enemies and nothing more because didnt had enough dmg or arcs 56 where bests procs was for mages and rogues

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[PatD]

Lol see the main problem class balance broken because of skill not the proc or the stacking proc that they remove last year, make the each class different passive skill first, what is the use of stat ressetting using respect and if a rogue put their full stat to str and int this is useless ofcourse, same as war and mage put their stat to dex, make skill of mage specialty to element like thunder, water, darkness and earth remove the critical to warior and mage critical is for rogue only, rogue make specialty to poison and high damage crit only, add hide skill and because they are to weak on deffensive, for warior make it specialty to bleed, no critical 0% but high aoe red damage that they can kill boss and mobs not in oneshot, remove 1shot/banished in game.

Lol do this and you kill the game, all class need be op to make everyone happy, stop asking to nerf, this will only bring frustration and people will stop enjoying the game

[snakeeyes]

2nd idea make str stat only for defensive player str is for high health and high armor only no damage and crit added, int is for mana regen and mana and for dot damage like poison,bleed and element like thunder of mage remove crirical to int and now dex is for critical high damage so they can choose what they want to put each class player, if they want high breed class put equal to str,dex and int, of they want warior boss killer but weak on defensive warior stat put on dex. Dont be mad this is only a opinion.

[snakeeyes]

Lol do this and you kill the game, all class need be op to make everyone happy, stop asking to nerf, this will only bring frustration and people will stop enjoying the game

Lol this is what happen now only warior enjoying to their boss damage and defensive heal and armor.

[Necl]

2nd idea make str stat only for defensive player str is for high health and high armor only no damage and crit added, int is for mana regen and mana and for dot damage like poison,bleed and element like thunder of mage remove crirical to int and now dex is for critical high damage so they can choose what they want to put each class player, if they want high breed class put equal to str,dex and int, of they want warior boss killer but weak on defensive warior stat put on dex. Dont be mad this is only a opinion.Again this guy hating warriors while as a rogue can easy kill mobs and mini but a warrior cant clean, that "one shot" isnt a one shot u need to proc the polaris and charge it 2 times its two shots or three for mini and they could dodge it, sure u were happy in Planar arena when the warriors were discriminated and all Rogues with arc dragon hunter daggers were domaining all the vial farm

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[PatD]

Lol this is what happen now only warior enjoying to their boss damage and defensive heal and armor.

And this is why you should ask to buff rogue and mage then, not nerf the one you say is happy, but even if you say so, to enjoy warrior doing one shot kill you need invest lot of gold to have very high stats, not all warrior can do that

[snakeeyes]

This is the question what is the meaning of elite boss and elite maps if warior can finish the map faster without dying, because they kill boss only in 1-2-3 hits and then they finishes the map but the other need to clear the mobs, while killing the boss and always insta die, elite meaning is only for mage and specially rogue and not for warior.

[snakeeyes]

Again this guy hating warriors while as a rogue can easy kill mobs and mini but a warrior cant clean, that "one shot" isnt a one shot u need to proc the polaris and charge it 2 times its two shots or three for mini and they could dodge it, sure u were happy in Planar arena when the warriors were discriminated and all Rogues with arc dragon hunter daggers were domaining all the vial farm

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Where on earth is dodge on my chat? Hide is for special intro attack. Thats why we need wariors heal

[PatD]

This is the question what is the meaning of elite boss and elite maps if warior can finish the map faster without dying, because they kill boss only in 1-2-3 hits and then they finishes the map but the other need to clear the mobs, while killing the boss and always insta die, elite meaning is only for mage and specially rogue and not for warior.

You are very wrong, as warrior we also die alot in those map, less for sure but we still harvest lot of death, make a warrior and try you ll see

[Thewolfbull]

Just remake Mausoleum or something similar, these raids (mecharydon/rahab/ekenta) along with normal maps where you can skip all mobs and just kill the mini bosses and then run to boss just make the map about who has the best damage proc at the time. Class balance won't matter if the current maps don't have reasons for all classes. Need more focus on mobs/longer time fighting groups of mobs, maybe add stuns/curse/healer mobs to every other group and make most of them need to be killed to spawn the boss.

[snakeeyes]

And this is why you should ask to buff rogue and mage then, not nerf the one you say is happy, but even if you say so, to enjoy warrior doing one shot kill you need invest lot of gold to have very high stats, not all warrior can do that

Same not all rogue is op even op rogue need warior what about the midle and low average rogue.

[Necl]

That "one shot" isnt it at all, need to charge the ultimate have to work on that limited time and if the boss or mini dodge it became a waste also the bosses are pushing back and spawning mobs making it easier to fail, so you arent objetive for each op war that makes it look easy to kill are 100 wars failing it and im incluyed

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[snakeeyes]

Can i ask what is the main reason why warior kill big boss kill in oneshot some warior can do damage polaris 80% hp of boss rip and nepta each damage done 10-20% hp of boss lost with 4-6x combo so they kill big boss easily?

[Necl]

Can i ask what is the main reason why warior kill big boss kill in oneshot some warior can do damage polaris 80% hp of boss rip and nepta each damage done 10-20% hp of boss lost with 4-6x combo so they kill big boss easily?Rogues and mages can also do good dmg with their own procs to the boss like nepta if your problem is with Polar maybe the could nerf it to bosses but buffing the aoe to kill more mobs and 3 also it could give more importance to Neptaris weap and both items would lower their price

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[snakeeyes]

Rogues and mages can also do good dmg with their own procs to the boss like nepta if your problem is with Polar maybe the could nerf it to bosses but buffing the aoe to kill more mobs and 3 also it could give more importance to Neptaris weap and both items would lower their price

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This is what we need to make map enjoyable no more 1 hit deleting boss, i see on video of encryption rogue its ok but not almost the same as neptas damage, nepta is 2nd most op damage in al but 1 hit delete the hp in elite endgame map is unfair to all. The problem is x6 str of rage.

[Necl]

This is what we need to make map enjoyable no more 1 hit deleting boss, i see on video of encryption rogue its ok but not almost the same as neptas damage, nepta is 2nd most op damage in al but 1 hit delete the hp in elite endgame map is unfair to all. The problem is x6 str of rage.The problem is what u cant see it isnt easy as you think

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[snakeeyes]

@Devs here's what's happening now in zodias map elite,
1. we depend on the damage of the warior and we do nothing but follow,
2. we pretending that tha high damage to boss is us but in reality thats a warior damage.
3. some warior best ms and damage left other player behind then greedy kill the mini boss one by one and then the big boss, they ruined other player enjoyment, i can follow him and do nothing just looting dont do anything but follow. but how about the other poor that cannot follow because one op war can 1 shot boss insta? Rog and mage cannot do that.

[snakeeyes]

And because the map objective is to kill boss not to clear mobs, warior dominates endgame map. And about saying switch to war we all go to war, but not all the player like warior here is some example theres a player here in forum dont like dagger and he stick to bow, because just he dont want to use dagger just example the dagger is warior and bow is a rogue.

[snakeeyes]

I hope i didnt ban here because of complaining and so many player here was angry about me because of complain, i hit also warior in my guild and friends because of complaining about warior, im done thanks.

[Encryptions]

Try playing as a warrior.

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[Adek Nakal]

dont worry when u op(maybe when arc available) enough the war dont even have time to charge their ult no need to cry the war deleting the boss.

[yoasobi]

Don't mind me, I need 10 posts. This is ridiculous. XD

[capeo]

I find it funny that people see a awar ulti and one hit something and complain. I see more fails then successful one hits. When I run with good rogues and mages i can barely keep up. By the time I get to the boss my ulti isn't charged and I can't one hit anything. Ever since they buffed daggers rogues in pvp are op. I can't survive a strong rogue when dagger procs with jug or horn. Proc lasts longer then 3 seconds. Jug doesnt heal as fast as they do damage. So yeah an average rogue can take a tank out with the proc. At least if they just stand there getting hit by daggers. Anyone that thinks wars are to op should try running elite zodias and clearing mobs. Takes forever to kill anything.

[friana]

i quit warrior because of only doing kill boss with that weapons and its main damage in party . its not warriors role
all class of role is gone now . . almost warrior doesnt care how save party and they only focus how thay give damage but its not , however i know weapons force us to do this i play warrior again someday

[Boba Fett]

All i gotta say is: Mage is love, mage is life

[Mythocrisis]

All these people saying one shot in relation to warrior are talking about a very small minority of warriors who have invested hundreds of millions into a full set slotted and high output pet.

I've spent a good chunk of gold on gear /mythics 81 and I can't 1 shot sheet.

So don't come here after you saw some warrior one shot a boss... And you can't.
Similarly I seen rogues and mages do some insane numbers on mobs and bosses too, but I don't go around crying so much damage dealt, nerf em or boost wars.

I never heard any of you here crying the same way when proc stacking was removed where tanks lost huge amount of gold while the mages and rogies profitted out of them in all the mob clearing done by tanks in evg USING PROCESS STACK. Just come in to kill boss and collect your monies.
Stop making these threads and asking for a nerf / buff when you don't know the basics.

Let the devs take care of em

[Theroumag]

I see a lot of people with bad takes so I'll give my thoughts here. I don't have all the expensive proc gear, I just play all three classes and grinded them to 81 so your ordinary player's opinion for what it's worth

1) The experience of leveling is different than endgame by a whole lot, with not so good gear mages need to get carried through Misty Grotto, and simply do less damage than rouges. Aquarius changes Mages to be v strong. For warriors, with okay gear you do similar enough damage to an early mage... with WAY MORE damn survivability making the class feel way better. Rouges do the most damage but are squishy, I like where they are now, though they feel like superior mages until endgame

2) Class identify for Warrior without looking at the raw numbers, my impressions and improvements:
Warriors Juggernaut charged skill feels great to pull off, you "stand and deliver" massive sweeping cleaves and whirlwinds while being an absolute unit, it feels great.

The other skills are rather lackluster, for example the Axe throw pull is a good spell utility wise but not feel wise, you chuck something at an enemy and it dies from afar in grinding lvl areas, or it's just a single targeted meh damage ability. I would prefer this ability to fire two projectiles, pull, and debuff, while doing less damage, think "get over here" as a utility spell. Rallying Cry and Vengeful blood both feel like duplicates of Juggernaut while going against warriors feel, warriors should be tanking and debuffing, not third rate healing and recovering mana and health. Buffing should be part of the mages core identity, and maybe one skill in rouge's kit. Having AoE taunts and debuffs replacement effects, ie taunts that *feel* like you're GRABBING enemy attention instead of the changing tracking effect we have now // and making other classes like mages low damage high AoE spells shine, or supporting rouges high single target on bosses further, where warriors shouldnt be oneshotting but being a team player, making other teammates feel good and saving their butts from the high dmg bosses

3) Class identify for Mages without looking at the raw numbers, my impressions and improvements:

Fireball is in a good place thematically and effectivity wise, Whirlwind felt like a movement only spell to me for the longest time until I tried the point blank upgrade without the dash. As an AoE spell I like point blank but it is ALSO very viable to not upgrade either point blank OR the dash for a frontal AoE cone stun. It feels bad to be slow, it feels bad to blast away warriors pulls, it feels bad to pinch points on your meh skill to put into generic flavorless passives (more on that later). Lighting is just plainly a bad spell, it takes rouges high damage and crit role, slaps a low cooldowns on it, and tells you to sink ten levels of points for "BIG number more good" hurr durr. Terrible/10. Ice Bolt, if you're not pulling mobs 2+ at a time, usually when you're grinding a place solo and failing the damage check, you NEED the single target freeze to spam your low damage AoE spells on a boss level health trash mob, it's role shouldn't exist. The flip side of this is similar to why I dislike lighting, dealing high single target with a low cooldown makes what I call a spam mage, where you run fireballs with 3s cooldowns, lighting w/ 3s, and Ice w/ 3s and a skill of choice. This built has significantly more damage than other specs while ruining class identity. Lightning should be plain deleted, mana for damage conversion spells feel gross, while Ice Bolt should be a small wave, say frost breath, similar to the frontal attack un-upgraded Gale Force. Gale Force is tricky, its like a redundant Fireball and I don't have any solid improvements for it.

Whew okay, sheilds and heals

Sheilds first: it should be a warrior's job to keep aggro (not that it means much in the high DPS meta rn). That said Mage's sheilds would be a fantastic way to give allies a buff that mattered, perhaps not as strong as the individual shield of course, but people run pets for shields all the time and this would make mages feel better to play and useful when their damage output isn't the highest. Heals aren't worth discussing with pots sadly, put pots to auto and nobody cares.

In general a new buff is needed exclusive to the mage class, one idea Ive had is stun/slow resist instead of the philosophy of every class gets an ability to remove it. "Free Spirited" or the like, paired with a movement buff instead of as a Mage having to spam Gale Forces to stay up with your party, as well as improving class utility as support.
Please for the love of God rework Curse into a viable buff for your party!
Time Shift is alright, no need to fix what isn't broken, though I must say running in to drop a Clock as a Mage feels bad because you're taking Warrior's work and nessisitating to throw that out the window to use your spell

4) Class identify for Rouge without looking at the raw numbers, my impressions and improvements:

Shadow Piercer and Razor shield are cool.
SSS is mage's job, if this had a reduce hit chance by a % debuff instead of just damage and impact upgrades it would feel better, maybe a concussion swirl animation above heads :)
Aimed Shot... okay where do I begin? Increased crit chance makes me like this spell as I am a big fan of skills that aren't simply trade mana for damage, however that said this is what this spell is. Given that this is rouge this is actually fine in my books.. if noxious bolt wasn't the same exact spell. If noxious bolt was reworked into a DoT "bleed" spell that reapplied on basic attacks (reopen wounds) up to a maximum duration, this would be a far better feeling effect for feel reasons as above and making basic attacks more useful.

Shadow Veil could easily be reworked into one of the coolest skills, given that rouges are squishy, having an invincibility to aggro buff for 2-3 seconds with a critical buff would be stellar, debuffs should be warriors forte, group buffs sorcerer, and a self buff to not get killed and more damage is on theme for rouge

Entangling Trap has such a cool placement animation holy sh*t! Great work :)
From my playtesting of the skill the main use of it was to hope it proc'd the AoE mob pull and spam it, while running back and forth to hope it gets walked over. I like the skill it takes to have it trigger and area control, that's dope, but could be a hair larger area to pop and larger chance.

My MAIN theory-crafted idea for rouge is Wounds/ or bleed for simplicity. I would like to see wounds be rouges main gimmick, not exchanging mana for damage. Imagine a class based proc that would reapply based on skills, say the dagger leap between enemies or basic attacks under the reworked the Shadow Veil (now giving 2-3 seconds of invis crit %+) have a chance to proc bleed, razor shield keeps the Wound debuff timer frozen while in effect (since this proc chance should be hard to proc and maintaining means damage), with Noxious bolt (now bleed bolt or whatnot) would reset to the maximum cooldown. This would make rouges have high single target dps while requiring an active playstyle, like a mini game that isn't press Aimed Shot Nox Bolt and wait until you can trade mana for damage again.


PASSIVES

Having the same ones for each class is boring, they have the potential to be so much more, for example the long idea of the Wounds on rouges, instead of being small improvements to stats or gold luck for crying out loud, masteries and passives could be builts for classes. For example, a thorn proc for mage that makes the reworked party Shield buff into a thorn sheild, reflecting back a portion of damage. Or say "Menacing Aura" for Warriors, basic attacks while in Juggernaut have a chance to taunt! So many damn cool opportunities instead of more movement speed and 3% crit! Masteries should remain small improvements to your favorite skills like cooldown or mana cost, though some Masteries are definitely better than others honestly


For your average Joe who doesn't have millions or rich friends, making each class have a purpose/feel good to play/and effective TOGETHER would be much more an incentive to play in parties than class teams buffs. Having a unique build for your Toon would be the best thing that happened to this game, gear wouldn't need to have crazy procs to be relevant, but better stat procs as icing on the cake your character is, not the other way around. Your gear makes you, not your thought into how you spec'd your class. To recap my ideas are: Warrior's the one who helps keep everyone alive (with say aggro that changes to the highest dps so constant retaunts being useful) and debuffs, mages with buffs like sheilds etc and heals for a true support class feel (I don't even like pots period, feels bad to use like you're paying gold to play without a friend), and rouges with high dmg output and their wound DoT skills or otherwise, maybe a critical strike build. The conversation about class balance stems from the fact you don't have much incentive to play as a team if you have big number dmg, and some classes doing less damage than others (AS THEY SHOULD DAMMIT). If the classes worked together that raised the damage and effectiveness of the party as a whole there wouldn't be the bad feeling of "why am I playing this class if it sucks and is useless". Hence all the whining about this and that OP OP OP nerf nerf nerf. Balancing should come from class design first, items second. Love the game, any response if this is useful, considered, or unusable and why would be greatly appreciated Cinco :) This took a while to type haha

[Cheackezig]

Buff warrior in pvp


I see a lot of people with bad takes so I'll give my thoughts here. I don't have all the expensive proc gear, I just play all three classes and grinded them to 81 so your ordinary player's opinion for what it's worth

1) The experience of leveling is different than endgame by a whole lot, with not so good gear mages need to get carried through Misty Grotto, and simply do less damage than rouges. Aquarius changes Mages to be v strong. For warriors, with okay gear you do similar enough damage to an early mage... with WAY MORE damn survivability making the class feel way better. Rouges do the most damage but are squishy, I like where they are now, though they feel like superior mages until endgame

2) Class identify for Warrior without looking at the raw numbers, my impressions and improvements:
Warriors Juggernaut charged skill feels great to pull off, you "stand and deliver" massive sweeping cleaves and whirlwinds while being an absolute unit, it feels great.

The other skills are rather lackluster, for example the Axe throw pull is a good spell utility wise but not feel wise, you chuck something at an enemy and it dies from afar in grinding lvl areas, or it's just a single targeted meh damage ability. I would prefer this ability to fire two projectiles, pull, and debuff, while doing less damage, think "get over here" as a utility spell. Rallying Cry and Vengeful blood both feel like duplicates of Juggernaut while going against warriors feel, warriors should be tanking and debuffing, not third rate healing and recovering mana and health. Buffing should be part of the mages core identity, and maybe one skill in rouge's kit. Having AoE taunts and debuffs replacement effects, ie taunts that *feel* like you're GRABBING enemy attention instead of the changing tracking effect we have now // and making other classes like mages low damage high AoE spells shine, or supporting rouges high single target on bosses further, where warriors shouldnt be oneshotting but being a team player, making other teammates feel good and saving their butts from the high dmg bosses

3) Class identify for Mages without looking at the raw numbers, my impressions and improvements:

Fireball is in a good place thematically and effectivity wise, Whirlwind felt like a movement only spell to me for the longest time until I tried the point blank upgrade without the dash. As an AoE spell I like point blank but it is ALSO very viable to not upgrade either point blank OR the dash for a frontal AoE cone stun. It feels bad to be slow, it feels bad to blast away warriors pulls, it feels bad to pinch points on your meh skill to put into generic flavorless passives (more on that later). Lighting is just plainly a bad spell, it takes rouges high damage and crit role, slaps a low cooldowns on it, and tells you to sink ten levels of points for "BIG number more good" hurr durr. Terrible/10. Ice Bolt, if you're not pulling mobs 2+ at a time, usually when you're grinding a place solo and failing the damage check, you NEED the single target freeze to spam your low damage AoE spells on a boss level health trash mob, it's role shouldn't exist. The flip side of this is similar to why I dislike lighting, dealing high single target with a low cooldown makes what I call a spam mage, where you run fireballs with 3s cooldowns, lighting w/ 3s, and Ice w/ 3s and a skill of choice. This built has significantly more damage than other specs while ruining class identity. Lightning should be plain deleted, mana for damage conversion spells feel gross, while Ice Bolt should be a small wave, say frost breath, similar to the frontal attack un-upgraded Gale Force. Gale Force is tricky, its like a redundant Fireball and I don't have any solid improvements for it.

Whew okay, sheilds and heals

Sheilds first: it should be a warrior's job to keep aggro (not that it means much in the high DPS meta rn). That said Mage's sheilds would be a fantastic way to give allies a buff that mattered, perhaps not as strong as the individual shield of course, but people run pets for shields all the time and this would make mages feel better to play and useful when their damage output isn't the highest. Heals aren't worth discussing with pots sadly, put pots to auto and nobody cares.

In general a new buff is needed exclusive to the mage class, one idea Ive had is stun/slow resist instead of the philosophy of every class gets an ability to remove it. "Free Spirited" or the like, paired with a movement buff instead of as a Mage having to spam Gale Forces to stay up with your party, as well as improving class utility as support.
Please for the love of God rework Curse into a viable buff for your party!
Time Shift is alright, no need to fix what isn't broken, though I must say running in to drop a Clock as a Mage feels bad because you're taking Warrior's work and nessisitating to throw that out the window to use your spell

4) Class identify for Rouge without looking at the raw numbers, my impressions and improvements:

Shadow Piercer and Razor shield are cool.
SSS is mage's job, if this had a reduce hit chance by a % debuff instead of just damage and impact upgrades it would feel better, maybe a concussion swirl animation above heads :)
Aimed Shot... okay where do I begin? Increased crit chance makes me like this spell as I am a big fan of skills that aren't simply trade mana for damage, however that said this is what this spell is. Given that this is rouge this is actually fine in my books.. if noxious bolt wasn't the same exact spell. If noxious bolt was reworked into a DoT "bleed" spell that reapplied on basic attacks (reopen wounds) up to a maximum duration, this would be a far better feeling effect for feel reasons as above and making basic attacks more useful.

Shadow Veil could easily be reworked into one of the coolest skills, given that rouges are squishy, having an invincibility to aggro buff for 2-3 seconds with a critical buff would be stellar, debuffs should be warriors forte, group buffs sorcerer, and a self buff to not get killed and more damage is on theme for rouge

Entangling Trap has such a cool placement animation holy sh*t! Great work :)
From my playtesting of the skill the main use of it was to hope it proc'd the AoE mob pull and spam it, while running back and forth to hope it gets walked over. I like the skill it takes to have it trigger and area control, that's dope, but could be a hair larger area to pop and larger chance.

My MAIN theory-crafted idea for rouge is Wounds/ or bleed for simplicity. I would like to see wounds be rouges main gimmick, not exchanging mana for damage. Imagine a class based proc that would reapply based on skills, say the dagger leap between enemies or basic attacks under the reworked the Shadow Veil (now giving 2-3 seconds of invis crit %+) have a chance to proc bleed, razor shield keeps the Wound debuff timer frozen while in effect (since this proc chance should be hard to proc and maintaining means damage), with Noxious bolt (now bleed bolt or whatnot) would reset to the maximum cooldown. This would make rouges have high single target dps while requiring an active playstyle, like a mini game that isn't press Aimed Shot Nox Bolt and wait until you can trade mana for damage again.


PASSIVES

Having the same ones for each class is boring, they have the potential to be so much more, for example the long idea of the Wounds on rouges, instead of being small improvements to stats or gold luck for crying out loud, masteries and passives could be builts for classes. For example, a thorn proc for mage that makes the reworked party Shield buff into a thorn sheild, reflecting back a portion of damage. Or say "Menacing Aura" for Warriors, basic attacks while in Juggernaut have a chance to taunt! So many damn cool opportunities instead of more movement speed and 3% crit! Masteries should remain small improvements to your favorite skills like cooldown or mana cost, though some Masteries are definitely better than others honestly


For your average Joe who doesn't have millions or rich friends, making each class have a purpose/feel good to play/and effective TOGETHER would be much more an incentive to play in parties than class teams buffs. Having a unique build for your Toon would be the best thing that happened to this game, gear wouldn't need to have crazy procs to be relevant, but better stat procs as icing on the cake your character is, not the other way around. Your gear makes you, not your thought into how you spec'd your class. To recap my ideas are: Warrior's the one who helps keep everyone alive (with say aggro that changes to the highest dps so constant retaunts being useful) and debuffs, mages with buffs like sheilds etc and heals for a true support class feel (I don't even like pots period, feels bad to use like you're paying gold to play without a friend), and rouges with high dmg output and their wound DoT skills or otherwise, maybe a critical strike build. The conversation about class balance stems from the fact you don't have much incentive to play as a team if you have big number dmg, and some classes doing less damage than others (AS THEY SHOULD DAMMIT). If the classes worked together that raised the damage and effectiveness of the party as a whole there wouldn't be the bad feeling of "why am I playing this class if it sucks and is useless". Hence all the whining about this and that OP OP OP nerf nerf nerf. Balancing should come from class design first, items second. Love the game, any response if this is useful, considered, or unusable and why would be greatly appreciated Cinco :) This took a while to type haha

I don't think you understand warrior skills bruv...

Axe throw "meh damage"!??? It's the highest dealing skill a warrior has and one you can't miss in any loadout.

Venge and rally cry jugg duplicates??? Vengeful cry is way different as makes you a damage dealing monster instead of a tanking boi, and rally cry is a war tank skill based on armor, not health and rally cry is a skill for team based play while jugg works on yourself.

Learn the class before discussing it's balance thanks

[Theroumag]

I don't think you understand warrior skills bruv...

Axe throw "meh damage"!??? It's the highest dealing skill a warrior has and one you can't miss in any loadout.

Venge and rally cry jugg duplicates??? Vengeful cry is way different as makes you a damage dealing monster instead of a tanking boi, and rally cry is a war tank skill based on armor, not health and rally cry is a skill for team based play while jugg works on yourself.

Learn the class before discussing it's balance thanks

None of what you said changed my stance, Axe through does the most damage on Warrior, compare to rouge's Aimed shot. The difference between cleave and Axe are not that massive.
Vengeful definitely is a strong buff, it's role is similar to Jugg, both make you more survivable, with Blood trading 40% dmg reduction for large damage. Both are an "I activate my rage" skill.

Rallying Cry is in the same vein of buffing, not as much of a similar skill as Jugg/Blood admittedly. I'm going to make a different thread for this with revisions as this was a quick brain dump of ideas

[Theroumag]

None of what you said changed my stance, Axe through does the most damage on Warrior, compare to rouge's Aimed shot. The difference between cleave and Axe are not that massive.
Vengeful definitely is a strong buff, it's role is similar to Jugg, both make you more survivable, with Blood trading 40% dmg reduction for large damage. Both are an "I activate my rage" skill.

Rallying Cry is in the same vein of buffing, not as much of a similar skill as Jugg/Blood admittedly. I'm going to make a different thread for this with revisions as this was a quick brain dump of ideas

I noticed I can't open new threads so here it is
Apologies about the wall of text

The experience of leveling is vastly different for those with mythic gear and without. Legendary geared mages need to get carried through Misty Grotto, and simply do less damage than rouges. Warriors, with okay gear early game do similar enough damage to an early mage... with much MORE damn survivability, and Rouges do good damage midgame and later, but die to groups of mobs. Each class has it's weaknesses and needs each other.. or that's how it should be. I want to talk about class identity and balance, I'll talk about skills first and balancing later as skills are more interesting

1) Warrior:
Warriors Juggernaut charged skill feels great to pull off, you "stand and deliver" massive sweeping cleaves and whirlwinds while being an absolute unit, it feels great... or it would if you couldn't just sip health pots like an addict

His other skills are rather lackluster when it comes to class fantasy/feel

For example the Axe throw, you chuck something at an enemy and it dies from afar in grinding lvl areas, or it's just a single targeted alright damage ability. This is a problem, I would prefer this ability to fire a projectile that pops into an AoE area in which mobs are pulled + debuffed while doing less damage and having slightly shorter range, becoming a full utility spell, a "get over here"

Rallying Cry makes Warriors more of a support class than Mage, which would work better as an "Intimidating Battlecry" debuffing enemies. Curse simply put should be given to Warrior reskinned, with a thematic buff

Vengeful blood feels like a second Juggernaut. Ideally Warriors should be tanking and debuffing, instead of being more of a support class than Mage. Buffing should be part of the mages core identity, and maybe one skill in rouge's kit. In order to make taunts feel meaningful I don't see how that's possible without mobs locking on the way they do. Perhaps switching to highest threat level, ie biggest damaging character.

Having debuffs for warrior classes like mages low damage high AoE spells shine, or supporting rouges high single target on bosses further, where warriors shouldnt be oneshotting but being a team player, making other teammates feel good and saving their butts from the high dmg bosses. As well as allowing mobs to be much stronger, a mobs killing us problem, not an us killing them problem. Something that requires teamwork, debuffs and buffs from classes that have a bigger importance than crazy strong gear procs

2) Mages:

Fireball is in a good place thematically and effectivity wise

Whirlwind felt like a movement only spell to me for the longest time until I tried the point blank upgrade without the dash. As an AoE spell I like point blank but it is ALSO very viable to not upgrade either point blank OR the dash for a frontal AoE cone stun. It feels bad to be slow, it feels bad to blast away warriors pulls with point blank, and it feels bad to pinch points on your meh skill to put into generic flavorless passives (more on that later).

Lighting is just plainly a bad spell, it takes rouges high damage and crit role, slaps a low cooldowns on it, and tells you to sink ten levels of points for a spell that doesn't have a role outside of what rouge should be doing. There is no rouge buff to have a crit skill payoff on other classes either

Ice Bolt, I've only found myself using this to freeze on a boss level health trash mob in Zodias, it's role shouldn't exist for the same reason as Lightning, high single target with a low cooldown. Often because of this I run what I call a spam mage, where you run fireballs with 3s cooldowns, lighting w/ 3s, and Ice w/ 3s and a skill of choice. This built has significantly more damage than other specs while ruining class identity. Lightning should be plain deleted, mana for damage conversion spells feel gross, while Ice Bolt should be a small wave, say frost breath, similar to the frontal attack un-upgraded Gale Force. Gale Force is tricky, its like a redundant Fireball and I don't have any solid improvements for it.

Whew okay, sheilds and heals

Sheilds first: it should be a warrior's job to keep aggro (not that it means much in the high DPS meta + how mobs lock on rn). That said Mage's sheilds would be a fantastic way to give allies a buff that mattered, perhaps not as strong as the individual shield as it is rn of course, but people run pets for shields all the time this would make mages feel better to play and useful when their damage output isn't the highest. Heals aren't worth discussing with pots sadly, put pots to auto and nobody cares.

In general a new buff is needed exclusive to the mage class, one idea Ive had is stun/slow resist instead of the philosophy of every class gets an ability to remove it. "Free Spirited" or the like, paired with a movement buff instead of as a Mage having to spam Gale Forces to stay up with your party, as well as improving class utility as support.
Please for the love of God rework Curse into a viable buff for your party!
Time Shift is alright, no need to fix what isn't broken, though I must say running in to drop a Clock as a Mage feels bad because you're taking Warrior's work and nessisitating to throw that out the window to use your spell

3) Rouge:

Shadow Piercer and Razor shield are cool.

SSS is mage's job, if this had a reduce hit chance by a % debuff upgrade instead of just damage and impact radius upgrades it would feel better, maybe a concussion swirl animation above heads :)

Aimed Shot... okay where do I begin? Increased crit chance makes me like this spell as I am a big fan of skills that aren't simply trade mana for damage, however that said this is what this spell is. Given that this is rouge this is actually fine in my books.. if noxious bolt wasn't the same exact spell. If noxious bolt was reworked into a DoT "bleed" spell that reapplied on basic attacks (reopen wounds) up to a maximum duration, this would be a far better feeling effect for feel reasons as above and making basic attacks more useful.

Shadow Veil could easily be reworked into one of the coolest skills, given that rouges are squishy, having an invincibility to aggro buff for 2-3 seconds with a critical buff would be stellar, debuffs should be warriors forte, group buffs sorcerer, and a self buff to not get killed and more damage is on theme for rouge

Entangling Trap has such a cool placement animation holy sh*t! Great work :)
From my playtesting of the skill the main use of it was to hope it proc'd the AoE mob pull and spam it, while running back and forth to hope it gets walked over. I like the skill it takes to have it trigger and area control, that's dope, but could be a hair larger area to pop and larger chance. Good option for wound proc, which I'll outline rn

My MAIN theory-crafted idea for rouge is Wounds/ or bleed for simplicity. I would like to see wounds be rouges main gimmick, not exchanging mana for damage. Imagine a class based proc that would reapply based on skills, say the dagger leap between enemies or basic attacks under the reworked the Shadow Veil (now giving 2-3 seconds of invis crit %+) have a chance to proc "wound"/better bleed, razor shield keeps the Wound debuff timer frozen while in effect (since this proc chance should be hard to proc and maintaining means damage), with Noxious bolt (now bleed bolt or whatnot) would reset to the maximum cooldown. This would make rouges have high single target dps while requiring an active playstyle, like a mini game that isn't press Aimed Shot Nox Bolt and wait until you can trade mana for damage again.


PASSIVES

Having the same ones for each class is boring, they have the potential to be so much more, for example the long idea of the Wounds on rouges, instead of being small improvements to stats or gold luck for crying out loud, masteries and passives could be builts for classes. For example, a thorn proc for mage that makes the reworked party Shield buff into a thorn sheild, reflecting back a portion of damage. Or say "Menacing Aura" for Warriors, basic attacks while in Juggernaut have a chance to taunt (better pulling aggro suggestions)! So many damn cool opportunities instead of more movement speed and 3% crit! Masteries should remain small improvements to your favorite skills like cooldown or mana cost, though some Masteries are definitely better than others honestly


For your average Joe who doesn't have millions or rich friends, making each class have a purpose/feel good to play/and effective TOGETHER would be much more an incentive to play in parties than class teams buffs. Having a unique build for your Toon would be the best thing that happened to this game, gear wouldn't need to have crazy procs to be relevant, but better stat procs as icing on the cake your character is, not the other way around. Maybe even sets of gear making your wound/bleed rouge have longer duration for the affliction, larger range for AoE as mage etc. As of now your gear makes you, not your thought into how you spec'd your class.

To recap my ideas are: Warrior's the one who helps keep everyone alive (threat targeting needed here for relevance) and debuffs to make their for their should be lackluster damage, mages with buffs like sheilds etc and heals for a true support class feel (I don't even like pots period, feels bad to use like you're paying gold to play without a friend) + AoE clearing that Warrior pulls, and Rouges with high dmg output and their wound DoT skills or otherwise, maybe a critical strike build.

The conversation about class balance stems from the fact you don't have much incentive to play as a team if you have big number dmg, and some classes doing less damage than others (AS THEY SHOULD). If the classes worked together in a way that raised the damage and effectiveness of the party as a whole there wouldn't be the bad feeling of "why am I playing this class if it sucks and is useless". Hence all the whining about this and that OP OP OP nerf nerf nerf. Balancing should come from class design first, items second. Love the game, any response if this is useful, considered, or unusable and why would be greatly appreciated

[Cheackezig]

I noticed I can't open new threads so here it is
Apologies about the wall of text

The experience of leveling is vastly different for those with mythic gear and without. Legendary geared mages need to get carried through Misty Grotto, and simply do less damage than rouges. Warriors, with okay gear early game do similar enough damage to an early mage... with much MORE damn survivability, and Rouges do good damage midgame and later, but die to groups of mobs. Each class has it's weaknesses and needs each other.. or that's how it should be. I want to talk about class identity and balance, I'll talk about skills first and balancing later as skills are more interesting

1) Warrior:
Warriors Juggernaut charged skill feels great to pull off, you "stand and deliver" massive sweeping cleaves and whirlwinds while being an absolute unit, it feels great... or it would if you couldn't just sip health pots like an addict

His other skills are rather lackluster when it comes to class fantasy/feel

For example the Axe throw, you chuck something at an enemy and it dies from afar in grinding lvl areas, or it's just a single targeted alright damage ability. This is a problem, I would prefer this ability to fire a projectile that pops into an AoE area in which mobs are pulled + debuffed while doing less damage and having slightly shorter range, becoming a full utility spell, a "get over here"

Rallying Cry makes Warriors more of a support class than Mage, which would work better as an "Intimidating Battlecry" debuffing enemies. Curse simply put should be given to Warrior reskinned, with a thematic buff

Vengeful blood feels like a second Juggernaut. Ideally Warriors should be tanking and debuffing, instead of being more of a support class than Mage. Buffing should be part of the mages core identity, and maybe one skill in rouge's kit. In order to make taunts feel meaningful I don't see how that's possible without mobs locking on the way they do. Perhaps switching to highest threat level, ie biggest damaging character.

Having debuffs for warrior classes like mages low damage high AoE spells shine, or supporting rouges high single target on bosses further, where warriors shouldnt be oneshotting but being a team player, making other teammates feel good and saving their butts from the high dmg bosses. As well as allowing mobs to be much stronger, a mobs killing us problem, not an us killing them problem. Something that requires teamwork, debuffs and buffs from classes that have a bigger importance than crazy strong gear procs

2) Mages:

Fireball is in a good place thematically and effectivity wise

Whirlwind felt like a movement only spell to me for the longest time until I tried the point blank upgrade without the dash. As an AoE spell I like point blank but it is ALSO very viable to not upgrade either point blank OR the dash for a frontal AoE cone stun. It feels bad to be slow, it feels bad to blast away warriors pulls with point blank, and it feels bad to pinch points on your meh skill to put into generic flavorless passives (more on that later).

Lighting is just plainly a bad spell, it takes rouges high damage and crit role, slaps a low cooldowns on it, and tells you to sink ten levels of points for a spell that doesn't have a role outside of what rouge should be doing. There is no rouge buff to have a crit skill payoff on other classes either

Ice Bolt, I've only found myself using this to freeze on a boss level health trash mob in Zodias, it's role shouldn't exist for the same reason as Lightning, high single target with a low cooldown. Often because of this I run what I call a spam mage, where you run fireballs with 3s cooldowns, lighting w/ 3s, and Ice w/ 3s and a skill of choice. This built has significantly more damage than other specs while ruining class identity. Lightning should be plain deleted, mana for damage conversion spells feel gross, while Ice Bolt should be a small wave, say frost breath, similar to the frontal attack un-upgraded Gale Force. Gale Force is tricky, its like a redundant Fireball and I don't have any solid improvements for it.

Whew okay, sheilds and heals

Sheilds first: it should be a warrior's job to keep aggro (not that it means much in the high DPS meta + how mobs lock on rn). That said Mage's sheilds would be a fantastic way to give allies a buff that mattered, perhaps not as strong as the individual shield as it is rn of course, but people run pets for shields all the time this would make mages feel better to play and useful when their damage output isn't the highest. Heals aren't worth discussing with pots sadly, put pots to auto and nobody cares.

In general a new buff is needed exclusive to the mage class, one idea Ive had is stun/slow resist instead of the philosophy of every class gets an ability to remove it. "Free Spirited" or the like, paired with a movement buff instead of as a Mage having to spam Gale Forces to stay up with your party, as well as improving class utility as support.
Please for the love of God rework Curse into a viable buff for your party!
Time Shift is alright, no need to fix what isn't broken, though I must say running in to drop a Clock as a Mage feels bad because you're taking Warrior's work and nessisitating to throw that out the window to use your spell

3) Rouge:

Shadow Piercer and Razor shield are cool.

SSS is mage's job, if this had a reduce hit chance by a % debuff upgrade instead of just damage and impact radius upgrades it would feel better, maybe a concussion swirl animation above heads :)

Aimed Shot... okay where do I begin? Increased crit chance makes me like this spell as I am a big fan of skills that aren't simply trade mana for damage, however that said this is what this spell is. Given that this is rouge this is actually fine in my books.. if noxious bolt wasn't the same exact spell. If noxious bolt was reworked into a DoT "bleed" spell that reapplied on basic attacks (reopen wounds) up to a maximum duration, this would be a far better feeling effect for feel reasons as above and making basic attacks more useful.

Shadow Veil could easily be reworked into one of the coolest skills, given that rouges are squishy, having an invincibility to aggro buff for 2-3 seconds with a critical buff would be stellar, debuffs should be warriors forte, group buffs sorcerer, and a self buff to not get killed and more damage is on theme for rouge

Entangling Trap has such a cool placement animation holy sh*t! Great work :)
From my playtesting of the skill the main use of it was to hope it proc'd the AoE mob pull and spam it, while running back and forth to hope it gets walked over. I like the skill it takes to have it trigger and area control, that's dope, but could be a hair larger area to pop and larger chance. Good option for wound proc, which I'll outline rn

My MAIN theory-crafted idea for rouge is Wounds/ or bleed for simplicity. I would like to see wounds be rouges main gimmick, not exchanging mana for damage. Imagine a class based proc that would reapply based on skills, say the dagger leap between enemies or basic attacks under the reworked the Shadow Veil (now giving 2-3 seconds of invis crit %+) have a chance to proc "wound"/better bleed, razor shield keeps the Wound debuff timer frozen while in effect (since this proc chance should be hard to proc and maintaining means damage), with Noxious bolt (now bleed bolt or whatnot) would reset to the maximum cooldown. This would make rouges have high single target dps while requiring an active playstyle, like a mini game that isn't press Aimed Shot Nox Bolt and wait until you can trade mana for damage again.


PASSIVES

Having the same ones for each class is boring, they have the potential to be so much more, for example the long idea of the Wounds on rouges, instead of being small improvements to stats or gold luck for crying out loud, masteries and passives could be builts for classes. For example, a thorn proc for mage that makes the reworked party Shield buff into a thorn sheild, reflecting back a portion of damage. Or say "Menacing Aura" for Warriors, basic attacks while in Juggernaut have a chance to taunt (better pulling aggro suggestions)! So many damn cool opportunities instead of more movement speed and 3% crit! Masteries should remain small improvements to your favorite skills like cooldown or mana cost, though some Masteries are definitely better than others honestly


For your average Joe who doesn't have millions or rich friends, making each class have a purpose/feel good to play/and effective TOGETHER would be much more an incentive to play in parties than class teams buffs. Having a unique build for your Toon would be the best thing that happened to this game, gear wouldn't need to have crazy procs to be relevant, but better stat procs as icing on the cake your character is, not the other way around. Maybe even sets of gear making your wound/bleed rouge have longer duration for the affliction, larger range for AoE as mage etc. As of now your gear makes you, not your thought into how you spec'd your class.

To recap my ideas are: Warrior's the one who helps keep everyone alive (threat targeting needed here for relevance) and debuffs to make their for their should be lackluster damage, mages with buffs like sheilds etc and heals for a true support class feel (I don't even like pots period, feels bad to use like you're paying gold to play without a friend) + AoE clearing that Warrior pulls, and Rouges with high dmg output and their wound DoT skills or otherwise, maybe a critical strike build.

The conversation about class balance stems from the fact you don't have much incentive to play as a team if you have big number dmg, and some classes doing less damage than others (AS THEY SHOULD). If the classes worked together in a way that raised the damage and effectiveness of the party as a whole there wouldn't be the bad feeling of "why am I playing this class if it sucks and is useless". Hence all the whining about this and that OP OP OP nerf nerf nerf. Balancing should come from class design first, items second. Love the game, any response if this is useful, considered, or unusable and why would be greatly appreciated

1. Kind of an unrelated point but please for the love of god it's ROGUE not rouge

2. If you can't understand that juggernout, vengeful blood and rallying cry are different and have different uses then you're doing something wrong. You have multiple different moments where the different skills are needed, there is no need to revamp them. You're looking at the skills only from a weak pve standpoint but what if you got strong gears or if you pvp? Then you'll take a whole different approach and skills like axe throw are insanely useful. If you got strong enough gears, vengeful blood is a way better option then juggernout as you can just tank damage without jugg and instead focus on dealing even more damage yourself.
And think about solo players, if a war is supposed to tank only how is a war supposed to level without friends? I already encountered that as a solo warrior certain areas where impossible to beat (I'm looking at you, dreamscape boss with the insane regeneration), so taking the ability to actually deal damage away from a war is kinda forcing the warrior to be a "I need a team" only class.

3. I agree with that the gameplay is more important then the crazy procs, but that is just a problem with mythic weapons in itself. The appearance of mythic weapons threw every balance we had off the charts. Pvp, festerfang outpost, pve all have totally changed the gameplay we've had, and made certain playstyles way harder or just annoying (like mob clearing) while slaying bosses is now a cakewalk. That isn't because of the class skills, but the unnessecary overpoweredness of the new mythic weapons and the damage buff every class has been given.


In short, don't change up the skills. It's an idea that 1. won't happen since it'll change the game upside down too much and 2. is not nessecary since the fault doesn't lie in the skills.

[dualray]

Back in the watcher tomb day, it was pretty balanced where we have warrior tank in the front and taunt mobs, we have mage do controls of mobs and rogue so major kills.

I missed it; it was real team works


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[Theroumag]

1. Kind of an unrelated point but please for the love of god it's ROGUE not rouge

2. If you can't understand that juggernout, vengeful blood and rallying cry are different and have different uses then you're doing something wrong. You have multiple different moments where the different skills are needed, there is no need to revamp them. You're looking at the skills only from a weak pve standpoint but what if you got strong gears or if you pvp? Then you'll take a whole different approach and skills like axe throw are insanely useful. If you got strong enough gears, vengeful blood is a way better option then juggernout as you can just tank damage without jugg and instead focus on dealing even more damage yourself.
And think about solo players, if a war is supposed to tank only how is a war supposed to level without friends? I already encountered that as a solo warrior certain areas where impossible to beat (I'm looking at you, dreamscape boss with the insane regeneration), so taking the ability to actually deal damage away from a war is kinda forcing the warrior to be a "I need a team" only class.

3. I agree with that the gameplay is more important then the crazy procs, but that is just a problem with mythic weapons in itself. The appearance of mythic weapons threw every balance we had off the charts. Pvp, festerfang outpost, pve all have totally changed the gameplay we've had, and made certain playstyles way harder or just annoying (like mob clearing) while slaying bosses is now a cakewalk. That isn't because of the class skills, but the unnessecary overpoweredness of the new mythic weapons and the damage buff every class has been given.


In short, don't change up the skills. It's an idea that 1. won't happen since it'll change the game upside down too much and 2. is not nessecary since the fault doesn't lie in the skills.


I replied to another warrior saying a similar thing about Jugg/Blood and i call them the same based on feel, but you've convinced me that they have their purpose, I like the idea of Juggernaut more than I do a raw powerup + pots late game, if Venge was a Curse-ish meaning your power scales with the attack you take it would be cooler and better thematically. I wasn't clear enough I guess that I want warrior to be a debuff class. Ideally all classes should be party-only classes with actual weaknesses, warriors should be tanks and debuffs relying on Mage and Rogue (haha), Mages AoE and buffs to raise up damage of warrior and clear trash mobs while not excelling at clearing bosses or tanking if you could imagine that lol, and of course Rogue (heh) being great at bosses but getting overwhelmed by hordes of mobs.

You bring up Endgame and PvP, my suggestions would exactly help this in particular as there would be synergy, instead of some classes melting mobs more efficient than another. I would personally enjoy giving my teammate a huge damage boost and have them be a god on the battlefield from our teamwork than gears with a price tag. Take away the mythic weapons I still maintain that these changes would make the game more balanced that A) each class has a valuable role making the weaknesses reasons to party up. B) More diversity in build letting people have the playstyle they enjoy C) A good avenue to add new gears that are good because of the playstyle diversity they add/enable instead of being good bc of procs. I'm trying to kill two birds with one stone here. That said, if the overall power level of the individual falls while the pl of the group rises mobs that are fun to clear because it's an actual task, that requires some thought (hopefully we see some better mob design lol) will no longer be boring, and bosses won't be obliterated on sight, not without friends. This is an MMO, solo leveling shouldn't be the norm. When it comes to balancing for PvP, it should be considered later, and the content first. That said, PvP as a team with a tank debuffing enemies, mages hitting 2 for 1 fireballs on the debuffed guys, etc is more fun than individually tuning each class to be self sufficient. Thanks for reading and the reply Cheackezig 👍

[Theroumag]

I replied to another warrior saying a similar thing about Jugg/Blood and i call them the same based on feel, but you've convinced me that they have their purpose, I like the idea of Juggernaut more than I do a raw powerup + pots late game, if Venge was a Curse-ish meaning your power scales with the attack you take it would be cooler and better thematically. I wasn't clear enough I guess that I want warrior to be a debuff class. Ideally all classes should be party-only classes with actual weaknesses, warriors should be tanks and debuffs relying on Mage and Rogue (haha), Mages AoE and buffs to raise up damage of warrior and clear trash mobs while not excelling at clearing bosses or tanking if you could imagine that lol, and of course Rogue (heh) being great at bosses but getting overwhelmed by hordes of mobs.

You bring up Endgame and PvP, my suggestions would exactly help this in particular as there would be synergy, instead of some classes melting mobs more efficient than another. I would personally enjoy giving my teammate a huge damage boost and have them be a god on the battlefield from our teamwork than gears with a price tag. Take away the mythic weapons I still maintain that these changes would make the game more balanced that A) each class has a valuable role making the weaknesses reasons to party up. B) More diversity in build letting people have the playstyle they enjoy C) A good avenue to add new gears that are good because of the playstyle diversity they add/enable instead of being good bc of procs. I'm trying to kill two birds with one stone here. That said, if the overall power level of the individual falls while the pl of the group rises mobs that are fun to clear because it's an actual task, that requires some thought (hopefully we see some better mob design lol) will no longer be boring, and bosses won't be obliterated on sight, not without friends. This is an MMO, solo leveling shouldn't be the norm. When it comes to balancing for PvP, it should be considered later, and the content first. That said, PvP as a team with a tank debuffing enemies, mages hitting 2 for 1 fireballs on the debuffed guys, etc is more fun than individually tuning each class to be self sufficient. Thanks for reading and the reply Cheackezig 👍

That said if anyone else has feedback on the other Mage and Rogue changes that would be appreciated. Cheackezig, you said that this would upheave the game too much, the team is already working on a skill revamp, it was mentioned in a different thread. I'm throwing out my pov 🤷

[Theroumag]

Aquarius's icon cooldown for Mage would be perfect to build upon for buffs from parties with icons, vs the small 25% damage elixir etc

[Tekila]

I think that a great idea right now about the game is to add a new game mode for timed elite maps based on GW2 timed dungeon where you have to clean a portion of mobs and all bosses to clear the map also in this mod add buffs for the maps every time they get a lvl on the map like upgrading keys in wow that would create a game where team play and strat is needed. Something we have to know is that we don’t play solo because our characters are too op, we play solo because the game doesn’t need us to play in party except if we want to finish the map faster.

Adding 2 specialisations for each class can be fun too like depending on the weappon used you change your playstyle, rogue is fun for me it has 2 specs like Pisces for cleaning mobs and Mariano for bosses, anyways it is a pure dmg class that can clear mobs and kill bosses.

War can be given a tanky weappon (shield) that helps him take dmg, keep agro and cleave dmg (the ebon aegis was a good exemple of it or the skull axe and aegis). And a all out one as sword or axe that deals more single damages output but only single target taunting too for boss.

Idk what can be fun for mage I never played it.

Another possibility is a rework of the game to giving people a 5th active spell or more passives not related to gear. But the unique gearing system is something I like in arcane like depending on your gear you have another gameplay.


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[shadowronn]

Or we could start over from scratch with a new AL 2.0 game, so we do t have this giant mess of endgame.


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I feel like this would kinda have the implications of deflation, if you know what all happens then people would not act the way they normally would. People would hold on to rarities because they know it'll go up in price and all that. AL 2.0 but only game mechanics and stuff would be nice, new non-recycled vanities and pets and stuff so people play the way they are supposed to.

[Immortal_Blood]

Ayyy buff taunt for warriors arooo buff taunt for warriors arooo

Also.. this thread is very important …please respect.

I’ll see u in honovr pvp, soon.

[profmsb]

its like evg rn...just try play rndom elite sunken...if no mythic war..took long time to kill mb n boss...if only two plyer but have mythic war...much fastest to clear the map that full 4 pt without mythic war...just wait n see few month later..it will be like old evg...

[Tekila]

its like evg rn...just try play rndom elite sunken...if no mythic war..took long time to kill mb n boss...if only two plyer but have mythic war...much fastest to clear the map that full 4 pt without mythic war...just wait n see few month later..it will be like old evg...

Actually the faster way to clean elite sunken is having wars with mythic yes better having both for killing boss for sure.
But I’ll explain you that warrior is difficult and situational when you play it.
On one hand it is not just having some random wars you need a « GOOD » war with decent gear and mephisto or heroic tad or arcane wereweger slots on arcane ability first. Second you need the war to charge his ultimate even if it’s so hard to clean mobs for warrior. Third he has to time perfectly his mythic weapon proc, his VB if he needs it, his ultimate and the AA of the pet. Fourth and finally he has to hit the boss with the mythic proc.
It is not an easy process that every war can do you have contraints of gear, proc and ability timing, you also have to hit the target cause you can miss on the game due to random reasons.

On the other hand mage and rogue mythic weapons are really fun and enjoyable. They both have one for cleaving damage that gives dmg augmentation buff and one for single damage output that deals massive dmg to single target when warrior only has two for single target damage (Polaris has a bit of AOE dmg but nothing really useful for cleaning), both rogue and mage has easier procs uses than warrior’s one on mythic but warrior players just try to find a way to make it usable.
Now the reason why warriors are performing well on élite zodias especially sunk fleet is that the zone is about mini boss and boss killing and they just decided to make the warrior a boss killer with 2 mythic weapons with that purpose it is not that they are good it is that they find a way to use what they are given.

I played with some rogues and mage with 2k dex and intel and they are truly performing far better than warriors on mini boss killing, also they didn’t really need my intervention as a warrior to kill the boss in 30 sec with their mythics.


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[Immortal_Blood]

Actually the faster way to clean elite sunken is having wars with mythic yes better having both for killing boss for sure.
But I’ll explain you that warrior is difficult and situational when you play it.
On one hand it is not just having some random wars you need a « GOOD » war with decent gear and mephisto or heroic tad or arcane wereweger slots on arcane ability first. Second you need the war to charge his ultimate even if it’s so hard to clean mobs for warrior. Third he has to time perfectly his mythic weapon proc, his VB if he needs it, his ultimate and the AA of the pet. Fourth and finally he has to hit the boss with the mythic proc.
It is not an easy process that every war can do you have contraints of gear, proc and ability timing, you also have to hit the target cause you can miss on the game due to random reasons.

On the other hand mage and rogue mythic weapons are really fun and enjoyable. They both have one for cleaving damage that gives dmg augmentation buff and one for single damage output that deals massive dmg to single target when warrior only has two for single target damage (Polaris has a bit of AOE dmg but nothing really useful for cleaning), both rogue and mage has easier procs uses than warrior’s one on mythic but warrior players just try to find a way to make it usable.
Now the reason why warriors are performing well on élite zodias especially sunk fleet is that the zone is about mini boss and boss killing and they just decided to make the warrior a boss killer with 2 mythic weapons with that purpose it is not that they are good it is that they find a way to use what they are given.

I played with some rogues and mage with 2k dex and intel and they are truly performing far better than warriors on mini boss killing, also they didn’t really need my intervention as a warrior to kill the boss in 30 sec with their mythics.


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mage and rogue are more enjoyable for me to play.. since my team keeps dying when i play as waarrior, im mehhhhhhhhhhhhh DELeteeee!!

[Tekila]

mage and rogue are more enjoyable for me to play.. since my team keeps dying when i play as waarrior, im mehhhhhhhhhhhhh DELeteeee!!

Glad to hear that I specially love mage rn cause of the combo procs that it allows it is the FUN gameplay for arcane legends actually, rogue’s Pisces is really cool to.


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[tapsykrete]

for me, i think we need new skill or new set of skill, instead of always have new proc for gear or weapon that always hard for dev to make balanced for each class,
why not make the skill more useful, like u can combo your skill from 1, 2 to 3 skill, then make something big impact or give high damage, aoe, heal or shield effects etc. for each class.
so maybe the stun,dodge, taunt, tick, reflect, etc make more useful too. (like u can cancel the combo when u get stun.)
then make the weapon/gear give some useful skill like in arcane bow or gun, chances triple shot per hit, arcane ice sword chances can ice per hit. or other skill chances like poison tic, can burned enemy, can fear, or maybe weapon have chances to disable to use skill for 3 sec.(just like old legendary weapon skill proc some have this skill)
also this kind of skill weapon can prevent combo too for your main skill.

sorry for my grammar but i hope you guys understand my point :)

[Tekila]

for me, i think we need new skill or new set of skill, instead of always have new proc for gear or weapon that always hard for dev to make balanced for each class,
why not make the skill more useful, like u can combo your skill from 1, 2 to 3 skill, then make something big impact or give high damage, aoe, heal or shield effects etc. for each class.
so maybe the stun,dodge, taunt, tick, reflect, etc make more useful too. (like u can cancel the combo when u get stun.)
then make the weapon/gear give some useful skill like in arcane bow or gun, chances triple shot per hit, arcane ice sword chances can ice per hit. or other skill chances like poison tic, can burned enemy, can fear, or maybe weapon have chances to disable to use skill for 3 sec.(just like old legendary weapon skill proc some have this skill)
also this kind of skill weapon can prevent combo too for your main skill.

sorry for my grammar but i hope you guys understand my point :)

I agree with you at a certain point.
Like having new skills could be great to balance the classes instead of giving it all in the weapons but I like the fact that gear procs and sets change completely your gameplay.
As an example getting a 5th active skill would up the game to a higher level but idk if the players are ready for that.
Also the possibility to combo proc things is just amazing gathering the game to next level also war with skull axe and aegis combo was really fun and squishy but something like combo skull axe and pola or nepta or saber would be great. Or combo dug dag and Pisces or Mariano. So we would have another perspective of gameplay that is based on combo proc like on mage.


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[Tekila]

I think that what I like the most is some haste and bonus damage proc. That you can pair with other things.


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